Anyone got some tips? [Archive]

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sleepyhead

3rd January 2006, 04:36

Hi guys! I origonally found lfs when i was 12, S1. I didn't like it much, it was too, hard... I found it again when i was 14 and i acctualy liked it. I thought i was starting to get pretty good, it felt like i was running good laps. I was keeping up with other racers for the most part. The problem is i can only get my Blackwood GP w/ GTI lap time down to 1:39.xx. I keep seeing people with 1:33.xx and sometimes lower. I had orriginaly used the mouse w/ keyboard then i switched to an xbox 360 controller, tommorow i'll hopefully be getting a DFP. My question is do you guys have any tips to inprove my lap times. I've already got a decent set-up. (my old one was really good but my computer had to be reimaged). Cheers-Ben.

P.S. happy new year to all!

Tweaker

3rd January 2006, 04:43

Ok Ben, well keyboard or a gamepad are the two hardest controls to use in the game. I know the Xbox controller might feel nice and all, but my guess is, the steering will be way too sensitive and you wouldn't be accurate enough.

Steering is by far the part you need to master to get around the track on the proper racing line.... but braking and accelerating just needs to be timed right so you start to break into a 'routine' (ie Brake Points, Turnin Points, etc). For what you have right now, I'd recommend using the mouse really, the mouse is the best alternative to a wheel. But it is up to you. If you are getting a DFP, then kudos to that, an excellent choice to get a wheel :up:

Once you get a wheel you should start to see your times improving, once you've had a good amount of practice with it.

If you really want to know what is making you get slow times, post a replay of you driving around Blackwood and we can check it out. Usually slow times are because of brake points and the driver being too careful. But it could be anything really. Just post a replay here, and also be sure to watch the Wolrd Record time in the GTi @ Blackwood (http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=12022) to learn the racing lines and techniques. (put in SPR folder and watch Single Player Replays). But don't get your hopes up too quickly, achieving a 1:31 is VERY hard.... but if you can get a 1:34 or 1:33, that is just fine for online racing :)

dontsimon

3rd January 2006, 05:54

I suppose it might help to read up racing techniques that are not exactly LFS related too. This (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving.shtml) site has some quite good tips.

I found the lesson on visual field (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_visualfield.shtml) to be particularly good: it suggests a simple way of visualising the track and specifically the corner procedure that makes you more consistant. It may well be a tip that many others use already, but I now try and use it in all sim racing.

I've looked for other online racing lessons but have found none. Hopefully we could drum up some more links. I persoanally just got this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0837602262/qid=1136271034/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-7714284-4269417) book for Christmas. Highly recommended, if perhaps a little too deep for us sim racers.

Good luck :)

axus

3rd January 2006, 07:26

TurnFast is awesome! I was just about to post a link to this before I saw dontsimon has already done so. The articles on cornering (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_cornering.shtml) (be sure to read these too - 1 (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_cornering_a.shtml), 2 (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_cornering_b.shtml) - they are on finding the right line through a series of corners) are excellent. :thumb: Good luck - a DFP is an excellent wheel, I hope you get it. I started racing LFS when I was 14 and in half a year (I didn't even know how to drive at the time, so it took a lot of learning) I got my PB quite low on BL1 GTi. It shouldn't really take that long, especially in S2 because the feedback is better than ever. Just make sure you read up on articles about the racing line, braking techniques (downshifting too - downshift in the braking zones and not out of the corners), throttle control etc. Also be sure to try out the Training courses - they are excellent. Once you get a pro rating on all of the GTi ones, getting your PB down is easy. I would make some replays of driving the courses with a PRO rating for you but you wouldn't be able to watch them because you are a demo user and cannot use the layout editor. Welcome aboard!

sleepyhead

4th January 2006, 03:04

Woz

4th January 2006, 05:40

He guys thanks for the tips, i'll do some hot lapping and post a replay tommorw. The wheel is great, however i think my lap times are getting worse now with the wheel, i think i just got to get use to it. Cya.

The DFP will help you loads. Its all practice from now on.

here are some tips for the wheel.

1) Get the Wingman drivers for the wheel. This will let you run the pedals split axis and adjust the lock.
2) Set the lock to 720deg and wheel comp in LFS to 1. The wheel lock will now always match the lock of the car you are in.
3) Learn to be subtle with your right foot.

Have fun

sleepyhead

4th January 2006, 16:59

here's the replay, i got a little messy on the last corner of the third lap.

NotAnIllusion

4th January 2006, 17:46

Looks like you have a decent setup, and there's nothing wrong with your steering :) You need to use much more of the track though, and catch the apexes better. For example in T1, go well to the left so you brake on to or very close to the kerb, and turn in to catch the apex at about 46, 47 mph (75 kph) in 2nd.

Flat-out through the chicane and drive over the right kerb entering, use its shape to help you turn through it. You take T3 well, at the end of the back straight, but don't shift to 2nd. You can do it on 3rd.

Carry more speed into the long esses, about 71 mph (115 kph) and turn in early so you catch a lot of the right kerb. If you turn too much or early you might roll, but adjusting from there is better than going wide.

Penultimate corner is in 3rd, at about 67 mph (108 kph), make sure you turn enough to get some kerb, if you go wide there you will get loads of understeer and have to slow down a lot.

Upon exiting the penultimate, go early to the far right all the way as close to the grass as you can and keep in 3rd. Keep on accelerating until just before you turn in. Release the gas, turn in catching the apex and apply gas when you're sure you won't go wide. You can do this in 3rd at about 70 mph (113 kph)

Have another look at the WR SPR posted earlier on and study the lines, brake & acceleration points. It's probably best you attempt to emulate such driving with just a bit slower speeds and braking, say, 25-50 meters before to make sure you have enough time to turn in.

axus

4th January 2006, 17:56

1. Use the whole track - this is important! You often come into a corner from the middle of the track. This is a no-no. You should come in as wide as possible. Theoretically, the quickest speed around a corner can be taken when using the line with the greatest radius. The square of the velocity you take through a corner is directly proportional to the radius. However, because corner exit speed is more important than cornering speed (the straights are longer than the corners) you need to apex a little past the mid-point of the corner. This is generally achieved with slightly later entry. This image (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_images/cornering2.gif) shows it very well. As a general rule, a more high-speed corner will need a later apex than a low-speed corner. Use every last bit of tarmac on that track when coming into a corner - rumble strips included (the blue and white things), as well as the green thing on the outside of the straight after the long straight. Into the last corner you need to use the tarmac on the outside of the rumble strip and go right to the outside by the grass to get a good line.

2. Apex - if you find yourself going through a corner and you are in the middle of the track the whole way through, then you have something wrong. You must come to the inside of the track a little past the mid-point of the corner.

3. Let the car run wide out of corners. Try to use every last bit of track out of corners too - tarmac anyway. Some of the rumble strips on the exit of corners can slow you down. Hitting the one on the exit of the hairpin will unbalance your car into the chicane. Generally, if there isn't another corner soon after and the car can rebalance itself, its is good to use the rumble strips on the exit. The only ones not worth using on blackwood with the GTi are the ones on the exit of the hairpin and the first chicane.

4. The curbs (the blue and white things on the inside of corners) don't bite. You should attack the ones in the first chicane much harder - that chicane is easily flat out in the XF GTi. The ones in the second chicane are also usable. There are some curbs that you shouldn't touch though - the one in the hairpin is a bit sharp and will unbalance your car, and the one in the last corner will 9 times out of 10 make your car roll. The ones in the corner at the end of the back straight and the second last corner need the softest touch so you just go on them for less than a second. They look something like this: _/ - only go on the flatter bit.

5. Work on your line around corners first, then you will be able to get fast cornering speeds in the bends - you will soon feel it if the line you are on can give much more cornering speed than you are using.

6. Your setup doesn't look that great - first of all it is on road normal tyres. The ones used in the world record are hybrids. Sounds strange at first, I know - rally tyres on tarmac but they are a very soft compound and grip very well with the right setup. They tend to overheat after a few laps at the front of the XF GTi if you are pushing though, so racing setups run hybrids only at the back. Hotlapping/qualifying setups use them at the front too. I will attach two setups I use - the world record setup (it is on the Inferno Setupfield (http://setupfield.teaminferno.hu/)) and my own setup based on that one for longer races. The qualy setup is maybe about half a second faster than the race setup. If the qualy setup is a little too tail-happy, use the race setup for everything at first.

7. Go online and try to follow one of the faster cars around the track once you have a good line. When you start getting close to a good time watch the world record replay again, closely observing it and seing where you can improve.

8. Make mental notes of braking points (use the corner markers on the outside of corners where you brake for this - turn one is 2 car lenghts after 100m for me, the first chicane is flat out, the turn at the end of the back straight is a car lenght before 100m, the second chicane is a car lenght before the turn-in point, the second last corner is a car lenght before 50m, and I dont brake in the last corner but lift the throttle to ~50% a bit before the turn-in point and put it flat again after I apex - these will be a little difficult for you to match for now because you don't have a good line through the corners and they will slow you down more than anything). Also make mental notes of turn-in points and apex points - use track features to do this. Corner exit points aren't that difficult if you get the turn-in point and the apex right. This is the only way to be consistent.

EDIT: 9. Use a manual gearbox if you are not - it is not that bad once you get the hang of it. It will also help a bit if you turn off "Throttle cut on upshift" under player, but that's just getting nit-picky for .2s.

Post some more replays again when you feel you are driving on a good line so we can tell you where you are going wrong.

sleepyhead

4th January 2006, 18:27

well i used some of your tips and i got it down to a 1:37.47. I'm gonna go back for more and post another replay later. Thanks!

axus

4th January 2006, 18:52

Good to hear... :thumb: can you post a replay of some of your laps from after the tips?

MrGrumpy

4th January 2006, 19:14

Great tips here fellas, thanks.

I'll be having a good read through them and practicing too.

sleepyhead

5th January 2006, 02:47

here's a replay of my lap after the tips. I used one of the WR setups. thanks guys.

mrodgers

5th January 2006, 03:33

I watched your first replay and was going to say, and I mean absolutely NO offense by this, but, I thought man, he doesn't have a clue (yet). That was pretty good improvement on the second replay, especially in the chicane. Some people pick it up immediately, then some people, like me, takes a while to get it. Just keep practicing, and go ahead and jump online. That's where you improve the fastest. Just remember, if you aren't that fast, just be curtious to the other drivers and keep out of the way. Like everyone else up there ^^ said, the most important thing is to use the entire race track, moving from outside next to curb, to tight to the apex, to letting it drifting back out to the curb again. It will take a while, but soon something will click with the braking and corner turn-ins and it eventually comes automatic. When you get to the point where you no longer have to think about where to brake and turn, then you worry about your times. I wouldn't worry about times until then.

A few other tips, do you have "throttle cut on upshift" and "throttle blip on downshift" turned on? ( it is in the "player" menu) I leave the "blip" on, but turn the "lift" off. It begins to feel more natural if you actually lift the throttle yourself when you shift. And during braking, even if you have the "blip" turned on, you can still blip it more yourself, downshift a bit higher in the revs than you are now to get some engine braking effect. I don't do that for all cars, but for the GTi, I do.

Another, turn 1 is the only place where you need 2nd gear. Slow down, down to 2nd, take that turn and when you straighten out a bit to line up for the chicane, floor it. Don't lag in 2nd past the left curb of the chicane, I shift to 3rd right there. I think the key going through the chicane is to anticipate the weight transfer and turn the steering wheel slightly early as you transition at the left curb shifting into 3rd and exiting. At least that's my feeling of moving through there. All other turns, get it in your mind to hit them in 3rd. Saw you bump it down to 2nd for a few of them. Of course, if you push the front out scrubbing off too much speed, then, yea, you need to bump down to 2nd, but on a good lap, then go 3rd for everything but T1.

Good luck, and if more new guys would just stop and ask for help, then this would be a better place rather than many of the new guys blowing through other's as they totally miss the corners.

sleepyhead

5th January 2006, 06:04

i keep noticing in the second chicane and the last few corners that my car seems to slide a bit much. I can feel the wheel go numb until the front wheels regain grip. How do i keep the car from oversteering mid corner.

NotAnIllusion

5th January 2006, 06:15

It's really down to turning smoothly. Your rear will slide if you make quick and big turns. Try to go through the corner with as little steering input as you possibly can. That is also how you find speed, the less you turn the less speed you lose. Smoothness comes from using all the track, hence having to turn less steeply.

Have a look at the cornering picture posted somewhere above and see how all the track is used. Try to realize the amount of steering input required to make that turn. Now using the same picture, imagine the car is approaching the corner in the middle of the track at the same speed. To make the same turn you will have to 1) slow down more, 2) turn more and 3) hence either try to avoid understeer or oversteer resulting from the entrance to the corner.

Another thing that helps with preventing oversteer is being smooth in the transition between brake or no-throttle and full throttle states. If you just slam the gas the force resulting from a more sudden weight transfer is more likely to cause your car to slide too much.

[Thief]G(o)A

5th January 2006, 09:06

Maybe this should be a sticky? Some really good tips here
:thumb:

fujiwara

5th January 2006, 15:24

i run mostly on this combo (Blackwood and XF GTI), and is a nice combination once you get fast.

the tips i can give are:
1. don't play with keyboard, i'm saying this because i play and i know how hard i found it to keep improving and to stay consistent, use mouse or a wheel.
2. Turn off the brake help, the throttle help.
3. Use Automatic Heel and Toe (try to learn the theory first, then do it manually, it really shorts the braking distances)
4. Try to use Manual clutch
5. See other people replays, don't watch the faster times, watch the guys that are making 1 sec. faster than you and then do some copy cat.
6. Watch your lines and breaking points - this is very important

if you'll manage this, time around 1.34.xx, 1.33.xx will come soon...

cya.

sleepyhead

5th January 2006, 18:32

How do i use the clutch. right now i have it set-up to a button the the wheel. Where should i assign it to put it in easy reach. Do all of you have a seperate clutch pedal? For now i'm gonna continue to use the sequential method.

NotAnIllusion

5th January 2006, 21:06

When I drive road cars with my wheel I set it up like so (probably unique for me though).. Stick shifter for gears and the left paddle for clutch. Not sure if the DFP has paddles, if it doesn't, yeah I think you'll have to use a button on the wheel for it.

spankmeyer

6th January 2006, 01:19

Here's a receipe for a cheap-ass clutch pedal that still works like a dream after the DFP pedals have died and died again during the past months.

My wheel setup is Logitech's Driving Force Pro with its pedals as acceleration/brake. I cracked open my second-hand Microsoft non-FF wheel and removed the circuit board inside. I simply cut the wires connecting the actual wheel potentiometres to the board, connected the pedals to the circuit board with it's own plug and connected the circuit board to my comp through USB-connection... AND IT WORKED LIKE A CHARM! So bottom line is this, you don't have to spend a fortune on ACT Labs 3-pedal thingie when you can make your own 4-pedal über-guerrilla system for about 30 euros! :) A few pics:
http://www.burningfetus.com/temp/pedals/underside.jpg
http://www.burningfetus.com/temp/pedals/cable.jpg

NeilPearson

6th January 2006, 02:06

The DFP has tiny paddle-buttons. They're less than the width of two fingers and they move about 3mm, and sometimes I accidentally shift twice because they suck, and then I spin, and it sucks. It's the crappiest part of the wheel tbh and it bothers me intensely.

Yeah its wierd considering the momo racing has those huge awsome paddles on it, yet the DFP has those shitty little buttons :(

travbrad

6th January 2006, 06:17

The DFP has tiny paddle-buttons. They're less than the width of two fingers and they move about 3mm, and sometimes I accidentally shift twice because they suck, and then I spin, and it sucks. It's the crappiest part of the wheel tbh and it bothers me intensely.

I accidentally double-shift fairly often with my DFP too. That can be really bad during downshifting, since it can spin your car. Everything else about the wheel/pedals is great though.

sleepyhead

7th January 2006, 04:11

Vendetta

7th January 2006, 04:13

Heres something that helped me shave a bit of time off my time. After the turn coming off the straight, theirs a chicane (s-turn). Dont use your brakes at all for it, just simply let off the gas and glide in, than once pass the apex of the first corner of the chicane, full throttle :)

bbuck

7th January 2006, 04:31

This has to be a sticky great stuff!:thumb:

csimpok

7th January 2006, 11:15

Damn. Now i can't get it under 1:37.xx 1:38's ussualy. I have dosens of set-ups so that's not the problem. will a manual clutch really help. maybe i just need more practice. anyways thanks for the help guys.

Manual Clutch gives you max 0,15 second advantage (if you don't mess up the shifting :) so that won't change the world for you.
Somebody said WR sets use Hybryds in the front too. It was true in the past but nowadays WR sets have Normals in the front, Hybryds in the back. The 31,54 set is perfect for a 5 lap race, the 31,64 set is good for longer races too.
And 1 more thing: You have to use brakes only 3 times in a lap.

fujiwara

7th January 2006, 12:33

do you have Auto Gear Shit set to Yes?
if so the car won't run good at all...the car shift really slow and delays the throttle.
if this is not the scenario, then you possibly braking to much in the corners.
like csimpok said you only need to brake in 3 spots(1st chicane, long strait, 1st corner of the 3rd sector).
try not to slide the car too much, you lose a lot when sliding, it's fun but not effective.

fujiwara

7th January 2006, 15:39

Yo Stig, don't take me wrong, but i was watching your replay and i this is my advice:

1. Your lines are bad (this is extremely important), you run a lot in the middle of the road.
2. You brake too long, and shift down unnecessary in a few corners.

Now, running in the middle of the road will make you turn bad and lose a lot of speed.
this is what i advice:

Get a replay of a low 1.34.xx player,hsi lines are good by this time, there's plenty on lfsworld.com.
Watch his lines, braking points and shift changes -- this is a must do --
If you want be more precise, you can even compare your line with the others player's line, download AnalyzeForSpeed and read
the instructions.

I should point you that this game is not like other game you might ever played,
in other racing games, fps, etc you learn the game quickly, i strongly belive that this game needs to be understood
and requires a high curve of adaptation.

With the latest setups, this is my advice (you can improve the speeds once you get used to the game:

Reach the apex of the first corner in 2nd at least at 70kmh
When reaching the chicane, step in each apex of the chicane, by the 2nd you must in 3rd gear already (should be)
Now you are the in log strait, when you're about to reach the 100m sign start to brake, shift to 3rd gear,
step in the apex at least at 105kmh, stay at the left side, close to the sand (but not run into it), since you're new
it's better to brake before enter the S(you just need a little little brake, nothing more), alwais steping in the kerbs.
After leaving the kerbs take the car the right, and when the 3º sector begins, start pulling to the left(alwais the most close you can to the grass, sand)
Brake, shit down to 3rd gear and step in the apex at least at 100kmh(try to brake on the most dark zone of the kerb).
Let the car go to the left, then gently bring the car to the most right possible.
You're now in the last corner and before the ending of the kerb you must already turning to the last corner,
and since you're new, here again brake a little, you're still in 3rd gear, enter this last corner at 105-108kmhs if possible, alwais staying
close to the kerbs, first the left one, then the right one.

This the most i can offer to you.
Practice, Watch, Learn, Improve.

cya.

sleepyhead

7th January 2006, 16:59

I finnaly got a 1:35! thanks guys. I used a WR set-up and i am using sequential shifting. Here's is the replay. third lap online.

axus

7th January 2006, 17:10

Congrats!! :thumb: Keep at it - consistency and 1:32's soon. :)

mrodgers

7th January 2006, 20:25

Good job. I downloaded and will watch the replay later :thumb: .

MRSisson

8th January 2006, 13:26

Concentrate on driving the correct line around the track, first and foremost. Turn in at the correct place, hit that apex(!).

Exits to corners are some of the most important gains to a lap time. You need to be at the fastest possible speed going down that next straight into your next brake zone.

Heavy threshhold/brake turning is the thing to work on last, as it is the thing that will gain you those last tenths to wring out of a lap time.

Don't try so hard to get WR laps. Almost all of my best times in various sims has come when I am not even thinking about going as fast as fast possible.

Be smooth with every input : steer smooth, gas smooth, brake smooth.

These are some of the things that work for me.

(And save your first replay for posterity. Look at it in a year or two and enjoy a good laugh. :) )

AtomAnt

9th January 2006, 14:25