Round 1: Post-Race Discussion [Archive]

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 00:21

Enjoyed our first race, but was gutted when the leader took us out on the straight whilst lapping us. A DT for him and an extra pitstop to repair the damage for us was hardly justice.

A note on this...

I reviewed the replay, and watching from the heli view it seemed that once side by side, both cars (#06 and #15) basically drifted toward each other. However, the natural inclination at that point on the straight is to drift to the right to meet the "apex" of the straight (where it bends just after the overpass). Furthermore, #15 should never have been that close to the #06 while lapping. While this wasn't really overaggressive driving (I'd call it more brain fade than anything else), in conjunction with an earlier incident with the #13 car I felt the #15 deserved a DT.

Had the move on the #06 been overly aggressive or intentional looking, I would have gone with a SG.

Scott_Michaels

24th February 2008, 00:29

I enjoyed the nearly 2 hours I drove. It became obvious at that point that my team mate wasn't going to make it so I quit at that point, because in LFS hardly anyone retires so I was unlikely to gain more than one point for driving another hour, and my heart really wasn't in it at that point. Still, I was running solid 12th for most of the 2nd hour so I'm very happy that my performance is up to scratch with this league, even if I have a long way to go before I can be challenging for podiums.

I must say that while most of the drivers seemed extremely good (at least in comparison to the test race), a couple of people still made some idiot moves. One guy just ran straight into the back of me at the end of the back straight under yellow flags, which ended up costing me 25 seconds as I had to go into the wall to avoid T-boning the spun car (who decided to reverse infront of me, DONT MAKE YOURSELF A MOVING TARGET!!!). Another car ran me straight off the edge of the track after I'd backed off early to allow him to lap me. Both (amoungst others) incidents I wouldn't expect from such a talented field. Still, much much better than the test race so kudos to everyone for their restraint this time ;)

Cya at Kyoto :D

BreadC

24th February 2008, 00:31

srdsprinter

24th February 2008, 00:31

Drive with Some Sense under caution! Under Safety Car, why was there a spin in front of us, then to get ploughed into the back of = Unneccesary. :(

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 00:37

lol so its my fault that blue flag drivers dont slow down they try to race me down the straight?? right....

blue flag is a joke so many people do not give way.. the expect YOU to go around them.. thats not how it works

The blue flagged driver's responsibility is to hold his line and not try to block a lapping car. Blue flagged cars are NOT required to slow down for you on straights, nor to give you any special openings.

Rules H2 and H2.2:

2) When being overtaken, a driver must give reasonable space to the attacking car in order to account for lag. Drivers must not defend by erratically weaving or otherwise excessively deviating from the standard racing line.

2.2) When being lapped, a driver is expected to drive a normal racing line and avoid erratic movements that may confuse lapping drivers. If a driver wishes to pull over and slow to let the leader pass, this should be done on a long straight and done in such a manner that the intent is clear to the lapping driver. Under no circumstances should a driver being lapped slow excessively while entering or in the middle of a corner.

You must use sense when overtaking a lapped car. Turning left on the straight and cutting off a lapped car is not using sense. There was no reason to be so close to him. You had another 10m to the right that you could have used.

edit: This is not to say that there were not instances of blue flagged cars blocking lapping cars during this race, because there were indeed many. This issue will be addressed. All I'm saying is that in this case you were in the wrong.

BenjiMC

24th February 2008, 00:39

lol so its my fault that blue flag drivers dont slow down they try to race me down the straight?? right....

blue flag is a joke so many people do not give way.. the expect YOU to go around them.. thats not how it works

Blue flag doesn't mean "MOVE!". Blue flag means make yourself predictable and easy to pass. It's not the job of the lapped car to move out of the way, But they shouldn't defend. Driving flat out down the straight isn't defending as you would have the line into the corner and there would be not defence from them there.

Anyway, the lapped cars did tend to fight quite often in this race so expect something about that and also you guys did win so theres nothing to complain about.

Full race replay is now uploaded.

http://files.filefront.com/BL1+race+4H+6R+22Fmpr/;9690863;/fileinfo.html

The Moose

24th February 2008, 00:45

blue flag is a joke so many people do not give way.. the expect YOU to go around them.. thats not how it works

That's exactly how blue flags work.

srdsprinter

24th February 2008, 00:51

I hope we can really look at the behavior under safety car, and nip the uncalled for stuff in the "Bud" for once and for all.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 00:55

"Bud," Stu, and yes, we hope to.

BreadC

24th February 2008, 00:57

That's exactly how blue flags work.

thats why people were getting blocked for 1 lap and 2 laps at a time... because they were just not obeying the blue flag

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 01:03

thats why people were getting blocked for 1 lap and 2 laps at a time... because they were just not obeying the blue flag

Again, "blocked" is a term that is sometimes misused.

A lapped car driving its line is not blocking you. A lapped car moving off its line to keep you behind IS blocking you.

And again, there was some legitimate blocking going on. But there was also a lot of erroneous reporting of blocking. It's human nature to want to get ahead as quickly as possible, but sometimes you have to cool your jets for a few laps and figure out the best place to pass. Can't always force it.

dawesdust_12

24th February 2008, 01:03

It's the lapping drivers responsibility to pass a lapped car. The lapped car is encouraged but not forced to give way in a "roll over and die" fashion.

SamH

24th February 2008, 01:31

Ahh that old "BLUE FLAG MOVE GET OUT OF MY WAY MY ROAD MY TRACK GET LOST IM BETTERER THAN YOU!!!111" coconut, eh? Gotta love it! :D I'm surprised how many people still don't get that rule!

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 02:15

Can I get someone to run the stats on the full race replay?

Thanks!

audimasta

24th February 2008, 02:39

Had a good first hour stint, with lots of nice fair driving. Didn't experience any bad behavior as i can remember :) Hope this continues through the next rounds! Gratz to CD with the win, and to AR with a great 3rd place :D

Kirill.D

24th February 2008, 03:19

The first thing that comes to my mind is : All our dreams about IGTC are probably destroyed.
We had practiced a lot, whole week was busy, day before and couple of hours before. All was perfect and we were waiting for race, but then it started. About hour or 1.5 before race it happened, first of all, i started to have network connections. 2nd driver (U.Tiirik) was terrorized by FPS freezes (that never happened before) and 3rd driver (R.Ziugand) was with same problem as i - network.
We started race in fear, start was pretty good, i was fast enough to make some overtakes etc and then POOF - connection lost. U.Tiirik got in and tryed to race with FPS problem - 10 laps and he told that it's impossible. So we sent 3rd driver, he drove out of pits and connection lost.

I'm in really really bad mood at this point - we had high expectations about Round 1 and hoped that we get in to IGTC, but now... yeh... it is like it is :(

Most dissapointing, is that im sitting behind PC about 3 hours now and no network problems :( :(.

It's like someone told about our situation : "S*itty things happens always when you dont need 'em."

Gratz to the winners :).

Best Regards,
c4Racing, Kirill.D.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 04:10

Don't worry about it, Kirill. Things could very well be much better for you in Round 2. :)

burnsy1882

24th February 2008, 05:12

here you go. was a bit bored, and was bummed that FG had to pull out of IGTC.

http://burnsy.no-ip.info/IGTC_R1_stats.zip

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 05:44

Thanks much, Burnsy.

R.Kolz

24th February 2008, 06:26

From the friendly after race chat of round 1 IGTC:

04 K.O'Keefe:04 T.Jessen - Sorry to you and Kolz. Race was my fault.
IGTC B.Keough:And to 3id and Adaptive for the podium.
IGTC B.Crooks:indeed
IGTC S.Franke:lol
03 T.Liigmann:thnx
IGTC S.Franke:Kolz
14 D.Williams:bah
IGTC S.Franke:leg.end.

With this kind of comments you in my oppinion are not worth beeing an IGTC admin and should be excluded. You really have a hard time to keep your mouth shut, haven´t you? All I have to say to you.

Lotesdelere

24th February 2008, 07:28

The blue flagged driver's responsibility is to hold his line and not try to block a lapping car. Blue flagged cars are NOT required to slow down for you on straights, nor to give you any special openings.
Blue flag doesn't mean "MOVE!". Blue flag means make yourself predictable and easy to pass. It's not the job of the lapped car to move out of the way, But they shouldn't defend.
I can't find anything saying that in the IGTC rules.

In fact there is not only one blue flag which rules for every series.
In some series, the blue flag is not mandatory - drivers obey it only as a courtesy to their fellow racers. In other series, drivers get severely penalized for not yielding or interfering with the leaders, including getting sent to the pits for the rest of the race.
How can we guess which one IGTC is using ?

However, watching at the replays, I've seen some drivers who were 5 or 6 laps down, and who were not having a close fight for position at the moment, fighting with the leaders for 3 or 4 laps while being under blue flag.
This is just stupid and useless to me.

You need to clarify the blue flag rule you want to use in IGTC as soon as possible.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 07:30

I already quoted the relevant rule here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=719239#post719239).

However, I will clarify it further if you really think it's necessary.

danowat

24th February 2008, 07:44

I think most drivers understand the blue flag rule, although a few do think it means get out the way.

We did see many, many people under blue flag, clearly defending the racing line, and clearly not moving off the racing line when they had plenty of scope to do so.

Lotesdelere

24th February 2008, 07:49

However, I will clarify it further if you really think it's necessary.
I believe it is.

When some drivers who are laps down are making the leaders to lose one or more second per lap during several laps it IS a problem.
We know from the previous season that even after four hours of racing it's often a matter of few seconds between the teams on the podium.

Not to mention that it's an opened gate to some abuse.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 07:56

Alright, we'll take a revision under consideration in advance of Round 2.

Thanks.

dawesdust_12

24th February 2008, 08:10

I know while I was doing my stint as race manager, there were several driver that were holding lapped cars up quite extensively, for obscene lengths of time too. It does need to be looked at, even if we're gonna be at the other end of it as a team.

r4ptor

24th February 2008, 10:22

I believe it is.

+1

And I'm sure SO would make it virtually impossible to make a clean pass (unless you don't have a car fighting for position up ur bum, in which case a planned pass could be possible, depending on how well the driver negotiates a turn.. and then makes the actual pass during one of the only two true safe places to pass). FE is also an great example where a driver can be 2 or even more seconds slower, but still prevent you from passing, just by being more or less on the line - unless the lapping driver turns aggressive and dives etc. - but surely, we don't want anything like that :o

srdsprinter

24th February 2008, 13:07

Again, "blocked" is a term that is sometimes misused.

A lapped car driving its line is not blocking you. A lapped car moving off its line to keep you behind IS blocking you.

And again, there was some legitimate blocking going on. But there was also a lot of erroneous reporting of blocking. It's human nature to want to get ahead as quickly as possible, but sometimes you have to cool your jets for a few laps and figure out the best place to pass. Can't always force it.

I think this is very important. From what I could see, it seems like leaders getting frustrated that people racing were disrupting their hotlapping.

More often than not it was the cars getting lapped that were racing for position, rather than the lapping cars getting "stuck" racing for position behind a lapped car.

If you are faster, get a run, take the inside, the lapped driver will yield. I saw very clean predictable driving from most everyone out there yesterday. (disregard this for the attrocities under the SC). With the amount of talent and competitiveness across the entire IGTC field this year, you cannot expect people to pull over when you are half a straightaway behind. :shrug:

BreadC

24th February 2008, 13:37

1st instance was i was 2 sec ahead of 2nd...

i was held up by backmarker for 3 corners... then by next corner i was almost overtaken..

Dimitry Gerards

24th February 2008, 13:45

Yeah this really needs to be looked at... I was stuck behind blue flagged drivers for several laps on different occasions, first with M Telling and later V. Gruppelaar. According to the current rules they probably did nothing wrong and weren't deliberately blocking me, but they were holding me up and I didnt want to make a risky overtaking manouvre on a lapped car!
How much trouble is it for a lapped driver to check their mirrors before the end of the backstretch or main stretch and when they see a faster driver on the inside line behind them and are blue flagged to lift the throttle, brake a little earlier and let the faster driver overtake on the inside? This is very easily done and doesn't cost much time.

There should be some rule that a blue flagged driver needs to make room if they are getting the blue flag for more then 1 lap. Some of the "slower" teams were running with a low downforce set enabling them to reach high top speeds on the straights... it's very difficult for the faster, but more downforce, car behind to make a pass unless they take a lot of risk through the corners.

SamH

24th February 2008, 14:46

1st instance was i was 2 sec ahead of 2nd...

i was held up by backmarker for 3 corners... then by next corner i was almost overtaken..
I don't understand why you think there is a problem with this? It's a thing called racing! You come up to lap cars and you lose time in the process. If you lose more time than the person behind you, it's that magic word again.. "racing".

It's like people want online racing to be some clinical, systematic process of individual time trials. They resent things that interfere with that process.. like "wind" and "other racers". It's a mentality that I find rather irritating, and I'm having difficulty resisting the temptation to mock in a dreadfully patronizing way. This is LFS - MULTIplayer. For crying out loud, get this thing sorted out in your head, please! :shrug:

audimasta

24th February 2008, 14:52

birder

24th February 2008, 15:24

I don't understand why you think there is a problem with this? It's a thing called racing! You come up to lap cars and you lose time in the process. If you lose more time than the person behind you, it's that magic word again.. "racing".

It's like people want online racing to be some clinical, systematic process of individual time trials. They resent things that interfere with that process.. like "wind" and "other racers". It's a mentality that I find rather irritating, and I'm having difficulty resisting the temptation to mock in a dreadfully patronizing way. This is LFS - MULTIplayer. For crying out loud, get this thing sorted out in your head, please! :shrug:

I am not sure if you mind me posting here guys but as leader of the ConeDodgers i feel it would be useful to put a point across.

SamH i fully understand what you say but the difference in skill levels in this series is huge and its clear that racers have different views on what a "Blue Flag" means and its not a sprint where it may happen but 4 hours where it will many many times.

As LFS puts up a huge "Blue Flag" message that only appears when the person is being lapped so this should be the trigger to the rules.

As it is the rules in the IGTC are not what is normal for the blue flag.

Some think that the blue flag means "stop within 50 mtrs and let me pass" others think it means "sod off, i am in front so pass me if you can"

Maybe the IGTC should open up a discussion in this forum to get some agreement on what the blue flag means and what exact action drivers should take.

It should also cover what happens when a disconnect happens as you could clearly have a driver thats in the lead of the race but is getting a blue flag from every car.

Maybe i can open the discussion with this:

When a driver gets a blue flag, they are to comply as soon as they safely can. This means a person who gets a blue flag is not expected to slow down and let the other pass in a corner, but when the first straight is available.

There should also be a map of each track showing the area of the track that are counted as straights.

danowat

24th February 2008, 15:32

Agreed, FIA flag rules state "During the race :

- The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity."

IMO, this means the driver shouldnt race the driver doing the lapping, and should move off the racing line as soon as the oppurtunity arises.

However, it is down to the IGTC admins to decide what the blue flag actually means in IGTC, because ATM the rules are a bit wooley in that area, and open to interptritation.

The Moose

24th February 2008, 15:46

and should move off the racing line as soon as the oppurtunity arises.

That is surely completely wrong.

You shouldn't move off line, you should hold your line and let the the overtaking car past at the earliest safe opportunity. (preferably on a straight or the approach to a corner)

You don't have to pull offline, or let them pass mid corner.

The overtaking cars doesn't automatically have the right to drive at hotlapping speed and line when he's passing a blue flagger.(which some people here seem to think is the case. I wonder how much racing some people actually watch?)

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the rules as IGTC have them at the moment.

Obviously the person being lapped shouldn't race the guy overtaking him, and should do his best not to hold anyone up when they are lapping, but this doesn't mean he has to yield where its unsafe to do so. It's the lappers responsibility to execute the overtake in a safe manner.

Gil07

24th February 2008, 15:52

Yeah this really needs to be looked at... I was stuck behind blue flagged drivers for several laps on different occasions, first with M Telling and later V. Gruppelaar.

I think you might be confused there. IIRC I was actually pulling away from you, so if you aren't actually faster, there is no reason for me to let you through only to be stuck behind you.

I have just checked the replay now, and I held my line at all times, just like the rules state. The only time you actually did a passing manouver, I let you through. Shame you took that turn so slowly that I still tapped your rear, making me lose time.
You got stuck behind me because you were slower :) Then I let the leader through (he actually tried to lap me, unlike you), that made me lose time, so you came too close, and did your first attempt at passing me and went through because I didn't defend. So there you are. ;)

Edit: comment to the above, the best way to let a lapping driver through is give them some draft on a straight, brake late for the turn and go wide, letting the lapping car through on the inside. Works great, and neither of the cars lose time (lapping car actually gains draft, what more can you want ffs :D)

SamH

24th February 2008, 16:12

SamH i fully understand what you say but the difference in skill levels in this series is huge and its clear that racers have different views on what a "Blue Flag" means and its not a sprint where it may happen but 4 hours where it will many many times.

As LFS puts up a huge "Blue Flag" message that only appears when the person is being lapped so this should be the trigger to the rules.

As it is the rules in the IGTC are not what is normal for the blue flag.
[..]
When a driver gets a blue flag, they are to comply as soon as they safely can. This means a person who gets a blue flag is not expected to slow down and let the other pass in a corner, but when the first straight is available.

The IGTC approach to blue flags is pretty common in competitive racing, and most notably very much in keeping with the FIA regulations.

"Earliest opportunity". Last night, our interpretation was that, when we were competing for position with cars behind us, we were not going to let those cars through in order to let a lapping car, 2 cars further back, get their way through. We regard our 18th position as no less of an entitlement to us than the lapping car's 6th or 7th position to him. We may have held up blue flaggers during the race last night as a result of such a situation as described here, but frankly an "early opportunity" did not present itself. In strict interpretation of the rules, though we may have held up blue flagging cars, we did so entirely within the constraints of the FIA and IGTC rules. In my opinion, anyone delayed by the fact that other cars on the track were competing for their respective positions should simply suck it up. If F1 drivers at the top of their game can be held up by traffic, as they SO often are, then so can you.

LFS's Blue Flag message is not actually that accurate. It can trigger when a car, three cars behind you, is actually the trigger, even when the two cars that are behind you are racing you for position. You cannot rely on that flag to tell you when you're ACTUALLY under a blue flag. You're not ACTUALLY under a blue flag unless the car IMMEDIATELY behind you has a right to pass. Furthermore, you need not under anyone's normal racing rules make efforts to allow a lapping car through until they are actually IN a position to overtake.

The LFS blue flag should be regarded as an alert to a possible situation, rather like LFS's Yellow Flag, which triggers significantly more often than it should, but should not be treated as an alternative or a replacement to on-track observation.

srdsprinter

24th February 2008, 16:14

The Moose

24th February 2008, 16:17

Again, too much hotlap mentality around here.

If you are faster, make a move, and the car being lapped will yield the position. It's not rocket science.

:nod: :thumbsup:

Itar (CZ)

24th February 2008, 16:25

ad Blue flags
I have to apologize to Dynamic racing for fighting with them. I haven't receive informations from my teammate, that they're lap ahead of us. We'll do our best to not repeat that in next races.

ad race
Good race until we destroyed our engine. We were very slow then, so 13th position was the best, what we could do.

Many thanks to organizers and sorry again for that mistake on our site.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 17:05

There's some good discussion going on in here. It seems pretty likely that we will see a serious revision to the blue flag policies prior to round 2, so if anyone wants to take a stab at formulating a new, fair & balanced (sorry, Fox News) policy, please feel free. I'd like to get the best gauge for public sentiment before setting it in stone again.

The Moose

24th February 2008, 17:23

It seems pretty likely that we will see a serious revision to the blue flag policies prior to round 2

Why?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the rules as they are, if they are followed using common sense by everyone.

If you start pandering to the hotlap mentality racers I'll be pretty disappointed tbh.

The rules as you have them are fair and used my most forms of motorsport, i see no reason to change the rules, and plenty of reason for some drivers to learn what the rules actually mean.

dawesdust_12

24th February 2008, 17:24

Well, that's the problem Ben. Some drivers believe that blue flagged cars must "roll over and die" to let them past.
Where as others believe that blue flagged cars should just let them past, where others (correctly) believe that it's the lapping cars duty to make a successful pass, but the blue flagged car shouldn't do anything to hold the lapping driver up, like blocking or other defensive driving techniques.

The only problem with that, is while battling other people, you don't want to let someone you're battling past, thinking he's lapping you. A tracker idea is maybe (using button system), have at the bottom (a la CTRA BJ server), who is in front and behind you positionally (and gap at every split?), to make identifying who you're around better.

That should aid (even though some teams had good spotters, I know that the driver that was off + 1 other team mate spotting worked beautifully for us) teams in making the correct decision while letting blue flagging cars by. Also, Kyoto should be better for lapped cars than Blackwood, as it's actually a rather slow track.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 17:31

To clarify a bit, I don't plan to substantially alter the intent of the rule. I just plan to clarify the wording and to give more direct instructions to both the lapped car and the lapping car as to what they should do in a blue flag situation. To help drivers better understand the intent, as many seemed not to during round 1.

danowat

24th February 2008, 17:31

+1

Again, too much hotlap mentality around here.

If you are faster, make a move, and the car being lapped will yield the position. It's not rocket science.

That all sounds well and good, and would work if that were indeed the case, I am sure people aren't worried about those drivers that do adhere to that.

However, this discussion is coming about because of those few drivers who think it's ok to hold up, clearly faster, drivers for almost 2 laps in some cases, this is where the issue needs tidying.

No one is asking any driver to stop and let a faster driver throught, but those being lapped must appreciate that being held up for 1 or 2 laps, and or having to make clearly risky moves to try and get past, does make things frustrating for those trying to do the passing, especially if the driver needing to get past has the place behind them breathing down there neck.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 17:33

That all sounds well and good, and would work if that were indeed the case, I am sure people aren't worried about those drivers that do adhere to that.

However, this discussion is coming about because of those few drivers who think it's ok to hold up, clearly faster, drivers for almost 2 laps in some cases, this is where the issue needs tidying.

No one is asking any driver to stop and let a faster driver throught, but those being lapped must appreciate that being held up for 1 or 2 laps, and or having to make clearly risky moves to try and get past, does make things frustrating for those trying to do the passing, especially if the driver needing to get past has the place behind them breathing down there neck.

Agreed 100%. But on the other side of the coin, lapping drivers must respect and give room to the cars being lapped. There is absolutely no excuse for a lapping car to make contact with a lapped car while making a pass, even if the lapped car is driving poorly.

dawesdust_12

24th February 2008, 17:40

That's the thing. Sometime during the race, I let cars past while blueflagged very easy, without any battle. It's mostly about attitude too, if a "fast" car that's being blue flagged, I think he'd have more inclination to go "I'm faster than this person (or so he thinks, else he'd not be getting lapped) I'm not letting him by", whereas a team that thinks of themself to be "slow", they have a more liberal approach to letting cars past when under blue flag.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 17:42

The Moose

24th February 2008, 17:46

dawesdust_12

24th February 2008, 17:46

Yes, this is a problem. People occasionally need to swallow their pride.

I seemed to do it once every few corners... :p

Dimitry Gerards

24th February 2008, 17:47

I think you might be confused there. IIRC I was actually pulling away from you, so if you aren't actually faster, there is no reason for me to let you through only to be stuck behind you.

I have just checked the replay now, and I held my line at all times, just like the rules state. The only time you actually did a passing manouver, I let you through. Shame you took that turn so slowly that I still tapped your rear, making me lose time.
You got stuck behind me because you were slower :) Then I let the leader through (he actually tried to lap me, unlike you), that made me lose time, so you came too close, and did your first attempt at passing me and went through because I didn't defend. So there you are. ;)

Edit: comment to the above, the best way to let a lapping driver through is give them some draft on a straight, brake late for the turn and go wide, letting the lapping car through on the inside. Works great, and neither of the cars lose time (lapping car actually gains draft, what more can you want ffs :D)

I'm not sure what you were smoking when you wrote the above or what race you've been watching but you're completely wrong. Fact is that I was in 5th position, you were a couple of laps down and I got stuck behind you.... When the race leader (Conedodgers) pitted he came out of the pits just between yourself and me and he was in 4th position at the time. If you hadn't hold me up I would have been in front of him after his pitstop.

When he overtook you so did I, I couldn't afford losing more time behind you. As I wrote earlier I didn't want to make risky outbraking manouvres on lapped drivers, which is why I couldn't overtake you earlier... that was NOT because I was slower. I drove on the inside line a couple of times and you must have seen that in your mirror... I just dont understand why you didn't move out of the way.

After I got ahead of you I was pulling away from you, so I have no idea how you think you were faster then me.

And surely a "blue flag" message in your screen for 2 laps is not really indicating you're pulling away from someone... you weren't fighting for a position, so you had no reason to hold me up for that long.

*end rant*

Gil07

24th February 2008, 18:11

I must have a different replay then... :really: You never even attempted a pass, until CD was past me. No reason for me to just roll over and die, I'm racing too, you know?

This is one of the things that went wrong with the blue flags in thi srace, people not understanding that blue flag doesn't mean "stop right there and let me through". You have to attempt a pass first, and then the lapped driver can (and has to) let you through. I mean, is that the way you pass a car you're racing with too? :really: You shouldn't behave any different from a normal overtaking move, the blue flagged car does the rest.

If you had even made any sign that you wanted to pass I'd have gone wide and let you through, no problem at all.

Edit: I made far too much mistakes, getting back to being near you, but yes, I was pulling away slightly until I had to go wide for CD. After that there wasn't much racing for me anyway, SC came out and the big crash happened, etc...

And surely a "blue flag" message in your screen for 2 laps is not really indicating you're pulling away from someone...

Read what SamH said about blue flag detection in LFS, then you'll understand ;)

Anyway, point is, you lost time because of your own fault,a dn not because of me. Lesson learned, try to overtake next time ;)

BinBalde

24th February 2008, 18:16

It was a great race, we didn´t have luck in the qualification and in the race start, at least we were able to cross the finishing line and get back some lost places.

Congratulation to the winning team, to all of the contestans and the organizers.

See you in the second race :thumb:

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 18:16

If I can make a request... personal grievances from the race should be confined to PMs. I'd like to use this thread for discussion on how blue flag rules should be addressed to clarify them for the drivers who, as evidenced by Rd. 1, misunderstand them.

As I've been discussing with Zafar from 3id, the real issue here is not the rules but rather the inexperience/confusion of some drivers. Inexperience is not an issue that can be fixed with rules, but the rules can be clarified to make it easier for drivers to gain experience in a safe manner.

Gil07

24th February 2008, 18:18

Ok, sorry. I just felt I needed to defend my point ;)

The blue flag rules are clear enough for me, not sure how to clarify them any further to be honest...

Dimitry Gerards

24th February 2008, 19:08

The FIA rules for blue flags are clear enough to me... unfortunately IGTC has its own set of rules and they're not clear. For me they mean that a a driver trying to pass a lapped car has to do this in the same manner as if it was for a position and thus taking risk in doing so. I have no problem with a blue flagged driver keeping his line through corners, but as soon as we reach the straight he needs to give room to the car behind. That just didn't happen... and getting a slipstream is nice, but doesn't always work. If the lapped car has a low downforce setup he can be very fast on the straight and you won't even get a slipstream.

I hope the rule will change and follow the FIA position on this. Why trying to re-invent the wheel? The FIA made clear rules for this.

*edit* sorry I don't want to sound unrespectful to the organisers of the league, you're doing a great thing! ... but there's always room for improvements ;-)

Scott_Michaels

24th February 2008, 19:21

What a blue flag means in any governing body other than the FIA is that it should only be used to advise the lapped driver that there is a faster car approaching. It doesn't mean roll over and die, it doesn't even mean let them passed, its purely advisory. Which means that if you are in a battle for position and a faster car comes up on you, the slower cars are under absolutley no obligation to stop their battle and let the faster car through. Obviously the faster car is eventually going to get between the two slower cars, and when that happens the slower cars should use common sense and not race the faster one, but the faster car certainly should not expect the slower ones to get out of his way.

To let a lapping car passed is more of a gentleman's agreement of racing, not a hard and fast rule. Unfortunatley the hotlapper mentality tends to be predominant in the LFS comunity which leads to a slight lack in the gentleman attitude, which gives rise to discussions like this. It would be nice if we could come to a compromise using common sense.

And Dimitry, you are clearly demonstrating the "hotlapper" mentality. You are petrified about the prospect of actually having to catch the slower car and possibly be held up for a corner, and you clearly don't understand the process of lapping. What most slower drivers will do is allow you passed once you have initiated the move. Infact, as a faster driver in other sims, I hate it when slower drivers actively try to get out of my way. Its much better for them to stick to their line, wait for me to get close enough, then after i have initiated the pass, they back off and assist me getting through. But I never expect them to pull off-line and back off, mostly because thats spoiling their racing just to help me (which would be unfair for me to expect), but also because its an unpredictable move than can cause and accident. The FIA rule is written mostly to help the F1 boys who find overtaking almost impossible, and has no place in a touring/sports car endurance race.

Gil07

24th February 2008, 19:23

The FIA rules for blue flags are clear enough to me... unfortunately IGTC has its own set of rules and they're not clear. For me they mean that a a driver trying to pass a lapped car has to do this in the same manner as if it was for a position and thus taking risk in doing so.

That IS what they mean. So it seems they are clear. Have you ever in a race seen a lapped car braking on a straight? Most of the time passes happen in corners, and also with lappings. I don't see the danger in presenting yourself for the corner like you would in a normal pass, and go through on the inside of the corner...

I think the current rules are good, if everyone followed them correctly there would be no problems. I agree that there were cars that were blocking and unnecessarily holding up other cars (and themselves ;)), but that's due to driver attitude and not the rules. I don't like this "Hotlap" mentality, as if the track only belongs to the "faster" car... :/

Edit: Scott said it all, I have nothing to add.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 19:30

Dimitry, I've just reviewed the replay of your involvement with the #05 (laps 103-109).

At no point prior to the #15 car passing the #05 were you close enough to attempt a pass. There was no wrongdoing on the #05's part, and frankly I'm surprised you chose to make a fuss over this one. For most of the time you were at least a half second back.

Replay is here (http://www.mediafire.com/?ohezfyjyozd) (also includes the #06/#15 incident).

Dimitry Gerards

24th February 2008, 20:06

Jaysus.... I should stop writing on this forums altogether. Half a second is close enough to me... I don't want to have to take RISK to overtake a friggin' lapped car.

And where did I say anything about braking??? Just lift a little before entering a corner, brake 10 meter before you normally do and keep a wide line, that's all. I never said anything about going of your line and braking on the straight....

As for the hotlappers mentality... I clearly don't have that! I was very patient and being hold up from lap 103 - 109 (6 laps!) A hotlapper would have simply put his car on the inside and rammed the lapped car off the track (I saw this happen during this race as well). I didn't do any of that.

I'm not making a fuzz, it's just rediculous that a lapped car can legally hold off a faster car for more then 1 lap without making any atempt to give room. The FIA rules imply they need to do so at the first possibility.

Anyway, apart from those small things I had a great race and enjoyed it a lot. I'm looking forward to next race... there will unfortunately always be things like this. I just dislike the attitude of some of the lapped drivers here who are taking on a victim role and make all the faster drivers sound like megalomaniac hotlappers with no respect for other racers.

Fine with me... if you want me to bump you of the track next time I have to lap you I will not hesitate to take the risk. :thumb: I prefer being a clean driver though and not having to fall back to tactics like that....

SamH

24th February 2008, 20:10

Fine with me... if you want me to bump you of the track next time I have to lap you I will not hesitate to take the risk. :thumb: I prefer being a clean driver though and not having to fall back to tactics like that....
Dimitry, I hope this is completely in jest. I would hate to lodge an objection to you participating BEFORE the next race starts. Such blatant and willing threats of intent to wreck shouldn't be taken lightly by any admin.

dawesdust_12

24th February 2008, 20:12

1) it wasn't 6 laps, you got past him by 108.
2) For the better part of those 5 laps, you weren't even close, so he had no way to give up that position without slowing signfigantly.
3) You did eventually pass him properly, but it wasn't until then, that you were anywhere close to even make the pass.

Dimitry Gerards

24th February 2008, 20:13

Dimitry, I hope this is completely in jest. I would hate to lodge an objection to you participating BEFORE the next race starts. Such blatant and willing threats of intent to wreck shouldn't be taken lightly by any admin.

Of course I wouldn't do that.... I was being ironic. :x

SamH

24th February 2008, 20:15

Of course I wouldn't do that.... I was being ironic. :x
Thank goodness for that. I have to say that your approach to the whole thing does seem rather contrary to the spirit of the rules. I'm assuming you did agree to abide by the rules before round 1, yeah? [edit] ignore that.. participation is itself an agreement to abide by the rules :)

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 20:20

Jaysus.... I should stop writing on this forums altogether. Half a second is close enough to me... I don't want to have to take RISK to overtake a friggin' lapped car.

As for the hotlappers mentality... I clearly don't have that! I was very patient and being hold up from lap 103 - 109 (6 laps!) A hotlapper would have simply put his car on the inside and rammed the lapped car off the track (I saw this happen during this race as well). I didn't do any of that.

I'm not making a fuzz, it's just rediculous that a lapped car can legally hold off a faster car for more then 1 lap without making any atempt to give room. The FIA rules imply they need to do so at the first possibility.

There's no great risk involved in getting up to the bumper of the car ahead. In my opinion, you need to show the lapped car your nose if you want to be given a free pass to go by. Hanging out a few hundred meters behind his bumper isn't enough. He would have to let off substantially to let you by, given how far back you were.

From what I saw, the #05 was not holding you off, he was minding his own business and driving his line. You were reluctant/afraid to approach him.

This seems to be mainly a difference in POV, but the position above is the position of the admin team on the matter.

Anyway, apart from those small things I had a great race and enjoyed it a lot. I'm looking forward to next race... there will unfortunately always be things like this. I just dislike the attitude of some of the lapped drivers here who are taking on a victim role and make all the faster drivers sound like megalomaniac hotlappers with no respect for other racers.

Fine with me... if you want me to bump you of the track next time I have to lap you I will not hesitate to take the risk. :thumb: I prefer being a clean driver though and not having to fall back to tactics like that....

I'm glad you enjoyed the race, and I'm glad you're a part of the league. However, as I'm sure you're aware, there's a difference between applying some pressure to a lapped car (what you need to do) and bumping a lapped car (what you must not do).

I appreciate you being cautious, but you have to show some intent to pass to communicate to the car you're lapping.

Dimitry Gerards

24th February 2008, 20:36

Ok I saw the replay again and I over-reacted. At the time I was driving and andrenaline is flowing you see things differently ;)

Let's forget about it and move on.

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 20:46

Okay, I'm glad that's settled. I know how the adrenaline can make me react to things. :D

BreadC

24th February 2008, 21:54

There's no great risk involved in getting up to the bumper of the car ahead. In my opinion, you need to show the lapped car your nose if you want to be given a free pass to go by. Hanging out a few hundred meters behind his bumper isn't enough. He would have to let off substantially to let you by, given how far back you were.

i did just that.. showed my nose but still blocked..

2 examples

car 17 lap 25
car 26 lap 194

majority of others were ok..

DeadWolfBones

24th February 2008, 23:26

i did just that.. showed my nose but still blocked..

2 examples

car 17 lap 25
car 26 lap 194

majority of others were ok..

I'll take a look at those. But yes, there were quite a few incidents where there was inappropriate blocking, and it's something we want to address.

srdsprinter

24th February 2008, 23:47

BenjiMC

24th February 2008, 23:59

birder

25th February 2008, 00:33

As for the potential rules revisions:

Lapped Car must drive normal racing line/pace. No defensive manouvers. Must yield position to lapping car upon first overtaking manouver.

Lapping Car must present overtaking manouver to signal Lapped Car to yield.

Something along those line would make it appropriate for lapped cars to continue their own race, but yield when the lapping car is in position to pass.

Strong pentalties for contact or defensive manouvers against a lapping car.

That's my take on it, thoughts?

On CD servers we use:

Blue Flag:
One or more competitors are about to lap you. You must hold your course and allow them to pass UNIMPEDED. You must make sure you change speed and leave room to be passed.

UNIMPEDED is the important word

Now you have said:

"normal pace. Must yield", but these cannot both be done at the same time (IMO)

Normal pace means race as normal

And to yield would mean to "change speed and leave room to be passed" as in our rules.

Just to be clear, in round 1 cars were held up by slower cars and its not that easy to pass with pretty matched cars.

Your new rule either has to be very open as it is now and everyone will argue after each race or its made very clear and concise so there can be no argument whatsoever.

If you can come up with a good blue flag rule maybe it will become the standard for other servers and series.

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 00:44

I don't like the "change speed" part of your suggestion, Birder. Once a lapper shows a nose (say, approaching a corner), braking a bit early or taking a wide line to let them through is a preferable solution, IMO.

Swiss_Tony

25th February 2008, 00:47

A note on this...

I reviewed the replay, and watching from the heli view it seemed that once side by side, both cars (#06 and #15) basically drifted toward each other. However, the natural inclination at that point on the straight is to drift to the right to meet the "apex" of the straight (where it bends just after the overpass). Furthermore, #15 should never have been that close to the #06 while lapping. While this wasn't really overaggressive driving (I'd call it more brain fade than anything else), in conjunction with an earlier incident with the #13 car I felt the #15 deserved a DT.

Had the move on the #06 been overly aggressive or intentional looking, I would have gone with a SG.

Yea, the natural inclination and motivation for me to drift to the right is that the grass was looming on the left but then, according to #15 I should probably have taken to that so that he could get his car, that is obviously as wide as a house, safely past. It amazes me that, given that he was past me anyhow, why he felt the inclination to run me off the road. To get a drive through for such an incident is pathetic given that we were so badly damaged we had to pit for repairs which mean't that we paid the punishment for his bad judgement. He then confirms his bad attitude (or is it just ignorance of the rules) by saying here that all lapped drivers should instantly hop out of the way when being lapped.

QUOTE - "lol so its my fault that blue flag drivers dont slow down they try to race me down the straight?? right...."

Don't have to slow down - you were in front anyhow when you took me out, ignorance of the rules once again

"blue flag is a joke so many people do not give way.. the expect YOU to go around them.. thats not how it works"

That is how it works, they are allowed to stick to their line. I eased off the throttle to allow you to pass but once you were past you couldn't resist your utter contempt for back-markers and decided to push me off, no need whatsoever.

Had the move on the #06 been overly aggressive or intentional looking, I would have gone with a SG.

I would suggest it was both and given his posts it seems to me they are a confirmation of his intent. A black flag would have been a more fitting penalty but a drive through and a subsequent win? What's going on here? Is money exchanging hands ?

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 00:59

It's a load of fun being accused of corruption from both sides, I've got to tell you.

BreadC

25th February 2008, 01:00

I would suggest it was both and given his posts it seems to me they are a confirmation of his intent. A black flag would have been a more fitting penalty but a drive through and a subsequent win? What's going on here? Is money exchanging hands ?

right.. we paid them to let us win $300 i paid into their paypal

i saw places where cars were also not sent to back of line.. car 14 went off track under safety car once

and also 07 car went off under safety car BUT did they get sent back? no

did we? sure did.

so my $300 bucks didnt work did it

Swiss_Tony

25th February 2008, 01:04

They obviously paid more than you ...

racer hero

25th February 2008, 02:07

This is turning into a load of crap. I think the admins just don't want to deal with people fighting them even more when they penalize them.

SamH

25th February 2008, 02:55

Nahh.. I doubt very much any of the admins are scared of making an admin decision. There's no rush to make a call, now.. better to take some time and make a good call. Admins can't be pushed or bullied into choosing one way or the other faster than they choose. They're admins and far above that. :)

Relax and wait :tilt:

Let's quote up:

2.2) When being lapped, a driver is expected to drive a normal racing line and avoid erratic movements that may confuse lapping drivers. If a driver wishes to pull over and slow to let the leader pass, this should be done on a long straight and done in such a manner that the intent is clear to the lapping driver. Under no circumstances should a driver being lapped slow excessively while entering or in the middle of a corner.

Whatever anyone believes the rule should be, slowing on a straight is at the discretion of the car being lapped. Maintaining the normal racing line is expected of the car being lapped.

Anyone who drove in a fashion contrary to the accepted rules, as detailed here, is in breach of the series rules. You were required to read and agree to abide by these rules. Your participation in the league is indication that you have done so.

Note: Common sense is to be used regarding the rules. Teams who discover an unseen loophole should bring it up prior to an event, so that the event organisers can give a ruling on it. Participants in the series are expected to respect the marshals’ decisions and accept their rulings. Team Leaders, please make sure that all of the members of your team have read and fully understand the rules. The rules are subject to change throughout the season--all drivers are asked to re-read the rules prior to each event.
Complaining that the rules aren't right for Round 1, at THIS point, is out of order. Accept the admin decisions for Round 1, whether you agree with the decisions or not, and if necessary bite your lip. For Round 2, propose your changes and identify your loopholes, but forget contesting them for rulings on Round 1. If you had an issue with the Blue Flag rule when you read the rules that you were agreeing to, you should have said so before the first round. Raise the matter specifically for Round 2 onwards.

That's the rule and you already agreed to it, because you drove in Round 1. Pucker up, buttercup, we're off to Round 2.

Hallen

25th February 2008, 17:13

I need to mention a some stuff that I noticed while watching the race concerning lapping traffic.

I mostly saw good behaviour even though some lapped cars were being a little over zealous about trying to get out of the way.

I did see several cars, and I won't point out names here, that consistently held up faster cars for laps at a time. There were cases where the faster car was having trouble getting along side to make the pass. But, I could also see the faster car being held up in the corners and getting a bad launch off the corner and not being able to move alongside on the straight.

This is a two part problem. First, the faster driver needs to back off and work on his timing to leave the corner with enough speed to move alongside on the straight... or at least make it apparent that they are in position to move by.

Secondly, the lapped car needs to recognize when he is holding up another car. You may think you are maintaining a gap, but it is really an accordion and you are holding up faster traffic. Make provisions for this and although you shouldn't "roll over and die", be aware of good places to slow up for just a half second to let the faster car past.

I also saw on several occasions slower cars actively defending their position for several laps. At about the time I was going to recommend a warning or penalty, they would get passed, so no penalty during the race occurred. I actually saw several cars chop down on lapping traffic actually causing contact in mid corner.

All I can say about that is to pay attention. The corners are the best place to make a solid pass happen that does not cost much time to either driver. Be aware and know where the other car is. The lapping car must be aware and in position to take advantage when a lapped car "squares up" a corner so that you can get by. But also be aware that some corners are not good places to quickly get by. You must respect the race of the lapped cars too.

If lapped cars continue to fight faster traffic, it will not be good for any of us. It will lead to more contact (potentially semi-intentionally out of frustration) and more wrecked cars. It will make our jobs as Admins more difficult and time consuming.

We all know that the LFS blue flag system is not perfect. You must rely on your team to keep you informed on where each car behind you is in the standings and if you are fighting them for position or to perhaps keep from getting lapped. If not, work with the lapping traffic to make the pass happen where it costs both of you the least time. Remember, .1 second lost letting a lapping car past is much better than getting punted after holding that car up for 3 laps. It would hopefully be unintentional punting, but even if it isn't and the other car gets a penalty, you still got punted and had to pit for repairs or get pulled out of the sand. Not good for anybody.

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 17:17

Well said, Eric.

birder

25th February 2008, 17:25

SamH:

Round 1 results have been printed so people cannot do anything about them, and i dont think they are trying but there was clearly problems in this race due to cars being lapped.

Now if the rules are not clarified in a VERY clear and concise manner the same will happen again.

From the replay it took one driver 15 laps to make a 2 second gap on the car behind him which was then lost in 2 corners because of a BACK MARKER who would not let the much faster driver pass UNIMPEDED.

With racing this close and such a difference in pace between the fast guys and the slow ones ther will be a lot of lapping going on, its a bit like racing Kimi is a F1 GP car when others are in a Formula Ford.

If you simply take car #21 in this 198 lap race

6 cars 8 laps ahead = 48 (blue flags)
1 car 7 laps ahead = 7 (blue flags)
2 cars 6 laps ahead = 12 (blue flags)
3 cars 5 laps ahad = 15 (blue flags)
5 cars 4 laps ahead = 20 (blue flags)
1 car 3 laps ahead = 3 (blue flags)
2 cars 2 laps ahead = 4 (blue flags)

Thats 109 blue flags using a rule that is not clear and concise so a potential disaster if its not cleared up.

I am not saying that Car #21 caused any problems at all but showing the potential problems

And lets face facts it will help the slower guys just as much as the fast ones.

If cars in 1st and 2nd place are fighting for the win and after 198 laps the first car is just 0.12 seconds per lap faster then they both may take chances to get the win if they have chance.

If a team joins this series to win, then second is a poor result, if a team joins to take part then the win is not important.

People have said that its the hot lap mentality, well all i can say is to win you may well need to hot lap for all 4 hours.

What you seem to be saying is that its all part of "Racing" which puts over that you should treat every car you catch as being a car fighting for the win and you must try to pass, almost at all costs, which is rather stupid (IMO) when that car could simply move over and let him by.

Everyone is well aware that they can keep a faster car behind them if they so want, its the good drivers that let them go if they are not on the same race pace

If the blue flag rules stay as they are then there will be just the same problems next race and if it is i am not sure some of the faster guys will bother turning up.

If the IGTC is going to grow and attract top teams this needs sorting before round 2.

birder

25th February 2008, 17:30

lapping traffic.

Well said, at least someone saw what was happening :thumb:

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 17:47

What you seem to be saying is that its all part of "Racing" which puts over that you should treat every car you catch as being a car fighting for the win and you must try to pass, almost at all costs, which is rather stupid (IMO) when that car could simply move over and let him by.

Everyone is well aware that they can keep a faster car behind them if they so want, its the good drivers that let them go if they are not on the same race pace

When we say that it's part of racing we're not condoning lapped cars holding up lapping cars for no good reason. We're simply stating that sometimes it's not in the lapped cars' best interest to let a lapping car by right away. They might be fighting for position themselves, they might be in a difficult spot on the track, etc etc. We do expect lapped cars to give way to a faster car at the first sign of an attempted pass. We do not expect them to give up on their own race in order to benefit the lapping car.

"Racing" is dealing with the various obstacles that come up in the course of the race and persevering/being quick anyway.

The Moose

25th February 2008, 18:00

People have said that its the hot lap mentality, well all i can say is to win you may well need to hot lap for all 4 hours.

This is getting silly.
You cannot expect to drive with that hot lap mentality in an endurance race with 28+ other cars on track. Everyone is competing, whether its for first or twenty first. You have to accept that occasionally you are going to be slightly inconvenienced at times during the race.
That's racing for you, i suggest you watch some real endurance racing sometime.

I'm not saying its ever right to be held up for over a lap by backmarkers though.

If the blue flag rules stay as they are then there will be just the same problems next race and if it is i am not sure some of the faster guys will bother turning up.

I doubt they will be missed if they can't understand how racing actually works.

srdsprinter

25th February 2008, 18:12

This is getting silly.
You cannot expect to drive with that hot lap mentality in an endurance race with 28+ other cars on track.

You have to accept that occasionally you are going to be slightly inconvenienced at times during the race.

That's racing for you, i suggest you watch some real endurance racing sometime.

I doubt they will be missed if they can't understand how racing actually works.

Kudos and amen to this. :thumb:

There are Plenty of series already out there with the "get outta my way n00b!" rules in play.

If you're fast enough to catch a back-marker repeatedly only to get stuck behind mid-corner, then you really ought to work on timing. If you can't cleanly time a pass (actually merely present a nose) on a car (slower than your own) then I don't see why they should roll over and play dead when it's obvious that you're the one in need of more racecraft.

birder

25th February 2008, 18:25

That's racing for you, i suggest you watch some real endurance racing sometime.

Just for the record I have taken part in real endurance racing but as i dont race in this series myself i will say no more.

However saying you dont want the faster teams to take part is rather strange

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 18:28

I don't think anyone wants the faster cars out of the series.

Blue flag behavior is something that people on both "sides" of the issue get very passionate about and sometimes implications are slung about that neither side really means.

I'd appreciate it if we can all take it down a notch in here.

UncleBenny

25th February 2008, 18:31

Just for the record I have taken part in real endurance racing but as i dont race in this series myself i will say no more.

However saying you dont want the faster teams to take part is rather strange

He didn't say anything about not wanting the faster teams to compete, he said that no one is going to miss fast drivers that don't actually know how to race, which I completely agree with. There are plenty of fast guys out there(not specifically referring to this series, just in general) that do not know how to handle lapped traffic and that's completely their own fault.

Edit: was already in the process of typing this before I saw DWB's post, was just adding my two cents

r4ptor

25th February 2008, 18:43

I'm not sure where this "hot lap mentality" and "roll over and die" etc. are coming from and it's IMO being exaggerated.

I agree with Birder that you do need to have hot lap mentality. Maybe it's a wrong choice of words. We could say "You need to keep pushing" instead. I've done plenty endu races now, and we've (in the team) been saying several times "oh, X hours... pleeeenty of time" but then realize that, nopes.. you need to push all the way. But it doesn't mean that I/we expect anyone to drop dead.

This isn't a pro get-out-of-the-way comment, but I don't like seeing "hot lap mentality", "roll over and die" etc. being used in the way that it is because IMO I haven't truely seen anyone express such opinion either on or off the track.

At the heat of the moment, ppl can get upset etc, but that doesn't mean anything - sometimes you are ok with it and sometimes not. Depends allot on the situation.

danowat

25th February 2008, 18:46

birder

25th February 2008, 18:51

I emplore the IGTC admins to clarify the rules so that these sorts of disscusions become null and void, because it will go round, and round, and round, you get the idea......

I said i would not post but just had to say well said

+1

The Moose

25th February 2008, 18:53

However saying you dont want the faster teams to take part is rather strange

I didn't say that at any point.

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 19:08

danowat nailed it there.

So please, wait for us to formulate a new policy.

Then we can start another round of arguing. :D

SamH

25th February 2008, 19:19

SamH: [...] What you seem to be saying is that its all part of "Racing" which puts over that you should treat every car you catch as being a car fighting for the win and you must try to pass, almost at all costs, which is rather stupid (IMO) when that car could simply move over and let him by.
No, Colin, you're making some real leaps from what I said, which was very clear, to something I most certainly did NOT say. I really don't appreciate that.. twist someone else's meaning, not mine, thanks kindly.

I'll say it again.. being held up IS part of racing when you're in a server with a number of cars in a long race where lapping is involved. Unfortunate, annoying, time-consuming and a fundamental part of multiplayer racing. At no time did I, nor will I, ever suggest that you should fight a lapping car for position.

Hallen

25th February 2008, 19:21

Funny how the faster drivers moan about the slower drivers, and vice versa, ...........

It boils down to an ego thing, the slower drivers ego gets hurt because they have to yeld to faster drivers (and probably wish they were as fast, heck, I know I feel it) and the faster drivers ego's get the better of them when a slower driver gets in the way of "their" race.

Bottomline, this will never get sorted, not while there is such a spread of skill levels on the same track, so I emplore the IGTC admins to clarify the rules so that these sorts of disscusions become null and void, because it will go round, and round, and round, you get the idea......

Sure, ego gets in the way. But you are missing the point. The point is that all cars are racing. Some are racing to hold 18th spot and some are racing to hold 1st.

What the faster guy has to realize is that the slower guy is racing too. You may have to wait for a corner or two before the pass can happen if you catch them at a bad spot.

Conversely, the slower guy has to realize that the faster guy isn't just out there hot lapping for a pb. They are having a race too and every 10th of a second is important to them. Don't fight the guy, work with him to let him get around as quickly and as safely as possible.

Lapping is a big part of endurance racing. Traffic giveth and traffic taketh away. Learn from it and accept it. It will not change anytime soon. I can't say it any stronger than this. It is part of endurance racing at every level. Expanded and explicit rules are not really going to make it any different, just more complicated.

My last comment is this, if you are getting held up by a slower car who seems to be racing you, talk to the other team. We have team speak and vent servers up. We should have irc up for teams to use. Team managers should monitor these communications. This is exactly what real teams will do in races, they will talk to each other. You shouldn't have to discuss lapping, but that is one more tool to use. You never know, maybe somebody is confused because you discoed and reconnected and now you are 30 laps behind as far as LFS is concerned and you are not generating blue flags.

Lotesdelere

25th February 2008, 20:31

We're simply stating that sometimes it's not in the lapped cars' best interest to let a lapping car by right away. They might be fighting for position themselves, they might be in a difficult spot on the track, etc etc. We do expect lapped cars to give way to a faster car at the first sign of an attempted pass.
I've already posted earlier in this thread that the real problem was from some drivers who were 4, 5 or 6 laps down, and who were not having a close fight for position at this moment, fighting with the leaders for several laps while being under blue flag, even pushing the faster cars at fault or forcing them to make risky overtaking manoeuvres.
And this not happened to us CD only but to almost all teams which finished in the top 5.

By the rules as they are now, on a track like South City a slower car can easily hold up the whole pack behind him while doing nothing against the rules.

I fully understand that there might be slower cars on the track for many different reasons and that is part of racing but I find not acceptable that some drivers are ignoring the faster car(s) behind them for several laps while they are themselves not fighting for position.
The general blue flag rule doesn't say that it's an obligation to give the racing line nor to slow down but that you have to facilitate the overtaking of the faster car. What some drivers have deliberatly ignored during round 1, hence the need of a new set set of detailed rules to avoid any confusion.

So please, wait for us to formulate a new policy.

Then we can start another round of arguing. :D
OK, let's wait and see :)

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 20:35

I fully understand that there might be slower cars on the track for many different reasons and that is part of racing but I find not acceptable that some drivers are ignoring the faster car(s) behind them for several laps while they are themselves not fighting for position.
The general blue flag rule doesn't say that it's an obligation to give the racing line nor to slow down but that you have to facilitate the overtaking of the faster car. What some drivers have deliberatly ignored during round 1, hence the need of a new set set of detailed rules to avoid any confusion.

I think everyone here can get behind this sentiment. The issue is formulating a rule that is fair and clear to all.

We welcome suggestions, but in the meantime we'll be working on our own to draft one.

:thumbsup:

srdsprinter

25th February 2008, 20:59

The 5+ lap down car does not need to be fighting the leader. That is one thing i was unaware of going on in the first race.

I'll quote myself as for my idea, but Please note my added addendum below:

Lapped Car must drive normal racing line/pace. No defensive manouvers. Must yield position to lapping car upon first overtaking manouver.

Lapping Car must present overtaking manouver to signal Lapped Car to yield.

Lapped cars continue their own race, but yield when the lapping car is in position to pass.

Strong pentalties for contact or defensive manouvers against a lapping car.

* With the addendum: Once a car has been lapped twice (i.e. on the 3rd, 4th, lapping), the team looses the right to the hold position till first racing move and must yield at the first safe opportunity to do so.

Reasoning is that for 2 laps, a team is conceivably in the race. Lengthy pit stop, a crash, driver differences, etc could explain 2 laps difference. After 2 laps, you are attempting to gain maximum laps, and not fighting for podium positions.

* Overtaking Manouver/Position To Pass Definition. Lapping car within 2 car length and makes a move to inside towards a braking zone.

Ideally, common sense would negate the need for this kinds of rules; however, it is important to have almost all scenarios played out in the rules.

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 22:27

Just so everyone's aware, I'm also discussing with Starblue ways to use the tracker to:

a) Give cars 2+ laps down to the car behind a "waved blue flag" a la CTRA, and...
b) Give the admins a warning when a car stays ahead of a lapping car for X number of sectors.

dawesdust_12

25th February 2008, 23:00

What about a small BnJ style list in the bottom right corner, telling the driver who is positionally ahead and behind you?

niall09

25th February 2008, 23:01

What about a small BnJ style list in the bottom right corner, telling the driver who is positionally ahead and behind you?

Yeah, that would be a great idea :thumb:

dawesdust_12

25th February 2008, 23:02

Especially seeing I think I've spammed it 4 times? :p

DeadWolfBones

25th February 2008, 23:17

I've never driven BnJ... can I get a screenie here?

dawesdust_12

25th February 2008, 23:22

I'll go get a BJ, then post the screenshot here.

r4ptor

25th February 2008, 23:25

I'll go get a BJ, then post the screenshot here.

:scratchch

dawesdust_12

25th February 2008, 23:30

Here, along the bottom is how it is in BJ server, then my great paint skills is how I'd concieve it to be in the IGTC tracker, else it'll cover the clutch temperature bit.

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 06:42

First attempt at a new Blue Flag section for the rules:

1) When being lapped, a driver is expected to drive a normal racing line and avoid erratic movements that may confuse lapping drivers. Under no circumstances should a driver being lapped slow excessively while entering or in the middle of a corner.
1.1) If a lapped car is one lap down to the lapping car, the lapped driver must yield position upon the first properly-presented overtaking maneuver by the lapping car.

1.2) If a lapped car is two or more laps down to the lapping car, the lapped driver must yield position at the earliest opportunity in a manner that does not violate rule I1. Acceptable methods include slowing slightly on a straight or taking a wider line through a corner.
2) As the in-race running order is often incorrect, teams are expected to monitor the tracker and LFS Remote in order to provide their driver with information regarding the status of lapped or lapping cars. Ignorance of a lapping or lapped car’s position in the running order is not an acceptable excuse for blocking.

3) Lapped drivers must not defend against overtaking maneuvers presented by lapping cars. Any defensive maneuver will result in a DT penalty. A defensive maneuver resulting in contact will result in a SG penalty.

4) Lapping drivers must use caution when overtaking lapped cars. Over-aggressive or poorly-presented overtaking attempts resulting in contact will result in a SG penalty as described in rule H5.

The only real issue I see here is that cars 2+ laps down may still be quicker than a lapping car (particularly following a restart). Requiring them to let a lapping car by may create an undesirable situation wherein the faster (but lapped) car must give up his position and then shadow the lapping car. Furthermore, a lapped car has the right to attempt to un-lap himself if he has sufficient pace.

Perhaps some common sense can be used here. Is it necessary to write in a clause stating that a faster lapped car may ignore rule I1.2?

Please, poke holes in this proposal. We need to get this right.

Dimitry Gerards

26th February 2008, 07:59

Sounds better then it was before :) During the last race when Heikki was driving his final stint in #29 there was a lapped car catching up with him. I was watching this over LFS Remote and the Tracker and told Heikki to let the faster, but lapped, car pass as it was not for a position and was going 0.5s/lap faster at the time. Funny how that "lapped" car spun off the track just a few turns later though.... ;-) But it was the proper thing to do.
As you said...it's common sense, teams should do this and instruct their drivers when occasions like that come up :thumb:

der butz

26th February 2008, 08:01

I'm sorry, but I feel the need to get involved in this discussion with some practical input.

CR had 2 spotters, me and R.Hoiting. we were constantly following the race via the tracker and remote (with me sometimes having to reconnect after suffering from connection problems).
Our strategy was : Moose 1st stint, bean0 2nd, Tony 3rd, Moose 4th to gain some ground back.
After a few minor incidents and quite unlucky descisions concerning SC laps we've found ourselves 4 laps down with a slightly popping engine and the Moose catching up to the SR car. He could do 1:09:low stable and came from about 20s behind SR to about 1s!
IF the above new rule would be there it would not have allowed us to unlap ourselves several times to get back to our position.

Imo you can surely change the blue flag rules in order to refine things, but maybe you should more adress to the drivers brains then put up more regulations.

Overtaking, especially lapping always involves the thing called common sense by both racers involved.

Let's take KY as an example, the first few corners after the high camber one. It will NOT be possible to make a clean pass in the right hander, cars might overshoot and land in the sand trap. The best thing to do here for the lapping car would be to wait and stay a few car lengths behind until the beginning of the double right, take a wider line, thus being able to accelerate faster and get the blue flagged car easily on the straight. This whole thing might be a few tenths slower (depending on both car's pace) but no one would be hurt.
I expect people to do it the first described way though....

If everyone would use his brain you could spare the safety car and we all could really enjoy the races

enough of that now :-)

greetz

der butz

dawesdust_12

26th February 2008, 08:08

Well, we had 1 spotter + the other driver being a spotter, and we had no problems really. Except when 1 spotter was getting drunk, and I was making food, leaving sam to himself, which wasn't bad at all.

R.Kolz

26th February 2008, 11:42

... maybe you should more adress to the drivers brains then put up more regulations...
der butz

+1

Here´s some way to arvieve this:

- the first two laps of the race every car will be monitored by the admins after the race (replay)
- on aSC period the following 2 laps every car will be monitored by the admins after the race (replay)
-the last two laps of the race every car will be monitored by the admins after the race.(replay)

I have a strong feeling that the IGTC admins know exactely how they want to have their race.
I don´t think the IGTC admin stuff has the manpower to go through a replay and check on every car during the hole 4 hours. That´s why I propose the 2 laps only. The way protests are done, should of course still be valid.

Every single incident detected by the admins after the race will get punished.
In the way i describe every driver will sooner or later know what is allowed to do - or not.
There will be better and more cautious racing all in all.
Mayby not the upcoming race as some people first have to feel how it´s like to get some point reduction after the race, but in two or three races everybody will know what to do and what they better not should do... :nod:

bdshan

26th February 2008, 12:08

What the faster guy has to realize is that the slower guy is racing too. You may have to wait for a corner or two before the pass can happen if you catch them at a bad spot.

Conversely, the slower guy has to realize that the faster guy isn't just out there hot lapping for a pb. They are having a race too and every 10th of a second is important to them. Don't fight the guy, work with him to let him get around as quickly and as safely as possible.

Lapping is a big part of endurance racing. Traffic giveth and traffic taketh away. Learn from it and accept it. It will not change anytime soon. I can't say it any stronger than this. It is part of endurance racing at every level. Expanded and explicit rules are not really going to make it any different, just more complicated.

Very well said, Hallen.

+1

SamH

26th February 2008, 12:14

Please, poke holes in this proposal. We need to get this right.
Bottom line, it's prescriptive rather than goal-based, and thus it's likely that it will break in some way.

I would recommend taking Eric Hall's statement, which is the essence of what you want to convey by re-defining the blue flag rules, and try to make that itself into a rule. The more goal-based you can make your rule, the less opportunities for people to find loopholes in it.

bdshan

26th February 2008, 12:35

Perhaps some common sense can be used here.

Bones, if common sense was being used by the lapping , as well as, lapped cars you wouldn't have to re-write the rules.

I think you are setting yourself up for controversy. The 2+ laps down but fast than a lapping car clause is rather subjective. Additionally, if I am faster even though I am multiple laps down I am not giving up my position only to tail the lapper because he is laps ahead, just makes for a dangerous situation. As you state lapped cars have the right to unlap themselves if possible.

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 13:59

Alright, so how about just getting rid of 1.2 and altering 1.1?:

1) When being lapped, a driver is expected to drive a normal racing line and avoid erratic movements that may confuse lapping drivers. Under no circumstances should a driver being lapped slow excessively while entering or in the middle of a corner.
1.1) The lapped driver must yield position upon the first properly-presented overtaking maneuver by the lapping car.
2) As the in-race running order is often incorrect, teams are expected to monitor the tracker and LFS Remote in order to provide their driver with information regarding the status of lapped or lapping cars. Ignorance of a lapping or lapped car’s position in the running order is not an acceptable excuse for blocking.

3) Lapped drivers must not defend against overtaking maneuvers presented by lapping cars. Any defensive maneuver will result in a DT penalty. A defensive maneuver resulting in contact will result in a SG penalty.

4) Lapping drivers must use caution when overtaking lapped cars. Over-aggressive or poorly-presented overtaking attempts resulting in contact will result in a SG penalty as described in rule H5.

srdsprinter

26th February 2008, 14:17

I like this latest revision... fairly.

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 14:17

And Sam, if you can give me an idea of what you mean by goal-based, please do so. Try to rewrite that current rule section I just posted in that style.

Thanks!

BreadC

26th February 2008, 14:31

Funny how the faster drivers moan about the slower drivers, and vice versa, I am starting to think the only way to at least come close to solving this issue is to ballast/intake restrict the faster drivers so they don't lap the slower ones...........

Either that or both parties act sensibly, which we know probably isn't going to happen.

It boils down to an ego thing, the slower drivers ego gets hurt because they have to yeld to faster drivers (and probably wish they were as fast, heck, I know I feel it) and the faster drivers ego's get the better of them when a slower driver gets in the way of "their" race.

Bottomline, this will never get sorted, not while there is such a spread of skill levels on the same track, so I emplore the IGTC admins to clarify the rules so that these sorts of disscusions become null and void, because it will go round, and round, and round, you get the idea......

so the fast drivers are gonna get penalized even more coz they spend hours and hours getting the perfect setup while others just turn up and race? i saw a few PB's in the race where they improved by 3-4 seconds..

its not the fault of drivers who put in the hard work of perfecting a setup which can hold a 1:08 lap every lap.

danowat nailed it there.

So please, wait for us to formulate a new policy.

Then we can start another round of arguing. :D

right.... i await to read these new ballast rules....

PS. for all you that say we front runners are "hotlappers" that is not true... the teams all probably have a set which they worked hard on thats why they all were in top 5.

and i was in hotlapping mode.. but only from 3 hours 50 to 4 hours... hence fastest lap last lap

joshdifabio

26th February 2008, 14:47

The most annoying thing is when you lap someone, and then they draft you out of the corner and you have to yield to them into the next turn to avoid an incident. This just loses (note the correct spelling nubs) both of you a lot of time and is completely pointless, especially when you are clearly quicker.

It should certainly not be allowed imo, it's basically the same as defending a pass if you continually attempt to repass a car as soon as it laps you. This is especially common with the GTR class as the FZR is a lot better than the others under braking, the FXR accelerates more quickly from the corners, and the FXR and XRR both have a higher top speed than the FZR.

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 14:53

BreadC, I think dano was using a bit of sarcasm there. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

There will be no "success ballast" in the IGTC. Ever.

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 14:55

danowat

26th February 2008, 14:58

BreadC, I think dano was using a bit of sarcasm there. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

There will be no "success ballast" in the IGTC. Ever.

Yeah, doesn't come across to well in written text.........:D

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 15:03

The perils of taking the internets as serious business, I guess. :tilt:

SamH

26th February 2008, 15:23

Here's an example. I'm not actually proposing these as a set of rules, but basically lifting from what Eric said and using as little prescriptive and as much goal-based ruling as I could in a hurry (I'm busting for the bathroom!)

What the faster guy has to realize is that the slower guy is racing too. You may have to wait for a corner or two before the pass can happen if you catch them at a bad spot.

1.1) It is the responsibility of lapping cars to wait for a safe opportunity to perform an overtaking manoeuvre by indicating presence and their intention to the car ahead. (flash headlights 3 times).
Conversely, the slower guy has to realize that the faster guy isn't just out there hot lapping for a pb. They are having a race too and every 10th of a second is important to them. Don't fight the guy, work with him to let him get around as quickly and as safely as possible.

1.2) Cars being lapped must acknowledge the presence of approaching lapping cars by turning on their hazards for 2 seconds either in advance of being flashed, or immediately upon. Failure to acknowledge a lapping car within two track segments (corners or straights) may be considered wilful obstruction by the admins.

Lapping is a big part of endurance racing. Traffic giveth and traffic taketh away. Learn from it and accept it. It will not change anytime soon. I can't say it any stronger than this. It is part of endurance racing at every level. Expanded and explicit rules are not really going to make it any different, just more complicated.1.3) Once both the lapper and lappee have established acknowledgement of each other, they are bound to work together to allow passage safely immediately and without hesitation.
2.0) A cluster of cars is defined as a group of 2 or more cars competing together for position, with no more than 2 car lengths between any car in the group.
2.1) Lapping cars, approaching clusters, must accept that a delay may be inevitable. The Lead Car of such clusters may indicate a willingness to be overtaken by the use of hazards. This indication should then perculate promptly to the rear of the cluster, resulting in an indicated easy passage for the lapping car.
2.2) Advantage must not be taken by any car in the cluster until the lapping car is fully past the whole group.
2.3) The marshals place expectation for these rules to be followed by both the lapper and lappee cars. Failure to comply in a prompt fashion by either parties may result in penalties. Marshals retain the right to determine if compliance is a driver's action is regarded as sufficiently prompt, and cars involved in blue flag situations should act immediately to avoid penalties accordingly.
The last bit, 2.3, just basically seals the bag.. drivers can openly interpret and stretch the rules as much as they want, but on pain of death of their team's standings. What is expected is, here, well defined.. push it and a driver may just push himself out.

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 15:34

1.1) It is the responsibility of lapping cars to wait for a safe opportunity to perform an overtaking manoeuvre by indicating presence and their intention to the car ahead. (flash headlights 3 times).
1.2) Cars being lapped must acknowledge the presence of approaching lapping cars by turning on their hazards for 2 seconds either in advance of being flashed, or immediately upon. Failure to acknowledge a lapping car within two track segments (corners or straights) may be considered wilful obstruction by the admins.
1.3) Once both the lapper and lappee have established acknowledgement of each other, they are bound to work together to allow passage safely immediately and without hesitation.2.0) A cluster of cars is defined as a group of 2 or more cars competing together for position, with no more than 2 car lengths between any car in the group.2.1) Lapping cars, approaching clusters, must accept that a delay may be inevitable. The Lead Car of such clusters may indicate a willingness to be overtaken by the use of hazards. This indication should then perculate promptly to the rear of the cluster, resulting in an indicated easy passage for the lapping car.2.2) Advantage must not be taken by any car in the cluster until the lapping car is fully past the whole group.2.3) The marshals place expectation for these rules to be followed by both the lapper and lappee cars. Failure to comply in a prompt fashion by either parties may result in penalties. Marshals retain the right to determine if compliance is a driver's action is regarded as sufficiently prompt, and cars involved in blue flag situations should act immediately to avoid penalties accordingly.

I see what you're trying to do with this, but I think it necessitates too many silly rules (i.e., 2.1 and 2.2) that would be very difficult to execute in actual racing. I like the headlights/hazards idea (I know headlights are used this way in real life enduro racing), but I think that in LFS this might cause more problems than it solves.

I think that prescriptive can still work here.

srdsprinter

26th February 2008, 15:37

I like the intent, but hazzards and flashing lights are going to send me off the track fumbling around the keyboard. I've never used them, and the G25 doesn't have a plethora of easily accessible buttons.

I still think K.I.S.S.: Lapping car must present a passing manouver, lapped car must not defend.

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 15:38

I agree with that, Stu.

danowat

26th February 2008, 15:40

Jesus, IMO, this is getting waaaaayyy out of hand.

As an aside from this DWB, how does this lapping situation work in MoE?

joshdifabio

26th February 2008, 15:54

Do you think this needs to be explicitly written in?

Possibly, I do think that it was a problem during round 1. Maybe just add that attempting to immediately re-pass a car which has just lapped you is seen as defensive driving.

SamH: I think that you need to realise that "hotlapping", as you call it, is probably the main part of endurance racing. Look at the results from any IGTC or MoE race and you will see that the teams posting the fastest times are at the front! If a team is more aggressive than others at passing backmarkers, and gains 0.2s per lap because of it, this adds up a lot over a period of four hours. 0.2 per lap would equate to around 40 seconds in the race just gone.

It's not fair to keep critisizing teams for wanting to lap as quickly as possible; if a team wants to challenge for wins then they can't possibly give away a few tenths every lap. Remember that in an endurance race you aren't constantly battling for position with the cars around you, gaining places is achieved by being quicker over a long period of time, which means being fast lap after lap.

I also want to add that hotlapping means being fast over 1 lap, being consistently fast over a sustained period of time is a different skill entirely. People need to stop bashing others for wanting to win races!

Gil07

26th February 2008, 15:58

"Hotlapping mentality" has nothing to do with being fast. It is acting like you're the only one with the right to be on the track, and everyone should move aside for you when they catch a small glimpse of you in their mirrors ;)

Stu's K.I.S.S. sounds good enough for me... :tilt:

The Moose

26th February 2008, 16:02

I like the intent, but hazzards and flashing lights are going to send me off the track fumbling around the keyboard.

Agreed. My hands don't want to come off the wheel at all during a stint.

SamH

26th February 2008, 16:04

As I said, it wasn't intended to be a proposal for rules. It was just an example of homing in from what you want to achieve to a rule-set that achieves it. The more you can filter out the intricacies while covering the aspects they relate to, the better and more usable the rule-set becomes. :)

[edit]Josh, what Gil said. It's about the mindset, not about the activity. :)

BreadC

26th February 2008, 16:06

during the race i only had to defend my position from a backmarker once...

so i dont think after getting lapped is much of a problem

maybe others had it more?

SamH

26th February 2008, 16:13

during the race i only had to defend my position from a backmarker once...

so i dont think after getting lapped is much of a problem

maybe others had it more?
We had it the other way where our driver was put into a wall by someone coming through, too impatient to wait for an appropriate moment, and (it seemed to me either totally deliberately or blatantly disrespectfully) ran our guy off the track and into a wall. I don't think the lapping driver lost 4 places with his DT, like he caused us to do. I feel very familiar with this situation being very firmly on the receiving end of an unsporting and bullish mentality in lapping drivers.

BreadC

26th February 2008, 16:14

We had it the other way where our driver was put into a wall by someone coming through, too impatient to wait for an appropriate moment, and (it seemed to me either totally deliberately or blatantly disrespectfully) ran our guy off the track and into a wall. I don't think the lapping driver lost 4 places with his DT, like he caused us to do. I feel very familiar with this situation being very firmly on the receiving end of an unsporting and bullish mentality in lapping drivers.

i guess that was a dig...

nevermind.. life goes on

SamH

26th February 2008, 16:16

Oh bugger, was that you? :x Sorry mate, I didn't realise! LOL

DeadWolfBones

26th February 2008, 16:17

Jesus, IMO, this is getting waaaaayyy out of hand.

As an aside from this DWB, how does this lapping situation work in MoE?

Surprisingly uncomplicatedly.

If you'd asked me prior to round 1, I would have sworn we'd be arguing about the SC periods right now, not blue flags. Go figure.

Anyway, unless anyone has a major objection to the last revision I posted here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=722222#post722222), I think we can move ahead with those rules. I'm interested to hear whether CD in particular have an objection.

They should be clear enough for everyone to understand, and the penalties for disobeying them are obvious.

I would also say that cars who are found guilty of blocking/defending against lappers 2x or more in a race will probably face points penalties and/or probation/suspension, at the marshals discretion. As would lapping cars who repeatedly fail to show respect to lapped cars.