IGTC 2008 Season Car Balancing

[DeadWolfBones]

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4289/igtccropzw7.png

Hello drivers!

After careful deliberation and consideration of the results of the 24 Hours of Aston GP Masters of Endurance race and the IGTC pre-season test race, the IGTC admins have decided to use the MoE spec +15kg ballast for the FZR. The FXR and XRR will remain unpenalized.

[srdsprinter]

Cool. Sounds ok by me.

Edit -> Shenanigans!

[danowat]

Doesn't sound ok to me, but there you go, I don't make the rules.

[R.Kolz]

We had hoped for a FXR=0kg - XRR=+10kg - FZR=+25kg solution but it doesn´t matter. We´ll just use the SC periods to catch up again..:nod:

[Gil07]

Is this really needed?.. :( Why not just let it stay how it was? If FZR is faster, it's not like you can't choose to drive that car... It's already harder because of the gearbox, also it can do shorter stints... :shrug:

[danowat]

Thats my take on it, it's not like using th FZR has an unfair advantage, because everyone can use it.

Like you say, it's already tougher to drive, and has a gearbox handicap, so quite why the need to handicap it more is needed I don't know.......

[srdsprinter]

Actually I've really got to question the logic on the OP. You say the reasoning is that the 3rd fastest FZR was .8 seconds ahead of the XRR on a FZR-dominant track. Where the lap times were ~2:40.

2:40 = 160 seconds

.8 / 160 = 0.005

0.005 = 1/2 a Percent.
With Significant digits from your own numbers, that advantage is exactly Null (correct me if I'm wrong).

This on a track that Favors the FZR (coming from OP)? That's Absurd beyond belief. It's going to get Murdered on the XRR tracks.

Therefore I retract my previous statement and hereby pronounce Shenanigans!

[AstroBoy]

You say the reasoning is that the 3rd fastest FZR was .8 seconds ahead of the XRR on a FZR-dominant track. Where the lap times were ~2:40.

2:40 = 160 seconds

.8 / 160 = 0.005

0.005 = 1/2 a Percent.
On a track that Favors the FZR (comming from OP)? That's Absurb beyond belief. It's going to get Murdered on the XRR tracks.

Therefore I retract my previous statement and hereby pronounce Shenanigans!

I think my head exploded

[N I K I]

We had hoped for a FXR=0kg - XRR=+10kg - FZR=+25kg solution but it doesn´t matter. We´ll just use the SC periods to catch up again..:nod:
You still can change to FZR :scratchch

__________________
IMO, cars are perfectlly balanced, but thing is that all best drivers (teams) take FZR and those ppl who left in XRR just can't get it going as fast as car really can. Than on 24h combo, where FZR has been dominant car in X10 (0.7 sec) faster than XRR.

With default cars, difference is 0.5 sec, but since MoE admins from to me unknown reason just like XRR more they have decided to give FZR penalty. In first it was 30kg, than down to 25kg than to 20kg and finally to 15kg.

With 15kg FZR is only 0.1 sec faster. If we remember good old X10 balance, where cars were perfectly equal, and gap on that track was 0.7 and now it's only 0.5 (default) why should we give penalty to FZR?

FZR doesn't deserve penalty for being most used car!

Infact, I will give you one great example. ALMS, real enduro champ. Penske Porsche and Audi R10. Audi is always faster than Porsche, but Porsche is just like XRR, does longer stints; has more grip, but less power.
In ALMS just like in IGTC, SC is nothing strange. So longer stints don't pay out always, but hey did they gave penalty to Audi for that: NO!
Even in MoE it's hard to use full potencial of XRR. You may ask why, it's because of Disconnects and shift+P situations.

I don't know how MoE admins, still blindly believe that 15kg is right :\
IMO, they will use BL round also to confirm they are right. And again FZR was faster there in X10...

[DeadWolfBones]

With 15kg FZR is only 0.1 sec faster. If we remember good old X10 balance, where cars were perfectly equal, and gap on that track was 0.8 and now it's only 0.5 (default) why should we give penalty to FZR?

If you'll examine the OP more closely, you'll find that that's not true. Bawbag was within .1sec, yes, but the next closest XRR driver was Jonesy at .5sec back. Bawbag was in fact the only XRR driver to get into the 38s. The third fastest XRR driver only managed a 39.4, whereas the top 9 FZRs had PBs all within the 38.4-38.7 range. Clearly Ray and to a lesser extent Joona are outliers here.

I understand that you rate the FZR drivers more highly on the whole than the XRR drivers, which is a matter of opinion, but even if this is so, the gap in performance between those non-Bawbag/Jonesy XRR drivers isn't that large.

Infact, I will give you one great example. ALMS, real enduro champ. Penske Porsche and Audi R10. Audi is always faster than Porsche, but Porsche is just like XRR, does longer stints; has more grip, but less power.

These cars are also in different classes, not the same class. Poor analogy.

I don't know how MoE admins, still blindly believe that 15kg is right :\
IMO, they will use BL round also to confirm they are right. And again FZR was faster there in X10...

We don't blindly believe. We look at the evidence, which you seem to have a hard time doing.

[DeadWolfBones]

Furthermore, I'll state that the XRR's tire wear advantage doesn't really come into play in the IGTC, since the races are only 4 hours long and thus all cars will certainly require 3 pit stops. Not to mention that SC periods will probably prevent the four full stints being run in most cases.

[Gil07]

I still don't get the need to re-balance. These are the cars we have like this... If one car is so clearly better, what's there to stop you from picking it? Balancing is just unnecessary hassle imo.

[DeadWolfBones]

I still don't get the need to re-balance. These are the cars we have like this... If one car is so clearly better, what's there to stop you from picking it? Balancing is just unnecessary hassle imo.

Because we don't want a single car series.

[srdsprinter]

We don't blindly believe. We look at the evidence, which you seem to have a hard time doing.

That at a track favoring the FZR, the car's advantage over 1 lap is .5% in the most favoring of circumstances (.1 vs .5 vs .8 second FZR advantage).

That is your "evidence". Which coincidentally will show Huge reversal of Far more than .5% at XRR tracks.

Shenanigans!

[N I K I]

If you'll examine the OP more closely, you'll find that that's not true. Bawbag was within .1sec, yes, but the next closest XRR driver was Jonesy at .5sec back. Bawbag was in fact the only XRR driver to get into the 38s. The third fastest XRR driver only managed a 39.4, whereas the top 9 FZRs had PBs all within the 38.4-38.7 range. Clearly Ray and to a lesser extent Joona are outliers here.

Joona failed. Look at quali, Ray again 0.1 too. And i've said that all good drivers are in FZR but Ray, and Joona when he is in the mood.

These cars are also in different classes, not the same class. Poor analogy.
Im just giving example that penalty is not normal thing in real life. Go look at Le Mans series, same thing......

We don't blindly believe. We look at the evidence, which you seem to have a hard time doing.
I've just given you evidence, but you just don't want to see it.

[Gil07]

Because we don't want a single car series.

FXR will still be chosen because of the reasons where it is chose for ;) And there surely won't be much less XRRs than last year, as there was only 1 ;)

[DeadWolfBones]

Ok, here's the deal:

These restrictions WILL be in effect for the Feb. 9 test race. All teams must attend if at all possible.

We will use the test race, on top of its already existing purpose, to test these restrictions for the IGTC field. After the test race we will consider the results and give you final word on the balancing within a week. Car model changes will be accepted after the final balancing is delivered.

"Sandbagging" during the test race will be closely scrutinized, so please don't try to mess around with the results. A balanced series is good for everyone.

Thanks.

[srdsprinter]

Curious:

You know how this balance works at a FZR track. How about doing the test race at Westhill to see how it works at an XRR track?

Then you'd have both sides (as the ballast is constant for the full season)... :shrug:

[DeadWolfBones]

Curious:

You know how this balance works at a FZR track. How about doing the test race at Westhill to see how it works at an XRR track?

Then you'd have both sides... :shrug:

We will be taking into account the FZR advantage when assessing the test race results, don't worry.

We'd like to keep the test race at BL1 to give the new teams more time to prepare for that combo, since it starts the season.

[R.Kolz]

Ok, here's the deal:

These restrictions WILL be in effect for the Feb. 9 test race. All teams must attend if at all possible.

We will use the test race, on top of its already existing purpose, to test these restrictions for the IGTC field. After the test race we will consider the results and give you final word on the balancing within a week. Car model changes will be accepted after the final balancing is delivered.

"Sandbagging" during the test race will be closely scrutinized, so please don't try to mess around with the results. A balanced series is good for everyone.

Thanks.

I really hope this , for the first time in 2008, gets the FXR into the balancing discussion. It would only be fair.

Or isn´t there anything to add to this:

"The FXO GTR is a great car for somebody just getting used to the extra power offered by the GTR cars or for somebody who just wants to have some fun in the GTR class, but if you want wins and don't like long races you have to move to one of the rear-wheel drive GTR cars."

Found here:
http://www.lfs.net/?page=contents&car=fxo_gtr

I couldn´t agree more - a balanced series is good for everyone, like you already have stated.

[Gil07]

"The FXO GTR is a great car for somebody just getting used to the extra power offered by the GTR cars or for somebody who just wants to have some fun in the GTR class, but if you want wins and don't like long races you have to move to one of the rear-wheel drive GTR cars."

That just about sums up the FXR imo.

[R.Kolz]

That just about sums up the FXR imo.

Looks like this is the common oppinion as well. Np, makes it even sweeter to be able to beat you. :nod:

[Gil07]

Heh, if it was only me you were racing against you'd have an easy task ;)

[DeadWolfBones]

btw, I swear to god I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says shenanigans.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Vpe98B-IAM

:D

[srdsprinter]

Hey Farva.... What's that resturant you love to go to, the one with all the sh*t on the walls?


:D Liter of Cola.

[[UKR] Race King]

btw, I swear to god I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says shenanigans.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Vpe98B-IAM

:Dlol were can i find that movie?

[banshee56]

btw, I swear to god I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says shenanigans.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Vpe98B-IAM

:D


shenanigans :D :D :D

[AstroBoy]

btw, I swear to god I'll pistol-whip the next guy who says shenanigans.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Vpe98B-IAM

:D

Bah Shenaigans

[MR_B]

hey chaps, i'm going to run through safety car procedures with my teamies tonight and i was wondering if you guys have a setup for the FZ5?
Also, what advice do you have regarding the speed of the safety car?
Is it as quick as possible in the corners and say, 120mph on straights? or is it 80mph all the way round? etc

[DeadWolfBones]

1) Races are started behind a safety car (hereafter SC), driven at roughly 100kph (62mph), in single file. All drivers must leave a comfortable gap to the car ahead during the parade lap.

We will attempt to have the SC maintain this speed throughout the lap.

I don't think we have a set setup, but you might try one of Bob Smith's roadgoing sets.

[MR_B]

62! blimey, that's a sunday driver speed... :)

Okay thanks for your advice. Thought that would have been in section J.

[DeadWolfBones]

62! blimey, that's a sunday driver speed... :)

Okay thanks for your advice. Thought that would have been in section J.

We'll see how that speed works out in the test race, and if necessary we'll make a rules change to up it a bit for the season. :thumbsup:

[racer hero]

Shouldnt the cars be all balanced, so that when you choose a car it is choice of what car you WANT to drive instead of what car is the fastest..?

-Kenneth

[BenjiMC]

It always is what car you want to drive. The driver makes it the fastest car.

The balancing slows down the FZR so it is overall equal with the XRR. Both rear wheel drive and harder to drive at the limit than the FXR with it's 4WD. As has been said, the FXR is consider more of an entry level car. If you chose the FXR you chose it for stability not for race wins.

[srdsprinter]

Has the Car Balancing been finalized?



Yes, 15 kg for FZR

Bummer, but I figured it belonged in this thread.

[DeadWolfBones]

Yes, sorry. We forgot to update it here. Thanks.

[LazLoW]

I don't quite understand how this works.
They both have the same HP per tonne, the XRR has more torque, and does longer stints.
Enlighten me how the FZR is faster?

[srdsprinter]

I don't quite understand how this works.
They both have the same HP per tonne, the XRR has more torque, and does longer stints.
Enlighten me how the FZR is faster?
Lol... Presumably due to its (former) popularity?

In actuality, the Turbo lag of the XRR gives it a rather akward power curve/delivery, and thus the FZR (with its very linear power curve) is a bit faster in some circumstances.

As you correctly pointed out, the XRR can do significantly longer stints (i.e. latest MOE race) and uses less fuel.

And as one individual pointed out, "the 15kg isn't really enough to make that much difference," so why have it in the first place?

[rcpilot]

I'm actually a bit surprised at how well the fzr and xrr are matched up now. Pre-y with all the extra weight the fzr had to carry it really hurt it in the corners and it had to make that up on the straights, now they're both pretty even in cornering and straightline speed.

And the quali results vs. race results are kind of indicative of where the FZR hurts now. With the sequential vs. gated box we got toasted in quali while having a slight advantage in race pace. And although the XRR's still generally lighter on its tires, it's not a walk in a park getting it set up right, especially with the new physics. There are major balance compromises between what I'd optimally like to run and what I ran for the race to get good race pace.

And on top of it all, from the LOTA results last year this is an advantage XRR track in the race, just ever so slightly, but it's there. But that was pre-patch y.

[LazLoW]

Ohh, I completely forgot to sub in the turbo lag part. I knew about the gearbox situation, just wasn't sure how much of a difference though. But, check this.
I did a lap on AS3 with both the XRR and the FZR, both with the WR sets.
I was like O.O when I saw the results because my XRR time was 7.5 seconds faster, before any restrictions.
I'm slightly new to my G25, but that's still quite the result.

[racer hero]

Ohh, I completely forgot to sub in the turbo lag part. I knew about the gearbox situation, just wasn't sure how much of a difference though. But, check this.
I did a lap on AS3 with both the XRR and the FZR, both with the WR sets.
I was like O.O when I saw the results because my XRR time was 7.5 seconds faster, before any restrictions.
I'm slightly new to my G25, but that's still quite the result.

LazLow, that is you my friend, sorry. They are very closely matched.

[rcpilot]

LazLow, that is you my friend, sorry. They are very closely matched.
Yeah, that's a pretty useless result considering there's no way in hell they're that off balance.

[DeadWolfBones]

FZR is also generally known to be quicker than the XRR there, by a substantial margin.

[fadeaway]

Enlighten me how the FZR is faster?

Just compare wr's with FZR and XRR on same combo and you'll see..
Take for example AS3:
XRR: 1:40.78
FZR: 1:40.20
That's half of second difference per lap in race.. :scratchch

[Dimitry Gerards]

Just compare wr's with FZR and XRR on same combo and you'll see..
Take for example AS3:
XRR: 1:40.78
FZR: 1:40.20
That's half of second difference per lap in race.. :scratchch

Just because the WR is half a sec faster doesn't mean the race pace is half a sec faster.... reason: FZR is using more fuel then the XRR...

So... if both cars are racing a 1 hour race, the FZR needs to carry more fuel then the XRR... is thus heavier then the XRR and will be a bit slower in comparison. Probably still faster then the XRR, but not half a sec per lap.

[rcpilot]

Just because the WR is half a sec faster doesn't mean the race pace is half a sec faster.... reason: FZR is using more fuel then the XRR...

So... if both cars are racing a 1 hour race, the FZR needs to carry more fuel then the XRR... is thus heavier then the XRR and will be a bit slower in comparison. Probably still faster then the XRR, but not half a sec per lap.
Not much heavier. The gap due to fuel is only a couple tenths per minute on an hour long stint's worth of fuel, and that's at the start of the race. As the stint continues that gap will decrease down to zero as the two fuel loads come closer together.

Now, in general I honestly don't see where this discussion is coming from right now. We've had two races so far, the fxr had a severe advantage going into bl gp, and the fzr a small advantage. This race the fxr couldn't handle the high speed nature of the course, and the fzr's had awesome quali pace but pretty much spot on race pace with the xrr's. You can't just look at two cars' power to weight ratios and compare how they'll perform on a track, there are far more variables than that. (Can't even really work with the current wr figures right now considering they're relatively new and their accuracy is not the level of precision required to look at race paces.) You can look however at how CD and us have been performing relative to each other considering we were in the same car last year and pretty evenly matched. And those figures say that there's nothing to be alarmed about yet. CD had a good 1st race and a bad 2nd race, we had a bad 1st race and a good 2nd race.

[srdsprinter]

Everything you're saying is fine and true; however, nothing you say actually justifies the 15kg FZR pentalty. (also, you refer to FXR when I believe you mean XRR).

Essentially, pre-patch the cars admittedly (by Scawen's own admission) were not balanced, and thus the several balancing changes were enacted to smooth the field.

With the added gearbox modeling, as well as tire changes, patch Y went about creating a level playing field, from the source. The XRR's fuel consumption, tire wear, and sequential gearbox are there to counter the FZR's 1-lap speed.

Exactly as unfounded as you claim this discussion is, We are saying the balance is wrong as-is.

As the ballast is not enough to majorly disrupt the racing, it will go unchanged, and it is an advantage the XRR will enjoy throughout the season.

[rcpilot]

Everything you're saying is fine and true; however, nothing you say actually justifies the 15kg FZR pentalty. (also, you refer to FXR when I believe you mean XRR).

Essentially, pre-patch the cars admittedly (by Scawen's own admission) were not balanced, and thus the several balancing changes were enacted to smooth the field.

With the added gearbox modeling, as well as tire changes, patch Y went about creating a level playing field, from the source. The XRR's fuel consumption, tire wear, and sequential gearbox are there to counter the FZR's 1-lap speed.

Exactly as unfounded as you claim this discussion is, We are saying the balance is wrong as-is.

As the ballast is not enough to majorly disrupt the racing, it will go unchanged, and it is an advantage the XRR will enjoy throughout the season.
No, I didn't mix up any cars. The FXR was seriously quick at blackwood, although it didn't show as much in our league, while the XRR had major problems exiting the now lower speed corners that BL GP is composed of with its turbo lag w/o the advantage of awd. I'm saying you guys have seen two races, with pretty inconclusive results and are worried about the sky falling. We (or I at least) have incomplete data so far as to whether or not the new blackwood is a good representative track for balancing and I know kyn isn't a good representation of your average track.

[DeadWolfBones]

I wonder whether FZR drivers really think they'd be more competitive than they currently are, were they driving XRRs.

[LazLoW]

I currently feel like an ass, and completely forgot about the other two races.
Feel free to go on, but the point has been made.

[srdsprinter]

I wonder whether FZR drivers really think they'd be more competitive than they currently are, were they driving XRRs.

I doubt it, I believe there just is no legitimat reason to penalize the FZR which has no obvious advantages when it comes to race distances.

No, I didn't mix up any cars. The FXR was seriously quick at blackwood, although it didn't show as much in our league, while the XRR had major problems exiting the now lower speed corners that BL GP is composed of with its turbo lag w/o the advantage of awd. I'm saying you guys have seen two races, with pretty inconclusive results and are worried about the sky falling. We (or I at least) have incomplete data so far as to whether or not the new blackwood is a good representative track for balancing and I know kyn isn't a good representation of your average track.

I don't think any of us are worried the sky is falling, well maybe the one guy who thinks the XRR is 7 seconds a lap faster than the FZR :x

KYN seems to be a fairly average track, with SO and FE being twistier, and (other) KY and WE being faster. BW about the same?

I agree with you, the data is inconclusive at best, so why have the added ballast?

[rcpilot]

Pretty much because of this:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35523
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=36838
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=36992

Can't say for myself yet whether or not it really works but it has been argued to death and worked out pretty amicably in the end. 15 kg is only .15 or so per minute which makes it that much harder to judge its effect.

[srdsprinter]

Pretty much because of this:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35523
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=36838
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=36992

Can't say for myself yet whether or not it really works but it has been argued to death and worked out pretty amicably in the end. 15 kg is only .15 or so per minute which makes it that much harder to judge its effect.
Like you said, it remains unclear if it works / was needed at all in the first place.

In my opinion, the patch led to a rush in judgement, "OMG, the cars are back to 0-0-0, they can't possibly be equal!!11!"

The there was an immediate push to race unfounded ballasts, instead of just going through a few races and seeing if any ballast was needed.

Obviously 15kg is such a trivial pentalty (1.2% if the car was 1250kg), that it is out of the realm of having an effect much more than a placebo effect. Except that the spring rates and settings need to be modified.

[DeadWolfBones]

While I appreciate the spirit of this discussion, let me just say here that the balancing for this season will not be changed unless a new physics patch comes out, and maybe not even then, depending.

[srdsprinter]

While I appreciate the spirit of this discussion, let me just say here that the balancing for this season will not be changed unless a new physics patch comes out, and maybe not even then, depending.
Fair enough, but I do find it interesting that in one of RC's links you yourself questioned the use of such small ballast, as upwards of 80kgs effected a LOTA driver by only about a second a lap.

There is more than enough evidence to prove that the 15kg is Not needed just from the last MOE race alone, where an unballasted XRR had a stint of 47 laps (hugely impossible in the FZR) and managed to came back from a DT pentalty (admittedly a truely inspired drive, but the point remains). Add in the lack of engine damage and sequential gearbox, the cars are even over a race distance without any unneccessary ballasts.

[SamH]

I signed up for the FZR+15kg in this season's IGTC.

Agreeing to terms and then trying to negotiate for a better deal is simply unreasonable. So is complaining about the deal you got.

[srdsprinter]

No worries Sam, the spirit of this discussion is appreciated :thumb:

Anywho, its a fairly trivial ballast in the great scheme of things. Warranted or effective, to be determined.

[Lotesdelere]

Time to give a bump at this thread, don't you think ?

[DeadWolfBones]

Yes, I do think. Was just about to make a thread, as you'll see in a moment. :)

[DeadWolfBones]

Cross-posted from the other thread:

After reviewing the available data (such as it is) and consulting "expert" opinions, it's clear to the admins that we don't have the necessary information to accurately and fairly impose any external balancing.

We feel that the master server balancing allows for close competition between the two faster cars, and while it may favor one car or the other in some way, it's undoubtedly by a very small margin. The FXR remains roughly where it was with the patch Y balancing, which we also feel to be appropriate.

Therefore, for the remainder of the season we will use the master server/default LFS balancing. All teams are welcome to change their car model at this point, but the car you race in round six will be the car you race for the remaining two rounds.

Looking ahead, we will use the results of the final three races, and similar results from other endurance leagues to determine how to handle balancing for the 2009 season.

Thanks for your patience over this period of uncertainty, and thanks to the marshals, teams, drivers, and friends of IGTC who helped in our testing efforts.