Comments and Suggestions

[blackbird04217]

Well, as requested we now have a suggestions thread. Please place any thoughts about the series here, and if you have any ideas - this is the spot for them. Thanks!

[LFSn00b]

Maybe make the rules more strict, because when i saw one guy getting a penalty, but he didn't get a penalty. :|

[de Souza]

Hehe, I didn't see what happened at that point, but looks like someone said something at the exact time he was not allowed?

I don't think it's a matter of strictier(?) rules... This penalty system is fully automated, wich means we don't have control over it - and then it's fair to everyone as it will behave exactly the same to everyone. Maybe he said it 1 nanosecond before the line and for lag issues (remember, the insim application is run in USA while the server is in Europe) it showed the other way around to you? I don't know really...

What I do know is that we could get a message for every penalty given, so everyone know about them and can play by the circunstances (as you did).

[LFSn00b]

he said it about 0.5-1 seconds later than the system said not to talk so i think that would be a penalty imo. It even shows it in Blackbird's posted MPRs.

[blackbird04217]

It even shows it in Blackbird's posted MPRs.

Yes , I made the H2H System show things in the replays for this reason, however, I can NOT justify giving a penalty immediately after the stop talking line for a few reasons. When typing a decent message, (longer then 'lol'), the LFS text box is up and you can't see the chat messages, which means you will miss the stop talking line. Then you will hit enter and get a penalty when you didn't have a chance and it was so close. The rules have always been don't talk during the races, and in the past we have let even you slide by with talking before the lights, also you should never let up even if you thought someone had a penalty. I am not going to say the amount of time that its still 'safe' to talk after that line, but I will say that you shouldn't attempt it because it is soon after and it is before the green lights, which is when racing starts.

However, the rule could be modified, and this was suggested; No talking during the event. I haven't quite felt this one out, it could be good and bad as no one has a chance to talk about the amazing race, although as it is we don't have that much time - but thats to keep things rolling. Maybe I will make a poll about it sometime.

[LFSn00b]

actually you can see the messages even when the message box is opened. And i would like to atleast say that when the "stop talking" sign comes you should immediately stop talking.

[blackbird04217]

And were you thinking that exact thought when you typed immediately after the line in one of the previous events where we let it slide for you? As I said before, I can't justify giving a penalty for talking immediately after the Stop Talking. Lag, already in the middle or typing or other reasons could cause someone an unfair penalty. Like I said in the post above I could make it so there is no talking during the entire event, and thats about the only way to do it. I don't see a huge problem with a very brief "fuzzy" area where people should definitely have stopped talking but in case they did say something, then it is still fine.

[tonyonparas]

Wheres the round 2 broadcast?

[Mp3 Astra]

Wheres the round 2 broadcast?

Being made. I'm guessing you'll have it before the end of this weekend.

[LFSn00b]

also one suggestion for season 2:

Atleast one rallycross track.

[blackbird04217]

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas for the Head-to-Head Series please comment them here so we can think about them a little bit. There are big plans for the Winter Series, and there will be a few test events before then. If you've never joined a Head-to-Head race I highly encourage you to join a test event and see how it goes.

For those that have been in the series a bit so far, I plan on trying to make a backup plan. Some way to intervene with the system and switch it to run manually instead. This should never be needed but was during the final event of the Summer Series '08. I don't know how I am going to do it, but I know it will be time consuming and very challenging. The system works well done manually by hand, or automatically by the system, but trying to make it work both ways is a little tricky. I have some ideas that might help out, so with any luck that is what will happen.

Also I am considering removing the "Lucky Dog" rule. Being that it complicates the program, and is the reason of the system messing up, and that I feel its pointless and not getting its goal accomplished. I was hoping people would stay and watch the racing continue, it gets very interesting as it goes and is a great deal of respect when people stay to watch the event. Not only for us as admins but for the fellow competitors that are in the event still moving on, I've noticed that when someone gets knocked out in Round 1 or 2 they usually leave immediately after. This is a problem I would like to address and hopefully find a solution that works for everyone.

Please leave any comments / suggestions here for the future of the Head-to-Head Series.

[blackbird04217]

No comments/suggestions??

[J@tko]

No comments/suggestions??
It's obviously far too good as it is :tilt:

[blackbird04217]

It's obviously far too good as it is :tilt:

I don't know if it is "far too good" but it definitely shows that putting thought into a system can help it out, look how close some of the point battles were this season. Still looking for input on issues like the Lucky Dog situation and other things.

[de Souza]

I think you spoke the truth there Tim. The Lucky Dog was a good idea that just don't work in reality. I mean, we start the events with 20 people and after two rounds there are 12 people on the server. So why have a lucky dog rule if those that can benefit from it already left? And forcing people to stay in the server is a little bit too much, I believe.

<rant>
It's pretty sad to see people leaving the server because they were eliminated. It's obvious that you'll always have to spectate races, before and/or after you get eliminated. What we try to do is make it enjoyable to watch those races, wich, in my honest opinion, actually is.
I see people way off the pace get eliminated in qualify and leave immediately. I mean, why bother? You *will* be knocked out if you are slower than everyone, I'm sure people know this. And they still join the server to qualify (wich I appeciate) but leave after it. Come on, you're expected to watch, support a friend, get amazed by nice races, complain about bad races, have a good time. It's not regular racing, it's something much more emotional. If you can't smile by watching our good races, sorry but I think you're in the wrong league.
There's nothing like finish a race with a very intense battle and see the flooding messages of "WOW", even if you lost it! It's an awesome feeling that I don't get by winning a regular race (and believe me, I really enjoy regular racing). And I surely don't want to be the only one to say "wow" when I watch one of these. Maybe I have a completely different idea of what the H2H Series is, but that's how I feel: we need the spectators just as much as the racers. :shrug:
</rant>

[evilpimp]

Well said de Souza. Couldn't agree more.

I get that special feeling when finishing a round and getting WOW messages and great battle and nice overtake and stuff like that. It just feels good and adds to the pressure knowing that theres 20 people in the server watching YOU. Only you and the other guy. Not going through a full field of cars that are 100m apart each. You and 1 other person who are battling it close most of the time and that's it. I think that what adds to H2H is the people who stay and say things like ''I hope (insert name here) wins'' because then it gives the other person a challenge. :D

(sorry if half of this doesn't make sense but its late and I've been studying for a test on Romeo and Juliet so you can imagin the confusion going on in my mind.)

[de Souza]

...theres 20 people in the server watching YOU. Only you and the other guy...
...what adds to H2H is the people who stay and say things like ''I hope (insert name here) wins'' because then it gives the other person a challenge. :D

So true. :)

[J@tko]

I think you spoke the truth there Tim. The Lucky Dog was a good idea that just don't work in reality. I mean, we start the events with 20 people and after two rounds there are 12 people on the server. So why have a lucky dog rule if those that can benefit from it already left? And forcing people to stay in the server is a little bit too much, I believe.

<rant>
It's pretty sad to see people leaving the server because they were eliminated. It's obvious that you'll always have to spectate races, before and/or after you get eliminated. What we try to do is make it enjoyable to watch those races, wich, in my honest opinion, actually is.
I see people way off the pace get eliminated in qualify and leave immediately. I mean, why bother? You *will* be knocked out if you are slower than everyone, I'm sure people know this. And they still join the server to qualify (wich I appeciate) but leave after it. Come on, you're expected to watch, support a friend, get amazed by nice races, complain about bad races, have a good time. It's not regular racing, it's something much more emotional. If you can't smile by watching our good races, sorry but I think you're in the wrong league.
There's nothing like finish a race with a very intense battle and see the flooding messages of "WOW", even if you lost it! It's an awesome feeling that I don't get by winning a regular race (and believe me, I really enjoy regular racing). And I surely don't want to be the only one to say "wow" when I watch one of these. Maybe I have a completely different idea of what the H2H Series is, but that's how I feel: we need the spectators just as much as the racers. :shrug:
</rant>

Defo agreed there de souza. I only competed in 1 round this last season, got knocked out after R1 (surprise surprise... :P) but had to go as I had to get up at 4am the next morning.

But there's nothing better than watching a final of a H2H event - its sooo exciting :)

[Kaw]

How about we can has them broadcasteseseses? please! :x :razz:

[zeugnimod]

How about we can has them broadcasteseseses? please! :x :razz:

In fact, we demand them!!! :D

[Mp3 Astra]

Well I say be patient.

[Kaw]

I Demand! :d

[Mp3 Astra]

I Demand! :d

I kill you!

I had a LOT of issues with LFS TV director, making my life very difficult. But you will see round 1 in the next week or 2.

[zeugnimod]

But you will see round 1 in the next week or 2.

Quoted for evidence. :razz:

[blackbird04217]

And then ziggy was never seen again, nobody with any sorts of 'evidence' can do anything... Wanna watch? Go on provoke me. I dare ya!

[Mp3 Astra]

Quoted for evidence. :razz:

Quoted for winter series ban.

[zeugnimod]

:smileyrai

[blackbird04217]

Ok sorry to jump in here and stop the offtopicness but I really need to know some things now. Back before the first series was run we added the rule for the "Lucky Dog". Allowing someone to jump up into event if they were eliminated, stayed on the server, and the person that beat them in their match left before their race. However very seldomly used it is known to have a few bugs in the system, including the one that caused Event 5 to lock itself up halfway through when Niko had lost connection it went looking for who he beat, and went crazy...

The original point of this rule was to keep people on the servers after their eliminated, giving them the chance they might be able to race. However, it's not working at all as de Souza and Taha said, which I totally agree with, far too many people leave the events when they can watch the spectacular races and cheer people on. It is very nice, even when losing to see the enthusiasm behind several people shouting that was a close race. So I am going to remove the "Lucky Dog" rule from the system since it is the main cause for issues, and is very challenging to test every possible case - which means there will always be the chance of a bug happening...

But without that ruling what will help people stay around? We thought about doing a name call at the end of each event giving 1pt, but decided against it since we don't feel thats a good reason to stick around. I must ask; what is it about being eliminated that makes people just up and leave? Is it the shame/upset feeling of losing? Is it that you will be bored watching the races? Or is it that you haven't got the time <-- you should always have the time if you've signed up since what happens if you go to the finals???

Anyways please discuss reasons and what could help motivate people to stay on and watch the racing... I have ideas and I promise by Winter Series I will get those ideas done. For now they will remain hidden with me but I will do some test events in the following months for those that wanna see/try.

[zeugnimod]

Is it that you will be bored watching the races?

I guess it is mainly this for most people. I did stay until the end in the first 3 events and only left the 4th because I was angry but for most people the races become uninteresting when they are out, I guess.

I don't know if that would be too harsh but maybe you can add as a rule that you have to stay until the end of the last race and everyone who fails to do so gets a point deduction (3-5 points?). Obviously not when the driver wasn't able to stay because of connection problems.

That's the only thing I could think of. :shrug:


Or make a lottery between all drivers that got eliminated in quali/round 1/round 2 that are still on the server where the winner gets 5 points. :D

[J@tko]

Obviously not when the driver wasn't able to stay because of connection problems.


Sadly, sooo open to abuse :(


Ooooh no - the plug came out the modem. What a pity :(

[de Souza]

Yup, I think forcing people to stay on the server is far too much. I can't think of a way of doing this, really.

Zeug's lottery idea is funny, but if people can't bother staying on the server for 5 minutes to see the next race, will they wait 50 minutes to get the chance to race another time?


Did anyone notice my signature? :shy:

[blackbird04217]

Well I am glad the idea ball is rolling, hopefully more will keep coming in. Zeug - your idea with the point deductions is similar, but opposite, of the idea I had to give everyone who stays till the name call an extra Xpoints. Very easy points to make, but at the same time I would have an all for all race where if you didn't join the first one, you don't get the points... - to eliminate those who leave their computer on... I feel reward in this case would be much better than punishment...

However let's keep brainstorming and also I am trying to get to the bottom of the reason people leave. It's possible to be boredom, but it makes me wonder how... Maybe they have never stayed to the finals and watched the racing continue.

[Mp3 Astra]

This is a very long shot idea, but what about having betting during the remaining races like DashForCash? The person that makes the most money gets a championship point or something. Or even if you don't give points, I think it would give the racers something to do.

[zeugnimod]

This is a very long shot idea, but what about having betting during the remaining races like DashForCash? The person that makes the most money gets a championship point or something. Or even if you don't give points, I think it would give the racers something to do.

This is the best suggestion yet, IMO.

Maybe let the betting winner decide on what combo the next event will be held. He wouldn't choose from every available combo. That might bring up some exotic ones, I guess. Maybe give him 3 options and he can choose what he likes. :shrug:

[blackbird04217]

I don't feel much like adding a full system like that, and then tracking the winning better. Its a decent idea in theory, especially adding the ability for them to choose the next combo (of select choices), however the final event will always be the home event. In my opinion that combo made head-to-head possible and always has the best racing. A pity so few showed up this time around....

[Kaw]

But you will see round 1 in the next year or 2.

We demand!

[blackbird04217]

Ok demand all you want, but a year or 2?

[Kaw]

Ok demand all you want, but a year or 2?


http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=936583#post936583

How classy to edit.

And I was dead serious in my post ofcourse.

Well, nevermind then. :scratchch

[blackbird04217]

Hehe, it will come when we get it... In the mean while any suggestions about the upcoming Winter Series, the Lucky Dog issues or any ideas to keep more people interested in spectating the event after the are eliminated...

[AMB]

Make it so we are all on teamspeak and we have to play a song from the winner of each race, winner picks of course lol, i'll be playing my CRW RAWRR...

Serious though, we should make it so the races are commentated?

[blackbird04217]

All races are commentated live, but that is really only for the broadcasts. We have talked about doing live broadcasts, but have come to the conclusion that it would not be worth the efforts for 1 or 2 fans to actually watch. We will continue to release the broadcasts as long as we feel it is worth it to do so.

[Kaw]

I kill you!

I had a LOT of issues with LFS TV director, making my life very difficult. But you will see round 1 in the next week or 2.


We demand ! :scratchch :razz:

[zeugnimod]

Oh yes, we do.

[Mp3 Astra]

Oh yes, we do.

:( It's been finished for about 3 weeks. I'm just waiting for other people to give me resources so I can export it.

[evilpimp]

=_= I'm watching you.

[Stefani24]

Any chance of a continium of the h2h serires?

[blackbird04217]

It will certainly be continuing, the next series will start in 09: Head-to-Head: Winter Series. Combos are not picked yet (except for the finale of course, dates are not picked although there is discussion of doing an event each week rather than every other week. This will keep the series moving and people interested, I think...

Keep your eyes open for test events within the following month or so if we do have any.

[zeugnimod]

Any chance of a continium of the h2h serires?

Any chance of a release of the video of the first round? :shy:

[blackbird04217]

Yea as soon as I get the time to convert and upload it... Working two full time jobs at this moment, so I don't have time... Really a day that starts at 8:30am and goes until 2am to 3am is quite long... It will be made available when we get the chance.

[Stefani24]

It will certainly be continuing, the next series will start in 09: Head-to-Head: Winter Series. Combos are not picked yet (except for the finale of course, dates are not picked although there is discussion of doing an event each week rather than every other week. This will keep the series moving and people interested, I think...

Keep your eyes open for test events within the following month or so if we do have any.
Wow, Thats great news!

[Mp3 Astra]

Anyone for the Round 1 video???

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=50482

:D

Enjoy, sorry for the epic delay.

[tonyonparas]

Just watched a bit of the Google video and I´m now downloading the HQ version. Looking good.
Good that we at least got the video :thumb:

[blackbird04217]

Last chance to voice your opinions about the series. Would like to take the opportunity to say the Head-to-Head: Winter Series '09 will be coming sometime around January 2009. Lots to do before then but it will be great.

There may be a test event in the following month or so, probably sometime before Christmas.

[zeugnimod]

Nice. :thumb:

Especially since I will actually be able to play LFS again at that time. :D

[Chrisuu01]

Whel how about a difrent way of qualifiying wich is is like everyone can go on the track at the same time and just lap for 15 minutes:shrug:

[zeugnimod]

Whel how about a difrent way of qualifiying wich is is like everyone can go on the track at the same time and just lap for 15 minutes:shrug:

Sounds boring. I prefer the current way. Extra tension. :D

[de Souza]

Whel how about a difrent way of qualifiying wich is is like everyone can go on the track at the same time and just lap for 15 minutes:shrug:

It was like that at the first season, it's just normal. Times were closer to WRs and the difference of the fast drivers to the not so fast drivers were huge, as it is in any other league. Those slower drivers didn't have a chance what so ever. Also there was the problem with traffic, tracks being somewhat short.

Now, as you only have one shot, you might want to think about pushing to get a good position/pole (and maybe ending up in the wall and out of the event) or doing an ok lap to garantee a mid/low position on the grid (but then you'll have to battle your way against the faster drivers).

Either way you'll need lots of concentration, pressure handling and smooth driving on cold tyres. Talk about extra tension. ;)