Bumpdrafting

[wheel4hummer]

On the straightaway, I was drafting someone who was fighting for a position with two other cars. I come up behind him, and decide to initiate a bumpdraft. So, I tap him and we both get ahead of the two other cars. Then, the car behind me spins me! WTF, I don't think I was doing anything wrong?

[ATHome]

I don't really like bumpdrafters, especially if someone decides to do this with me unasked, cause there just have to be a little lag and suddenly both cars go beserk.

And I've never seeing anyone doing this in real life.

[M.Mos]

And I've never seeing anyone doing this in real life. You don't saw it in RL, so what? It exists in RL , fact.

[ATHome]

You don't saw it in RL, so what? It exists in RL , fact.

Does it ? If so, I stand corrected.

But that doesn't really mean it's nice if someone decides to to this in LFS with you and take you out due to lag ;)

[wheel4hummer]

I have broadband, and I have NEVER lagged ever.

Here are some bumpdraft pics:

http://www.offcamberracing.com/news/030615%20hall%20buchallato%20bump%20draft.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/nascar-cup/2005/ta/nascarcup-2005-ta-re-0554.jpg

And, I was not doing anything dangerous. I actually let off the throttle for a split second avoid hitting him, so it was only a gentle shove forward. :shrug:

[Racer Y]

Uhhh bumpdrafting is a very controversial issue with LFS. Ask three
different people their opinion on it and you'll get four different opinions.

[Jakg]

I have broadband, and I have NEVER lagged ever.

Here are some bumpdraft pics:


And, I was not doing anything dangerous. I actually let off the throttle for a split second avoid hitting him, so it was only a gentle shove forward. :shrug:i lag and im on bb! nascars are DESIGNED to draft and bumpdraft!

On the straightaway, I was drafting someone who was fighting for a position with two other cars. I come up behind him, and decide to initiate a bumpdraft. So, I tap him and we both get ahead of the two other cars. Then, the car behind me spins me! WTF, I don't think I was doing anything wrong?how come your a demo racer?

[M.Mos]

But that doesn't really mean it's nice if someone decides to to this in LFS with you and take you out due to lag ;)No i didn't say it's nice. Of course its not nice if someone put you out by bumpdrafting.

@w4h
you can't say that you don't lag just becouse you have broadband. Even if you don't see any lag on your side, other people racing with you might see your car lagging. And you don't have the "right" to bumpdraft someone, by definition Motorsport is a non-contact sport anyway ;) If people are mad at you becouse you bumpdrafted them unasked then don't come here and wonder why ;) Some people like it some hate it, for me it's okay.

Your pics doesn't realy show much and the 2nd pic looks like ingame !?
Here's a better example you just have to watch the whole clip (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=29907#post29907).

[Racer Y]

Oh... after thinking it over... from you're statement. LOL I bet you LAG like hell LOL.
Most of the worst laggers out there aren't using dial up. They got Broad Band
and a big gig computer with the latest, greatest state of the art everything. One that's so big they can usually run multiple applications through the net simultanously... and they usually do. :smileypul

[Shotglass]

how exactly did he spin you ? cause he might just have tried to join the party and you spun because one of you two was lagging when he bumped into you

[Jakg]

how exactly did he spin you ? cause he might just have tried to join the party and you spun because one of you two was lagging when he bumped into youtoday i spun someone accidently, they were running semi-near the wall (this is on the Oval) i pulled in behind them, but i was getting a tiny draft from another car and my front spoiler touched his rear wheel, i spun, causing other cars to hit me, and other cars piled into the back of him as it slowed him down. All from a tiny draft!

[wheel4hummer]

how come your a demo racer?

Because I havent payed $42 to get all of the other cars and tracks, :pillepall

[keiran]

I brake for bumpdrafters its a stupid thing to do on a online game where lag can happen. What happens if someone spins in front of the car in front while your ramming that car up the rear you'll never hit the brakes in time.

It isn't done in all motorsports if thats what you think to and in real life lag isn't an issue. In real life there is no physics engine to confuse.

Keiran

[Jakg]

I brake for bumpdrafters its a stupid thing to do on a online game where lag can happen. What happens if someone spins in front of the car in front while your ramming that car up the rear you'll never hit the brakes in time.or if they touch your wheels, and spin you off

Because I havent payed $42 to get all of the other cars and tracks, then what are you drafting on? bump drafting an XRT on Bl straight? look, its easily a good price to pay for the multi-player!

[wheel4hummer]

then what are you drafting on? bump drafting an XRT on Bl straight? look, its easily a good price to pay for the multi-player!

No, I'm bumpdrafting an XFG on Blackwood! :razz:

[TagForce]

then what are you drafting on? bump drafting an XRT on Bl straight? look, its easily a good price to pay for the multi-player!

It is indeed a good price... But might I ask what is wrong with bumpdrafting the XRT or XFG on Blackwood? That's one of the tracks I ALWAYS bumpdraft on, because even with lag it's relatively safe to do on that long straight.
Especially in the slower cars the advantages are huge.

[TagForce]

I brake for bumpdrafters its a stupid thing to do on a online game where lag can happen. What happens if someone spins in front of the car in front while your ramming that car up the rear you'll never hit the brakes in time.

There's one thing more stupid than bumpdrafting with lag... And that's hitting the brakes when you're being bumpdrafted... That goes right down on my list about 1 point higher than ramming someone off the track on purpose... And I will mark you as a wrecker if you ever do that to me. (not that that's something to be worried of, but you could simply tell me not to bump you, and I won't)


It isn't done in all motorsports if thats what you think to and in real life lag isn't an issue. In real life there is no physics engine to confuse.

Keiran

Well, it happens a whole lot more than you, and a lot of others, wanna think. Last night on Motors TV there was the BMW World Cup season replay, and there were a couple of guys that were bumpdrafting very often... Deliberately, and in Formula cars! And almost ALL saloon series have loads of bumpdrafting throughout the field...

Doesn't make it easy, nor safe... But it's as much part of racing as overtaking (which you don't get in F1 either, so that may be why they don't Bump).

[DmcL]

it is only a GAME :p

mind tho.. i know i wouldnt like it if someone did that and lagged and cars ended up flying everywhere. suppose it really depends on the type of race, cars involved and who your playing with.

[Akg01]

Bump drafting is great in f08 to get high time , and in racing with Fzr , ( this is DRT server :)

[wheel4hummer]

There's one thing more stupid than bumpdrafting with lag... And that's hitting the brakes when you're being bumpdrafted

Well, I was racing on that server for two 6 lap races beforehand, lag free. And, you shouldn't need to hit on the brakes while being bumpdrafted, because the bumpdrafter should only be doing it on a long straight away (like me)

[Vain]

The first one who bumpdrafts me will get a big fat "Stop touching me there! My rear is virgin and it will always be! I'm not queer!"

Vain

[TagForce]

The first one who bumpdrafts me will get a big fat "Stop touching me there! My rear is virgin and it will always be! I'm not queer!"

Vain

And that's the way it should be... Although the intonation could be a bit more, uhmmm, friendly? :D

[TagForce]

Well, I was racing on that server for two 6 lap races beforehand, lag free. And, you shouldn't need to hit on the brakes while being bumpdrafted, because the bumpdrafter should only be doing it on a long straight away (like me)

The way I understood him he doesn't brake because he has to... He does it to wreck you (and more than likely himself and several innocent racers as well).

It's like that video a couple posts higher... Don't like it... Show the drafter you don't like it by doing the online equivalent of waving the (index)finger at him.

[tristancliffe]

If anyone is foolish enough to bumpdraft me, I am foolish enough to sacrifice my race (and that of others) by braking as hard as possible. After a few attempts, people learn not to bumpdraft me.

How it is used on LFS is NOT a real life technique.

[JohnPenn]

Bumpdrafting don't like it, and react badly when its forced upon me:)

Never used it because no matter how good the result, race win, some new amazing pb, I would know I how I got the result.

Just don't get it?.


John

[wheel4hummer]

Well, like I said, I didn't slam into the guy! :pillepall

It was near the beggining of the BL straightaway, and I slowed down so that my speed relative to his was about 5kph

[Vendetta]

Bump drafting is great in f08 to get high time , and in racing with Fzr , ( this is DRT server :)

Too bad your only a demo racer. :/

[Bawbag]

Too bad your only a demo racer. :/

He says he's doing it on a server so either he has a friend who has the game or hasn't register'd his username with his forum name.

I use bump drafting in BL GTi when it's someone I know or someone who doesn't mind just to cacth up with the few infront (or leave the fast guy behind)

it's crap with UF1 though, as when you race it you need to slipstream for ages to get enough speed to pass, which means you get soo close and when you touch you get attached to the back of their car. So bump drafting in UF1 is rarely seen!

[Gabkicks]

^ plus most people have their uf1's set up for lots of oversteer. :tilt: i just finnished a set of some very violent uf1 races.

[Gunn]

Contact with other cars should be avoided, no matter the circumstances.

[Gabkicks]

^ this is true for most of the skilled drivers. but sometimes both guys get greedy at dangerous corners (chicanes etc) and neither guy backs down and crashes happen. Basicly whoever is farther behind decides if there's a collision on those corners. the guy in front can hug the inside if they enter sideby side... but if whoever is farther back doesnt back down, there's gonna be a collision.

I dont know what i'm talking about, i'll shut up now:x

[wheel4hummer]

Well, I usually don't do bumpdrafting, but I was just testing it. And, I prolly wont be doing it much more lol

[Shotglass]

How it is used on LFS is NOT a real life technique.

and how exactly is the real life technique different ?

[sturje]

Bump drafting on LFS is incredibly dependant upon ping, when i bump draft with drivers from Germany and around europe i can generally get away with it, but with drivers from the USA its pretty much a big no no, crash without fail. :P

Bump drafting is pretty much the only way you can get 34.xx times on the oval, closest ive had in normal two car draft is a 35.06, though if you get really lucky might be someone in front to grab that extra bit of draft and get into the 34.xx's. Know a couple of people who have 34.60's on oval using bump drafting :o

And i must say if anyone wacked on their brakes on a oval when i was trying to bump draft them on my team's server they wouldn't stay on the server for much longer than 5 secs, time it takes me to kick and ban. Its probally one of the most dangerous things one can do and would most likely take out more than half the pack. But thankfully haven't had it once...yet. :)

[NotAnIllusion]

I don't mind bumpdrafting at all, if it's done safely, i.e. on straights only and if no pass is attempted, the bumping car backs off early enough. I do it often on BL1 w/ XFG when catching up with the leaders or trying to outrun someone i know is faster. I do it safely, and can't remember a time it's ever resulted in a lag crash. In fact, I see it as not wanting to catch up with leaders if it's not done when possible (wtf, you want to lose eh?).

@the ppl who brake in front of bumpdrafters:
That's wrecking/blocking (depending on the outcome), deliberately slowing the other car down or taking it out. Bumpdrafting is not wrecking and when practised correctly is beneficial to both racers involved. What justifies you to wreck instead of informing you don't approve of this? I bet most BDs including me will back off and won't try it again with you.

The same as a flame: You brakers are a sad lot of losers, rubbing in racing is everyday stuff when done with cars that can handle it. Take your head out of your ass and see it does wonders for both of you.

[Gunn]

....rubbing in racing is everyday stuff when done with cars that can handle it. Even so, contact between cars is clearly a no-no in most racing series rules. The fact is that you shouldn't be deliberately contacting other cars. It isn't your call, you shouldn't bump other cars. In LFS it is doubly dangerous due to lag collisions. I'm so happy I don't waste my time on public servers where people think they can crash into me when they feel like it.
"Sorry for sticking your car in the wall, was just trying to bump draft, hehe..."
"Nice one. Moron."

Bottom line is: bumping my car means you wish to improve your race by possibly disrupting someone else's. I don't wish to race with people who take liberties like that. Who would?

[Ardent]

"Sorry for sticking your car in the wall, was just trying to bump draft, hehe..."


yes, that is exactly what I was thinking about that whole bumpdrafting thing. I didn't even know it and now that I do, how should I know if someone is bumpdrafting me or just too stupid to drive.

If that was common practice I would just bumpdraft cars before they corner (which certainly wins me a position) and then excuse myself: "Hey, I was just bumpdrafting, your fault if you cannot handle it"

I would consider it an offense if someone drives into my rear, no matter what excuses he has thereafter.

[zorrofox]

I only drive the open-wheeled cars but you bump-draft me at your peril. I'll give you a brake test so fast. It may be legitimate in NASCAR type racing but not in single-seaters.

[Crazy Harry]

If anyone is foolish enough to bumpdraft me ... blablabla ... by braking as hard as possible...

Good idea to f**K up someones race who likes to get a better position ... together with you. :pillepall

I like bumpdraft, hope someone breakes the 33 barriere. http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/415/347vd.jpg

Harry

NOOB-O-METER: ||||||||||||||||||||||||

[Gunn]

The only barrier bump drafters will break on my servers is the 999 day barrier.

[Ardent]

I'll give you a brake test so fast.

And then reverse gear and full throttle :D

[tristancliffe]

and how exactly is the real life technique different ?

In real life the lead car gets a gain from drafting anyway, so the speed differences are less. Plus, real life drivers will only do so if it is totally safe to do so, whereas LFS drivers do it at almost any time, whether the lead driver is expecting it or not.

Plus it's NEVER done in Formula cars, so it shouldn't be done in the FO8, but because body damage has no effect on performance yet, the fools that use the oval use it all the time.

[Vain]

You touch my car? I touch your car!
You don't mind wether I don't want to be bumpdrafted or not? I don't mind wether you want to brake or not.
You want to gain a position? Take me over! (or try to ;) )
Bumpdrafters are considered wreckers in my book.

Vain

[keiran]

Bumpdrafting in real life isnt ramming the car hard up the rear. In real life a pocket of air is trapped between the two cars thus reducing the ramming. To many people seem to watch to much BTCC here :scratchch
In real life lag doesn't exist and who ever said it's done in formula cars ROFL because they don't otherwise they'd lose downforce in the dirty air and damage the front wing.

If you see me in a server and your a bumpdrafter you better move to the right instead of ram me off the track. To many times lag has sent me off and to many times someone has forced me off the track by continuing to ram me while I'm braking for the corner. I will always brake for bumpdrafters because to bumpdraft it's stupid when lag is possible so I'll always give you a brake test and see how much time you have to avoid me :thumb: If a car spins in front of the car in front of me at least I have enough time to try avoid it.

Vain is spot on there if you don't mind bumpdrafting me then in my books you don't mind me braking

Keiran

[sinbad]

Bumpdrafting in LFS is akin to cheating imho. It's an exploit, a slow-car-boost for guys that can't keep up under their own steam. There's no skill to it, and the gains are far too great.

I just laugh when I see guys doing it. RAM!.....fall back....RAM!....fall back.....RAM! "YAY WE IS NOW GOING 20MPH QUICKER AND CATCHING ZHE LEADORZ!! WE ARE ZHE FASTEST!!".

I bow down to your ability.

[NotAnIllusion]

Bumpdrafting in LFS is akin to cheating imho. It's an exploit, a slow-car-boost for guys that can't keep up under their own steam. There's no skill to it, and the gains are far too great.

I just laugh when I see guys doing it. RAM!.....fall back....RAM!....fall back.....RAM! "YAY WE IS NOW GOING 20MPH QUICKER AND CATCHING ZHE LEADORZ!! WE ARE ZHE FASTEST!!".

I bow down to your ability.
Lol :rofl:

[Akuma66]

Have had a few people start doing this to me, end up one of either 2 ways, He knock himself out / He takes us both out (Then I get 'Sorryyy :shy:).

I find a annoying as hell trying to be good (have been accused of blocking and tbh I was a bit, lesson learned) and let people by on the inside, and then having some idiot refusing to pass you and risking both mine and his race.

[Hyperactive]

Bumpdrafting is idiotic. It is purposeful touching and unexpected. And not fair racing imho.

[Gabkicks]

i dont mind people bumpdrafting me on the oval.. but it is very annoying when people do it on tracks with left and right turns:shrug:

i wouldnt be a jerk and slam on the breaks. ... i may break a bit early for a corner though.

[wheel4hummer]

They shouldn't be bumpdrafting before a corner. :pillepall

[Simon Savage]

I bump draft only if im playing with mates and if in slow cars. With fast cars its far too dangerous.
I have done it a few times in karting at the gp when im stuck behind some guy who's a rolling roadblock. went round turn one as quick as possible hit the back of the kart infront and keep on pushing until we are both past or have an overlap. The guy i was pushing shat himself but adleased the Marshalls laughed.

Ive help push people past in Mini's and GTI's stuff like that i see no problem with that at all as long as its in the right place.

[TagForce]

What are we talking about here?

Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?

I've been known to bumpdraft on long straights in any car except the formulas... But my bumpdrafting is NEVER about ramming someone into going faster... I've never caused any car to fly off into the sunset, nor even get upset by my touching... The end result should always be two engines pushing two cars forward through half the air it normally takes.

And you should always let up early when your bumpdrafting someone... Your going faster than normal, so you should brake earlier... And you should give the lead car plenty of room to do his/her braking.

About not bumpdrafting in formula cars... That's just plain wrong, it DOES happen... Just not that often because basically the cars are built in a way that passing someone in a regular draft who passes you in another regular draft, etc, has more advantage. Yes, the nose is less forgiving when it comes to touching, but trust me when I say that the carbonfibre nosecones on IRL cars are a LOT harder to break than the steelplating/steel grilleplate on a NASCAR nose. It's just that the Formula cars need to be bumped with more precision so as not to ruin the lead cars gearbox or rear wing and there aren't that many places where you can safely bump someone.

As for it being cheating... Where did you get that idea? Are you a person who won't run high-nose setups? Even if the effect is too severe, it's still something that is done in real life, and it's not cheating there... As is the high-nose config, btw, done in real life (look at tristans car, it actually HAS the high-nose config built into the wing!)...

Racing is not a solitary sport... It's not something you do alone... On some tracks you can win by being selfish and fast, and on some tracks the winner will be determined by the way people work together (most notably the oval, but KYGP and BL as well)... If this involves hanging someone out to dry because you know he's faster in the twisty sections, then by all means you should hang him out to dry (which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with). If this involves bumpdrafting someone to get a small lead into a series of turns, then do it...
Racing is not about being the fastest driver... Racing is about crossing the finishline first. If it was about being the fastest driver we'd all be watching timetrials for F1 GPs.

There are plenty of ways you can let me know you don't want me bumpdrafting you without you wrecking my race... If you pass me on the inside and push me out I don't go slamming you into the wall from the inside on the next turn... That would be wrecking... So would repaying a bumpdraft with a braketest or a sideswipe be...

Yes, it's more dangerous online because of lag, but you can pretty much see what stable cars you can try a bumpdraft with and which would lag into you. It's nothing more dangerous than going into turn 1 3-wide after the start, which most of you (me included) seem to have no problem with.

Why don't we just end this discussion about the wrongs and rights of bumpdrafting, and just kindly communicate how you feel about it when the need's there on the track? You'll never agree with me, at least not until you actually have me pushing you along the BL straight and find it is actually a useful and fun way of cooperating with someone to gain time. It's all part of strategy.

[Jakg]

It is indeed a good price... But might I ask what is wrong with bumpdrafting the XRT or XFG on Blackwood? That's one of the tracks I ALWAYS bumpdraft on, because even with lag it's relatively safe to do on that long straight.
Especially in the slower cars the advantages are huge.nothing, but its better (ie more realistic and will serve you well if they ever do anything that might make bump-drafting impractical and thus making it closer to real life) if you draft someone, but as you pass them, let them draft you and fly past, then you do the same, even newbies can do that, unlike certain people "cool" bumpdrafting ieas of giving you taps on the wheels!

[Ardent]

which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with

by just logically thinking this over, if you pick a slower car for bumpdrafting, this car will be in front when you arrive at the twisty section and will then slow you down greatly while the faster car you want to catch up to will just drive away.
I also cannot imagine you can use this for overtaking because you first have to pass the car you are bumping and then go one on one with the faster car. That will never work (except oval maybe).

Also you are falsly asuming that others have to inform you that they don't want to get raped from behind. It's the other way round, if you wanna bump someone you are to make sure that the other driver is informed before you do that (just as you cannot just bump any girl in RL from behind without asking).

Really, by just thinking over it, I would deny the big benefit of bumpdrafting on any track but the oval. On the oval everyone is equally fast and expects bumpdrafting as it seems, that is ok then. Please show me a replay where you beat a better driver because of bumpdrafting on a regular track (no oval).

[th84]

And i must say if anyone wacked on their brakes on a oval when i was trying to bump draft them on my team's server they wouldn't stay on the server for much longer than 5 secs, time it takes me to kick and ban.

imo, this bumpdrafting causes more crashes than it produces fast laps. something i dont understand though is why someone would get banned from a server for "brake checking" some one who trys to bump draft them, but when that bumpdrafter takes them both out or just one of them, thats ok?:pillepall ive watched a couple replays with this bumpdrafting and even joined a oval server a couple of times to see how it works, i saw one sub 34 lap but i also saw at least 5 or 6 wrecks caused by the person behind trying to bump the one in front!

[zorrofox]

I don't mind bumpdrafting at all, if it's done safely, i.e. on straights only and if no pass is attempted, the bumping car backs off early enough. I do it often on BL1 w/ XFG when catching up with the leaders or trying to outrun someone i know is faster. I do it safely, and can't remember a time it's ever resulted in a lag crash. In fact, I see it as not wanting to catch up with leaders if it's not done when possible (wtf, you want to lose eh?).

@the ppl who brake in front of bumpdrafters:
That's wrecking/blocking (depending on the outcome), deliberately slowing the other car down or taking it out. Bumpdrafting is not wrecking and when practised correctly is beneficial to both racers involved. What justifies you to wreck instead of informing you don't approve of this? I bet most BDs including me will back off and won't try it again with you.

The same as a flame: You brakers are a sad lot of losers, rubbing in racing is everyday stuff when done with cars that can handle it. Take your head out of your ass and see it does wonders for both of you.

It's incredible to read that you think we're losers. Don't you think the onus is on you to ASK whether this is acceptable?

As for the inflammatory remark in your last paragraph - T...W...A...T!!!

[Jakg]

What are we talking about here?

Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?

I've been known to bumpdraft on long straights in any car except the formulas... But my bumpdrafting is NEVER about ramming someone into going faster... I've never caused any car to fly off into the sunset, nor even get upset by my touching... The end result should always be two engines pushing two cars forward through half the air it normally takes.

And you should always let up early when your bumpdrafting someone... Your going faster than normal, so you should brake earlier... And you should give the lead car plenty of room to do his/her braking.

About not bumpdrafting in formula cars... That's just plain wrong, it DOES happen... Just not that often because basically the cars are built in a way that passing someone in a regular draft who passes you in another regular draft, etc, has more advantage. Yes, the nose is less forgiving when it comes to touching, but trust me when I say that the carbonfibre nosecones on IRL cars are a LOT harder to break than the steelplating/steel grilleplate on a NASCAR nose. It's just that the Formula cars need to be bumped with more precision so as not to ruin the lead cars gearbox or rear wing and there aren't that many places where you can safely bump someone.

As for it being cheating... Where did you get that idea? Are you a person who won't run high-nose setups? Even if the effect is too severe, it's still something that is done in real life, and it's not cheating there... As is the high-nose config, btw, done in real life (look at tristans car, it actually HAS the high-nose config built into the wing!)...

Racing is not a solitary sport... It's not something you do alone... On some tracks you can win by being selfish and fast, and on some tracks the winner will be determined by the way people work together (most notably the oval, but KYGP and BL as well)... If this involves hanging someone out to dry because you know he's faster in the twisty sections, then by all means you should hang him out to dry (which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with). If this involves bumpdrafting someone to get a small lead into a series of turns, then do it...
Racing is not about being the fastest driver... Racing is about crossing the finishline first. If it was about being the fastest driver we'd all be watching timetrials for F1 GPs.

There are plenty of ways you can let me know you don't want me bumpdrafting you without you wrecking my race... If you pass me on the inside and push me out I don't go slamming you into the wall from the inside on the next turn... That would be wrecking... So would repaying a bumpdraft with a braketest or a sideswipe be...

Yes, it's more dangerous online because of lag, but you can pretty much see what stable cars you can try a bumpdraft with and which would lag into you. It's nothing more dangerous than going into turn 1 3-wide after the start, which most of you (me included) seem to have no problem with.

Why don't we just end this discussion about the wrongs and rights of bumpdrafting, and just kindly communicate how you feel about it when the need's there on the track? You'll never agree with me, at least not until you actually have me pushing you along the BL straight and find it is actually a useful and fun way of cooperating with someone to gain time. It's all part of strategy.im ok with bump-drafting on the long staights (and i mean straights, not mildly curved ones!) and the oval (when will people learn about the effects on down force when in draft and there fore you should never draft on a corner!), again, only on the straight, plus you must give warning and ask first, you never know, my car may be in a bad way with the suspension and tires , secondly, if i am given warning, i can line myself up, and therefore will not go crash if you touch me, personally, i think that you can get much better advantages from drafting past each other, much more fun, like i said before, drafting happens, and in LFS race to be the ultimate simulator, drafting will still work. for example, even a newbie can draft/can be drafted, where as if a newbie tries bumpdrafting on the start/finish straight, on the corner, they touch your wheel and your out! where as, you can pull out of the draft and uses the other foot for a change!

Other thing ive noticed, the fastest ive gone on my own is 186 mph, which i can get easy, but can go no faster, with a bump (and this one was expected!) i can get to 192 mph, which was fast, but when your coming up to a corner at that speed with someone doing the same speed on your tail, yuo wonder what to do! With drafting i can get to 201 mph (has anyone noticed that 199 mph is quite easy to get to if the car is stating on the racing line, but it doesnt seem to get any faster without taking a large amount of risks!) if i ever need to slow down i can pull out of the draft and let aerodynamics do the rest! i also prefer drafting because of how less dangerous it is!

[Akg01]

Too bad your only a demo racer. :/

:shrug: mm.. yeaa

[Racer Y]

I think the problem with bump drafting, and using it or not could be solved by server admins posting in the title whether that's allowed or not on the server.
Another thing to do with that server that allowed bumping was to keep statistics on it like average laptimes, but also how many times a Ban vote
was initialised, How many pit outs, and how many restarts as opposed to a server that didn't allow bumpdrafting.

As for beginners and bumpdrafting..... I think it's a more complicated tactic
than it looks and shouldn't be attempted right off the bat, if at all.

[Jakg]

i would like to point out i am only against people that ram into others as a speed bost, not the type where they slowly join together until they are touching, then the rear driver floors it, but even then, it should only be attempted with mutual consent. out of interest, what is the longest straight in lfs?

[TagForce]

by just logically thinking this over, if you pick a slower car for bumpdrafting, this car will be in front when you arrive at the twisty section and will then slow you down greatly while the faster car you want to catch up to will just drive away.
I also cannot imagine you can use this for overtaking because you first have to pass the car you are bumping and then go one on one with the faster car. That will never work (except oval maybe).

Also you are falsly asuming that others have to inform you that they don't want to get raped from behind. It's the other way round, if you wanna bump someone you are to make sure that the other driver is informed before you do that (just as you cannot just bump any girl in RL from behind without asking).

Really, by just thinking over it, I would deny the big benefit of bumpdrafting on any track but the oval. On the oval everyone is equally fast and expects bumpdrafting as it seems, that is ok then. Please show me a replay where you beat a better driver because of bumpdrafting on a regular track (no oval).

I think you're missing the point of bumpdrafting here...
When 2 racers decide to bumpdraft, they actually agree not to overtake eachother and fight for position. Fighting for position slows you down, and when the 2nd and 3rd place drivers want to catch up to the leader, they need to have some form of cooperation going on. In general, the driver that is the fastest through the turns will get 'the point' in a bumpdraft deal. This driver will be 2nd, and will lead the slower driver through the turns, guiding him over the best line (it's easier to navigate when you have a close focal point in front of you), and the following car will in turn push the lead car to higher speeds on the straights... Until there's a pack of 3, there is absolutely no overtaking happening. Once the leader's been caught, all hell breaks loose and the overtaking commences.

As for the "who's to inform who" question... In real racing, it is the lead car that has the capabilities of signing to the following cars, since they can clearly see him in his car. So that's where the responsibility of you telling me not to bump you comes from. Just because I am able to tell you what I'm going to do from behind, doesn't mean that SHOULD be what happens, nor does it mean it happens like that in real life... I could agree with you on changing the signing responsibility to the following car, though. Just that I've always learned that the front runner is the only one that can sign to the back, unless both drivers know there's going to be comms.

As for the replay... We'll meet on the tracks one of these days, and I'll show you (not on you, but on some willing racer) what the difference in laptimes can be. If you want a quick look, there's a link to a video posted in this thread that shows just how much of an advantage bumpdrafting can have over normal drafting, and also how the driver of the car in the video tells the following car he doesn't want to be bumped. (to save you about 25 mins of LX racing: The cam-car drafts 2 other cars and gains quickly, then gets out of the draft to pass, and halfway passed the first car he's slowed down by having the wind in his face, and ends up where he started.)


im ok with bump-drafting on the long staights (and i mean straights, not mildly curved ones!) and the oval (when will people learn about the effects on down force when in draft and there fore you should never draft on a corner!), again, only on the straight, plus you must give warning and ask first, you never know, my car may be in a bad way with the suspension and tires , secondly, if i am given warning, i can line myself up, and therefore will not go crash if you touch me, personally, i think that you can get much better advantages from drafting past each other, much more fun, like i said before, drafting happens, and in LFS race to be the ultimate simulator, drafting will still work. for example, even a newbie can draft/can be drafted, where as if a newbie tries bumpdrafting on the start/finish straight, on the corner, they touch your wheel and your out! where as, you can pull out of the draft and uses the other foot for a change!


It all depends on what you want to accomplish with the draft... If I want to pass someone I'm not going to bump him, simply because every mph he gains makes it harder for me to pass... However, bumping someone might negate the effect of the 3rd car that tries to pass me by drafting me in the normal way, because he will be in full air, and we are 2 cars as one, gaining speed. It also might help you to make up that 3 seconds the leader has on you 2, which simply wouldn't work in the normal way.


I'll try to find a good racer that will allow me to demonstrate bumpdrafting on Blackwood.

EDIT:
I agree there are too many noobs bumpdrafting on Blackwood that scare even me... Word of advice to people who've just started racing in LFS... Don't bumpdraft until you are able to match the speed of the car in front of you every time, without touching him or feathering the throttle... Then, and ONLY then, you may think about bumpdrafting him. And only on the long straights, and only until 200 meters before the next braking point. Trust me, the first couple of months you race, you should never, under any circumstance, bump another car for speed.

[NotAnIllusion]

Thank you, TagForce. You have explained bumpdrafting well. :) If anyone is interested in laptime comparisons..

BL1, XFG, NOS Demo Server Chart
HL WR -> 1:31.540
Top BD Time -> 1.31.180 (I think it was that anyway. [Fluid] KingNothing & Takahashi dominate :P)

Even a mid 32s driver can hit very low 32s or even 31s when bumpdrafting, it's handy when there is only a few laps to go and the leader is a couple of seconds away. As TagForce explained there is no point in bumpdrafting if you are going to attempt a pass at the end of the straight. Only use it to catch up with leaders.

Knowing when to back off from BDing is also crucial and where crashes occur. If you are bumpdrafting a slower driver, he will brake before you do so leave enough distance before the corner. 200m is fine if you know who you are dealing with but if you don't, avoid bumping from the moment you are approaching the distance signs.

I'll finish off with a general racing tip:
If you are right in someone's rear bumper at the very beginning of a long straight, don't pass them as soon as you can because the likelihood of them drafting and re-passing you is quite high. Instead, without contact, remain in the draft until you approach the corner and make your pass so that you are well ahead of your opponent and s/he cannot attempt a re-pass in that corner.

Another advantage of not passing a driver of similar skill level immediately might be that if you can drive close enough to his/her rear bumper for several laps, perhaps making a fake passing attempt or two on the way, it may unsettle your opponent and result in him/her making a slight mistake that instead of just allowing you to pass safely, allows you to pull away without getting drafted. Unlike bumpdrafting, there is no contact, is a perfectly legal strategy and can be seen in the F1 circuit frequently.

I agree there are too many noobs bumpdrafting on Blackwood that scare even me...
Indeed, it's the only demo track after all, and almost every newbie has started there :p Can be a right mess at times.

[Crazy Harry]

What are we talking about here?
Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?


Thx mate, you rock! That´s what we talking about. I use bd very often, front or rear, I dont care. I´d never seen the car in front crashed while gettin´bumpdrafted. It´s the risk of the car behind ONLY. And saving the car after a small "bump-fail" gives you even better controls of your car. It´s very good practice. If ya don´t like it: Stay away from the oval.

We CAN do it in LFS, so we DO IT.

Crazy Harry (Ovalidiot)
HL 36:26
PB 35:07
BD 34:66

P.S.: I´m only talking about the oval. AND: Isn´t warming up your tires another kind of "cheating" to get better hl´s?

[tweaK_05]

Bump Drafting is one of the most useful techniques, plain and simple. Me and my cousin used it all the time in karting. We'd pull away from the pack, and then battle it out or we'd team up and work our way through all of the traffic. This technique has transferred over to LFS without a problem. We both understand when to brake, and when not to bump. Hell, we even bump draft in corners. Do I do it to people I don't know? Yes. Is it controlled? Yes. Has there ever been an accident because of it? Yes, mostly when people slam on their brakes. Maybe if people started to realize that when they are race there’s going to be contact. I'd rather it be controlled then "non-intentional". Thats my 2 cents, and my first post. :)

[Crazy Harry]

Hell, we even bump draft in corners. Do I do it to people I don't know? Yes. Is it controlled? Yes. Has there ever been an accident because of it? Yes, mostly when people slam on their brakes. Maybe if people started to realize that when they are race there’s going to be contact. I'd rather it be controlled then "non-intentional".

You got it. And it´s funny, sometimes guys come to the oval, hating bd. After they get there first better pb by bd it´s "wow, that´s amazing!" and "please do it again, please!"...

But before anyone try: Bd isn´t good for egoistic racers. The car in front of you mostly gets a better time then you.... :tilt:

You guys wonna know, whats really boring? Using the break and the horn on the oval.:really:

Look and ask yourself: N00bish crashing or high skill driving? Bd in corners is a must to get a good pb.
http://rapidshare.de/files/10141667/Squeakys34_71.WMV.html

[SparkyDave]

I think that clip shows just how unrealistic bd is in formula cars ROFL:D

bd through corners is just plain idiotic in LFS ,although I dont spend much time at the basic oval maybe its less noticable how silly it is there :thumb: .There should not really be any contact when racing and certanly not on purpose bd has made good racecraft a little rarer , letting beginners think its ok to play this way will only drive standards down and cause accidents imo .

SD.

[Valkyrie]

ok i normaly keep quite but bumpdrafting is just silly but it happens most of the "bumpdrafting" in rw happens on ovals in cars like nascar's mainly saloon racing car's not F1 or indy and they don't bump not if they can help it its just good use of the draft
Using the draft from the car in front is a good technique for overtaking at the end of a straight (before the corner) or on a oval you will traveling much faster then the guy in front and if you time it right you will get round quicker than bumpdrafting anyday. If someone bumpdrafts me all i do is change postion on the track before the corner and let them past if there paying attention that is other wise they miss there braking point and fly off. Any contact in a racing car is not good it screws up the dynamics of your car and damages there's which is not a good idea and there is always a risk of sending both cars off.

[TagForce]

ok i normaly keep quite but bumpdrafting is just silly but it happens most of the "bumpdrafting" in rw happens on ovals in cars like nascar's mainly saloon racing car's not F1 or indy and they don't bump not if they can help it its just good use of the draft
Using the draft from the car in front is a good technique for overtaking at the end of a straight (before the corner) or on a oval you will traveling much faster then the guy in front and if you time it right you will get round quicker than bumpdrafting anyday. If someone bumpdrafts me all i do is change postion on the track before the corner and let them past if there paying attention that is other wise they miss there braking point and fly off. Any contact in a racing car is not good it screws up the dynamics of your car and damages there's which is not a good idea and there is always a risk of sending both cars off.

And again you fail to see the point of BD...
I can tell you that the normal drafting method does in fact NOT get you around the track faster. Since after one straight (we're talking oval here) you lose the draft completely and don't get it back until the straight after you've been drafted. The trick is to end up really close to the car in front, and gently nudging into his rear so as not to upset his car, and then just push him forward gently. When I bump you I don't want to pass you, I want you to hold your perfect line through all the corners... I can see where you're at, so I can get out of your draft and take the corner on a higher line... Then on corner exit I can get onto your gearbox again and bump you along the next straight, etc... This method is faster than passing all the time (although on the oval that is still faster than a single car can go).

[Valkyrie]

well then i kinda fail to see the point of bd the whole point of racing is to be first not bump up your pb lap times its wins that count not pbs

[Vain]

I can't see where it is fair against the leader or the fourth when the second and third bumpdraft each other towards the leader. So it should be forbidden, and it is in many real racing leagues (that runs under: contact between two vehicles on purpose).
Do it on your privat servers, but don't dare to use it with or against someone who didn't agree with it.
In my opinion bumpdrafting is cheating. In real life and LFS.

Vain

[bbman]

Crazy Harry, this video of yours really looks like n00bish ramming... :shrug: When I think of bumpdrafting, I think of contact of the bumpers ALL the time, not just ramming someone forward and coming back over and over again... :pillepall

[Crazy Harry]

Crazy Harry, this video of yours really looks like n00bish ramming... :shrug: When I think of bumpdrafting, I think of contact of the bumpers ALL the time, not just ramming someone forward and coming back over and over again... :pillepall

Oh, I forgot to install /insim towing eye... :pillepall


@Valkyrie: Your wrong."Normal" draft (2-man) can´t be faster than 34:9x.

[TagForce]

Valkyrie: Read my explanation of BD a bit higher up in the thread... BD is ALL about winning... The fact that it's also the best way to get a low pb has nothing to do with the practice of BD... At least not with people who know what they're doing. The only reason the pb times are mentioned is to show you how much of an advantage it can have...

Vain: Unfortunately for you, in most national touring car series it is NOT forbidden. However, the person doing the bumpdrafting will be held responsible (and possibly be penalized) for any crashes that are a result of it. Online as well as in real life it is a risk you take, but when executed properly the benefits for both drivers involved may well outweigh the risks.
How is it not fair to the other drivers? Isn't racing about finishing first? If bumpdrafting helps drivers gain on the leader, then it's not their fault that they (unlike the other drivers who don't BD) go faster. If you don't like the practice of BD, fine, don't do it. But either start doing it yourself, or quit bitchin' about it being cheating while it's just another form of strategy that you can (and should) use to WIN RACES. Seriously, don't do it if you don't want to, but accept the fact that 2 guys who are BD and beat you didn't do so by cheating, but by working together.

[Vain]

it's just another form of strategy that you can (and should) use to WIN RACES.Wrecking is also a strategy to WIN RACES. Yet, just because you win because you shove everyone off the track, wrecking isn't a good thing. The same goes for bumpdrafting.

Vain

[SparkyDave]

bumpdrafting is banned in most LFS leagues. I wonder why ? :D

SD.

[Ecret666]

only one thing. crashing is not a strategy for winning races! it`s a strategy for getting banned or kicked on servers! i think everyone should do what he want`s. if he want to bumpdraft good! if not, good for me, too! but you can`t look on wracking and bumpdrafting as the same! with bumpdrafting you`re not kicking people out! and if the 3 driver stays in the draft of the two bumpdrafter he gets better times then the two in front!

happy new year!

Ecret

[TagForce]

Wrecking is also a strategy to WIN RACES. Yet, just because you win because you shove everyone off the track, wrecking isn't a good thing. The same goes for bumpdrafting.

Vain

Wrecking is a strategy to finish alone... Not in first. There is a difference between punting cars into the wall, and pushing a car to gain speed. In the first, the other car doesn't finish, in the latter everyone finishes, but not necessarily in the order of speeds on hotlaps.

For now, let's just agree to disagree, because we're not ever going to agree on this subject on this forum.

[tweaK_05]

Yes, Wrecking is also another technique used to win races. But usually people don't get away with it. Thats why no one besides a few special little kids in demo use it, and they never seem to get away with it. I just don't see why people are affraid of taking a chance that can only benefit them if the process is done right. I mean you enter a race to get a chance at winning the race. The whole race is a chance, everytime you brake, it's a chance, everytime you take a corner, it's a chance, everytime you bump draft, guess what, it's a chance. And that's just another chance that's already on my "WILLING TO TAKE A CHANCE ON" list. :)

[keiran]

It's funny that most of the bumpdrafters in this topic or on oval F08 servers right now :scratchch What are you going to do when it comes to aero damage in LFS :shrug: :nod:

Keiran

[Fonnybone]

(I didn't go through ALL posts...)

I don't find bumpdrafting bad in itself. As long as it's ok with the one being
bumped (it's essential imo), i see it as just another trick to win.
I find it can be a good trick for team races. Having groups of cars
bumpdrafting to catch up to a leader or to help out a teamate. I don't
think it should be used on your competitors though, unless you know
each other well and everyone is ok with it.

The problem is when people 'take liberties' with your car, as someone
wrote so well. Don't come behind me and start bumping me if i don't
wanna. Rest assured you'll see red soon enough ! I'm pretty good at
maintaining control after a rear hit.

[cgrassham]

Most motorsports I watch never use bumpdrafting, I'd never heard of it until today, and it seems its only used in a tiny number or Motorsports. I mean, F1 is my favourite sport and could you imaging it being used in that? The danger would be immense! same goes for Champcar or the IRL.

I would like to say that I think its a stupid idea and the people who like using it have to ask themselves, have the other users I'm doing this to even heard of it and would they appreciate it. Its ok saying, bd is fine, whats the problem!? Well I wouldn't appreciate it, especially if I've never even heard of it before. I'd just assume its some n00b who hasn't realised that if he can't get past that he may have to back off before he hits me.

[TagForce]

Most motorsports I watch never use bumpdrafting, I'd never heard of it until today, and it seems its only used in a tiny number or Motorsports. I mean, F1 is my favourite sport and could you imaging it being used in that? The danger would be immense! same goes for Champcar or the IRL.

I can do nothing but kindly inform you that there are, in fact, several championships that do not involve cars with no roof, huge inverted wings front and back, and wheels that stick out like antennae. There indeed is a reason you don't see it in those classes, although I did watch a BMW World Series race this week (replay) where there actually were 2 drivers who DID bumpdraft... Even I thought they were mental.

It's funny that most of the bumpdrafters in this topic or on oval F08 servers right now What are you going to do when it comes to aero damage in LFS

Keiran

Bump more, because as long as you stay in someone's draft the aero damage doesn't affect you ;)
(not the answer you were looking for, was it? :D)


(I didn't go through ALL posts...)

I don't find bumpdrafting bad in itself. As long as it's ok with the one being
bumped (it's essential imo), i see it as just another trick to win.
I find it can be a good trick for team races. Having groups of cars
bumpdrafting to catch up to a leader or to help out a teamate. I don't
think it should be used on your competitors though, unless you know
each other well and everyone is ok with it.

The problem is when people 'take liberties' with your car, as someone
wrote so well. Don't come behind me and start bumping me if i don't
wanna. Rest assured you'll see red soon enough ! I'm pretty good at
maintaining control after a rear hit.


I agree with you except with the last part if you meant you'd hit the brakes... As has been said a couple times (read at least page 2, m8) there's no reason to take out a bumpdrafter... You could just tell him to stop. Oh, and in case you didn't catch that part... I'm talking about the people that nudge you gently, not the people that run into you with a 20mph difference in speeds, because I think that's insane as much as you do.

If you didn't mean that:
I agree with you. :D

[tweaK_05]

Most motorsports I watch never use bumpdrafting, I'd never heard of it until today, and it seems its only used in a tiny number or Motorsports. I mean, F1 is my favourite sport and could you imaging it being used in that? The danger would be immense! same goes for Champcar or the IRL.

I would like to say that I think its a stupid idea and the people who like using it have to ask themselves, have the other users I'm doing this to even heard of it and would they appreciate it. Its ok saying, bd is fine, whats the problem!? Well I wouldn't appreciate it, especially if I've never even heard of it before. I'd just assume its some n00b who hasn't realised that if he can't get past that he may have to back off before he hits me.

Like TagForce said, there’s a ton of other motorsports where it is used. And using the 3 most popular ones where it isn't used, doesn't really prove anything besides the fact that bump drafting can't be used in anything open wheel, with weak/no bumpers, for the obvious reason. And if this is mostly what you watch/race, then surely you're going to think it’s stupid.

[cgrassham]

I can do nothing but kindly inform you that there are, in fact, several championships that do not involve cars with no roof, huge inverted wings front and back, and wheels that stick out like antennae. There indeed is a reason you don't see it in those classes, although I did watch a BMW World Series race this week (replay) where there actually were 2 drivers who DID bumpdraft... Even I thought they were mental.

Got it in one. The BMW cars are built to last and the drivers are young and don't care. I have never seen it used in any other single seater series as its dangerous. I don't believe that its as common as you seem to be making out either, even the BTCC don't use it and thats becoming a bumper car series.

[cgrassham]

Like TagForce said, there’s a ton of other motorsports where it is used. And using the 3 most popular ones where it isn't used, doesn't really prove anything besides the fact that bump drafting can't be used in anything open wheel, with weak/no bumpers, for the obvious reason. And if this is mostly what you watch/race, then surely you're going to think it’s stupid.

Name some series then apart from NASCAR. I used the three "biggest ones" as you say as a good example of where it isn't used, nothing more. As I said above I watch other series too and its not used there.

[TagForce]

Got it in one. The BMW cars are built to last and the drivers are young and don't care. I have never seen it used in any other single seater series as its dangerous. I don't believe that its as common as you seem to be making out either, even the BTCC don't use it and thats becoming a bumper car series.

What?? There's tons of BD in BTCC... It's just not as obvious as in LFS... Almost all touring car series has bumpdrafting.

[tristancliffe]

I've watched BTCC for years and never seen it. Bumping yes. But not Bumpdrafting.

[ajp71]

I can't be bothered to finish reading this thread, but some things to point out:

1. Bumpdrafting is only ever done on ovals, few R/C racers even know what it is.

2. Bumpdrafting is never done in single seaters, dirty air would stop cars coming close, and if they do the damage to the wings would create a very dangerous situation.

3. Touring car drivers do not bumpdraft, they simply hit each other because they are dum idiots.

4. The vast majority of people will be pretty pissed off if you ram them at anywhere other than the oval.

[TagForce]

Bumping yes. But not Bumpdrafting.

Bumping on the straights or bumping in turns?
There's plenty of times when 2 or more drivers in BTCC line up behind eachother and push eachother forwards... Especially on the few tracks which have straights... Whether you think so or not, that's bumpdrafting...


1. Bumpdrafting is only ever done on ovals, few R/C racers even know what it is.

2. Bumpdrafting is never done in single seaters, dirty air would stop cars coming close, and if they do the damage to the wings would create a very dangerous situation.

3. Touring car drivers do not bumpdraft, they simply hit each other because they are dum idiots.

4. The vast majority of people will be pretty pissed off if you ram them at anywhere other than the oval.


1. Wrong... Don't know where you got that idea, but it's wrong... Watch the video posted in this thread of the Dijon race... That's not an oval, and it is bumpdrafting.

2. Agree, although I did see a couple do it for a couple of laps, and it pretty much worked. Some open wheel cars produce no dirty air, just a big hole in the air, which is exactly what they wanna do in F1. It's still too dangerous to do irl in open wheelers.

3. Yeah, agreed... But the ones that are not dumb idiots bumpdraft and simply say they're dumb idiots... Who's to know? :D

4. Once again... BD != ramming. It's pushing a car, not ramming it through the soundbarrier. I think you would hardly notice a correct bumpdraft any other way than the revs of the car going up and it feeling a little light on the steering.

[cgrassham]

I watch almost every round of the BTCC and I can tell you that they DO NOT bumpdraft.

[tristancliffe]

For starters at the BTCC speeds the draft isn't strong enough relative to the mass of the cars to make bump drafting worthwhile.

You're confusing bumping on the straights with bumpdrafting, two VERY different things. And I think it's make nearly all your posts in this thread wrong, as each time you have been talking about bumping.

[Fonnybone]

4. Once again... BD != ramming. It's pushing a car, not ramming it through the soundbarrier. I think you would hardly notice a correct bumpdraft any other way than the revs of the car going up and it feeling a little light on the steering.

Hopefully the non-programmers here will understand that "!=" means "NOT equal to..." hehe :nod:

Btw, i would brake if i get some guy on my tail that won't stop pushing. Why should i have to ruin my race to type something
like "stop bumping me!" ?! If it was more of a problem, i'd simply bind something to the f-keys, but so far, it rarely happens to me.
When it does, they usually don't even care what you think, so asking, telling, even yelling won't change their attitude much. I've even
had some ram me off the track because i wouldn't 'cooperate'. You know the type, the one that calls you an idiot after, lol, big man !
Just to make things even clearer, i'll brake once someone has started bumping me, i'll usually try to move off-line first, but if that
person changes his line again and insists on pushing me, i'll simply brake. Hey, i can be an idiot too. :nod:

[tweaK_05]

Name some series then apart from NASCAR. I used the three "biggest ones" as you say as a good example of where it isn't used, nothing more. As I said above I watch other series too and its not used there.

Like I said earlier, it’s being used all the time in karting; I've seen it being used at the local track stock car track and the local road course with the BMW series. Just because it's not on TV, doesn't mean it's not being used. As for NASCAR, I wouldn’t even really call that bump drafting, it’s more of a “If I let off the throttle, It’ll take another lap for my car to regain its speed. So I’ll just bump the person in front of me instead.”



$rant_topic = "bump drafting";


echo "$rant";


Essentially what I'm trying to get at here is that bump drafting is very useful technique for cars that are very momentum driven, such as the XFG, as its underpowered engine can only pull the car along for so long. When you start racing the XFG, you are required to be on top of your game constantly, and being on top of that sometimes isn’t enough, as the driver in the lead is also on top of his. So when you’re racing against someone that’s close in skill level to yourself, you won’t be taking 1 second out of the 4 second lead that he has on you. You’ll be lucky if you get a quarter of that, and in sprint racing, there’s usually not enough laps to close that gap by just out driving someone. Drivers are forced to use another technique to close the gap between their car and the leaders. This technique is bump drafting. Although it can be risky if not done properly, bump drafting has a lot of benefits, but the main one is the extra boost in speed. This helps with closing the gap on the leader with out forcing the driver to be put under all the pressure of becoming the fastest car on the track. This also saves on tire wear and concentration, allowing the driver to maintain the amount of traction and focus he had before he started bump drafting, which will be crucial when it comes time to pass. I know all of this from experience. This is all stuff I had to over come as driver over the past 8 years of my career.

Hopefully that is understandable, my writing skills are not quite up to par due to my lack of sleep.

[Crazy Harry]

Just come to the [FM] Oval JuNkieS Server and watch the races. :tilt:

[Vain]

tweaK_05:
So bumpdrafting is a technique to close up on other drivers you are elsewhise unable to beat in direct comparison because you are slower?

Vain

[tweaK_05]

tweaK_05:
So bumpdrafting is a technique to close up on other drivers you are elsewhise unable to beat in direct comparison because you are slower?

Vain

What if he started poll, and you started last? Doesn't mean hes faster than you, he just had a better position. And thats what happens most of the time in karting, as the starting position for the first heat is randomly selected.

[Vain]

Well, in most LFS leagues they are selected in a qualification and a sprint race. And on other online servers they are selected by either qualification or finishing order of the last race.

Vain

[Ardent]

Just come to the [FM] Oval JuNkieS Server and watch the races. :tilt:

No http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/traurig/g015.gif

[tweaK_05]

Well, in most LFS leagues they are selected in a qualification and a sprint race. And on other online servers they are selected by either qualification or finishing order of the last race.

Vain

Yes I understand that, but it still doesn't keep a driver from bump drafting. There are just so many situations that bump drafting can benefit the drivers that are doing it, it’s not really worth getting into it. I just used that one as an example for my argument.

So bumpdrafting is a technique to close up on other drivers you are elsewhise unable to beat in direct comparison because you are slower?

Should have added: If it was a head to head race, obviously the better driver would win. But as many of us know, the best driver doesn't always win the race. Sometimes it's the better team.

Edit: forgot an s on sometimes. ;)

[keiran]

TagForce I really can't be bothered arguing the fact across it is not done in single seaters, it's not done in touring cars, karting, r/c racing.

I'm sure somewhere in the MSA rule book it says contact most be avoided if possible. I really don't think you watch things like BTCC properly and see that they are just running close to each other and not pusing each other along

You go find us some pictures of single seaters bumpdrafting.

Nice read for people who don't think bump drafting is idiotic :thumb:
http://www.thatsracin.com/mld/thatsracin/archives/10938272.htm
Stright from a Nascar type person to :razz:

"I think it is absolutely, positively idiotic. Period, end of conversation," Kyle Petty said of tactics such as bump drafting. "At 180 mph, whether you're running in a straight line or in the corner, you shouldn't be running into people. We should be better drivers than (that).

Keiran

[ajp71]

^^ Agree with you anyone who thinks R/C racers bumpdraft is mistaken, no point in having a fight about it :shrug:

[tweaK_05]

TagForce I really can't be bothered arguing the fact across it is not done in single seaters, it's not done in touring cars, karting, r/c racing.

I'm sure somewhere in the MSA rule book it says contact most be avoided if possible. I really don't think you watch things like BTCC properly and see that they are just running close to each other and not pusing each other along

You go find us some pictures of single seaters bumpdrafting.

Nice read for people who don't think bump drafting is idiotic :thumb:
http://www.thatsracin.com/mld/thatsracin/archives/10938272.htm
Stright from a Nascar type person to :razz:



Keiran

http://www.racing-reference.com/driver?id=pettyky01

Yea, that's really working for Kyle. In the last 749 races he entered, hes won 8. :thumb:

Bump Drafting wouldn't be so bad in NASCAR if it wasn't for the aero package / restrictor plate combo. They just can't afford to let off the gas, which causes a lot of accidents. Who is to blame? :shrug:

[tristancliffe]

Bumpdrafting would work at NASCAR speeds, so it could be used there. But the aero forces at karting, R/C and even BTCC levels are simply not strong enough to allow bumpdrafting. The increase in speed either driver would get in those categories from it would be so miniscule that it just wouldn't work.

[TagForce]

TagForce I really can't be bothered arguing the fact across it is not done in single seaters, it's not done in touring cars, karting, r/c racing.

I'm sure somewhere in the MSA rule book it says contact most be avoided if possible. I really don't think you watch things like BTCC properly and see that they are just running close to each other and not pusing each other along

You go find us some pictures of single seaters bumpdrafting.

Nice read for people who don't think bump drafting is idiotic :thumb:
http://www.thatsracin.com/mld/thatsracin/archives/10938272.htm
Stright from a Nascar type person to :razz:



Keiran

Let's just agree to disagree then ;) At least I know not to do it to you.

Why would I go find you pictures of single seaters BD? I just told you it doesn't happen, and I've only ever seen the 2 idiots in the BMW World Series do it. But to say it's impossible is taking it to the other extreme, because it is possible... Just insane.

As for the Kyle Petty quote... At least you know why he's always hung out to dry on the speedways...

[Gunn]

I'm sure somewhere in the MSA rule book it says contact most be avoided if possible.In fact most race series say to avoid car to car contact. For very good reason too. Apart from the obvious potential for malicious action there is a safety factor. These two things alone over-ride any logical argument for bump drafting as legitmate racecraft, even if they do provide an advantage to both cars when done correctly by practiced drivers. As has been mentioned above by others, in LFS there is an added danger of lag causing one or both cars to spin off and ruin everyone else's race.

You might enjoy it as a novelty way of running erroneous lap times, but in LFS in a race all deliberate contact should be avoided. For all you know, your antics are about to ruin someone's race. How can there be any further debate in light of this?

If you break it down, two bumpdrafters are teaming up with each other to provide an advantage over other cars not in a position to use the technique in order to produce lap times that would not be normally possible by any other skilled driver in a fast car. In many cases (as people have said in their posts here) there are instances where there is no agreement between two drivers, and one is about to get bumped by surprise, possibly to the peril of him and other cars nearby. Avoidable contact, avoidable conflict, avoidable accident. Where again is the argument in favour of bumpdrafting in LFS? If you refrain from bumpdrafting you won't be any worse off than all of the other racers who are sensibly avoiding contact, conflict and accidents and still fighting hand over fist lap after lap enjoying the racing as much as anybody else.

Please don't lag me into oblivion just because you think I could do with a little push.

[TagForce]

I'm going to quit trying to prove my point...

Here's a vid of a KART on a long straight bumpdrafting another kart...

First a little nudge, and then when the lead car nods a long ass push (no that's NOT just running really really close) along the huge straightaway...

There is, in my book, absolutely nothing wrong with this kind of bumpdrafting in LFS...
(it's in 2 parts, because 1.95MB on the forum != 1.95MB in windows :D)

[tweaK_05]

Bumpdrafting would work at NASCAR speeds, so it could be used there. But the aero forces at karting, R/C and even BTCC levels are simply not strong enough to allow bumpdrafting. The increase in speed either driver would get in those categories from it would be so miniscule that it just wouldn't work.

Can you share your definition of bump drafting? I just want to make sure we are talking about the samething here.

[ScarySquirrel]

I had my first experience of bump drafting tonight, some guy just started pushing me from behind on the oval in the FO8, just touched 200mph and got my a very quick PB, he also managed to push me up to catch first place, although i did finish 2nd.

he crashed after a lap or so though :)

[Gunn]

There is, in my book, absolutely nothing wrong with this kind of bumpdrafting in LFS...Then you don't understand lag. If you bump others unexpectedly then you don't care if they crash. It's just simple logic really, no opinion required.

[ajp71]

^^ I'd call that on an oval, in a kart the speeds are much slower and small amounts of contact are part of the game.

[tweaK_05]

Then you don't understand lag. If you bump others unexpectedly then you don't care if they crash. It's just simple logic really, no opinion required.

How is it unexpected? I don't know about you but I watch how people are going to pass me, so I can setup a counter-attack. And if he isn't pulling out to pass, this can only mean two things, hes going to draft me, or bump me. I'll be prepared for either one.

[TagForce]

Then you don't understand lag. If you bump others unexpectedly then you don't care if they crash. It's just simple logic really, no opinion required.

Have you ever raced me? Because then you'd know your logic doesn't make much sense... I'm probably one of the nicest people on the track. Yes, I make my share of mistakes, but I don't go slamming doors shut that I leave open, nor try to push into holes that do not exist, like some of the aliens I've raced over the years. Why? Because I want the other drivers to finish the race as much as I want myself to.

I understand lag better than most people, since it makes a huge impact on who I'll bump, and who not (ever since NR 4). There's less spike lag in LFS than there was in NR2003S (sudden warping and stuff)... And we used to BD all the time there (ESCORS championships), and it went wrong about as often as it does in the real world (ok, bit more often, but not noticably much more). Out of experience, I can tell you that bumpdrafting is safe enough when you know who to do it with and who not to do it with.

The problem remains that there are too many people BD that have no clue when and how to do it.

[TagForce]

^^ I'd call that on an oval, in a kart the speeds are much slower and small amounts of contact are part of the game.

Doesn't matter if it's on an oval or on a tight and twisty circuit like your local kart track... It's a kart, and it's BD, which you said never happened (actually, you didn't, Keiran did, but you agreed)... Do you really think other racers won't take that opportunity when it presents itself (like in BTCC)? There's 2 videos of bumpdrafting in non-NASCAR series in this thread (one RC, one kart), and still you keep saying it doesn't happen anywhere but NASCAR... How much proof do you need?

[tristancliffe]

Can you share your definition of bump drafting? I just want to make sure we are talking about the samething here.

Sure.

Bumpdrafting (as in LFS, and as under discussion here [originally]) is when the following car is 'sucked' along by the lead car until the following cars speed (car 2) is greater than that of the lead car (car 1). So V1 < V2 (where V is velocity).

Now, car 2 uses his additional kinetic energy (0.5mv^2) to collide inelastically (but elastically in LFS I think) with car 1. This imparts an impulse upon car 1, which creates a positive change in car 1's momentum. This in turn increases car 1's kinetic energy and, therefore, speed.

Now V1 > V2, and V1ii > V1i.

Therefore Car 1 is travelling slightly faster than car 2, and a small gap opens up between the two. This gap creates a low pressure region (gauge pressure) between 1 and 2, which causes a slipstream/draft effect. The speed (and hence kinetic energy & momentum) of car 2 is increased due to this, causing the gap to decrease. When the gap equals zero, the same transfer of speed, momentum and energy (all the same thing really) is transferred from 2 to 1, causing an increase in speed, creating a gap, creating a draft. V1n > V1i and V2n > V2i. Ad infinitum (or until car 1 brakes because car 2 is driven by a conceited eejit).



Bumpdrafting is all about the draft. If the draft is not strong, then it cannot occur. The draft is not strong enough in karts, and as such it CANNOT occur. Anyone who mistakenly thinks that bumpdrafting exists in karts or R/C cars (or even BTCC) is mistaken and deluded. Car 2 in that instance could have more power, less drag, higher Tn-1 exit speed or some other advantage that causes him to bump car 1. It may be at a point on the circuit where passing is not possible, but car 2 wants to retain as much speed as possible - he can do this by sacrificing some of his speed to car 1 and thus they both travel quicker. It is not, until speeds reach much over 130mph in my estimation, that bumpdrafting (i.e. with a draft or slipstream) could actually provide any worthwhile speed benefit.

Having said that, I will still brake if someone tries it with me. And don't say I'm mean or wrong for doing that - cos now I've warned you all, and you can't blame me when you forget I said it :D

[TagForce]

Tristan, you forget one thing... Aerodynamically designed vehicles create less of a slipstream than the touring car type cars which aren't... So a formula 1 type car would create a hole about 1 meter long, while a BTCC car would create a hole about 10 meters long. So while an F1 car may have a draft at 130mph, a BTCC car may have a draft at 100km/h.

Tell me what a "worthwhile speed benefit" is, if you would be so kind...

As for it not existing in R/C cars or karts... Watch the vids, and read this quote from a TransAm driver:


Stu Hayner: I love running in the Trans-Am Series. Period!

Trans-Am has so many top drivers, beautiful bodywork, and the
right sound and feel for true racing cars. Trans-Am has the best
racing can provide. Trans-Am cars look like real cars (NO sissy
4 door/FWD's here). They sound of hi-performance-American
muscle. The Trans-Am Series race at tracks that turn both ways,
left and right. The drivers are not afraid to rub fenders, bump
draft and take chances. We race on some of the best road
racetracks in the USA and Canada. Mid Ohio, Road America, Lime
Rock 2and Road Atlanta, to name a few. We support the CART
Series at Long Beach, Denver, Rd America, and the Cleveland Grand
Prix. What more could any racing fan want?


Why would he mention Bumpdrafting when it doesn't happen?

(I won't forget not to bumpdraft you)

[tristancliffe]

TransAm is a bit quicker than BTCC, so I fully agree that bumpdrafting is technically possible in that series, and others of similar speed.

I watched the karting vid already thanks, and it doesn't look to me like bumpdrafting. Bumping, sure, but not because of or aided by a draft. What karts are they, and how fast are they going.

As for the R/C vid, I couldn't see it in my quick scan of this thread 3 pages (50 posts per page). There was one rapidshare link with no description (something about Formula cars I think), but I didn't download it. And I'd still stick to my theory that it wouldn't be a draft that caused the bump, but just a higher speed for whatever reason.

But still, regardless of whether is technically achievable, or whether certain real 'racers' use the technique, it should be avoided in the vast majority of motorsport in my opinion. I can't force my opinion down your throat, so on this matter I will have to disagree with you. You think it's acceptable, I do not. Ever. I'm just pointing out the physcial reasons why certain classes couldn't use it.

As for reasonable gains - thats a matter of opinion ultimately. I'd have though that gaining half a mile per hour for half a second isn't worth the risk (of performance limiting damage, or a crash), or the lack of situational awareness (you're concentrating on not causing a crash, and so miss your braking point). For example - watch the kart driver. He forgets where he is and goes too far right, loses speed, never catches up, and is further behind after the straight than he was at the start. Great advantage he enjoyed.

Edit: Stu Hayner (whoever he is) might be wrong? Lots of race drivers aren't clever people (just ask Caroll Smith). He could have heard the term from someone and thought it was gospel. Just because an unheard of (world-wide speaking) driver claims something is real doesn't mean it is (in the same way that if someone proves my above physics lesson wrong I am willing to accept that). I could state that all lemons are in fact whales, and that being a monkey means I must know. But it doesn't make it fact (I chose the objects at random there, did you notice).

[keiran]

Doesn't matter if it's on an oval or on a tight and twisty circuit like your local kart track... It's a kart, and it's BD, which you said never happened (actually, you didn't, Keiran did, but you agreed)... Do you really think other racers won't take that opportunity when it presents itself (like in BTCC)? There's 2 videos of bumpdrafting in non-NASCAR series in this thread (one RC, one kart), and still you keep saying it doesn't happen anywhere but NASCAR... How much proof do you need?
Not sure what your on about with karting but over here when I raced karts I was pulled up to the clerk of the course for tapping the back of another kart because he was having trouble acclerating and it caught me out. He never got knocked off the track or anything. The clerk of the course told me off saying that basically that I shouldn't have made so much contact with the kart in front. Even though it was only a small tap because I was trying to stay on the thorttle to out acclerate him down the stright the clerk told me off. It is foolish to do it delibreately. I've been unlucky enough to have a massive engine blow up while doing about 50mph and having someone ram up the rear of me. The force of him hitting me caused me to spin round and round ending up right in the middle of the track in front of a pack of 10 odd karts :schwitz:Had he been bumping me up the rear like you say people do in comeptive racing it could have caused a far bigger accident.

The main reason contact has to be avoided in motorsport is for safety. I've watched and taken part in big Scottish karting events and no one bumped into each other. If there was bump drafting in karting we would have to replace our rear number plates and brackets every race :pillepall

Also for the R/C bump drafting thing you have to be joking me. I've been lucky enough to have raced in the same events as some of the worlds best in 1/10th electric touring cars and they never even touched each other. They would run close but they would never run into each other. A great site to watch a grid of 10 of the worlds best race hard and fairly :D

Keiran

[Gunn]

Have you ever raced me? Because then you'd know your logic doesn't make much sense... Lol, it isn't my logic. Like I said, opinions are irrelevant in light of the facts, even mine.

Point 1: We know already that cars with a higher latency will appear to jump around in relation to your car. We know that odd collisions often occur in these cases and they are best avoided.

Point 2: We know that many people consider a bump from behind to be disruptive and would prefer no interference. We also know that some racers will take offense to this and act according to their interpretation the action with unpredictable outcomes for all.

Point 3: We know that in the majority of real life race series that deliberate contact is illegal or of questionable ethics and so is frowned upon.

These three points have nothing to do with my or your opinion. A logical process of deduction after considering these points leads me to suggest:

a: A real potential exists for disruption or accidents during and after a driver takes it upon himself to bumpdraft, whether the leading car is expecting it or not.

b: A real potential exists for conflict and animosity between drivers due to these actions, even if no accident or apparent disruption occurs.

c: Bumpdrafting, or any deliberate contact is not at all common or accepted in the greater world of motor racing, with very few exceptions (some of which seem to be in conflict with themselves and with popular opinion).

Weighing up these points and deductions, even with a healthy dose of scepticism, one can arrive at the conclusion that bumpdrafting in LFS is a risky venture which may cause accidents, fights and general on-track mayhem.

I could harp-on on the poor structural integrity of formula car aerodynamic devices, and how an F1 car disturbs the air for up to 100metres behind it as it races along, that the hole it punches in the air is way more then one metre and how oval racing is not by any means a universal example of motor racing behaviour and regulations, but I don't need to because the logical conclusions arrived at previously negate the need for such elaboration. So my actual opinion is irrelevant. The facts tell me what I need to know, whether I choose to accept it or not.

[tweaK_05]

Sure.

Bumpdrafting (as in LFS, and as under discussion here [originally]) is when the following car is 'sucked' along by the lead car until the following cars speed (car 2) is greater than that of the lead car (car 1). So V1 < V2 (where V is velocity).

Now, car 2 uses his additional kinetic energy (0.5mv^2) to collide inelastically (but elastically in LFS I think) with car 1. This imparts an impulse upon car 1, which creates a positive change in car 1's momentum. This in turn increases car 1's kinetic energy and, therefore, speed.

Now V1 > V2, and V1ii > V1i.

Therefore Car 1 is travelling slightly faster than car 2, and a small gap opens up between the two. This gap creates a low pressure region (gauge pressure) between 1 and 2, which causes a slipstream/draft effect. The speed (and hence kinetic energy & momentum) of car 2 is increased due to this, causing the gap to decrease. When the gap equals zero, the same transfer of speed, momentum and energy (all the same thing really) is transferred from 2 to 1, causing an increase in speed, creating a gap, creating a draft. V1n > V1i and V2n > V2i. Ad infinitum (or until car 1 brakes because car 2 is driven by a conceited eejit).



Bumpdrafting is all about the draft. If the draft is not strong, then it cannot occur. The draft is not strong enough in karts, and as such it CANNOT occur. Anyone who mistakenly thinks that bumpdrafting exists in karts or R/C cars (or even BTCC) is mistaken and deluded. Car 2 in that instance could have more power, less drag, higher Tn-1 exit speed or some other advantage that causes him to bump car 1. It may be at a point on the circuit where passing is not possible, but car 2 wants to retain as much speed as possible - he can do this by sacrificing some of his speed to car 1 and thus they both travel quicker. It is not, until speeds reach much over 130mph in my estimation, that bumpdrafting (i.e. with a draft or slipstream) could actually provide any worthwhile speed benefit.

Having said that, I will still brake if someone tries it with me. And don't say I'm mean or wrong for doing that - cos now I've warned you all, and you can't blame me when you forget I said it :D

Okay, one thing still is bugging me from that explaination. If karts can't produce that strong of a draft to allow for bump drafting from any distance, then how is drafting a bicycle and another human possible?

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0092.shtml

Drafting in bicycling, running, and inline skating However, drafting isn't limited to the world of motor sports alone. Runners, bicyclers, and inline skaters also employ the technique, but in a slightly different way. While racecar drivers use drafting to increase their speed, their non-motor sports counterparts emphasize reducing energy consumption. A runner utilizes drafting by following closely behind an opponent. The opponent breaks the headwind and creates a slipstream in his wake where the second runner can get by exerting less energy while still maintaining the same speed. In a marathon race, this technique may save 5 to 10 seconds per mile.



If a human body can give off a slipstream to allow for drafting, why can't the exposed human body in a kart give off that same effect?

[tristancliffe]

Thats a good question, and the sign of a good discussion. However, I am going to bed now, and I will think about it overnight and tomorrow before I reply.

[Ardent]

Okay, one thing still is bugging me from that explaination. If karts can't produce that strong of a draft to allow for bump drafting from any distance, then how is drafting a bicycle and another human possible?

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0092.shtml




If a human body can give off a slipstream to allow for drafting, why can't the exposed human body in a kart give off that same effect?

the answer to your question is already given in the text you quoted. On a bicycle the draft is not used to gain speed (as tristancliffe explained) but for reducing the energy needed to maintain a given speed.
If you ever drove with a bicycle (and i'm sure you did) then you will have felt air resistance which you have to work against. Someone who is following you closely will have less air resistance hence he needs less energy to go your speed and will probably be less tired after arrival.

Professional bicycle teams who drive tour de france usually consist of one top driver and 5 or 6 "helpers", who are just there to lower the air resistance for their top driver letting him draft as long as they can. They are basically sacrificed in the process because they have used up all their energy long before the race ends.

[tweaK_05]

the answer to your question is already given in the text you quoted. On a bicycle the draft is not used to gain speed (as tristancliffe explained) but for reducing the energy needed to maintain a given speed.
If you ever drove with a bicycle (and i'm sure you did) then you will have felt air resistance which you have to work against. Someone who is following you closely will have less air resistance hence he needs less energy to go your speed and will probably be less tired after arrival.

Professional bicycle teams who drive tour de france usually consist of one top driver and 5 or 6 "helpers", who are just there to lower the air resistance for their top driver letting him draft as long as they can. They are basically sacrificed in the process because they have used up all their energy long before the race ends.

Yes but you are missing the point, If they can draft, so can karts. But for karts, it's not to lower the energy required to stay at that speed, it's to raise the speed and use the same amount of energy.

[Ardent]

Yes but you are missing the point, If they can draft, so can karts. But for karts, it's not to lower the energy required to stay at that speed, it's to raise the speed and use the same amount of energy.

tristancliffe didn't say that karts cannot draft, he said it has no big effect. That is because the overall top speed of karts is low and probably because kart tracks usually don't have very long straights so the result is not really worth it.

If you had to produce the energy of the kart with your feet, then it would have a huge effect of course :) Thats what I wanted to say, both cases are not really comparable.

[TagForce]

Lol, it isn't my logic. Like I said, opinions are irrelevant in light of the facts, even mine.

Point 1: We know already that cars with a higher latency will appear to jump around in relation to your car. We know that odd collisions often occur in these cases and they are best avoided.


Which I already said I do avoid.. I don't go around bumping every car on the track.


Point 2: We know that many people consider a bump from behind to be disruptive and would prefer no interference. We also know that some racers will take offense to this and act according to their interpretation the action with unpredictable outcomes for all.


That's not the problem of the bumper, but a lack of discipline of the bumpee... So if someone messes up an overtaking manouvre, and pushes me to the outside of the track, that gives me the right to punt him off in retaliation on the next turn?


Point 3: We know that in the majority of real life race series that deliberate contact is illegal or of questionable ethics and so is frowned upon.


And that's why there are rulebooks... And if the rulebooks say "no bumpdrafting" then I shall not bumpdraft... No such rulebook exists in LFS, only in the leagues. So in public servers, it's allowed unless otherwise stated. Frowned upon or not. Besides, it's really fun when you find someone you can work with race after race... So what's the big issue? It's all in good fun. Don't agree with BD, let me know, and I might just stop doing it just for you.


These three points have nothing to do with my or your opinion. A logical process of deduction after considering these points leads me to suggest:

a: A real potential exists for disruption or accidents during and after a driver takes it upon himself to bumpdraft, whether the leading car is expecting it or not.

b: A real potential exists for conflict and animosity between drivers due to these actions, even if no accident or apparent disruption occurs.

c: Bumpdrafting, or any deliberate contact is not at all common or accepted in the greater world of motor racing, with very few exceptions (some of which seem to be in conflict with themselves and with popular opinion).


Very good points, but not only valid for BD. Forget point C and replace BD with overtaking. Same conclusion. So is overtaking bad? Has nothing to do with BD in itself, but more with the amount of stupid people on servers. Like I said before, there's no harm in BD when done correctly, and when both drivers are in agreement.

As for point C, LFS doesn't represent the "greater world of motor racing", LFS represents "all of motor racing", which includes the part that does think BD is ok. It IS a part of motor racing, and as such it will be done in LFS... Nothing anybody can do about it in public servers with no set rulebook.


Weighing up these points and deductions, even with a healthy dose of scepticism, one can arrive at the conclusion that bumpdrafting in LFS is a risky venture which may cause accidents, fights and general on-track mayhem.


Yes, and could make for some really fun races too.


I could harp-on on the poor structural integrity of formula car aerodynamic devices, and how an F1 car disturbs the air for up to 100metres behind it as it races along, that the hole it punches in the air is way more then one metre and how oval racing is not by any means a universal example of motor racing behaviour and regulations, but I don't need to because the logical conclusions arrived at previously negate the need for such elaboration.


Disturbing the air, yes, but the vacuum a formula car makes is very small because of the way the air flows around it (1 meter was just exaggerated to show the point, but not far from the truth, watch the spray of rain behind a formula car, it goes straight up... the vacuum (draft) is where there's no spray). Dirty air is not a draft or slipstream. Slipstream is the hole a car creates in the air, sucking the next car towards it. A formula car is designed NOT to do that.


So my actual opinion is irrelevant. The facts tell me what I need to know, whether I choose to accept it or not.

But the facts as you represent them are open for interpretation. It's like religion. Everything is presented as being facts, but the only fact is that it is only an opinion on how to interpret the so-called facts that is presented as fact.

[TagForce]

If you had to produce the energy of the kart with your feet, then it would have a huge effect of course :) Thats what I wanted to say, both cases are not really comparable.

The only difference is the source of energy... So both cases are pretty much the same. Aerodynamics don't change.

[Gunn]

But the facts as you represent them are open for interpretation. It's like religion. Everything is presented as being facts, but the only fact is that it is only an opinion on how to interpret the so-called facts that is presented as fact.No they aren't open for interpretation. No it isn't like religion at all. No this is not an opinion.

[tristancliffe]

Disturbing the air, yes, but the vacuum a formula car makes is very small because of the way the air flows around it (1 meter was just exaggerated to show the point, but not far from the truth, watch the spray of rain behind a formula car, it goes straight up... the vacuum (draft) is where there's no spray). Dirty air is not a draft or slipstream. Slipstream is the hole a car creates in the air, sucking the next car towards it. A formula car is designed NOT to do that.

What on earth are you on about Vacuums. There won't be a vacuum. To get a draft all you need is a situation where the air pressure following a car is lower than the air pressure not following a car.

In an F1 car the air is thrown about, directed upward, eddy currents and vorticies are set up and what have you. All of this helps to create a lower pressure region behind the car.

What the F1 designers try to do is reduce this pressure drop (which they can't do completely), and increase the rate at which the low pressure region recovers - thus not allowing the following car to gain a draft. Add in to that that modern F1 cars are designed to work 'best' in clean, predictable air (like a CFD program can cope with), but loses efficiency in 'dirty', turbulent air, and you have a recipe for low draft, low overtaking situations.

Spouting nonsense about the air going upwards and therefore not creating a vacuum just makes you look silly. And if you look silly, your chances of convincing us that bumpdrafting is used to any great extent in real life are greatly diminshed.


Now, about the bicycle. It's already been mentioned that the karts, bikes, R/C cars etc all generate low pressure regions behind them, and therefore slipstreams. It's a nature of objects travelling through fluids.

But a bicycle is powered by the legs. Legs get tired - engines don't. Any energy saved by slipstreaming will save the legs of that slipstreamer to give him a later advantage.The same occurs in NASCAR. NOT being the lead driver, I believe, can save you quite a lot of fuel being sucked along.

Now, if a bicycle tried to bumpdraft there would be a crash. But also the gain in speed isn't that much - it's more about saving energy, which is the square of speed. A kart isn't trying to save energy (except perhaps in an endurance race, like all cars), but trying to maximise it's speed. But the little gains of speed a draft are likely to have been mostly lost in the inelastic collision when two karts touch. R/C cars - I can imagine the body squashes and aborbs the energy rather than channel it purely into the velocity of the lead car.

*breathes out*

[ajp71]

This is just getting stupid, regardless of what is actually possible it is not done IRL R/C racing due to the danger it presents on a track which actually goes right. Sure if you put Nascar racers in R/C cars they'd bash into each other driving down the straight, but if you went and drove into the back of the average R/C racer he'd tell you to f*** off.

[TagForce]

What on earth are you on about Vacuums. There won't be a vacuum. To get a draft all you need is a situation where the air pressure following a car is lower than the air pressure not following a car.

In an F1 car the air is thrown about, directed upward, eddy currents and vorticies are set up and what have you. All of this helps to create a lower pressure region behind the car.

What the F1 designers try to do is reduce this pressure drop (which they can't do completely), and increase the rate at which the low pressure region recovers - thus not allowing the following car to gain a draft. Add in to that that modern F1 cars are designed to work 'best' in clean, predictable air (like a CFD program can cope with), but loses efficiency in 'dirty', turbulent air, and you have a recipe for low draft, low overtaking situations.

Spouting nonsense about the air going upwards and therefore not creating a vacuum just makes you look silly. And if you look silly, your chances of convincing us that bumpdrafting is used to any great extent in real life are greatly diminshed.


Well, I didn't see a need to get technical and vacuum is what best describes a low pressure area, since there's nothing with less pressure than no pressure at all. No matter what you do with the air around the car, as soon as there is less air directly behind the car than there is elsewhere, that's a partial vacuum and that's a low pressure area... And that's the only way a low pressure area is created... Turbulent air (dirty air) is NOT a low pressure area, it's a variable pressure area... Where air molecules collide there is high pressure, where they've bounced off of eachother there's low pressure. That's why F1 cars are inefficient in dirty air, there's unequal pressure working on the wings and pushing against the car.

That's also how the wings of cars and planes work. Air sticks to a denser object when it flows passed it. So the longer part of a 2 sided wing will have the exact same amount of air stuck to it, over a larger area, which means there's less air in that area than the other side, which is a partial vacuum, which creates a lower pressure, which creates downforce, or lift, respectively. What actually happens is that the air molecules travel a larger distance in the same amount of time, but while it is being used to explain what happens it is totally irrelevant to the creation of lift or downforce. The speed of air molecules has nothing to do with air pressure, only the amount of air molecules in a certain area does.

And F1 designers not only try to create as small a pocket of low pressure as possible so others can't draft them... The smaller the low pressure area behind the car, the more pressure there is at the back of the car, which simply means the lower the drag of the car will be (and the faster it will go).

It's not nonsense Tristan, it's explaining what happens in an easier to understand way than you do. I've only barely managed to keep the damn golfball my teacher loved out of the discussion.

I never said great extend, just a lot more than "only in NASCAR"...
It happens a whole lot more than you guys want to believe... And less than you seem to think I want to prove...

[TagForce]

This is just getting stupid, regardless of what is actually possible it is not done IRL R/C racing due to the danger it presents on a track which actually goes right. Sure if you put Nascar racers in R/C cars they'd bash into each other driving down the straight, but if you went and drove into the back of the average R/C racer he'd tell you to f*** off.

Yes, this is getting stupid, because I will for the 3rd time tell you that not everybody thinks like you... There are plenty of RL racers that do not mind an occasional bumpdraft, as has been proven over and over again in this thread... You keep referring to BD as "bashing into eachother" which it is not.
Only in your mind is BD slamming other cars... I'll go look for that link to that vid...

Here it is... Examples of guys who don't mind bumpdrafting, and one who does mind bumpdrafting. http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=29907#post29907
(it's a 25 minute video so take time watching it)

[tristancliffe]

Where air molecules collide there is high pressure, where they've bounced off of eachother there's low pressure.What has your teacher been doing? What a crazy way to describe it...
That's why F1 cars are inefficient in dirty air, there's unequal pressure working on the wings and pushing against the car.No, it's because they're designed to work with laminar airflow. The pressure differences across a real bit of laminar airflow (or laminar enough) make little difference.
That's also how the wings of cars and planes work. Air sticks to a denser object when it flows passed it.What are you on. The air doesn't know or care how dense an object is. A wing is equally good make from foam than steel, and steel is less dense. So the longer part of a 2 sided wing will have the exact same amount of air stuck to it, over a larger area, which means there's less air in that area than the other side, which is a partial vacuum, which creates a lower pressure, which creates downforce, or lift, respectively.Was your teacher on drugs. The normal way to describe in extremely basic terms how wings work is to say that the air has to flow faster over one side (the longer side) than the other. Faster air means lower pressure, which means greater pressure difference = resultant force. This talk of air sticking to wings, and the same amount of air being spread over a bigger area is extremely weird.
What actually happens is that the air molecules travel a larger distance in the same amount of time, but while it is being used to explain what happens it is totally irrelevant to the creation of lift or downforce. The speed of air molecules has nothing to do with air pressure, only the amount of air molecules in a certain area does.Erm, no. Velocity is directly linked to air pressure. If you had one mole of air (fixed number of molecules) at speed x they should have pressure z. Move said mole of air at y m/s and the pressure will drop from z. Same amount of air, just different speeds.

And F1 designers not only try to create as small a pocket of low pressure as possible so others can't draft them... The smaller the low pressure area behind the car, the more pressure there is at the back of the car, which simply means the lower the drag of the car will be (and the faster it will go).Erm, in simple terms this is the closest you've been to being right. But the designers not only design to keep the low pressure region behind the car small and fast recovering, but also to maintain good air behaviour over all the wings, inhibit separation, and a whole host of other factors. You can't make something for nothing, and to generate lots of downforce you MUST create lots of drag. And lots of drag tends to mean lots of slipstream. If F1 front wings were less effected by 'dirty' air then most people wouldn't 'know' about vorticies.

So far you haven't convinced me of your understanding of aerodynamics, which I feel are an absolute must to have any definitive answer to bumpdrafting (the whole point of this topic). As it is, you are left with conjecture and the voice of one or two unknown American drivers who say that bumpdrafting happens. But so far no one has make a single convincing explanation that it exists.

[ajp71]

Yes, this is getting stupid, because I will for the 3rd time tell you that not everybody thinks like you... There are plenty of RL racers that do not mind an occasional bumpdraft, as has been proven over and over again in this thread... You keep referring to BD as "bashing into eachother" which it is not.
Only in your mind is BD slamming other cars... I'll go look for that link to that vid...

Here it is... Examples of guys who don't mind bumpdrafting, and one who does mind bumpdrafting. http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=29907#post29907
(it's a 25 minute video so take time watching it)

You may be able to find the odd video of cars bumpdrafting on a long straight on a R/C, but it is not normal to do it on a R/C, most UK racers have never heard of it and don't know what it is, it may work, but it's a technique that is not used on real life racetracks, simply because it's never occured to people to try it :shrug:

The fact remains that accidents on straights can be some of the worst in cars not designed to take high speed impacts like any of todays professional racing cars. I have seen several big crashes on straights, simply because the speeds are greater there, I have seen accidents resulting in fairly bad injuries in road cars from contact on straights and I know there was the double fatality when two Cobra replicas hit each other on the straight at Cadwell recently.

It's more because doing something like bumpdrafting creates an uneccesary danger on a part of the track with no run off areas that most club racers will not consider playing games on the straights. There are a large number of people here who are connected to club racing in some way and who go about there racing in a completely different mind set to those who drive big powerful cars round in circles who know there's little danger posed to them due to all the safety devices in their cars, the simple fact is in a car which has only had simple safety mods like harnesses and a cage a 100 mph T-bone or slamming into a wall is likely to be a fatal accident, not just climbing out swearing a bit explaining to a TV camera why it wasn't your fault, picking your cheque and repeating it next week.

[mrodgers]

This arguement is ridiculous. There are enough differences in opinions to justify that you should not bumpdraft anyone but your buddies who want you to. You shouldn't say, "I'll bumpdraft unless you tell me to stop." You should NOT bumpdraft unless someone tells you to do it. It's like me saying I will break into your house and steal your computer since it's better than mine. But if you tell me you don't want me to, then I won't.

It is my understanding that in drafting in LFS, the front car does not get a push from the draft as they do IRL at say Daytona in Nascar. So, the 2nd car gets a big speed boost from the draft and it does nothing to the lead car. Therefore the speeds of the 2 cars are too great for proper bumpdrafting. It seems to me the 2nd car will bump, push the lead car ahead, then the lead will lose that momentum, back down and the 2nd car will bump again. This will continue and I don't call that bumpdrafting, I call it bashing the car in front. In Nascar on the big high speed tracks, bumpdrafting occurs because in the draft, BOTH cars are faster than one, not just the 2nd car. But the 2nd car can be SLIGHTLY faster than the 1st and can push the 1st car a bit making them both just a little faster. Not the big speed differences like we have in LFS since the 1st car does not get a speed advantage from drafting. Therefore, in LFS, bumpdrafting is too dangerous because the 2nd car is much too fast for it to be pushing the 1st. If you get the car slightly out of wack pushing the other, you can easily spin the 1st one.

And I saw a comment I think that in Nascar they bumpdraft because if they lift up on the throttle, then they loose momentum and the draft and get hung out to dry. Yes if they lift, they loose, but they do not lift, they just tap the brakes a bit to slow their momentum slightly if they can not pull out and pass or don't want to yet. They don't bumpdraft because they can't lift. They bumpdraft at Daytona and Talladega because of the restrictor plates restricting their speed and the team up to work together in a very long race to move to the front. It is expected at the big restrictor plate races and does not happen at the other tracks. Well, in the case of Bush spinning out I think it was Biffle at Lowes? they sometimes make excuses that they were trying to bumpdraft when in reality they spun out another car whether on purpose or by accident.

[NotAnIllusion]

No doubt bumpdrafting is bad & dangerous in LFS with the aero model, control methods, lag and whatnots. I did have a great race earlier though on Bl1/XFG:
The leader ([Fluid] Parise) was getting away with Dizman in 2nd and me in 3rd. Upon exiting the chicane after T1 I was right behind P2 and asked (it's bound to a key now :p) if I can BD. Affirmative answer meant we both significantly gained on the leader, and in fact, Parise was so busy finding the "lol" key to comment on the BD question that he pulled the next corner wide and we both overtook him :D

See, no probs! :)

[Akuma66]

No doubt bumpdrafting is bad & dangerous in LFS with the aero model, control methods, lag and whatnots. I did have a great race earlier though on Bl1/XFG:
The leader ([Fluid] Parise) was getting away with Dizman in 2nd and me in 3rd. Upon exiting the chicane after T1 I was right behind P2 and asked (it's bound to a key now :p) if I can BD. Affirmative answer meant we both significantly gained on the leader, and in fact, Parise was so busy finding the "lol" key to comment on the BD question that he pulled the next corner wide and we both overtook him :D

See, no probs! :)

Now THAT I dont mind, if boths racers are up for it then if yer not in danger of going off into someone else then go for it. :thumb: Just dont do it to me.

[keiran]

I think the argument on this topic is more to do with peoples interpretation of bump drafting. Mrodgers basically sums it up for me in that my interpretation of bump drafting is to do with the air flow and that they aren't just hitting each others bumpers to push them along faster.

Tristan is right on the R/C cars shell which will absorb the energy. I've never seen such a move done in real r/c racing and if someone ever tried that on me I'd be shouting at them to stop. Another factor is it's far to difficult to judge what the car in front is doing with such a rapid accleration. I remember hearing the stats of a Nitro 1/10th touring car R/C car and it could acclerate from 0-60 in 1second. That would be hard enough to follow with your eyes yet along while bumping into someone.

Keiran

[RacingSimFan]

Bumpdrafting blows. Period.

As much as I appreciate your well thought out posts supporting it, I hate it with an unadulterated passion when people do it to me in NR2003. Repeat: HATE IT!!!!!

It accomplishes little and just makes me nervous and angry at the same time. Not a good frame of mind to race with. Even real life NASCAR drivers acknowledge its pathetic risk-reward ratio.

So do me a favor when I'm on track: go do your kinky driving with someone else.

[tweaK_05]

Now, about the bicycle. It's already been mentioned that the karts, bikes, R/C cars etc all generate low pressure regions behind them, and therefore slipstreams. It's a nature of objects travelling through fluids.

But a bicycle is powered by the legs. Legs get tired - engines don't. Any energy saved by slipstreaming will save the legs of that slipstreamer to give him a later advantage.The same occurs in NASCAR. NOT being the lead driver, I believe, can save you quite a lot of fuel being sucked along.

Now, if a bicycle tried to bumpdraft there would be a crash. But also the gain in speed isn't that much - it's more about saving energy, which is the square of speed. A kart isn't trying to save energy (except perhaps in an endurance race, like all cars), but trying to maximise it's speed. But the little gains of speed a draft are likely to have been mostly lost in the inelastic collision when two karts touch. R/C cars - I can imagine the body squashes and aborbs the energy rather than channel it purely into the velocity of the lead car.

*breathes out*

Yes, we understand the saved energy, which is why most NASCAR drivers use it. They have to run 200 laps, I run 15/20. I also understand the slipstream of a kart is very little, but when you add maritime winds to the equation, the slipstream effect only gets amplified. And even if the karts are geared differently, the Kart 2 will accerlate even faster from the draft of Kart 1. So if Kart 2 transfers that extra energy into Kart 1, then drafts him, and regains even more energy back, would you still not call that a bump draft?


No doubt bumpdrafting is bad & dangerous in LFS with the aero model, control methods, lag and whatnots. I did have a great race earlier though on Bl1/XFG:
The leader ([Fluid] Parise) was getting away with Dizman in 2nd and me in 3rd. Upon exiting the chicane after T1 I was right behind P2 and asked (it's bound to a key now :p) if I can BD. Affirmative answer meant we both significantly gained on the leader, and in fact, Parise was so busy finding the "lol" key to comment on the BD question that he pulled the next corner wide and we both overtook him :D

See, no probs! :)
Yea, we were bump drafting too. That was some of the best racing that I ever did on demo. You guys were bump drafting trying to catch Parise, while I was driving the wheels of my XFG trying to catch you guys. Which was nearly impossible, until you started battling for position. Then it was an all out battle. :)

[tweaK_05]

I remember hearing the stats of a Nitro 1/10th touring car R/C car and it could acclerate from 0-60 in 1second. That would be hard enough to follow with your eyes yet along while bumping into someone.

Yea, I had a hard enough time driving mine in a straight line let alone bumping another down the back straight.