What is it that separates real racers from LFS'ers

[no_one]

Hi,

I just finished watching the last Top Gear of the series, where J. Clarkson tries to match his time in GT4 at Leguna Seca against his time in real life with the same car and the same track. he doesn't get within 15s of his GT4 time

In this episode he talks about what separates real racers from 'computer game racers'. I know from past experience, even though I can drive quick enough to scare all of my passengers in real life, I don't have that extra 20% nerves to take a corner, which I know should be flat out, flat out.

So my question is this, what do real racing drivers feel, as they're approacing a difficult corner. Clarkson recons that they are missing a part of their brain that gives them the normal fear, I'd like to hear the opinions of real racers who have played LFS.

[Tweaker]

Only thing I can think of is the balls that real racers have, and the fact that they have WAY more going on than just holding a wheel/pedals and driving around a track at the best possible speed.

They have G forces, weather, walls, mechanical failures, and most of all.... the possibility of crashing and getting injured or dying --- I guess you could say... They have no reset button ;) (And they are cautious, have some fears, etc)

We are crazy, careless, and push ourselves to the limits.... even go backwards on the track after a race is over :D

[no_one]

They have G forces, weather, walls, mechanical failures, and most of all.... the possibility of crashing and getting injured or dying --- I guess you could say... They have no reset button ;) (And they are cautious, have some fears, etc)

We are crazy, careless, and push ourselves to the limits.... even go backwards on the track after a race is over :D

You are right Tweaker. But as I understand it, we do these things because it's only a video game. How do real life racers cope with T1 at brands hatch or silverstone, knowing that one wrong move by them or their fellow racers will put them in hospital for a long time!

[Tweaker]

Well, they take it easy, and have much better peripheral vision... meaning they can see around their car and sense things A LOT better than we can.

LFS and as well as many other simulations, you feel confined and restricted to only a small amount of viewing space and not much to make it any better. So we get a lot of clueless drivers, and people not aware of many things. (And some drivers online are not as experienced, so there is a huge mix of experience online -- strange most people don't make use of the qualify feature).

Turn 1 incidents are not all that common in online leagues though, they are mostly rare and less severe. But you know, it happens in real racing too, but you don't see it that much I guess because there is that danger factor of hurting yourself and/or protecting your car from damage. Especially for the fact that real racing is done by a big championship, and any racer's points could be on the line.... they don't want to have a bad season ;) No racer wants that :)

[RMachucaA]

Just go go-karting with your lfs buddies, you'll see a glimpse of who's got what, with decent karts of course. Sim racing helps discover some of that, but the rest is discovered in real life, so until you really do race in real life you'll never know if its in you.

[Victor]

if you'd put in as many hours in a real car, racing, as you have in sim racing, you'd find the answer I think. Practise may be the keyword.

Even when karting, you often go a bit faster every lap, because you get more feel of the kart along the way - it's the same in a real car. The more you push it, the more experience you get with it, learning what your car can take.

But yeah, for those ending up in real races, balls is a big part of the racer's requirements :)

[colcob]

Yeah, this is all true. But as for the Top Gear test, firstly I doubt that the GT4 time is all that close to reality anyway, I know it reckons its a simulator but its not that close.
Also, Laguna Seca has to be one of the Biggest Balls Required tracks out there. Approaching the crest and braking for the corkscrew was pretty terrifying in SCGT 5 years ago, I cant imagine how much nerve it takes to go in there on the limit in real life.

[ayrton senna 87]

i dont think people who race in real life have 'balls', just a trust in their ability.

for example, hit a fence, runs back to the pits and jump straight back in, knowing what went wrong and put it out of your mind. Or jeremy saying he was scared a wheel would fall off, you just go out and dont think about it and trust the mechanics.

[keiran]

In real life you pay more attention to everything around you. The speed and confidence comes with practice.
When I started off karting my first 20 odd laps felt really fast but I wasn't pushing near as hard as I could. You just pick up the speed with practice and begin to get more confident that the kart will stick. Just like in LFS you learn the vechile and try braking later and later every lap till you know you can't brake any later. I remember one corner which was so scary when I started off that I thought there is no way you can brake any later there. Eventually my Dad went and stuck a crisp packet at the side of the track and said try brake there. I went for it and I took the corner no problem, after that I was braking later than that till I lost it and hit the pit entrance :x
As was said you have nothing to lose in LFS (yet :P unless Scawen programs something which hurts you when you crash :p) so you tend to try harder from the word go, rather than build up the pace.

Keiran

[durbster]

I think fear is replaced by confidence as you gain experience of real racing, unless something horrible happens. I remember the first time I went karting and there were corners which I now know were easily flat, but at the time seemed utterly impossible. As you gain experience behind the wheel, your confidence grows, you begin to really understand where the limit is, and you start concentrating on going faster above anything else.

By the end of my first trackday, I was just happy that I'd had the experience and not killed my car, or myself :)

By the end of my second, all I wanted to do was go out again and go faster. The confidence I had in the car meant I was beginning to forget about the consequences and push harder and harder, and enjoying every second of it.

If I didn't have to drive my car home again that day, I suspect that confidence would grow at a faster rate. Knowing that you need to take the same car to the supermarket the following day probably does hold firm in the back of your mind no matter how many times you go ;)

[ayrton senna 87]

Eventually my Dad went and stuck a crisp packet at the side of the track and said try brake there. I went for it and I took the corner no problem, after that I was braking later than that till I lost it and hit the pit entrance :x

maybe the crisp packet blew a few metres towards the corner one lap :p

[Vain]

1. An LFS racer may approach the limitations of a car/track from anywhere he wants. A real life racer has to approach the limit from below, because he will wreck his car and body when he goes over the limit.
2. An LFS racer lacks the possibility to measure G-forces.
Thus, he never fears entering a corner because the G-forces are impressive, even though the car may be able to handle more. The LFS-driver will always keep going.
3. An LFS racer lacks the wide-angle-view.
4. An LFS racer doesn't have to end is racing-career for some months when he wrecks his car, because he can just beam into the pits.
5. An LFS racer has to fend off various sources of distraction. A real life racer is alone in his car, fully concentrated. Try to fight for a position while your girlfriend talks to you about your LFS-addiction...

For example on the Nordschleife there are a lot turns you have to take with bravery. About every car can take them with full throttle, be it a 996 GT2 or an old 944 from '85. A real life driver will fear for his life and car when he approches the turn with 170km/h and full throttle because the car buckles, jumps and screams all the way through. An LFS driver will just say: "Faster, faster!" It takes ages for real life drivers to loose their fear and only listen to the feel and sound of the car.

And a last one less serious:
LFS racers can use bugs. ;)

Vain

[Lautsprecher[NOR]]

What episode was this?
(*Runs to closest Torrentsite*)

[hrtburnout]

']What episode was this?
(*Runs to closest Torrentsite*)

What do you mean?

[Leifde]

Or jeremy saying he was scared a wheel would fall off, you just go out and dont think about it and trust the mechanics.Thats until a wheel actually does come off. It's happened to me twice - first time the bearing was broken, second time my dad forgot to put something on the axle that keeps the hub on.

[Leifde]

EDIT: Oops, double post :)

[Matrixi]

Here's the Top Gear video of Jeremy comparing GT4 NSX lap in Laguna Seca to a real life lap in the same car.
(I think it's stupid without using DFP on the playstation though..)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5587010895482106872&q=

[Blowtus]

fear is a part of it, as far as ability to learn the track / laptimes go. I don't know that race drivers are anything particularly special though, just folk interested in motorsport who've had the opportunity many didn't. Karting is great fun, if I wasn't obsessed with trailbiking on the weekends I'd probably be into that. Would rather be rallying or circuit racing, but don't have the $$$ or time to put the effort in. Same situation as many into lfs, I'd imagine?

[Lautsprecher[NOR]]

(I think it's stupid without using DFP on the playstation though..)He should've at least used the analog sticks. and why didn't the Stig get a lap or two?

[wheel4hummer]

There are no wreckers IRL (Except in Nascar)

[Bob Smith]

Real life uses (marginally) better physics. :p

Simracers can practise on a whim, at any time of day, and be instantly at any circuit in the world. IRL you have (usually) one car, you're at one track, and you'll be able to practise for a few hours per day, during normal working hours.

While this may seem that the simracers practises a lot more, how long have we been simracers for? LFS has been about a few years, GPL twice as long, but nothing before that could be considered real enough to be comparible to real life. Some drivers IRL are in the 50s or 60s and have been racing regularly since they were in their teens. The experience they have accumulated is vast.

Echo what was mentioned before, there is a lot more feedback IRL, coming from everything around you. You are a lot more connected to the real car.

[Boris Lozac]

I don't know that race drivers are anything particularly special though, just folk interested in motorsport who've had the opportunity many didn't.

Great point! If driving karting was one of the lessons in elementary school, i think we would see MUCH more Schumachers, Montoyas, Raikonens..
It's just a matter how much money do you have, and does your family have any history and contact with racing...

[MAGGOT]

Its not just a matter of being exposed to racing, to be a GOOD race car driver you NEED natural talent. All drivers will tell you that. You can only learn/develop so much skill. You need to have it to start with.

Also, race car drivers don't loose their fear, its always with them. They just gain more confidence. There's an old quote, something along the lines of "If you're not afraid, you shouldn't be racing a car."

MAGGOT

[ayrton senna 87]

Thats until a wheel actually does come off. It's happened to me twice - first time the bearing was broken, second time my dad forgot to put something on the axle that keeps the hub on.

hehe unlucky man! but when my track-rod snapped going around B at whilton at about 70mph, i went flat out through the fence and got knocked out. i jumped out after i woke up and straightened the sidepods etc and carried on, next heat i put it out of my mind. all people who race for real do this or they will drive round being scared and i bet u went out afterwards not thinking about it either!

[speedfreak227]

There are no wreckers IRL (Except in Nascar)

i can think of one. he's not that popular, maybe some of you have heard of him.......Michael Schumacher perhaps?

final race of 1995 anyone?
final race of 1997 anyone?

speedfreak227

oh, and be careful how you abreviate things, especially in a racing forum. it took me a minute or two see realise that "indy racing league" wasn't what you were trying to say.

[deggis]

Yeah, this is all true. But as for the Top Gear test, firstly I doubt that the GT4 time is all that close to reality anyway, I know it reckons its a simulator but its not that close.
Of course we all know that GT4 isn't a simulator but lap times could be very close to real life but that isn't the case either. The devs (and GT fan boys) say the real life lap times vs. GT4 times are within 2% (but that's just marketing bullshit). For instance Nordschleife track record is 6:25.91 by Porsche 956 '83 and GT4 4:44.650 (!!!) Toyota Minolta 88C-V Race Car. That isn't quite within 2%. :D

[v4forlife]

well, with my bike racing, i have actually thought about it, thanks to that top gear show, and i figured out that, at least part of it, is that i have total faith in my vehicle. the tyres will stick, i will get the lean angle, the brakes will work etc... im not thinking...what if the rear slides, what if the brakes lock, nothing like that

i think thats part of it, as well as pure confidence in your own ability.
alot of racers, car and bike, that ive met are confident in their own lifes, some to a cocky stage.

[Blowtus]

Its not just a matter of being exposed to racing, to be a GOOD race car driver you NEED natural talent. All drivers will tell you that. You can only learn/develop so much skill. You need to have it to start with.

Also, race car drivers don't loose their fear, its always with them. They just gain more confidence. There's an old quote, something along the lines of "If you're not afraid, you shouldn't be racing a car."

MAGGOT

Depends how 'good' you mean by good. There are plenty of good drivers and riders who get knocked back because they don't have the sponsorship dollars and connections. I disagree you need natural talent, time in the car and a functional brain can get over most hurdles, racing really isn't that physically demanding or anything, it's just a bunch of learned responses...

[MAGGOT]

racing really isn't that physically demanding or anything, it's just a bunch of learned responses...

That could not be further from the truth. Racing is incredibly demanding, both physically and mentally. Ask any upper-level racing driver. I agree that you can have no natural talent, and make it in racing, but nowhere near as far as someone with the same training in addition to natural talent.

Yes, it is true that some very good drivers are held back by lack of funds. That's life though, not everyone can make it. There's some players in Junior hockey tournament right now that are better than many in the NHL, but are past their prime so no team wants to sign them. At the same time, look at all the players that have made it who should NOT be there... same goes for racing drivers. Some make it, some don't. I'm rambling now, so I'll stop and post this before I start comparing beers or something...

MAGGOT

[mrodgers]

Victor hit the answer way up there ^^. It just has to do with doing the same thing over and over again. When I was in college, a bud and I raced on the roads way out in the sticks where we live and it was very common to be driving around at 120 mph everywhere. 100 mph was nothing to drive, it was just a cruise down the road for us. Now that I'm older, smarter, and more mature (jury still out on the last two, hehe) I drive relatively slow compared to my college years. Rarely am I above 65-70 mph anymore and if I had to do 100 for some reason, it's a white knuckle drive now.

v4forlife will go with me on this one. I got my first bike 4 years ago, the first time I was ever on a bike. Not big, just a little ole 550 inline 4 cyl. but if you rev her up past 7000 rpm, she really kicks in and takes off like a rocket. But, oh so easy to ride in low rpm for a beginner. I would head out, felt so vulnerable and conspicuous out there without any sheetmetal around me. 55 mph felt like I was flying, then later I came to realize that most bike speedometers are built with 5-10% error in them. The first time I hit 7000 rpm and felt the surge of accelleration, I was shocked at it. Now after 4 years on it, I know the bike is still pretty quick, but I twist the throttle to it's stop, shifting at 10-11,000 rpm, thinking, "come on, get going already!" My bike isn't the fastest out there, no sport bike by any means, but it does spec at 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds and specs the 1/4 mile in 12.6 seconds at 102 mph. Not bad for a 22 year old little 550 cc. (v4, I'd like to know you're specs stock if you'd pm me :D just out of curiosity). So it all has to do with how much you do it and how you get use to doing it. If you ran a capable car around the track for as many laps and hours as real life racer's do, then you'd eventually get use to it too and the car would just be like an extention of your arms and legs, just like my bike now feels to me and my old car felt back then at 100+ mph.

[Blowtus]

This is what the thread is all about, you are obviously a LFS'er. That's just not the sort of thing Real Racers would say, because they have experienced it.

you obviously know me very well :) You clearly hold 'real racers' in some very high esteem, are you one yourself or just a fanboy? I think racing is great, but I don't delude myself with ideas that the drivers are superheroes, very different to the average person...

my trailbike requires a hell of a lot more pure physical ability (strength, endurance, reactions, etc) on a casual ride, let alone an enduro event or the like, than the average race car event, from what I've seen. I could hammer my car around a track all day long and hop out a little stiff and tired, but not too bad. I've not been involved in anything involving panel rubbing, but I can't see that it would make the dramatic differences you seem to imply. I would contend that anyone with the desire, given enough seat time could become competitive in many forms of racing. I believe this to be true for racing a little more than many other sports, though all have some element of this.

[Gunn]

you obviously know me very well :) You clearly hold 'real racers' in some very high esteem, are you one yourself or just a fanboy? I think racing is great, but I don't delude myself with ideas that the drivers are superheroes, very different to the average person...

my trailbike requires a hell of a lot more pure physical ability (strength, endurance, reactions, etc) on a casual ride, let alone an enduro event or the like, than the average race car event, from what I've seen. I could hammer my car around a track all day long and hop out a little stiff and tired, but not too bad. I've not been involved in anything involving panel rubbing, but I can't see that it would make the dramatic differences you seem to imply. I would contend that anyone with the desire, given enough seat time could become competitive in many forms of racing. I believe this to be true for racing a little more than many other sports, though all have some element of this.It is important and relevant to know that a racing driver is wearing fire-proof underwear ankle to neck, plus a balaclava, plus his racing suit, helmet and gloves and is sitting in a car with very little or no thermal sheilding. This creates very high temperatures that you are never going to experience on your bike. A very high level of fitness helps racers to cope with the heat stress which can be phenomenal, even over short race distances. This one aspect alone often takes many new drivers by surprise and they step up their fitness training to adapt to the harsh conditions.

In high speed motorsports, including F1 racing, you have the added stress of G forces. The type of G forces these guys deal with in some corners would make ordinary guys lose conciousness or concentration. This can be a tough hurdle to overcome and can only be done so with repetitive practice. Very tough on the body and brain, even seasoned drivers suffer from neck strain, headaches and such from these added stresses. Again, your bike won't teach you these things but they are real.

So you're sitting on the grid, have been for several minutes perhaps, you are already pissing sweat from every pore and now you have a very physical ordeal coming up that will tax your concentration and physical endurance, and all this at breakneck speeds. Motor racing is no walk in the park.

[MAGGOT]

Also, you could be doing nothing wrong and still injure yourself. Some drivers have bruised or broken ribs simply by using the rumble strips in their proper mannor.

Don't get me wrong, all sports are taxing on you physically, and mentally. Most people just underestimate racing drivers and their experiences.

[Blowtus]

excellent point Gunn, completely ignored that aspect of the endurance required. Still believe in the other points, and still highly respect those talented enough to be champions.

Clownpaint, what should I read? Some heroic tales of 'real racer' daring do, written by folk like you who love to talk it up?

[Modoff]

"racing really isn't that physically demanding or anything"

Obliously an lfs er.

"I could hammer my car around a track all day long"

Ok what are you driving a kia. with nice cushions seats and nice soft suspension to absorb all the bumps.

So you think that it is not physically demanding because it doesnt look like it is, looks are decieving. I race karts and a lot of my friends ride dirt bikes quads etc. One race in my kart is way more pyhsically demanding then an hour ride on a quad or dirtbike.

Well as far as you saying that there is no need for natural talent, that is VERY VERY wrong.

Blowtus you shouldnt go around posting about stuff you have no idea. If you have never been in a race car how can you sit there and say its not pyshically demanding, You have no idea so pls dont act like you do.



ps. I am not so great at typing so pls dont point out all of my typos.:D

[ayrton senna 87]

acing really isn't that physically demanding or anything, it's just a bunch of learned responses...

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!

[vari]

As an example, a driver can lose up to 3.5 – 4.0 litres of fluid during a race like Malaysia, which equates to 3.5 – 4 kilos in body weight.

Let me know if you find a way to achieve the same in an hour and a half without it being physically demanding :)

EDIT: Karting, oh yeah. A lesson there...We were karting as a part of bacholor party. I got pole and the fastest lap in the race but had to let 2 guys by because I had no strenght left in my arms to be able to keep up the pace. That sucked :D

[three_jump]

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!

and remember the blisters some had (btw: how is your back? :D )...

3j

[JTbo]

In real race you can't go 100% from beginning to end, that is not too well simulated yet, driver part of that is not probably going to be simulated ever ;)

I don't know if I'm really a racer but when I'm on track I'm sure afraid, brake faiding is perhaps thing that I'm most scared of, it just hits so suddenly on my car, nowdays I know that if I go 100% it is only 3-4laps when I will loose 70% of braking power and it will come almost instantly.

Then track where I drive has kind of corkscrew it is uphill when laguna seca has downhill, not nearly as bad as in laguna seca, but I have not yet been able to drive that properly, too scared :schwitz:

With LFS you can get much better idea of real racing when you have 3 pedals and DFP (set to 720 degrees) and H-pattern sifter positioned same way as it is in your car.
Lap times will be slower, but still G-forces are missing and steering is not like real life, it is rather light at center but when you turn more than 45 degrees you need to start fighting, also G-forces pull you one or more directions, now add to this those walls and few other cars, heat and funny smells.
You will be hell scared at first, when you get adjusted to all this new enviroment that scared feeling will be going away, with more practise it may almost disappear, but just almost.

Sim racing is good but compared to real life it is just so limited, however simracing helps to open window to racing, lines and such stuff are much easier to understand.

[L(Oo)ney]

One race in my kart is way more pyhsically demanding then an hour ride on a quad or dirtbike.

Then you are not riding the quad/dirtbike properly.

Get on a 2 stroke 250, ride it round a motox track with a few 80 foot triples.

After you've fell off and broke a few bones, then come back and tell me its not as physically demanding as your kart. :rolleyes:


What's the difference between a racer and a non racer?

Balls. And no sense of fear. They dont think about the consequences until its too late.

[deggis]

With LFS you can get much better idea of real racing when you have 3 pedals and DFP (set to 720 degrees) and H-pattern sifter positioned same way as it is in your car.
Lap times will be slower, but still G-forces are missing and steering is not like real life, it is rather light at center but when you turn more than 45 degrees you need to start fighting, also G-forces pull you one or more directions, now add to this those walls and few other cars, heat and funny smells.
You forgot Force Dynamics which would patch the lack of G forces. :)

[Leifde]

hehe unlucky man! but when my track-rod snapped going around B at whilton at about 70mph, i went flat out through the fence and got knocked out. i jumped out after i woke up and straightened the sidepods etc and carried on, next heat i put it out of my mind. all people who race for real do this or they will drive round being scared and i bet u went out afterwards not thinking about it either!Woah - you actually made it to the next heat, you didn't miss any? (I would probably have missed at least one heat)

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!3.5G?! Superkarts or normal karts?

What's the difference between a racer and a non racer?

Balls. And no sense of fear. They dont think about the consequences until its too late.Not true. As said earlier you have to have some fear or else you would crash all the time - you can see this in non-msa karting, some are idiots with no fear who go for any and all gaps - no matter how small.

[MAGGOT]

Balls. And no sense of fear. They dont think about the consequences until its too late.

As said above, no, that is not true. The good drivers may suppres some of their fear, but they do not get rid of it all. Not thinking of consequences does not equate to having no fear. That's acting without thinking. A driver must always evaluate the consequences before making a move. When they don't, or mis-evaluate (is that a word?), or don't trust their judgment, bad things happen.

MAGGOT

[tristancliffe]

The best drivers have a huge sense of fear. Not necessarily of death or injury, but of not making the most of any situation.

Whereas a good driver with little sense might crash out trying to pass someone for a win, a really great driver will wait, push the car ahead into a mistake, evaluate all the risks, and make a decision based on them.

All forms of motor racing are dangerous (including spectating), and the people involved, if they are to do well, have to put those thoughts to the back of their mind. Not ignore them, or not have them, but learn to control it.

[ajp71]

Karts are as physically demanding as most racing cars, the G-forces are not always as great (I very much dobut 3.5 G), but the steering is often very heavy and they tend to put a greater amount of bumping and shock into you than racing, also in indoor karts you get more shunts than in other forms of racing. I go karting about once a month with 3 real racers who all find karting far more knackering than racing single seaters.

[Blowtus]

Obliously an lfs er.

"I could hammer my car around a track all day long"

Ok what are you driving a kia. with nice cushions seats and nice soft suspension to absorb all the bumps.

So you think that it is not physically demanding because it doesnt look like it is, looks are decieving. I race karts and a lot of my friends ride dirt bikes quads etc. One race in my kart is way more pyhsically demanding then an hour ride on a quad or dirtbike.

Well as far as you saying that there is no need for natural talent, that is VERY VERY wrong.

Blowtus you shouldnt go around posting about stuff you have no idea. If you have never been in a race car how can you sit there and say its not pyshically demanding, You have no idea so pls dont act like you do.

rx7 turbo, but you're right that it's much more comfortable than the majority of race cars, though I don't see that racing in a 'stock' car class makes you not a 'real racer' either. The point that racing can be very tiring has already been accepted.

I never said there is no need for natural talent, just that I don't believe it's as necessary to achieve success in racing as in many other sports, because the money / time factor is so much more important. (than many other sports) I suspect the same would be true of the huge ocean powerboat racing, around the world yacht racing, space shuttle racing... etc :)

[Blowtus]

That's not true, but then neither is what he's saying. They are both very physically demanding. It just sounds like tit for tat at the moment.

"MY BIKE PWNZ j00z CARS"
"YEAH U TRY RACING MY KART IT PWNZ JooR BIKE!!"

:x

:) you're right, the potential for it to be taken like that probably didn't help the point at all. Surely, car racing can still be a valid and great sport, without it's physical requirements being of the highest level? There are plenty of old blokes still highly competitive, (obviously not in all forms) whereas many highly demanding sports they're finished by mid 30's...

Sorry, I'd have stopped by now, I feel like everything I've said is being taken out of context though :( ah well.

[KiDCoDEa]

money

[keiran]

u should have come to the LFS karting event then, almost everyone came off the karts after 20 mins and they were shattered, and thats only indoor karts. proper karts can break your ribs just from going around a corner, they pull 3.5G, one lap and u would be shattered!

I can confirm the ribs bit. Some guy who raced Snr Max hurt his ribs while racing and now can never race again because he can't last a few corners before his ribs hurt. He is 50odd but a quick old guy he was :tilt:

Keiran

[ayrton senna 87]

Formula A in europe can pull 3.5G

[JTbo]

You forgot Force Dynamics which would patch the lack of G forces. :)

Oh yes, that could be very nice too, I have not ever tested one of those so I have no idea how it actually feels. It is however so expensive that I can get a car and go to real track to real racing instead with that kind of money :D

[Blowtus]

:) it's all very well to pick and choose snippets that sound funny... I'm not here to win a courtroom case, I'm here for a discussion. Am happy to be shown to be wrong, as I was very clearly regarding the endurance some forms of racing need, didn't put enough thought in initially. If it makes you feel good to try and rub my face in that acknowledgment then go for your life! :)

As far as natural talent goes, like I said much earlier in the piece, it depends what level of 'good' you want to talk about. I don't think there'd be many people that would dispute Michael Schumacher has a touch of natural talent up his sleeve, but what about the mid pack runners in a local saloon car race? I dispute the idea that these guys are anything particularly special. Sorry to cause you such ongoing confusion.

[Blowtus]

right, the only thing that seperates 'them' from 'us' is the fact they're out there doing it! Not that they're mythical heroes with balls of steel and loads of natural talent :)

[mrodgers]

http://www.collectorstudio.com/happyvalleysunday.jpg
Is this like one of those inkblot tests? I see in that pic that Junior was about to go a lap down and figured he'd draw out a caution like he's so good at doing, LOL.

[MAGGOT]

Is this like one of those inkblot tests? I see in that pic that Junior was about to go a lap down and figured he'd draw out a caution like he's so good at doing, LOL.

I didn't know that Junior could spawn tornadoes! :tilt: hehehe

Blowtus - True, you can race a car with no natural talent in a little local saloon race, but that won't get you anywhere, unless you really impress someone. I think the bulk of this discussion is targeted at the upper-spectrum of racing series, not the local ones. In all honesty though, I can't imagine many/any drivers who only race in a local series can afford to pay their bills simply from racing in that series, they just don't pay the big bucks to allow someone to live off of the income they generate (or lack there of). Up until around 40 years ago maybe, most drivers couldn't make a living off of racing unless they were superstars in F1 or NASCAR, or a similarily large series. Things have changed, but I doubt most people in regional series can sustain themselves by racing in those series, let alone the equipment costs to partake in said series.

My $0.02 :)

MAGGOT

[Leifde]

http://www.collectorstudio.com/happyvalleysunday.jpgFor some reason I don't think that guy needed to wave the yellow flag.. :scratchch

[v4forlife]

screw car racing(j/k) get into a 15-20 lap race round cadwell here in england. now thats demanding, and there is a section, the mountain, when if you take it properly on a decently powered bike,race 600 or so, then you leave the floor completly. almost right after the crest is a right hander, that you have to start turning for before the top of the hill, so your in the air, at an angle, going fairly quick.

competative real life racers do have fear, they also have an understanding of the consiquences. they accept them, and know their own limits. extensive testing and practice, experiance and a trust in the mechanics that the meachine is in the best possible condition for the circumstances they are in.

thats what i think defines the 2 groups.

[J.B.]

money

Damn, exactly what I was going to post while I was reading through this thread.

Of course the more natural talent you have the better, but I don't think you need anything special in terms of bravery or talent just to be able to race, especially in this day and age. If you enjoy racing enough to play racing sims, chances are you would do alright in real life as well.

The idea that you need incredible skill just to keep a racing car on the track and dealing with some small slides is IMO too prevalent in simracing. Being really fast is the hard part not stopping the car from spinning everytime you touch the brake or throttle.

Also, real racers don't have all that much track-time to develop their über-skills. The driver with the most kilometres at LFS World has 820 Grand Prix distances under his belt...

Not that the level of skill and talent in F1 is not very high indeed, but you also have to be aware that if for instance football was as hard to get into as racing then people like Pele, Zidane and Ronaldo would never have kicked a ball in their lives.

And the Top Gear stunt was pretty pointless. The reason he couldn't brake later was not because of fear but because of the inaccurate physics of GT4. And they didn't even tell us what time a real racing driver could have done.

[nikimere]

It takes more than practise and money as people have mentioned in previous posts.

If it only takes practise then your saying that anyone could also be a Pele or Ronaldo, all they have to do is practise...

If it only takes money then why is there ALOT of cr@p rich racing drivers?

It does take balls, that and alot of other things. Car control is only a small part of it all.

You know your one a quick lap in real life when you sh1t yourself on nearly every corner :D

To be a quick racing driver i think you have to have a screw loose :nod:

[5th Earth]

You know your one a quick lap in real life when you sh1t yourself on nearly every corner :D


On the contrary, it's the slow laps that scare me. If I set a PB it's because everything is happening exactly the way I want it to.

[XCNuse]

i figure its the obvious too... they're really doing it.. we just sit infront of a screen and try to control the cars with a mouse or keyboard or if we are lucky.. a wheel, but i promise you its nothing like racing in life

[Blowtus]

funny... I don't find it that different, if I use the gtt as an example. The mind and body are doing all the same things, it just feels and looks a little different.

[XCNuse]

for some things.. but the 'real' things are happening.. in the back of my head when i play LFS i know that i can run into a wall at 180 mph and put only a few dents into a car.. IRL, you can hit anything at 20 mph and possibly even get a cuncossion

[mrodgers]

funny... I don't find it that different, if I use the gtt as an example. The mind and body are doing all the same things, it just feels and looks a little different.
If that is a response to the post above your's, then you are so wrong. It is completely different. As good as driving simulation is and can be, you simply don't feel the same thing. You don't feel the g-forces under accelleration, braking, or cornering. You don't get that feeling in your stomach when you crest over a sharp hill. You don't feel the wind buffetting against your car or tossing you around like in RL. You don't feel the impact into the tire barrier or the corner of the car you just hit. Even with something like the Force Dynamics simulator you still wouldn't come close to real life to say that it's not different. 1 g of force is equal to the gravitational force on your body. So to achieve 1 g of force cornering in a racing simulator, it would have to turn you completely sideways, am I correct? It could jolt you around, and really enhance the sim racing experience, but it will never give you a true feeling of cornering at 1 g.

[durbster]

I agree with Mike. As a physical experience the two just can't be compared.

However, what you do get from sim-racing that is the same as real life is the tension before a big race, the intense levels of concentration, the incredible frustration when it goes wrong, the unmatched joy when it goes right, and the satisfaction when you've achieved something above and beyond what you are normally capable of.

That's what sim-racing does for me :)

[ATHome]

So to achieve 1 g of force cornering in a racing simulator, it would have to turn you completely sideways, am I correct? It could jolt you around, and really enhance the sim racing experience, but it will never give you a true feeling of cornering at 1 g.

It would have to turn completely sideways, that's true. But when you corner at 1G there's still 1G Gravity, so the result won't be the same.

[tristancliffe]

1G gravity (y) + 1G Cornering (x) = 1.41G acting at 45 degrees. Simple Pythagoras (although spelling his name is less simple).

But a motion rig cannot create more than 1G on Earth, so it's not about actually putting the real life forces on you, but tricking your brain into thinking there's the right amount of force. Thats why cyberseat, forcedynamics etc are fun - the make you believe a bit more.

[ayrton senna 87]

i read a book not so long ago (!)

anyway, it said that the scientific reason why some people have less 'fear' than others is because they trust in their own ability. For example Fernando Alonso did an interview for ITV once on a little rowing boat, and he was scared to climb in to start, and kept asking the presenter whether it was safe! Yet he can drive around monaco at 180mph and not complain of being scared.

[mrodgers]

Good point there, ayrton. It's kind of like my motorcycle. When I first got it, I couldn't ride above 45 mph. I felt so conspicuous out there without any sheetmetal around me and the feeling of being on a bike. Now, I have no problem taking it to 11,000 rpm and thinking, come on, go already. I still have trouble not trusting my ability, but the tire's ability as I've taken corners at what I thought was horrendous speeds by accident, but to take even the same corner like that on purpose, I can't because I can't quite trust the tires even though I've done it before no problem.

[AJS]

I know this saying : If you have a lot of respect then that´s ok but if you have fear then don´t ride !

Something around these lines anyway.

If you feel nervous before a competition or have fear of an accident that´s also ok but if you race ride or whatever it should switch off automatically because otherwise just forget it !

If you really feel just a tiny bit fear then you will not be able to concentrate 100 % on what you should be doing : racing. Fear does mean lose of control you will not act normal.

I think what ayrton senna 87 said is quite right !

Don´t you know this : You drive on the wrong side i mean on the passenger side :razz: and you push your imaginary brakes pedals when someone else is driving ? Sometimes really hard :schwitz:You would not do this when you would be driving !

[GP4Flo]

You would not do this when you would be driving ! That's true. When I'm driving, my passengers usually push their imaginary brakes :D

[Jakg]

I didn't know that Junior could spawn tornadoes! :tilt: hehehe

Blowtus - True, you can race a car with no natural talent in a little local saloon race, but that won't get you anywhere, unless you really impress someone. I think the bulk of this discussion is targeted at the upper-spectrum of racing series, not the local ones. In all honesty though, I can't imagine many/any drivers who only race in a local series can afford to pay their bills simply from racing in that series, they just don't pay the big bucks to allow someone to live off of the income they generate (or lack there of). Up until around 40 years ago maybe, most drivers couldn't make a living off of racing unless they were superstars in F1 or NASCAR, or a similarily large series. Things have changed, but I doubt most people in regional series can sustain themselves by racing in those series, let alone the equipment costs to partake in said series.

My $0.02 :)

MAGGOTsome of the bttc drivers have day jobs

[bbman]

That's true. When I'm driving, my passengers usually push their imaginary brakes :D
Mine too... I wonder why... :scratchch :D

[Jakg]

Victor hit the answer way up there ^^. It just has to do with doing the same thing over and over again. When I was in college, a bud and I raced on the roads way out in the sticks where we live and it was very common to be driving around at 120 mph everywhere. 100 mph was nothing to drive, it was just a cruise down the road for us. Now that I'm older, smarter, and more mature (jury still out on the last two, hehe) I drive relatively slow compared to my college years. Rarely am I above 65-70 mph anymore and if I had to do 100 for some reason, it's a white knuckle drive now.

v4forlife will go with me on this one. I got my first bike 4 years ago, the first time I was ever on a bike. Not big, just a little ole 550 inline 4 cyl. but if you rev her up past 7000 rpm, she really kicks in and takes off like a rocket. But, oh so easy to ride in low rpm for a beginner. I would head out, felt so vulnerable and conspicuous out there without any sheetmetal around me. 55 mph felt like I was flying, then later I came to realize that most bike speedometers are built with 5-10% error in them. The first time I hit 7000 rpm and felt the surge of accelleration, I was shocked at it. Now after 4 years on it, I know the bike is still pretty quick, but I twist the throttle to it's stop, shifting at 10-11,000 rpm, thinking, "come on, get going already!" My bike isn't the fastest out there, no sport bike by any means, but it does spec at 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds and specs the 1/4 mile in 12.6 seconds at 102 mph. Not bad for a 22 year old little 550 cc. (v4, I'd like to know you're specs stock if you'd pm me :D just out of curiosity). So it all has to do with how much you do it and how you get use to doing it. If you ran a capable car around the track for as many laps and hours as real life racer's do, then you'd eventually get use to it too and the car would just be like an extention of your arms and legs, just like my bike now feels to me and my old car felt back then at 100+ mph.thgats probably why f1 drivers drive such mundane cars, no other car on the road can hold a candle to their other daily car, even a F430 will be sluggish on comparison

[AJS]

That's true. When I'm driving, my passengers usually push their imaginary brakes :D

Mine too... I wonder why... :scratchch :D

Because

a) They aren´t used to speed

b) They are used to speed but fear the lack of control

c) They think your driving sucks !

[XCNuse]

1G gravity (y) + 1G Cornering (x) = 1.41G acting at 45 degrees. Simple Pythagoras (although spelling his name is less simple).

But a motion rig cannot create more than 1G on Earth, so it's not about actually putting the real life forces on you, but tricking your brain into thinking there's the right amount of force. Thats why cyberseat, forcedynamics etc are fun - the make you believe a bit more.

lol you kinda took everything out of that equation by getting laterial G's.. anyways, motion rigs... suck.. lol its not that they are bad, they are extremely well thought out and whatnot, but its still .. not near what it is supposed to do, its impossible to "make" that many effects act through just a few hydrolic pistons, you have vertical G's and lateral G's.. thats 2 aspects, some companys dont do such a good job with those even at that, as for the fact that the forces are acting on you the entire time.. all a machine would do is just maybe tilt you sideways or something, but you still wouldnt be experiencing but a miniscule amount of lateral G's for only a few milliseconds

and then beyond the basics.. you still have however many more forces that .. i dont know yet :) so i cant tell you lol


as this is one of the things that falls under the categories of "yes.. it is impossible to recreate something real"

[Blowtus]

If that is a response to the post above your's, then you are so wrong. It is completely different. As good as driving simulation is and can be, you simply don't feel the same thing. You don't feel the g-forces under accelleration, braking, or cornering. You don't get that feeling in your stomach when you crest over a sharp hill. You don't feel the wind buffetting against your car or tossing you around like in RL. You don't feel the impact into the tire barrier or the corner of the car you just hit.

How can my personal opinion be 'wrong'?? I've given up track days since getting involved in the 'race' scene of LFS, and don't even bother with as many mountain drives. I get my thrill seeking motorsport rushes primarily from my dirtbike now, as I don't find what I was doing in the car to be as worthwhile when I exercise my brain in a similar (in many ways better, because I'm actually 'racing' and have to practice, setup, etc) manner just sitting at home.

[Blowtus]

lol you kinda took everything out of that equation by getting laterial G's.. anyways, motion rigs... suck.. lol its not that they are bad, they are extremely well thought out and whatnot, but its still .. not near what it is supposed to do, its impossible to "make" that many effects act through just a few hydrolic pistons, you have vertical G's and lateral G's.. thats 2 aspects, some companys dont do such a good job with those even at that, as for the fact that the forces are acting on you the entire time.. all a machine would do is just maybe tilt you sideways or something, but you still wouldnt be experiencing but a miniscule amount of lateral G's for only a few milliseconds

Sounds like you've never tried one. I haven't either, but I've had the theory explained pretty well. Google will do a much better job than me. Tilting someone sideways and keeping their vision angled the same (ie, screen following same movement) causes them to feel lateral G's, because they believe they are still upright and gravity is now acting on their sides, to a degree. Obviously there are limits to the amount of force gravity can apply, but apparently the same technique is used in fairly hardcore military sim type stuff to good effect.

[tristancliffe]

I tried the Cyberseat at MPH'05, and it was pretty good. Okay, it's reaction time was too slow for the FO8, and it was sometimes a bit slow on bumps and whatnot, but it definately felt better. I wouldn't say real (yet), as as you say it can only provide small lateral G's and short durations, but it's definately an improvement.

If they didn't cost £10k, I'd consider getting one.