Engine damage indicator

[BIGMAN]

With Y patch in endurance race is engine damage very important.
Some indicator like CT will be very useful.

[tristancliffe]

Just like in real lif... oh wait, they do it by feel, sound and performance, just like you can.

-1 for pointless unrealistic arcadey assists

[AndroidXP]

The clutch temp gauge should be removed too, btw. As should the other damage indicators. And tyre temp display (you could argue about making it less detailed or only visible from the pits, though).

[BIGMAN]

Just like in real lif... oh wait, they do it by feel, sound and performance, just like you can.

-1 for pointless unrealistic arcadey assists

just like CT, car damage and tyre indicator and map...
dont like dont see
and arcade assists are brake help and custom view not some indicator

[tristancliffe]

Remove CT indicator
Remove car damage indicator
Remove tyre indicator
Remove map

Are you trying to tell me that the above things don't assist you in some way? Do they sit there and neither help nor hinder you, never telling you anything useful? I think you'll find they are assisting you, and are therefore assists or an arcade (unrealistic) nature.

[BIGMAN]

In real life every driver is alone-no mechanics no support no radio
NOTHING ONLY DRIVER AND EMPTY UNIVERSE :)

[tristancliffe]

No indeed. But over 99% of all drivers in the world will not have anything other than a few engine temp displays in the car, don't have radios, and don't even have pitboards!

Damage - felt/heard
Tyre temps - felt, and measured in the pitlane
Clutch temp - felt (when it's too late usually)
Map - memorised weeks if not months in advance

You can use capitals all you like, but it doesn't mean LFS should cater for those better off skidding in NFS.

[evilpimp]

Maybe it would be good if tire temperatures would be shown only when you are doing a pitstop then?

As for the damage well sometimes its pretty hard to feel or hear it in LFS. In fact you dont hear it at all.

And what do ''skidders'' have to do with any of this?

[tristancliffe]

Of course you hear it - when the body drags on the ground it makes a noise. Oddly enough in real life, you don't hear the bodywork damage until it rubs on the ground. As for suspension damage you feel it when you try and drive. And engine damage is heard and felt both in LFS and reality.

Skidders in NFS are those that should be asking for more overlays. Not simulation drivers.

[evilpimp]

I agree but the damage isnt heard until its very severe. Sometimes not even felt but I guess that happens in life too.
As for engin damage I think its harder to hear it in LFS then in real life unless you go from 5th gear and drop to 1st in LFS. Then its heard well enough. I dont have much experience with cars in real life (cant drive yet =_=) so I wont argue with this but I think that if in real life you cannot know the tire temperatures unless you are in the pits then it should be like this.

Btw, one thing that should be implemented would be engin heat maybe?

[tristancliffe]

Yes, water and oil temperatures would be great.

But why should we be able to know our tyre temps/pressures on the track (except perhaps in the Sauber)? Why not be more real, and create more challenge (and less 'perfect but silly' setups) by having live temps in pit garage, but not elsewhere (and now allowing people to shift-p to the garage to get accurate figures by adding a time delay to their appearance when insta-pitting.

[Storm_Cloud]

Or wipe the tyre temps when you Shift-P, you can only see them if you drive into the garage.

I would like a bit more feel from the FFB before we dump the live tyre temps. Even better add visual indications for wear and blistering (I primarily drive open wheelers)

[Woz]

This harks back to hardcore mode again where people should be forced into Shift F mode during a race IMHO.

As a server option like the No reset option.

[evilpimp]

Problem with that is that Shift F disables rcm messages therefore you wont see messages sent by the race admins such as the flags.

If that can be changed then I guess it would be good to have that. Im sure many leagues would start using it.

[flymike91]

well thats good. in real life you actually see the flags. If we're being realism nazis, there would be no communication with other drivers. ever.

[evilpimp]

well thats good. in real life you actually see the flags. If we're being realism nazis, there would be no communication with other drivers. ever.

Agreed but in real life you actually see the flags, things that you cant see in LFS when racing for example.

*Edit* This has just turned into a general improvement suggestion thread heh, not on topic anymore :P but I wouldnt care whether or not engin damage indicators were implemented. It would be less realistic however.

[Stang70Fastback]

How about this. In hotlap mode, you can see the temps - that way at least giving people the ability to watch the tires and adjust their setups accordingly, but in any other racing mode, you don't see the temps. I can tell when my tires are overheating without the temp guages - from both the smoke and the loss of traction.

[Megin]

In real life, real race driver can get information about engine, clutch, transmisions, tires by radio from team, team engineers. In LFS you are alone behind computer and u can preset these informations at screen.

If u want simulation as u write u have to think about sumulation of all team members and crew at the pit wall. And if u ask for information thru radio team have to answer.... GOOD LUCK with creating this system, u will need it!!!! :nod:

[tristancliffe]

No, in real life driver can't get information over a radio because most don't have radios. And even the ones that do don't have live telemetry about clutch, engine, transmission or tyres, so they couldn't be told anything over it anyway. Don't confuse one or two money mad racing series with REAL racing which is at the club level.

[Gekkibi]

Engine's condition can be monitored by water temperature meter, oil temperature meter and oil pressure meter. I would prefer those three meters over some kind of engine damage -meter.

[Bluebird B B]

Damage - felt/heard - No system gauges irl which report it

Tyre temps - felt, and measured in the pitlane - Hej! these things are not expensive irl, so i think it is not urealistic to have it

Clutch temp - felt (when it's too late usually) Clutch on some cars are made of paper in lfs. But anyway irl getting a tempature reading is possible, but irl not very usefull. Its fine to have it in lfs i think.

Map - memorised weeks if not months in advance - GPS systems? I agree irl no driver ever had such a system to see graphicly how much the competion is ahead or behind. For now it is more a safety system to check for upcoming traffic after a spin or when exiting pits.


ontopic:
engine damage indicator: thats ok: Just as in irl a light that goes on if anything is not within specified parameters. But not more than that.

One other thing, engine is more likely to blow-up/destroyed when over revved. Slow powerloss due overrevving is less likely on racing-engines.

[DeMS]

I would rather prefer it to be as following :

On-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled via server configuration

Off-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled by user EXCEPT on hot lap mode, where all should be turned off

This way, people would choose the server that fits their skill level the most, and would solve some other trouble as well.

Rather than an indicator of engine damage, I would prefer to see some smoke when the radiator is blown or some analogue effect that would tell me that the thing ain't going fine.

To complete it all, it would be a nice touch if after the race, you would get a report of what has failed or what degree of damage did every/most/most important parts of the car get, to improve people's driving.

[Woz]

I would rather prefer it to be as following :

On-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled via server configuration

Off-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled by user EXCEPT on hot lap mode, where all should be turned off

This way, people would choose the server that fits their skill level the most, and would solve some other trouble as well.

Rather than an indicator of engine damage, I would prefer to see some smoke when the radiator is blown or some analogue effect that would tell me that the thing ain't going fine.

To complete it all, it would be a nice touch if after the race, you would get a report of what has failed or what degree of damage did every/most/most important parts of the car get, to improve people's driving.

You can hear engine damage, why have a guage that is improssible to have IRL.

Use your ears :)

[March Hare]

To complete it all, it would be a nice touch if after the race, you would get a report of what has failed or what degree of damage did every/most/most important parts of the car get, to improve people's driving.
When engine damage is included in LFS this is the way I would want it shown.

About the tyre temps in on-line racing. To know the temperature and pressure of the air inside the tyre, while on the move, is cheap and easy. To get a general temp of the tyre surface is quite cheap and easy. To get detailed temperature information about specific areas of the tyre is expensive but quite easy.
IMO (which might just be crap) the GTR cars and the faster SS cars should have the fully detailed temp readings. The road cars can do fine without.
Off-line or practising I would like to have all the data because it helps setting the car up.
I like the idea about seeing the temps only while pitting.

@tristan
Is radio communication and telemetry really that rare in racing?
I'm actually quite shocked by this.

[AndroidXP]

To get detailed temperature information about specific areas of the tyre is expensive but quite easy.Not completely correct, getting the amount of detail LFS gives us would be a very tricky task, considering how in RL you'd only be able to measure surface temp, whereas LFS also gives us info about the rubber core temp.

[tristancliffe]

@tristan
Is radio communication and telemetry really that rare in racing?
I'm actually quite shocked by this.

Yes, it's very rare. Pit to car (one way only) radios are very expensive. Telemetry even more so (requiring data bursts, something to receive it, someone to analyse it etc). Both cost more than most club racers cars!!!!! And most club racers (including single seater drivers) either work on their own, or have one helper.

There isn't enough time, money, experience or people in club racing to make radio and telemetry widespread.

More and more people have datalogging, but you can only look at that afterwards.

[Kanzai]

I'd maybe say throw in an engine light in the dash but thats it. I can't say having a damage meter is really needed :S

[Not Sure]

I would rather prefer it to be as following :

On-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled via server configuration

Off-line races :
Indicators enabled/disabled by user EXCEPT on hot lap mode, where all should be turned off

This way, people would choose the server that fits their skill level the most, and would solve some other trouble as well.

Rather than an indicator of engine damage, I would prefer to see some smoke when the radiator is blown or some analogue effect that would tell me that the thing ain't going fine.

To complete it all, it would be a nice touch if after the race, you would get a report of what has failed or what degree of damage did every/most/most important parts of the car get, to improve people's driving.

+1

[March Hare]

Not completely correct, getting the amount of detail LFS gives us would be a very tricky task, considering how in RL you'd only be able to measure surface temp, whereas LFS also gives us info about the rubber core temp.
From the surface temp and the air temp inside the tyre you can calculate an aproximation for the core temp. It's not spot on but gives you an idea.

@tristan
Live for Speed - Club racing simulator :D

[tristancliffe]

Well, most of it is. From the UF1 to the UFR they're more club level cars. The FOX and FBM aren't much above it, and would probably not have telemetry. The big GTRs, FO8 and BF1 would probably have both, although you'd be surprised how little information is given to the driver based on the telemetry.

[DeMS]

You can hear engine damage, why have a guage that is improssible to have IRL.

Use your ears :)

Actually, I don't want a gauge at all, I just want those 'special effects' (smoke, water pouring and such) to actually tell me what part of the engine is broken. That is, when engine damage is fully implemented.

In any way, though, I never had such issues with engines (playing offline as of now, will go online when I feel confident of not causing massive wrecks :p), just when I wanted to blow a couple of tyres to see how the car would react (took a FWD on a straight, max speed, then put rear gear at full throttle... It was hot :] ), but that's about it.

And about the special effects, I mean it so, for example, when a radiator is blown, smoke usually comes out of the radiator mounting point (that would stop many wreckers, as one hit at ~40km/h faster than the other car, radiator would go bye bye), or when the turbo is blown, lots of smoke come and you lose all the power, or when you start the car on cold temperatures, some smoke would come out from the exhaust tube, or when the engine is putting a too poor mix, smoke should come out with the corresponding colour (I don't remember if it was white or dark, never had such failures :shrug:), and... Well, I guess you get the message :]

I'm in for realism, but as long as it leaves room to newcomers to learn the basics to a certain degree so they are not a nuisance to existing seasoned drivers.

[Gekkibi]

+1 for (better) engine damage. However, it has been suggested before. Special effects, like smoke, would be a great addition (Where is my smoke mod??++)

[Bluebird B B]

"Pit to car (one way only) radios are very expensive."

Why? anybody who has some experience with electronics can built it himself.
Small legal simple devices area available for about €120. Radio receivers and transmitters of whatever type for short distances are cheap and small.

So why is it expensive for racing?


Datacollection will be more expensive, the software, all the sensors.. I can understand that, but it is not high-tech anymore. The analysis-software however, will be as high-tech as the team budget can afford :D

[tristancliffe]

Once you've got transmitters on the car (where do you put them in the car? There isn't a lot of left over space in a single seater :p), stuff in your helmet, a headset, a reciever, some wires, some batteries, then your car happens to be in range and the quality happens to be good enough, the costs, time and difficulty escalate.

And then there is the problem of what to say. For example, what can my father, on the pitwall, actually tell me as I drive by that I don't already know?

[Gekkibi]

Smallest tranceiver I have used was smaller than a matchbox... And size != RMS++. It had 5W @ 2m and 2W @ 70cm.

[DeMS]

"Pit to car (one way only) radios are very expensive."

Why? anybody who has some experience with electronics can built it himself.
Small legal simple devices area available for about €120. Radio receivers and transmitters of whatever type for short distances are cheap and small.

So why is it expensive for racing?


Datacollection will be more expensive, the software, all the sensors.. I can understand that, but it is not high-tech anymore. The analysis-software however, will be as high-tech as the team budget can afford :D

I'm rather sure, on the other side, that it's quite hard to find on a cheap fashion:
a) A one-way radio that covers the distances of your typical race track (up to 3km on small ones, a lot more than that on big tracks) on a plain, level terrain.
b) A good quality headset that you can put inside your helmet without your ears hurting too much that you can hear something close to human voices from it. Add extra cash if you also want to understand them.
c) Some data collecting hardware-software system that is useful enough to tell you something you don't know so people from your pit wall can send some useful information (apart from position, which is something you should already know anyway), which includes another radio-component to send data.
d) Someone either foolish or dedicated enough to stay on pit wall to look at the data and communicate with you in an understandable fashion, giving relevant bits and pieces of relevant information (go and find that person, it's quite hard without paying or being into a club).

Keep in mind that :
a) Even F1 headsets/radios are not crystal clear and sometimes they have to shout the same things more than once.
b) On non-level terrain radios tend to be almost useless. WRC provides teams with radio coverage having a plane to send the radio feed and giving different frequencies to each team.

Not cheap.

[Gekkibi]

I'm rather sure, on the other side, that it's quite hard to find on a cheap fashion:
a) A one-way radio that covers the distances of your typical race track (up to 3km on small ones, a lot more than that on big tracks) on a plain, level terrain.
b) A good quality headset that you can put inside your helmet without your ears hurting too much that you can hear something close to human voices from it. Add extra cash if you also want to understand them.
c) Some data collecting hardware-software system that is useful enough to tell you something you don't know so people from your pit wall can send some useful information (apart from position, which is something you should already know anyway), which includes another radio-component to send data.
d) Someone either foolish or dedicated enough to stay on pit wall to look at the data and communicate with you in an understandable fashion, giving relevant bits and pieces of relevant information (go and find that person, it's quite hard without paying or being into a club).

a) Not true. Club-racers can use 68 MHz VHF-transceivers. Costs about 150+ euros and the yearly license 16 euros. Distance in a forest-conditions (Worst condition) is over 5 kilometers with crappy antenna. With better one, you can achieve over 15 kilometer. "Better" racers can buy an own frequency from 150 MHz bandwith. Radio costs about 200+ euros and the yearly license about 50 euros.
b) Not true. Costs about 200+ euros to get a decent one (Autocom, for example </product placement>).
c) Depends. Only difference between voice and data is the modulation. Cut it and you get binary. Even I have used this kind of radio transmitter (Sent telemetry from a plane to ground). Costed about 30 euros, built myself. If you want aftermarket product, it would cost much much more. But why should we want to pay more for the same thing..?
d) No comment on that one. Beg your wife to do it? :)

[tristancliffe]

a) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
b) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
c) Did you miss the point. His point was that to make use of a radio properly you either need very long races, or live (or burst) telemetry to the pitwall. Most club racers can't afford that.
d) Unless wife is very much into the racing scene, and the engineering world, how can you expect her to know what the data (if you manage to save up enough to afford telemetry and radios by only using 2nd hand tyres for 3 years) means, and what would actually be useful for the driver to know?

Me, for example. I have a nice set of dials. I know water temp, oil temp, fuel pressure (though the gauge was meant for injection, so our measily 2.5psi doesn't make the needle move much :p) and oil pressure. I also have engine revs. In addition there is a nice light that tells me about oil pressure and flashes brightly if it drops too much (what I call an idiot light, and is something EVERY racing car needs), and I have two LEDS that tell me what the datalogger and onboard camera are doing. I'm shortly getting an onboard lap timer display (hoping to be part of a betatesting team) as well, so I have live feedback of my driving on a sector by sector and lap by lap basis.

What, exactly, could someone on the pitwall tell me? And even if you do manage to think of something, couldn't it go on a home built pitboard that costs about £20?

[Gekkibi]

a) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
b) I can't afford that. I doubt many club racers could.
c) Did you miss the point. His point was that to make use of a radio properly you either need very long races, or live (or burst) telemetry to the pitwall. Most club racers can't afford that.
d) Unless wife is very much into the racing scene, and the engineering world, how can you expect her to know what the data (if you manage to save up enough to afford telemetry and radios by only using 2nd hand tyres for 3 years) means, and what would actually be useful for the driver to know?

a) Work harder. Decent steering wheel costs about that much.
b) Work harder. Decent steering wheel costs about that much.
c) I understood the point, and you can design own system for fraction of the costs of an aftermarket product.
d) Actually, that was a joke. :P

What, exactly, could someone on the pitwall tell me? And even if you do manage to think of something, couldn't it go on a home built pitboard that costs about £20?

The point is that you don't need telemetry, as you have so much meters and indicators. And I guess no club-racer would need such gadget either. Only reason for telemetry in a racing car is that if it doesn't have enough space in cockpit for meters/indicators/screens.

[tristancliffe]

a) Decent steering wheel is round and has suede on it. My car came with one. It's fine.
b) As above
c) You can design a product that will take my datalogging and, in a single burst as it crosses the line, allow it to pop up on a laptop carefully prepared for viewing with a decent amount of reliability for not much? I'll give you £50 to do it for our car. It's a DL1 datalogger. Sadly, a bought system is several thousand pounds for live telemetry. Not including a laptop.
d) So, who is meant to read this information in that case?

Have you seen how small my dashboard is? In that case a saloon car will never need telemetry as they have more dashboard square metres than I have bodywork square metres!!!!

[Stang70Fastback]

a) Decent steering wheel is round and has suede on it. My car came with one. It's fine.
b) As above

Obviously if TRISTAN wouldn't spend $300 on some datalogging equipment, I'm fairly certain any serious trackday racer wouldn't either.:scratchch

[Gekkibi]

a) Decent steering wheel is round and has suede on it. My car came with one. It's fine.
b) As above
c) You can design a product that will take my datalogging and, in a single burst as it crosses the line, allow it to pop up on a laptop carefully prepared for viewing with a decent amount of reliability for not much? I'll give you £50 to do it for our car. It's a DL1 datalogger. Sadly, a bought system is several thousand pounds for live telemetry. Not including a laptop.
d) So, who is meant to read this information in that case?

Have you seen how small my dashboard is? In that case a saloon car will never need telemetry as they have more dashboard square metres than I have bodywork square metres!!!!

a&b clarification: I meant steering wheel controller.
And trust me, it is not hard to make system what takes data from so-called datalogging and sends it through radio frequency. I have made MUCH complicated systems. Does datalogger have some kind of serial port for aftermarket-product? If yes, then it is already in binary form (Pin 1 is xx..xx1, pin 2 is xx.x1x etc). Either change it to BCD or use gray-code just in case, then let it cut the modulation of a radio and voi'la. Alternatively, you could use any kind of data-mode out there (AMTOR, PACTOR, G-TOR, you name it). Then you have a receiver that does it backwards. And finally, software what turpurates these binary-codes.

Does it sound too complicated? If so, you don't know much about radios. But then again, you don't have to. What I mean is that radio transmitters, or "one-way-radios" aren't high-tech traction beams a'la Star Wars. They are made by men...

[tristancliffe]

a&b - what is a steering wheel controller? Surely that's the driver?

Maybe it isn't if you know about that sort of thing. But I don't, and I suspect most people don't either. I have no idea of the serial output of the DL1, although it is written somewhere (not that I understood what you wrote, or would understand what they write). But I'm pretty sure that the cost would be far too expensive for most people.

Stang - We spent about $1000 on datalogging (in total), and that's for a basic system without direct provision for telemetry. But I'll be in hell before I buy a bling steering wheel - I prefer analogue gauges.

[Gekkibi]

a&b - what is a steering wheel controller? Surely that's the driver?

Maybe it isn't if you know about that sort of thing. But I don't, and I suspect most people don't either. I have no idea of the serial output of the DL1, although it is written somewhere (not that I understood what you wrote, or would understand what they write). But I'm pretty sure that the cost would be far too expensive for most people.

Stang - We spent about $1000 on datalogging (in total), and that's for a basic system without direct provision for telemetry. But I'll be in hell before I buy a bling steering wheel - I prefer analogue gauges.

Sorry, wrote it unclearly. I meant "steering wheel controller" as a game controller, like G25.

Problem is not the price of components, it is the price of manhours. I could make one for myself and it costs less than 100 euros. However, if I am going to make it to someone else, of course I would like to have some kind of compensation for my time. So, I noticed that my example sucks because not everyone knows how to build a radio. Sorry about that. :)

[tristancliffe]

I'm getting confused. I don't see what a game controller has to do with the real life validity of telemetry and pit-car radio systems.

As with nearly all things, it's manhours. Materials are cheap, people (except in India and China and so on) aren't. As I would gain zero benefit with a radio or telemetry I'll have to give it a miss. If ever I think I could benefit, I'll give you a call :)

[Gekkibi]

I'm getting confused. I don't see what a game controller has to do with the real life validity of telemetry and pit-car radio systems.

I admit it, it was bad example. The reason I used it because I bet you have bought multiple steering wheels in the past for LFS, right? So, if you can afford a steering wheel controller, why can't you afford a radio?

As with nearly all things, it's manhours. Materials are cheap, people (except in India and China and so on) aren't. As I would gain zero benefit with a radio or telemetry I'll have to give it a miss. If ever I think I could benefit, I'll give you a call :)

Please do. I am eager to design that kind of system. Or at least try. :)
/end of subject...

To get back to topic, I say my opinions once again:
-1 to damage indicator (Like clutch temperature).
+1 to oil temperature meter, oil pressure meter and water temperature meter.

[tristancliffe]

I admit it, it was bad example. The reason I used it because I bet you have bought multiple steering wheels in the past for LFS, right? So, if you can afford a steering wheel controller, why can't you afford a radio?Oh I see. My bad, I wasn't thinking. Yes, I've spent money on LFS stuff, but now all that money is going into racing. I can only just afford race entries and normal running costs, not extras! :)
Please do. I am eager to design that kind of system. Or at least try. :)
/end of subject...Don't wait up for me. It may be a while before I can afford such a thing.
To get back to topic, I say my opinions once again:
-1 to damage indicator (Like clutch temperature).
+1 to oil temperature meter, oil pressure meter and water temperature meter.Agreed.

[LiveForBoobs]

Remove CT indicator
Remove car damage indicator
Remove tyre indicator
Remove map

Remove shift+P
Remove shift+S
When you crash you have to wait for the safety car to remove it from track.
When your car is damaged, you have to wait days until you can race with it again.
If your engine is damaged, race is over. You have to get a new engine, or fix the older one, which will also take days.
You have to pay for each fix.
Remove displays of lap times and splits. If you want to know your times, you need to pit and/or the team telling you by some device on your car.
Remove mouse and keyboard options.
You can't just adjust your setup by changing some values. You actually need to know mechanics.

Oh cmon... this is a game. Whats next? Have some device that hurts you in case you crash? -__-

[tristancliffe]

Remove shift+P -agreed
Remove shift+S -agreed
When you crash you have to wait for the safety car to remove it from track. -agreed
When your car is damaged, you have to wait days until you can race with it again. -disagreed, but not instant repair
If your engine is damaged, race is over. See you next month.
You have to pay for each fix. - disgree, but not instant fix
Remove displays of lap times and splits. If you want to know your times, you need to pit and/or the team telling you by some device on your car. -agreed
Remove mouse and keyboard options. -agreed
You can't just adjust your setup by changing some values. You actually need to know mechanics. -agreed

Obviously most of these apply only to a 'hardcore' mode, allowing pick up racing to continue. But that goes without saying I'm sure.

[Gekkibi]

I agree with tristancliffe: As realistic as possible. Sure, I would like to have traction control as an option to other road cars than fz50, but only because you can have TC on a road cars (as an option) in real life. Hell, I would like to have cruise control, electric windows and windshield wipers if they would have a meaning in racing situations. But because they won't (At least yet, maybe after Scawen codes rain...), no need for them in LFS.

If I would like to have less realistic driving game, I would continue playing NFS or flatout. But because I don't, then... Well.

[DeMS]

a) Work harder. Decent steering wheel costs about that much.
b) Work harder. Decent steering wheel costs about that much.
c) I understood the point, and you can design own system for fraction of the costs of an aftermarket product.
d) Actually, that was a joke. :P



The point is that you don't need telemetry, as you have so much meters and indicators. And I guess no club-racer would need such gadget either. Only reason for telemetry in a racing car is that if it doesn't have enough space in cockpit for meters/indicators/screens.

That's what I was referring to when I was saying that radio/telemetry is not cheap : the advantages it could possibly bring into club racing are quite low compared to the price you had have to pay to get them and have someone to operate the stuff (surely it would be totally useless if there's no one to tell you what's up/what's wrong), thus being unreliable unless, as you stated, you can build your system on your own (that might represent about 1% of actual club racers? :p)

About damage and realism : the more and more accurate, the better.
After some time HUD can even get annoying and distract from the feeling of immersion, so quite everything apart from the represented objects (thinking about car/track/physics) is accessory and unrealistic to anyone who has raced.
But then again, there is lots of people who needs something to grab themselves upon in order to not to get lost the first weeks/months, so plenty of things are useful for them to learn and not getting bored in the process.

+1 for gauges for oil temperature/pressure and water temperature
+1 for more and more realistic damage
+1 for some sort of hardcore mode, both offline and online

+1 for some kind of chat so Gekkibi and tristancliffe can express themselves :p

[Gekkibi]

-1 for removing suspension damage indicators and tyre temperatures. They help to make setups. However, maybe accessable while pitting only. I guess this has been suggested at least about 10^3 times, but let this be 10^3+1.

I drive using suspension damage window, thus I can see if I need repairs after a collision with barriers (Damn those barriers!!). LFS lacks of physical phenomenons in a drivers body (...I wonder why...) Maybe after I can finish my hydraulic platform prototype I can really feel the g-forces (Built one many years ago for a flight simulator. Prototype was damaged due to the fact I only had ball joints in one end of the cylinders. Happened phenomenon "Nurjahdus" (Don't know what it is in English), meaning that my cylinders wasn't so straight after full incline. 400+ euros said "bye bye". I can always learn more and more from mistakes... :) )

[Not Sure]

+1 for more ball joints

[marzman]

I'm rather sure, on the other side, that it's quite hard to find on a cheap fashion:
a) A one-way radio that covers the distances of your typical race track (up to 3km on small ones, a lot more than that on big tracks) on a plain, level terrain.
Some say it's not true. But if it is true, you could inform driver when he passes start/finish. That's a few 100 meters at most on most circuits.
b) A good quality headset that you can put inside your helmet without your ears hurting too much that you can hear something close to human voices from it. Add extra cash if you also want to understand them.I doubt that. Bikers uses these for communication and i don't think the average biker is that much richer then a racer.
c) Some data collecting hardware-software system that is useful enough to tell you something you don't know so people from your pit wall can send some useful information (apart from position, which is something you should already know anyway), which includes another radio-component to send data.Why should you always know your position anyway? If you remove it from the topright it won't always be that clear. Especially in long races where you can't know in what lap all the other racers are.
d) Someone either foolish or dedicated enough to stay on pit wall to look at the data and communicate with you in an understandable fashion, giving relevant bits and pieces of relevant information (go and find that person, it's quite hard without paying or being into a club).
What about a friend or an other racer that has his race later that day? But if the game changes the way you would like it you would have to get out of your car twice in a 3 hour race to change all the tires, fill it with gas and hammer some dents out all by yourself. I hope that day will never come :)

[Kamrock]

Some say it's not true. But if it is true, you could inform driver when he passes start/finish. That's a few 100 meters at most on most circuits.
I doubt that. Bikers uses these for communication and i don't think the average biker is that much richer then a racer.
Why should you always know your position anyway? If you remove it from the topright it won't always be that clear. Especially in long races where you can't know in what lap all the other racers are.

What about a friend or an other racer that has his race later that day? But if the game changes the way you would like it you would have to get out of your car twice in a 3 hour race to change all the tires, fill it with gas and hammer some dents out all by yourself. I hope that day will never come :)

These are all fair enough points, but the point Tristan was getting at (i beleive, having raced Caterhams myself) is most club racers will go so far as even put themselves in debt purely looking after the car. I know there have been several nasty repair bills for my car. The cost to run the caterham for a standard 12 race season was about 6 thousand pounds. Now that was incident free and didn't include actually buying the car, thats just fuel, wear and tear, club membership, league fees, travel and paddock rental. I'm not sure about Tristans' experience, but I would expect it to be similar, so add on to that the cost of the car, any unexpected repair bills, it's not a cheap pass-time. The benefits of the telemetry and radio system, for example, don't come anywhere near the benefits of actually being able to replace a part on the car with a brand new part as opposed to a refurbished bit pinched from a scrapyard...

And with regards to having someone in the pits/on the pitwall waiting for you to come round, yea, you try dragging your missus 800 miles for a weekend where she sits and watches you drive around, fiddle with the car, drive around, fiddle some more, drive around, come off the track. They will only EVER do that once...

[Calvinaquino]

The clutch temp gauge should be removed too, btw. As should the other damage indicators. And tyre temp display (you could argue about making it less detailed or only visible from the pits, though).
110% agreed.

[Ca18Slider]

That's kind of killing the dev's hard work? At least have it enabled during practice.

[mik22]

real cars have engine lights, which caters for overheating and major engine problems, a oil light which tells you about the oil pressure. so why not have those?

in the open wheelers and other race cars they could have more stuff like this because genreally they would be the serious drivers racing cars seriously and would want to care what theyre car is doing

get things right and focus on things that you would see in your road car none of this other shit

[mxpxun]

if u want to remove thous indicators than u should remove mini map too, because its so unrealistic in real car there is no such stuff, unless GPS, but it doesn't show other cars....

[Ca18Slider]

Am I the only person seeing that all these "realism extremist" suggestions are just removing the developers hard work?

Great and all... but come on. Be realistic here. :) I'd like for it to be Shift + F on alot of servers also, but not completely remove the feature! Hell.. while we're at it, why not put us in a 3-D environment and make us pay for virtual tools, and have us order gloves we wear on our hands to manipulate us adjusting the car?

Seriously, come on now... be reasonable guys. :)

[DeMS]

Long post


Completely agreed. Not everyone is actually rich, and reality differs a lot from what people have idealized in their minds.

real cars have engine lights, which caters for overheating and major engine problems, a oil light which tells you about the oil pressure. so why not have those?

in the open wheelers and other race cars they could have more stuff like this because genreally they would be the serious drivers racing cars seriously and would want to care what theyre car is doing

get things right and focus on things that you would see in your road car none of this other shit

Agreed, that's what most people is saying in this thread. You don't have meter or light that shows engine damage, you have (in some cars you even don't have it) a water temperature gauge and an oil temperature gauge, at best, to check if everything is good engine-wise. It's all about what's more realistic AND common, taking into account the cars on LFS originate on late 80-first 90's models.

if u want to remove thous indicators than u should remove mini map too, because its so unrealistic in real car there is no such stuff, unless GPS, but it doesn't show other cars....

You can have a paper-printed copy of the track pasted on your dashboard, but that's not usual for people who takes racing serious. They usually know races by hearth.

However, LFS doesn't feature tracks that are available in real life, so it's a good measure to let newcomers learn, I think. In any way, it's good to have it on offline and on non-competitive game modes (for example, hot lapping).

Am I the only person seeing that all these "realism extremist" suggestions are just removing the developers hard work?

Great and all... but come on. Be realistic here. :) I'd like for it to be Shift + F on alot of servers also, but not completely remove the feature! Hell.. while we're at it, why not put us in a 3-D environment and make us pay for virtual tools, and have us order gloves we wear on our hands to manipulate us adjusting the car?

Seriously, come on now... be reasonable guys. :)

I don't think that making a 'simulator' less realistic is going to help the developer's efforts. Prior to patch Y some mouths were thinking of LFS as 'arcadey' since it did not feature realistic clutching and you could use pedals as if it was another arcade, tire physics permitting.

There is no such thing as 'realism extremists', but rather people tired of seeing how different driving a car is compared to LFS. I mean, my car had some bearing balls broken on one wheel, and I did not have any indicator flashing indicating it was damaged, just a dull sound, and I had to find out where it came from and what was it. Same happened once when one of the small joints of the cooling system went free and had lots of smoke all over the front of the car (okai, it's an old one, that's why it has so much trouble). In real life there's nothing that comes to you flashing in front of your eyes telling you what's going on. Specially not on late 80's, early 90's models (like the one I've got).

So why should they be on a 'simulator'?

Specially when it comes to have a competitive community - leagues and so -, where all those unrealistic aids help people who doesn't know what driving or racing means or actually is to achieve something they would never be able to in real life. Then, it's just not 'simulating' real racing world.

[Ca18Slider]

To the above post, can I just mention something?

Shift + F to eliminate -all- traces.. and a server side setting for it. :) Personally, I like being able to fine-tune by seeing it during track conditions. I can't sit here and spend 24 hours a day honing my car just by feel in the pits. :( Sorry.

[gohfeld23]

On the track (real track that is) you really feel tyre , engine and susp. damage by "feel"...not so much sound or other silly simulated stuff.

When LFS let's me turn my head to listen for engine, exhaust noise or touch the bottom of my dash to check for heat (yes, it works..at least in my track car) or smell the oil burning, then we can talk about removing all simulated gauges.

'Till then.....

[Ian.H]

Am I the only person seeing that all these "realism extremist" suggestions are just removing the developers hard work?

Great and all... but come on. Be realistic here. :) I'd like for it to be Shift + F on alot of servers also, but not completely remove the feature! Hell.. while we're at it, why not put us in a 3-D environment and make us pay for virtual tools, and have us order gloves we wear on our hands to manipulate us adjusting the car?

Seriously, come on now... be reasonable guys. :)

Scawen has already added useless, unrealistic stuff that will need to be removed in the future, such as the silly FPS gauge on the dash because he hasn't bothered to do the real things people want, such as engine temps, oil temps etc.. of which things like an oil pressure gauge will probably replace the sh!tty FPS one.

Gear indicator, FPS gauge, entire F9 menu etc should be removed completely as it's simply nothing but arcade. Personally, I don't think LFS will ever lose all it's arcade features.. Scawen certainly doesn't seem in any hurry to remove them anyway... just adds more to them instead :really:



Regards,

Ian

[DeMS]

To the above post, can I just mention something?

Shift + F to eliminate -all- traces.. and a server side setting for it. :) Personally, I like being able to fine-tune by seeing it during track conditions. I can't sit here and spend 24 hours a day honing my car just by feel in the pits. :( Sorry.

Don't feel sorry :]

I don't see why it should not be an option on single player/practice and a server-side option. Everyone should be able to play the game, but if you're met with people of your same skill level, you might be able to enjoy it double time.

On the track (real track that is) you really feel tyre , engine and susp. damage by "feel"...not so much sound or other silly simulated stuff.

When LFS let's me turn my head to listen for engine, exhaust noise or touch the bottom of my dash to check for heat (yes, it works..at least in my track car) or smell the oil burning, then we can talk about removing all simulated gauges.

'Till then.....

You can turn your head, but sound is stereo.

There are more ways than just one to 'feel' damage - could also be done via FFB -, and visual or auditive feedback are just a couple of them.

Also, most of those failures you're using as example should be spotted via water and oil temperature gauges, which are in plenty a lot of cars and is what we're asking.

About stuff being simulated. It's a simulator. It's not a car you can race. What do you expect?

Remember, just my opinion. Not like I'm gonna bite anyone.

[Kamrock]

Actually I have to say here, apart from Fern Bay I do drive shift+F mode on most servers, I obviously allow flags to be shown (unless I'm watching replays).

I think for league races and such like there should be a server option for it, it would give the serious (observant) drivers and edge, i think, after all, I can see when a tyre is running warm by the smoke in my rear views, as am I always aware of how sluggish/enthusiastic my steering (due to tyre temps) and can tell when the slightest bit of my car gets twisted. Ok, so for the people who can't tell having this info might be good for post-race analysis, I would like to see rather than the live view (at least in the road cars and club-class racers) a pit-bench datalogging system that gives things like G-Force, acceleration and speed. For me (who has spent many hours looking at this sort of data) this would be as useful as a live data reading during a replay.... in fact more useful, because it will show more anomalous results easier... But again maybe this can be kept to league qualifiers or something?