Is it my imagination or are the numbers of online racers declining?

[Gentlefoot]

Can't seem to get a decent race in the FOX or the TBOs around blackwood tonight - what is going on?

Normally there would be Redline Racing or a CTRA server but everywhere is deserted.

Is it time for an LFS Community Club night? Not that I have time to organise anything. :)

[chanoman315]

Fox now is lame.... and yes it had been decreasing in a while

[Storm_Cloud]

I suppose you could take on the XRT at Blackwood in the demo.

Oh, no, hang on...

I don't drive in pickup races, so not sure really. Is everyone still driving FBM at SO Chicane? The lfsw stats don't seem to show a decline per se.

[RMachucaA]

what do you expect? we humans can only hold an interest in a stagnating puddle for so long.

That would be different if scavier started pouring some fresh water into it full of colorful and highly detailed fish with nice tropical beach like decorations.

[Storm_Cloud]

There's me thinking my lion-hunting homo-cannibalistic metaphor that I posted on www.gentlefoot.com (http://www.gentlefoot.com) just HAD to be the best LFS related metaphor for weeks and weeks.

And you beat me already.

[Woz]

All down to no new real content (Apart from FMB and an SO config since S2)

Things are very quiet down under now most nights. Only solution is S3 IMHO to bring new cars/tracks.

[chanoman315]

All down to no new real content (Apart from FMB and an SO config since S2)

Things are very quiet down under now most nights. Only solution is S3 IMHO to bring new cars/tracks.
why not just S2 with new cars... not necesary S3 for new cars....
and to shut down all Cruise servers... like 90 ppl are there everyday.. filled 3 servers

[The Moose]

why not just S2 with new cars... not necesary S3 for new cars....

Cars ain't the problem, it's the lack of tracks that is causing me to loose interest:shrug:

[chanoman315]

Cars ain't the problem, it's the lack of tracks that is causing me to loose interest:shrug:
me too... any new variations like Fernbay, it has variations and parts of track where you cant acces...like the mansion :D

[rcpilot]

Cars ain't the problem, it's the lack of tracks that is causing me to loose interest:shrug:
Most pickup racers tend to race the same 3 or 4 cars/tracks. :razz: I've gotten used to pretty much all of the tracks forward/reverse through leagues, and I'm getting a bit bored with 'em, but...

[The Moose]

I really think it's time the community were given the tools to make LFS tracks, but only ones of a high standard and approved by the devs get put into the the game.

I'm more than happy with the speed of development of the rest of the game, and have no problem with the selection of cars currently available. We need tracks.


ohh... and to answer GF's original question, yes, i think the number of racers is declining. It seems very quiet recently.

[poirqc]

Personnaly, it's the sound that keep me away from lfs.

I like to way it tells you what the engine is doing, but i can't listen to that more than 5 minutes...

[mrodgers]

Don't know what everyone is complaining about. There's like 28 people on 8 racing servers....

Welcome to the North American LFS racer's world... :(

[RatzMilk]

I also agree with the posters above, we need more tracks. The number of cars is ok.

We should have a system like the Skin download system. You can upload your 10 favorite tracks. If you host a race, you can choose any of the 10 tracks which is then downloaded by those that race on the server.

Maybe even make this track download system available as premium service like the high resolution skins.

I'm not interested is paying for hi res skins, but I would happily pay to download tracks to race on.

And like other games with user created tracks, the developers wouldn't be held responsible for the licensing of the tracks ah la rfactor or GTR2.

I'm actually about to buy rfactor just so I can race V8 Supercars around Bathurst. I'd be happy to race the GTR cars in LFS around Bathurst, or Imola, or Suzuka etc., but that simply isn't going to be happening in the near future.

I'm quite happy to put up with the inferior physics of rfactor, to get access to the greater range of tracks.

[Woz]

I also agree with the posters above, we need more tracks. The number of cars is ok.

We should have a system like the Skin download system. You can upload your 10 favorite tracks. If you host a race, you can choose any of the 10 tracks which is then downloaded by those that race on the server.

Maybe even make this track download system available as premium service like the high resolution skins.

I'm not interested is paying for hi res skins, but I would happily pay to download tracks to race on.

And like other games with user created tracks, the developers wouldn't be held responsible for the licensing of the tracks ah la rfactor or GTR2.

I'm actually about to buy rfactor just so I can race V8 Supercars around Bathurst. I'd be happy to race the GTR cars in LFS around Bathurst, or Imola, or Suzuka etc., but that simply isn't going to be happening in the near future.

I'm quite happy to put up with the inferior physics of rfactor, to get access to the greater range of tracks.

Its not as easy as that. The tracks need to be built. If all that will happen is that we have loads of rF tracks then BIG BIG -1 for modding. Most of those tracks are conversions of conversions.

We need tracks built and optimised for LFS from the ground up or its just pointless.

[MR_B]

I like the quality of this thread, so i'll comment. :D

Having Scavier selecting the best tracks would be a good idea indeed! Maybe have only one 3rd party track on lfs per month? So you don't end up with loads of tracks that someone has to download. They allow a new track to be used for one month only?

And if there is no worthy tracks in a particular month, they can re-use a previously submitted one. (Making it more worthwhile for the creators of these 3rd party tracks)

Back on the subject of declining racers. I haven't noticed the decline personally, I had a six month break from LFS last year, and was stunned by the huge amount of servers that were being used at any one time.

I remember when there was only 20 populated. I've seen 120 of late!

[atlantian]

hey, i still hang out on blackwoods online with my white XRG with gold rims!

[axus]

I've grown bored with sim racing. Not so much because of lack of content but because every sim has massive physics flaws, even LFS, when it comes to tyres. Come on! That should be the first thing to get right on the list - it's, in most cases, your only contact with the road surface and so every force is translated through the tyres. Even if you get something else right, it goes down the drain by the time it is applied on the road.

More content would of course help too. But I think the existing content must be brought to S2 final standard first. I mean, every track with the quality of Blackwood and South City, good interiors for all cars, good driver models, etc. Of the tracks, Fern Bay is begging for improvements. Westhill is too. Kyoto needs some spectators and small improvements here and there but is otherwise fine. Aston is nearly what it should be too.

Do all that with a series of no-distractions physics improvements and you'll see online numbers sky rocket.

Sadly, if history is to repeat itself, the earliest we'll see physics improvements is in 9 months' time.

[lizardfolk]

I really think it's time the community were given the tools to make LFS tracks, but only ones of a high standard and approved by the devs get put into the the game.


That's what they are going to do in ARCA Sim and that's what they should do in LFS.

I dont think a new layout would stimulate the LFS community. It's new environments with a few layouts within that'll make a big impact.

[Fat-Alfie]

They allow a new track to be used for one month only?

There's no way I'd be interested in spending several weeks designing and building a track, only to have it removed after 4 weeks? Remember, you're not just talking about a racing track, but all the surrounding area, with buildings, vegetation, terrain, skyboxes....

To remove it after 4 weeks would be a complete waste of time, and I think it would stop most builders from contributing.

[lizardfolk]

There's no way I'd be interested in spending several weeks designing and building a track, only to have it removed after 4 weeks? Remember, you're not just talking about a racing track, but all the surrounding area, with buildings, vegetation, terrain, skyboxes....

To remove it after 4 weeks would be a complete waste of time, and I think it would stop most builders from contributing.

I agree, if new tracks are created and accepted they should be long term

[felplacerad]

http://www.lfsworld.net/content/inc/historygraph.php?text=1&which=s1p&span=182&width=600&abc=1203489023

Looks like there were just below 500 racers online at peak hours during patch X. When patch Y was released there was an increase, obviously. Now we're back to to "normal", or perhaps a bit above.

[The Very End]

As people state, it`s the current lack of new stuff that is getting people to lose interest.
Don`t get me wrong, the new SO and BL aswell as the new car is awesome, but we need something completely new and fresh. Why not finish that rallypack, or miami track as they called it back in a S1 interveiw :tilt:

[Glenn67]

Other life events is why I'm not online much at the moment, only get about 2hrs a week to spare for LFS currently.
That is normally a Thursday evening here in Aus which is dead :shrug: so I normally go online do a few laps in the LX6 occassionaly joined by one or two others then log off 30-60min later on average...

[danowat]

It is true, general interest is waning alot in LFS of late, it has been for a while.

While "we" do get new members, the amount of "old" members playing online has been declining for a while.

It is getting VERY tough to organise any racing leagues, because the interest for them and racing in general just doesn't seem to be there.

One of the main reasons for this I believe is the lack of combo's, we have been racing the same damn combo's for years and years, that and the slow development cycle.

I think the trend will continue, and the amount of players and races will dwindle over time, the "playing field" is moving faster than LFS's development, and it will only get worse, unless development time speeds up.

Personally, outside of the leagues we organise, and practicing for IGTC, I am finding it tough to get the motivation to race, I reckon in the last 3 months I have played "public" racing for probably less than 3 hours.

The combo's are boring, the physics engine still has the same flaws, the graphics are looking dated, the only thing that keeps me playing LFS at all is the people that play it, and the racing that can be found by playing these people, if that wasn't there, I would have moved away from LFS completely a while ago.

TBH, I am getting more FUN by picking up and playing Forza 2 for an hour, than I do picking up and playing public LFS racing, sad but true........

[bluejudas]

+1 for track modding!!

But....

1. New tracks must be approved by a "track board"/lfs team
2. Make them downloadable through LFS so that the user always will have the latest version

The board will make sure that we only get quality tracks. They can/will also integrate them in LFS World. It take time to make quality tracks and approve them so there will not be pouring in tracks. My guess is that there will be a healthy growth of new tracks. I think this will be good for LFS!! :D

[ebola]

Surely adding more tracks will thin out the already, relatively small LFS community?

[xtm]

As said above, any kind of global approval team will discourage people from working on making new tracks: it takes time, effort and you don't want to waste it all if the "approval team" doesn't like your track.

I believe every server should be able to choose their own tracks, and if you are missing one, it automatically downloads it as you connect (like downloading missing maps in quake or CS). The more respectable servers like CTRA, CD are obviously gonna take the selection process seriously and you are not likely to see any crap maps there.
Again, there is no need for the approval/censoring team, the natural selection will do its job, the good maps will be well known, the crap ones will enjoy minutes of fame on private servers :)

[Polyracer]

Surely adding more tracks will thin out the already, relatively small LFS community?
My feelings too, I'm not sure what the problem is - if indeed there is a problem, it may just be a seasonal dip for some reason.

But I don't feel its the lack of content, I think there are far too many servers to support the number of drivers, therefore thinning out the field on any one server.

If everyone want's to go to their own personal night club then that would make for a very boring evening.

I'm not sure what the answer is but increasing the content will make the problem worse as we will have more choice, - you only need to look at any other game to see that - specially rFactor.

It seems that from what I say, - a smaller number of servers will increase the field on the remaining servers - therefore increasing the competition.
In real terms we have about the same choice as drivers in a real racing season as far as tracks go, and a much bigger choice in cars.

But we can also spend more time at the track than real racers do so perhaps familiarity is breeding boredom, hmmm dunno what the answer is really.

[Eldanor]

Cars ain't the problem, it's the lack of tracks that is causing me to loose interest:shrug:

True, we are getting one or two South City variations and maybe a Club version of Westhill, but I think we need new environments rather than new variation
s. IMO.

[Dajmin]

I disagree that more choice would cause thinning numbers.

Quite the opposite, I think more servers with a better choice would be refreshing.
Now I can't really talk as a regular since I've not really played since my wheel went south, but even before then I was sick of the same old boring "I-know-this-like-the-back-of-my-hand" combos - the GTR / AS3 or FOX (is it FBM now?) / BL1 or BF1 / KY1 if you really must, over and over and over ad nauseum. Those are the most populated servers (discounting the cruisers) and I can only drive one combo a couple of times in a row before I go totally nuts. So I was logging in, ordering by population and disconnecting again.

The CTRA servers are full 99% of the time (and as a mid-pack finisher my license is taking ages to progress), and any other servers that change track seem to be pretty dead.

It's not the game that's at fault - it's the users. Specifically the people running servers and the egomaniacs who race the same combo all the time because they can't possibly risk a non-podium finish anywhere else.

[Chaos]

+1 for track modding!!

But....

1. New tracks must be approved by a "track board"/lfs team
2. Make them downloadable through LFS so that the user always will have the latest version

The board will make sure that we only get quality tracks. They can/will also integrate them in LFS World. It take time to make quality tracks and approve them so there will not be pouring in tracks. My guess is that there will be a healthy growth of new tracks. I think this will be good for LFS!! :D

+millon for this idea > http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=13688 the results of the poll are clear...

[Polyracer]

I disagree that more choice would cause thinning numbers.

The CTRA servers are full 99% of the time (and as a mid-pack finisher my license is taking ages to progress), and any other servers that change track seem to be pretty dead.

It's not the game that's at fault - it's the users. Specifically the people running servers and the egomaniacs who race the same combo all the time because they can't possibly risk a non-podium finish anywhere else.

So what you are saying is that you want more tracks yeah?,
but if peeps still stick with the tracks that they can win on - why would more tracks etc, improve this situation? :)

[Eldanor]

I would prefer a pay per track system. That could open LFS to real quality tracks, maybe not "nanometer-accurate" as some people want, but real enough to be good. As I said in another thread I've been playing for two years an a half with a game that cost me way less than a night out.

[nihil]

It's not the game that's at fault - it's the users. Specifically the people running servers and the egomaniacs who race the same combo all the time because they can't possibly risk a non-podium finish anywhere else.

This is a good point. I haven't been online for a while, but still enjoy LFS from time to time in single player (sprint courses that I might get around to posting at some time...), so I don't think its the simulation or the cars that would cause any decline (if indeed there is a decline, can't be arsed to check the stats)

I don't have the time to dedicate to a league, but if I was to look for a pick-up race CTRA would be the first stop. My experience of other servers in the past was "oh look, same combination as last time."

The weirdest combos could often prove to be hugely entertaining: UF1 at Westhill? Slow car, fast course? Going to be tedious... Actually no, I had amazingly close and satisfying racing on that combo.

But sadly, most servers don't do weird... And they don't do it because most users don't do weird either. The RAC might as well not exist, and configurations longer than a minute and a bit are as rare as rocking horse shit.

[AndroidXP]

It's not so much the content, but rather the stagnation of improvement in actually "important" areas that makes my interest in LFS slowly fade. I want better tyre simulation, brake heat/fade/wear, realistic setup options, aerodynamics, a proper damage model that finally penalises the current way chicanes are tackled... just, something that eradicates the most blatantly arcade-because-not-yet-implemented (:rolleyes:) areas of LFS.

What do we get? Multibyte character support. Great. Don't get me wrong, it is a great step to make LFS more accessible to Asian countries, but it just gives me the impression that it's not just improving slowly, but not improving at all in areas that truly matter (for me). Actually, I've already accepted and don't expect that we ever see a S3.

But then that's probably just me growing old of computer games in general :shrug:

[danowat]

But sadly, most servers don't do weird... And they don't do it because most users don't do weird either. The RAC might as well not exist, and configurations longer than a minute and a bit are as rare as rocking horse shit.

"Wierd" isn't what the masses want, I have run 3 seasons (around 8 events each) of the RSSC/RSWC, which is FZ5 & RAC, and we have struggled to fill half of the grid in most of the races :shrug:

Bottomline, if you open a server/event with those sorts of combo's people don't want them, so you are left with a server/event with not many people in it.

I dunno what the answer is :shrug:

Simple things, like forced setups, engine damage (realistic), brake fade/damage etc, would make things spicier, but personally, I think too much time is being spent on things that don't improve the overall racing product.

[Hyperactive]

Heh, I have finally trying to get my 'ring time under 8 mins in GPL. I'm that desperate for new tracks :D

Tbh. there is no tire improvement or engine damage patch that would make me come back to racing LFS actively. LFS really needs new content, tracks more than harjuned needs water cooling.

:shrug:

[NotAnIllusion]

"Wierd" isn't what the masses want, I have run 3 seasons (around 8 events each) of the RSSC/RSWC, which is FZ5 & RAC, and we have struggled to fill half of the grid in most of the races :shrug:

Bottomline, if you open a server/event with those sorts of combo's people don't want them, so you are left with a server/event with not many people in it.
Tracks don't really bother me, but I find the FZ5 a pig to drive, and the RAC far worse. It's hard to enjoy racing when most of my energy goes into keeping the car pointing in the right direction even on a straight.

[danowat]

Tracks don't really bother me, but I find the FZ5 a pig to drive, and the RAC far worse. It's hard to enjoy racing when most of my energy goes into keeping the car pointing in the right direction even on a straight.

Either you are driving it wrong, or you are using a duff setup, because all of the drivers in RSWC have really, really good racing with both cars, they are both really stable and good to race once you have a good setup and get into the correct mindset.

Your attitude to those cars is indicative of one of the reasons why people don't drive them, simply because they don't "flatter" the driver the way other cars do, and take a bit of time and effort to get into the correct mindset.

[axus]

It's not so much the content, but rather the stagnation of improvement in actually "important" areas that makes my interest in LFS slowly fade. I want better tyre simulation, brake heat/fade/wear, realistic setup options, aerodynamics, a proper damage model that finally penalises the current way chicanes are tackled... just, something that eradicates the most blatantly arcade-because-not-yet-implemented (:rolleyes:) areas of LFS.

What do we get? Multibyte character support. Great. Don't get me wrong, it is a great step to make LFS more accessible to Asian countries, but it just gives me the impression that it's not just improving slowly, but not improving at all in areas that truly matter (for me). Actually, I've already accepted and don't expect that we ever see a S3.

But then that's probably just me growing old of computer games in general :shrug:

As harsh as that is, I totally agree. I'm getting bored with having to put up with driving a locked diff setup to be competetive... of having to circumvent the track layout... of getting that this-doesn't-feel-quite-right feeling every time the car starts breaking into a slide... of only having tyre temps and wear to worry about in a long race... of having a bahzillion setup options on cars that shouldn't really be there for everything... of not having separate slow and fast dampers for the GTR cars etc. The list goes on.

And what bothers me the most is that all us "die-hard" LFS fans (and I consider myself to be one of them... or at least have been, I don't know if that's fading now) kept looking to the next physics patch when things were going slowly last year and the year before. Whenever someone criticised LFS for lack of progress we'd say this is all preparation for a big physics push where all the right things will get revamped and LFS will really revolutionise sims.

And then we got gearbox improvements and clutch heat. And then some AI stuff except you still can't race with the AI. I don't mean to sound ungreatful because it *is* an improvement. I just can't help it feel that the time could have been better spent on tyres and aerodynamics. The gearbox stuff is barely noticable most of the time! And suddenly I find myself looking back to when the last good physics patch was and that's nearly two years ago now. And I look forward to when the next physics patch will be and I see that there's a good chance that it will only be here around the end of the year. The only thing that could restore my faith is a BIG (ie. it should take 4 months at least) physics only patch or two consecutive smaller ones affecting the right areas before the year is out.

"Boohoo, the hotlaps have to get deleted!" - so what? It's Alpha software. The hotlappers can deal with it. And it's not like it will split the community now. We have automatic updates.

EDIT: Just saw Hyperactive's post too. That's to a certain extent true too, it's not all about the system but the content too. A lot of the content isn't exactly great. I think LFS has gotten itself into a mess by not doing things right *the first time* but rather going back and improving them so very few things are "finished". :(

[JamesF1]

...
Couldn't have said it better. End of.

[NotAnIllusion]

Your attitude to those cars is indicative of one of the reasons why people don't drive them, simply because they [...] take a bit of time and effort
It's taken me months (literally) to learn to push cars like the LX6 and XRR. The time and effort I've invested into them despite at times feeling completely defeated I feel excludes me from the cba to try crowd.

Btw, I think the RAC has great potential to "flatter", but perhaps in a future patch for me.

[JO53PHS]

I know that multibyte character support of whatever will bring in a few more people from other countries, but I'm sure that another step towards realism or new cars / tracks will bring in far more people :shrug:

Actually, we better stop moaning because this is turning into a Scavier bashing thread, and soon we will have to pay for patches

[Gentlefoot]

I'm not convinced a lack of track or car variations is the problem here. I think Dan is touching on the real issue. But it is totally natural for any LFS player to have a 'playing lifecycle' if you like. And players will join, play and stop playing again and the period in which that happens will vary depending on the individual.

There are over 900 combos to choose from although I do accept that some of them are very similar to each other.

The quality of the race experience is LFS is second to none in my opinion and while the crash detection physics are still well off and ofcourse a bit of lag thrown in exacerbates these, the physics and effects of setup changes are excellent. So it is these elements of LFS that you must have people see for it to be successful. And it must be targeted towards those individuals most likely to appreciate these elements.

One problem is that you need to have played LFS for a significant period to start to tune in to the physics and really appreciate them and the race experience.

But I don't think these great elements of LFS come across in the first impression that LFS leaves on a new player. I think this means many newbies turn away from LFS pretty quickly because the sound and graphics don't appear to be as good as some other sims at first glance. I think this is another element of the problem.

But I believe the biggest issue of all is simply awareness. I am not exagerating at all when I say I have never met anyone else who has ever discovered LFS independently of me. My mate showed it to me two and a half years ago and had it not been for him I would have never known about it.

Sure, you may find the odd dude on Piston Heads who has played it but as for the general population of the UK, no one even knows it exists. Not sure what the case is in Germany, France Holland etc.

Ofcouse Scavier doesn't have the resouces of a Sony or an EA Sports to promote this game but it still feels like the general awareness of LFS is simply too small to generate the online numbers required to maintain a decent public racing experience. And as that is what LFS is all about I think more thought and gyle need to be applied to activities that raise awareness.

So I guess what I'm saying is that you have to accept that players come and go. The most successful online racing sim will be the one that lengthens each 'player lifecycle' the most (which I believe LFS already does) and also promotes most effectively to groups of individuals who will most likely appreciate the elements of LFS that we all know to be so good.

I'd love to see LFS promoted at Trackdays or Motor Shows for example.

[danowat]

Thats all well and good, but the dev team have stated numerous times that they wouldn't actively advertise LFS untill it was finished, so don't hold your breath on that one......

[tonyonparas]

Well I´ve been flying in fs2004 for about 2 weeks now, and haven´t even touched the LFS shortcut for a while.

This because it´s good time for flying now at winter when u can´t do anything else cos here isn´t even snow so it´s very hard to do any wintersports.
And I think that this is familiar for other player also: You CAN be bored on LFS. It happens in regular cycle.
U play LFS 2 months; u get fed up with it and play something else for a month. Then LFS feels kind of new and fresh cos u have played something else lately.

Well at least thats how it goes for me:shrug:

[ajp71]

Normally there would be Redline Racing or a CTRA server but everywhere is deserted.


Most of the frequent forum posters have recently been banned from Redline because we dared to criticise certain elements of its management. The bannings and loss of credibility have led to a decline in the Redline servers. The only decent place to race the single seaters now is the CTRA servers, which have a full FBM server but don't have a straight FOX server, IMO the Formula Junior thing should be scrapped and it should just be left as a straight FOX server which might encourage interest.

[xaotik]

What do we get? Multibyte character support. Great. Don't get me wrong, it is a great step to make LFS more accessible to Asian countries, but it just gives me the impression that it's not just improving slowly, but not improving at all in areas that truly matter (for me). Actually, I've already accepted and don't expect that we ever see a S3.

Well get organized and do as any decent syndicate would do - go on a game-wide strike, get a few decent slogans down on some skins and probably even do a virtual march (or roll if you prefer).

[Gentlefoot]

Thats all well and good, but the dev team have stated numerous times that they wouldn't actively advertise LFS untill it was finished, so don't hold your breath on that one......

I was thinking more of the devs finding ways of encouraging promotional activity rather than doing it directly themselves. Commission schemes or whatever. Get the community to do the work for them.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Hate to sound like a broken record with my opinion (for those that know it)

Basically this game is "old" people are bored with content (those that have been around for 3-4 years or more) , people move on and come back now and again to see whats happening , statiscally the game is doing "ok" turnover of new racers/old.
What disturbs me is how the Devs have let things like cruise servers (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=36359&highlight=cruise) stay part of this RACING SIMULATOR

Problem is you guys ike nothing more then to bitch and whinge. (i am also guilty see above ^ & below)

The problem, the majority of these issues (imo) are the amount of useless servers (http://http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=8142&highlight=licence+servers) (although "some people" will argue that everyone has a right to host). Also that none (read majority of admins+racers ) of you are willing to sit on a server to get it populated, back in "the old days" i know some of the long serving members/racers of this community would be on a server for hours, watching like a hawk. Also you have insim coder wannabe's creating this problem with cruise (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=34331&highlight=cruise) servers and other things that run a bit deeper like CTRA (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=37569) midly affecting (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=36288&highlight=licence+servers) the breeding ground of the comunity.
Im sick of people thinking its a decline in users, although some forms of racing are sufferung very badly. Its a shift of focus .. nothing more, nothing less imo.

Live for Speed
What ever happened to that ?
Live to Cruise & drift (and race when you can find it eh)

[danowat]

I was thinking more of the devs finding ways of encouraging promotional activity rather than doing it directly themselves. Commission schemes or whatever. Get the community to do the work for them.

The community already do a bang up job of advertising the sim, pretty much the only people that do...........

[HVS5b]

"Wierd" isn't what the masses want, I have run 3 seasons (around 8 events each) of the RSSC/RSWC, which is FZ5 & RAC, and we have struggled to fill half of the grid in most of the races :shrug:

Bottomline, if you open a server/event with those sorts of combo's people don't want them, so you are left with a server/event with not many people in it.

I dunno what the answer is :shrug:


Yes, but not everybody wants to or is able to commit to league racing.
It's a totally different ball game to pick-ups.

I've only been playing a year and a bit so am just getting around to trying the LRF cars, which is proving to be a proper challenge!

The flavour of the provious posts have been spot on imo, it's more tracks we need. Not variations or RL tracks, not more cars,just give us 3 new environments and tart up FB & WE :thumb: Jobs a good 'un :D

Physics I can wait for, the way they are just now doesn't leave me feeling "OMG THIS IS ALL WRONG!!" :shrug:

Surely the attendances are a bit cylical in nature anyway? I mean, after a dark, sh!tty January maybe folks raced quite a bit and are now racing less?

[Gentlefoot]

Yes, but not everybody wants to or is able to commit to league racing.
It's a totally different ball game to pick-ups.

I've only been playing a year and a bit so am just getting around to trying the LRF cars, which is proving to be a proper challenge!

The flavour of the provious posts have been spot on imo, it's more tracks we need. Not variations or RL tracks, not more cars,just give us 3 new environments and tart up FB & WE :thumb: Jobs a good 'un :D

Physics I can wait for, the way they are just now doesn't leave me feeling "OMG THIS IS ALL WRONG!!" :shrug:

Surely the attendances are a bit cylical in nature anyway? I mean, after a dark, sh!tty January maybe folks raced quite a bit and are now racing less?

All that adding another track or car will do is create a short time spike in online numbers. We see the same thing every time a patch is released. It doesn't help over the long term at all.

[March Hare]

Well I for one am going to go increase the amount of online racers.
Want to join me on CTRA Race 2?

[migf1]

I have to admit that after almost 2 years I've also started loosing a bit of my interest on LFS. Not badly, though!

For me, RL tracks would dramatically boost my interest (secondly physics, thirdly sound and then graphics). I'm not entitled to dictate in which way they should enter the LFS world, but I honestly believe a whole new LFS era would start if RL tracks make their way into the game.

Just my 2 c

[HVS5b]

Well I for one am going to go increase the amount of online racers.
Want to join me on CTRA Race 2?

I'd love to. If it wasn't for this damned inconvenience called work :banghead:

[axus]

Well get organized and do as any decent syndicate would do - go on a game-wide strike, get a few decent slogans down on some skins and probably even do a virtual march (or roll if you prefer).

That really isn't the right attitude to a problem. There clearly *is* a problem when this many "die hards" are complaining. :shrug:

[Eldanor]

For me, RL tracks would dramatically boost my interest (secondly physics, thirdly sound and then graphics). I'm not entitled to dictate in which way they should enter the LFS world, but I honestly believe a whole new LFS era would start if RL tracks make their way into the game.

I agree, but people would start complaining about how that pothole in the outside of the 4th bend should be 3cm deeper.

I mean, come on, LFS is not the McLaren simulator! and it will never be (at least if you want it to run on a normal PC) do we really need millimeter accurate tracks to have fun?

If you have 100% physics accuracy, the you can go and ask for 100% accurate terrain, but if physics are not "millimeter" accurate, what's the point of worrying about how many millimeters should have the kerb of Spa's "Bus stop"?

There are enough info available to create pretty accurate tracks without using iRacing laser gadget, and they can prove tons of fun, having great physics is great, but we are all motor sport fans, we love those legendary tracks, we've dreamed of driving in them, and I think that's why we are into simulators.

Just another 2c

PS: Someone said this could end in a Scavier bashing thread. Well, I think we can perfectly discuss these topics without meaning "You devs suck", it's just opinions, not orders or bashings. If we didn't like LFS we wouldn't be here for sure.

[mkinnov8]

Id say it was just normal really.. Personally, I dont race LFS as much as I used to.

I practice for the two current leagues Im competing in, and drive their races obviously, other than that, I have more entertaining things to do at the moment.

[KSheppard]

as for QUALITY RL tracks, there are tons out there that can be converted & I know a number of very talented track makers that can do the level of work consistant with LFS.

[The Very End]

I can`t understand why people want a real life track. Screw that, any kind of track is good. The current tracks in game are good, and if we would have anything new that is on that level I would be more than enough happy with that. But I guess people belives that they get bigger cocks if they can drive a RL track fast in LFS :shrug:

To quote something :

DAMN YOU ALL!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

[mrodgers]

As said above, any kind of global approval team will discourage people from working on making new tracks: it takes time, effort and you don't want to waste it all if the "approval team" doesn't like your track.
This can be looked at as a good thing as well. Not everyone is capable of creating an excellent track. If you look at other sims, most who are creating tracks make horrible tracks. If the track modder does high quality work, and he will know he does high quality work, he will know his track would be approved and he will pt the time and effort in. I wouldn't want the sub-par "look at me, I made a track" modders creating content for LFS.

The downside is, everyone seems to want real tracks (looking at the last 4 years worth of this topic of content). If there was an approval system sanctioned by LFS in any way, the real tracks fly right out the window because of the licensing issue.

I do find it very humorous again about some of the folks over the years who complain about modding and not being able to create real tracks for LFS. They are the same people who jump all over crackers, skin stealing, and spout about copyright of skins and such. Yet, they find it perfectly ok to copy real tracks, tracks that are someone elses' intellectual property just as your personal skin design is your own intellectual property. They jump all over the torrent site that copied the LFS logo, yet have no problem with copying a track without acquiring the proper licensing to copy it....

[XCNuse]

I dunno about everyone elsebut the reason I haven't been on to often is because midterms are coming up next week, and myinternet has been sucking it up in the dorms and have to write this to you via my iPod. :shrug:

[KSheppard]

for me anyway driving a RL track enhances my enjoyment of watching a race on tv, when they say that's a hard corner combination I KNOW what they are getting at, or when I hear that Schuey takes eau rouge flat out I really know how hard that is to get right time & again

[Gil07]

I can`t understand why people want a real life track. Screw that, any kind of track is good. The current tracks in game are good, and if we would have anything new that is on that level I would be more than enough happy with that. But I guess people belives that they get bigger cocks if they can drive a RL track fast in LFS :shrug:

To quote something :

DAMN YOU ALL!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

Completely agreed.

I don't do pick-up racing too much these times, practising for leagues and doing those leagues is much more fun in my opinion.

[migf1]

As far as it concerns me, RL tracks play major role in what is called "immersion" (gfx and sound help too). Also, RL tracks will open a door to the outside world for LFS, where everybody else (and especially motorsport entusiasts) have a common code of communication (point of reference or whatever other expression comes in your mind for that matter).

Actually if you really think of it, RL tracks would do more good than harm to LFS, in almost all directions. It's up to the devs firstly and the community secondly not to misuse them.

As I have already said, I'm not entitled to dictate what's the best way of bringing RL tracks into LFS. But I'm entitled to express politely a healthy opinion about the sim I like most, whithout having people responding (even indirectly) with references to my... cock :shrug:

[danowat]

They had the chance to add a RL track to LFS, but choose not too.

[Vain]

Personally, outside of the leagues we organise, and practicing for IGTC, I am finding it tough to get the motivation to race, I reckon in the last 3 months I have played "public" racing for probably less than 3 hours.

The combo's are boring, the physics engine still has the same flaws, the graphics are looking dated, the only thing that keeps me playing LFS at all is the people that play it, and the racing that can be found by playing these people, if that wasn't there, I would have moved away from LFS completely a while ago.

TBH, I am getting more FUN by picking up and playing Forza 2 for an hour, than I do picking up and playing public LFS racing, sad but true........Quoted for truth.
I haven't driven LFS outside of event-preparation for over a year now.

Vain

[Chaos]

They had the chance to add a RL track to LFS, but choose not too.
i would say tracks ... when I worked at the second largest racetrack in our country, told the owners about LFS and what was their oppinion on having their track in LFS, they were all for it and the only condition they had, was that the track must be done accurately, with all banners etc., they did not even want some money for the "track license" ... that's more than two years ago...
The same with real car manufacturer... I asked at Skoda Auto, they understood that it was more advertisement for them then the other way around... but in both cases the devs said maybe sometime in the future... some time passed and nothing... so I gave up on this...

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Maybe the devs do need a kick up the backside now and again, maybe they dont :shrug:
Speaking for myself again, i need constant motivation from external influences.
What i was speaking about eariler wasnt "dev bashing", just to re-ittereate the essence of the meaning of "live for speed" form the perspctive i have.

Axus to follow on from your point/
There was constant exitement, anticipation "back in the days"
Thats half the problem i think its just as much "fun" or as "serious" as it has always been. The problem its harder to find it, for pickup races.
Why , simple we have an influx of this "its ok its just a bit of fun" attitude when it comes to servers. We already had an issue of empty servers with a few regular names that servered the community very well.
Then along came RedlineRacing and CTRA and the onlsaught of insim mods (not that i think they dont deserve to do what they do some of the apps are fantastic)
What im merely saying that this small community has been fractured to even smaller groups over the last 2 years or so.
The amount of ignorance by those who claim to be in it for the game, is laughable sometimes. I think some people have their own agendas when commenting on issues regarding the userbase of LFS.

[Linsen]

Meanwhile, somewhere in Bedorf, MA...

Dave: Hey John, come here, have a look at this thread...

John: Damn, have we got it right, Davieboy, or have we?

Dave: We sure have, Johnnybaby, we sure have. Gimme Five!

(they give eachother a High-Five)

Dave: About the pricing, though...

John: Don't worry, they'll pay, they'll pay...

(John off in sardonic laughter)

[Gnomie]

Well I for one am going to go increase the amount of online racers.
Want to join me on CTRA Race 2?
Sure! :) I'll be there in about three hours. Got some stuff that needs doing first. :thumb:

On topic: as a n00b, I can't see myself getting tired of the content of the game as it is now for at least a couple of years. There are so many cars to learn, so many tracks.. but I can defnitely see that for the veterans, a new track would be nice. However, I think that if the devs have to choose between new tracks and physics improvements, I think they should definitely go with the latter, because it will benefit everyone in the community. The veterans will have to learn the game again (kind of), bringing it extra longevity for them, and the n00bs will find the game even more appealing than it already is.

[Hyperactive]

Meanwhile, somewhere in Bedorf, MA...

Dave: Hey John, come here, have a look at this thread...

John: Damn, have we got it right, Davieboy, or have we?

Dave: We sure have, Johnnybaby, we sure have. Gimme Five!

(they give eachother a High-Five)

Dave: About the pricing, though...

John: Don't worry, they'll pay, they'll pay...

(John off in sardonic laughter)

harhar?

Would have been slightly funny if it was kunos instead of davey. Bono tutti nkpro, Haa Haa HAAh!:thumb:

(what ever it means)

[DeadWolfBones]

I mostly agree with Gentlefoot and tonyonparas here...

I don't think the issue is with tracks or cars or even with the game's physics. I think LFS is still, by far, the most complete racing experience on the table, and I think that until that's no longer true, the fluctuations we have in online numbers (which, as those graphs pointed out earlier, are minor) are due entirely to driver exhaustion. Everyone I know well in the LFS community goes through a cycle where they get really into LFS for a few months to a year and then have a few month period where they simply have no interest in touching the game. They just get burned out.

I think that the S2 community in general is also moving (collectively) more toward league or at least systematized racing (i.e. CTRA), which means that the well-populated pickup servers of the past are sort of dinosaurs. Personally, until I started racing CTRA SS1/2 again in the last couple weeks, I had done basically zero pickup racing in the past year. I drive in 2-3 leagues and admin 2-3 more on a pretty consistent basis, which leaves very little time/motivation to just pick up and drive. Most of the time I'm practicing with my team for the next league event.

I think that there is some general exhaustion with the "same old same old," but I also think that we'll all (or most of us) continue driving it until there's a more viable alternative (and maybe even past that point, given the loyalty many of us have to the sim).

:shrug:

[fujiwara]

I was about to post a new thead about the way this forum is heading, excuse me, but there's too much trash topics everywhere, and besides lfs, i also lost interest in the forum too.

The lack of new content is one of the reasons people are stop playing, there is a new car and track, altough the track is only a variant of something everyone has already drived.

The other reason is probably the realism, probably people don't find amusing to drive a few pickup races everyday and having a lot of problems derived from engine, clutch problems, lack of helps, but there's no way to escape from the realism lfs is turning to.

[Ikaponthus]

It's not so much the content, but rather the stagnation of improvement in actually "important" areas that makes my interest in LFS slowly fade. I want better tyre simulation, brake heat/fade/wear, realistic setup options, aerodynamics, a proper damage model that finally penalises the current way chicanes are tackled... just, something that eradicates the most blatantly arcade-because-not-yet-implemented (:rolleyes:) areas of LFS.

What do we get? Multibyte character support. Great. Don't get me wrong, it is a great step to make LFS more accessible to Asian countries, but it just gives me the impression that it's not just improving slowly, but not improving at all in areas that truly matter (for me). Actually, I've already accepted and don't expect that we ever see a S3.

But then that's probably just me growing old of computer games in general :shrug:

My guess is that this is spot on.

I highly, highly doubt that dwindling interest would be due to lack of tracks.

[The Moose]

I highly, highly doubt that dwindling interest would be due to lack of tracks.

Well it certainly is a factor. Having spoken to many people about why they are getting bored with LFS they all say the same thing...content, specifically lack of tracks.

[kieran20]

I'm quite happy to put up with the inferior physics of rfactor, to get access to the greater range of tracks.

Rfactor physics are not inferior. download the realfeel plug in and welcome to a whole new dimension of rfactor. ive been talking to many other lfs players on another forum who have discovered rfactors ture potential just by installing this plug in, who now say they prefer rfactor. dont get locked up in the same world as all the others, rfactor, as well as lfs is a great sim that should not be doubted.

[kieran20]

I can`t understand why people want a real life track. Screw that, any kind of track is good. The current tracks in game are good, and if we would have anything new that is on that level I would be more than enough happy with that. But I guess people belives that they get bigger cocks if they can drive a RL track fast in LFS :shrug:

To quote something :

DAMN YOU ALL!! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

or maybe they would like to try out some of the best circuits in the world like spa and brands hatch?! the fantasy tracks in lfs are good, but i think you will find that the game will benefit much better if some RL tracks as well as cars were included.

the formula BMW has basically killed the FOX and the fox is a quicker car, and easy to drive, probably purely because its a real life machine.

[Gil07]

the formula BMW has basically killed the FOX and the fox is a quicker car, and easy to drive, probably purely because its a new machine.

There, corrected for you.

[Nobo]

Another major problem imo is made by the LFS-Community itself and is not down to not enough content.

The variety of leagues, teams, servers, cruising servers, driftign servers is increasing more and more, while the active player base stays more or less the same. That cant work if most of us like racing with others instead of racing/cruising on our own! :shrug:

Ok everyone wants to have his own prestigous project, server or league. But does it really bring the community forward if we have dozens or hundreds of empty or tiny populated leagues and servers!?

This is directed to all league admins and server owners. Bundling of power on less projects instead of big variety can be sometimes better.

[Rooble]

I only really play LFS now because of the MoE and the commitment I've made to my team, I think for me LFS just needs new vehicles because I'm pretty happy with the number of tracks we have at the moment.

Whenever I find myself playing rFactor or any other sim, I always go for the same track (Nürburgring/Nordschleife) and usually have a different car/mod loaded, so for me LFS would need at least two more cars to keep me occupied for another 4 months.

I'd like to see more road going cars, powerful saloons and such, I think we have a good amount of other cars but high performance saloon type cars is what we need :D


Ciao.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Agreed DWB, i found that with my experience with dSRC, people got worn out or RL commitments take precident, as they should (good job i dont have this thing people call RL)

Im confident in saying that along with my old team [dSRC] and the other leading teams back in 2004-2006 there was some of the finest racing and admining of servers.
What i do notice also as mentioned somewhere in another post (i think) Is the level and quality of administration, has dropped considerably on public racing servers. This itself has impact just as great as the progress you mention DWB.
Now back to the point of "burning out" I see it all the time with the veterans of this game and a few others, some are more resiliant to others, to the fact that the "same old" is all that they are doing.
But this"same old "is damn fine, when it clicks, the full grid, pushing your belief in your own ability and limits of the simulated car/track :D
CTRA has helped and also been a hinderence, i do have an issue with the toying of mixed vehicle class grids. But i can also understand they need to get it populated to sustain its popularity.
But it hard to keep yourself interested in somthing for a long period of time no matter what it may be, to quote a freind in recent chat.

"
I kinda realised how I'm feeling towards LFS and the feeling gets stronger all of the time.
You know the feeling when you've played some game trough and beated up the final boss? Like you've beaten the game and there's nothing intresting to back for it anymore

"

What happens when this is how you feel ? Blame the devs ? Blame the forums ? Blame the game ? Take a break ?

I dont know the perfect awnser for everyone, but to move on and forwards sometimes you have to forgive,forget and most importantly
accept things for how they are. Im not saying you should lie down and die, or believe everything you read or see. But to focus on the positive rather then the negative, take the good from that bad. Hard i know, but nothing is really easy, when nothing works.

[Ian.H]

My guess is that this is spot on.

I highly, highly doubt that dwindling interest would be due to lack of tracks.

It's definitely one of the main reasons for me, along with FPS all but non-existent now in patch Y due to things just being fscked now. There's quite a variety of cars available, but to be blunt, apart from BL1, the rest of the tracks in LFS are shit.. with endless, recycled "variations" of existing tracks. As I've said before, it's nothing but lazy development.

I agree with Android too. I'll never see S3, not in my life-time.. I'll be lucky to see S2 in a final state.

All this crap with [racist language removed] languages being added, what happened to the _real_ development that's needed? Tbh, it almost seems like Scawen has become as bored with LFS as many of the (old skool) players whereas he seems to be picking and choosing the simplest / smallest tasks to get on with so there's no long-term commitment required for a particular task (been there, done that too, but I wasn't charging for my work).

Cockpits put back because Eric can't manage to model a Formula BMW car within 2 years.. AI put back because some other bullshit was apparently "needed" to be added for patch Y... it's just one excuse after another now, IMO.

A shame.. LFS could have really been something, right now, it holds about as much excitement as visiting the dentist for a root canal and I don't see this changing anytime within the next 3 years at least :shrug:



Regards,

Ian

[duke_toaster]

More content would help.

Out and out rFactor style mod anarchy doesn't work. I don't want to be wading through a quagmire of steaming shite just to have a race.

What would help is where, if a member in good standing of the community could make a good fictional car model + textures + a good idea of the physics (and the same sort of stuff for a good fictional track, or a street circuit based on real roads but isn't an actual street circuit) it would get put in.

It would also add what the community wants. LMPs? If someone wants it, they'll make something for it. FFord? If enough people want it, someone will want it.

The only thing that IMO should be not done is publicising stuff before it gets put in, it will just cause bitching if a popular piece of turd is told to shove off.

More content, but the devs would have control. Whilst real life stuff couldn't be done that way, it would cause - about - a two cars every three months or something? I wouldn't really call it modding, more community content integration.

[Ian.H]

[ snip ]

More content, but the devs would have control. Whilst real life stuff couldn't be done that way, it would cause - about - a two cars every three months or something? I wouldn't really call it modding, more community content integration.

Not if they work at the same speed as Eric. 2 cars would require at least 4 years development time ;)



Regards,

Ian

[Rappa Z]

What's been killing me is the fact that the only servers that have more than 18 people for most of the day are Conedodgers, cruise servers, or drift servers. Its sad that the servers that are remotely interesting barely ever get more than 15 people in them. The stupid same combos are always being raced. Usually only one hour a day.

It's sad to see the way LFS is going. Good ol' racing is going down the drain and insim games are beginning to run away with the racing population. I wish i coulda been around for when it was all good racing.:(

[duke_toaster]

Not if they work at the same speed as Eric. 2 cars would require at least 4 years development time ;)

Regards,

Ian

But we don't know what Eric's doing. He could be stockpiling content for S3. He could be working on something major. You never know, he might be moonlighting as a particular Mr Gordon Brown.

And if someone really to 2 years to make a car, and there were 18 teams and they started at intervals, there would be 2 cars every three months :P

[NotAnIllusion]

If the content was really there, ready and available, why (afaik cockpits would not interfere with physics? even then we just got a major patch) not include it? Also, LFS is still officially in alpha, releasing content to use would be beneficial to testing.

[DeadWolfBones]

Ian.H... still as much of a whinger as ever.

The recent patches have brought major physics improvements... seems kind of silly to say that Scawen seems bored with LFS because in the aftermath of a major patch he decided to clean up LFS's language selection. :shrug:

[wien]

I see a lot of reasoning to find the cause of "the problem" here, but I'm just not convinced there is one. According to the cold hard data, online numbers are as high as they have ever been. There is no drop off in player numbers other than the standard post-patch drop. There's 1500 players online most nights. That's a huge number! Way above what it was just a couple of years ago.

What this seems to come down to is a lot of old timers getting bored with LFS, but honestly what did you expect? After driving more or less the same sim for year and years it's bound to get old. I feel the exact same way. Clocking in hours doing the same thing every week for years is going to become routine. You need better races to get the same "high" you did in the early days. Standard human behaviour.

More frequent updates and more tracks might help keep it fresh for a while, but it's not content that makes people come back for more. It's the races. Pushing yourself racing against others. Once that gets stale, maybe it's time to take a break and do something else for a while? LFS will still be around when you get the motivation back.

[Ian.H]

Ian.H... still as much of a whinger as ever.

The recent patches have brought major physics improvements... seems kind of silly to say that Scawen seems bored with LFS because in the aftermath of a major patch he decided to clean up LFS's language selection. :shrug:

No point in having soopadoopa physics updates if the physics engine is so badly optimised that my FPS is down nearly to single figures ;) with shitty hacks to try and hide the fact.

A major patch, with half of the things missing.. making it more of a minor patch. Obviously Scawen has no intention of fixing things in a decent order, just picks and chooses as he sees fit (else the damage model for example would have been resolved (or at least reworked) 18 months+ ago).. same for the AI.. 2 fscking years for that and it's _still_ incomplete.. but hey, [racist language removed] chars are much more important to game play :rolleyes:

Eric just needs sacking for his joke (time-wise) contributions.


Wein.. I kind of agree with you, except, I already took 2 years out away from LFS to get into rF modding (subsequently stopped using that PoS too).. almost sweet FA had changed in those 2 years in LFS. Not really encouraging to have a positive outlook on LFS' future :shrug:

LFS is _seriously_ lacking interesting tracks (note: I didn't say real, couldn't care less if there's real or fictional tracks available, fictional please, if I have a choice over the matter). Sure, it's also _partly_ the people.. but even with the team I started 4 years ago and the great bunch of lads and lasses that they are.. LFS still bores me shitless, even if the entire team was on the server at the same time.

LFS has now become way too stagnant and it'll need something really special IMO to revive it.. and no, adding 20' of new tarmac to Westhill and calling it 'Westhill International Long' simply won't cut it. A polished turd is still a turd.



Regards,

Ian

[DieKolkrabe]

Ian. If you don't like LFS. Leave. Why do you still come on the forums and servers, if, as you say, your FPS is down to single-digit figures? And why are you constantly bitching about everything. Come on, have a cup of tea...it'll cheer you up.

Simple as.

You try doing what Scavier are doing, and see if you can achieve what they've done?

Somehow, I doubt it.

/me thinks this thread needs locking and some members need a talking to.

DK

[The Moose]

According to the cold hard data, online numbers are as high as they have ever been. There is no drop off in player numbers other than the standard post-patch drop.

But its obvious that more and more of the newcomers are cruising and drifting.

The number of online racers (what this thread is all about) is definitely lower.

[theirishnoob]

i do agree with ian but tbh , lfs has enough things to update let alone make new addtions before even thinking about new cars track etc.


Hence why ill just wait till a new version comes out.

[DieKolkrabe]

+1 to that Ben

I agree with the Moose, but why not try to convert the drifters/draggers/cruisers to racers, or classify them as racers? That's one way of looking at the problem, surely?

DK

[mcgas001]

+1 to that Ben

I agree with the Moose, but why not try to convert the drifters/draggers/cruisers to racers, or classify them as racers? That's one way of looking at the problem, surely?

DK

... not fixing

[Boris Lozac]

Gotta agree about some things with Ian, except i don't agree that AI should have been finished long time ago, it should NEVER be worked at AT ALL.. Really, if people really play this kind of games with the AI than this is not the right "game" for them.. :shrug: And after all that time spent working on them, they are still dumm as they were before, they still have no idea that you are beside them and that's the major thing if you want to have a working AI..

[Ian.H]

Ian. If you don't like LFS. Leave. Why do you still come on the forums and servers, if, as you say, your FPS is down to single-digit figures? And why are you constantly bitching about everything. Come on, have a cup of tea...it'll cheer you up.

Simple as.

Because I'd still like to enjoy LFS. It has got its merits, but the incrementation of those merits is slowing down further and further with each patch. Some things were good in the new patch (clutch is a welcomed addition.. I just need 3 pedals now) but now cars drop out of the physics engine and turn themselves off to try and recoup some resources. No car I've ever driven does this.. so a big step backwards IMO for realism.

You try doing what Scavier are doing, and see if you can achieve what they've done?

Somehow, I doubt it.

I've never said I could, infact, quite the contrary.. but then again, I'm not claiming I can, am I? Whereas selling your product means you do.

I'm sure a lot of it isn't easy and I do respect Scawen for what he's achieved.. but I don't have to like every aspect of LFS or the development of it.. and now you're telling me I can't voice an opinion :shrug:



Regards,

Ian

[mrodgers]

No point in having soopadoopa physics updates if the physics engine is so badly optimised that my FPS is down nearly to single figures ;) with shitty hacks to try and hide the fact.
Now that is clear proof that he is talking out of his behind. I haven't seen single figure framerates since trying the S2 demo in 2005 with a Celeron 667 MHz.

I have a 3 year old off-the-shelf system that wasn't the greatest when I got it, and has only been upgraded from onboard video to an ATI 1650. I lock it at 45 FPS and unlocked it runs between 60-80 FPS. You can't expect a game to run today on a 75 MHz computer. It's time to upgrade there, Ian...

[ACCAkut]

Atm it looks like Scawen tries to gain ground in Asia, we don't know what Eric has done the past years except Bf1, FBM and two configurations (SO Chicane and AS North(?)), Victor is fiddling with both Forum and LFSWorld.

I suspect, that 1. they are working on big stuff in the background like new graphics, tracks and completly new things for a major release, may it be S2 Final or even S3.
2. they are somehow trapped in details about current LFS, taking their independent working style a bit too serious



:shrug:

[DieKolkrabe]

Ian, I'm not saying you can't voice an opinion, just that you don't need to go flaming everything you don't agree with.

You say LFS is slowing down with each patch? Get a new computer/upgrade your current one/turn down LFS's settings.

You respect Scawen? It seems a strange sort of respect when you go around whining about things not being complete, doesn't it?

DK

[niall09]

I wouldn't mind to see one of the Devs reaction about this, or even an update on the development. It would be interesting to see. :shrug:

[Ian.H]

Gotta agree about some things with Ian, except i don't agree that AI should have been finished long time ago, it should NEVER be worked at AT ALL.. Really, if people really play this kind of games with the AI than this is not the right "game" for them.. :shrug: And after all that time spent working on them, they are still dumm as they were before, they still have no idea that you are beside them and that's the major thing if you want to have a working AI..

Sometimes I just fancy a "quick blast".. or simply prefer endurance style racing (but preferably in road-going cars like the XRT etc).. a lot of pickup races are way too short to be of much interest when looking for the racing aspect.

Me aside, my littlen loves LFS. He's not quite at the stage yet of being able to be let loose on public servers and guarantee not to piss someone off due to mistakes.. thus the AI are all important to him. The additional speed was great, but as you say, that's pointless if they still have zero awareness of you on the track.

The only positive I do have about the AI is I remember what it was like back in S1 days, so I do have faith in Scawen in getting this right (whereas ISI for example, don't have the foggiest).. just not sure my bones will be able to function correctly by the time it's actually finished.

Too many things in LFS are half done. Yeah I know it still proudly (for some reason) wears its 'alpha' tag.. but there seems to be almost nothing that's even close to becoming final.. just tiny amounts of lots of features thus making some / a lot of them entirely useless.



Regards,

Ian

[wien]

I suspect, that 1. they are working on big stuff in the background like new graphics, tracks and completly new things for a major release, may it be S2 Final or even S3.Doubtful. Scawen once said in a test patch thread that he has no code waiting to be released on his end. I'm sure he has done some experiments here and there, but basically what you see is what he has done. I'm sure Eric has some stuff waiting to be released (interiors at least), but I don't think Scawen has.

[Ian.H]

Now that is clear proof that he is talking out of his behind. I haven't seen single figure framerates since trying the S2 demo in 2005 with a Celeron 667 MHz.

I have a 3 year old off-the-shelf system that wasn't the greatest when I got it, and has only been upgraded from onboard video to an ATI 1650. I lock it at 45 FPS and unlocked it runs between 60-80 FPS. You can't expect a game to run today on a 75 MHz computer. It's time to upgrade there, Ian...

I do need an upgrade.. I have an AMD3000+, 1Gb RAM and a FX5900XT gfx card.. but within 1 foul swoop (between X and Y).. there's been such a massive change in FPS it's laughable.. especially when I get far higher FPS in rF, which looks a lot better in the gfx dept (and I only run that in DX8 so it's kind of comparable with LFS in that area).



Regards,

Ian

[Ian.H]

Ian, I'm not saying you can't voice an opinion, just that you don't need to go flaming everything you don't agree with.

So I don't always add smilies, and say / post in a blunt manner.. that's the way I am.. and certainly not just in regards to LFS.

You say LFS is slowing down with each patch? Get a new computer/upgrade your current one/turn down LFS's settings.

Not LFS performance itself, just the rate at things are developed. Sure, I do expect a drop over time unless I upgrade, but considering LFS is pretty primitive in comparison to other games in some areas, I get far better performance in some others than I do in patch Y. Previous to this, the patches made little difference since 0.5K or whatever.

I don't have all gfx maxed etc.. I do set things up to be reasonable between eye candy and functionality.. but LFS doesn't have great gfx to begin with.. turning everything off will remove all immersion, meaning I may aswell boot up an old Amiga :)

You respect Scawen? It seems a strange sort of respect when you go around whining about things not being complete, doesn't it?

DK

I respect Scawen for what he's achieved so far (ie: I've looked at, and have no idea about coding AI for games etc.. it made my head hurt for one example).. but things have seemed to take a massive turn compared to what they were like when I started playing... he just doesn't seem too interested anymore. I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with that feeling / statement, but it's the impression I get looking at what has been in the recent changelogs compared to what's glaringly obvious about needing to be addressed.

I get burned out on projects too and like to take a step away from them. It's one reason I only develop C++ apps as freeware.. there's no definite commitment that has to be made.. but when it comes to producing something for clients / customers, that's something that you simply have to work through, but it seems like it's becoming a taller wall with every patch.



Regards,

Ian

[DieKolkrabe]

Ian, be glad Scavier aren't like Kunus

That's the stuff nightmares are made of :P

DK

[Christopher Raemisch]

Well compared to 6 months ago there are many more racers than before. When patch y came out LFS hit a new record of 1800 people online at once, small when compared to MMO's but for any type of racing game I don't think you will ever find a larger number.

[NitroNitrous]

I play LFS since the first public release and I am not bored. Maybe you need more more social life or do something different when in front your computer? :scratchch

[Ian.H]

Ian, be glad Scavier aren't like Kunus

That's the stuff nightmares are made of :P

DK

heh, that I am.. but atm, paint dries faster and is more interesting to follow :)



Regards,

Ian

[wien]

But its obvious that more and more of the newcomers are cruising and drifting.Yeah, there is a lot of at least cruising going around (which I really don't get, but that's another discussion). I'm still not sure the total number of racers is going down though. It just seems like it's more common for people to race a single combo (or server like CTRA) over and over and over again. Combine that with the increased number of players on each server and it might seem like the numbers are going down simply because you see less variety.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

/me thinks this thread needs locking and some members need a talking to.

DK

I think you need locking up :x

But please lets keep the recent mentality of destroying threads with this sorta "non"sense. and calls for it to be locked i for one would like to keep this thread open and flowing please.

Ian once you get to know him is really quite a decent fellow, sometimes you need someone around you who will say the things the majority of people wont dare say or wont say.

[J@tko]

I have to say, that as a new(ish) member, I'd be surprised that the numbers of people online has decreased, as I almost always find heavily populated servers every evening and even more so at weekends (in my time zone).

I agree with ACCAkut, i think they must be working on something major ATM. (and I hope so too)

I think that the car choice at the mo is pretty good actually, just needs a rally car and a le-mans prototype imo.

I do think we need a new track though. I love the current ones, and sure I'd love a new one even more.

[xaotik]

As a side-note, there's a world of difference between expressing an opinion on a subject using constructive criticism along the way and Ian's comments. All this "down to earth talk", "say it it as it is" and so on and so forth little tirades that a good percentage of has-beens, wanna-bes, and think-they-ares are prone to is pretty amusing but really has as little to offer in terms of actually being constructive as most of my smart-ass comments.

The way the malice gets churning is quite impressive though. I can't imagine how it would be if this wasn't about a computer game.

Despite my previous tongue-in-cheek comment about syndicates, strikes and marches I'll play ball and say that I agree with AndroidXP about the physics improvements being the most interesting bit of new patches but I can't say I share the same pessimism about the future of LFS. As has been likely pointed out, asian languages (or perhaps some other high and mighty imperial would care to humor us with some other derogatory term) are quite an undertaking and will open a pretty large market for LFS.

[DieKolkrabe]

heh, that I am.. but atm, paint dries faster and is more interesting to follow :)



Regards,

Ian

Get the stopwatch then :P

DK

[Gnomie]

Well compared to 6 months ago there are many more racers than before. When patch y came out LFS hit a new record of 1800 people online at once, small when compared to MMO's but for any type of racing game I don't think you will ever find a larger number.

For comparison, how are the figures for rFactor? Do they have a smaller or larger online community?

[Storm_Cloud]

I agree with Android too. I'll never see S3, not in my life-time.. I'll be lucky to see S2 in a final state.



I reckon S2 will go Final within the next 6 months and S3 Alpha will appear around Christmas. I'm not sure what else there is fix in S2 at the moment. It should be more or less feature complete now and the next 6 months would be plenty of time to fix things like aero-modelling, damage and crash physics.

[STROBE]

As a side-note, there's a world of difference between expressing an opinion on a subject using constructive criticism along the way and Ian's comments.
Couldn't agree more. I've been following this thread and it was a worthwhile read until Ian.H stepped in and ruined another thread. There's only so many people will be fooled by the explanations of "I'm just being blunt", "it's just the way I am", etc, like it gives you a golden ticket to say what you want.

Well, I think Ian.H comes across as an obnoxious little twat with a chip on his shoulder the size of an Intel factory, and who brings shame upon the name DSRC, but things such as "manners" and "general decency" restrain me from openly saying such things. Most of the time. There's plenty of discussion to be had in a constructive manner about the things we don't like about LFS, without resorting to describing aspects as "shit", "crap", or "some other bullshit". That's just trolling and dev-bashing, nothing constructive at all.

So, back on topic...

It's funny that this topic should spring up just as I was trying to motivate myself to return to LFS. The very fact that I mention trying to motivate myself to play a game/sim is a clue to the fact that things aren't as good in LFS land as they used to be. I've even got a team to race and practice with, but I still haven't managed to get on the track for weeks and months.

Why? There just isn't anything new to tempt me back. I'm someone that's bored of the tracks too. They're nice, but we've been racing the same circuits for many years now. The revised Blackwood drives great, and looks great, but... well it's still Blackwood.

Physics improvements in the form of aero, no-locked-diffs, ground effect and so on would provide a huge boost to the game. Day/night cycles, weather effects and more eye candy would take the immersion to almost unbelievable levels - but whole teams of programmers can work for a year or two to build graphics engines that can handle such stuff, so how long will it take Scawen, despite his considerable talent?

I've no doubt I will be back on track soon enough, but I just wish I felt the desire to get on the track right now.

There was a time when LFS would be one of the first non-essential apps I'd install on my pc. But I've just built myself a pretty decent specced PC, and LFS isn't anywhere to be found on it, not even the downloaded zip file. :(

I'm off to play a bit of BioShock and FSX. :shrug:

[niall09]

It's funny that this topic should spring up just as I was trying to motivate myself to return to LFS. The very fact that I mention trying to motivate myself to play a game/sim is a clue to the fact that things aren't as good in LFS land as they used to be. I've even got a team to race and practice with, but I still haven't managed to get on the track for weeks and months.

You still remember us! :p

[Christopher Raemisch]

For comparison, how are the figures for rFactor? Do they have a smaller or larger online community?

There cannot be a direct comparison exactly, but we tried to figure it out a while ago. The maximum you will see online in RF or and GTR was around 200-300 or so. We could be wrong though.

[KOB_CHEESE]

Well i still love the game - lots of people were raving about the patch at xmas, 2months down the line and we are getting impatient again :shrug:

For the past 5 years, I've tried loads of alternative racing games as they come out, but none of them have cut the mustard in comparison with LFS. I keep coming back for more. I completely understand why some of the hardcore long term players could get bored after a while, but as a casual pick up and play person the game just keeps getting better. If I want real life tracks, I pick up an ISI game, if I want great physics and racing, LFS is THE game to play.

Hopefully the new language work will bring in a whole host of new racers from all over the globe.. In the meantime, try to appreciate LFS for what it is - a fantastic online racing game !

Cor blimey look at me coming over all positive :schwitz:

[Lhunathwen]

Track creation by users?

I fear some of you have no idea about the difficulty of level-design and what huge amount of knowledge about internal 3D processing workflow is needed to get acceptable FPS.



Besides that, I quit with the last patch (FOX is no fun an more for me).
Maybe I'll give LFS a new try with the next physics update, they have to work on the tires most.
But all in all it became too difficult to keep up in LFS as a "after-work-hobby".
At last a well documentation is missing (comparisons with RL are useless here since this still is a SIM which implies it acts different to RL).

[thisnameistaken]

So I don't always add smilies, and say / post in a blunt manner.. that's the way I am.

"A cock".

[th84]

I dont understand all the fuss about insim/cruise servers. If these cruisers werent not on a cruise server, they probably wouldnt be on LFS at all. Things like cruise servers, SUMO, CnR etc etc, imo, are things to keep people intrested in LFS without new content. I think when we start getting some new content, cruise servers, and the like, will lose some of their luster.... until people get tired of the new stuff. Im not a big cruising fan, but if they keep people intrested in LFS, then Im all for it. Its been a while since Ive felt like doing any racing on LFS, if not for my role in helping test SUMO, it would have been 6 months (or more) since ive double clicked the LFS icon on my desktop.

[ATC Quicksilver]

I don't know many people who can play a game every day for 3 or 4 years and not get bored of it after a while. The start of a new year always sees a drop in users online, people go back to work, there isnt much motorsport on TV, schools start preparing for exams, there are lots of reasons. Don't worry though, in the summer the numbers shoot up again.

[Technique]

...now cars drop out of the physics engine and turn themselves off to try and recoup some resources. No car I've ever driven does this.. so a big step backwards IMO for realism.

Ian, you seemed to be pretty upset over this in the dSRC forum as well and I didn't understand it then either. If this is the worst thing you can nit pick about LFS I think the devs are doing a great job :thumb: Really, what difference does it make if the cars shut off after being idle for several minutes. I really don't understand how this can affect your enjoyment of the game. After all, I don't connect to a race server to watch my car idle. I don't really care if I need to start up the car after going afk for a few minutes. I wouldn't leave my real car running while I'm away either! (i live in the US) :)

If after years of development your FPS stayed the same I would say the devs aren't doing their job. When this game is finally released, the average PC hardware will be much faster than what we're using today and that should be the target - not the average PC when development began years ago.

P.S. I have similar hardware specs and I get ~45-60fps @ 1600x1200 :)

[Technique]

Back on topic, perhaps many of you that are bored waiting for the "devs" to make the game more realistic can make the game more realistic yourselves! :)

Build a realistic cockpit. Buy a 720 degree wheel, h-shifter and clutch. That will add more to the realism than anything else.

[petercollins]

I think the lack of combinations is beginning to wear thin. The number of laps I've done at Blackwood is ridiculous.

I often switch to GPL, GT4, Toca3, all sorts just to get a break from the same cars on the same tracks in LFS.

Shame, because I think LFS is by far the best sim.



:heyjoe67_:heyjoe67_:heyjoe67_:heyjoe67_
:shhh:GPL 1966 mod available now!

[auch_enne]

Hmm I don't think adding more combo's will solve that problem as it is now people are still driving as nat with gtr since s2 released.. There are so many tracks and cars almost unused... :shrug:

[atlantian]

i wonder when S3 will come out with real cars and tracks...?
righto!

[wheel4hummer]

Until the day LFS helps me develop close relationships with females, it will remain my last priority. (Says the guy who has 3,235 posts lol)

[The Very End]

Until the day LFS helps me develop close relationships with females, it will remain my last priority. (Says the guy who has 3,235 posts lol)

LOL!
Well, good luck finding a girl on this forum, and even if you manage to find one - getting a close releationship with her is a whole other thing :tilt:

[Busta]

There is a lot to do with LFS. I drive it since 5 years and im still not bored (well, i've not realy drived new patch yet).
An exemple : Even if LFS is not moddable, here is an exemple of what we can still do with it with some imagination :)

http://nsa01.casimages.com/img/2007/12/29/0712291239451931794.jpg
http://nsa01.casimages.com/img/2007/12/29/0712291241271931812.jpg
http://nsa01.casimages.com/img/2007/12/29/0712291242461931818.jpg

Im running an ice racing league (with the real rules of the trophée andros) with the french community and some other drivers like tonix of the Muroc.

And belive it if you want, but its pretty realistic with some little changes thanks to LFS tweak (and Bespoke for the rims).

We drive on modified FE6, other wise its only layouts that are directely on the tracks.

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=4019353064053497031

Well, if some of you are bored, PM me ;)
We have our server on the V version.

[Ikaponthus]

No point in having soopadoopa physics updates if the physics engine is so badly optimised that my FPS is down nearly to single figures ;) with shitty hacks to try and hide the fact.

Seriously mate. I get 150+FPS with everything on full, anti-aliasing and AF with my laptop.

You can't ask for all these updates if you're running the game on an old machine. It sounds like your computer is the problem, not the game.

[Ikaponthus]

More Tracks and/or Cars is NOT what is needed.

I'm quite sure of this. I think people that are asking for this are just old users who are wanting more variety because they've been playing the game for years while forgetting that the game is not yet finished! It's still in alpha mode! More fluff content is the last thing the devs should be concentrating on now IMO.

What is most important is finishing the game. It's only in alpha mode and there are glaring omissions that have a major impact on basic gameplay! There's not even a proper damage model yet! The AI try and ram through each other if there car ahead is slower, let alone being so robotic they do exactly the same lap times to a hundredth of a second! The physics model, while being very impressive and showing almost limitless potential, is not complete. The interior of every car is almost identical.

Secondly, how many tracks and cars do you want? There's about twenty cars there already and at-least 7 totally unique tracks. Considering how long it takes to master driving one car on one track, more of the same is not what is needed while the rest of the game is still incomplete! There's 140 car/track combinations there already! And that's not including the track variations.

Yes, more tracks would be nice. But at the alpha stage of development it would be a serious waste of the developers time in my opinion. There's far more important things, that will have a vastly greater effect on the overall LFS experience than adding more fluff. Really, adding that sort of stuff shouldn't be considered until the game is complete.

I think if the LFS community saw real and appreciable progress in the actual development of the core game they would be more than satisfied. Adding tracks and cars is just more fluff and not real progress.

[danowat]

This "Alpha" tag is a copout, it is always dragged out whenever people point out flaws in LFS.

The truth is, LFS has been alpha for a dogs age, and personally, I can never see it being anything other than an aphla release.

[migf1]

It's a little bit of everything that turns down some people and turn on some others. A sim can't satisfy them all in all areas.

What I'd like to further comment on is about some fellow posters who claimed that it's only natural to get bored if you play the same game over and over again for a vast period of time. It surely is natural, but the whole point of this thread is to seek why this might happening with LFS (correct me if i'm wrong). LFS is not supposed to and does not remain the same game through the years. It's rather an ongoing project, so we shouldn't play the same game over and over (and in some extend we didn't).

So the real question is whether the LFS progress satisfies the majority of the community, especially the online racers according to the topic's title.

Although I agree with Ian that the sim's progress is slow and with questionable priorities, I beleive LFS is still the... king of online racing. I've tried mostly rfactor and GTR2 and none of them offers the same excitement online... not even close! Wheel-to-wheel fights feel really short and somehow fake in those sims. Is it the superior LFS force-feedback, is it the physics engine, is it the fact that I'm by far more experienced in LFS? I dunno, the point is that LFS still offers me the greatest deal of enjoyment online, compared to any other sim I have tried.

That being said, constructive criticism should always be welcome by any sim's devs & community, since it's the only healthy way for a sim to evolve towards the right directions. For me RL tracks and sound rework shoud be high in LFS's to-do list, others prefer physics, more cars and grfx to be done first. Some others prefer rain, night and offline championships. One way or the other, the truth is that LFS is starting to show its (evolving) age and it's up to the devs to get the message early and do something about it, before the competition reaches or even overcomes LFS's current strong points.

[Eldanor]

I can`t understand why people want a real life track. Screw that, any kind of track is good. The current tracks in game are good, and if we would have anything new that is on that level I would be more than enough happy with that. But I guess people belives that they get bigger cocks if they can drive a RL track fast in LFS :shrug:


I believe if you can get a sub 8" around The Ring in GPL you get a couple of extra inches, really :)

Why do flying simulators have representations of the Earth? Would they have the same fun flying on an imaginary planet on imaginary airports? Maybe, but flying from Rome to Madrid is different than flying from "Happyville" to "Capital city".

I'm not saying racing at Spa will be better than racing at Aston, I'm saying it's different. Nothing to do with penises BTW.

[migf1]

I believe if you can get a sub 8" around The Ring in GPL you get a couple of extra inches, really :)
[snip]
Interlagos could be quite... cocky too :D

[HVS5b]

The start of a new year always sees a drop in users online, people go back to work, there isnt much motorsport on TV, schools start preparing for exams, there are lots of reasons. Don't worry though, in the summer the numbers shoot up again.

Thats a bit weird, I would have thought there would have been a drop off in the summer with the long evenings and all. Certainly that'll be the case with me. Got better things to be doing than sitting in front of a computer when the sun is shining brightly outside :nod:

Aye, ok, so I'm in Scotland, but the sun does shine here, if we behave :D

I suppose it all depends on the demographic, but is it really biased towards schoolies?

Oh, btw I love this game, just want some more tracks!

[NitroNitrous]

More Tracks and/or Cars is NOT what is needed.

I'm quite sure of this. I think people that are asking for this are just old users who are wanting more variety because they've been playing the game for years while forgetting that the game is not yet finished! It's still in alpha mode! More fluff content is the last thing the devs should be concentrating on now IMO.

What is most important is finishing the game. It's only in alpha mode and there are glaring omissions that have a major impact on basic gameplay! There's not even a proper damage model yet! The AI try and ram through each other if there car ahead is slower, let alone being so robotic they do exactly the same lap times to a hundredth of a second! The physics model, while being very impressive and showing almost limitless potential, is not complete. The interior of every car is almost identical.

Secondly, how many tracks and cars do you want? There's about twenty cars there already and at-least 7 totally unique tracks. Considering how long it takes to master driving one car on one track, more of the same is not what is needed while the rest of the game is still incomplete! There's 140 car/track combinations there already! And that's not including the track variations.

Yes, more tracks would be nice. But at the alpha stage of development it would be a serious waste of the developers time in my opinion. There's far more important things, that will have a vastly greater effect on the overall LFS experience than adding more fluff. Really, adding that sort of stuff shouldn't be considered until the game is complete.

I think if the LFS community saw real and appreciable progress in the actual development of the core game they would be more than satisfied. Adding tracks and cars is just more fluff and not real progress.

:bowdown:

[March Hare]

Aye, ok, so I'm in Scotland, but the sun does shine here, if we behave :D

I can vouch for that. Well atleast for the summer before last. I was in Scotland for a week and it only rained for a couple of days.
Even when we went to hike on Ben Nevis the sun shone. Must have been the result of this global warming thingy that everybody is talking about.

[DeadWolfBones]

An exemple : Even if LFS is not moddable, here is an exemple of what we can still do with it with some imagination :)

Im running an ice racing league (with the real rules of the trophée andros) with the french community and some other drivers like tonix of the Muroc.

And belive it if you want, but its pretty realistic with some little changes thanks to LFS tweak (and Bespoke for the rims).

We drive on modified FE6, other wise its only layouts that are directely on the tracks.

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=4019353064053497031

Well, if some of you are bored, PM me ;)
We have our server on the V version.


Very cool! :D

[Danke]

Regarding the inability to find a decent pickup race...

There IS pickup racing happening in LFS - on the demo servers. Why there and not on the licensed servers? Demo users generally don't have any leagues to practice for. And unless the name of the server has a drifting reference in it, chances are nearly 100% that there's a 4-10 lap race happening there.

If you use the in-game server browser for licensed servers, you have no idea if the 5 people on are spectating, qualifying, running a 5 lap race, or running a 3 hour race.

My suggestion: have the in-game server browser report the status of what's happening on the server (i.e. lap 2 of 6 or 10 minutes remaining in qualifying) in addition to how many people are on.

Many times I've seen 5-7 people on a server that sounded interesting, something like LFRs at South City, only to join and find that they were practicing for a league race or working on hotlap setups. It's fine that people do that (I do it too), but I'd rather not have to join the server to find that out.

And about the point of more content = better pickup racing. It's actually the opposite. Again look at the demo servers. Everyone knows the limited combos there so the learning curve is small.

[nihil]

My suggestion: have the in-game server browser report the status of what's happening on the server (i.e. lap 2 of 6 or 10 minutes remaining in qualifying) in addition to how many people are on.


That's a very good idea and should be added to the improvement wishlist (if it isn't already). It's actually one of the first questions I asked before coughing up for S2... but I was told that I was "asking too much", that LFS was "in development", blah blah blah...

[Gentlefoot]

The question mark gives you most of that info and now LFS remote shows you a plan view of the whole circuit and you can even watch a plan view of the racing (if its set up on the server).

[SamH]

You can see the current state of play at LFSW, and join the server from there if that's actually something you want. That way, you don't even need to start up LFS to decide if there's a server you want to race on. Pretty efficient! :)

[Gentlefoot]

You can see the current state of play at LFSW, and join the server from there if that's actually something you want. That way, you don't even need to start up LFS to decide if there's a server you want to race on. Pretty efficient! :)

Never use anything else :)

[Danke]

You can see the current state of play at LFSW, and join the server from there if that's actually something you want. That way, you don't even need to start up LFS to decide if there's a server you want to race on. Pretty efficient! :)

I agree that the info is in LFSworld, but it would nice to have it in both places. I always use the in-game browser, only because I haven't bothered to get join2lfs. I can make myself remember to use LFSworld, but you can't FORCE everyone to connect one way or another. If both places had that information, it wouldn't matter how you joined.

[SamH]

As Gentlefoot points out, though, the server browser already delivers most of the information. It tells you the track, the cars available, how many laps and where everybody on that track is - whether they're spectating, in a car and finished, or racing and on what lap. I don't really know what more information you're looking for that you wouldn't just be better off joining the server to see for yourself :shrug:

[Danke]

As Gentlefoot points out, though, the server browser already delivers most of the information. It tells you the track, the cars available, how many laps and where everybody on that track is - whether they're spectating, in a car and finished, or racing and on what lap. I don't really know what more information you're looking for that you wouldn't just be better off joining the server to see for yourself :shrug:

It's in the server browser at LFSworld, but not the one when you run LFS.exe. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible. :tilt:

[SamH]

It's in the server browser at LFSworld, but not the one when you run LFS.exe. Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible. :tilt:
Aye sir, you are ;)

Click on the [?] next to a server. This is new to you.. it's not a button that's available to you in demo, it's S1/S2 only.. so there's no need to feel stupid, unless you really wanna :shy:

[Danke]

Aye sir, you are ;)

Click on the [?] next to a server. This is new to you.. it's not a button that's available to you in demo, it's S1/S2 only.. so there's no need to feel stupid, unless you really wanna :shy:

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info :thumb: I've decided to feel stupid now despite your free pass. :D

[SamH]

hehe! We aim to please! If you use the last of the cofee in noobies corner, put another pot on. Someone else will surely be along in no time ;)

[MR_B]

Blimey, can't believe I've been playing LFS all this time and haven't come across this!
LFS always has another nifty trick up its sleeve when you least expect it. :)

[Danke]

Blimey, can't believe I've been playing LFS all this time and haven't come across this!
LFS always has another nifty trick up its sleeve when you least expect it. :)

Glad I'm not the only one who didn't know about that. BTW, Sam, I made the noob coffee last time, too. It's someone else's turn! :)

[SamH]

No volunteers?? :D

http://www.ukct.net/dlfiles/noob_coffee.jpg

[MR_B]

I'll have the girlie :D, although i'd have to check to see if she has a beard first...

[HVS5b]

Blimey, can't believe I've been playing LFS all this time and haven't come across this!
LFS always has another nifty trick up its sleeve when you least expect it. :)

Ach well, it seems like I'm in good company :razz:

New to me as well!

[The Very End]

I'll have the girlie :D, although i'd have to check to see if she has a beard first...

:ices_rofl
I want it too, how much you pay? :scratchch

[boosterfire]

I have mostly lost interest in LFS. Usually, it'll keep me interested for a few weeks until I get bored again and switch games. I do that all the time, maybe because I haven't bought any brand new fresh titles in a while.

I know that we're always going over and over the same things again. We all know what doesn't work in this game. We basically all agree that while the graphics in LFS are good enough for the game to be enjoyable, they aren't good enough for it to attract new customers. We all know that Eric lives in slow motion to the rest of us and should have finished doing dashboards by 2056. We all know that redundant errors of the past (notably colision system, etc) have been pissing us off for too long.

However, there's something I'd like to bring up, if it hasn't been yet. Considering that Scawen works alone on programming, he can only go so fast. That said, with this forum, it's easy to gauge how people are getting pissed off between each patch. Usually, people cheers when there's a new patch, do that for a couple of weeks, get pissed after a few months, and "demand a new patch or they'll quit" after another few months. Scawen working alone, I have a feeling that, up to a certain point, he has to release unfinished content to calm down people in here.

The reason why I bring up this point is this. Yesterday, I tried for the first time the A.I. (that shows much about how important I think it is). It was on KYGP, driving XRRs. So I go out of the pits... I brake... and BAM, the AIs crash into me just as if I wouldn't have been there. Now, that's what I called pretty damn unfinished. That makes me think: "Why on earth has Scawen released such a thing? It's flawed, and not even worthy of playing with it, not as if we'd have used A.I. in the first place, but still!" Maybe... it's not possible to finish the A.I. before there's a new collision system implanted? If so, why on earth did Scawen work on the A.I., a function that basically NOBODY EVER USES over a new collision system, a function that basically is problematic in EVERY RACE EVER?

I can understand that Scawen works the way he wants, and that he's working on something when he feels like it, but that kind of decision, working on something that nobody ever uses for a few months while he could have been doing other productive stuff is leading LFS no where. I think it's generally agreed that LFS will never attract as much people as a pure arcade racing game, then why on earth sabotage your own efforts by making - sorry - stupid decisions?

[danowat]

That makes me think: "Why on earth has Scawen released such a thing? It's flawed, and not even worthy of playing with it, not as if we'd have used A.I. in the first place, but still!" Maybe... it's not possible to finish the A.I. before there's a new collision system implanted? If so, why on earth did Scawen work on the A.I., a function that basically NOBODY EVER USES over a new collision system, a function that basically is problematic in EVERY RACE EVER?

You know the answer you'll get? "BECAUSE IT'S AN ALPHA RELEASE", that old chestnut gets wheeled out everytime, and it's a copout.

[DieKolkrabe]

And people do use the AI, for training offline

DK

[Hyperactive]

And people do use the AI, for training offline

DK

Very few do. It is too slow to practise for league races and too dumb to practise racing. It is only usable if you desperately want to race some combo but can't find human opponents or your internets is down.

[The Very End]

Very few do. It is too slow to practise for league races and too dumb to practise racing. It is only usable if you desperately want to race some combo but can't find human opponents or your internets is down.

I do not agree. The AI on PRO level is a good way of traning for new players. For experienced players it`s not much of a help, but for new players it can be used as practice, or a standar. If you can drive equally as fast as it, you are more than prepared enough for going online. IMO!

[NotAnIllusion]

If you can drive equally as fast as it, you are more than prepared enough for going online. IMO!
A bit more considerately, though :scratchch

[Doorman]

A bit more considerately, though :scratchch
Don't be too hard on the AI. They have a job to do and we just get in their way!

EDIT: Oops! Was that spam? Sorry DK

[Lhunathwen]

I have mostly lost interest in LFS. Usually, it'll keep me interested for a few weeks until I get bored again and switch games. I do that all the time, maybe because I haven't bought any brand new fresh titles in a while.

I know that we're always going over and over the same things again. We all know what doesn't work in this game. We basically all agree that while the graphics in LFS are good enough for the game to be enjoyable, they aren't good enough for it to attract new customers. We all know that Eric lives in slow motion to the rest of us and should have finished doing dashboards by 2056. We all know that redundant errors of the past (notably colision system, etc) have been pissing us off for too long.

However, there's something I'd like to bring up, if it hasn't been yet. Considering that Scawen works alone on programming, he can only go so fast. That said, with this forum, it's easy to gauge how people are getting pissed off between each patch. Usually, people cheers when there's a new patch, do that for a couple of weeks, get pissed after a few months, and "demand a new patch or they'll quit" after another few months. Scawen working alone, I have a feeling that, up to a certain point, he has to release unfinished content to calm down people in here.

The reason why I bring up this point is this. Yesterday, I tried for the first time the A.I. (that shows much about how important I think it is). It was on KYGP, driving XRRs. So I go out of the pits... I brake... and BAM, the AIs crash into me just as if I wouldn't have been there. Now, that's what I called pretty damn unfinished. That makes me think: "Why on earth has Scawen released such a thing? It's flawed, and not even worthy of playing with it, not as if we'd have used A.I. in the first place, but still!" Maybe... it's not possible to finish the A.I. before there's a new collision system implanted? If so, why on earth did Scawen work on the A.I., a function that basically NOBODY EVER USES over a new collision system, a function that basically is problematic in EVERY RACE EVER?

I can understand that Scawen works the way he wants, and that he's working on something when he feels like it, but that kind of decision, working on something that nobody ever uses for a few months while he could have been doing other productive stuff is leading LFS no where. I think it's generally agreed that LFS will never attract as much people as a pure arcade racing game, then why on earth sabotage your own efforts by making - sorry - stupid decisions?


I see your main point and have to agree with your arguments.


Additionally, I tried to race with AIs every now and then, just as you said if no one else is there, internet broke down or there is just no motivation for "real" races.
But it just does not make sense, they drive too stupid that you're better trained driving alone.


What I really miss are ingame tools that help you optimizing your setup.

Like your pits crew recording your race data and showing bars compared with your setting bars what would be better in overall race average, stronges left turn, stronges right turn ect.

Everyone always says this is a sim, it hast to be so difficult, but then "sim" the pits crew that does a lot of work, too, too!

(But I doubt that'll be there, since not even a well documentation is been given, the main point seems to be try and fail, wenn fail in common of course, but if that shall be the center of keeping people here.... Oo )

[DieKolkrabe]

Don't be too hard on the AI. They have a job to do and we just get in their way!

EDIT: Oops! Was that spam? Sorry DK

It wasn't spam, it was pork Doorman :)

Some of us get in their way more than others though...

/me really needs to finish that De Cesaris paintscheme :P

DK

[niall09]

:ices_rofl
I want it too, how much you pay? :scratchch

Well she didn't charge last night :smileypul

[w126]

We all know that Eric lives in slow motion to the rest of us and should have finished doing dashboards by 2056.I have just checked the GTR 2 credits. There are well over 20 people listed in it doing 3D modelling and texturing of cars and tracks, not including their bosses etc. They probably worked on that game for about a year and around 80 % of game content was reused from GTR (1) and GT Legends and only improved.
I think this shows that your statement is exaggerated.

[three_jump]

I would very much like to wait a few month more for the updated cockpits when they have the same level as the FBM cockpit once they are finished!

About the initial topic question: It comes on waves and it's hard to keep people on something when there's basicly nothing really new. But what matters more to me is a the lack of proper racing these days. It's very hard (a lot harder than it used to be) to find a server running a decent combination which doesn't require some kind of a license to be allowed to drive on (I think with my milage I have plenty of racing skills) or a drift faible... Where are you TBO drivers?

[The Very End]

A bit more considerately, though :scratchch

True, but aswell you can train on public servers. And what I meant that it can never teach you how to drive real good, since they just will crash, spin and murder you if you get in their way, but, for new drivers there maybe is a use for it.

Well she didn't charge last night :smileypul

Damn you!!

[boosterfire]

I have just checked the GTR 2 credits. There are well over 20 people listed in it doing 3D modelling and texturing of cars and tracks, not including their bosses etc. They probably worked on that game for about a year and around 80 % of game content was reused from GTR (1) and GT Legends and only improved.
I think this shows that your statement is exaggerated.

Oh, yes, I don't expect him to put out nearly as much work as 20 person would. The fact is though that plenty of people who work as 3D modelers and related matters agree in saying that Eric is particularity slow. Speak to RMachucaA about it, he'll tell you he's like 10 times faster than Eric. -.0

And of COURSE my statement is exagerated, that's the purpose of it.

[Hondulu]

I don´t think Eric is particularly slow. It´s just that Scawen and Eric needs to work in the same pace. Eric might have modelled twenty new cars and tracks but scawen just cant keep up with physics modelling and balancing and everything else that comes with new content.
I read somewere that the implementing of new interiors will affect the physics wich might be why they just cant put them in there.
Just a thought.

[The Very End]

I don´t think Eric is particularly slow. It´s just that Scawen and Eric needs to work in the same pace. Eric might have modelled twenty new cars and tracks but scawen just cant keep up with physics modelling and balancing and everything else that comes with new content.
I read somewere that the implementing of new interiors will affect the physics wich might be why they just cant put them in there.
Just a thought.

Thats new to me, I belived it just was about some re-modelling and re-texturing. Do you mean it will affect the physics aswell?

[Hondulu]

It was a while ago i read that so i might be wrong. My main point is that as soon Eric finishes something they can´t just go "hurray" and put it right in the game. Therefore it might seem as if Eric works really slow when in fact they just need new content to be fully integrated and functional with the rest of the game. I probably shouldnt be speculating about this since i know nothing about programming or modelling bot it just seems like normal workflow. The developers needs to be on the same page of the progress.

[JeffR]

In the meantime, if players get bored, they can create "which game is most realistic" polls ... For me this was a tough call between the Half Life series, the Far Cry / Crysis series, and the Tombraider series until the latest versions of Tombraider added "jiggle", which makes it the most realistic now.

[Richard Torp]

It comes on waves and it's hard to keep people on something when there's basicly nothing really new. But what matters more to me is a the lack of proper racing these days. It's very hard (a lot harder than it used to be) to find a server running a decent combination which doesn't require some kind of a license to be allowed to drive on (I think with my milage I have plenty of racing skills) or a drift faible... Where are you TBO drivers?

Spot on.. :thumb:

[mcintyrej]

To be brutally honest, even though I'm an LFS fanboy and don't play many other racing games, i agree with Ian on some fronts.

The development has been, how can i put it, slow.

I think the community should come together, make a list of top priority things that need fixing, for example the way a red and white barrier sends you into space. Just the stuff that really makes it not a simulation at the moment.

Once those are fixed and we have the core game to what is a very realistic simulator, we can start addressing the minor bugs.

It seems the developers have been doing this backwards and have not yet even reached the core bugs.

Someone should really do an exclusive interview with Scawen to find out some answers, so we can see where this game is going.

[mcgas001]

hmm...i kinda agree with Ian too in a sence. Ive not been here long but ive been doing research about the barriers and it seems they have been like this a long long time? :shrug:

[dawesdust_12]

:ices_rofl
I want it too, how much you pay? :scratchch

She'd be paying me, I'm that awesome.

[The Very End]

She'd be paying me, I'm that awesome.

Oh yeah, well, then I just take my charm-face on! Look attachment... **warning** Irony may occure

[dawesdust_12]

I'd hit that.



... with a cast iron pan.

[boosterfire]

The problem is that up to a certain point, it all comes together. Fixing the red and white barriers is not something you do in itself; it requires the collision system to be fixed, which requires the damage modelling system to be fixed as well. Both of these are probably enourmous amounts of work for both Scawen and Eric.

However, I do agree that the stuff that makes a simulation "not really a true simulation", like that kind of bugs, stuff that is just way out of reality, should weight a lot in the "to-do list" of the devs... :shy:

[atlantian]

well, in my opinion, the barrier works like the "man cannon" from halo 3....:D

[Lateralus]

I think the community should come together, make a list of top priority things that need fixing

That'll never happen. Everyone has a different idea of what should have priority. Democracy simply doesn't work in game development; it has to be left up to the developers on their own to decide what gets done and in what order, otherwise it will go in several different and conflicting directions.

I honestly don't care if the barrier bug ever gets fixed, because I don't drive around with the intent of hitting them. I've driven LFS for weeks and weeks at a time without ever experiencing the barrier bug. Personally I'd rather have development focused on aspects of the sim which most affect my racing experience. The periphery can wait.

[wsinda]

I think the community should come together, make a list of top priority things that need fixing, for example the way a red and white barrier sends you into space. Just the stuff that really makes it not a simulation at the moment.

Once those are fixed and we have the core game to what is a very realistic simulator, we can start addressing the minor bugs.
So you expect the devs to publish the source code and all other resource files? So they should make the results of many years of work, and the source of their income, available for anyone (including competitors)?

And then you think that some smart guys in the community -- experts in car physics, games programming and 3D modeling -- will step forward, take a good look at the stuff, and solve the problems? C'mon... :really:

Scawen, Eric and Victor are very good at what they do. If these problems were simple to solve, they'd have done so a long time ago.

[STROBE]

So you expect the devs to publish the source code and all other resource files? So they should make the results of many years of work, and the source of their income, available for anyone (including competitors)?
Umm, no - I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think he meant that the community decides what needs fixing/improving, and Scavier implement it. It'll never happen this way though, and for good reason.

[three_jump]

Umm, no - I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think he meant that the community decides what needs fixing/improving, and Scavier implement it. It'll never happen this way though, and for good reason.

It just doesn't work that way. If they wanted to work that way (being told what to do and when) they could have stayed at Lionhead :shrug: (I wouldn't like working that way either)

[Gentlefoot]

Where are you TBO drivers?


There are often a few of us on gentlefoot.com#3 and gentlefootTDRT :)

[feelthere]

Well, if you are looking for some inspiration we have a yearlong league with real sponsors and prizes such as the G25 Logitech Limited or a TrackIr, etc You can even win your in-game car as a 1:43 model. You can read about the race, prizes and the rules here: http://forum.iemit.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=3 You can also sign up to the next race in March at http://forum.iemit.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=36

Two servers in service for the community: feelthere.com (1) and feelthere.com (2). Visit our forum at http://forum.iemit.com/ and tell us which track/car combo do you like and we'll set it up if we get enough requests.

[kieran20]

There, corrected for you.

thanks :really:

I think you will find that if lfs was advertised with real cars and real tracks, it would become more attractive to alot more people.

[seinfeld]

all I can say is finally the rest of the community is agreeing with what I was being flamed for 12 months ago.
of course development is going to be slow with 3 semi commited creators, I mean not working 100% on this game. 24/7, I dont mean anything bad from this

I think the worst thing was all the promised updates with the latest patch was just all thrown away for an addition of a new car FB, and really the car has no place in LFS, its useless, the FOX is only a smidge faster, and they are both a good battle between eachother, the clucth is useless on it, even just normal racing burns it out.

also there is so much talent on this site, there are awesome skinners, and the high res tracks, and details, those people should be asked to help desing new tracks, and I dont even need to ask them, I know they would love to do it.

the game could improve so so much with the help of some experienced fans. it would speed up development by 300%.
Victor keeps saying we dont want more ppl, because then it wont be built the way we want it built, thats just an excuse really, because in the end he will have the final say, he will say what goes and what stays

I dont know why extra talent hasnt been recruited, the two things I could think of is they are just lazy, or its not a priority for them, and I dont mean this in a bad way, its that they are not consumed by this game, they want to keep this as a hobby not a full time job so to speak, I understand that, but as i said , ask for some volunteers that are experienced, in skinnning, maps, tracks, they can help you guys, the development can continue, you guys can keep the hours down on the development and just have the final say, compiling part to do.

what ever happens things need to be moved forward, you have GT5 out in a months time, which promises to be better the GT4, and if it is alot of people will leave LFS behind if the phisics are improved then thats all people will want, thats the only thing that needed improving was phisics, Iracing is also close, and with the cost involved, im guessing this will be a very very high quality Sim, if thats the case the choice will be easy, LFS wil lbe left behind, then the team will have to play catchup to get them back, thats when weird, risky decisions will be made, development wil be rushed, then the game will suffer, ive seen it way too many times in the MOD world
( I moded desert combat, and BF2)

please LFS commendear us to help you, Im sick of clicking multiplayer, and seeing no race servers, or 1 or 2 people in them, and then being forced to click drift server:banghead:

[danowat]

The day I leave LFS for GT5, will be a very, VERY cold day in hell.

Unless things are improved MASSIVELY from GT5P, LFS has nothing AT ALL to be concerned about.

[SamH]

all I can say is finally the rest of the community is agreeing with what I was being flamed for 12 months ago.
The rest of the community? Like as a whole? You WISH!
of course development is going to be slow with 3 semi commited creators, I mean not working 100% on this game. 24/7, I dont mean anything bad from this
My ass you don't. What a complete and utter troll you are.
they are not consumed by this game, they want to keep this as a hobby not a full time job so to speak
You suck. I mean it, you really suck. God, I hate trolls.

[Christopher Raemisch]

The rest of the community? Like as a whole? You WISH!

My ass you don't. What a complete and utter troll you are.

You suck. I mean it, you really suck. God, I hate trolls.

Settle Sam, Settle =)

LIke most people at my work everyone seems to think that everything takes ten minutes and everything is a quick fix. How little do they know...

[SamH]

seinfeld knows what he's doing by saying what he's saying. He's not saying it out of any lack of understanding.. he actually knows the truth but instead chooses, very deliberately, to convey a lie. He knows the devs are totally committed to LFS, and that they don't regard LFS as a part-time hobby, and that's precisely what sparks this reaction from me. I hate trolls.

[STROBE]

of course development is going to be slow with 3 semi commited creators, I mean not working 100% on this game.
Semi committed? Lol. I think they're very committed. It's just that there's only three of them, and there's only so much work three people can do.

and really the car has no place in LFS, its useless, the FOX is only a smidge faster, and they are both a good battle between eachother, the clucth is useless on it, even just normal racing burns it out.
I guess you haven't learnt to drive the FBM then. There's nothing wrong with the clutch on it. I've only managed to cook the clutch with deliberate effort to do so.

also there is so much talent on this site, there are awesome skinners, and the high res tracks, and details, those people should be asked to help desing new tracks, and I dont even need to ask them, I know they would love to do it.
And would they expect to get paid for it as well, since their work would be included in a commercial product? It's not as simple as just saying "you, let's use your work in our product" when Scavier are selling that product.

not consumed by this game, they want to keep this as a hobby not a full time job so to speak
I think it's quite clearly a full-time job - at the very least for Scawen. Victor appears to have taken a little step back and worked on another project or two, and none of us know about Eric. Either way, it's not for us to make demands or accusations about their working arrangements as it's none of our business. Yes we can voice concerns and opinions about the product, but it's up to the devs to allocate manpower/resources as required to keep the playerbase stable/content/not going anywhere/growing, and being sniped at won't change their minds in the slightest. I think the devs have more confidence in themselves and their product to pay any attention to your kind of comments.

what ever happens things need to be moved forward, you have GT5 out in a months time, which promises to be better the GT4, and if it is alot of people will leave LFS
this is where I stopped reading. :D


LFS is slow in development and increasing numbers appear to be dissatisfied with the current amount of content (tracks) and pace of progress, but it's by no means "the rest of the community" nor does it warrant troll comments followed by "i don't mean it in a bad way..." :shrug:

[Christopher Raemisch]

I think people need to look back at last year this time, we were lucky to hit 900 racers online, we are not double that but getting closer (1500 racers online at a time during the weekend)

This time of year has always been slow. It picks up again after school is out and the summer hits.

[N I K I]

and the summer hits.
ufff 3 months till summer for me :D

[SamH]

This time of year has always been slow. It picks up again after school is out and the summer hits.
Yup, I agree. In fact, I'd rather been left with the impression that that WAS the consensus/conclusion of this thread, barring some overt speculation etc.
ufff 3 months till summer for me
All good things come to those who...

[xaotik]

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if LFS is a result of someone's hobby, full-time job, or even that of a programmer with a bowel disorder doing 24-hour-on-the-toilet-with-a-laptop coding spree. I liked what I saw and I pitched in and I enjoy whatever limited LFS-time I manage to squeeze in a day. So all this arguments based on the commitment levels and what-not are really lost on me.

I understand that there is a dedicated (and one could say devoted) fan-base that Wants What's Best For LFS but sometimes even that has to be slacked a bit. It's good, it's healthy, but there are limits.

[axus]

Sinefeld, don't flatter yourself. And before I get into other reasons why you shouldn't, let me just say that if you manage to overheat the clutch on the FBM unintentionally, you're a clot.

For those who think Eric is working slowly, we've seen plenty news to suggest revamped car interiors, an improved Westhill and an improved Kyoto ring are sitting on his computer as it stands. Aston is nearly S2-ready, Blackwood and South City already are. That leaves Fern Bay as the only thing he really needs to finish before S2 final and moving on to new content. It's a shame that this is still only on his computer, yes. But Eric really isn't behind on his work.

Correct me if I'm wrong but very few people think development is slow. Progress is. Because development is targetting the wrong things to a certain extent, or at least because things are *still* left unfinished after they've been a focus area of a patch so it's like they've only been patched up a bit. Take the AI - that's been worked on for a good few months but still hardly usable so it's like those few months of development never happened until a few more months are spent on it. They are still useless as far as racing goes.

We got S2 Alpha in 2005. 2.5 years have passed, the tag is still there and with good reason.

And for crying out loud, in a game genre called simulation racing a good 20 or 30 years after its dawn we've still not got a single sim that manages to simulate tyres properly. How is that not the first thing on the physics to-do list? Every force that affects the way the car drives is transmitted through the tyres (apart from collisions and drag). Anything else that's implemented will instantly be wrong because the tyres are wrong. And the more things are implemented, the worse the model gets in extreme situations, resulting in exploits, like locked diffs.

[Glenn67]

And for crying out loud, in a game genre called simulation racing a good 20 or 30 years after its dawn we've still not got a single sim that manages to simulate tyres properly.


:D Well then m8 hurry up and finish uni and start coding the ultimate tyre model :p I'll let you take 3 - 5 years because that will be about the time I intend to retire and it would be nice to have it by then, so how about it eh :tilt:

[axus]

Todd and Gregor Veble have already beaten me to it. ;) Now we just need to get our hands on some of their work.

[Glenn67]

Todd and Gregor Veble have already beaten me to it. ;) Now we just need to get our hands on some of their work.

Hmm with your contacts that should be a sinch :D

I wondered why you had changed your tone so much ;)

[Danke]

To be honest, I wouldn't mind if LFS is a result of someone's hobby, full-time job, or even that of a programmer with a bowel disorder doing 24-hour-on-the-toilet-with-a-laptop coding spree. I liked what I saw and I pitched in and I enjoy whatever limited LFS-time I manage to squeeze in a day. So all this arguments based on the commitment levels and what-not are really lost on me.


This is exactly my thought process as well. I liked what I saw in the demo, I thought S2 would be worth $50, I bought it. I wasn't disappointed with my purchase. That was when S2 first came out. It's gotten a lot better since then and I still haven't paid another dime for it.

Sure, I'd like lots of things fixed or improved, more content, etc. But I'm not exactly in a position to demand it now, am I?

[smove]

also there is so much talent on this site, there are awesome skinners, and the high res tracks, and details, those people should be asked to help desing new tracks, and I dont even need to ask them, I know they would love to do it.

the game could improve so so much with the help of some experienced fans. it would speed up development by 300%.
Victor keeps saying we dont want more ppl, because then it wont be built the way we want it built, thats just an excuse really, because in the end he will have the final say, he will say what goes and what stays

I dont know why extra talent hasnt been recruited, the two things I could think of is they are just lazy, or its not a priority for them, and I dont mean this in a bad way, its that they are not consumed by this game, they want to keep this as a hobby not a full time job so to speak, I understand that, but as i said , ask for some volunteers that are experienced, in skinnning, maps, tracks, they can help you guys, the development can continue, you guys can keep the hours down on the development and just have the final say, compiling part to do.

Well, this is a point I really agree to. Like you said, it's the decision of the devs if some third's work will finally be integrated or not.
And why do so many people instantly hope to get rich with this? What a community of capitalists we are! :scratchch Successful and officially added contributions could be rewarded with vouchers and their name standing in the credits, what I think would be enough for most of them - even more than skinners and modders and programmers currently get for their effort: nothing, nada, null.

I fail to understand why the devs don't even try to hook people that do a great job AND are respectful for the devs' work and loyal enough to be critisized and pushed in the direction the devs want it.
Or do they?

I guess nobody of the potential contributers wants to destroy LFS. Instead they'd like to make it better, bring it forward, maybe for a lower priority bring in themselves with their work.
Surely, not everybody has the qualification to contribute on the high level of LFS (in most game areas), but maybe a kind of a competition could be the solution: Give the community example tasks and the person solving the problem the fastest, the best, or even both, is the winner with the chance of a future cooperation with the LFS team! Okay, I have to admit this costs time and effort what leads to finding somebody to do - oh my god, this is a vicious circle! So I now shut up. :x

[smove]

Ooops ... after finding my last post maybe was a bit off-topic, here comes what I originally wanted to say when entering this thread. :shy:

I see myself as an average LFS player, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe not the fastest in the world (missing records only several seconds :D), nor the slowest (of which I'm sometimes not entirely sure). So I firstly guessed there are many, many, many others like me having not the time to play LFS some hours a day, but maybe several times a week - of which I sadly couldn't find more than 10 the last months regarding the servers LFS offers when choosing multiplayer: There are the what I call pros at CTRA and CD, there are the oval junkies, the cruisers, cops and robbers, and the sad rest seems to be drifters or just-starters jumping instantly into the BF1. Means: Nobody for me I'd like to compete with, though I'm (at least I think so) rather a person of the original target group of LFS than at least five of the groups altogether I just mentioned. Hm. :shrug:

So my question is: Where is the average LFS player, like me??? Where are people that have a work and/or family that are not able to play 24/7 but actually want some nice, fair, average, maybe advanced racing sometimes a week? Can anybody hear me? This is a bit disillusioning I think.

[zeugnimod]

There are the what I call pros at CTRA and CD

This is where you are wrong IMO.

There are drivers of all abilities at the CTRA entry servers. I can't speak of CD but I guess they have different skill levels there, too.

You actually can finish almost always in the top 5 on the CTRA tier 1 servers if you drive clean and don't have any crashes even when you are 3 or 4 seconds slower than the WR.

[smove]

This is where you are wrong IMO.

There are drivers of all abilities at the CTRA entry servers. I can't speak of CD but I guess they have different skill levels there, too.

You actually can finish almost always in the top 5 on the CTRA tier 1 servers if you drive clean and don't have any crashes even when you are 3 or 4 seconds slower than the WR.

Could be that I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I needed a kind of license for joining a CTRA race recently ... :shrug:

[zeugnimod]

Could be that I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I needed a kind of license for joining a CTRA race recently ... :shrug:

Well, you do need a licence for the higher servers which are using TBO, LRF, GTR and the faster single-seaters.

You can join Race 1 (XFG/XRG) and Single Seater 1 (FBM) without a licence.

[smove]

Well, you do need a licence for the higher servers which are using TBO, LRF, GTR and the faster single-seaters.

You can join Race 1 (XFG/XRG) and Single Seater 1 (FBM) without a licence.


So I might try this - but how to gain the licenses you talk about? Are they depending on lap times, or laps raced, or races driven, or what? :shy:

[axus]

Hmm with your contacts that should be a sinch :D

I wondered why you had changed your tone so much ;)

*ahem*. ;) Nah, I've not really had the opportunity to try out that much yet. It's just that I'm a bit disappointed with the last physics patch considering what it could have focused on.

[zeugnimod]

So I might try this - but how to gain the licenses you talk about? Are they depending on lap times, or laps raced, or races driven, or what? :shy:

Look here (http://www.raceauthority.com/), to not turn this into a CTRA thread. ;)

[Mattesa]

I think people need to look back at last year this time, we were lucky to hit 900 racers online, we are not double that but getting closer (1500 racers online at a time during the weekend)
IIRC there was quite some time when there were twice the number of Demo users as Licensed.

[Lhunathwen]

Ooops ... after finding my last post maybe was a bit off-topic, here comes what I originally wanted to say when entering this thread. :shy:

I see myself as an average LFS player, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe not the fastest in the world (missing records only several seconds :D), nor the slowest (of which I'm sometimes not entirely sure). So I firstly guessed there are many, many, many others like me having not the time to play LFS some hours a day, but maybe several times a week - of which I sadly couldn't find more than 10 the last months regarding the servers LFS offers when choosing multiplayer: There are the what I call pros at CTRA and CD, there are the oval junkies, the cruisers, cops and robbers, and the sad rest seems to be drifters or just-starters jumping instantly into the BF1. Means: Nobody for me I'd like to compete with, though I'm (at least I think so) rather a person of the original target group of LFS than at least five of the groups altogether I just mentioned. Hm. :shrug:

So my question is: Where is the average LFS player, like me??? Where are people that have a work and/or family that are not able to play 24/7 but actually want some nice, fair, average, maybe advanced racing sometimes a week? Can anybody hear me? This is a bit disillusioning I think.



I think we both have the same kind of "driving possibility", I have a job and I'm not able to race 24/7, even when I'm at home I'm not a pure gamer any more (those times were as I was younger) and further I got other duties.
So sometimes I have no time to race for a month or more.

But I like LFS for it's realism and complexity, but while not being able to race 24/7 I'm really slow in creating a good setup for only one car on one track and when physics updates come out every now and then and all the work gets destroyed it is just not funny and so I and other players quit since the work get destroyed ever now and then.

It wouldn't be that bad if we'd been given better possibilities for setup creation, but I (we) as player feel quite left alone with the most important part in LFS.

There are still missing:
- A well documentation not only covering physics but what setting exactly causes what in LFS-
- A problem-solution-documentation covering what to change to solve speciffic balance problems (LFS still does not work as real life, as ride height does not influence downforce for example)
- Ingame tools that help you analyze replays to see which (spring *example*) settings to change in which direction to improve grip/ balance ect.

If it was not so difficult and time consuming to create setups, racers could concentrate more on racing instead of playing pit engineer, and that's what LFS is/ should be about => racing.

[Boris Lozac]

Just download some setup from the setup field, or ask some fast driver from the server, you don't have to adjust it perfectly to your driving style, i always drive with other people set's and i can get within half a second of the WR in 90 % of combos and i also drive very rarely.. Don't think too much about the setup, just drive and watch other fast drivers and try to copy them :)

[Hyperactive]

If it was not so difficult and time consuming to create setups, racers could concentrate more on racing instead of playing pit engineer, and that's what LFS is/ should be about => racing.

Imho, that is not a valid point at all. Creating setups with so many setup parametres will always take time, especially if you go all the way to get the setup fast and good to drive. No manual will help with it.

And there is always the easy option to download setups from setup sites and make some small tweaks to fine tune them etc.. Yes, the default setups are not very good but it doesn't take a lot of effort to replace those with better stuff.

From my own experience, creating setups has never been the factor that has "slowed" me down or taken time off from racing. And I'm having some difficulties understanding how it could have done so to anyone :).

[Rooble]

It wouldn't be that bad if we'd been given better possibilities for setup creation, but I (we) as player feel quite left alone with the most important part in LFS.

There are still missing:
- A well documentation not only covering physics but what setting exactly causes what in LFS-
- A problem-solution-documentation covering what to change to solve speciffic balance problems (LFS still does not work as real life, as ride height does not influence downforce for example)
- Ingame tools that help you analyze replays to see which (spring *example*) settings to change in which direction to improve grip/ balance ect.

If it was not so difficult and time consuming to create setups, racers could concentrate more on racing instead of playing pit engineer, and that's what LFS is/ should be about => racing.


I can see what you're saying with this because not everyone has the time patience or knowledge to create setups, but again I think if you spent about 30 minutes playing with a setup or trying to create a setup you would find that it really is very easy, and most setups don't require a full rework for different tracks.

80% of the time I take an existing reliable setup that suits my driving style (which I've either tweaked before, or has been given to me by another driver) and just go ahead and make fine adjustments according to what track it is I'm driving. With this method of creating/adjusting setups you give yourself the opportunity to either only make small adjustments (camber/tyre pressures/down force) or go all out and completely rework (camber/tyre pressures/down force/anti-roll/spring rates/bound rates/etc..etc..) it so its specifically created for that particular track.


Alternatively you could go to a setup site www.setupgrid.net (http://www.setupgrid.net) and just download a setup for that particular track you're wanting to race on, However I think you'd get more enjoyment and satisfaction out of creating your own setup, and then having people ask for it because they think its making you fast. :razz:

[Lhunathwen]

Imho, that is not a valid point at all. Creating setups with so many setup parametres will always take time, especially if you go all the way to get the setup fast and good to drive. No manual will help with it.

And there is always the easy option to download setups from setup sites and make some small tweaks to fine tune them etc.. Yes, the default setups are not very good but it doesn't take a lot of effort to replace those with better stuff.

From my own experience, creating setups has never been the factor that has "slowed" me down or taken time off from racing. And I'm having some difficulties understanding how it could have done so to anyone :).


Actually I'm quite familiar in optimizing the setup roughly very fast, but getting it good takes much more time.
I drove 6044 laps with FOX on blackwood during the last 2 years and I really was able to drive a single good lap 1,5 secs behind WR, but average was 2-3 seconds behind, then came the new physics update and I even had holidays these times and I wanted to use the time to create a set to come up with new physics and track layout and while playing a lot of others just passed far in development, thus I found it a waste of time.

Two friends of mine did so, too, they quite with the last patch.

And I got a bunch of other one's setups, even WR setups, but I got an other driving style, I simply can't control them so it is not always as simple as downloading other's sets.

[Boris Lozac]

I drove 6044 laps with FOX on blackwood during the last 2 years and I really was able to drive a single good lap 1,5 secs behind WR, but average was 2-3 seconds behind

Geez, was that with a default set? Can't imagine having 6000 laps on a combo and still be 2, 3 seconds average off the WR? :really: :)

[Lhunathwen]

Geez, was that with a default set? Can't imagine having 6000 laps on a combo and still be 2, 3 seconds average off the WR? :really: :)


Maybe I'm just too bad, no wait, actually I'm a quite theoretical person and very good incalculations, but for that, I need rules (action-reaction) and/ or numbers, and that's what I'm missing in current documentations, in guessing stuff I'm not very good and without very well knowledge you can argue for a change to come up with different reactions when some knowledge is missing.

But now I'm 4-5 seconds behind and for that amount of work I put in the result is just frustration.

[Boris Lozac]

But now I'm 4-5 seconds behind and for that amount of work I put in the result is just frustration.

Damn, you must be doing something really wrong, listen to my advice and watch a WR and see how is he braking, accelerating, i think with just watching it a couple of times you can shave at least one second off.. :)

[Lhunathwen]

I can see what you're saying with this because not everyone has the time patience or knowledge to create setups, but again I think if you spent about 30 minutes playing with a setup or trying to create a setup you would find that it really is very easy, and most setups don't require a full rework for different tracks.

80% of the time I take an existing reliable setup that suits my driving style (which I've either tweaked before, or has been given to me by another driver) and just go ahead and make fine adjustments according to what track it is I'm driving. With this method of creating/adjusting setups you give yourself the opportunity to either only make small adjustments (camber/tyre pressures/down force) or go all out and completely rework (camber/tyre pressures/down force/anti-roll/spring rates/bound rates/etc..etc..) it so its specifically created for that particular track.


Alternatively you could go to a setup site www.setupgrid.net (http://www.setupgrid.net) and just download a setup for that particular track you're wanting to race on, However I think you'd get more enjoyment and satisfaction out of creating your own setup, and then having people ask for it because they think its making you fast. :razz:


Even when you read through the physics you still have not experience in racing and setting combination and what can turn out how in which combination.

Those are all long time learning factors and those should be documented, too!

For example the claw clutch, the description is very theoretical and hard to understand, I even searched through the net to find better explanations, but I found nowhere else a clutch description based and percentage values so it is useless!
And only roughly knowing how such an important part works is just not enough for a professional game in my opinion!

Or the steering settings, for 50% of the values I have no idea what effect actually can be achieved with a change.

In spring changes I got quite well so far, but finetuning takes forever since you always got to re-tweak when you are faster.
Tires get hotter, you loose grip, you have to optimize tires to not get so hot while keeping the grip.
When you've done so you can drive fast all the time, you get better, tire overheat again, everything starts from the beginning.

So I still think a game as complex as LFS needs to have far better documentation.

[AndroidXP]

I agree with Boris, you must be doing something very wrong. Are you actually driving the cars, you know, just by feel? Without thinking about it? The fastest laps happen when you're "in the zone", meaning it's totally your unconscious doing the driving with no active thoughts about brake points or similar whatsoever.

Over 6000 laps is a MASSIVE amount and the changes on Blackwood aren't that dramatic. You should be way better than 4-5 secs off WR. Heck I just did my first ever 4 laps on FOX/BL1 since patch Y (LFSW says I have 293 laps done on it, but they were all done a long time ago), and I managed to get a shitty 1:10.72 with the RACE_S setup and a not properly mounted wheel, and that time is already less than three secs off the WR. Okay, that doesn't help you in the slightest, but seriously, you must be doing something fundamentally wrong. I'd suggest you to practice more, but maybe you actually need to focus on the way you drive :)

You also seem to be overly obsessed about setups, whereas their relevance to race speed isn't that high. Sure, the setup needs to roughly fit the track, but the fine tuning of exact values is for when you get into the sub one-second-off-WR range. I usually just take a setup from the setupfield (preferably the ones that come without a locked diff), do some blind tweaks and fixes to it without even testing it beforehand and most of the time it's perfectly fine for racing right off the bat. Completely developing a own set is just too much effort for the amount of racing I do these days.

Though granted, it all also depends on how gifted you are. The people you see doing WRs left and right don't necessarily practice months on that track, on the contrary, I'm pretty sure most are up to asskicking-pace within a few laps on a combo they've never driven before. Guess some people just have a knack for "interfacing" with computer sims or games in general :shrug:

[bbman]

You seem to think there are somewhat golden rules in making a setup... There aren't. Making setups is ALWAYS about shifting the balance between two extremes to fit YOUR driving, which means you YOURSELF are the key to it all, not the other way round...

If you want to learn, you can gather much knowledge just by reading some technical threads on here, keeping an eye on the advice given in the setup-forum, looking at setups in VHPA and reading Bob's advanced setup-guide (update due sometime in the future)... I haven't seen you asking questions about the things you so eagerly want to know, why? What holds you back? :really:

[Lhunathwen]

I agree with Boris, you must be doing something very wrong. Are you actually driving the cars, you know, just by feel? Without thinking about it? The fastest laps happen when you're "in the zone", meaning it's totally your unconscious doing the driving with no active thoughts about brake points or similar whatsoever.

Over 6000 laps is a MASSIVE amount and the changes on Blackwood aren't that dramatic. You should be way better than 4-5 secs off WR. Heck I just did my first ever 4 laps on FOX/BL1 since patch Y (LFSW says I have 293 laps done on it, but they were all done a long time ago), and I managed to get a shitty 1:10.72 with the RACE_S setup and a not properly mounted wheel, and that time is already less than three secs off the WR. Okay, that doesn't help you in the slightest, but seriously, you must be doing something fundamentally wrong. I'd suggest you to practice more, but maybe you actually need to focus on the way you drive :)

You also seem to be overly obsessed about setups, whereas their relevance to race speed isn't that high. Sure, the setup needs to roughly fit the track, but the fine tuning of exact values is for when you get into the sub one-second-off-WR range. I usually just take a setup from the setupfield (preferably the ones that come without a locked diff), do some blind tweaks and fixes to it without even testing it beforehand and most of the time it's perfectly fine for racing right off the bat. Completely developing a own set is just too much effort for the amount of racing I do these days.

Though granted, it all also depends on how gifted you are. The people you see doing WRs left and right don't necessarily practice months on that track, on the contrary, I'm pretty sure most are up to asskicking-pace within a few laps on a combo they've never driven before. Guess some people just have a knack for "interfacing" with computer sims or games in general :shrug:


Of course I lack in practise on the new BL course but I got a 1:09.xx but average laps are in 1:10 to 1:11, but I got quite fixed break points (and late => high break force; no, tires don't stop rolling =P ) but when comparing with other racers I lack in corner speed even while having more wing than the fast racers, thus there must be other reasons to improve turn speed.

Maybe better PC with more FPS or better wheel which is more precise if everything else should be ok.


There are so many factors and I can't find the reason, really complex stuff! O_O

[Lhunathwen]

You seem to think there are somewhat golden rules in making a setup... There aren't. Making setups is ALWAYS about shifting the balance between two extremes to fit YOUR driving, which means you YOURSELF are the key to it all, not the other way round...

If you want to learn, you can gather much knowledge just by reading some technical threads on here, keeping an eye on the advice given in the setup-forum, looking at setups in VHPA and reading Bob's advanced setup-guide (update due sometime in the future)... I haven't seen you asking questions about the things you so eagerly want to know, why? What holds you back? :really:


I did read through both manuals, as well as through other manuals and I think I got some experience since (I'd say) I can tweak setups
but it takes a long time for me, I always feel where the balance is not right, but sometimes I don't know how I can fix it, or if fixed it can have a negative result on the rest of the track (=> much testing).

However I did aks qestions here, but not much since the answers were no real help.

But as you said there is experience stuff around here, why not putting it into a doku of some kind?

I already got some stuff like "I'm loosing my heck while accelerating: soultion 1; solution 2; solution 3" and so on, but I did not find a setup guide that cares about steering or clutch settings for example.

Sure there is a lot of helpful stuff out there, but everything is scattered around the net and most of the stuff is incomplete.
Or it is in english, well my english is not too bad, but I do not know all those technical words since I installed the german version of course.

[AndroidXP]

got quite fixed break points (and late => high brake force; no, tires don't stop rolling =P ) but when comparing with other racers I lack in corner speed even while having more wing than the fast racers, thus there must be other reasons to improve turn speed.
Ohh, slow in - fast out is the solution then. :)

What you've said make it very clear that you're botching your exit speeds (and with that the speed over the whole following straight) by braking too late too hard. Late braking is necessary for defending your position, but to be fast over a whole lap it's important to get high corner exit speeds, which are much easier to achieve if you have a smooth, relaxed braking that allows you to nail the apex just right. Ideally you should already be on the throttle before the apex. Of course, the best would be perfect hard late-braking with a perfect apex and perfect exit speed, but chances are you are not perfect and exit is SO MUCH MORE important than the tiny bit of time you can gain on corner entry.

Also by not braking so hard and late you should automatically have smoother transitions and weight shifts, which itself can improve grip, speed and tyre life, too.

[Danke]

I'm a complete hack at setups, but here's what I do...

Try setups from different "authors", either from Inferno or the old standby begging fast guys for their sets. Once you try 5 or 6, see what you like and use that for a base setup in that car for other tracks. Adjust final drive and left/right handedness (camber and tire pressure) and you're good to go!

Once you have a setup you like, you can tinker with things and see what happens.

[Lhunathwen]

Ohh, slow in - fast out is the solution then. :)

What you've said....


Quite interesting point, I like high stability to be able to give throttle within the turn but I haven't thought about the breaking part itself (besides getting slow enough, fast enough "Who breaks later is longer fast" *lol* ), I should give it a try, thanks. :thumb:

[SabersKunk]

Personally I have played LFS nearly every day for 2+ years now but I have found my interest dropping since xmas.

Most of it is due to limited new content being released (cars\tracks). I have raced on the existing tracks thousands of times and driven all the cars. I seem to be approaching my limit on how long I can race on these combos.

In addition I'm not a huge fan of the new patch. Tyre heating is way off what it should be in my opinion and the slow gear change on the FZR has sucked all the fun out of my favourite car. I don't understand why gear change timing was slowed to help balance the FZR against the rest of the GTR's. Doesn't make sense to me, there are other, better ways of achieving balance.

[_--NZ--_[HUN]]

...

In addition I'm not a huge fan of the new patch. Tyre heating is way off what it should be in my opinion and the slow gear change on the FZR has sucked all the fun out of my favourite car. I don't understand why gear change timing was slowed to help balance the FZR against the rest of the GTR's. Doesn't make sense to me, there are other, better ways of achieving balance.

I don't agree with you. Before patch Y you could use the softest tyre compound in a race on any car that's equipped with slicks. R2 and R1 tyres are quali tyres and not for race use. I like FZR even better than before because the gearbox, it's more interesting to drive (if you have the right equipment).

[Christopher Raemisch]

Well there is one issue IMO with the tire heat. When you enter a corner the instant temperatures on the contact surface are much higher than whats recorded in LFS. LFS is more taking a mass temperature, I guess you could say, and that difference will cause acceleration (either laterally or longitudinally) to behave differently, how much it makes a difference I don't know.

Personally I like the slower FZR shift =)

[Mattesa]

;723224'] I like FZR even better than before because the gearbox, it's more interesting to drive (if you have the right equipment).
Kinda odd that it uses H-shifter though.

[Woz]

Kinda odd that it uses H-shifter though.

Not really. There are GTR spec series that still use H boxes so it is valid. Also it was given H as a means to balance the cars

[bbman]

Well there is one issue IMO with the tire heat. When you enter a corner the instant temperatures on the contact surface are much higher than whats recorded in LFS. LFS is more taking a mass temperature, I guess you could say, and that difference will cause acceleration (either laterally or longitudinally) to behave differently, how much it makes a difference I don't know.

Personally I like the slower FZR shift =)

You should try Ctrl + Shift while in F9-display some time... ;)

[LiveForBoobs]

I think altough physics should be improved they are better than any other game so far and now what is, in my opinion, lacking is graphics and sounds because when talking about simulation why do ppl assume physics only?
isnt simulating what we see and hear a just as valid simulation?

[Christopher Raemisch]

You should try Ctrl + Shift while in F9-display some time... ;)

Yep and they don't go up enough. Instant contact temps are supposed to be way above mass temps (someone correct me but IIRC they should be over 120c)

What more do you want for sounds? LFS IMO has one of the best sound engines around. Hit SHift+A while in a car and you can see what I mean. No smelly sampled files for LFS, everything is synthed. Graphics are not that bad, just not oversaturated like many other games which makes them look more brilliant than they actually are. There are things that could be better with the graphics but LFS is still DX8?

[Hyperactive]

LFS IMO has one of the best sound engines around. Hit SHift+A while in a car and you can see what I mean. No smelly sampled files for LFS, everything is synthed.

Best sound engines around? No, not really :). The only positive thing I can think of the current system is that it could model engine damage and alter the sound accordingly. But it doesn't even do that.

I've been playing rfactor and GPL a lot recently and those sample-based (GPL uses just one sound file per car!) provide enough information about the what the engine is doing.

And LFS does use sampled file for the engine, drivetrain, horn etc. The sound file is just shorter than in most games :).

And if you remember the first official V patch sounds, they were just so awful that people were stil using the U30 test patch. The reason why LFS sounds a bit better than it did then is only because of our beloved kidcodea leaked the information about it.

The only good thing about the current sound system is imho the potential it has :).

[xaotik]

And LFS does use sampled file for the engine, drivetrain, horn etc. The sound file is just shorter than in most games :).

From what I gather the engine sound synthesis is pretty much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable

I wish it would use the same approach for the drivetrain as currently getting a clean looping-yet-interesting sample done in the size limits it has is very hard.

In my brief experience of rfactor, the sound quality (much like anything else) varies dramatically from mod to mod but they all have the common trait that the loops are clearly audible (some mods more so than others) and they sound just the same at given RPM regardless of engine-load* - of course all that is not just rfactor, but any sample-based implementation.

* in LFS I am under the impression that it doesn't - however, I just might be wrong - I never actually took time to do any measurements

[Christopher Raemisch]

From what I gather the engine sound synthesis is pretty much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable

I wish it would use the same approach for the drivetrain as currently getting a clean looping-yet-interesting sample done in the size limits it has is very hard.

In my brief experience of rfactor, the sound quality (much like anything else) varies dramatically from mod to mod but they all have the common trait that the loops are clearly audible (some mods more so than others) and they sound just the same at given RPM regardless of engine-load* - of course all that is not just rfactor, but any sample-based implementation.

* in LFS I am under the impression that it doesn't - however, I just might be wrong - I never actually took time to do any measurements

No engine sounds in LFS are synthed. It takes a short sound sample as a building block and changes the wave to reflect the sound wanted for a given.

The rest of the sounds are sampled, but other than the drivetrain whirr it's not as critical as the engine sounds so that you don't get the problem like in other games that use pure samples where the sound itself doesn't alter with engine load, just the volume which is very fake indeed. It's almost like music sometimes with my 7.1 surround while playing LFS, especially when you get two cars running beside each other, makes me want to hop into my car hehe.

[xaotik]

No engine sounds in LFS are synthed. It takes a short sound sample as a building block and changes the wave to reflect the sound wanted for a given.

Excellent, you just described synthesis - you take a "building block" as you say and "change it" with the purpose of generating a new sound. In LFS's case instead of using a classic oscillator generated "building block" (lsine, saw, triangle, square, etc) it uses a sampled one. That's the basis of two forms of synthesis: wavetable and sample-based. :)

[Blaeza]

I've lost interest in LFS too! Forza 2 for me and I'm even in a team!:D

[Glenn67]

Yep and they don't go up enough. Instant contact temps are supposed to be way above mass temps (someone correct me but IIRC they should be over 120c)


Do you have any references you can link to about surface temps of tyres, because I'd sure be interested :)

[Christopher Raemisch]

Excellent, you just described synthesis - you take a "building block" as you say and change it. In LFS's case instead of using a classic oscillator generated "building block" it uses a sampled one. That's the basis of two forms of synthesis: wavetable and sample-based. :)

=) Yeah, LFS uses wavetable for synth =)

How exactly does sample based work? Do they have a huge sound database matrix that pulls a sound for a given rev and throttle input?

I know LFS takes a basic sound sample makes the wave, changes the amplitude and frequency depending on throttle and rev so instead of having steps in the sounds everything flows as one sine wave.

Do you have any references you can link to about surface temps of tyres, because I'd sure be interested
I'll have to do some searching, once i finish my homework... I think I am going to have to ban myself from teh internet to get my reading done, it's taking forever...