Round 0: Race Report

[BenjiMC]

Quallifying has begun.

12 Team XFR i have kicked you because only one driver may qualify.:shrug:

[srdsprinter]

Why is P.Heinonin on the racing line sitting there for 2 laps now... :)

[srdsprinter]

Nice Qual Session, good luck everyone! :thumb:

[BenjiMC]

Why is P.Heinonin on the racing line sitting there for 2 laps now... :)

He was off it :)

[BenjiMC]

02 has timed out twice...

[srdsprinter]

Hence he is not driving ;)

"practice" race

[Kim Gripping]

And that was the #8 GM/Unity team flipping onto the roof. :)

At least the safetycar-thing works fine :D

[Humbleridderen]

I heard that we could continue after flipping over, if we changed to R3, s.franke said. i´m confiused. what does that have to do with the rules?

"IGTC S.Franke : 08 K.Gripping - You will need R3's to continue racing."


What could have been nice in this test race, is that other drivers could have some time also in the race instead. R2 rear tyres is not the problem

[BenjiMC]

It wasn't R3's to continue racing, it was a suggestion to change to R3's on the rear. That message was sent before 08 rolled.

We won't allow you to rejoin the race.

[Humbleridderen]

It wasn't R3's to continue racing, it was a suggestion to change to R3's on the rear. That message was sent before 08 rolled.

We won't allow you to rejoin the race.


Ok, maybe I heard it out of context. I wasn´t there myself, just found it a bit starnge to interfere with our settings ..R2 works fine, we just had some spins which ruined the tyres I guess!..but still, I wasn´t there! :)

[Dru]

Great first half to the race..


The pace car spiced things up :D

only problem.... i was about 50 seconds behind leaders before SC was deployed and i was having to do almost PB's to catch up...

i cought up at the start of the third sector with the SC coming in..

I know its hard to drive the SC slowly (as the leaders wanna heat up their tires) but this is a short track (1.08's) imagine what would happen on the longer tracks ...


Anyhoe first Enduro Race tonight for CR, we think it's run by a great team of admins and are loving every minute of it :thumb:

TOP JOB

[danowat]

I think some people need to be more carefully under saftey car procedures..........

edit : I'll rephrase that, I think ALOT of people need to be more carefully under saftey car procedures.......

[Lotesdelere]

I think some people need to be more carefully under saftey car procedures..........
That was funny on LFS remote though :D
But surely less funny for the people on track :rolleyes:

[niall09]

What a very good race. A great race for me personally, getting up to 4th place :)

I'd just like to say sorry to Jouman, after the safety car, i rear ended him in the chicane and lost a few positions. There was a bit of lag but im sorry for my error.

[Dru]

the second SC period was AWFUL looking on remote....

thanks god people has 2 weeks to re-read the rules..

[srdsprinter]

Man, mohommed just SMASHED into the CR car.... :thumb:

[niall09]

Man, mohommed just SMASHED into the CR car.... :thumb:

Is that why he got the stop go? :shrug:


E: Why did J.Simek get a Drive Through penalty? :shrug:

[Dru]

Man, mohommed just SMASHED into the CR car.... :thumb:



yup - thank god you didn't hear the dialogue in our ventrillo about that one..

[Megin]

Q1: in rules - after pushing to the pits we must wait for 5 minutes, i was waiting but admin after 1 minute send me back to tha race

Q2: what was that? before i thing 2nd restart? lag? i was flying from the track...

[niall09]

yup - thank god you didn't hear the dialogue in our ventrillo about that one..

Sorry about that :(

[Dru]

bedlam again on the back striaght with the SC and similar drivers involved AGAIN..


SC School lessons on monday i think....

[Lotesdelere]

I have to admit I'm a bit surprised by the number of safety cars deployed during the race.

I hope the organizers are not going to use the safety car on any incident during the season because it would be a nightmare and useless if we can't do more than five laps in a row.

[dktoben]

Jesus what a race for TDRT. Startet 2nd, got overtaking, and fought for the 3rd place for a long time. The guy infront made a error, and suddently we were on the first place. We pittet and were on 9. place. Drove usself up to the 3rd place, got hit 3-4 times in the back in the saftycar periods.
Now we are 7.!

[srdsprinter]

Good Race. SC School needs to be put in session now.

Sorry to my teamates.

[Gil07]

People should think very carefully about their SC behaviour, and be much more careful for the real race. Consistency and safe driving is rewarded, you know...

[BranislavS]

race ok , but SC and laps after SC was horrible :( i don't understand why people when they have blue flags don't let pass . Need one more Test race to practice SC .

[BenjiMC]

I think all the SC's were because of rolled cars, or at least 3 anyway.

The race start was perfect, but as the poorer drivers took over for the end it all went wrong. A LOT of drivers need to calm down during SC periods. Expect a lengthy post about it and some teams will be warned.

[The Moose]

A game of two halves. The second half was appalling:(

Some guys really need to calm down on SC's

I really enjoyed my stint though.
Thanks to the organisers:thumb:

[dj-fluxsa]

Some people realy need to learn how to drive behind a saftey car and stick to the speed limit insted of speeding up and slamming on the brakes.

[Jouman]

What a very good race. A great race for me personally, getting up to 4th place :)

I'd just like to say sorry to Jouman, after the safety car, i rear ended him in the chicane and lost a few positions. There was a bit of lag but im sorry for my error.

Aa it was lag then its ok. Was a bit pissed off i mean i had just climped up from 19th to 9th or something. I was slowing down quite suddenly though cause the cars ahead of me had a collision and i wanted to avoid them, but i guess you couldn't see that incident from behind me. Then again was in the back of the field.

Well the whole race was a bit like lottery and the most dangerous situations were under SC. I think there needs to be rereading of the rules alot.

[Kdovi]

E: Why did J.Simek get a Drive Through penalty?

I reviewed it (lap 79) and I really don't know. I passed only two cars - #103 J.Mudrak, that crashed and 18 K.Dremljuga, that passed me after SC deployment so he let me pass again.

[niall09]

Aa it was lag then its ok. Was a bit pissed off i mean i had just climped up from 19th to 9th or something. I was slowing down quite suddenly though cause the cars ahead of me had a collision and i wanted to avoid them, but i guess you couldn't see that incident from behind me. Then again was in the back of the field.

Well the whole race was a bit like lottery and the most dangerous situations were under SC. I think there needs to be rereading of the rules alot.

Sorry again :( You just poped up on my screen and bam, i hit you :(

[DeadWolfBones]

Q1: in rules - after pushing to the pits we must wait for 5 minutes, i was waiting but admin after 1 minute send me back to tha race

It was our mistake that you were left on the track for so long before the PC arrived, so I decided to deduct that time from the 5 minute penalty.

[Jouman]

Sorry again :( You just poped up on my screen and bam, i hit you :(


Well no worries. We were 2nd in the lottery :D.

[chunkyracer]

Just a couple of considerations about the safety car, after watching the race on LFS Remote and being on the teamspeak with the drivers from my team:

- the safety car should always wait for the first car before entering the track, one of the times the SC was deployed, it entered in front of the car that was 4th or 5th and it caused a lot of confusion to the drivers, that didn´t know if they could overtake the safety car or not
- there is a need for everybody to be much more careful driving behind the SC
- after the SC leaves the track, the drivers have to respect blue flags. Today we saw a lot of people fight with cars that we´re lapping them, causing a lot of dangerous situations and some accidents

Anyway, I think it was a great ideia that we had this test race, because now we´re aware of this issues and I´m sure everybody will try their best to solve them so we can have a great start to this season of IGTC.

[DeadWolfBones]

Just a couple of considerations about the safety car, after watching the race on LFS Remote and being on the teamspeak with the drivers from my team:

- the safety car should always wait for the first car before entering the track, one of the times the SC was deployed, it entered in front of the car that was 4th or 5th and it caused a lot of confusion to the drivers, that didn´t know if they could overtake the safety car or not
- there is a need for everybody to be much more careful driving behind the SC
- after the SC leaves the track, the drivers have to respect blue flags. Today we saw a lot of people fight with cars that we´re lapping them, causing a lot of dangerous situations and some accidents

Anyway, I think it was a great ideia that we had this test race, because now we´re aware of this issues and I´m sure everybody will try their best to solve them so we can have a great start to this season of IGTC.

All very good points. As concerns the first point, we realized the same thing following the first SC period and after that we had Kaw wait for the leader.

The only other really confusing SC instance was when the leader (I believe it was the 15 car) caught the SC and then pitted when most of the cars behind him were a lap down. This led to a situation where we had to let most of the field by to get the leader (which turned out to still be the 15 car) behind the SC again. It gave a lot of cars their laps back, but it was sort of a mess. We'll have to work out a procedure there.

[Kirill.D]

I'm totally dissapointed in Cyber Racing car - the driver (don't remember name) who were driving fist 30 minutes of the race started ramming me on straight. I had blue flag, i tryed to let him pass but he continued punching me from the back.
Also 106 on 77. lap , who just crashed me out when i started braking on back straight. I had him lapped and when i got pass him, i started braking at 125 meters and he just crashed into me...

I really hope, that some people will respect blue flag more.

Kirill.D
c4Racing.

[BenjiMC]

125 metres is 25 metres too early. Maybe they weren't expecting you to brake so early and that caused the incident. I'll look at the incidents if you tell me the laps.

[Kirill.D]

The crash with 106 were on 77. lap. The problem with Cyber i dont know, have to check up my replay.

[R.Kolz]

Q: Admins, can we get a full replay of the race please?

[Megin]

sorry if i miss it in rules...
When SC is deployed we must respect blue flag or not? Overtaking is forbiden except blue flag situations?

[Dru]

Q: Admins, can we get a full replay of the race please?


Post with all replays (quali/Stint1/Stint2) (http://forum.conceptracing.net/viewtopic.php?t=205)

[R.Kolz]

Quali (http://www.bean0.com/concept/IGTC_test_qual.rar)

First stint (http://www.bean0.com/concept/IGTC_1st_stint.rar)

Second Stint (http://www.bean0.com/concept/IGTC0_Bean0stint.7z)

Thanks a lot, I def. can use it to see the Q once more but I want to do the stats of this testrace.

[BenjiMC]

sorry if i miss it in rules...
When SC is deployed we must respect blue flag or not? Overtaking is forbiden except blue flag situations?

Absoloutly no overtaking.

During the SC periods nobody should be attempting a pass on you and there should be a 2 car gap minimum between all cars.

[R.Kolz]

Absoloutly no overtaking.

The SC car you do overtake if you´re not the race leader.

[Gil07]

Race report from me, pardon anything I got wrong, no replay from the last stint :(



So, the test race http://www.sonicrealmsracing.co.uk/forum/Smileys/default/icon_smile2.gif In the midst of the mayhem there was some good racing:

Karl didn't do a PB in quali, but nonetheless a high 1.08 wasn't bad, so we started at 18th place of 24 teams. Tongey started the stint, managed not to hit anybody in the first laps, if I recall correctly, did some overtaking but spun a few times and went back to 16th when his stint ended. When i took over I left the pits in 18th again. I managed to get out quite well, do some overtaking and fast laps. Spun once though, that lost me 1 place. Then about 4 minutes before my stint would end, the Safety Car came out, so me and Karl decided to do a perfect pitstop+driver change and get back out in 15th, like the pitstop was started, with Karl in the car. After that, mayhem broke out, and many teams weren't careful at all, leading to many crashes and SC periods. Karl got tangled up in some of them, by no fault of his, but that made us lose some time. Then he started a great recovery, getting to 10th by passing cars and avoiding all the crashed ones. Overall it was a great result for the team, and we proved that being fast isn't everything http://www.sonicrealmsracing.co.uk/forum/Smileys/default/wink2.gif

Roll on Round 1!

[DeadWolfBones]

sorry if i miss it in rules...
When SC is deployed we must respect blue flag or not? Overtaking is forbiden except blue flag situations?

The applicable rule with emphasis added:

J2.4) Drivers ahead of the leader at the time of the full-course yellow may pass the SC and re-join the tail of the field. These drivers may not overtake one another while catching the field. Drivers behind the leader at the time of the full-course yellow must follow in on-track running order, not in race position order.

[R.Kolz]

Good it was a test race only.

- [TDRT] 104 T.Jessen, he told me, had his settings at "always change tyres", "not setup changes" and "no damage repair" as he leading this race, does his pitstop and,however, it fixed all damage and we only got 1 tyre changed. (LFS bug?)
- Lap 79, the later Race Winner No. 03, Adaptive Racing Team I think it was, overtakes us and gains 3th position under SC period.No overtaking under SC...
- Lap 80 we lost some positions once more under a SC as we´re hit from behind
- Lap 82, car No.23Team"Fred Loves Pie" doesn´t have any overlap and takes TDRT on 4th position out once more.
- We had to race against blue flagged cars a lot of times.C´mon ppl., don´t decide the race...
Good this was a test race only... :)

Anyways, thanks to the race admins. Season 2008 is going to be a lot of fun, I´m sure about.

[DeadWolfBones]

Wanted to say that you guys ran very well today too, Kolz. A big improvement over your pace last season. :thumbsup:

[Dru]

A big thank you for running this test race :thumb:

We thank you for letting CR run with 2 cars, it was a great experience for all 4 drivers involved :D

I've made a quick report on our forums here (http://forum.conceptracing.net/viewtopic.php?t=206) if anyone is interested.


we truely can not wait for the Championship proper to start :thumb:

[R.Kolz]

Wanted to say that you guys ran very well today too, Kolz. A big improvement over your pace last season. :thumbsup:

Thanks a lot.Us TDRT FXR-underdogs are always happy to present you a cookie or two...:razz:

[danowat]

- Lap 79, the later Race Winner No. 03, Adaptive Racing Team I think it was, overtakes us and gains 3th position under SC period.No overtaking under SC...

IF this was the real race we would certainly challange that, simply because the time period between the SC message and the actually overtake was so small.

I ask this of the admins.

Is there a "buffer" between the SC message and the actual "banning" of overtaking, because we were close, and I think the overtake was done, or nearly done as the SC message come on screen.

Also, as I wasnt racing, is the SC message clear?, is it an "Admin message", i.e. a huge message in the centre of the screen like the blue/yellow flag message?

[Saerki]

Qualifying went greatly for flash, starting from 6th place. Then it was time for race, at the start, i lost one place in t1, then everything went clearly until at the lap three, i lost control in last corner, fell two places, now we were 9th. On lap 34, i was overtaking pernix team, again on last corner, when the pernix got too slow speed on it, maybe gap was 10km/h. He turned into the corner with outer line, with me in inner line, and got out of the corner on normal line, bumping me a bit, i lost few places there.
At lap 40 it was time for my break, and M.Wiseman's turn. He drove first laps quite slowly, getting feeling about left-handed wheel. (he's british) He was in one big accident which put in SC, but still, when it was time for change again, at lap 78, he came in at 16th place, and we decided to put too much fuel on the last stint, thats where i began to lose on straigths. Still i managed to climb two places and flash-racing finished it's 1st endurance race on 14th place, we were quite happy, knowing we could've climbed to the top 7th with a better 1st stint.
SC periods weren't so bad at all, no-one hitted me from back, and i didn't hit anyone :)

Hoping to race on this season's "real races"
-Sharky

[DeadWolfBones]

Is there a "buffer" between the SC message and the actual "banning" of overtaking, because we were close, and I think the overtake was done, or nearly done as the SC message come on screen.

In real life, leagues would use CCTV/broadcast footage to quickly determine if a pass was made after the field was frozen, etc. In LFS, obviously, it's not that easy, so we ask that if you think a pass was questionable (i.e., could be challenged) you go ahead and give it back. Better to give a bit of ground and save a penalty/a lot of work for the admins.

Also, as I wasnt racing, is the SC message clear?, is it an "Admin message", i.e. a huge message in the centre of the screen like the blue/yellow flag message?

We have a script that does a RCM (big mid-screen message) and admin text (upper left w/o driver's name before it) in bright colors simultaneously. We did both to avoid the situation where a driver doesn't see the RCM due to a blue flag warning.

[danowat]

Sounds fair to me, I'll have to review the replay and see exactly what happened

[Dmt]

And PLEASE, let faster car pass you!
no matter if he is few laps behind you!!!! :mad:

[Gil07]

You were a danger to all, out there, Dmt. You were laps behind but still fighting with drivers and causing accidents. We were watching you for some time and decided to let you pass to avoid getting crashed too, but that's not the way to race endurance. Please be more careful for the real race.

[felplacerad]

And PLEASE, let faster car pass you!
no matter if he is few laps behind you!!!! :mad:

:shrug:

- Lap 82, car No.23Team"Fred Loves Pie" doesn´t have any overlap and takes TDRT on 4th position out once more.

Explanation and apology sent at another forum.

[DeadWolfBones]

And PLEASE, let faster car pass you!
no matter if he is few laps behind you!!!! :mad:

I suggest you read rules H1-H4.1 very closely.

Your driving today was very bad at times today, and that's not the right kind of attitude for a driver in this series.

[Megin]

Absoloutly no overtaking.

During the SC periods nobody should be attempting a pass on you and there should be a 2 car gap minimum between all cars.

Fine, so we act properly. I have to watch replay becouse i want see what happend in SC period when i 'fly away' :shrug:

[Jouman]

Good it was a test race only.

- [TDRT] 104 T.Jessen, he told me, had his settings at "always change tyres", "not setup changes" and "no damage repair" as he leading this race, does his pitstop and,however, it fixed all damage and we only got 1 tyre changed. (LFS bug?)
- Lap 79, the later Race Winner No. 03, Adaptive Racing Team I think it was, overtakes us and gains 3th position under SC period.No overtaking under SC...
- Lap 80 we lost some positions once more under a SC as we´re hit from behind
- Lap 82, car No.23Team"Fred Loves Pie" doesn´t have any overlap and takes TDRT on 4th position out once more.
- We had to race against blue flagged cars a lot of times.C´mon ppl., don´t decide the race...
Good this was a test race only... :)

Anyways, thanks to the race admins. Season 2008 is going to be a lot of fun, I´m sure about.


I would like to add to your list::razz:

- Lap 68 car No.104 leaves a cap before the safety car pits in and starts an overtaking manouver before the green flag. IMO you clearly overtake two or three cars before the flag is green.

But anyway checked the second half replay out of interest and that is admins nigtmare, if it were the actual race.

[R.Kolz]

I would like to add to your list::razz:

- Lap 68 car No.104 leaves a cap before safety car and stars an overtaking manouver before the green flag. IMO you clearly overtake two or three cars before the flag is green.

But anyway checked the second half replay out of interest and that is admins nigtmare, if it were the actual race.

Yes, I partly agree. The problem was that you guys got very slow and I tried to avoid to ram into you. We still made a little contact and as I tried to re-group behind you the green flag /rcm came and I found myself on the inside line.At this point I didn´t know where you where at ( cockpit view ) and accelerated. I can see on the replay that I was mayby half a lenth beside you already when the green flag came and agreed, this could have gotten me into trouble in a real race.

@Danowat. Yes, he overtook me under yellow and not just me but the guy in front of me as well. But this guy decided not to let this happen and overtook your driver once more under this SC period.
And as of his overtaking me: It was NOT done, or NOT EVEN nearly done as the SC message came on screen. But I wonder if the various racers get all these /rcm´s at different times at their PC´s at home.

@ And looking at the picture once more I wonder if this /rcm in yellow "Safety car deployed" is the same as a "yellow flag" message ?

[d6nn]

relax mate. yea i checked the replay too, im so sorry bout that, the message didnt show or i didnt realize it until i was aside you, and i slowed down to let you and the other guy pass, you didnt pass me, so i though maybe it was ok. sorry anyways. it wont happen in the real race.

[Scott_Michaels]

I was really very impressed with the way the admins ran the safety car periods, very professional. What I was not impressed with was the generally abismal level of driving conduct, particularly under safetycar. we all know the SC will drive at 62mph/100kph, why do you guys get suprised when you are driving at 90mph and suddenly come up on a train of cars? Absolutley ridiculous with nothing to be gained.
I also found a lot of people seemed to think that if the car infront has a slight wiggle that's an excuse to overtake them under the SC, which ended up causing more accidents as guys ended up racing under the SC.
One car in particular, #12, tried to either pass me or punt me a number of times under SC, then promtly crashed into me at T1 after the green flag. Massively over aggressive driving IMO. I felt like I was the veteran and you guys were the ones being evaluated at times, not the other way around. Like a parent in a bouncy castle with a bunch of kids :p
Still, with a bit of SC practice and a larger track, this will really be a fun season, assuming Northstar R4R is accepted into the league....

[Psymonhilly]

well ..... this race was without a doubt a mess.
our team was running happly until the 1st SC period which lasted 2 laps and spoilt the rest of the race for us, i think that all that just for being told to spec is ridiculus :really: whole grid was put out coz of it :(

far to many SC periods for little results :nod:

[Lotesdelere]

The only other really confusing SC instance was when the leader (I believe it was the 15 car) caught the SC and then pitted when most of the cars behind him were a lap down. This led to a situation where we had to let most of the field by to get the leader (which turned out to still be the 15 car) behind the SC again. It gave a lot of cars their laps back, but it was sort of a mess. We'll have to work out a procedure there.
Yep that was where a LOT of cars got their lap down back.

I would also suggest to the admins/marshalls to pay more attention to the people overtaking before the green flag and to enforce the penalties against this behaviour.

[Lotesdelere]

And looking at the picture once more I wonder if this /rcm in yellow "Safety car deployed" is the same as a "yellow flag" message ?
Rules:
2) When the SC is deployed, the track is under a full-course yellow condition and the field is frozen. As such, drivers are to cease racing for position and fall in line—this means no passing.

[The Moose]

I don't think you can blame the organisers for the amount of SC periods. That was entirely down to crap driving.

Having watched the replay, and from what i saw of the 2nd half of the race on LFS remote, one of the main problems in this race was with blue flagged drivers. Personally i had no problems with lapped cars but some of the drivers involved really should learn how to behave when they are blue flagged. It was extremely amateurish to say the least, certainly not what i would expect to see in a league of this standard.

The fact that quite a few people had no idea how to behave in a SC period was a bit sad as well. It just went to prove that not everyone read the rules. If you have any respect for your fellow competitors then you should at least know how to behave in all situations. Reading and understanding the rules is essential in a series like this.

Also, making silly overtaking attempts on cold tires after the restarts is bit reckless. Endurance racing is not like your average pickup races where you have 6 laps and chuck yourself into every available gap.

hmm, that sounded like a rant:razz: I don't mean it like that, I'll get off my soapbox now:D

Overall it was a great, if slightly frustrating experience (not for me personally in the race, but watching it all fall apart in the second hour)
Hopefully the problems will be ironed out and the first round proper will be a bit smoother.

This is going to be a great season:thumb: Thanks to all involved in organising it.

[srdjanmilasinovic]

I think that it was great organization. BTW about SC, they must to make sure that all drivers will respect rules when SC is in the race. My team have a little problem with connection and I'm sad for that. We have good times and laps but in 30 lap connection break up. Then we are reconnect on server and continue to race. But I think that we were good.

Once time more I must say GREAT ORGANIZATION! :thumb::thumb::thumb:

[Dru]

BTW, dues to disconnections - is oe was there a traker running last night?

[DeadWolfBones]

BTW, dues to disconnections - is oe was there a traker running last night?

No, there wasn't, but we're working on having it in place for the actual race.

[niall09]

No, there wasn't, but we're working on having it in place for the actual race.

Will there be official results for the test race?

[DeadWolfBones]

I suppose there can be, but I didn't really think it necessary.

[DeadWolfBones]

Can someone run stats on that full replay?

[Franke]

Nope stats stops after about half way point tried 3 times, need another replay, can you download it from server?

Regards
Franke... Click

[Bean0]

Don't think it takes D/Cs into account though...

http://www.bean0.com/concept/IGTC0Stats.zip

Still uploading, wait 5 mins from post time.

[DeadWolfBones]

Thanks very much, Bean0.

I'll examine the replay and figure out final results in a few.

[niall09]

Thanks Bean0.

Here are the stats online :)

http://www.niallmcevoy.com/misc/igtc/igtc_test_result.html

[srdjanmilasinovic]

This is official results or preliminar? Because We don't have 30 laps before break connection.

[DeadWolfBones]

Stats don't account for disconnects. I'm tabulating official results right now.

[Cawwa]

I've looked through the replay and have some questions about it. First of all I want to apolligy for our second driver coursed some accidents. ( I assume he'll write something about it here).

But the questions I have is regarding the SC which coursed us troubles.
1. When SC goes out it have to be as seldom as possible. When the restart goes the tires are cold and is a risk for accidents. To bring out a SC for a car flipped isn't necessary imo. The driver can just go to spec mode as soon as possible.
2. When sending RC messages it's a big delay if "Yellow flag" or "Blue flag" is shown, somehow the messages seem to come from a cue. It can go several seconds before the message is showing up.
3. When the SC is going out to catch the leader the gap between the slower cars can go from 2s to one lap if a car just been lapped and the one he have a fight with is not when the SC is deployed. I guess you have discussed this before but I bring it up again if so ... :)

Based on the above I want to suggest the following:
1. No SC when a car get flipped, just let the driver go to spectator mode.
2. Send all admin messages via normal chats.
3. Let all lapped car pass the SC and gain a lap. They are going to the end of the line and will not interfere with the racers on the lead lap.

The other strange things that happened during the SC period, passing cars, drivers out in the grass and so on, I'm sure you will look into and I saw some good suggestions from you.

[Kirill.D]

3. Let all lapped car pass the SC and gain a lap. They are going to the end of the line and will not interfere with the racers on the lead lap.

Do you mean by that, that even if the SC has catched leader up, the lapped cars can still drive pass the SC and others and gain the lap back if they will make it ?

If yes, then i agreed with that proposal.

This was actually the thing that confused me in the race, in F1 you can pass the whole "train" of cars, but to be sure i did not pass them and stayed in the line. And yes, i have read the rules :D , the SC part several times and some things are still confusing...
I think you should change the rules and really make allow to pass SC if you are lapped.

Besides, it will be better for all. If the lapped car can't go pass and gain the lap back. There is big chance that after green flag he will cause an accident, because he will have blue flag. It would be more safe if lapped cars could gain lap back, get in to the end of the line and continue safely race after green flag.
That was the actual reason of crappy performance of c4R cause we were racing all the time under blue flag... we had some technical problems with 2.nd driver. So i had to do 3 PIT-s before i could give the car to him, with this time i lost 2 laps and after that it was very bad to race. 80% of the race was blue flag for us...




Kirill.D

[Cawwa]

Yes that was what I ment.
The restarts was a another word for caos. The lapped cars got Blue Flag during the first two laps all the time, they never know who they should let by and who they where fighting about positions with.

[BenjiMC]

....
Based on the above I want to suggest the following:
1. No SC when a car get flipped, just let the driver go to spectator mode.
2. Send all admin messages via normal chats.
3. Let all lapped car pass the SC and gain a lap. They are going to the end of the line and will not interfere with the racers on the lead lap.

The other strange things that happened during the SC period, passing cars, drivers out in the grass and so on, I'm sure you will look into and I saw some good suggestions from you.

1. The SC is to simulate real life conditions. In real life an SC would be called for this incident. Flipping rarely occurs, but Blackwood seems to attract it more than any other circuit. I suggest that FXR+XRR drivers take it a bit easier through the chicane to prevent this.

2. The messages are RCM + Admin text messages, however admin messages do not show in the replays.

3. The problem here is that not everyone will be in position even if you let all lapped cars through. For example the car behind the leader is 7 laps down but the car behind this is only 2 laps down. They may or may not work out that the 7 laps down car has to let the car behind it through as they regain the lap on the leaders. Hence there will still be lapped cars mixed in between other peoples races, only this time it would be further down the grid and not with the leaders. Sorting this out would take a lot longer than 2 laps. It would be handing a whole lap to the other teams which is not exactly a fair proposition if you have worked your right leg off for an hour just to have that lap given back to everyone else (e.g. ConeDodgers). My suggestion here is that everyone watches out for each other on restarts and that they are patient and weary of the lapped cars and COLD TYRES. R3's do not have the grip that R2's had in patch X etc.

For the remainder of the season, weaving during an SC period will be banned. It caused more incident than it did help. The reason people weave in real life is to get rid of "marbles" on their tyres and other debris. LFS doesn't simulate this and the gain in heat anyway is minimal.

[DeadWolfBones]

Another option would be to have all lapped cars drop to the back of the queue (in order) during the SC, but I think this would be too messy to pull off effectively (without adding a lot more laps to the SC periods).

As Benji said, the number of SC periods in this weekend's race was a fluke. I think the highest number we had last season (except for the semi-disaster at SO4) was three, and that was in four-hour races. The easiest way to prevent SC periods is for drivers to keep all four wheels on the ground. The only one I saw in watching the replay that wasn't directly the driver's fault was the Cyber flip, which was a combination of two unrelated incidents (i.e., Cyber spun on his own exiting the backstretch, was recovering and another car spun and hit him, catapulting him into the fence and onto his roof).

The fact is that a majority of the drivers in the test race were not driving as if it were an endurance race. Over-aggressiveness and silly/dangerous moves do not win endurance races. Caution and strategy do.

SC periods are a fundamental part of the design of this league. Obviously, we're doing our best to improve our implementation of them all the time, but this requires some cooperation from the drivers and a good deal of clean driving.

[Cawwa]

I never suggested to order the lapped cars among them, for a while I thought of it but put it away for the same reasons you gave, it takes to long time and would be hard to understand.
But to let every lapped car by the leader and SC would bring them behind the field and the fight for the lead among the head competitors could go on without disturbance from lapped cars.
The lapped cars would at least have less Blue flags to take care of.

Just let the lapped cars by in the order they are, shouldn't be a problem at all.

[DeadWolfBones]

I never suggested to order the lapped cars among them, for a while I thought of it but put it away for the same reasons you gave, it takes to long time and would be hard to understand.
But to let every lapped car by the leader and SC would bring them behind the field and the fight for the lead among the head competitors could go on without disturbance from lapped cars.
The lapped cars would at least have less Blue flags to take care of.

Just let the lapped cars by in the order they are, shouldn't be a problem at all.

It would also gift the lapped cars with an entire lap back, which is sort of a huge insult for the faster teams who put in a lot of hard work to get ahead of them. I'm sorry, but this won't be happening.

edit: I'd love to hear other suggestions to address this issue, however.

[R.Kolz]

It would also gift the lapped cars with an entire lap back, which is sort of a huge insult for the faster teams who put in a lot of hard work to get ahead of them. I'm sorry, but this won't be happening.

Additionally, the blue flagged cars would probably want to do pitstops as well under SC making this idea even more complicated.

[Bean0]

I could be totally wrong, but seem to recall a system being used in US Oval racing (maybe NASCAR) where the drivers on the lead lap would form one queue and those not on the lead lap would form another, in on-track order, alongside. The lead lap queue then moves ahead of the lap down queue in a controlled manner.

Obviously having 2 queues of cars isn't a problem on an oval, could be on a tighter track though.

[DeadWolfBones]

I could be totally wrong, but seem to recall a system being used in US Oval racing (maybe NASCAR) where the drivers on the lead lap would form one queue and those not on the lead lap would form another, in on-track order, alongside. The lead lap queue then moves ahead of the lap down queue in a controlled manner.

Obviously having 2 queues of cars isn't a problem on an oval, could be on a tighter track though.

Yeah, it's a good system for NASCAR but I don't think it'd work so well for road course racing. The lapped cars would just blend in in the first corner, as if they'd all been in one line to begin with. Net gain would be very little for the work/confusion it would require, I think.

[Kirill.D]

Its used in F1 also if i dont mistake.

But i understand organizers, so i understand why they wont accept it and its ok :D , means that we have to practice more :D ^^

[Cawwa]

It would also gift the lapped cars with an entire lap back, which is sort of a huge insult for the faster teams who put in a lot of hard work to get ahead of them. I'm sorry, but this won't be happening.

edit: I'd love to hear other suggestions to address this issue, however.

Hard to see it would be an insult to any driver, the car that get his lap back is still in the end of pack when the restart goes anyway. But now he can continue to fight with the car who was 2 sec infront of him who never was passed by the leading car.

The main reason for this suggestion is to make it easier for the lapped cars getting fewer Blue Flags and for the cars on the leading lap to continue their fights without interfering.

[DeadWolfBones]

Hard to see it would be an insult to any driver, the car that get his lap back is still in the end of pack when the restart goes anyway. But now he can continue to fight with the car who was 2 sec infront of him who never was passed by the leading car.

The main reason for this suggestion is to make it easier for the lapped cars getting fewer Blue Flags and for the cars on the leading lap to continue their fights without interfering.

Yeah, I understand and applaud that impulse. It would certainly be less messy if there weren't lapped cars in amongst the leaders.

However, I can't see how you fail to understand why the leading cars would be frustrated at lapped cars getting their laps back for free. Being at the tail end of the line = maybe 20 seconds behind the leader. Being a lap down, depending on track = anywhere from 1:10 to 3:00 behind. Not to mention that these lapped cars already get a significant amount of time back just because of the bunching up the SC causes.

[The Moose]

I can definitely see both sides to the argument. Having the lapped cars at the back of the pack would certainly cause less problems on the restart, but if i'd spent 40 laps driving fast enough to lap someone i would be a bit peeved that due to a SC they were suddenly only 10 secs behind me again.

Still, the best solution is to drive with more care and not cause the SC periods at all:nod:


EDIT..beaten by DWB :D

[DeadWolfBones]

BTW, dues to disconnections - is oe was there a traker running last night?

I've had a talk with WolleT (tracker guy) regarding this issue, and it appears unfortunately that he is no longer accepting new tracker work, and is in fact planning to shut down following the end of the MoE season.

I've asked him what it takes to run the tracker, and whether he'd be interested in licensing out the software. He said he'd get back to me. So we'll have to make do for now, unless we have any genius coders amongst us.

[Cawwa]

I find it strange that you didn't even care to look at the car who was 1 sec ahead of the leading car who now gain 59 - 2 min 59 sec depending on the track and furthermore gain as much of the lapped car who chased him but cought by the leading car.

If you guys don't want it - no big deal.

[DeadWolfBones]

I find it strange that you didn't even care to look at the car who was 1 sec ahead of the leading car who now gain 59 - 2 min 59 sec depending on the track and furthermore gain as much of the lapped car who chased him but cought by the leading car.

There has to be a dividing line somewhere, and the leader makes for a particularly convenient (and traditional) one. Sorry that you disagree, but for me the possibility of a team getting up to 5.5 minutes back in one fell swoop is a bit too much. As I've said, this is a decision that isn't likely to change. Thanks for respecting it.

[Hallen]

I think that some of you don't realize how difficult it is to marshal or Admin one of these races. We simply do not have the tools to quickly review protests or even be able to catch things like overtaking under yellow. We do our best and keep our eyes on things as best we can. We will catch you eventually, so don't try it. But don't be surprised if we don't initially see it.

The Safety Car needs to deploy to the track when it can and when it is most practical to catch the leader. If that means that the SC pulls out in front of you and you are not the leader, you have to know the rules and you must pass the safety car. We might be able to work a rule for the safety car by using the turn signals to indicate that it is OK for you to pass, but you have to know your position on the track and the rules. You should know it is OK to safely overtake the SC on your own.

We are not on a power trip by the way. The rules were setup for this league to simulate live racing as best as we can. You all signed up for it hopefully with full knowledge of the rules. We have to enforce the rules as they are written for it to be fair for everybody. I think it has been going quite well.

The SC periods add another dimension to the racing that can help you or hurt you depending on how you deal with it or what is currently happening. Yes, you have to deal with lapped traffic and vice-verse. That is part of the challenge. :thumb:

During the 4 hour races I hope that everyone will be a bit more calm and keep the greasy side down. Fewer safety car periods would be good.

[chunkyracer]

Just like Hallen said, as long as the safety car enters the track in front of the leader, there shouldn´t be many problems. If you´re not the leader and you are the car behind the safety car, just overtake it and keep going. Besides that, with LFS Remote it´s easy to have someone from your team on Teamspeak (or any similar software) giving you information about the position of the safety car and the cars near you, just like your pit crew would do in real life racing. So, as long as we all drive clean and respect the rules, I guess the problems that happened in the test race, won´t happen again.

[Cawwa]

Just understand this right. I have nothing to against bringing out the safety car, that is not the issue here. To me it's just another way of making tactical moves.
The question is how you bring some order in the restarts again, to have the cars on the leading lap among themselves and the rest who have been lapped for themselves on the best way.
In Nascar they want close fights so they bring the lapped cars in the inner line and the cars on the leading lap at the outer line, but that's not a good way to solve it for us in road courses.

If you can't solve it, ok ... the lapped drivers just have to live with it and sometimes make some bad decisions of not letting a lead car by the first laps becourse he thought it was fight about positions.

[Dru]

I personally think the rules work... in the test race, some tests/drivers used it as a proper endurance race and were respectful every second of every lap.... these drivers and teams did not cause any problems... it was the people who came in and used this race with a sprint race/pickup race mentality that really caused most of the issues i think (and thnakdgod it happened here in the test race rather than in the first round proper)

I do however have a suggestion regarding the pace car, i think it will be less of an issue at other tracks (purely as BL1 is soo short with lap times) that less driver will be lapped but also in the longer races drivers will be further apart and hopefully with every team/driver adopting the enduro race mindset there will be less SC period and less needless crashes as a result of it.

OK, so my suggestion, take a car that has a speed limiter that way the saftey car can once its picked up the leader at a steady 80kph the problems i saw where very similar to the fuji f1 race in japan, where the cars speed up and sloowed down following the erratic speed of the safe car (BTW no problem with your driving here Kaw :D)

Also this method could easily get the field together in less than half a lap, people can also use their limiter and when the green flag RCM is announce, all people do is drop the limiter>> good idea or rubbish one?

A question would also be to the team managers, how did they handle the race, where they in remote, did they have voice driver communication ?

At Concept, we have both drivers in one channel allong with the reserve drivers but also a 'race director' using LFS remote.

We could in an instant let the driver know when the safety car was deployed, when it was going back in, where the safety car was, what the pack was doing. all things which meant our driver was informed as best as he could be... did or do other teams do the same thing to ensure, safe, clean, responsible driving/race management by their team??

Regards,

Dru.

[DeadWolfBones]

We used the limiter last season and found it to be too slow for league use.

We would love to have a car with a limiter you can manually set, but alas LFS doesn't allow for that yet. :(

[Gil07]

Yep, Ventrilo/TS and spectator software is fundamental. Otherwise your driver will just be lost out there. Helps so much in strategy and also helps the driver to know who he's fighting with, etc...

[Dru]

We used the limiter last season and found it to be too slow for league use.

We would love to have a car with a limiter you can manually set, but alas LFS doesn't allow for that yet. :(


Sorry? too slow? :shrug: why is it too slow, you'll recover the accident in one lap and get the field together quicker.

anything higher than 100kph for a SC is dangerous anyhow?

OR


you could get the field to hit there limiters until the SC can driver around in an FXR and pick the leader up?

[chunkyracer]

If you can't solve it, ok ... the lapped drivers just have to live with it and sometimes make some bad decisions of not letting a lead car by the first laps becourse he thought it was fight about positions.

This is a team event, and we have tools, just like what Dru said about the way Concept manage the race, and like we did also... So if a driver doesn´t know if the car next to him is fighting for position or not is because the team isn´t working well, and therefore they should not be racing in this kind of events, at least if we want a high level of racing....

[BenjiMC]

Sorry? too slow? :shrug: why is it too slow, you'll recover the accident in one lap and get the field together quicker.

anything higher than 100kph for a SC is dangerous anyhow?

OR


you could get the field to hit there limiters until the SC can driver around in an FXR and pick the leader up?

In fact, in real life SCs usually drive around 70 mph, which is something like 120 kph i think. So we are actually a tad slower still :). The problem with pit limiters is:

1. You have to monitor if everyone is on pit limiters.
2. It's to slow and tyres get too cold. causing yet more incidents at T1.

[Dru]

This is a team event, and we have tools, just like what Dru said about the way Concept manage the race, and like we did also... So if a driver doesn´t know if the car next to him is fighting for position or not is because the team isn´t working well, and therefore they should not be racing in this kind of events, at least if we want a high level of racing....


Exactly

In the race for instance under SC - we were radioing our drivers and saying these sorts of things.


You are 11th, the car in front is a lapped car, 1oth is in front of him.
You are under blue flag as you have 2 lead cars behind you. 12th is the car behind them.

This sort of information is very eashy to get from LFS remote :D

[DeadWolfBones]

In fact, in real life SCs usually drive around 70 mph, which is something like 120 kph i think. So we are actually a tad slower still :). The problem with pit limiters is:

1. You have to monitor if everyone is on pit limiters.
2. It's to slow and tyres get too cold. causing yet more incidents at T1.

Yep. However, it might be possible to use the limiter only for the SC, which might eliminate some of the accordion effect.

The only problem then is, as you said, the quickness with which the tires cool off.

[DeadWolfBones]

btw, I encourage everyone who can to use the IRC channel. It's a lot easier to have some of these sorts of discussions there.

...though I guess the forum does have the added bonus of recording everything we say on it.

Anyway, #IGTC @ gamesurge: guaranteed to be a good time (or maybe not).

[Kirill.D]

Yes we (c4Racing) used voice communication (Skype) and remote. When i was driving, 2nd driver was informing me about the situation on track and warning me, when he took over, i did that job. Usually for this kind of events we have team leader doing the Race Control function and one reserve + 2nd driver helping and one driving.
Thanks to teammate i managed to avoid couple of crashes that could happen if i wouldnt be informed by him.

I also encourage all to use voice communication and put someone from your team as Race Control to inform you.

[Kdovi]

Yes we (c4Racing) used voice communication (Skype) and remote.

It's OT but I would recommend you NOT to use Skype - from my experience it lags a lot. Use TeamSpeak or Ventrillo instead while playing LFS.
We were quiet most of the time on TS because of Shaggy :D

[niall09]

It's OT but I would recommend you NOT to use Skype - from my experience it lags a lot. Use TeamSpeak or Ventrillo instead while playing LFS.
We were quiet most of the time on TS because of Shaggy :D

I thought it was me that told ye all to shut up, not shaggy :razz:

[Kirill.D]

Actually we know that, we tested it before in smaller races, and our connection was great. We don't like TS cause of poor voice quality. We haven't tested Ventrilo yet, maybe try this thing.

[Lotesdelere]

I would recommend you NOT to use Skype - from my experience it lags a lot.
Yep, very true :nod:


We don't like TS cause of poor voice quality.
Use the Speex codec ;)

[The Moose]

We haven't tested Ventrilo yet, maybe try this thing.

Ventrillo is far better than Teamspeak sound quality wise. (in my experience anyway)

[DeadWolfBones]

Use the Speex codec ;)

...or Ventrilo. :D

[Kdovi]

I thought it was me that told ye all to shut up, not shaggy :razz:

I blame Shaggy anyway :chair:
btw. So "my" (no.16, lap 79 or 80) DT penalty was for overtaking under full course yellow? (just wanna be sure)

[BenjiMC]

I blame Shaggy anyway :chair:
btw. So "my" (no.16, lap 79 or 80) DT penalty was for overtaking under full course yellow? (just wanna be sure)

yes

[niall09]

yes

What about lap 83?

[BenjiMC]

What about lap 83?

afaik only on DT was given. I think an SG was given to your second car also

[niall09]

Well on the stats, it says we completed 2 DT penalties :shrug:

Lap 80: Drive through completed
Lap 83: Drive through completed

[BenjiMC]

hmm, i dunno. Maybe it was given during an SC period or something? Best to check the replay.

[Gil07]

Did you drive too fast in the pits? :razz: