Wrongly Banned!

[Tick]

Was banned from a server today because some hot head moron tried to pass me in the shicane... word to you MORON! learn when to pass and dont ban for your own mistakes.. Its people like you who ruin great games like this! ,,|,,

[Lautsprecher[NOR]]

Yawn!

[XCNuse]

..either way, nothing you can do about it really.. just blow it off, it happens to alot of people every day ;)

[Infiniti]

I was just in that server, erm you were accused of wrecking and the guy was diffently pulling some pretty fast times, were you getting lapped by him? I dunno i didnt vote I didnt see it, i was having my own problems. Looks like the ol' momo pedals need to be replaced :shrug:

[Doorman]

']Yawn!
:D

[felplacerad]

well actually there is something you can do. What server was it? If its a team server you could look up their info on lfsworld and talk directly to them. if you explain and provide a replay of the situation im sure they'll sort it out.

to come out swinging wont help.

[Tick]

I was just in that server, erm you were accused of wrecking and the guy was diffently pulling some pretty fast times, were you getting lapped by him? I dunno i didnt vote I didnt see it, i was having my own problems. Looks like the ol' momo pedals need to be replaced :shrug:

yes he was pulling some fast times and I saw him comming but in the middle of shicane when your already dedicated to the line you cant get out of the way. I ve been playing this game well over a year off and on. Not as fast as some of these guys but i am polite on the track.

Tick

[Gabkicks]

^ welcome to lfs. get used to getting banned if you are not friendly with people. and also sometimes you will get banned unfairly. thats why i only go on servers where i know i can have a decent race.


No need to make a thread about it.:shrug:

[ajp71]

If you were banned or someone had ago at you just because you were in the way when they think they own the track thats a shame :(

There are some very aggresive drivers, who whilst being fast lap cars dangerously, there's no point in getting annoyed with it as they genrally are too big headed to have a conversation with you.

Same goes for the total loosers who pass you under yellow flags and think it's funny :pillepall

[mkinnov8]

Hi Guys!!

Its always such a pleasure to see threads like this!

ITS CHRISTMAS DAY, take a break, blow off some steam, then come bank and think is it worth posting about!

Geez






Merry Christmas LFS Community from all at team at the CRC!

[Jet_ CZE]

hi

that moron was me, and you have been banned rightfully. Do you know, what BLUE FLAG does mean? What did you do? Nothing, and you were blocking track by absolutly slow drive too. I was following n1lyn, back from me was norbi and csimpok and you were in the middle of track many laps back. When you did this second time in one lap, i could not solve this unlike to kick&ban you. And, as you could saw, all of the others had the same opinion. And BTW, I think, that Iam not the person, who is ruining this great game.

have nice day Tick

bye

[mrodgers]

Jet_ CZE, was he 1 lap down to you? Or completely out of the race by shift-S pitting or joining mid race? If he was in the race ready to go a lap down, then he deserves to race his race by all means and let you by easily without getting in your way WHEN YOU MAKE THE ATTEMPT TO PASS!! Blue flag doesn't mean "ah oh, better just give up and pull over". It means the guy behind you is putting you a lap down and you should yield when able to. If the guy is not ready to pass me yet behind me, you better believe I'm not pulling over and quiting to let him by. Everyone needs to understand there are 2 instances where you'd get the blue flag. When you're going a lap down as a warning, then let them by when convienent IF they are caught up to you and make the attempt. The driver recieving the blue flag has the right to race his race. He just needs to let by easily when the faster driver catches him in a convienient place, not the chicane. The other instance is when someone pits out or joins mid race, then they are NOT in the race and should yield completely to all other racers on the track as to not hinder the race.

Lapped cars are a part of racing, they do not need to quit their race because others are faster. If you are too impatient to make a pass in the correct spot when you're faster, then it is you who is the poor racer, not the guy recieving the blue flag!

[Jet_ CZE]

there was much mid-race joiners and i dont know if Tick was among them, but I think so...
btw iam know rules, iam playing lfs more that two years (over 90 000 km)...

[tristancliffe]

Jet_ CZE, was he 1 lap down to you? Or completely out of the race by shift-S pitting or joining mid race? If he was in the race ready to go a lap down, then he deserves to race his race by all means and let you by easily without getting in your way WHEN YOU MAKE THE ATTEMPT TO PASS!! Blue flag doesn't mean "ah oh, better just give up and pull over". It means the guy behind you is putting you a lap down and you should yield when able to. If the guy is not ready to pass me yet behind me, you better believe I'm not pulling over and quiting to let him by. Everyone needs to understand there are 2 instances where you'd get the blue flag. When you're going a lap down as a warning, then let them by when convienent IF they are caught up to you and make the attempt. The driver recieving the blue flag has the right to race his race. He just needs to let by easily when the faster driver catches him in a convienient place, not the chicane. The other instance is when someone pits out or joins mid race, then they are NOT in the race and should yield completely to all other racers on the track as to not hinder the race.

Lapped cars are a part of racing, they do not need to quit their race because others are faster. If you are too impatient to make a pass in the correct spot when you're faster, then it is you who is the poor racer, not the guy recieving the blue flag!

Agreed 100% But sometimes there is no safe place to pass some people (different lines each lap, swerving, brakes too early, braking too late etc). Those people are the dangerous ones, because as the lapper it's hard to predict with any certainty where the lappee will be. Makes safe passing kind of hard in those circumstances.

[ajp71]

there was much mid-race joiners and i dont know if Tick was among them, but I think so...
btw iam know rules, iam playing lfs more that two years (over 90 000 km)...

Without commenting on the incident (I don't know what happened) I'd just like to say that is no defence, it does not make you a good/bad/slow/fast racer.

[Hyperactive]

The worst situation is when you are trying to lap someone and he is driving in the middle of the road and a turn is ahead. Pass inside? Nah, he doesn't have mirrors. Pass outside? Nah, he may overshoot the turn. Follow him? Nah, he may brake to let you pass "easier".

The most scary parts are when some laps-behind-guy decides to try a pass after first letting you by.

I am really starting to believe that some people don't actually know what blue flag means. And guess they think it's ok to try to pass someone who is laps ahead you... :shrug:

But a kick/ban is right if the person doesn't want to understand the "law of blue flag" ;)

Any chance of replay? :D

[SamH]

One thing that doesn't seem to be in dispute is that the attempt to overtake was in the chicane. This being the case, I think that the fact that the manoevre went bad should be absolutely no surprise to anybody.

What I don't understand is how this therefore warrants a ban. Regardless of the particular circumstances surrounding the blue flag, it's clear that Tick was not a wrecker by intention. If anything, his hand was forced by a driver who, claiming extensive experience - 2yrs in the making, certainly should have known better to attempt that manoevre in the first instance.

Banning drivers is a practice that I think is far too prevailent on servers. I see it a lot (I spectate most of the time that I'm not racing) and rarely see it put to good use. In my experience, it's mostly vengeance in the heat of the moment, during an intense race.

Bans should be for wreckers only.. and malicious wreckers who are repeat offenders at that. Revenge banning is unacceptable, and it seems clear to me that this was a revenge ban, since Jet_CZE concedes that he doesn't even know the ACTUAL circumstances of the blue flag he uses to base his ban on.

MPR, anyone?

[Hyperactive]

[not my business]He is banned and that's it I guess. Which sounds ok to me as Jet mentiened him doing it more than once. And by constantly ignoring the blue flag can be seen as lack of understanding the very basic rules. And if he was told about it earlier and he kept it going...

Passing in that chicane IS ok if the other driver is driving slower than one would expect, specially if the other is many laps behind. Driving slower is generally understood as a sign to pass, so driving slow and shutting the door is = wrecking. In my humble opinion, of course. And without seeing the "evidence video".[/not my business]

And of course this whole thing shouldn't be solved here. If the server admins have seen it happen (replay) and approve the ban, there is no talk to make it otherwise.

I guess this thread needs one too: :)

EDIT: hmm, what!?

[bbman]

From what I've heard, I also don't think a ban was justified... Blue flag just means that IF there's a safe place to let the faster car pass, you'll have to do it... But when the lappee doesn't think that there's a safe spot, then you'll just have to wait, that can happen in racing... :shrug:

Jet_CZE: In the whole 2 years of racing LfS, you've never learned that forcing a pass at all costs isn't a good idea? :really:

[STROBE]

I'd say it's impossible to call on this one without seeing a replay.

On the one hand, Tick may have been persistently and repeatedly holding his line and refusing to yield under a blue flag. Unless he was involved in a close battle for position with someone, I don't think there's much excuse for this - it costs barely any time just to ease off the throttle ever so slightly towards the end of a straight and let the higher placed car through - and often is beneficial to the blue flagged guy as he could then pick up the draft for the next straight or two (but without sailing past, obviously). Such blinkered, blue-flag ignoring driving can leave the higher placed guy with little choice other than forcing his way past, with contact if necessary, if he's any chance of defending his position or challenging for the next place.

On the other hand, Jet CZE could have been excessively aggressive, and when faced with a driver that doesn't immediately dive out of his way begins to get infuriated and panics by making silly lunging maneoveurs in impossible passing places - like a chicane. There are certainly some drivers who think that because they can run a second faster than everyone else on the server, anyone not competing for track position should simply melt into the scenery at the mere sight of them in their mirrors.

But without the replay, who knows? :shrug:

[micha1980de]

much better happened to me half an hour ago...
oval, 7 restarts, then nice times, drove to first, well distributed race, and then, tracks empty...
All in their boxes, for repairs. (all after another, within 2-4 mins i guess)
(so i took advantage for fuelling down, had too much at start), left for the ride home.
Waited for some fzr (wich isn't a thread as f08) to give windshadow, was hit by som other f08, but wasn't hit very hard, could ride on.
Then i was kick&banned for using a slot wich had to be freed just in that minute for some other racer wich (i guess) had chatted with the host from outside the race (possible?).

so much for fair driving, behavior in generall.:arge:

[mrodgers]

Agreed 100% But sometimes there is no safe place to pass some people (different lines each lap, swerving, brakes too early, braking too late etc).
Well, what I'm trying to say and what I always try to say in these threads about the blue flag is - it is up to both drivers to pass the blue flag status responsibly. There is always a "safe" place to pass under a blue flag, any straight and there are many many straights at all tracks. It is up to the one giving the blue flag to make a pass, not expect the other to get out of his way. That's what I'm trying to convey as so many people think "Blue flag you idiot, get out of my way!" That's not what the blue flag is, but it is what many think it is. Once the lead car starts to make the pass, then it is up to the lapped (or soon to be) car to allow the pass without racing the passer. It seems to me that too many racers think that if they have an orange dot just ahead on the map, that the orange dot is slower and recieving the blue flag therefore should get out of the way.

Here is an example of a blue flag that could happen - I may be the fastest on the track and start in the back. On lap 2 I realize I don't have enough fuel, so I pit for fuel. I pull out and maybe get tapped after a few corners by someone or push the front end out on a tight turn loosing a bit of time. By now, the leaders are closing in on me. I recieve a blue flag. What does the leader think seeing an orange dot on the map just ahead? Slow car, blue flag and too many times get the hell out of my way, I'm coming. This is not the case, remember, I said I am the fastest guy out on the track. (Ok, so it's only hypothetical, I'm never the fastest.) So, I now see the blue flag and watch my mirrors. Guess what, no car back there in view. A few corners and I start seeing the blue flag disappear on the straights. A lap later, I have pulled away from the blue flag. For months now since we've had the blue flag in LFS this topic has come up from people complaining about others not heeding the blue flag. It seems to me folks relate "blue flag" to "noob" or "slow" therefore "blue flag" is interpreted into "get out of the way".

Me, if I'm being blue flagged depending on where at on the track, I will hold my line the way I should and have the right to. If you enter my mirror because you are faster than me, then pass me, you are faster. When I see you make a move to pass, I'll brake early, lift, keep wide in the next corner, whatever it takes to allow you to pass me with minimal interferance, yet without me tossing in the towel and stopping, pulling off, or whatever you want me to do to "get out of your way". Occasionally, on an especially long straight, I may pull off the line, hit the turn signal maybe to show the guy behind my intention, and let them by that way. In reality, you (the leader) can use the blue flag to your advantage against your 2nd place opponent. Keep 2nd place behind you as you gain on and plan where you're going to pass the blue flag. Plan it in an area where you can get by clean and gain momentum on 2nd place by the area being where 2nd place can't follow through behind as easily.

If you just expect the flagged car in front of you to "get out of your way" without attempting to actually making a pass, then to the flagged car, so be it. If he doesn't make the attempt, then I say he doesn't want to get around you. There's no room for bullying on the racetrack.

Sorry for the rant and I hope I make sense to someone. I get tired of the "blue flag, get out of my way" mentallity. There has been plenty of times I've driven around for several laps with the blue flag and never saw anyone enter in view of my mirrors. On the other hand, I've also sat behind someone else who I gave the blue flag to for several laps without ever gaining on them. I DO NOT want that guy ahead of me stopping, pulling over or getting "out of my way" and ruining his race because I'm blue flagging him. He has every right to be racing on the track and if I can't catch him to pass, then that's racing. If I do catch him and show the intent to pass, then I do expect for him to allow me to pass and will leave him room as well to carry on with his driving.

[TaiFong]

If I get blue flagged, I usually stick my middle finger in the air and start weaving around the track like an asshole while spewing profanity. Even though no one can see my middle finger or hear my caustic curses, it makes me feel like a real man inside.



Don't mind me...

[TagForce]

If I get blue flagged, I usually stick my middle finger in the air and start weaving around the track like an asshole while spewing profanity. Even though no one can see my middle finger or hear my caustic curses, it makes me feel like a real man inside.



Don't mind me...

You should bind F1 to the message "..i.,"... That way they can see your middle finger ;)

[Tick]

hi

Do you know, what BLUE FLAG does mean? What did you do? Nothing, and you were blocking track by absolutly slow drive too. I was following n1lyn, back from me was norbi and csimpok and you were in the middle of track many laps back. When you did this second time in one lap, i could not solve this unlike to kick&ban you. And, as you could saw, all of the others had the same opinion. And BTW, I think, that Iam not the person, who is ruining this great game.

have nice day Tick

bye

Yes I know what a blue flag means and many times during our 10 different races did I yeild to faster cars, Indeed I was slower than the front of the pack! Out of 15-20 cars I was not the slowest. I drove a clean line and was very polite to all racers fast or slow.

No one warned me about blue flags before during the race because I always yeilded. I dont have a replay didnt think to get one(I will in the future) Obvisouly I dont have the miles you do ( i work 60 hours a week
;-) )


And you have a nice day, I know you wont lose sleep over this nor will I!

Tick

[LRB_Aly]

Well i also didn't saw the replay.
But imo if i don't know the guy that i'm trying to overlap i don't try to ban him directly. If he is blocking i send him a message (over the message shortcuts) to let me pass. I just looked at Ticks online racer stats and he only drove 694km until now. So he lacks a little bit of experience. I suppose it was a public race so i would have drove the race and after the race i would have talked to him, pointing out his error so that he could learn something out of it.
I would'nt have ban him right away. I understand that if poeple like Jet_CZE, n1lyn and norbi and etc... are driving against each other no one would like to loose. But hey it's no league race so there is nothing to gain or loose. For wreckers it's another thing, they destroy the fun, but for poeple that are new, banning them doesn't help. They don't learn by getting banned.

We all were newbies sometimes so don't be so harsh on the new drivers.

As i said, didn't saw a replay of this race and i don't want to offend someone. It's just a general opinion from me and not specificaly related to this incident.

[StanleyCarter]

If I get blue flagged, I usually stick my middle finger in the air and start weaving around the track like an asshole while spewing profanity. Even though no one can see my middle finger or hear my caustic curses, it makes me feel like a real man inside.



Don't mind me...

haha I do that sometimes, except the finger waving part. :shy:

it helps me cooling down, firing it up in a server is pretty pointless for me, if I'm really pissed, I'd just leave the server (with a few curses maybe lol) and shut off LFS and do something else. When I felt better, I'll just come back again. :D

[Doorman]

Well, what I'm trying to say and what I always try to say in these threads about the blue flag is............etc.

What the hell are you doing talking sense here?

[ajp71]

I haven't seen the replay and don't know how clean either of you are as racers but my view is Jet_CZE has to take the blame for trying to pass a car in the chicane, particuarly a slower car which he knew would not give his position up :pillepall

However annoyed you are you've got to be a total dickhead to lap a car in the chicane, especially one that is being driven badly.

Let me explain the blue flag rule a bit better, unless the slower car actually cuts up the lapping car it is the passing cars responsibility if an attempt to lap results in contact. A slower car has every right to plant their car in the middle of the road to tell you your not going past this turn, if they do this you must back off, trying to pass a car like this is just going to end in the wall, if you look at the best drivers IRL when they end up in extremely mixed grids (this can mean cars GTR speeds mixing with Austin 7s) they respect the slower drivers, in a grid this mixed you are likely not to be able to drive fast laps, the smoothest and fastest drivers IRL do not get aggresive with slower cars.

If any faster drivers are asking how they are aggresive, it's mostly expressed in pointless lunges, refusal to except when a driver makes it clear he doesn't want to let you through and the use of the horn (which IMO should be removed, it just aggrovates the situation, I've since deleted it from my sound folder, but I think it could be linked to aggrovating a large number of these incidents)

In LFS to many fast drivers think they are great just because they can lap faster than others, yet these people are bloody dangerous, don't think twice in forcing you off the road and some will even completely ignore yellow flags. IMO repeated aggresive overtaking under yellow flags should result in a kick/ban but the majority of this sort of blue flag crap shouldn't happen.

I'm not defending every slower driver, some are at fault, and I'm not completely clean myself, I did pick a fight with Tristan once and haven't gone back to Fern Green since, at least we were rational enough to stop before we started banning each other.

[jtr99]

MRodgers, AJP, you both make some excellent points and I agree with both of you.

In my opinion a lot of these blue flag disputes arise because the two people involved have a different conception of the responsibilities that fall to a driver who sees a blue flag.

I'd like to ask Jet_CZE what he would have done if the roles were reversed. Presumably he wouldn't have parked his car at the side of the chicane, but rather driven through that section of the track without delay and then allowed the other driver to pass at the next reasonable opportunity, i.e., on the following straight. (Perhaps by moving over or lifting, or perhaps no action at all would be needed.)

Certainly if you've joined a race halfway through, you have no reasonable prospect of a good result, and therefore if the leaders are coming up on you, I think it's only polite thing to take drastic steps such as pulling right off the track.

On the other hand, if I am about to get lapped by a faster driver in the normal way, I owe the guy all reasonable care to allow him to make a safe pass. But this doesn't extend to magically making my car disappear mid-chicane.

[Tick]

I would like to thank all of you for looking at this objectively.



Jet..I don't race a lot and I race clean. I hate wreckers and cheaters. I have completed the tutorials a few months back. I own a lot of sims but this one is the best. You are good and I have a long way to go. My problem is setups. the one you made and posted on team INFERNO i tried out today. Nice setup no wonder you run up front, I should finish top 10 for once.

Its all good, Thanks


Tick

[Fonnybone]

I would like to thank all of you for looking at this objectively.



Jet..I don't race a lot and I race clean. I hate wreckers and cheaters. I have completed the tutorials a few months back. I own a lot of sims but this one is the best. You are good and I have a long way to go. My problem is setups. the one you made and posted on team INFERNO i tried out today. Nice setup no wonder you run up front, I should finish top 10 for once.

Its all good, Thanks


Tick

Mmmm, strong within you, the force is, my son :spyoda:



Translation: That's a great attitude.

[Vendetta]

This thread generated so much negative attitude, on christmas! Why didnt the mods close it sooner :(

[Jet_ CZE]

ok, sorry for that ban Tick, there were a lot of wreckers and ignorants on that server that night and they ruined me a lot of good races... when I met you my patience was depleted and i chose ban... others deserved it much more...
good luck with my setups!
have nice day
bye

[replay (http://www.jet.ic.cz/other/as3_gtrs_elit.mpr) from that nice racing evening (not from that incident)]

[ajp71]

This thread generated so much negative attitude, on christmas! Why didnt the mods close it sooner :(

No not really if you actually read the thread rather than moaning about it you'd find there has been intelegent discusion and they've sorted it out in a civilised manner :shrug:

[Gabkicks]

he was probably just being lazy and skimmed over it.:tilt: bad egg nog.

[mrodgers]

Tick, one more thing about the ban that I don't thing anyone has mentioned surprisingly as it always is in these threads. You're racing on the demo and there is no way to ban permanantly on demo. Vote bans only last 12 hours in both demo and S2. Admins in S2 can ban for a long time, but vote bans are only 12 hours there as well. So, really, no harm done, you'd only be banned for the rest of the night from that server. The next night you are back in business running in that server you were banned in. Just thought I'd mention this since you're fairly new.

Happy Racing!

[Doorman]

That's a nice note on which to finish. :D

[micha1980de]

"...and some will even completely ignore yellow flags. IMO repeated aggresive overtaking under yellow flags should result in a kick/ban..."


well to be honest i've never seen any public race at wich yellow flag was respected in a way that drivers didn't overtake others.
mostly these yellow flags where due to crashes alone or caused by another car.

maybee i'm completely wrong and one of these "bloody dangerous" people, but i don't feel any pitty for anyone playing "rotor" with his/her car, if it's his/her OWN fault, so i just pass 'em IF the situation is clear AND i can project and follow my trajectory safely.
otherwise i lift the gas, or brake...

mostly i'm trying to avoid ANY means ALL damage to my car (except tyres) cause i don't like to race an "un-straight" car.

so far so good i think.

/off topic/
EY, i wan't my soul back, fuzz...
/ebd transmission/

brrtst

[Doorman]

:shrug:

[Vain]

maybee i'm completely wrong and one of these "bloody dangerous" people, but i don't feel any pitty for anyone playing "rotor" with his/her car, if it's his/her OWN fault, so i just pass 'em IF the situation is clear AND i can project and follow my trajectory safely.
otherwise i lift the gas, or brake...I think you misunderstood that part. You're not supposed to wait until the wrecked car returns on the street. You should just lift the gas and expect somthing in your race-line so you can evade.
Those "bloody-dangerous" people are those who see the yellow flag, think "go out of my way" and drive through the wreckage at full speed, with no possibility to evade only 10cm to either side because they'd spin themselves. And that is the majority on the public servers. This causes a lot of follow-up crashes.
I often enough have problems to force myself to brake and drive the corner with propably wrecked cars in mind. That is mostly due to a lot of false yellow flags. Often I see someone drift through a corner and LFS shows me the yellow flag. Then I ignore it of course. But this makes it hard to take yellow flags really serious. You see the yellow flag and think "well, propably just an unlucky drift", drive on and end up in a hugh pile of wrecked cars.

Vain

[ajp71]

Just like in reality a yellow flag should mean stop overtaking and entering a corner slightly slower than racing speed, so you will be able to avoid a car parked on the racing line.

There are obvious times when you have to slow down (not stop as that is just more dangerous) like when the track is clearly blocked or when your going over a blind crest side by side with another car.

What really got me annoyed was a public GTR race on As Historic, several laps in and yellow flags and clearly multiple cars all over the track on a very fast bit, the cars ahead of me did the only sensible thing and stopped racing and slowed down to pick there way through the wreck, then some twat comes past flat out overtaking me and another car before hitting the third out the race.

[dontsimon]

I do like the word twat. :) You don't hear it enough in my opinion.

[FPVaaron]

Was banned from a server today because some hot head moron tried to pass me in the shicane... word to you MORON! learn when to pass and dont ban for your own mistakes.. Its people like you who ruin great games like this! ,,|,,
Bwarrrrraahhhaaaa