Clutch, still!

[Dandy Dust]

hi out there devs! :smileypul

Wow, how I like LFS!
After 200.000kms I have to state something:

The clutch thingy (weather realistic or not) has
not improved the game.

I just had a 45lap lague race with the GTR class
in South City Long (City Liga)

Well, I was aware of a possible clutch problem
from the beginning, but whatever You do, in
this combo the clutch can only go hotter, not
cool down. :scratchch

It should become more "controlable" like the
tyre - temperature, which I can influence quiet
a bit.

If anything I wish from the developers then:

Make LFS a racing game again, rather then a
"beware of the clutch" - trail. :really:

Greetings, Dandy Dust (Team Zone 30):tilt:

[JO53PHS]

I don't see why some people can't change gear without frying up the clutch :shrug:

[niall09]

hmm,
that post was
rather hard to
read. Can you see
what I am
saying?

Ok, enough of that. Which of the GTR cars were you racing? Are you sure you were shifting correctly? ie, lifting a little bit before each shift?

Personally, I have never really had any trouble with the clutch in LFS, and when I do, it cools down at a nice pace.

[jasonmatthews]

Got to say I agree with you there mate. In the recent IGTC (FZR) race my teamate got hit, tried to recover, clutch burnt out. 6 Laps he had to wait on the side. He didn't do anything crazy when recovering. I have heard from alot of real life racers that there is no way a real clutch would overheat in less than 1 second..... It has seriously ruined alot of GTR races. I would be interested to hear from anyone who drives these cars for real if I am wrong. It's also the same with the SS cars. One spin and your clutch is gone.

[Mazz4200]

hmm, that post was rather hard to read. Can you see what I am saying?
I thought it was a poem.

[Woz]

....

sigh.... Just learn to drive with mechanical sympathy. You know, like a REAL race driver has to.

Why is this still coming up. If you mash the clutch, drive with lead feet or otherwise do not drive correctly you will cause damage to your car in some way.

Got to say I agree with you there mate. In the recent IGTC (FZR) race my teamate got hit, tried to recover, clutch burnt out. 6 Laps he had to wait on the side. He didn't do anything crazy when recovering. I have heard from alot of real life racers that there is no way a real clutch would overheat in less than 1 second..... It has seriously ruined alot of GTR races. I would be interested to hear from anyone who drives these cars for real if I am wrong. It's also the same with the SS cars. One spin and your clutch is gone.

A race clutch is not heavy duty at all to save weight in the car. A road clutch can take more abuse. Knowing that would you like me to come and show you how I can burn out the clutch in your road car in seconds? (You will have to foot the repair bill BTW lol)

Race drivers NEVER abuse the clutch or the car. Their JOB is to keep the car going for the race and if they need to nurse the car they will.

[Gil07]

Got to say I agree with you there mate. In the recent IGTC (FZR) race my teamate got hit, tried to recover, clutch burnt out. 6 Laps he had to wait on the side. He didn't do anything crazy when recovering. I have heard from alot of real life racers that there is no way a real clutch would overheat in less than 1 second..... It has seriously ruined alot of GTR races. I would be interested to hear from anyone who drives these cars for real if I am wrong. It's also the same with the SS cars. One spin and your clutch is gone.

Jason, from watching the replay, he started accelerating from standstill again in 4th (IIRC), burning the clutch. Sounds about right... He then kept on the throttle, finally burning it off...

[WizardHat]

The only car I have any clutch problems with is the FBM, and even then that's when I'm not concentrating on my shift timing.

Personally I think the clutch is pretty decent how it is, if you can't drive without frying it you might want to work on the way you're going about your shifts.

[Bawbag]

It's true though, in the eTM we drive the FZR and even on tracks like AS GP doing a pitstop allways overheats the clutch, just from pulling out of the pitbox. Our last race was at South City and the pitstops were stupid, in this round the pitstops were obviously much worse, some people had about 30-40% clutch heat.

I like the idea of the clutch heat but on some cars it's to extreme and should be fixed.

[CobraDrifter]

Yeah..I got massive clutch problem on XF GTR...This clutch overheat so easy when I'm driving this car.I gotta ask something: Does anyone ever heard of someone losing a race because of clutch overheating in real life?If not...why some people do in LFS?

[wien]

Less driver skill in LFS is part of it, but yes I have heard of someone retiring with a fried clutch in real life. Especially in higher powered touring car championships without fancy gearboxes and aids (Australian V8 Supercars for instance) this is prone to happen.

[SamH]

I'm having no major problems with the clutch heat. The only thing I've had to change is to get into the routine of checking the heat every now and again - but since I'm already checking tyre temps, I got into the routine to check the clutch at the same time. I've found that changing the way I shift easily fixes potential problems and heat management is a doddle (at the cost of overall speed, granted).

That said, I don't think the clutch is right yet. There doesn't seem to be any differentiation between light surface heat and "deep heat", for lack of a better term.. and therefore there doesn't seem to be a difference between sitting heavily on the clutch and sitting lightly on it. For example, sitting on the clutch on a very slight incline should not overheat the clutch as much as sitting on a steep incline, when maintaining a stationary position. While the rotational speed difference between the plates may be the same, the pressure on the plates is different. However, in LFS it seems to be the amount of *time* slipping the clutch, not *pressure* on it which is generating the heat in this model. Gentle use of the clutch on pit exit should not cause the problems it does now.

I'm not complaining.. it's brought a new dimension to racing. When you understand how the model works, you can work within its confines. But I look forward to the model changing a little, and being a bit more realistic :)

[dawesdust_12]

Wait... people have issues with the clutch?! THe only issues I've had were in IGTC practice, where I spun and just said piss it and laid on the throttle. Even me flatshifting the FZR for about 25 laps around KY2 didn't give me any ill effects. I dunno, I still have no issues with it, unless I really try.

[PAracer]

Rev up and get em spinning. Not to say you need to peel out, but just spin untill your moving a few clicks, then breathe out and gas it. That will keep you from slipping the clutch too much.

[luftrofl]

If you have problems with burning up the clutch in any car, you are simply a bad driver.

While I do think that the clutch burns a little too easily, I also think that constant poor shifting during a "45lap lague race" will lead to clutch failure.

Edit: I'd like to mention that I really like the fact that the current clutch system really hurts those who can't shift properly.

[SamH]

If you have problems with burning up the clutch in any car, you are simply a bad driver.
I wouldn't say they're "a bad driver", but since it is well known that the damage can be minimised to the point of irrelevence (as PAracer describes), I'd say that they are "slow to adapt".

[March Hare]

I use autoclutch. Only time it overheats is when I try to fry it. Even if I redline the clutch, it only takes a few laps of carefull shifting to get it back to normal temperature.

Replays of your clutch malfunctions would be interesting viewing material. Or maybe you are too ashamed to show us how bad shifters you are?

[nisskid]

i actually dont mind the clutch the feature, i cant really compare it to heavy duty clutches as im not stupid enough to drive in a way which would burn them out in real life, but with a less heavy duty clutches, ive seen clutches go pretty bloody quick, even in cars with low amounts of torque. if u shift properly u wont have any issues.

[AstroBoy]

Ive never had a major problem with my clutch unless i was mucking around then i did. Ive fried it during a pitstop once by revving throughout the entire pit stop, i learnt my lesson from that.
Though some cars are worse then others, but adds a new angle to LFS that other games dont have.

[Bob Smith]

During shifting, the clutch heat is no problem unless I try to abuse it. If I try, I can melt a clutch in three shifts.

Pulling away is the issue - if I'm driving bad/get unlucky and have to pit two times within a few laps, 4 laps of 50% throttle ensue. I think Sam raised a very good point, although I've not done any testing to really confirm his idea.

[Woz]

All the people that believe the clutch cooks too quick. Post a replay of your driving along with your setup.

I bet for most of you it will be that your 1st is geared too high, pulling away in wrong gear or you just slip the clutch too much.

I can take any of the GTR cars to the straight on BL and do 5+ full race starts from still through to 3rd back to back and still not cook or get any real temp into the clutch. I just don't understand how you do it.

Edit: I'd like to mention that I really like the fact that the current clutch system really hurts those who can't shift properly.

Same here. Can't wait for all the other abuse type damage to get implemented :)

[March Hare]

Same here. Can't wait for all the other abuse type damage to get implemented :)
lfs is SUCK!!1!1111


no gerbox brakesoeesily IRL!!!1
i can drove hole day wiw my car no breka
brung bak aptch Y!!111!!1!!11
[/whiny "racer"]

Think, how many such threads will come in the future :D

[Stigpt]

I just cant wait for drivetrain/gearbox damage for too aggressive downshifts (really.. downshifting INTO the change up rev-zone?), steering failures caused by contact, tyres jumping off rims via too low pressure, etc. :D

I flatshift nearly all cars all the time.. no problem (except in very few exceptions).
Burned cluthch? How about you exit pits without doing it with your foot on the floor? Try easing out of the pits like... REAL DRIVERS DO?

How bout hitting the clutch/neutral when you crash or when you spin, instead of spinning around at 200kph with the gas pedal on the floor and in 6th gear? Or pulling away in 1st gear instead of 5th?

If you use auto-clutch, you'll be slipping the clutch for 30 seconds on a 490hp engine, what did you expect? I'd expect a busted tranny, not just a melted clutch. Do YOU start your RL car in 4th gear and then floor the accelerator and release slowly the clutch to get going? You try to do that twice, then send me the repair bill, ok?

[Speed Soro]

People who defend this error is just doing nothing to contribute to development of the game.

The clutch is wrong designed and period.

Point me something in the real racing world that behaves like this. There is not.

I used to considered LFS the most amazing simulation I could drive, but after the magnific clutch project I saw me obligated to use automatic gears, and the immersion went away a bit.

The clutch is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with the way I drive.

I'm not so fast like the top-master-ets on the net, but I drive well and I know how to change gears, with or without autoclutch.

This behavior is wrong. Once it get red there is no way to back to orange.

The ammount of waste is absurd too. Where in the real world there is so weak clutch?

Clutch are made to resist hard work, under high temperatures, high degree of slipage and high acceleration, positive and negative.

Scawen should put his proud aside once in a while and go back to old format, at least it was driveable.

The complaint proceeds, and I know a lot of top racers that are using autogears cause that.

[Jakg]

The complaint proceeds, and I know a lot of top racers that are using autogears cause that.LOL.

I think your way off there...

[SamH]

The complaint proceeds, and I know a lot of top racers that are using autogears cause that.
Names or it's bull. Spit 'em out.

[Dajmin]

Maybe I'm just totally amazing (that'd be the day) but I actually have trouble TRYING to burn the clutch. I can't consistently do it when I'm messing around, and I've certainly never done it in a race - how the hell do you guys manage it so easily?

[AndroidXP]

...I think you just suck. So do so-called "top racers" who use automatic gearchange. :tilt:

[frokki]

This behavior is wrong. Once it get red there is no way to back to orange.I don't know if the clutch cools too slowly, because I've never overheated a clutch to a point that it slips in real life. But I suspect that it would not cool down if it slips and generates more heat, causing it to slip more, generating more heat...

People who defend this error is just doing nothing to contribute to development of the game.

Scawen should put his proud aside once in a while and go back to old format, at least it was driveable.And how would just scrapping evertyhing archieved contribute to developement? Or complaining without any arguments other than "it's wrong". Provide Scawen some arguments or data, and he'll surely work around the problem if there is one.

The instant overheating when spinning feels quite strange though, but once again, I've never spun my car on high speed on tarmac while keeping the throttle floored, so how could I know?

[_--NZ--_[HUN]]

I don't see how some people can destroy the clutch, they must be doing something wrong. The clutch is not perfect but with a little common sense it won't be destroyed in a few laps. I can drive FZR for hours and it's really rare that the clutch heats to the point where it slips. I have to flatshift for a few laps to heat the clutch that much. I wouldn't call anyone a top racer who can't drive a car with clutch and H-shifter. If clutch and H-shifter is not an option then I suggest binding a button to the clutch and using that when the car spins.

[Bob Smith]

This behavior is wrong. Once it get red there is no way to back to orange.
Of course there is. Just don't slip the clutch. Which, once the bar is sufficiently red, means not using full throttle.

[DarkTimes]

I agree the clutch needs improving in general, but I honestly have never burnt one out when racing. I can see how it might happen in an extreme situation (like our car in the IGTC), but I don't understand how people do it so easily when racing normally. I don't know anyone in my team or who I race with regularly who has this problem, and they are all fast and experienced drivers. I say people need to reassess their driving style to be honest.

[ACCAkut]

I can't understand how people manage to fry the clutch that easy. I mean, I'm a rubbish driver, look at my laptimes and stuff, but my clutch in normal race never gets hotter than 2mm in green. Even in FZR and FBM. And I don't have a clutch pedal, just heel&toeing at the right time:shrug:

Only think that fries it for me is keeping on the gas when spinning out.

[The Radness]

Maybe I'm just totally amazing (that'd be the day) but I actually have trouble TRYING to burn the clutch. I can't consistently do it when I'm messing around, and I've certainly never done it in a race - how the hell do you guys manage it so easily?


Maybe you got one of the good clutchpacks? :scratchch

j/k.

I have had a few issues (in FBM), but maybe I shouldn't have spun out in the first place:shrug:. I personally like it. It even field between people who use clutch, and people with autogears(no shift delay).

[Bawbag]

If you have problems with burning up the clutch in any car, you are simply a bad driver.

While I do think that the clutch burns a little too easily, I also think that constant poor shifting during a "45lap lague race" will lead to clutch failure.

Edit: I'd like to mention that I really like the fact that the current clutch system really hurts those who can't shift properly.


Have a look at all these bad drivers, nubs.

http://www.esport-racing.com/replays/17_2ietm3.mpr

;)

[Dandy Dust]

Hi there! :smileypul

First: I´m very impressed by the number and quality
of most replies! :thumb:

Just to name it: I drove FZR on SO4 and experienced
the clutches burnout in about lap 25.

If I think of my setup I get the feeling that I break
with the engine a tiny little bit too much (not like mad!), because I tend to drive on soft brakes to
save tyres an because I tend to overbreak, as my
tutours found out... :thumbsup:

Somebody also wrote, that there is practically no chance of "escaping" the pitstop without overheating
the clutch.

What I also want to stress on is, that I cannot cool
it down in SO4/FZr for example, even if I drive much
much slower.

Spinning, (especially tough when not Your own fault) might also easyly ruin the (longrun-) race.

Statements that just say, "if Your clutch overheat,
that because You are a bad driver" and "this clutch
behaviour is particulary realistic" I find a little bit
shallow, especially in a game, where only 3 to 4
cars a "realistic" models, the rest fantasy...

Besides the FBW (which I learnd to handle quiet well), what is the "reality" of a FZR car?

ONE other point: I NEVER see any racedrivers car stop unmanouverable, when I watch
races (on TV). I know these people mostly drive well, but would the problem not just
occure more frequently, if it was a typical racing problem.
Oil temperature, water and engine overheating, YES.
Brakes explode from heat!
But clutches, I never hear of a clutch explode or giving up...

BESIDES THAT: Unfortunately I get a sense of
chauvinistic behaviour and expression of some
native english speakers in this and I have to state
many other internet forum, which put a bad light
on those figures attitudes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by niall09 http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=762736#post762736)
hmm, that post was rather hard to read. Can you see what I am saying?

I thought it was a poem.

[Neblaivas]

I can't even burn it in race with cars i drive :D ofc if some noob spin and keep throttle its easy (how can clutch hold if you going 100kmh backwards and trying to go forward in 5,6 gear)

[evilgeek]

i only have 2 pedals, so i use button clutch. launching from a dead stop i bring the revs about half way to the red line, then give nearly full throttle as i pop the clutch. the tires usually spin a bit, but the most clutch heat i ever see is one or two pixels of orange.

if i had a 3rd pedal i would probably still launch in a similar way. there has to be some slipping, somewhere, and erring on the side of spinning the tires will definitely save the clutch.

[AndroidXP]

Okay, I've now made some tests on the FZR specifically. Taking one of the inferno setups, it seems to be rather easy to overheat the clutch with multiple pitstop takeoffs, especially if the clutch temp has already 3-4 orange pixels to begin with.

However, as I've found, this is completely down to the setup. When you shorten the first gear just a bit, so it doesn't go to 105+ km/h and instead only to 80-90km/h, the takeoff problem vanishes completely. With that ratio I can do clean 4-6k rpm takeoffs all day, even nasty full throttle takeoffs take quite a long time to get the clutch red - many more times than you'd ever do in a race in such a short timespan.

So dear troubled FZR racers, do you think you'll be able to adapt this complex change, or will you continue to blame the clutch modelling for the problems your ridiculously long first gear causes? :smileypul ;)

[tonyonparas]

This is yet another pointless thread of arguing. And guess what! ..its about the clutch...:really:
Can´t you people understand that it´s now part of the game. You can´t just rumble and spank the car to the limit, as you could before.
I think that the clutch is great, it really is good for them, who can drive fast and clean without problems.:thumbsup:
And someone said that "1 spin and the clutch is out" or something.. LOL!!!:D

[The Moose]

So dear troubled FZR racers, do you think you'll be able to adapt this complex change, or will you continue to blame the clutch modelling for the problems your ridiculously long first gear causes? :smileypul ;)

LOL :thumb:

Well said that man:nod:


Some people are going to just have to face the fact that their driving need to improve. It is not a problem with the sim.

The FZR is no more of a problem than any other car, not that any of them are a problem ;)

The only time I've burned the clutch was in a big shunt and i didn't get the clutch in quick enough.

I sure as hell haven't ever burned it taking off from the grid or a pitstop, and I've done plenty of 'em.

[Bladerunner]

Just to try and prove/disprove this for my own satisfaction, I tried 80 laps of SO3 in a XFR,
I buggered the tyres completely during this stint, but the clutch stayed cool and functional throughout..was just as healthy at the finish as at the start.
I am by no means fast..I cant even get good 'benchmark' times with this combo..was running an average 40/41 second lap.
I chose this combo because it has a LOT of gear changes and bumps, so would be really punishing (in theory!)

If you have a problem with the clutch, I suggest googling for the add-on pack "skillz 2.0" or "driving technique 3.5 beta"...this just might help you!

[Dandy Dust]

Hi!

Can someone please write a clutch - monitoring
tool, so that the driver can learn in which situation
he would do how much damage to the clutch for
what ever reason...:really:

[AndroidXP]

Just open the F9 menu and watch the clutch temp? Or analyse the replay after a long race, to see where most heat was generated?

[Woz]

People who defend this error is just doing nothing to contribute to development of the game.

Wahahahahahaha its not fair!!! (cry cry cry)

As I said earlier. If you believe its wrong POST A REPLAY AND YOUR SETUP!

I bet, as stated earlier, that your first gear is too tall and also that you slip it too much. You probably engine brake too hard as well.

Do you honestly believe that real drivers mash the controls as much? lol

Watch an aussie V8 drivers foot cam. In low gears it can take 2+ seconds for them to slowley feed in the power after a gear change. Most drivers in lfs believe they should be able to just keep their foot planted.

So come on then... PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS...

POST A REPLAY!

[AlienT.]

I hear a lot of people complaining about various things since Y came out. I don't undestand this? it must be my driving style but I can't really tell too much difference :shrug: Ok i've had my FZR clutch burn during pitting, but after a few practises it is manageable. Maybe it depends on the controller input? I have a wheel a with clutch pedal etc, maybe there is a problem with mouse or keyboard users, not sure really.

[_--NZ--_[HUN]]

I hear a lot of people complaining about various things since Y came out. I don't undestand this? it must be my driving style but I can't really tell too much difference :shrug: Ok i've had my FZR clutch burn during pitting, but after a few practises it is manageable. Maybe it depends on the controller input? I have a wheel a with clutch pedal etc, maybe there is a problem with mouse or keyboard users, not sure really.

I use manual clutch even when I'm racing with mouse and keyboard, and it never caused me a problem, a lot better than autoclutch because I decide when to use it and obviously I don't use it to start the car in 4th gear after a spin.

[March Hare]

...
And their set.

What the hell is it with guys who burn their clutches? All of you say it's the games fault and has no part what so ever in how you drive.

Come on! How can most VERY fast people drive without heating the clutch? Even us slowpokes can drive without burning it!

I can't burn the effing clutch in a race and I use the bleeding AUTOCLUTCH!

Own up! You just can't shift for shit.

[Speed Soro]

forget

[_--NZ--_[HUN]]

Try this with LFS and lets see how long the clutch goes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oKy6QezZts8&mode=related&search

But I believe I'm totally wrong, cause LFS is perfect and has nothing more to improve.

Fan boys... tsctsctsc

Nobody said LFS is perfect. People here only said that if you know how to setup and drive a car you won't have a lot of problems.

[AlienT.]

forget

LOL, I saw it before you deleted it.

I actually really like GTL although my heel an toe sucks like mad. I have noticed that the set ups make much more difference to the handling of the cars in GTL than they do in LFS.....took me bloody ages before I could break and shift gear down without spinning the car. GTL made me appreciate and learn setting adjsutments really well and as such it has improved me in LFS.

Reference that video you posted it would be no problems driving LFS like that without clutch fry, just check out some similar you tube vids with people doing heel and toe technique.

All hale king of the Ford mustangs :)

[March Hare]

I watched the video posted by Speed Soro. Or not posted.

I'm much more aggressive with the throtle. Still my clutch stays cool.
I must be über 1337 driver! Oh crap. It's not me who is 1337 it's the autoclutch.

Does GTL model clutch heat or malfunction?

[AndroidXP]

Try this with LFS and lets see how long the clutch goes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oKy6QezZt...related&search

But I believe I'm totally wrong, cause LFS is perfect and has nothing more to improve.

Fan boys... tsctsctsc
What's your point?

Personally, in LFS I drive with heel-toe all the time, and compared to that video also make much more brutal and faster upshifts... yet somehow the clutch is never a problem.

Maybe if you stopped being so chickenshit and posted a replay of yours we could see where you go wrong, so you can improve and finally enjoy patch Y, because then you'd maybe finally realise the clutch modelling is not as far off as you believe it to be. If you want to improve that is - if you're just in for your usual trolling then don't bother.

[Woz]

forget

Now we see true colours lol

I take it you have realised your setup/driving is to blame then as you are not willing to post a replay and setup to show us how when you drive right the clutch still burns.

[jayhawk]

And their set.

What the hell is it with guys who burn their clutches? All of you say it's the games fault and has no part what so ever in how you drive.

Come on! How can most VERY fast people drive without heating the clutch? Even us slowpokes can drive without burning it!

I can't burn the effing clutch in a race and I use the bleeding AUTOCLUTCH!

Own up! You just can't shift for shit.

Like anyone will admit their wrong, especially on the internet. Doubly so among their peers. I mean, everyone is an expert when no one is judging you in person, right?

[JO53PHS]

Hi!

Can someone please write a clutch - monitoring
tool, so that the driver can learn in which situation
he would do how much damage to the clutch for
what ever reason...:really:

That would be a total waste of someone's time. You simply need to know the basics of how a clutch works and how to drive a manual car.


You drive off in 4th gear, you burn the clutch
You flatshift in a car without autocut, you burn the clutch
You slip the clutch too much, you burn the clutch.
You attempt to drive up a hill with the car rolling back, without doing a proper hill start, you burn the clutchI have just saved <insert programmer name here> several weeks or months of their time. I deserve a medal (:really:) :D. Theres a whole load of other ways to burn the clutch, but at the end of the day, its just common sense

[Gekkibi]

One common rule is to have apropriate gear in current speed. If you drive 20kmph, please use first or second gear, not third or fourth.

If you are going to stop (for pitting, for example), press the clutch before you stop. It is ok to press it early, only difference is that you don't get motor braking.

If you start to spin, keep your clutch pressed.

Don't keep your clutch pressed only partially. There is no point for doing that. If you want to restrict your acceleration, use throttle instead.

When you want to start moving, you must slide the clutch a little bit, but that doesn't mean you have clutch pressed until you reach T1. It is matter of fraction of seconds.

Like said: Do like you do it in real life.

[delray25]

Okay, I've now made some tests on the FZR specifically [......] So dear troubled FZR racers, do you think you'll be able to adapt this complex change, or will you continue to blame the clutch modelling for the problems your ridiculously long first gear causes? :smileypul ;)

Thank you AndroidXP, for making the effort to sort this out.

It appears that some drivers are exploiting car setup settings, with the consequence that their clutch may easily burn.

This was bound to happen though, seeing that you can adjust your gear ratios in impossible micro-steps.

The next logical step would be to offer a limited range of fixed gear ratios in the car setup. For some cars, you may not be able to change gear ratios at all. That'd be another good reason for a whinge & whine fest, hey

[Speed Soro]

I can't believe what I read here.

I can play GTR2 for hours without burn the clutch, but if I force the engine I burn it.

LFS is better than GTR2 just in 2 things: the complex tyre/suspension physics (it is complex but not proved right yet) and the amazing nude and raw force feedback.

But GTR2 is made from telemetry data, approved by professional drivers and it simulates too many more things that LFS still doesn't simulate.

LFS now simulates the clutch waste and heating and it is wrong. It is a fact simple to observe, anyone can observe that but here the fan boys arguments (or the lack of ) are always impossible to live with.

Where this crap simulation is right??? Show me at least one real life example where the clutch waste so soon and so easy.

My setup is wrong??? Why??? Am I a bad driver? What is so dificult to lift the accel pedal??? Am I dumb?

No my setups are right, I drive right and the clutch waste is bad simulated, simple like that, and many people here lies.

[delray25]

This behavior is wrong. Once it get red there is no way to back to orange.
No no no, YOU are wrong. There IS a way to get the clutch back to orange. If you haven't been able to do it then you must be doing something wrong.
The clutch is wrong, and there is nothing wrong with the way I drive.
I don't know really how well the clutch is simulated, but to assume there is nothing wrong with the way you drive would make it difficult for you to improve. Its just not the kind of attitude that is conducive to learning... or to be treated with respect in forums.

[The Moose]

I can't believe what I read here...... <snip>

Soro...have you ever considered for one moment that the clutch in GTR2 is far too forgiving? Remember, GTR2 is dumbed down for the masses. I'm not getting into a GTR v LFS argument here though so lets knock it on the head there. I'm not an LFS 'fanboy', there are many things i don't like about LFS, but the clutch sure as hell isn't one of them.

Now, instead of saying that many people here are liars why not just post a replay and a setup where you burn the clutch and this issue can be settled once and for all.

I suspect you really don't want to hear that your driving isn't as good as you think it is. If that's not the case then post the replay/setup and prove to us that LFS has got it wrong.

I just cant see how anyone can ruin the clutch when driving correctly:shrug:

[Susi.ger]

Where this crap simulation is right??? Show me at least one real life example where the clutch waste so soon and so easy.


I was 17 years young. We sat in an old Beetle in a traffic jam. The queue didn't move really fast, so our driver decided to start in fourth gear. After a few seconds you could smell the clutch. He aborted this experiment immediately, when the queue began to move faster ... but our car didn't go faster, even in first gear. We had to wait half an hour before we could move on. The clutch has been tortured (not even close to the redline!!!) with a 50bhp engine and we weren't able to move. Now, can you imagine, that a GT-car like the FZR (with its 490bhp) hasn't been made for those "adventures"? It's made for racing and for drivers who are aware of that. There aren't any heavy-duty clutches in racecars because they have to save weight and the drivers "usually" can handle it, like most of the racers in LFS who can handle the patch Y clutch.

When you really want to change sth., upload a replay and your setup. "Maybe" it improves your driving.

Greets

[Speed Soro]

Well, I assume that any argument defending the game here, no matter what point, are always in principle wrong, cause the first position of the majority here is always to defend the game in the stage it is at that moment. It has been in this manner since the beggining, and I have seen people change their opinion many times after any news from the devs. If someone come here and complain, many fall over killing the guy, but after months something is changed, then that people forget they love the old version of the game and start defending everything in the new format.

The clutch is not right, no matter how many times you say that I drive wrong.

I drive right. Not the best drive ever, but ebough for do not burn any clutch in the world.

I didn't start in 3 or 4 not even 2o gear. I started in 1st, I do the same way I use to drive my real car. I lift my foot before change the gears, I do everything right.

This model is wrong. You are asking me to drive like a mom going to the mall in a sunday morning... comon. Those are race cars, and this is just a game, supposed to be simulated but fun.

It is the same thing about RAC. Who in this world could confirm that car is so perverted in real life like it is in the game?

just like Race and many others little things that need improvments, the clutch model is wrong and need too.

Comon, I drive for almost 30 years. This game is wrong, stop.

Im not saying that this game sux, or the clutch sux, or everything like that. I love this game. I really love this game and respect deeply the LFS Team´s work. I'm not saying too that it is supposed to be easy to implement any single detail in the game.

I believe that it is hard. But it is a fact that the clutch is wrong and the fun has been compromised after its appearence.

[tiagolapa]

So you changed to automatic transmission (and other top drivers like you said) and the problem disapears? :tilt:

[Shotglass]

oh god im late for the biannual soro hissyfit

[Zachary Zoomy]

I spun my UF-Baby-R once and was still on the gas while rolling backwards in first. I burnt the clutch to bits.

[frokki]

This model is wrong. You are asking me to drive like a mom going to the mall in a sunday morning... comon. Those are race cars, and this is just a game, supposed to be simulated but fun.Does it read between the lines that the clutch should be more forgiving than in real life because this is just game and you're not having fun because you can't abuse it anymore?

edit: And nobody's asking you to drive slowly, the racing in LFS is still way too agressive compared to real life and if everyone else can do it, why couldn't you?

[VTRacing]

I once caused the clutch-plate in my rally car to explode (literally) because of too much heat, which I generated trying to extricate myself from a ditch. :ashamed:

And this was a "high-performance" clutch.

So, it is quite easy to fry a clutch if you abuse it. Having said that, I do think that the modelling in the game is a little too aggressive, BUT, I would rather have it too aggressive and have to deal with it than be able to ignore it because the clutch heats too slowly. At least it makes you think about your technique.

[shiny_red_cobra]

Some of you guys obviously didn't get the memo when Patch Y was released.

There's a reason that old setups weren't moved to the new setups directory when patch Y was released. That reason is because this clutch overhaul means you have to make new setups. Make a setup with a shorter 1st gear (higher ratio) and a higher final drive. Adjust all other gears correspondingly. It will make for a much easier start with no clutch overheating, because the clutch and flywheel will match speeds much quicker than before when you had a long 1st gear and a low final drive. :thumb:

[Woz]

Well, I assume that any argument defending the game here, no matter what point, are always in principle wrong, cause the first position of the majority here is always to defend the game in the stage it is at that moment.

Let me try one more attempt. You are really saying this at the moment.

"There is a problem. I am not going to give you any information about what the problem is. Its just wrong OK, change it."

If you post a replay and setup if can be looked at to see what the problem you have found is.

Trouble is that since Patch Y there have been many say "Its wrong" but when asked for more info on the issue they believe they have found nobody will post a replay and setup to show what the problem it.

This is why the clutch is a short fuse topic. Nobody that shouts about problems is EVER willing to show what the problem is. The replay and setup allow looking at what is going on and what is the cause of the heat. It could be an issue but unless you show what the problem is it can't be fixed.

[SamH]

Let me try one more attempt. You are really saying this at the moment.

"There is a problem. I am not going to give you any information about what the problem is. Its just wrong OK, change it."
That's not all he's saying, either. According to the quote, any argument defending the game here, no matter what point, are always in principle wrong
he's also saying that nobody can be right if they like LFS. Bit pointless even answering him, IMO, because it's obvious he has no capacity for reason at all.

[xaotik]

It is the same thing about RAC. Who in this world could confirm that car is so perverted in real life like it is in the game?

Although it's a matter of preference in the end, I find that with a proper setup that car is alot of fun to drive. I believe axus and others had released such setups in the thread about locked diffs.

However that which is a perversion is the original colour of the upholstery in that car (yet another matter of preference) - kudos to whoever has made interior textures that deal with it.

This game is wrong, stop.

It could very well be - but I've yet to encounter a problem like the one you mention in any car and I do some lengthy offline stints, usually a gas-tank worth and then I stop. The only blatantly wrong things I've found are mostly relevant to not-yet-implemented features.

[halo]

Well, I assume that any argument defending the game here, no matter what point, are always in principle wrong, cause the first position of the majority here is always to defend the game in the stage it is at that moment. It has been in this manner since the beggining, and I have seen people change their opinion many times after any news from the devs. If someone come here and complain, many fall over killing the guy, but after months something is changed, then that people forget they love the old version of the game and start defending everything in the new format.

The clutch is not right, no matter how many times you say that I drive wrong.

I drive right. Not the best drive ever, but ebough for do not burn any clutch in the world.

I didn't start in 3 or 4 not even 2o gear. I started in 1st, I do the same way I use to drive my real car. I lift my foot before change the gears, I do everything right.

This model is wrong. You are asking me to drive like a mom going to the mall in a sunday morning... comon. Those are race cars, and this is just a game, supposed to be simulated but fun.

It is the same thing about RAC. Who in this world could confirm that car is so perverted in real life like it is in the game?

just like Race and many others little things that need improvments, the clutch model is wrong and need too.

Comon, I drive for almost 30 years. This game is wrong, stop.

Im not saying that this game sux, or the clutch sux, or everything like that. I love this game. I really love this game and respect deeply the LFS Team´s work. I'm not saying too that it is supposed to be easy to implement any single detail in the game.

I believe that it is hard. But it is a fact that the clutch is wrong and the fun has been compromised after its appearence.


Hi, Speed Soro, I respect your opinions. I think many thing is just not right in LFS maybe beside of the clutch. But remember, LFS project is still developing. It is unfair to expect perfection at one shot, so for a small team like this project's devs has, it is awesome what they did until now. This project is aimed high, it will take time to reach there. We have to wait. I believe Scawen already knows about this clutch issue beside of many others. Our advantage is here, we have developers who likes to drive as much as many of us maybe more than many of us.

I am a big fan of LFS and I proud to be. There is no alternative for me. But I am not blind, I can see the flaws in this sim. also. But its not end of the world, it will be better day by day, step by step that is I believe.

To help the devs, we have to describe the problem correctly than put all the evidence about it on the table in a simple & plain way. It is better to post "Improvement Suggestions (http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)" section.

Return to your "clutch" issue, it is better to take notes what happened, where and which situation in a technical detail. No one can judge your driving ability, there is no such a tool in computer environment, they can only tell you about your driver inputs differences or maybe the some inputs that triggered the problems. But thats not proof that you are a bad driver in real life IMO. Contrary, you would be better than many of us in real life situations.
Its matter of adaptation to simulation.

Accept it as is, LFS will be improved in the future patches, for an example; engine model, crash/collision model needs improvement everyone knows but its matter of time.

Have a good day to you all.

[March Hare]

Don't waste your breath. He is incapable of improving as a driver.

He refuses to post a replay of the clutch problem so in all likelyhood there is no problem. He is just a stupid troll.

[Dajmin]

It definitely seems like he's entirely unwilling to accept his driving may be flawed.
The lack of replays or setups backs this up.

SpeedSoro, have you even tried the setup changes that were suggested further up in the thread? Are you using setups downloaded from the Inferno website (and therefor out of date)? Even if they were reworked for Patch Y, they're designed for a single fast lap, not an entire race.

Seriously, if you're burning the clutch racing against a whole field of people who are NOT burning the clutch, I would suggest the problem is yours rather than the software.
But without any evidence we can't tell.

[Neblaivas]

You just can't give us replay right. Spoke so much crap that you can't even say you was wrong. Im sure most of people stop blame if you give replay where you burn your clutch.

[Gekkibi]

Of course the clutch is modelled wrongly! It isn't even near realistic!

And because of that fact, I don't burn clutches. We should do something about it so I also have problems with clutch.

</sarcasm>

Come on! If 5% of the users have problems with clutch and 95% don't have, guess where the problem is..?

[nihil]

It is not a problem with the sim.
Wahahahahahaha its not fair!!! (cry cry cry)

Don't waste your breath. He is incapable of improving as a driver.And so goes another day on the LFS forums.... Three pages of childish jeering.

Except:

When you shorten the first gear just a bit, so it doesn't go to 105+ km/h and instead only to 80-90km/h, the takeoff problem vanishes completely. With that ratio I can do clean 4-6k rpm takeoffs all day, even nasty full throttle takeoffs take quite a long time to get the clutch red - many more times than you'd ever do in a race in such a short timespan.

&

That said, I don't think the clutch is right yet. There doesn't seem to be any differentiation between light surface heat and "deep heat", for lack of a better term.. and therefore there doesn't seem to be a difference between sitting heavily on the clutch and sitting lightly on it.

You know why no one ever searches? Because you really have to dig to find anything useful here.

[Glenn67]

Yep if we didn't have unlimited setup options, there would be less "this isn't right!" threads and if people would just actually listen to what the developers say they would realise that alot of things are not fully implemented yet and therefore are a compromise favouring "normal racing conditions"....

[Mille Sabords]

Thanks for the summary Nihil, I was depressed after reading the first part of the thread and not finding interesting argumentation.
I wonder if there is a way to rate / highlight good posts so that we can hide the garbage rest?

[March Hare]

Still waiting for those replays of the clutch failures.

Kind of hard to help anybody who doesn't give out any details of the problem. :shrug:

[Gekkibi]

Still waiting for those replays of the clutch failures.

Kind of hard to help anybody who doesn't give out any details of the problem. :shrug:

Maybe it's the same thing than showing your penis in the sauna. Someone has bigger than yours. Maybe he don't want to proove that he is doing it wrong. ;)

[March Hare]

Maybe he don't want to proove that he is doing it wrong.
That is the logical conclusion.
Unfortunately that takes all credibility out of their arguments.
Even so they want us to prove that you can fry a clutch IRL. Go figure :shrug:

[southamptonfc]

Got to say I agree with you there mate. In the recent IGTC (FZR) race my teamate got hit, tried to recover, clutch burnt out. 6 Laps he had to wait on the side. He didn't do anything crazy when recovering. I have heard from alot of real life racers that there is no way a real clutch would overheat in less than 1 second..... It has seriously ruined alot of GTR races. I would be interested to hear from anyone who drives these cars for real if I am wrong. It's also the same with the SS cars. One spin and your clutch is gone.

I agree with this, you can pull away in 5th gear in a road car and still change gear without the clutch slipping like crazy, in lfs you can't

[Dillyracer]

Not this AGAIN.

[J@tko]

The clutch simulation is much more realistic than everyone racing round flatshifting their XFGs. :shrug:

[JeffR]

Burnt clutch? How about you exit pits without doing it with your foot on the floor? Try easing out of the pits like... REAL DRIVERS DO?Real race cars have very light flywheels, that make the engines prone to stalling if trying to use a normal launch. Also, a lot of race clutches are either "on or off" like devices. They're very grabby, and typically it's very difficult to slip these clutches, which is another reason (in addition to a light flywheel), that it's so easy to stall an engine when exiting the pits unless the driver uses a lot of throttle and just drops the clutch in order let the tires spin, since the clutch doesn't want to slip, and the engine has too light a flywheel for inertia to keep the launch going.

[March Hare]

I agree with this, you can pull away in 5th gear in a road car and still change gear without the clutch slipping like crazy, in lfs you can't
Post a vid of you doing this both IRL and LFS.

EDIT:
Here are two replays of me driving with mouse and KB starting with the 5th gear on a road car with the dreaded autoclutch! Watch the clutch indicator! And enjoy my grandad like driving skillz!
Explicit content! Parental quidance advised.

[AndroidXP]

@JeffR: That's true, usually the pits are left with a short wheelspin instead of a smooth clutch controlled takeoff. That doesn't mean they rev to the redline and drop the clutch, though, which is the biggest factor in the FZR's takeoff clutch heating "problem" we saw in this thread. The clutch would heat up because they used a too long first gear and most likely sat on the redline till the pitstop was finished, which equals massive clutch abuse :)

[Speed Soro]

First thing: I like LFS and I know as everyone here knows that it is a WIP, so please don't guide the conversation by this way.

Second thing: I drive since my 18, and I'm 45 now.

I've had faced unnumbered situations since that age driving fast in the streets (I don't recommend) in the chaotic traffic of my country.

I always use manual gears (thing that many europeans and americans don't know). In fact my first time driving with automatic shift was now in LFS. Even in games I always use manual shift.

I had clutch problems once when I was young. My car was very very old, very bad conserved, and the situation was on the limit.

Now I drive my simple domestic cars, with any preparation for races, and I can hold them in a rise without using brakes, doing what we call here "rampa", what means to hold the car controlling the accelerator and clutch pedals. I avoid doing that cause I know that is not good for the clutch, but I can do that for many seconds (not just a fraction of it) and when I go the clutch is well, I can't smell any burned tyre, I can't notice any decrease in the clutch perfomance.

I do that every single day, my car has more than 2 years now, and the clutch keep fine. It doesn't waste 1 mm or 2 in a single start!!! It is an absurd and you all are trying to convincing me to accept that the game is right! It is not right, it is wrong!

In LFS (no matter what perfect your setup be) you can't do any mistake, you can't do any slipage, cause the clutch wastes too fast, in a way that real clutch doesn't waste, and it heats to fast, and lates to back to an acceptable temperature.

I won't post any replay. I don't need to prove what I'm saying.

Even if my driving be not perfect, it does not justify the fact that the clutch wastes too fast. My car has a forgiving clutch like any other car has. It is designed to be forgiving in the real life, and race clutches are bigger, stronger and more resistent, so how can you say that this is right?

Scawen has made a new parameter for race drivers now: keep an eye on the clutch bar. It doesn't exist, it is totally wrong!

There is no pair in the real life!

And about RAC, I like to drive that car, and unfortunatelly it is too rare to find people on the servers using it.

[xaotik]

In LFS (no matter what perfect your setup be) you can't do any mistake, you can't do any slipage, cause the clutch wastes too fast, in a way that real clutch doesn't waste, and it heats to fast, and lates to back to an acceptable temperature.

Well the clutch isn't wasted in LFS because there is no clutch wear or damage. It does heat up though. However with the normal road cars I have yet to overheat it even when roughing them up in a rallycross track and I do use autoclutch which IMO is a tad too perfectionist and likes to engage itself at the slightest opportunity.

It is designed to be forgiving in the real life, and race clutches are bigger, stronger and more resistent, so how can you say that this is right?

AFAIK from reading several posts in other threads from this subject it was generally accepted that typical car racing clutches (not specialized for drag racing, drifting or whatever) are strong, small, light and grippier and not made to slip therefore they will generate alot of heat if they do slip.

I won't post any replay. I don't need to prove what I'm saying.

But it would help in making people stop trying to disprove you, no? Evidence in an argument is a good thing generally - it helps people understand.

[March Hare]

I won't post any replay. I don't need to prove what I'm saying.
If you want to be taken seriously then you need proof. Otherwise you are just shooting of your mouth.

[Gekkibi]

First thing: I like LFS and I know as everyone here knows that it is a WIP, so please don't guide the conversation by this way.

Second thing: I drive since my 18, and I'm 45 now.

I've had faced unnumbered situations since that age driving fast in the streets (I don't recommend) in the chaotic traffic of my country.

I always use manual gears (thing that many europeans and americans don't know). In fact my first time driving with automatic shift was now in LFS. Even in games I always use manual shift.

I had clutch problems once when I was young. My car was very very old, very bad conserved, and the situation was on the limit.

Now I drive my simple domestic cars, with any preparation for races, and I can hold them in a rise without using brakes, doing what we call here "rampa", what means to hold the car controlling the accelerator and clutch pedals. I avoid doing that cause I know that is not good for the clutch, but I can do that for many seconds (not just a fraction of it) and when I go the clutch is well, I can't smell any burned tyre, I can't notice any decrease in the clutch perfomance.

I do that every single day, my car has more than 2 years now, and the clutch keep fine. It doesn't waste 1 mm or 2 in a single start!!! It is an absurd and you all are trying to convincing me to accept that the game is right! It is not right, it is wrong!

In LFS (no matter what perfect your setup be) you can't do any mistake, you can't do any slipage, cause the clutch wastes too fast, in a way that real clutch doesn't waste, and it heats to fast, and lates to back to an acceptable temperature.

I won't post any replay. I don't need to prove what I'm saying.

Even if my driving be not perfect, it does not justify the fact that the clutch wastes too fast. My car has a forgiving clutch like any other car has. It is designed to be forgiving in the real life, and race clutches are bigger, stronger and more resistent, so how can you say that this is right?

Scawen has made a new parameter for race drivers now: keep an eye on the clutch bar. It doesn't exist, it is totally wrong!

There is no pair in the real life!

And about RAC, I like to drive that car, and unfortunatelly it is too rare to find people on the servers using it.

- First of all, we europeans don't always use auto-tanny.
- Secondly, you are saying something and don't need to prove your statement. Then I will say that earth is flat, and I don't have to prove it! You are all wrong! It is flat!
- Thirdly, if you would attach reply and your setup, we won't have to fight this. Well, I don't care if you have problems with clutch, but because so many don't have, so..

[AndroidXP]

I always use manual gears (thing that many europeans [..] don't know).

I don't know how you got that idea, manual is by far the most used transmission type in Europe.

It doesn't waste 1 mm or 2 in a single start!!!
The clutch doesn't wear (or "waste" as you call it) in LFS at all. Only heating is modelled.

[xaotik]

If anything I'd say that I can't find how the clutch heat issue adds anything because it surely doesn't stop flatshifting - the only race-related incident I can see it coming to play is in spin recovery if someone is forgetful with the autoclutch and a high gear.

But as I see it it seems to be part of the reworked clutch model, which hopefully is part of a coming reworked drivetrain model which in turn hopefully will include more complex damage.

[JeffR]

@JeffR: That's true, usually the pits are left with a short wheelspin instead of a smooth clutch controlled takeoff. That doesn't mean they rev to the redline and drop the clutch, though, which is the biggest factor in the FZR's takeoff clutch heating "problem" we saw in this thread. The clutch would heat up because they used a too long first gear and most likely sat on the redline till the pitstop was finished, which equals massive clutch abuse.My point was that the clutches virtually don't slip, only the tires. In F1 type race cars, with small 4 lb flywheels, they are using high rpms and heavy throttle to launch. Note that a typical F1 race car has 1st gear set for about 85mph to 100mph, depending on the track.

My Suzuki Hayabusa, 175hp, 750lb, doesn't have anywhere near the power to weight ratio of a F1 race car (800hp, 1400lb), and it's 1st gear redlines at 81mph. The drag racers slip the heck out of the stock clutches on bikes like these, and get quite a few runs before having to replace the clutch packs.

spinning - clutch overheatingI don't see how spinning itself a car is going to overheat the clutch, regardless of gear or throttle position. If in a low gear the tires will slip, if in a high gear the engine will end up spinning backwards. Trying to take off in a high gear after a spin could heat up a clutch, but not the spin itself. If a LFS car gets hit hard, then clutch damage sometimes happens.

[quote]Flat shifting with auto-clutch isn't an issue if you flat shift close enough to redline so the engine rpms don't raise before dropping because of the gear shift. I have a replay of this in a LX6:

jrbllx6.spr (http://jeffareid.net/lfs/jrbllx6.spr)

Still this doesn't mean the clutch heating is bug-free. Tall gearing shouldn't be an issue. I've driven a car with a tall first gear (62mph) and a light flywheel (Caterham SV with 250hp), and it required a lot of clutch slipping and throttle to launch, even in stop and go traffic, and it never overheated the clutch.

[xaotik]

Trying to take off in a high gear after a spin could heat up a clutch, but not the spin itself. If a LFS car gets hit hard, then clutch damage sometimes happens.

It will heat up in LFS when using autoclutch when starting up, which is what I mentioned earlier. It's all too eager to slip it for you. That's likely why you get clutch heat when the car is hit hard as well, instantaneous autoclutch.

[AndroidXP]

I don't see how spinning itself a car is going to overheat the clutch, regardless of gear or throttle position. I don't know how often this has to be explained, because I surely remember doing it several times already, but spinning in LFS does not heat the clutch.

Trying to accelerate while driving backwards with autoclutch enabled does.

[Tisza]

I never had any problems with the clutch. Lift off the gas while shifting, and you won't have any problems at all. And yes, clutch can cool down.

[JeffR]

Trying to accelerate while driving backwards with autoclutch enabled does.Didn't think about the autoclutch issue while going backwards at high speeds. I do recall that going slow while in a high gear with autoclutch enabled was an issue, since it let's the clutch slip. I put the LX6 into 6th gear and slowed to 10mph, then went full throttle, and the clutch slipped until I reach about 30mph. Two cycles of this and the clutch was gone. With auto-clutch off, there was no clutch slippage or heat issue, as expected.

Does autoclutch slip the clutch if going backwards at high speeds in a tall gear? If autoclutch isn't on, and the driver doesn't use the clutch, does the engine end up spinning backwards, killing it?

Lift off the gas while shifting, and you won't have any problems at all.If the goal of this was to stop no lift shifts (what I call flat shifting), it didn't do it as shown in the replay below. I used auto-clutch and did full throttle, no lift shifts on the LX6 at Blackwood and only got about 2 slivers of orange on the clutch heat, which remained about the same on a 3 lap run.

jrbllx6.spr (http://jeffareid.net/lfs/jrbllx6.spr)

[Glenn67]

Does autoclutch slip the clutch if going backwards at high speeds in a tall gear? If autoclutch isn't on, and the driver doesn't use the clutch, does the engine end up spinning backwards, killing it?


Yes to both questions (although it doesn't kill the engine as in damage it kills it as in stalling).

The clutch as implemented at the moment is not a 100% simulation and will have bugs especially in areas that are extreme or outside what is considered normal racing conditions.

The important thing is that it behaves as expected in race conditions most of the time, this can be said about a number of physics implementations in LFS including areo and tyres.

Show me were Scawen claims anything but what I just stated.

:shrug:

[AndroidXP]

Does autoclutch slip the clutch if going backwards at high speeds in a tall gear? If autoclutch isn't on, and the driver doesn't use the clutch, does the engine end up spinning backwards, killing it?
Okay first, the engine can't spin backwards, at least not in LFS (it might be possible in real life, but I believe it's coupled with heavy damage :shrug:). Anyway, the autoclutch itself actually isn't the problem either, just let me give you an example:

The car spins (you're driving/rolling/skidding backwards).

Correct behaviour:
- Clutch in
- Apply brakes or try to regain control otherwise

Incorrect behaviour:
- Don't clutch in
- Stay on throttle (for whatever reason)

Now if we examine the incorrect behaviour, two scenarios can happen.

Incorrect + manual clutch:
- The engine stalls (throttle didn't help)
- The driven wheels lock up, as the engine cannot rotate backwards
- You feel like an idiot, restart the engine and continue the race

Incorrect + autoclutch:
- The engine is about to stall, so the autoclutch kicks in, preventing it from doing so
- The autoclutch mechanism detects that you are on the throttle and thus obviously like to accelerate the car. Therefore the clutch is eased in, slipping it to smoothly accelerate while still preventing the stall. Your current speed is about -100km/h and you're in 4th gear, the result is a burnt clutch.
- You scream bloody murder and write a rant thread on the forums about how wrong the clutch modelling is. Then you get corrected and feel like an idiot.

:tilt:

[tristancliffe]

If LFS introduces a rubbish Clutch simulation, then I will stop playing and/or posting. But it's pretty good really if you drive in a realistic fashion.

[aoun]

Well, I assume that any argument defending the game here, no matter what point, are always in principle wrong, cause the first position of the majority here is always to defend the game in the stage it is at that moment. It has been in this manner since the beggining, and I have seen people change their opinion many times after any news from the devs. If someone come here and complain, many fall over killing the guy, but after months something is changed, then that people forget they love the old version of the game and start defending everything in the new format.

And so goes another day on the LFS forums.... Three pages of childish jeering.

Except:



&



You know why no one ever searches? Because you really have to dig to find anything useful here.

Theres two quotes i liked reading even though Speed Soro does not stop quacking. He really really REALLY doesn't stop. :D

[March Hare]

Then you get corrected and feel like an idiot.
Or you refuse to accept that you are doing something wrong and end up lookin even more of an idiot. :thumb:

[aoun]

One thing that really just gets old and really makes you think is this bloke typing stupid? Is the fact that people question the physics engine and the physics itself saying:

"its wrong, this ain't right, in RL it doesn't do this, doesn't do that, quack quack quack quack quack" etc...

http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/duck.gif

Of course nothing going to be good yet, we haven't even gotten to s2 final. We JUST got the clutch heat a few months ago. It has NOT been updated.

Cant people simply read "Live For Speed S2 ALPHA"? Is it really that hard?


Have a wine when S3 COMPLETE is released.

[The Moose]

Cant people simply read "Live For Speed S2 ALPHA"? Is it really that hard?


Whilst that is true it's completely irrelevant in this case.

As has been said many times now, the clutch operates correctly under normal racing conditions.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH THE CLUTCH SORO!

Sorry for shouting, but his pig ignorant refusal to believe that he is the problem is winding me up.

He speaks as if he's the only person that's got any real world driving experience. :scratchch

For your information Soro, 99% of Europeans drive a Manual gearbox.

No one is asking you to drive like a granny in the sim. I and many others drive long stints flat out and don't have the slightest problem, why is this?

You may not think you have to prove anything, but I'm afraid that without some 'proof' your comments are just a worthless rant and nothing else.

Swallow your pride for a second and post a replay/setup.
Be man enough to accept you don't know it all and be prepared to learn something. This stupid argument can stop and you get to learn something that will make LFS even more enjoyable for you.
It's a no lose situation:nod:

[JeffR]

very tall 1st gearSo the real issue here is the autoclutch behavior combined with the very tall first gear? I assume a non-autoclutch isn't going to have this same issue, as the tires could be spun instead.

[tristancliffe]

Or because the clutch can be engaged without slipping so much, so it's fully engaged at lower rpms.

[JeffR]

I forgot to mention that, simply not slipping at lower rpms. So it's probably the combination of a tall first gear and auto-clutch.

[March Hare]

Or the person using the manual clutch incorrectly.
On the previous page I posted some replays where I started in 5th gear with autoclutch. In the latter there is hardly any heat at all.

[ajp71]

It's true though, in the eTM we drive the FZR and even on tracks like AS GP doing a pitstop allways overheats the clutch, just from pulling out of the pitbox. Our last race was at South City and the pitstops were stupid, in this round the pitstops were obviously much worse, some people had about 30-40% clutch heat.


Are you pulling away very slowly in sixth gear with auto-clutch? I can do 10 clutch dump starts to the rev limiter in first gear in a row with the amount of clutch heat attached. Maybe you could post a short replay of you trying to do the same so we can see how hard it is :smileypul


I can play GTR2 for hours without burn the clutch, but if I force the engine I burn it.


Erm... no the ISI model doesn't simulate clutch heat or wear :really:

[The Moose]

Erm... no the ISI model doesn't simulate clutch heat or wear :really:

rofl
I suggested it might have been dumbed down.. not so much that it didn't even exist though :D

[AlienT.]

Are you pulling away very slowly in sixth gear with auto-clutch?

Auto clutch has to be enable for the eTM, I put it down to Ray being too slow and unable to drive :D

[March Hare]

Erm... no the ISI model doesn't simulate clutch heat or wear :really:
LOL! Soro is so good at shifting that he burns the clutch even in a game that doesn't have clutch failures!

There went the rest of his credibility.

[Speed Soro]

The setups from team inferno are wrong? Ok.

Please, give me the right setup for the base: XFG on BL.

Please, I'll give a try to your suggestion.

[Speed Soro]

LOL! Soro is so good at shifting that he burns the clutch even in a game that doesn't have clutch failures!

There went the rest of his credibility.

Credibility? What are you talking about? I'm not here to be credible, I'm just exposing a problem that the game has.

Ok, GTR2 does not simulate clutch failures, and I was not happy with this example, but it does simulate brake and engine heating and failures, and you can burn them, but you need to do things that will cause this effect such as you'll do in real cars.

I mean, you feel that you are doing something wrong and you can avoid it.

But in LFS you can't feel if you are pushing too hard the clutch. A little mistake and the clutch goes away.

People here use to get some things out the point. The discussion is if the clutch is realistc or not, and I said not. But credibility, blablabla... comon... how old are you?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Okay first, the engine can't spin backwards, at least not in LFS (it might be possible in real life, but I believe it's coupled with heavy damage :shrug:).

There shouldn't be any damage as far as I can tell; if it spins fine foward it will spin fine in reverse. Shouldn't be any fuel coming in and firing at odd times or anything like that as it will be shot back out the intake manifold. When I was a wee lad, the massive diesel in my grandfather's tractor began to run backwards for a short period of time when it got backing down an incline. Scared the bajeebers out of me as things began spraying out of the air filter and it was sucking in air through the exhaust pipe with a weather cap on it (serious hiss). Of course being compression ignition it was firing probably right at TDC or close to it and the systems were all mechanical so it worked for a short time. Anyway, sorry for the interjection.

edit: BTW Sorro, racing clutches can take much less abuse than road car clutches. They are stronger, sure, but they have higher coefficients of friction (thus both wear and heat easier) and are smaller (surface area), not bigger, than conventional clutches. Also, I don't think anyone is denying that you can do things (if you try) to heat up the clutches in LFS easier than you can IRL, but the fact IS that those things don't affect proper racing. Much like the fact that you can crash head on at 300k and move right along - it can be done, and it's not realistic, but it's an extreme situation that is not fundamental to racing. THAT is the point. Yes you can hold you car on an incline IRL (why you would do that I fail to understand, but that's beside the point) longer than in LFS. Note: IT DOES NOT MATTER to racing.

[ajp71]

Auto clutch has to be enable for the eTM, I put it down to Ray being too slow and unable to drive :D

What a silly rule, if you can't drive the car how it's meant to be driven then obviously people will run into problems. If people just dump the clutch in first gear after pitstops and spins as everyone does in a competition car by choice for pretty similar reasons you shouldn't run into problems.

I think a lot of people don't understand that slipping a triple plate racing clutch is very very difficult IRL and real drivers do not pull away gently from idle in first let alone any other gear. For this reason the results of trying to pull away from a hopeless situation which the auto clutch will slip for you normally result in a stall IRL.

[tristancliffe]

I know about stalling - I did it on the grid the other day, like a fool, and had to start from the back. Had it been a nice road clutch I'd have slipped it, and lost a few meaningless seconds. Oh, and my first gear is good for about 65mph (not much compared to some very fast cars I know).

In LFS the race engines don't stall quite easily enough, but it would be rather mean to give us such a sharp clutch without motion platforms being the norm.

[NathanRx-7]

To be honest clutch problems come with habits, such as I powershift which burns the clutch abit.

And LFS aint a racing GAME, its a racing SIMULATOR

Meaning realism.

[Gekkibi]

...Maybe devs should remove auto-clutch because as long it is included, people are nagging about unrealistic clutch heat...

Then they will nag about that they can't afford to buy controller with clutch pedal. Life isn't fair. Go to work or something.

[AlienT.]

What a silly rule, if you can't drive the car how it's meant to be driven then obviously people will run into problems. If people just dump the clutch in first gear after pitstops and spins as everyone does in a competition car by choice for pretty similar reasons you shouldn't run into problems.

I think a lot of people don't understand that slipping a triple plate racing clutch is very very difficult IRL and real drivers do not pull away gently from idle in first let alone any other gear. For this reason the results of trying to pull away from a hopeless situation which the auto clutch will slip for you normally result in a stall IRL.

Probably is a silly rule, i can only guess that it has to be that way so folks without a clutch pedal are on an even playing field?

[ajp71]

Probably is a silly rule, i can only guess that it has to be that way so folks without a clutch pedal are on an even playing field?

There are two cars that don't give a disadvantage to auto-clutch users. Getting a clutch pedal isn't really prohibitively hard or expensive, there's no need to buy a three pedal set to get a separate clutch.

[frokki]

The car spins (you're driving/rolling/skidding backwards).

Incorrect behaviour:
- Don't clutch in
- Stay on throttle (for whatever reason)

Now if we examine the incorrect behaviour, two scenarios can happen.

Incorrect + manual clutch:
- The engine stalls (throttle didn't help)
- The driven wheels lock up, as the engine cannot rotate backwards
- You feel like an idiot, restart the engine and continue the race


Or you stay on throttle without even touching the clutch, the car doesn't stall (this is the point where the simulation fails?), and you heat up your clutch. Try it with FBM for example...

[Woz]

The setups from team inferno are wrong? Ok.

The inferno setups are NOT race setups, more hotlap. Many use locked diffs etc and are there to exploit the physics to get the BEST laptime possible. Most of them are used for WR runs etc.

[pinoykid13]

I don't see why some people can't change gear without frying up the clutch :shrug:
i agree 100%

[AndroidXP]

@frokki: It can happen in cases where the clutch is relatively weak and the tyre grip strong. The engine is stalled/blocked and the tyres too grippy to just lock up, making the clutch the weakest link in the chain, which is then forced to rotate/slip even though it's fully engaged. Remember that the clutch strength is currently calculated by maximum engine torque and flywheel inertia, so the FBM with extremely low torque but high tyre grip is the ideal candidate for this situation. However, the heat generated there is, while considerable, not even close to what an autoclutch spin does to your clutch.

There are definitely small and medium sized holes in LFS' engine/transmission/clutch/etc. modelling, and nobody is denying that it doesn't behave correctly in every possible situation, but none of these issues are a problem at all during a race.

[Bawbag]

What a silly rule, if you can't drive the car how it's meant to be driven then obviously people will run into problems. If people just dump the clutch in first gear after pitstops and spins as everyone does in a competition car by choice for pretty similar reasons you shouldn't run into problems.

I think a lot of people don't understand that slipping a triple plate racing clutch is very very difficult IRL and real drivers do not pull away gently from idle in first let alone any other gear. For this reason the results of trying to pull away from a hopeless situation which the auto clutch will slip for you normally result in a stall IRL.


The auto clutch rule is not silly, it's because people are taking advantage of button clutching again and more so macros, watch any one of Pecholoblos WR's and you will see why this rule is in effect.

As for the steaming it out of the pitstop full throttle, watch the south city long replay I posted up and watch Marco Shades second pitstop, he comes away from the pitstop so tenderly and his clutch still overheats.

I guess the problem really is that the FZR doesn't have the sequential gearbox like the XRR and FXR, I don't think it would be much a problem if they all used the same box. Still a balancing issue I guess, and that issue has been so overly debated that I don't wanna go back into it...again. :D

[AlienT.]

Ahh I see, well explained Ray, I didn't realise that there were any exploits that way. :)

[ajp71]

Sorry Bawbag but I don't have time to watch a huge replay, why don't you just quickly show me what the issue is pulling away from the pits with a reasonable first gear in the FZR?

Forcing the FZR to run with auto-clutch is daft because you're loosing an element of the simulation if people really can't be trusted not to use button clutch cheats in a league race that's a bit sad and if there isn't a way of detecting it you can't really realistically run the FZR.

[Speed Soro]

I'm waiting someone to share a correct setup for XFG/BL considering the use of 3 pedals and manual clutch/shift.

Anyone?

tks

[Bawbag]

Sorry Bawbag but I don't have time to watch a huge replay, why don't you just quickly show me what the issue is pulling away from the pits with a reasonable first gear in the FZR?

Forcing the FZR to run with auto-clutch is daft because you're loosing an element of the simulation if people really can't be trusted not to use button clutch cheats in a league race that's a bit sad and if there isn't a way of detecting it you can't really realistically run the FZR.


He pits after 5 minutes but quite basicly, he pulls away with allmost no throttle and it still overheats the clutch. As for the unrealisticly long first gear, the car launches just as well with this longer gear than a shorter one. The reason the first gears were slightly long is becuase of the hairpin, 2nd is to long a gear to use and first would be to short if it would be "realistic".

:shrug:

As for trust, in leagues like the eTM and the GSL where there are some good prizes, people will do anything to make time, even if it means taking an advantage over their opponents then they will do it.

It's very simple to make a macro through the logitech profiler so that the clutch is enable as soon as you click the paddle, it's not even as hard as button clutching.

[Hyperactive]

The reason the first gears were slightly long is becuase of the hairpin, 2nd is to long a gear to use and first would be to short if it would be "realistic".

:shrug:

Isn't that just a calculated risk? Better gear ratios for maximum speed with the added danger of burning the clutch because of the long ratios used? If the problem goes away with shorter ratios, there really isn't much problems to begin with :).

Kinda like clipping the apexes on Kyoto tracks. With a bit of luck you will get away with it. Take away the luck and the curb edges grab your tires like magnets and spin you around with evil laughter. When you go over the curb you consciously take the risk of spinning, just like when choosing to use long 1st gear in car which is known to be hard on the clutch.

[wien]

I'm waiting someone to share a correct setup for XFG/BL considering the use of 3 pedals and manual clutch/shift.And we are waiting for your replay showing unrealistic clutch behavior. Earlier you refused to do that, so why should we go to any more effort than you're willing to? You're the one making claims here after all.

[Bawbag]

Isn't that just a calculated risk? Better gear ratios for maximum speed with the added danger of burning the clutch because of the long ratios used? If the problem goes away with shorter ratios, there really isn't much problems to begin with :).

Kinda like clipping the apexes on Kyoto tracks. With a bit of luck you will get away with it. Take away the luck and the curb edges grab your tires like magnets and spin you around with evil laughter. When you go over the curb you consciously take the risk of spinning, just like when choosing to use long 1st gear in car which is known to be hard on the clutch.


I didn't really get my point accorss properly, sorry, what I was meaning that even with a shorter more 'realistic' first gear, the problem is still the same, the clutch still overheats in the pitstops. Sure if you make first gear only reach 20mph then the clutch wont heat up as much, but how 'realistic' is that? ;)

[ajp71]

He pits after 5 minutes but quite basicly, he pulls away with allmost no throttle and it still overheats the clutch. As for the unrealisticly long first gear, the car launches just as well with this longer gear than a shorter one. The reason the first gears were slightly long is becuase of the hairpin, 2nd is to long a gear to use and first would be to short if it would be "realistic".


Pulling away slowly is very difficult with almost no throttle isn't done IRL because it's impossible to balance a racing clutch like that. The autoclutch in LFS isn't good for pulling away with because it slips far too much for the amount of throttle applied, so the quicker you pull away the less damage you'll do. I still don't see why if it is really an issue you can't just dump the clutch in pit stops, in which case as I went and tested you could safely stop and start in every pit box without burning the clutch out if you really felt like it.

[Bawbag]

Hmm, from all the tests i've done, the clutch doesn't heat up as much when your using say 50% throttle as apposed to 100%.

I think it was the FBMW that the more throttle you used, the longer the clutch stayed engaged for.

So in my pitstops if I pulled away less viggerously, like not full throttle as it should be done, i'd gain less clutch heat. :shrug:

[wien]

watch the south city long replay I posted up and watch Marco Shades second pitstop, he comes away from the pitstop so tenderly and his clutch still overheats.Watched it and frankly it's very hard to tell what he's doing due to the replay lag, but I don't think "tenderly" is the word I would use. He's hardly on throttle before he's released, that's true, but to me it looks like he stomps on the throttle just as he's released causing clutch slip and heat. His 1st gear also seems to go to around 100+ km/h, which according to Android's experiments seem to be just a tad too long for a full throttle launch in the FZR.

Either way, about a lap with somewhat careful shifting would easily bring the temp back down from where it was after the pitstop.

[Shotglass]

id really like to know that youre doing there anyway
i just spent a few mins testing the clutch on the fzr with race_s and r2s on the rear wheels using full throttle starts at redline
by the time i got any meaningful clutch heat in the tyres were red hot and after about a lap of driving like ġŗoñħöłms grandmother on those undriveable rear tyres i was back into orange

although i still think the h gate on a fzr should be shiftable without using the clutch at all

[ajp71]

I just tried the FZR with auto-clutch on and my only good set for it, which by chance happens to have first redlining at 50mph. It pulls away without problem from multiple starts at full, half and just enough throttle. You've got six gears so one of them is going to have to be low enough to allow you to pull away, first gear is never normally used on racing cars, certainly not with six speed 'boxes except to pull away from a standstill calmly and normally for starts, although if you're not using all the gears there could be logic in having first very low and second ideal for a clutch dump sitauation, in reality at least.

We already proved in earlier threads that it's perfectly possible to pull away in any gear with almost no heat if you control the thottle and clutch correctly so it's hardly as if there's any large issue with the LFS clutch modeling just that it realistically burns the clutch out if you try and pull away badly with a very long first gear on a racing clutch.

[Shotglass]

even with a gear that tops out at ~120 and a mouse i can easily pull away with addin no more than 1 or 2 pixels of heat... and thats hardly an ideal setup

[wien]

i can easily pull away with addin no more than 1 or 2 pixels of heat...Try revving up and then dropping it into gear (with autoclutch). I believe that is what's happening to the people having trouble pulling away from a pit stop.

[Shotglass]

Try revving up and then dropping it into gear (with autoclutch). I believe that is what's happening to the people having trouble pulling away from a pit stop.

this way using race_s i have to go up to 4th to get into the reds and that gear tops out at just a bit below 200
and even 5th doesnt get me far enough into the reds to make the clutch slip under full acceleration and after a couple of laps of taking it easy while shifting im back into orange

[wien]

Yeah, race_s has a fairly short first gear, so that seems about right. With a first gear similar to the one in Bawbag's replay (108km/h) it takes me 3 full throttle starts to go from a cold clutch to an overheating one using that method. It depends highly on the length of the gear though. It doesn't take many km/h lower to extend it to 4-5 starts.

This is extreme clutch abuse though. Even moderate feathering of the throttle to keep the revs sane completely removes the problem. I can't understand why anyone would just stomp on the throttle while hearing the autoclutch slip like that.

[Woz]

I can't understand why anyone would just stomp on the throttle while hearing the autoclutch slip like that.

In the end the problem is that too many people think of and treat LFS like normal race games out on the market instead of enjoying the complexity a sim brings to the table.

They want to pretend that they are a great and fast race driver but do not actually want to deal with what that actually entails. They do not want to deal with mechanical sympathy and balance car abuse with speed they just want to pretend they can drive fast.

Why should they have to drive a 50 lap race differently from a 3 lap sprint?

Why should they have ease off and nurse cooked tyres for a lap or so to let them cool a little?

Why do they have to worry about loss of grip when they put a tyre on the the mud?

Why does the clutch cook when I slip it all the time? I have driven a car around town for 20 years and never cooked a clutch and these are race cars so what gives?

Same happened when tyre heat cam in. Before then most people pushed far to far and too hard because they could and then all of a sudden they had to deal with the reality that tyres cook up and lose grip.

In the end racing is not about who is the fastest round the track, that is qualification and hot lapping. Racing is about keeping the car in one piece for the duration of the race while pushing as hard as you can.

This sort of thread will get more common as the sim improves and drivers have to worry about many different types of damage. Even the implementation of the car body rubbing on tyres will make many setups worthless unless they restrict lock or raise the ride height a little.

[frokki]

-- A perfect place for thread lock --

Very good post, Woz :)

[J@tko]

I'm waiting someone to share a correct setup for XFG/BL considering the use of 3 pedals and manual clutch/shift.

Anyone?

tks

Here's my BL GP Race setup.

I don't use pedals or manual clutch, but should still be fine :shrug:

[AndroidXP]

I'm waiting someone to share a correct setup for XFG/BL considering the use of 3 pedals and manual clutch/shift.

Anyone?

The setup issue was related to the FZR, how does the XFG come into play here? Even so, the default setups are fine for 3 pedal manual clutch/shift racing - if you have problems with clutch heating with these setups then you are doing something wrong. Please post a replay of you driving with these setups, and we might finally be able to tell what you're doing wrong.

[nihil]

In the end the problem is that too many people think of and treat LFS like normal race games out on the market instead of enjoying the complexity a sim brings to the table.



Sorry but I have to disagree with this statement (one that typifies the kind of bumptious and presumptious moralising that has clouded not only this thread but the whole clutch debate... and probably most other debates on this forum)

I think that some of the blame for any kind of misunderstanding in the userbase has to be dumped at the door of LFS' piecemeal development. AFAIK LFS' design policy has always put a premium on physical modeling (ie. no canned effects for ffb etc), which means that everything simulated ultimately has a connection to everything else (within the simulation).

The clutch model (with its 'power bar' etc) smacks of a game element that has been added in haste to appease some of the more vocal forum members who have been whining about the 'paddle shifter'/no lift advantage for a while now. Is it really any coincidence that it was introduced relatively soon after people began proclaiming the G25 faith?

I like the LFS design philosophy but surely the damage and wear should be a logical consequence of the engine model, not something tacked on like a ricer's aerofoil.

[ajp71]

@Bawbag - By a full throttle start I mean holding the car on the clutch then dumping it sending you off in a flurry of wheel spin before the auto-clutch has time to start burning it up for you.


I think that some of the blame for any kind of misunderstanding in the userbase has to be dumped at the door of LFS' piecemeal development. AFAIK LFS' design policy has always put a premium on physical modeling (ie. no canned effects for ffb etc), which means that everything simulated ultimately has a connection to everything else (within the simulation).


What's your point the clutch is a device that connects the gearbox and engine together. Damage to the clutch is only possible by miss using both devices it is connected to at the same time. If you feel the clutch is independent of everything else in LFS then no wonder you're burning them up all the time.


The clutch model (with its 'power bar' etc) smacks of a game element that has been added in haste to appease some of the more vocal forum members who have been whining about the 'paddle shifter'/no lift advantage for a while now. Is it really any coincidence that it was introduced relatively soon after people began proclaiming the G25 faith?


The G25 has sparked wider clutch pedal ownership, although still isn't the only viable or cheapest method of entry. The power bar itself is a horribly arcadey feature in the same way the tire temps and suspension damage are. I'd really like to see them all removed but it'll only increase whining.


I like the LFS design philosophy but surely the damage and wear should be a logical consequence of the engine model, not something tacked on like a ricer's aerofoil.

The clutch is an independent component that can be mated to a different engine and gearbox if you want it to. It acts separately, you nearly always know pretty much instantly using a bit of common sense whether you've got a drivetrain, engine or clutch issue. Trying to make it sound minor is silly, both of our cars have spent multiple races sitting out with clutch issues over the years and both have been push started by yours truly and raced with seized clutches. In contrast we've only had less engine related retirements on both cars, only ever bent valves from over revving/missing shifts on the CVH and a weird ECU issues.

[Dajmin]

AFAIK LFS' design policy has always put a premium on physical modeling (ie. no canned effects for ffb etc), which means that everything simulated ultimately has a connection to everything else (within the simulation).
True so far. Or that's what they strive for at least.

The clutch model (with its 'power bar' etc) smacks of a game element that has been added in haste to appease some of the more vocal forum members who have been whining about the 'paddle shifter'/no lift advantage for a while now. Is it really any coincidence that it was introduced relatively soon after people began proclaiming the G25 faith?
This however is not. If it was something that everyone was complaining about then I'd concede the point. If driving normally burned the clutch in a couple of laps then yes there would be an issue with the engine itself. The fact that hundreds of people do thousands of races every day and still manage near- WR times regularly means that the vast majority of people have no problem with the clutch heating system. And not all of them use a G25. I never did. My wheel was a cheapo R440 and I never burnt the clutch in a race. Ever. And I suck at LFS!

On the subject of the "power bar" as you called it - it's just a temperature guage. Thermometers IRL have a bar that goes up and down when temperature changes too. Just because this one's orange doesn't mean it's not exactly the same.

[nihil]

If you feel the clutch is independent of everything else in LFS then no wonder you're burning them up all the time.

Just the sort of shitty attitude that has me coming here less and less frequently. Where did I say that I was burning up the clutch?

[ajp71]

Just the sort of shitty attitude that has me coming here less and less frequently. Where did I say that I was burning up the clutch?

Sorry probably bad use of English, I was trying to use 'you' as anybody not you in particular. Maybe if I had said:

'If someone feels the clutch is independent of everything else in LFS then no wonder they're burning them up all the time.'

You wouldn't be offended which was my point, saying the clutch isn't a logical part of putting the power to the road is just daft, it is an important part of the connection from the engine to the road and if people don't consider it to be part of the logical sequence of components that achieve this (and that can go wrong if used incorrectly) then they're going to have problems in a sim or reality. I'm sure IRL you'd never do any of these things to your road clutches because you can get a better sense of what seems right and wrong, in the same way you're far less likely to not notice you've got a wheel locked up IRL.

[Bladerunner]

Here is a SPR of me doing 5 quick (ish) laps at BL1, along with the Nilex set (FROM INFERNO!!!!)

Not exactly massive quick...average of 1.35.xx per lap, but there are wheelspins, missed gear changes, over revving...loads of "BAD" stuff....but just have a peek at the clutch temp as I cross the finish line..

Soro...why not try crossing your legs and speaking out of your mouth for a change?

[fragile_dog]

On the subject of the "power bar" as you called it - it's just a temperature guage. Thermometers IRL have a bar that goes up and down when temperature changes too. Just because this one's orange doesn't mean it's not exactly the same.

Doesn't that bar also show wear? The orange part is how much wear and tear it has (never goes down for me) when it goes red it means its so hot its slipping, this can be turned back to orange with careful drving.

The clutch may wear/overheat a bit quick when people abuse it, but normal racing conditions it just doesn't happen. I'm a crappy racer, using autoclutch and I can't get it to overheat in a normal race.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

no

[Bladerunner]

Just a quick "PS" to my post above..can anybody please tell me where I am losing so much time...my pb at BL1 is 1:35.07... a good 1.5 secs off the pace..I just cant work out where exactly I can improve.

Thx :D

[Gil07]

Doesn't that bar also show wear? The orange part is how much wear and tear it has (never goes down for me) when it goes red it means its so hot its slipping, this can be turned back to orange with careful drving.

The clutch may wear/overheat a bit quick when people abuse it, but normal racing conditions it just doesn't happen. I'm a crappy racer, using autoclutch and I can't get it to overheat in a normal race.

There is no clutch wear (yet) in LFS.

[fragile_dog]

so what is that bar then? and how does it work exactly? It can change to red no matter how far along the bar it is, and you can change it back to orange if you race normally, but ive not had it go down in size.

[Jakg]

It's Clutch TEMP - Red is the heat at which it will slip.

Auto Clutch on, and then pull away (from a stop) in top gear. You'll be at red in no time.

[AndroidXP]

It's just a temperature bar, and yes also when orange it will become smaller with time. The bar turning red happens on an arbitrary threshold value indicating that the clutch grip is now really bad, though the clutch bite also already degrades while it's still orange.

[J@tko]

Just a quick "PS" to my post above..can anybody please tell me where I am losing so much time...my pb at BL1 is 1:35.07... a good 1.5 secs off the pace..I just cant work out where exactly I can improve.

Thx :D

I'm not that fast round that combo, but in the demo days I must have driven at least 1000 laps so here goes:

IMO, you have a very relaxed driving style. U need to be much more aggressive on turn-in. For example at Turn 1, theres a huge gap between you finishing braking and then hitting the apex. Try and finish braking literally as you turn into the apex.

For the s-bend (Turns 4 and 5) you can be really aggressive with the kerbs - you can gain lots of time there.

Same as turn 1 for the next corner. The final corner is fine.

Your driving style is execptionally smooth, but you need to be more aggressive using kerbs and under braking. :thumbsup:

[Noccy]

Pretty much a non-discussion imo as there are people able to finish longer races without any real problems. Thus it points to flaws in your drivingstyle.
It would be another matter if no one was able to finish a long race without overheating the clutch or nursing it so u end up going 3seconds slower a lap..which isn't the case.

[bbman]

so what is that bar then? and how does it work exactly? It can change to red no matter how far along the bar it is, and you can change it back to orange if you race normally, but ive not had it go down in size.

The higher the difference between clutch temperature and ambient temperature, the faster it cools down... So you'd see it, you just didn't wait long enough or abused it further, producing heat again...

[fragile_dog]

No I didn't wait long enough, as soon as it went from red to orange I thought all was good, since I thought the orange bar was wear.
So what is the point in it turning red?

[ajp71]

It just changes colour to help you interpret how bad the clutch heat is.

[fragile_dog]

but that doesn't make sense, surly it would move up the bar if the clutch heat was that bad. Being a temp gauge and all.

[AndroidXP]

Seriously, what is so hard to understand about that? It's a temperature gauge that moves from left to right, and at a certain heat turns red to inform the user that the clutch is in a quite bad shape now and to ease off a bit.

[fragile_dog]

But it can turn red at any point along the bar, you can have the bar nearly full whilst still being orange, or less then a 1/4 full whilst being red. Doesn't seem to be anything that links the two.
Its not a problem cause like others had said, to over heat the clutch thats what you have to be aiming for.

[AndroidXP]

Please show me a case where it's almost full but still orange (you're not confusing this with the suspension damage bars, are you?) The clutches have different heat resistance depending on the car, but none of them go right up to the top. Most turn red at 1/5 to 1/4 of the bar filled.

[Speed Soro]

It doesn't make sense that the bargraph is just a temperature display, cause if so it could be just a rectangle (or a square or any other shape) with color variations.

It increases its lenght and changes its colour, so it just can indicates the wear, while the colour indicates the temperature rising (which is very very easy to rise up and very difficult to fall down).

Or it was made for daltonic people or monochromatic screens?

For something that should indicates something based in colours, it could start blue, not orange, I don't know...

[frokki]

(which is very very easy to rise up and very difficult to fall down).Inspired by bladerunner, I took that Nilex XFG set to Blackwood, started with full gas, flatshifted for 5 laps lifting the gas only when braking, even made a full throttle pit stop but couldn't heat it to red (even though it slipped a little bit after 10 minutes of brutal abuse).

Of course it's very very easy to heat up if you try it, you can really do it in 5 or 10 seconds. But you have to be a complete retard to accidentally fry it during a race. And now after that experiment I'm even more certain that it shouldn't cool down if it's red!

[March Hare]

It doesn't make sense that the bargraph is just a temperature display, cause if so it could be just a rectangle (or a square or any other shape) with color variations.
You sure do whine alot.

Did you finally realise that you actually were using the clutch wrong and now to save face you start to whine about the gauge?

The gauge is there to show the state of your clutch.

Only a bit of orange. = Fine keep on racing.
Lots of orange. = You might want to be a bit more sensitive.
Some red. = You are in trouble ease off.
Full red. = Now you done it. Learn to use the clutch properly.It's very informative and accurately shows the state of your clutch. Who gives a fetid dingo's kidneys what the actual measurement is.

Why aren't you, Soro, attacking the suspension damage gauges? They too only give information about how badly the suspension is damaged. The display doesn't say how the suspension arm is bent or in which direction. It just shows there is damage. Just like for the clutch.

[xaotik]

It doesn't make sense that the bargraph is just a temperature display, cause if so it could be just a rectangle (or a square or any other shape) with color variations.

The colour change is used instead of having a redline zone like you have in the RPM gauge. IRL I've seen such representation in some fancy digital VUmeters - when the signal goes out of bounds all the LEDs (or the backlit LCD display) change colour to red or yellow. It's sort of an instant visual cue that there's something amiss while still informing you generally of the signal level.

[ajp71]

It doesn't make sense that the bargraph is just a temperature display, cause if so it could be just a rectangle (or a square or any other shape) with color variations.

It increases its lenght and changes its colour, so it just can indicates the wear, while the colour indicates the temperature rising (which is very very easy to rise up and very difficult to fall down).


This is getting annoying. Get it into your brain that LFS does not simulate clutch wear. The clutch temperature bar shockingly shows clutch temperature. It simply changes colour at set points to show you the likely effect of your clutch being that hot.

If you just drive intelligently you won't be overheating the clutch in the first place, I'd love to see a replay showing what the hell you're doing.

[SamH]

Perhaps it WILL indicate both wear AND temperature, eventually, and is actually a one-gauge-indicates-all design. But right now LFS doesn't simulate wear.

[Juls]

OMG, I can't see anymore ! And I can't play piano, I can't sing... my life is over.

:bigeyes2:

[Boris Lozac]

FFS Sorro, post some replay already so we can see what the problem is. It would benefit you and the whole community if there is something really wrong. Isn't that the whole point? :really:

[Speed Soro]

Ok, LFS does not simulate clutch wear, I didn't know that, but the way that the clutch information is made, guides to wrong interpretation (once you don't know what it really means).

In a RPM gauge you have change of the colours and of the length of the bar, however the colour changes once that the bar reaches some point in the length.

The clutch bar changes the colours without change the length and vice-versa, so the common sense says that you get two independent informations on the same gauge.

And I'm not convinced that I'm wrong, and I still think that the clutch's behavior (heating/wearing or only heating, whatever) is wrong simulated, too exaggerated.

And I'm not bashing the LFS or anyone here, so stop bashing me. I keep the respect, you keep the respect.

[ajp71]

Are you sure the colour is independent of bar length?

[AMB]

Clutch is definately an issue, i was racing and i pitted in the FO8, came out of the pitbox with a overheated clutch and lost 2-3 secs a lap because of it, it should be a more heavy duty clutch although i like the clutch overheating idea, it just overheats too easy and also the clutch slips a lot on the FO8 and some other cars.

[Glenn67]

In a RPM gauge you have change of the colours and of the length of the bar, however the colour changes once that the bar reaches some point in the length.


And with different cars the rpm bar would change color differently for different engines. The same is true between different cars for the clutch heat bar as each car has different clutch characteristics.

it should be a more heavy duty clutch although i like the clutch overheating idea, it just overheats too easy and also the clutch slips a lot on the FO8 and some other cars.

If you make the clutches more heavy duty and then you don't need to think about mechanical sympathy then what's the point of having clutch heat in the first place :shrug:

Most people don't have an issue with the clutch overheating, just in some isolated circumstances. So that tells me it ok but anyways I'm sure it will get fine tuned along the way as its early days yet.

[SamH]

This thread is in an infinite loop of complete futility. I don't think anything new and/or useful has been brought to the thread since the first 2 pages. It's just more iteration and reiteration.

I'm going to make an executive decision to close the thread. If anyone has anything genuinely new/different to bring, feel free to PM me and I'll crack it open for them to post it. No timewasters please.