Round 2: Race Report & Penalties

[DeadWolfBones]

QUAL:
#02 S3Racing 1: DT after race start for chat in qual.
#14 My3id Gaming: Will start at rear due to shift-p & exiting pit lane during qual.
#12 Team XFR: Will start at rear due to shift-p & exiting pit lane during qual.
#19 spdoRacing: Qualified without ballast. Will start at rear.

RACE:
#27 Northstar R4R: shift-P = race over.
#11 Pernix Drivers: Crossing pit exit blend line, Drive through penalty
#11 Pernix Drivers: Not served DT penalty, Stop Go Penalty
#22 LFSLA: Contact while lapping another car, Stop Go Penalty
#14 My3id Gaming: Crossing pit exit blend line, Drive through penalty
#24 Speed Core: Crossing pit exit blend line, Drive through penalty
#02 S3 Racing: Chat: Drive through penalty

[srdsprinter]

Hey, someone Chatted "I'm out of Fuel" in qualifying

[DeadWolfBones]

Since it was a question directed at the admins for something the rules don't cover, we're letting that slide.

[srdsprinter]

........

[srdsprinter]

Since it was a question directed at the admins for something the rules don't cover, we're letting that slide.
Are they at least starting at the back

[DeadWolfBones]

Why would they?

[bdshan]

Well if they had read the rules they would know what to do.


3) Shift-P and Shift-S may not be used in qualifying except to end one’s session. For new tires or additional fuel, drivers must enter the pit lane and make a pit stop. No setup changes can be made aside from those in the F11 and F12 menus. Drivers may Shift-P or Shift-S and return to pit lane, but must not exit the pit lane.

[DeadWolfBones]

Well if they had read the rules they would know what to do.

Yes, but running out of fuel isn't an offense, it just means they finish with whatever lap they've completed at that point.

[Lotesdelere]

LFSW - new FZ5 PB by BenjiMC: 3:09.73 (new)

:D :p

[dawesdust_12]

eek... Fun on lap 1? :p

[LasseVP]

Watched @ LFS Remote.. and man that start didn't really looked clean.. :x:shy:

[Lotesdelere]

Tracker is down for Droemel and me.

Is it working for anyone else ?

[dawesdust_12]

Nah, and we got the worst of it, sam had almost un-drivable damage he reported to me, and was forced to pit, but struggled around.

[LasseVP]

Tracker is down for Droemel and me.

Is it working for anyone else ?

Working for a sec and when refresh its down.. and then after some time down again.

[DeadWolfBones]

Tracker is still recording data, but is not displaying for some reason. We're working on it.

[DeadWolfBones]

btw, coming to IRC will get you information quicker. ;]

[AstroBoy]

I know the tracker is down but what is the site for it?

[DeadWolfBones]

I know the tracker is down but what is the site for it?

Please don't ask for the address here. I'll PM it.

[AstroBoy]

My bad :(

[DeadWolfBones]

Tracker is back up. Names will regenerate after driver changes.

[nmanley]

We wish to report an incident between car 30 and car 13 on lap 20 LH' (Turn #4?). The #13 S.Hopkinson car a lap down ignores Blue flag and makes contact with the passing car #30. #30 has to collect car and gets passed by another lap down car in doing so.

[Z51L9889]

We wish to report an incident between car 02 and car 05 on lap 16 in the complex entering the oval. Car 02 was executing a pass on car 05 for position. Car 02 was completely alongside car 05 at the apex of the turn and was on the proper racing line when car 05 hit him in the side forcing him off the track and into a spin.

[DeadWolfBones]

Thanks, we'll look into it.

[nmanley]

:thumb:

[bdshan]

WHat is the deal with the 05 just sitting on the pit exit lane?

[dawesdust_12]

I dunno, I'd say that might have been a bad corner to pass in, because to let someone past (as sam had to do afterwards), you haffto slow down a lot to let someone past, it'd be better (IMO) to be patient and wait for the hairpin following that fast section to pass. Much safer that way.

[jasonmatthews]

Clutch damage, no drive, so waiting to cool...

[DeadWolfBones]

We wish to report an incident between car 02 and car 05 on lap 16 in the complex entering the oval. Car 02 was executing a pass on car 05 for position. Car 02 was completely alongside car 05 at the apex of the turn and was on the proper racing line when car 05 hit him in the side forcing him off the track and into a spin.


Both cars went into the corner side by side. 05 left room for 02, but 02 appeared to hit the curbing and push a bit, then ran into the side of the 05 and spun. Racing incident, no penalty.

mprEdited replay attached.

[dawesdust_12]

Lap 30: F.Enersen/R.Dario (Both of us unsure), tapped him while passing him under Blue.

[DeadWolfBones]

Lap 30: F.Enersen/R.Dario (Both of us unsure), tapped him while passing him under Blue.

Not sure what exactly you're reporting here...

[SamH]

Dustin means that, when I let Stu Whitehead through, whoever behind ran me off the track. I gave good room, but didn't even see them coming at me. We just changed driver, hence Dustin's hurried post.

[Scott_Michaels]

Wow, that was interesting!
The start was awful. I don't know why but the field spread right out through the last corner then bunched really badly after that. I saw it coming and started braking carefully and early but i underestimated the level of bunching. Managed to slip through a gap for minimal damage but there was a massive wreck behind me. Don't know who caused the spreading out but that has got to be avoided next time. Its a 4 hour race for Christ's sake there's no reason to anticipate the start.
Unfortunatley, in my haste to fit dinner in between qual and the race I forgot to fill the fuel up so started with 30%. No problem I'll just fill it up when it gets low or if we get a safety car. Unfortunatley I got in some really great battles and was despirate to make it to the top 10 but forgot about the fuel! So I ran out. Then I got mixed up between the disco rule and the shift-p rule so i tried to rejoin the race, big apologies for that.
Anyway, it was fun while it lasted. Maybe at some point this season Joe will get to drive!!!
Cya next time.

[DeadWolfBones]

Wow, that was interesting!
The start was awful. I don't know why but the field spread right out through the last corner then bunched really badly after that. I saw it coming and started braking carefully and early but i underestimated the level of bunching. Managed to slip through a gap for minimal damage but there was a massive wreck behind me. Don't know who caused the spreading out but that has got to be avoided next time. Its a 4 hour race for Christ's sake there's no reason to anticipate the start.
Unfortunatley, in my haste to fit dinner in between qual and the race I forgot to fill the fuel up so started with 30%. No problem I'll just fill it up when it gets low or if we get a safety car. Unfortunatley I got in some really great battles and was despirate to make it to the top 10 but forgot about the fuel! So I ran out. Then I got mixed up between the disco rule and the shift-p rule so i tried to rejoin the race, big apologies for that.
Anyway, it was fun while it lasted. Maybe at some point this season Joe will get to drive!!!
Cya next time.

That's some terrible luck. You were really doing well there, moving on up.

We'll take a look at the replay of the start and try to address whatever caused that. We implemented a new start procedure so that the leader gradually accelerates toward the green, but I was so busy messing with the tracker that I didn't get to watch it.

[DeadWolfBones]

Dustin means that, when I let Stu Whitehead through, whoever behind ran me off the track. I gave good room, but didn't even see them coming at me. We just changed driver, hence Dustin's hurried post.

I'll take a look.

[Z51L9889]

Both cars went into the corner side by side. 05 left room for 02, but 02 appeared to hit the curbing and push a bit, then ran into the side of the 05 and spun. Racing incident, no penalty.

mprEdited replay attached.

Thanks for checking. :thumb:

[DeadWolfBones]

Dustin means that, when I let Stu Whitehead through, whoever behind ran me off the track. I gave good room, but didn't even see them coming at me. We just changed driver, hence Dustin's hurried post.

#22 LFSLA: SG penalty for avoidable contact while lapping #13 UKCT.

[Locovich]

ok... now... can someone explain me why is so necessary to drive so close in the start/finish line of the FIRST lap?? car #2 hit me damaging my suspension.... i had to pit because of that.... can´t understand... its a 4hs race, men!!:shrug:

[Locovich]

#22 LFSLA: SG penalty for avoidable contact while lapping #13 UKCT.

can you tell me in what lap that happend? i´m quite sure i didn´t hit anyone.... i was alone almost all the stint....:shrug:

[BreadC]

That's some terrible luck. You were really doing well there, moving on up.

We'll take a look at the replay of the start and try to address whatever caused that. We implemented a new start procedure so that the leader gradually accelerates toward the green, but I was so busy messing with the tracker that I didn't get to watch it.

we did :)

but people behind i cant say as i was busy trying to get p1 at green lol

[Starblue]

Pit stop duration has been removed from the tracker page as it wasn't 100% correct.

Starblue

[DeadWolfBones]

can you tell me in what lap that happend? i´m quite sure i didn´t hit anyone.... i was alone almost all the stint....:shrug:

You were following the 06 (Concept Racing) car past #13, UKCT in the double right hand infield bit. Inbetween the two kinks you lost control a little and slid into #13, sending him hard into the wall. Replay attached (first lap of replay).

http://www.mediafire.com/?mxyudz2zwsh

[Locovich]

ah... lap #30... well... its not the point to complaint because we just made the SG... but, 1st: it was a bad lag situation, and 2nd, i DID release fully the throttle and the car oversteered, trying to control it is when i "hit" him.... it was not a "ram"....
excuse me for all the situation.... it was not intentional... and i´m not sure it was "avoidable"...:shrug:

[AstroBoy]

Cars 16 and 04 just had contact around 1hour 40 minutes. Didnt see who was at fault as the remote isnt very handy at that but just thought it be worth a mention.

[DeadWolfBones]

ah... lap #30... well... its not the point to complaint because we just made the SG... but, 1st: it was a bad lag situation, and 2nd, i DID release fully the throttle and the car oversteered, trying to control it is when i "hit" him.... it was not a "ram"....
excuse me for all the situation.... it was not intentional... and i´m not sure it was "avoidable"...:shrug:

I understand, it's an iffy situation.

But our belief is that in losing control of the car you take responsibility for the situation. It was borderline, but this was our decision.

[Locovich]

where is the tracker? the one i have is not working.... can someone send me a pm?:shy:

[Locovich]

I understand, it's an iffy situation.

But our belief is that in losing control of the car you take responsibility for the situation. It was borderline, but this was our decision.



No problem... i´m not complaining.... just giving my vision, and offering my excuse...:nod:

[DeadWolfBones]

where is the tracker? the one i have is not working.... can someone send me a pm?:shy:

Still having issues. Your URL is probably correct if you got it today.

edit: back up. :P

[Locovich]

Still having issues. Your URL is probably correct if you got it today.

edit: back up. :P

yeap, i got it today... so we´ll wait until is fixed. But, i think there was not many disconnections, so track position is quite right...:)

[The Moose]

number 16 T.Mohammed, lagging badly and caused a crash with concept 06 due to it. lap 74 ish.

EDIT touched someone else two laps later....lag is too dangerous

[srdsprinter]

Where's your pentalty for chatting "lol" DWB?
Where's the pentalty for the chatter in qualifying? He didn't know the rules so he gets a pass?

[DeadWolfBones]

number 16 T.Mohammed, lagging badly and caused a crash with concept 06 due to it. lap 74 ish.

EDIT touched someone else two laps later....lag is too dangerous

We are asking the #16 to park it.

[dawesdust_12]

I also had magnitudes of problems with his erratic driving, which caused me to suffer a grave amount of suspension damage by hitting those stupid bumps (and then I did it again, which made my setup faster... :S)

[DeadWolfBones]

We are asking the #16 to park it.

I'm sure you saw the chat. His lag situation seems to be corrected.

[srdsprinter]

Brilliant, so where's his pentalty also? Do we not remeber the TS or Vent Servers that are available?

[BenjiMC]

An admin initiated the chat, for a valid reason.

[srdsprinter]

I don't call "Park your car" initiating a conversation.

BUT IF YOU DO:

I CONSIDER DWB SAYING "LOL" as initiating a conversation with me where a valid response would be ":)"

[dawesdust_12]

Honestly, why are we being such sticklers about chat. It's not that signifigant. I do agree that if you don't now go "AHA! CHAT" you'll have issues that other leagues have, where entire conversations happen. I think that how its happening currently is OK TBH, and there's no need to enforce it more or less. A good medium between communication and chaos.

[DeadWolfBones]

Honestly, why are we being such sticklers about chat. It's not that signifigant. I do agree that if you don't now go "AHA! CHAT" you'll have issues that other leagues have, where entire conversations happen. I think that how its happening currently is OK TBH, and there's no need to enforce it more or less. A good medium between communication and chaos.

I've seen how quickly arguments ensue when you don't punish chatting.

The issue is that drivers need to be able to have chat un-blocked to get important info from the admins, but shouldn't be spammed, causing loss of conversation. I only chat with a driver when absolutely necessary (barring "lol", which was an unconscious reaction to something being said on Vent when I typed it).

[srdsprinter]

Honestly, why are we being such sticklers about chat. It's not that signifigant. I do agree that if you don't now go "AHA! CHAT" you'll have issues that other leagues have, where entire conversations happen. I think that how its happening currently is OK TBH, and there's no need to enforce it more or less. A good medium between communication and chaos.
except when my big f'ing thumb slides off the escape and hits 'F1' when i'm disconnecting from the server, not even in the car, and get a pentalty.

[dawesdust_12]

... Is it just me that sees J.Basford (Clownpaint) as a lag icon while coming onto the ovally bits?

(Tracker is recording his laps, but he was a lag icon while I was driving, and Sam reports a lag icon there too.)

[srdsprinter]

I've seen how quickly arguments ensue when you don't punish chatting.

The issue is that drivers need to be able to have chat un-blocked to get important info from the admins, but shouldn't be spammed, causing loss of conversation. I only chat with a driver when absolutely necessary (barring "lol", which was an unconscious reaction to something being said on Vent when I typed it).

Come on then, step up and penalize the guy for chatting during qualifying.

Your lol was less of an accident than my finger sliding off the escape key, yet you haven't so much as apologized for it.

[Lotesdelere]

... Is it just me that sees J.Basford (Clownpaint) as a lag icon while coming onto the ovally bits?

(Tracker is recording his laps, but he was a lag icon while I was driving, and Sam reports a lag icon there too.)
Yep same here.

Works fine in the tracker and the LFSW progress window but he appears as being stuck on LFS remote.

[DeadWolfBones]

Come on then, step up and penalize the guy for chatting during qualifying.

Your lol was less of an accident than my finger sliding off the escape key, yet you haven't so much as apologized for it.

Alright, I'm sorry about that. I'd penalize myself if I could. :shrug:

We've discussed the qualifying chat issue already.

[srdsprinter]

Well then, you're officially making the rules up as you go then. Congratulations :thumb:

[dawesdust_12]

CP lagging again.

[DeadWolfBones]

Taken care of.

[DeadWolfBones]

#03 Adaptive Racing is not showing on the tracker because d6nn was not entered properly, however we will manually correct this after the race. The in-race running order is correct with respect to their car.

[SamH]

Well then, you're officially making the rules up as you go then. Congratulations :thumb:
This whinging is the strongest argument against allowing chat in the server, tbh.

[srdsprinter]

This whinging is the strongest argument against allowing chat in the server, tbh.
? I'm not for allowing chat in the server. The fact that if someone doesn't know the rules, chats and gets away with it, than why shouldn't the errant slip of a exiting driver's finger be forgiven?

[nmanley]

There is a lot going on when changing drivers if your trying like hell to have some strategy your changing all kinds of crap coming in the pits. :scratchch

Once a driver has left the car and disconnect within the split second of a chat is should be considered a judgment call. It makes it better for arguments and also allow the official to correct a quick call when he knows, back in his mind, it was an accident and to NO advantage. :nod:

Now, about another issue, How come there was this BIG ass wreck on the start of the race and the SAFETY CAR was not used to clean up the situation. What the heck is it for if not to USE in THAT situation. A lot of people lost a lap or more then and made the start of a good 4hr event pure shit. :razz:

Rant over. :thumb: Good job on chasing done all the BS that goes with a racing event like this. :D

[SamH]

Dunno. Not my shout, it's the admins'. If they let one go during quali and don't let another go during the race, then that's what they decide. They're the admins, afterall. :shrug:

[DeadWolfBones]

Listen, you knew the rules against chatting going into the race.

If you don't want the possibility of an accidental chat, you can delete your binds. I and most other enduro drivers have done so for this very reason.

edit: And, usually, done so after getting burned in a situation like this.

[srdsprinter]

Listen, you knew the rules against chatting going into the race. As should have the driver who chatted in qualifying, but:

If you don't want the possibility of an accidental chat, you can delete your binds. I and most other enduro drivers have done so for this very reason.

And if as admin you can let one slide, you can let another. BTW, there is no possible way you could know if "most other enduro drivers" have deleted all their binds.

Dunno. Not my shout, it's the admins'. If they let one go during quali and don't let another go during the race, then that's what they decide. They're the admins, afterall.

Hence my post ;)

Whatever, onwards and upwards. :thumb:

[DeadWolfBones]

As should have the driver who chatted in qualifying, but:

And if as admin you can let one slide, you can let another. BTW, there is no possible way you could know if "most other enduro drivers" have deleted all there binds.

Most that I have spoken to about the matter. Most in MoE, anyway.

I'm still not sure what qual incident you're talking about if not the one with the car who ran out of fuel. And if you can't understand why I allowed that one, I don't know what to tell you.

[srdsprinter]

Most that I have spoken to about the matter. Most in MoE, anyway.

I'm still not sure what qual incident you're talking about if not the one with the car who ran out of fuel. And if you can't understand why I allowed that one, I don't know what to tell you.

He broke the rules as much as anyone else. Ignorance or not, he got special treatment. I already posted what I want you to admit to all of us, but anyway:


Whatever, onwards and upwards. :thumb:

[srdsprinter]

Great Race All! Congrats to Core and the rest of the podium!

[Locovich]

well.... we were racing car #7 in a good battle for place 14 or 15 i think.... when i get a damn disconnection....:( baaaaaaahhhhhhh.....

Congrats Core Racing for the victory!!! :thumb:

[The Moose]

Grats to the podium guys :thumb:

That was a really fun race from my perspective.:)
Thoroughly enjoyed chasing down the Adaptive Racing (i think) car in my final stint, closing a 40 odd second gap to get him. That kept the motivation up:D

Good job all, looked nice and clean from what i saw of the race.

Thanks to the Admins as usual.

[srdjanmilasinovic]

Grats to the winners!!! SHD definitly don't have luck with connection, in last 20 minutes of all race 4 time lost connection ILKE, then I went on track and drive on mouse last 10 minutes. :(:(:(

[Who Cares]

car #16 T.Mohammed had more than one issue to get a handle on this night... :scratchch

In Qual ha exited the pits and drove straight out in the raceline just in front of me destroying my 1'st attempt... A little more awareness would be apreciated in the future... :smileypul

[BigTime]

If you don't want the possibility of an accidental chat, you can delete your binds. I and most other enduro drivers have done so for this very reason.

That's the reason why I'm for server communication on a whole but for a league, everything just runs better the way it is...

[SamH]

I run a competition version of LFS when I'm doing stuff like this race. It has almost no binds, the graphics are optimised, skins are low res (for the start grid, when you start as far back as UKCT does), the screen res is just enough to race with and every other optimisation I can think of to ensure trouble-free competition racing. :shrug:

[BenjiMC]

I've had a look at the incident on the race start. It seems it was firstly caused by lag, one car momentarily disappeared and the car following had to brake heavily. This basically caused a concertina effect which culminated in 18 and 10 colliding. The collision was also partly due to a few drivers doing around 100 mph (160 kph) which is too high a speed. I'd suggest for future races as a guideline drivers keep between 50-70 mph (90-115 kph) although there is the obvious exception of some corners, such as SO longs hairpin. This should stop drivers from having to catch up to the car in front before a race start, which is 50% of what caused this incident.

[AMB]

Bit of a crazy race for my team, my team mate Jarda done the first hour, and in my stint I had 3 DT's 1 Stop and Go, and a blown tyre, also next stiny jarda had a DT and blown tyre, and the stint after i had another blown tyre, so i need to work on my endurance quite a lot, this was also my first IGTC race, i enjoyed it, but i think T.Mohamad should have a penalty for talking, just like i did when i asked how long a stop go was,

[DeadWolfBones]

Bit of a crazy race for my team, my team mate Jarda done the first hour, and in my stint I had 3 DT's 1 Stop and Go, and a blown tyre, also next stiny jarda had a DT and blown tyre, and the stint after i had another blown tyre, so i need to work on my endurance quite a lot, this was also my first IGTC race, i enjoyed it, but i think T.Mohamad should have a penalty for talking, just like i did when i asked how long a stop go was,

Your chat penalty was for "ffs."

[okijuhans]

I had a little accident in the first lap. I am new to IGTC and maybe I was too close to the driver before me, but i hold the distance and brake in the right time. The driver behind me (10 B.Gouga) just slammed brakes and slided into me. Then I had 180. After that I was standing and letting the 08, 27, 13 pass me. Then 14 T.Scheler had lag and had impact with 09 M.Pisko. In addition I flew again because M.Pisko was standing next to me. My front suspension was damaged and wheel wasnt in the right place. It was 90 degrees turned all the time to the right.

here are pictures to prove it :

1st picture - i have right distance with the driver ahead of me , but 10 B.Couga hasnt - you can see the length of brake lines
http://pes.pri.ee/kraam/accident/1.JPG

2nd picture A little better view.
http://pes.pri.ee/kraam/accident/2.JPG

3rd picture What happened then :
http://pes.pri.ee/kraam/accident/3.JPG

4th picture I was letting some people to pass me. Look @ my speed.
http://pes.pri.ee/kraam/accident/5.JPG

5th picture The lagman
http://pes.pri.ee/kraam/accident/6.JPG

6th picture Conclusion
http://pes.pri.ee/kraam/accident/7.JPG

[Dimitry Gerards]

Grats to the podium guys :thumb:

That was a really fun race from my perspective.:)
Thoroughly enjoyed chasing down the Adaptive Racing (i think) car in my final stint, closing a 40 odd second gap to get him. That kept the motivation up:D

Good job all, looked nice and clean from what i saw of the race.

Thanks to the Admins as usual.

Nah that was me you were chasing..... I had to swap to R4 tyres on the front for my last stint (normally R3) and they got very cold almost black) for the last 10 minutes or so... they were also going to get a puncture very soon so I was nursing the car home and controlled my gap with you :). My 2nd last lap was a 1:44... then I did a 1:39 in the last lap... my car was understeering badly at the time and nearly impossible to drive around the corners. But the race shouldn't have lasted a lap longer! :thumb:

[The Moose]

Nah that was me you were chasing.....


It was the AR car i was mainly chasing for the last hour. I got by him with about 7 mins to go and my teammate said "don't bother pushing, the next guy is uncatchable...15 seconds gap" so i eased off for a lap as my tires were looking thin.

Then he spotted your laptimes and i went for it again, unfortunately the lap i had eased off cost me.

I still thought i was going to get you but you managed to slip by the backmarker just before the turn on to the oval but he wasn't quite so accommodating for me.

That was great fun chasing you and the AR car down:)..i really had to push and luckily this time round we had looked after the engine properly and had no damage at all to worry about in the final hour.

Our setup was slightly slow for the first 20 mins of each stint, then it just got better and better for the next 40 mins. Thanks to the team for getting the base set really good. (i came in at the last minute and made minor tweaks.....good job guys!)

I have to mention my old sparring partner F.Enerson:thumbsup: I had a really great battle with him in the first stint, probably the most fun part of the race for me. He's just one of those guys i totally trust to go wheel to wheel with. Hard and fair, just how i like my racing:nod:

After some bad luck in the first round at Blackwood, and an ultimately disappointing finishing result, we have to be happy with the progress made this time round. 8th was a great finish all things considered. Should have been 7th , but that's racing for you, there's always could haves, should haves and what might have beens :D

[Megin]

I had a little accident in the first lap. I am new to IGTC and maybe I was too close to the driver before me, but i hold the distance and brake in the right time. The driver behind me (10 B.Gouga) just slammed brakes and slided into me. Then I had 180. After that I was standing and letting the 08, 27, 13 pass me. Then 14 T.Scheler had lag and had impact with 09 M.Plsko. In addition I flew again because M.Pisko was standing next to me. My front suspension was damaged and wheel wasnt in the right place. It was 90 degrees turned all the time to the right.


Whole incident was wery unlucky for us! First I (09 M.Plsko) have to notice that I brahe in time and I don't touch u after u turn 180 degree. Than u make move forward to me and you move me a little bit back and than came big impact to my rear. After that my front was turn to wall. I had big damage at right rear and i had to go carefuly to the pits. Early after my pitstop that i was lapped and that was another handicap of collision in 1st lap.

Here is my replay (only 1st lap)

[AMB]

Your chat penalty was for "ffs."
Ahh ok your right, forgot about that :) :thumb:

[nmanley]

I've had a look at the incident on the race start. It seems it was firstly caused by lag, one car momentarily disappeared and the car following had to brake heavily. This basically caused a concertina effect which culminated in 18 and 10 colliding. The collision was also partly due to a few drivers doing around 100 mph (160 kph) which is too high a speed. I'd suggest for future races as a guideline drivers keep between 50-70 mph (90-115 kph) although there is the obvious exception of some corners, such as SO longs hairpin. This should stop drivers from having to catch up to the car in front before a race start, which is 50% of what caused this incident.

I have a problem with officiating that takes LAG into too much consideration. Anyone that thinks the replay catches RACE LAG correctly and replays it the same for different people on different systems is making a large mistake. Yes, Lag happens but the replay is not CONCLUSIVE.
I have made a statement in an earlier post that cold have cleaned up the start problem AFTER it happened but no one wants to address it.
Now, about another issue, How come there was this BIG ass wreck on the start of the race and the SAFETY CAR was not used to clean up the situation. What the heck is it for if not to USE in THAT situation. A lot of people lost a lap or more then and made the start of a good 4hr event pure shit.

It's used in real racing all the time in that situation.

[BenjiMC]

As i said lag wasn't the only cause but it was definatly the trigger. i have viewed the replay at least 7 times and the lag occurred every time. Bare in mind the replay is also from the server, not my computer so what you see is what you get pretty much.

Anyway if you want a simple summary of events


Lag of 07.
flat foot of the car behind lead to heavy braking.
Concertina through the whole pack behind them.
18 gets spun by 10, again heavy footed drivers caused this.
lack of awareness from cars behind led to the final big shunt

[nmanley]

Thanks Benji, that covers that.

I just watched the start two times and I'm pretty sure the accident back near the rear of the field happened BEFORE the GREEN FLAG message that started the race. There should have been a restart or SC to let those who got SCREWED, like one of my drivers did, by the incident to have a decent race start.

Scratch that in red, apparently my teammates car does not see a green flag till after he gets started again after the crash fest. I assume he has to cross an invisible line on the track before he sees the green flag message as the leaders got it way before my driver did. Crazy damn simulator. :shrug:

I know that race administrating is not easy but, I'll not be over this for a while and justified so. :smileypul

[nmanley]

Actually went back and looked again. It was close but the wreck happened as follows:

Wreck in progress at 2:45 lap #1.
Leader gets green at 2:47.

Should have been a SC period at least to bunch up the field again and give those who suffered a chance to recover, Lag or no lag.

Too late now but if it's even close in the future I'd like the admins to make sure we have a close field at the start of the event and after ANY SC period no matter how many times it takes to get everyone on the SAME sheet of paper with starting one of these events correctly. :thumb:

Too many hours goes into an event like this by all involved to not use the tools we have to make it better.

[DeadWolfBones]

We appreciate your situation here Nolan and share your concern. The start to this race was a bit hectic, with me scrambling to get the tracker started properly (after forgetting to add a team until the field started rolling). I finally got it going about 5s before I gave the field the green, and the 5s gap was of course used to bring up the menu to throw the green.

Thus I didn't see the accident going on, and neither did Benji as he was driving the SC. Once I gave the green I switched to watch the leaders go through T1 (watching for trouble) and it wasn't until they were on the way to the lefthand sweeper that I heard Benji say "looks like there was some trouble in the back." By this time it was more difficult to estimate how big the wreck had been, since everyone was already moving again.

Obviously these weren't ideal circumstances, but we should have had someone notice the trouble sooner. At that point we had only myself, Benji, Burnsy, and Starblue (who was also working on the tracker at that point). Rooble joined later.

Now... as to whether the accident should have brought out the SC:

The rule on the books says that one criteria for a SC coming out is that "a portion of the track is badly obstructed or an incident involves a majority of teams." I have not done an exact count, but I gather this incident included 5-7 teams out of 28. For comparison, the restart incident at BL1 included literally half of the field or more, which is why it brought out the SC and why it's the only non-flipping/non-fuel/non-stranded related SC that's been thrown. So on that criteria this incident would not have counted.

That said, since it happened before the green, we would ideally have aborted the start and taken another lap at SC speed. However, as you pointed out, there was only a 2s gap between the incident and the green flag being given, which is not much time to react and delay the green.

In short, in a perfect world the start would have been waved off, but circumstances conspired to prevent that. Hopefully circumstances will be kinder in the future.

[okijuhans]

It wasn`t so huge crash. SC wasnt needed.

[dawesdust_12]

I think it was, it screwed about 1/4 of the field out of a clean start, and the race hadn't even really started.

[SamH]

It wasn`t so huge crash. SC wasnt needed.
For those who it affected, it was a huge crash. It was also so close to the beginning of the race (perhaps even before it) that it would have been reasonable and fair to those involved if the race had been restarted.

Perhaps it just wasn't so huge for you.

[MR_B]

I would have called for a red flag. Or safety car.

[dawesdust_12]

I would have deployed the secret ramp, so cars that were behind, could have avoided the inital wreck.

[srdsprinter]

Secret ramp FTW.

IMO, it sounds as if obviously the organizers were not prepared to go green that lap (based on the tracker troubles). Another lap under caution would not have hurt anyone, and allowed the marshalls to get into position to actually marshall, and perhaps avoid many teams' races being significantly screwed before the green flag.

[rcpilot]

I would have called for a red flag. Or safety car.
Would've could've should've. This is a little blunt, but the fact is that none of the admins properly saw what happened and none of the teams involved brought the true nature of it to the attention of the admins until way too late. Unless there's a specific rule change to discuss here, there's not much to discuss at all. This isn't like a real race where you have many sets of eyes on the entire track at all times, we have just a few with a relatively limited viewpoint due to the nature of the game. If you think something's gone wrong and the admins haven't noticed, the onus is on you as always to bring this to the admin's attention in a timely fashion.

[srdsprinter]

- Admins admitedly weren't prepared
- Admins were watching leaders (mid-back pack would be much more sensible)

It is Not the drivers responsibility to call the SC out.

The procedure needs to be evaluated, and revised. My quick fixes:

SC - Pull off and park Before Green. Tab to view Last Place Car. (after clean start 1/2 lap, return to pit stall)

Other admin(s) watch mid-pack, as obviously the need is not to find any onus of blame at this point, but to become aware of any endangering situations.

[rcpilot]

- Admins admitedly weren't prepared
- Admins were watching leaders (mid-back pack would be much more sensible)

It is Not the drivers responsibility to call the SC out.

The procedure needs to be evaluated, and revised. My quick fixes:

SC - Pull off and park Before Green. Tab to view Last Place Car. (after clean start 1/2 lap, return to pit stall)

Other admin(s) watch mid-pack, as obviously the need is not to find any onus of blame at this point, but to become aware of any endangering situations.
It's not the responsibility of the drivers to call the SC out, but it is rather unhelpful to come back many hours later and complain about something (non-constructively just asking for blood for the most part) that the admins had no clue about that cannot be repaired way after the fact. Plus, it's standard practice in these leagues to bring things to the attention of the admins asap if something's out of whack and they haven't noticed.

The fact that none of the teams did report anything substantial at the time is rather telling. If no one immediately said 'Wait a minute, that crash happened before the green flag' and they were even involved in it, you can't seriously blame the admins for not noticing the nature of the wreck.

On the other hand, the admins could've been a bit more organized, but the best spot to watch the ENTIRE field is from a tv cam from the front. In the future multiple admins could be more coordinated to watch multiple parts of the pack, but you're still limited by algorithms that decide the view of the tv cam. Because of this, the 2 admins available (at least at the time during this race) just cannot reliably physically cover an entire strung out pack during a rolling start.

[srdsprinter]

No way. Sorry, you're wrong. The admins should have spread their vision of the field and not been worrying about the tracker. If they couldn't another lap under SC would've worked fine. Sadly they were not, so we can try and figure what to fix for next time.

You're essentially saying "the admins are responsible for watching out forthe leaders, everyone else doesn't matter / fend for yourselves."

If something happens at the back, as was the case, it is missed watching the front.
If watching the back, even a leader spinning would be seen.

Yes, these guys could have scrambled to vent and told the admins, but they assumed the admins were watching the field, not both fixated on the leaders.

Either way, there is a lot of things that could have been improved in how the admins handled the start of the race, and I think we can all work to better the procedures to ensure everyone (even the mid-back pack) gets a fair shot at a clean start.

[BenjiMC]

The leader has to be followed to make sure that the obey the new Restart rules of gradually speeding up. DWB had to do 2 jobs rather than the one job of starting the tracker he usually does, since i normally monitor the race starts and throw the green. So thats also hardly his fault, we were just a man down at the time (Kaw usually drives the Safety Car).

Normally there are more admins
DWB had to do more jobs than usual. The tracker and SC insim are seperate, so it takes a lot of time to get them both going for one person.
It's something thats never happened before and i definatly wouldn't expect a crash before the green was shown.The fact is it happened and that we (the admins) did not have enough eyes to watch all of the pack. One was driving the SC, 2 where starting the tracker, one of which had to switch insim programs mid race start (DWB). Leaving just one admin, who has never seen an IGTC race start, to monitor the field effectively. There is both a Ventrilo AND Teamspeak channel which team members can use and alert us to situations. Throughout the whole race only 1 person joined the Teamspeak and Ventrilo channel. It's all good saying the admins should be watching here, there and everywhere but we aren't super human beings that can predict where to look. Especially when we are down 2 admins it makes life very difficult so for future rounds it might be worth a few drivers joining our VOIP channels where you can help notify us of similar situations.

[bdshan]

for future rounds it might be worth a few drivers joining our VOIP channels where you can help notify us of similar situations.

+1

[DeadWolfBones]

Well said, Benji.

In addition, I'd like to reiterate that in a perfect scenario we would have waved off the start, which would have given the cars who crashed time to repair and re-join the tail of the field. However, circumstances were far from ideal and this was the result.

I don't think the start policies require much modification beyond what Benji has proposed elsewhere regarding ways to avoid accordion effects in the pack. We just need to have all marshals present and doing the correct jobs, and things should go smoothly.

And we also need the drivers to do their part. This is not an attempt to blame all drivers involved for what happened. It was a racing incident, and though there is a root cause somewhere, it would be a very difficult one to accurately ferret out. Suffice it to say that proper spacing, careful observation of the cars ahead, and good reaction times can prevent a lot of accidents like these (especially on a track as wide and forgiving as KY2).

[MR_B]

Would've could've should've. This is a little blunt, but the fact is that none of the admins properly saw what happened and none of the teams involved brought the true nature of it to the attention of the admins until way too late. Unless there's a specific rule change to discuss here, there's not much to discuss at all. This isn't like a real race where you have many sets of eyes on the entire track at all times, we have just a few with a relatively limited viewpoint due to the nature of the game. If you think something's gone wrong and the admins haven't noticed, the onus is on you as always to bring this to the admin's attention in a timely fashion.

Calm down deary, don't get your knickers in a twist.

Blunt/ to the point/ abrupt/ K.I.S.S "Keep It Simple Stupid" whatever you want to call it. Some people don't need to write a book of verbal diahhrea to make a simple point.

With regards to the actual content of your reply. I've admined many races and you never sit and watch just one car. You're forever scrolling through the cars to pick up on close vehicles and mainly spinners. The map is also a useful tool in helping spot incidents. It didn't have to be an instant "Red Flag" or "Safety Car" but there was 3 admins on that server. More than enough to spot such an incident.

But yes, we're wasting time over trifles here so onwards and upwards... To round three! :bike:

Edit: Just read admin's replies, strike doesn't work on this server.

[rcpilot]

No way. Sorry, you're wrong. The admins should have spread their vision of the field and not been worrying about the tracker. If they couldn't another lap under SC would've worked fine. Sadly they were not, so we can try and figure what to fix for next time.

The tracker's kind of required, but it would've probably been smart to have us go around another lap instead of getting it sorted just in time.

You're essentially saying "the admins are responsible for watching out forthe leaders, everyone else doesn't matter / fend for yourselves."

No, I corrected you when you disregarded the fact that the leaders are just as important to watch as mid-field. A wreck is less likely up front, but if you want them to watch the entire field and admin everything on their own at the start of the race, they need to watch the front too.

If something happens at the back, as was the case, it is missed watching the front.
If watching the back, even a leader spinning would be seen.

If a leader takes himself out during the start, does that warrant a safety car? How would the admins know the facts surrounding the incident if all they see is a spun-out/wrecked car as the field goes by?

Yes, these guys could have scrambled to vent and told the admins, but they assumed the admins were watching the field, not both fixated on the leaders.

It's standard practice to give the admins heads up. I don't know why you guys have this idea in your head that the admins are omniscient. Part of being successful in league racing is being well organized and working with the rules to your favor. If we were involved in an incident like this, someone from our team would be announcing it to the admins within ~30 seconds.

Either way, there is a lot of things that could have been improved in how the admins handled the start of the race, and I think we can all work to better the procedures to ensure everyone (even the mid-back pack) gets a fair shot at a clean start.

Agreed, but some of this is quite unrealistic in implementation.


The admins cannot keep track of everything on track. If anything this is more of a 'what can we admins do better' issue than a rule issue, but in the end there is no perfect solution using the resources available and as such it's a requirement in this form of racing to point out rule infractions when you see them.

Most of us on the team have multiple forms of contact open with the admins in every race, especially an endurance event. And not just in leagues where our teammates are helping admin. There shouldn't be a 'scramble' to go tell the admins, there should just be a 'hey, look at this, such and such happened' as you casually go to your chat program etc.

[srdsprinter]

Most of your stuff is valid RC, but my point is this:

Watching the front of the field on starts/restart, it's possible to miss a Major crash in the back.

Watching the back of the field, you'd still see a major crash that starts at the front.

Outside of the smooth start, the point is not looking out for one driver, it's to see the big picture. IMO this was proven, by the missed start.

It make life slightly easier to communicate with the admins when they're sharing your ventrilo server, but yes that avenue is there.

IF you ever find yourself short-handed as admins again: perhaps allowing 1-2 extra spectators into the server and on your vent to help watch the start could be beneficial.

[BenjiMC]

As i said, there are both Teamspeak AND Ventrilo servers there for everyone to use. it's not a matter of convenience but more a matter of being arsed to use them (although Stu is one of those people that used Ventrilo for a moment). The information is there for everyone to use. I am always on both during a race so i see no reason why nobody else can be.

[DeadWolfBones]

Stu, we also have IRC and MSN/AIM as means for communication. I haven't seen any S3R guys yet on IRC. We highly recommend it.

Pointing the camera downfield toward the leaders is just as effective as pointing it upfield at the rear of the field, in terms of seeing the entire line of cars (i.e., not very).

[burnsy1882]

alright, ease it up a bit here. i'll take the blame, as i was the PC at the back of the field. since it was my first time helping the admins out, i didn't really know what to do, and TBH, the incident cleared itself up after ~10s. i was also going "by the book", so didn't see anybody flipped or anything, but now after hindsight, should have said something.

[rcpilot]

alright, ease it up a bit here. i'll take the blame, as i was the PC at the back of the field. since it was my first time helping the admins out, i didn't really know what to do, and TBH, the incident cleared itself up after ~10s. i was also going "by the book", so didn't see anybody flipped or anything, but now after hindsight, should have said something.
<-- gets out the torches and pitchforks and passes them around

Time for a good old fashioned angry mob. :arge::bananadea :eek:

[okijuhans]

For those who it affected, it was a huge crash. It was also so close to the beginning of the race (perhaps even before it) that it would have been reasonable and fair to those involved if the race had been restarted.

Perhaps it just wasn't so huge for you.

I was in IGTC for a first time and I didnt want to get talking penalty or something like that. I scared to do something silly. This race was very important for our team - it decided whether we can participate in IGTC season or not. Sorry that I see like a ... , but just I scared the SC too, because maybe i make a silly thing again.

[BenjiMC]

It's not at all your fault. These things happen and an Admin has already owned up to seeing it, but didn't know what to do.

[Lotesdelere]

As i said, there are both Teamspeak AND Ventrilo servers there for everyone to use. it's not a matter of convenience but more a matter of being arsed to use them (although Stu is one of those people that used Ventrilo for a moment). The information is there for everyone to use. I am always on both during a race so i see no reason why nobody else can be.
Because we already are on our team TS server.
So what you're saying is that the driver who is racing, and maybe involved in the accident, should inform his team on TS, then one member of the team who is not on track should disconnect from the team TS server to join the admins TS server for giving you the information ?
Then you have to check the accident and to take a decision.
How long all of this would take ?
Not to mention that you'll only see the consequences of the accident and not the reason why it happened.


Stu, we also have IRC and MSN/AIM as means for communication. I haven't seen any S3R guys yet on IRC. We highly recommend it.
Same as above.
It would take too much time and IMO it's the admins job to check the whole field especially on critical moments such as the start and SC periods.

[Gil07]

Team's voice chat to IRC usually doesn't take more than a couple of seconds to be honest...

[DeadWolfBones]

But the time it might take an admin to see it there... especially during a hectic time like the start of the race...

Things are always going to have the possibility of falling through the cracks. We just have to do the best we can with what we've got.

[SamH]

Can I propose one permitted key bind?
*SC*
If usage were established, it would solve the problem of not having marshals on every corner or straight, and it would help admins rapidly determine the severity of a developing situation.

If cars, directly involved in an accident, where they *believe* a SC will be required.. say, I dunno, sitting in the middle of the track with their wheels in the air.. or involved in a significant shunt, like we saw at the beginning of race 2, were to throw that single key bind, it could magically resolve these issues.

Throwing the keybind would not automatically mean that a SC would be called, but it would bring the matter immediately to the attention of the admins for the situation to be assessed.

[DeadWolfBones]

We'll consider that, though I have to say that my initial reaction is that it's a pretty inelegant solution.

Might be able to do something with InSim to detect trouble, a la TV Director. Or just watch the start using TV Director. Hmm.

[SamH]

I appreciate that it's not desirable, but there has to be some system in place to accelerate the movement of information and sharing of knowledge. It's a mistake to repeat the same process and expect the results to change.

From the rear of the pack, it's impossible to avoid the concertina effect. I'm quite sure that everybody back where we were, and behind, just thought everyone had "gone early". The pack seemed to begin to accelerate very evenly, so it *felt* like we were off. We didn't realise (and had no way to know) that it was just more squeezing and stretching further up the pack.

[BenjiMC]

I'd like to remind people that Teamspeak AND Ventrilo AND IRC are available to anybody. If one person in the team is connected to all of these while their driver does the driving then it's the simple matter of hearing what your driver tells you and then relaying that back to the admins. For example while the My3id car was having the lag troubles i was talking with the driver while still on Ventrilo and relaying the information back and forth trying to work out a solution to the problem. It's really as simple as binding Teamspeak to one button and Ventrilo to another.

[srdsprinter]

I appreciate that it's not desirable, but there has to be some system in place to accelerate the movement of information and sharing of knowledge. It's a mistake to repeat the same process and expect the results to change.

From the rear of the pack, it's impossible to avoid the concertina effect. I'm quite sure that everybody back where we were, and behind, just thought everyone had "gone early". The pack seemed to begin to accelerate very evenly, so it *felt* like we were off. We didn't realise (and had no way to know) that it was just more squeezing and stretching further up the pack.
Agreed. Enough "spreading the blame". What can we do in the future.


For example while the My3id car was having the lag troubles i was talking with the driver while still on Ventrilo and relaying the information back and forth trying to work out a solution to the problem. It's really as simple as binding Teamspeak to one button and Ventrilo to another.

And What was your solution? You parked one car for repeatedly lagging, but not your teamate?

Also, its hardly advisable to recommend to any driver (especially one with massive lagging troubles) to be on Mulitple communication softwares robbing bandwidth and making a huge ass mess of the server for the other 27 drivers.

[DeadWolfBones]

And What was your solution? You parked one car for repeatedly lagging, but not your teamate?

Also, its hardly advisable to recommend to any driver (especially one with massive lagging troubles) to be on Mulitple communication softwares robbing bandwidth and making a huge ass mess of the server for the other 27 drivers.

Our solution was to tell Jack to disconnect. Which he did, twice, when the problem became apparent. It took us some time to come to this decision, however.

edit: and the types of lag involved in the two situations you mentioned were quite different and required different responses.

As for Ventrilo/TS/IRC causing lag... I don't know about TS because I don't have much experience with it, but in the case of Ventrilo and IRC that's pretty laughable. I've never seen either contribute to lag the way that down/uploading files can. Never seen them contribute at all, to be honest.

[Gil07]

Well you're mistaken about Ventrilo I think... Talking on Ventrilo really makes my connection suffer, so i tend not to talk too much ;) That's probably because of my terrible upload rate though...

[The Moose]

Ventrillo uses so little bandwidth it's hardly noticeable.

I only have 288kbps upstream (which is what? ..40kB/s ish) and i have no problem at all.

I believe Teamspeak is a little worse bandwidth wise (correct me if im wrong) but you have to have a pretty stone age connection for either of these to affect you whilst racing.

[DeadWolfBones]

Well you're mistaken about Ventrilo I think... Talking on Ventrilo really makes my connection suffer, so i tend not to talk too much ;) That's probably because of my terrible upload rate though...

Yeah, I guess I'm pretty lucky in terms of the connection I have.

Anyway, the point is that all teams should be using some kind of voice communication, which should enable them to inform their teammates of a situation, and those non-driving teammates should be able to use one of the three or four methods available to inform the marshals.

But Benji and I will be discussing means for drivers to alert marshals directly, and you can expect some kind of statement from us on it soon.

If you have more suggestions, please keep voicing them. We're always open to ideas. What we're not open to are conspiracy theories, insinuations of bias, and general bashing.

Thanks.

[Gil07]

Ventrillo uses so little bandwidth it's hardly noticeable.

I only have 288kbps upstream (which is what? ..40kB/s ish) and i have no problem at all.

I believe Teamspeak is a little worse bandwidth wise (correct me if im wrong) but you have to have a pretty stone age connection for either of these to affect you whilst racing.

Believe me, I do :D My team-mates we're saying I was lagging a lot on remote when i was talking, so I kept quiet for most of the race. Same with OLFSL, after the race I started talking and promptly I timed out...

[The Moose]

Believe me, I do :D

Hehe, ok, i believe you.:)

What speed is your connection then?

Have you tried different codecs/audio bit rates in Ventrillo setup? some of them are incredibly low on bandwidth (obviously not the best sound quality but its better than nothing ;) )

[DeadWolfBones]

Can I propose one permitted key bind?

If usage were established, it would solve the problem of not having marshals on every corner or straight, and it would help admins rapidly determine the severity of a developing situation.

If cars, directly involved in an accident, where they *believe* a SC will be required.. say, I dunno, sitting in the middle of the track with their wheels in the air.. or involved in a significant shunt, like we saw at the beginning of race 2, were to throw that single key bind, it could magically resolve these issues.

Throwing the keybind would not automatically mean that a SC would be called, but it would bring the matter immediately to the attention of the admins for the situation to be assessed.

Sam,

I've been talking with Starblue, and our idea is to create an insim command that's basically a "panic button" for drivers. Using it would send an alert message to all connected admins, containing the car number/driver name and sector. In essence, any driver that feels like a situation needs attention could press this button and an admin would see the message and investigate.

This could be used for all sorts of circumstances aside from SC-causing crashes, including cars out of fuel/stuck in sand, cars being blocked, etc. Theoretically, we could even create separate versions for each circumstance.

As for how it would be implemented, the best option we've discussed is to have them as text commands that drivers would bind to wheel buttons or ALT/CTRL-F# binds.

edit: after talking a little bit more, we realized it's possible for these alerts to even focus an admin's camera on the car in question, which would be just brilliant, IMO.

Any opinions on this idea?

[SamH]

My opinion is.. it's a top-notch idea! I can't poke any holes in it.. it sounds like an ideal solution. Using a $command, you can also prevent the text spamming up the server too. It just does what it says on the tin! :thumb:

[Gil07]

Hehe, ok, i believe you.:)

What speed is your connection then?

Have you tried different codecs/audio bit rates in Ventrillo setup? some of them are incredibly low on bandwidth (obviously not the best sound quality but its better than nothing ;) )

126kbps theoretical upload, but I doubt it ever reaches that. 1024kbps DL.

I'll try and have a fiddle with codecs, where do you change those?

DWB, sounds like a very good idea!

[The Moose]

126kbps theoretical upload, but I doubt it ever reaches that. 1024kbps DL.
You have my sympathy :p, i thought i had it bad :D

I'll try and have a fiddle with codecs, where do you change those?

Ventrillo/setup/voice.

[srdsprinter]

The driver controlled alert sounds promising conceptually. It would be terrific if it can get implemented effectively while maintaining K.I.S.S.

What we're not open to are conspiracy theories, insinuations of bias, and general bashing.


As this is unquestionably directed at me, I will just leave a few points I'd like addressed for future races:

A) Talking Is Clearly against the rules in Qualifying/Race, And alternative methods of communications to the admins are available. It is unacceptable that arbitrarily (and against the currently written rules) the admins allow conversations to occur because people don't know the rules. Either change the rules or vow to enforce them. Ignorance has never been an excuse, but seemed to be so this past round. This ties into below.

B) Currently the pentalty for not running the correct ballast (while assuredly accidental is still cheating), is far less than that of a qualifier's errant finger while attempting a fuel fill change (and not knowing the rules goes unpunished). The discrepancies are boggling, and my suggestion is that the rules be not loosened, but revised for qualifying in that:

ANY infraction taking place Pre-Race Start (confimation thread, qualifying, ballast, blocking, etc) results in starting the race at the tail of the field.

C) Lag - There are no concrete rules written regarding what you did this past race parking a driver. I suggest adding something where if dangerous individual or server-wide lag becomes apparent, that you have 3 laps to get a driver change in there or black flag.

D) While it is admirable that you handled the my3id lag issue in-house, AFAIK nothing was mentioned about it on these forums. My team was struggling to figure out what was going wrong, and preparing to do a driver take-over in confusion. If you guys knew what the problem was, letting us know you were working on it would have been a great help.

Thanks,
Stu
S3Racing

[DeadWolfBones]

B) Currently the pentalty for not running the correct ballast (while assuredly accidental is still cheating), is far less than that of a qualifier's errant finger while attempting a fuel fill change (and not knowing the rules goes unpunished). The discrepancies are boggling, and my suggestion is that the rules be not loosened, but revised for qualifying in that:

ANY infraction taking place Pre-Race Start (confimation thread, qualifying, ballast, blocking, etc) results in starting the race at the tail of the field.

I'd agree with this. In the next batch of rules changes I'll make this change.

C) Lag - There are no concrete rules written regarding what you did this past race parking a driver. I suggest adding something where if dangerous individual or server-wide lag becomes apparent, that you have 3 laps to get a driver change in there or black flag.

Also agree with this in principle, and have already been discussing it with Benji.

D) While it is admirable that you handled the my3id lag issue in-house, AFAIK nothing was mentioned about it on these forums. My team was struggling to figure out what was going wrong, and preparing to do a driver take-over in confusion. If you guys knew what the problem was, letting us know you were working on it would have been a great help.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=753446#post753446

In addition, it was discussed pretty thoroughly on IRC. During the race, we consider IRC/TS/Ventrilo to be the primary modes of communication between teams and marshals. Though we also use the forums, responding there takes an unwieldy amount of time in comparison.

edit: furthermore, you could have asked, yourselves, via any of the four communication methods available.

[bdshan]

edit: furthermore, you could have asked, yourselves, via any of the four communication methods available.

OK we get it. We need to have one non-driving team member on both the team ventrilo and admin teamspeak channels, or vis-a-versa. As all team should from this point on.

Lets move on now.

The button bind to "Admin Alert" sounds feasible. I wonder if it could open a button bind snafu can of worms. I think it is important to remember that an endurance race is a team event. As such as team members either driving or not need to keep in constant contact, and the team needs put themselves in a position to contact the race admins as situations warrant it, by whatever means they are comfortable with.

Between watching the racers, communicating amongst themselves, the tracker, and the pit lane applications the admins have an ever growing list of things that need to be done to keep this league running smoothly. I'd be very cautious in adding to that list without making sure that everything has adequate coverage. It is still early in the season, a few wrinkles need to be worked out, as they always do. We as drivers and the league orgainizers/admins will never be able to cover 100% of the issues that will arise over the course of a season. The best we all can hope for is to learn from each experience make adjustments and move on, and hope the adjustments made are appropriate.

[DeadWolfBones]

Well, my feeling is that all an admin alert would do is bring our attention to a certain car, if our attention is available at that moment. And since the alert would be given to all admins simultaneously, if one admin is busy he would tell the others on Vent that someone else should address it.

Even if the system were "abused," all that would do is make us see more of the track. I don't really see any potential harm from it. And hopefully driver will be too busy driving to try to mess with admins by hitting extraneous key combos. :)

[Kirill.D]

I think, that the "Panic button" idea is great. It's the best way to deal crashes and problems on track without having to write something and interrupting other racers.

+1

[SamH]

Even if the system were "abused," all that would do is make us see more of the track. I don't really see any potential harm from it. And hopefully driver will be too busy driving to try to mess with admins by hitting extraneous key combos. :)
Any driver abusing the "button" would be subject to disciplinary action anyway, yeah? That would only be fair.

[dawesdust_12]

Easy, just remove their MyCTRA rights?!

:hide:

[AstroBoy]

I was watching on LFS remote of the start, and saw the bingle happen though hard to tell at the time, i think the admins did what they felt was right at the time.

You have to ask yourself if you were thrown in their position and doing the exact same thing they were doing getting ready for the green, would you have time to notice the bingle at the back, by the time the Green flag dropped even though it was before it, you couldnt call the safety car out just after the green it seems unreasonable.

Just my oppinion many other factors come into my mind of what could have been and what else could have been done, but im not going to write some lengthy thing about it, if i were an admin maybe a diffrent story *hint* lol.

Anyway was still a ripper of a race. And good job to Core.

[DeadWolfBones]

Any driver abusing the "button" would be subject to disciplinary action anyway, yeah? That would only be fair.

Of course, yeah.

[DeadWolfBones]

Dimitry, no need for that kind of personal bickering in here, thanks.

[Dimitry Gerards]

Dimitry, no need for that kind of personal bickering in here, thanks.

'k I'll keep it in mind... someone had to say it imho :shrug:

let's go to FE3 :nod:

[nmanley]

I was watching on LFS remote of the start, and saw the bingle happen though hard to tell at the time, i think the admins did what they felt was right at the time.

You have to ask yourself if you were thrown in their position and doing the exact same thing they were doing getting ready for the green, would you have time to notice the bingle at the back, by the time the Green flag dropped even though it was before it, you couldnt call the safety car out just after the green it seems unreasonable.

Just my oppinion many other factors come into my mind of what could have been and what else could have been done, but im not going to write some lengthy thing about it, if i were an admin maybe a diffrent story *hint* lol.

Anyway was still a ripper of a race. And good job to Core.

My main goal in stirring the pot on the race start is to ensure that ALL the teams get a clean start at the beginning, during or at the end of an event.
I know the admins had their hands full and in my teams case (#30 car) it didn't make as large a difference since we're slower than most teams. We can only try to be consistent to gain positions. I do however, think the right decision was not made and that's ok as we all learn from it.
I cannot and will not devote several hundreds of laps practicing for an event if I feel that I cannot get a fair start or restart in just because we're at the back of the grid. :nod:

I have no doubt that with the efforts of the admins and staff in developing and improving the tools they plan to use things will get better and stay fun.

On to FE3. :thumb: