Round 2 Penalties and Results [Archive]

dekojester

9th February 2008, 19:35

This thread will be the place to request investigation of incidents, and also find results of all sessions, as well as penalties.

Only incidents in FP1, FP2, FP3, FP4, Qualifying, and Race sessions will be heard.

Please limit this thread to discussion of Penalties, ONLY.

There will be a separate post-race discussion thread.

d

dekojester

9th February 2008, 22:56

Results of FP1 are now posted on the LFSBC site.

PDF of the results are attached to the originating post.

d

dekojester

10th February 2008, 00:01

FP2 is ended. Results online. Check OP for PDF version.

FP3 from 0200-0300 GMT, 2100-2200 Eastern Std Time

d

dekojester

10th February 2008, 03:21

FP3 has ended, and results posted.

Remember about FP4, then at 1900 GMT is qualifications. Please be on the server by 1855 GMT.

d

dekojester

10th February 2008, 17:48

FP4 results now posted.

See you all for the race !

dekojester

10th February 2008, 20:22

/me gets ready for all complaints.

Please, I expect many.

It'll give me something to do !

d

J@tko

10th February 2008, 20:34

My Complaints:

At restart in second race, Kablikus started infront of me even though i finished 4th before SC.

That Bulgarian guy with the name that starts with a V crashed me in the safety car period, twice.

Juuretis, no idea where to start.

JO53PHS

10th February 2008, 20:42

Juuretis, no idea where to start.

Yeah, I am also complaining about Juuretis for general bad driving an lack of respect toward other drivers.

hyntty

10th February 2008, 20:58

I'd like to complain about [BDT]Vankata and J@tko overtaking under safety car.

J@tko

10th February 2008, 21:01

@ Juurme

One particular quote from you (and Moskvich3v1) which hurt me was 'What am I doing here'.

Yes, it was a crap race, but you were there because you signed up, and all us organisers tried our damned hardest to make this a great series for Beginner's, but whiners like you ruin it for yourselves, us and the other racers.

yes, Jatko and someone else (Can't remember the name) seemed to be confused over who was 3rd and who was 4th in the safety car lap...

I was 5th, and Jatko was in front of me. He drifted around T5 (I think) and spun off. About a lap later, he caught up, but took an extra position. IIRC it was sorted before green flag though...

Yes, there was a bit of confusion there, sorry!
Sorry also if I hit you!

I don't really care where I finished, the race was ruined by a couple of terrible people.

dekojester

10th February 2008, 21:13

Here's the deal, folks.

I will be going throuh the replay as soon as I get a chance, first looking at the things already discussed here.

Penaties will range from grid penalties for Round 3, points penalties, time penalties.

Please be sure to keep this topic to requesting incident investigations ONLY.

Please use the "Round 2 Post Discussion" thread for generla race discussion.

d

JO53PHS

10th February 2008, 21:16

=== Stop ===

Could we please pick up this discussion in the post race discussion thread :)

TAYLOR-MANIA

10th February 2008, 22:23

Well regretfully, I have some complaints to make... :(

Lap 1
On Turn 2 J@tko (with frequent lag might I add) spins from a tap by Moskvish3v1. They touch yet again just after Turn 3. J@tko then spends the rest of the lap passing cars to regain his position.
(See Lap 5 below...)

Lap 2
Moskvish3v1 (who earnt a Stop-Go even before the 1st Turn of Lap 1 for overtaking 2 cars!) is driving quite aggressively now...
At Turn 2 he makes a mad dive up my inside. I had Technique on my right so I had no further room to give Moskvish3v1.
He connects with my rear left causing me spin to around. He continues to do so untill I'm facing the barrier, out of his way & so he could pass just fine. He doesn't hesitate in the slightest, not even a lift off the throttle.
I wouldn't mind or complain if he atleast slowed down even a tiny bit so I could get it straight.
Poor etiquette & reckless driving don't you think?

Lap 5
J@tko spins yet again under the Safety Car. I was suprised to see him go driving past me & the others at Turn 1 of Lap 6...I think Kabliuks was too!
Still with plenty of lag & more overtaking under the SC...naughty naughty Jack!
I wouldn't of brought this up if I wasn't told the following -
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=691162#post691162

Stan

10th February 2008, 22:42

dekojester

10th February 2008, 23:29

So, here's the (other) deal:

I'm going to watch everyone's race, one by one.

I expect to have to write lots of notes down.

grrrr.

d

TAYLOR-MANIA

10th February 2008, 23:51

...Also, at the rolling start, FinnWest came flying past me before the Start/Finish line. (Sorry FinnWest).

Well if the Green Flag was displayed then I think it's more or less deemed to be okay. Technically, it's not, unless they accelerate at the same time the leader does.
I had two cars hoon past me too, the green flag was up but they was on the power earlier :shrug:

dougie-lampkin

11th February 2008, 00:29

Technically you're allowed to floor it before the green, as long as you don't pass the person in front of you, and you don't purposely create a gap in front to gain acceleration, right?

Stan

11th February 2008, 00:32

Well if the Green Flag was displayed then I think it's more or less deemed to be okay.

7. Rolling Start Procedures

<snip>
8. There is to be no overtaking until the Release Point is crossed.

There's the rule.
Start Finish is deemed to be the release point.
Could 17th and 18th placed drivers (for example) start racing each other two turns before the pit straight just because the leaders have been given the green flag?

dougie-lampkin

11th February 2008, 00:56

Could 17th and 18th placed drivers (for example) start racing each other two turns before the pit straight just because the leaders have been given the green flag?

Yes, because then there's a green flag. The release point is when the leader passes the line.

Hope that clears it up...

dekojester

11th February 2008, 00:58

I have begun the process of reviewing the replay from the race.

I have posted Qual and Race results, Race resutls are not yet official.

d

dekojester

11th February 2008, 02:23

At restart in second race, Kablikus started infront of me even though i finished 4th before SC.

kABLiuks LTU was in P3 at time of SC deployment, [TG] Hammond was in 4th.

You also spun during the SC. You should have stayed in the spot you were in when you rejoined the queue. This was not explicity stated in the regulations, so you will recieve no penalty for this. This will be corrected for next round.

You did, however, make excessive contact with kABLiuks during the SC period causing him to spin. For this, I am issuing you a 2 point penalty, and will deduct that from your points earned in the race. This will also cover your overtaking under SC.

dekojester

11th February 2008, 02:26

That Bulgarian guy with the name that starts with a V crashed me in the safety car period, twice.

Vankata spun you out during the first lap, and again later in that lap.

[BDT] Vankata also overtook under the Safety Car.

[BDT] Vankata - causing an avoidable incident, reckless driving in a Safety Car period. Overtaking during a Safety Car period. Telepit without permission in a race, and rejoined the race.

[b]1-round suspension.

dekojester

11th February 2008, 02:27

I'd like to complain about [BDT]Vankata and J@tko overtaking under safety car.

The overtaking under SC has been included in the penalties for these two drivers.

dekojester

11th February 2008, 02:32

Well regretfully, I have some complaints to make... :(

Lap 1
On Turn 2 J@tko (with frequent lag might I add) spins from a tap by Moskvish3v1. They touch yet again just after Turn 3. J@tko then spends the rest of the lap passing cars to regain his position.
(See Lap 5 below...)

Lap 5
J@tko spins yet again under the Safety Car. I was suprised to see him go driving past me & the others at Turn 1 of Lap 6...I think Kabliuks was too!
Still with plenty of lag & more overtaking under the SC...naughty naughty Jack!
I wouldn't of brought this up if I wasn't told the following -
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=691162#post691162

This complaint has been taken care of with the penalty.

Lap 2
Moskvish3v1 (who earnt a Stop-Go even before the 1st Turn of Lap 1 for overtaking 2 cars!) is driving quite aggressively now...
At Turn 2 he makes a mad dive up my inside. I had Technique on my right so I had no further room to give Moskvish3v1.
He connects with my rear left causing me spin to around. He continues to do so untill I'm facing the barrier, out of his way & so he could pass just fine. He doesn't hesitate in the slightest, not even a lift off the throttle.
I wouldn't mind or complain if he atleast slowed down even a tiny bit so I could get it straight.
Poor etiquette & reckless driving don't you think?

This has also been taken care of with his one-race suspension.

dekojester

11th February 2008, 02:37

I tapped McColl99's rear in the left hand hairpin, causing him to spin, however I did wait for him to get in front of me before I continued. (Sorry McColl)

Also, at the rolling start, FinnWest came flying past me before the Start/Finish line. (Sorry FinnWest).

Thankyou for admitting your fault in this incident. Thankyou for allowing him to get his place back, even though it put you half a lap back.

Remember to be cautions of what's going on around you, especially in the first couple laps when everyone's packed in.

Technique

11th February 2008, 03:42

I passed two cars before the start/finish line as soon as "green flag" was displayed on the screen. One was during the first start, and the second was on the restart. I'm not sure if I should be penalized or what. I thought anything goes once "green flag" is displayed - and due to the better power to weight ratio of the RAC I accelerated much faster than the RB4's on restarts.

evilpimp

11th February 2008, 03:55

Well I just saw my replay to see if I made any mistakes. The only contact there seemed to have been was with hyntty but I was clearly on the inside.

Also would like to clarify one thing. If I am leading under SC period, am I aloud to leave a gap between me and SC so that i get more speed coming into the last turn when the green flag is going to be displayed?

dekojester

11th February 2008, 04:06

evilpimp

11th February 2008, 04:16

kk. Thanks for clarifying.

dekojester

11th February 2008, 04:41

The Lap 2 incident between TG44 and [SR] Mutt will be investigated

Technique

11th February 2008, 06:18

Well if the Green Flag was displayed then I think it's more or less deemed to be okay. Technically, it's not, unless they accelerate at the same time the leader does.
I had two cars hoon past me too, the green flag was up but they was on the power earlier :shrug:

Hi taylor, that would be kaluiks and I. For the record, we weren't actually "on the power earlier". In fact, both him and I bunched up behind you and were on the brakes when the green was displayed. Our cars (LX6 and RAC) simply have better acceleration than the RB4 which is why we easily passed you before the start finish line. Safety car rule #8 and rolling start rule #8 seem to conflict each other - maybe this should be clarified for future seasons.

kABLiuks

11th February 2008, 06:33

Hi taylor, that would be kaluiks and I. For the record, we weren't actually "on the power earlier". In fact, both him and I bunched up behind you and were on the brakes when the green was displayed. Our cars (LX6 and RAC) simply have better acceleration than the RB4 which is why we easily passed you before the start finish line. Safety car rule #8 and rolling start rule #8 seem to conflict each other - maybe this should be clarified for future seasons.

agreed

moskvich3v1

11th February 2008, 07:10

Yes i make some mystakes and i crash 2-3 times but other times other crash to me.J@tko i recognize that i crash you 1 time becouse i can't stop at the time but affter that you bloked my way and i crash again:really:
On the beginning i play fair and in 1st lap i was 3 and after that i crash and broke my suspension and was 4th but the but the bad organizires close the pits and i have to make 4 laps with one of my tyre under the car :really: and i lost my position from 4 to 20 :really: i am so mad
Btw:ALL sorry about the crashes in the pits :D

J@tko

11th February 2008, 09:54

J@tko (with frequent lag might I add)

Sorry about my lag. Seriously, I've never ever lagged before without msn or IE on. I didn't have either on. Also, for me, it only really happenned right at the start and at the end of the race :shrug:

Lap 1
J@tko then spends the rest of the lap passing cars to regain his position.

Lap 5
J@tko spins yet again under the Safety Car. I was suprised to see him go driving past me & the others at Turn 1 of Lap 6...I think Kabliuks was too!

I had my secret weapon on - Road_ normal tyres, which really don't work on gravel! :( It meant that I didn't have to stop, but that was irrelevant anyway!

I wouldn't of brought this up if I wasn't told the following -
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=691162#post691162 (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=691162#post691162)

Never read that before. Ah well!

You did, however, make excessive contact with kABLiuks during the SC period causing him to spin. For this, I am issuing you a 2 point penalty, and will deduct that from your points earned in the race. This will also cover your overtaking under SC.

OK, I accept. I was in quite a strop at the time, and I think you'd be glad that I wasn't on TS; you'd have got quite an earful!

(Sorry to kABLuiks for spinning you! - misunderstanding on my part!)

TomMK

11th February 2008, 09:59

Yes, because then there's a green flag. The release point is when the leader passes the line.

Hope that clears it up...

Incorrect - each driver may start racing when THEY cross the start/finish line.

J@tko

11th February 2008, 10:02

Incorrect - each driver may start racing when THEY cross the start/finish line.

That's not what it says in the rules :shrug:

Will be clarified for Round 3. :thumbsup:

TomMK

11th February 2008, 10:09

That's not what it says in the rules :shrug:

Will be clarified for Round 3. :thumbsup:

Have they changed? I swear when I read them at the start of the season that's what it said? Sorry!

J@tko

11th February 2008, 10:13

Have they changed? I swear when I read them at the start of the season that's what it said? Sorry!

The rule will be that you can't overtake until you have crossed the s/f line.

J@tko

11th February 2008, 10:13

Have they changed? I swear when I read them at the start of the season that's what it said? Sorry!

The Rule will be that you cannot overtake until you have crossed the s/f line.

TAYLOR-MANIA

11th February 2008, 13:00

The Rule will be that you cannot overtake until you have crossed the s/f line.

Yeah & that's how it should be :thumb: I thought there was something not quite right about the whole Green Flag-Leader Accelerate-Cross Start/Finish thing...Almost everytime after we've had a SC lap I got passed by one or more cars & I thought it was a bit unfair somehow...
Well, it's good to see it changed. The organisers are doing a good job adopting new rule changes & issuing fair penalties where appropriate. Keep it up the good work lads.

TomMK

11th February 2008, 14:10

Well, it's good to see it changed. The organisers are doing a good job adopting new rule changes & issuing fair penalties where appropriate. Keep it up the good work lads.

Here here. The organisers are doing a great job.

hyntty

11th February 2008, 15:15

Yeah & that's how it should be :thumb: I thought there was something not quite right about the whole Green Flag-Leader Accelerate-Cross Start/Finish thing...

Well that's simply because the procedure is American... And i'm sure it works but http://cache.naurunappula.com/5/n/607/100007551372/1189955789107.jpg

Technique

11th February 2008, 15:48

Well that's simply because the procedure is American... And i'm sure it works but http://cache.naurunappula.com/5/n/607/100007551372/1189955789107.jpg

hey now... :) I'd like to remind you that Juuretis is from Europe.. 'nuff said :thumb:

just kidding juuretis....! maybe... :really:

Stan

11th February 2008, 16:10

Yes, because then there's a green flag. The release point is when the leader passes the line.

Hope that clears it up...

Thanks for trying to help dougie, however there no mention of the leader in the rolling start rules.

The release point is a point on the track, not a point in time and the Start/Finish line had not been crossed by the cars involved in this incident.

If I had thought it was a legal move I wouldn't have just let him drive right on by, I would have made an attempt to defend my position.

I'd rather one of the race organisers reviewed the incident and made an official decision.

J@tko

11th February 2008, 17:30

Incidents to be reviewed tonight:

Chat during the race
Restart incident highlighted above
kABLikus making us positions under SC (who else did that :scratchch)
Voting for restart
Post-race etiquette

J@tko

11th February 2008, 18:28

Incident between TG44 and [SR] Mutt:

Warning to [SR] Mutt for this and another incident in the race.

One more incident and a stricter penalty will be issued to [SR] Mutt.

kABLiuks

11th February 2008, 18:30

Incidents to be reviewed tonight:

Chat during the race
Restart incident highlighted above
kABLikus making us positions under SC (who else did that :scratchch)
Voting for restart
Post-race etiquette

i did what? i did not get it....

J@tko

11th February 2008, 18:31

i did what? i did not get it....

You span during the second safety car period, and made up the positions to your pre-spin slot, which is illegal.

kABLiuks

11th February 2008, 18:35

You span during the second safety car period, and made up the positions to your pre-spin slot, which is illegal.

well i was hit as you probably noticed.... so on that moment anger was to big too control....

J@tko

11th February 2008, 18:40

well i was hit as you probably noticed.... so on that moment anger was to big too control....

Exactly the same in my case :D

We'll decide on your fate later.

JO53PHS

11th February 2008, 18:41

You span during the second safety car period, and made up the positions to your pre-spin slot, which is illegal.

I also span during the SC period and I was unsure whether or not I was allowed to regain my position.

I stayed back to be on the safe side :)

dekojester

11th February 2008, 18:45

This will be futher clarfied in the new rules:

If you are unable to maintain the pace of the Safety Car during an Safety Car Period, you are not entitled to keep your position.

Case examples:

Car in P4 of 12 spins, recovers and rejoins in P9. The driver may not return to P4, but must hold in P9.

Car in P1 of 20 pits, and exits the pits in last. That car will be restarting in last.

d

dekojester

11th February 2008, 18:46

Incident between TG44 and [SR] Mutt:

Warning to [SR] Mutt for this and another incident in the race.

One more incident and a stricter penalty will be issued to [SR] Mutt.

The WARNING to [SR] Mutt is for causing an avoidable incident. The first contact was unavoidable, and you did make an effort to avoid futher contact, but you did cause a second incident after, and for the second incident, which caused the spin is what you are recieving this warning for.

dougie-lampkin

11th February 2008, 19:13

If, during an SC lap, you enter the pits, and there are others in the pits, are you allowed to gain positions by leaving the pits before them and rejoining the field, wherever you come out?

J@tko

11th February 2008, 21:56

If, during an SC lap, you enter the pits, and there are others in the pits, are you allowed to gain positions by leaving the pits before them and rejoining the field, wherever you come out?

Yes - this is the same as if those had spun. You can overtake them as they are at a standstill.

dekojester

12th February 2008, 04:35

The following drivers violated the no-chat policy during Sunday's race at Fern Bay Rallycross, and will recieve a 5-slot grid penalty for Round 3, to be applied post-qualifying.

Math1js
Vankata
juuretis
TG44
[SR]Mutt
MistaTea
Technique

[b]NOTE: Due to greater penalties for [BDT] Vankata and juuretis, this penalty will not be applied.

dekojester

12th February 2008, 04:37

evilpimp

12th February 2008, 04:48

So the 5 spot grid penalty will not be applied?

heh I think I talked during SC yeh... It was gettin long so I asked if it was gunna be in this lap :S

EveningStar

12th February 2008, 04:49

So the 5 spot grid penalty will not be applied?

i did understand it like if you already have a higher penalty than this then it will not be applied, so for you it means 5 places back next time

evilpimp

12th February 2008, 04:50

:schwitz:k

stupid me :P

Bleh now I better get pole or else im screwed :S

Actually either ways itll be hard -_-

GR!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol anyways my bad sorry for the chat. wont happen again and now im off to sleep.

Technique

12th February 2008, 05:31

The following drivers violated the no-chat policy during Sunday's race at Fern Bay Rallycross, and will recieve a 5-slot grid penalty for Round 3, to be applied post-qualifying.
.
.
Technique
.
.

Good thing the penalty affects round 3 since I won't be able to make that race!

dekojester

12th February 2008, 05:37

kABLiuks

12th February 2008, 06:53

For everyone's convenience, here is the summary of penalties that will be applied for this round.

If you have a penalty listed here, you have until 7 p.m. GMT on 12 February 2008 to file an appeal, else the decision is FINAL.

Juurme (Racer: juuretis) - 1-race suspension for reckless driving on server, leaving early, telepitting and rejoining

[BDT] Vankata - 1-race suspension for causing avoidable incidents, overtaking under SC, telepitting without permission, and rejoining after telepitting

J@tko - 2 point penalty for contact during SC that caused avoidable incidents. and overtaking under SC

kABLuiks LTU - 1 point penalty for overtaking under SC

[SR] Mutt has been issued a WARNING for causing an avoidable incident

5-spot grid penalties applied to qualifyign result for round 3 for chat during race session to the following:
TG44
[SR]Mutt
MistaTea
Technique

i admint that i did that, and i am not saying that it is not fair to put panelty points to me, but it is totaly not fair if next time any body spins during SC because he was hit and it causes him to lose like 10 positions, means if he finishes in 15th final position he gets 2points (20points less!if no body would have hit him) and the one that hit gained one position and plus 2points, but well he did a bad move so he lose 2 points and its status quo. My english is not perfect but what i am trying to say that the one who HITS actualy has advantage,because he eliminates one oponent,gaines one place, and at the end get only two points penalty, and the one who is HIT drops lots positions down and if he finishes there he get many many points less. its not really fair....

J@tko

12th February 2008, 08:11

During the Lap 3 thru Lap 7 Safety Car Deployment, the following drivers overtook another car, and will be penalized 1 Championship point, excepting in cases where there is already a greater penalty for a greater offence.

kABLuiks LTU
[TG] Hammond (has the 2-point penalty for causing incidents under SC)

Wasn't that what my penalty was for anyway? :really:

i admint that i did that, and i am not saying that it is not fair to put panelty points to me, but it is totaly not fair if next time any body spins during SC because he was hit and it causes him to lose like 10 positions, means if he finishes in 15th final position he gets 2points (20points less!if no body would have hit him) and the one that hit gained one position and plus 2points, but well he did a bad move so he lose 2 points and its status quo. My english is not perfect but what i am trying to say that the one who HITS actualy has advantage,because he eliminates one oponent,gaines one place, and at the end get only two points penalty, and the one who is HIT drops lots positions down and if he finishes there he get many many points less. its not really fair....

If someone is hit during the Safety Car, then the person that hit him is also penalised.

Juurme (Racer: juuretis) - 1-race suspension for reckless driving on server, leaving early, telepitting and rejoining

I'd like to appeal against the leniency of this penalty.

dougie-lampkin

12th February 2008, 12:10

I'd like to appeal against the leniency of this penalty.

+1 :nod:

kABLiuks

12th February 2008, 14:37

If someone is hit during the Safety Car, then the person that hit him is also penalised.

.

damn i know, but not that much as it supuse to be

juurme

12th February 2008, 15:01

I'd like to appeal against the leniency of this penalty.

Ur way too offended to me :really:

dekojester

12th February 2008, 15:15

I'd like to appeal against the leniency of this penalty.

New Penalties for juurme:

Suspended from Round 3.
Start at back of grid for Round 4.
Probation for rest of season.

Probation puts juurme on VERY thin ice for the remainder of the season. Any further offences may be given more strict penalties than they would normally.

d

juurme

12th February 2008, 15:17

New Penalties for juurme:

Suspended from Round 3.
Start at back of grid for Round 4.
Probation for rest of season.

Probation puts juurme on VERY thin ice for the remainder of the season. Any further offences may be given more strict penalties than they would normally.

d
Start back of grid at round 4 ? Well atleast i dont have to come for qualifs then...

dekojester

12th February 2008, 15:19

Math1js will be issued a WARNING for his disconnecting early.

This is lenient compared to the others because of the following reasons:
1 - He joined the series during the week-end, so may not have been completely familiar with the rules, and will be given a grace for this.
2 - He felt he was causing accidents and wished to minimize this.

d

dekojester

12th February 2008, 15:29

As of 1529 GMT on 12 February, the Round 2 results are official.

J@tko

12th February 2008, 16:15

As of 1529 GMT on 12 February, the Round 2 results are official.

As are the championship standings on the forum main page.

Stan

12th February 2008, 18:30

Thanks for trying to help dougie, however there no mention of the leader in the rolling start rules.

The release point is a point on the track, not a point in time and the Start/Finish line had not been crossed by the cars involved in this incident.

If I had thought it was a legal move I wouldn't have just let him drive right on by, I would have made an attempt to defend my position.

I'd rather one of the race organisers reviewed the incident and made an official decision.

Could I have an official decision on the overtaking before the Start/Finish line on the rolling start please.

dekojester

12th February 2008, 18:39

Could I have an official decision on the overtaking before the Start/Finish line on the rolling start please.

The new regulations will contain this.

But, overtaking is forbidden until YOU cross the line on the restart/start

d

Stan

12th February 2008, 20:08

The new regulations will contain this.

But, overtaking is forbidden until YOU cross the line on the restart/start

d

OK, well I won't kick up a fuss about penalties or anything, even though he finished the race right in front of me. :smileypul

(Remember this when you see me on the track FinnWest :thumb:)

evilpimp

12th February 2008, 21:33

Lol im probably not gunna do too good this race for the following reasons :

1. I didnt start practicing yet and most of u did O_O!
2. I start 5 spots behind which may result in my getting bumped.
3. Im training with G25 to go back to momo for the race :S

dougie-lampkin

12th February 2008, 22:02

Maybe it wasn't so smart to put the fast drivers towards the back of the grid...it'll be R2 all over again :scratchch

dougie-lampkin

13th February 2008, 00:17

dekojester

13th February 2008, 00:21

But do you not remember what happened when juuretis was put to the back? He tried to force his way through - with apparent results...

This is what would happen when the quick drivers are put to the rear...

But this is why the following car is to take all possible care when overtaking.

14 laps is quite a bit of time, if you're patient and don't make mistakes.

d