Dirt on tyres

[nikimere]

Just want to know what everyone else thinks about this....

I think the dirt on the tyres is WAY to extreme. It's a great feature but it's not realistic.
You cant even hook a wheel over a curb or you'll get dirt on your tyres which will make u suffer for the next 3 or 4 corners.
I'd vote for it to be toned down at least 50%

Just my thoughts

[Gimpster]

Simple awnser, Don't cut corners. Dirt happens, embrace it or drive an AWD.

[Lible]

It`S not realistic in rallyX, because tyres wouldn`t get dirty if driving on rallycross track.

[Bob Smith]

I dunno, dirt seems to come off quickly enough. Perhaps it does reduce grip too much, but then obviously it depends how dirty you get the tire. If the dirt bar is quite short then the difference isn't much, it's only when it's fully caked that you really notice it.

Lible - so rallycross tyres never get dirty eh? That's pretty amazing.

[M.Mos]

Agree partly. I think a slick could behave like that. But with normal/super its unrealistic and extreme. Did some UF1 racing as aston/cadet :shy: And a dirty rear wheel needs 1-2 laps to totaly clean up again.

If you ever touched a hot slick , you know its is more like chewing gum. And everything which is forced into the tire will stay there for a while ;)

[Lible]

Lible - so rallycross tyres never get dirty eh? That's pretty amazing.
No, they would get dirty if you go to grass, but when driving ON TRACK, they would not.

[tpa]

My teammate GPunkt happens to be the german RallyX Champion of 2003 and he said that he liked the simulation of dirty tires.

According to him, the loss of grip is about 30% and that it does stay there quite a while, especially on slicks.


Sidenote: They use slicks in rallyx racing, with an improvised profile cut into them, depending on the track... no knobbly or hybrid tires to be seen anywhere on those cars :nod:

[Tillverkad]

I've been watching some karting events, and had a close look to the tires after races. Dirt, grass and stuff really seems to stick into hot slicks as far as I saw and tried to pick dirt and stuff out of the tires.

[durbster]

If you ever touched a hot slick , you know its is more like chewing gum.

It's not something exclusive to slick tyres, even standard road tyres get extremely sticky when they're hot, and would still pick up a load of dirt. Probably a bit less than slicks though ;)

Personally, I think the effect is superb in LFS. I love how it punishes you when you've stuck one corner off the track, and you can feel it :)

[Boris Lozac]

Yea, it is done great.. But depends how much you went into grass/sand.. If it is just a litlle, it would be noticable just in the next corner, and then it would fall off.. I don't think that it is exagerathed...

[tristancliffe]

No, they would get dirty if you go to grass, but when driving ON TRACK, they would not.

So where do you drive on the rallyX tracks then, because they have dirt roads in them.

[DodgeRacer]

I think the dirt on tires feature is perfect, seems to act very much like I would expect a dirty tire to...and with the rally thing, yes rally tires get dirt on them, but it doesnt effect the traction on the dirt, because the traction mostly comes from the knobs of the tires not the friction of the outer surface of the tire, but it would be effect if the groves got filled in...but thats a whole differnt subject.

[Silly]

Duration of dirt adhesion is fine, loss of grip is hard to tell if it's realistic for road tires, mostly because I think the road tires aren't convincing to begin with. It's a great feature though.

They are doing rallyX with slicks, tpa?! Wow, that's kinda cool. "Knobbly" tires in LFS when in the real world people get to use cut-up slicks... :D

Is Lible maybe thinking of autoX? -the kind of mistake I would like to make if I *really* had to. Beats losing car keys any day. :smileypul

[KiDCoDEa]

Just want to know what everyone else thinks about this....

I think the dirt on the tyres is WAY to extreme. It's a great feature but it's not realistic.
You cant even hook a wheel over a curb or you'll get dirt on your tyres which will make u suffer for the next 3 or 4 corners.
I'd vote for it to be toned down at least 50%

Just my thoughts

i know someone that isnt a racedriver like you and requested the EXACT same thing. he wasnt heard maybe you are...
goodluck

[SabersKunk]

It`S not realistic in rallyX, because tyres wouldn`t get dirty if driving on rallycross track.

lmao :)

[Gunn]

In a recent F1 broadcast an ex-driver said something like: It can take several corners before you have any real grip at all, and sometimes a lap or more before full grip returns. This was in response to tyres on grass, if I recall correctly.

Not all tyres and situations would be equal, but indeed race slicks get slippery and stay slippery for several corners or more after getting dirty.

[ajp71]

I've been watching some karting events, and had a close look to the tires after races. Dirt, grass and stuff really seems to stick into hot slicks as far as I saw and tried to pick dirt and stuff out of the tires.

Very true, gravel sticks to slicks when they are hot. I think the effect is realistic.

[Racer Y]

hi. I don't know a thing about real racing, other than I think it's rigged... :)

but I've seen them take a brasing torch and a scraper to slicks that had dirt and crud build up on them, once the car pitted and they reused them later.
I also imagine where there are alot of skids on the track, that there would be a loss of traction at that point.... it seems so with S-2.

but from what I've seen tires, especially slicks when hot, can collect alot of dirt and debris on them... espescially if the driver takes the "scenic route" on the track.

[tpa]

I also imagine where there are alot of skids on the track, that there would be a loss of traction at that point.... it seems so with S-2.


I haven't noticed this effect in S2 and actually quite the opposite is the case in real life. The more rubber lays on the track, the grippier it gets :nod:

[nikimere]

ok i see most people are talking about the length of time the dirt stays on the tyre. i'm not saying that is unrealistic, its probably true (i dunno i never look at my tyres when racing) but the affect it has to the grip of the car is unrealistic. you shouldn't have so much grip loss.
i see some people talking about F1... well this isn't F1, a touring car is much defferent because the car is much softer and dirt on the tyres doesn't affect the handling that much.
it's a great system just a little too much friction lost i think.

[Misko]

Listen to Niki, he knows what he's talking about. :)

Although I got used to it, I too felt theres too much grip loss when tyres get dirty. And after experiencing it in S2 now it gives me creeps every time I see a car put a wheel on grass in any other sim/game or when watching real races. :) For example in last BTCC race at Croft cars were often taking a lot of dirt on all 4 tyres cutting the flat right kink before the very fast right corner, and I was concerened whether they would loose it there, but no, they just kept on racing hard and close as ever. Of course I don't know what drivers felt at those times but from the TV cam I couldn't see them slowing any bit at all. I know if that was LFS I would have to slow down quite a bit or slide off the track.

The section after back straight in Blackwood can be a real disaster if I put a left rear wheel on the dirt on the exit and then everybody else catches me through the next right S turn when I have to take it hmm 10-20kph or so slower. In GTi.

[Rayo]

After seeing that new patch Q doesnt address this specific issue Im forced to BUMP this topic. I know dirt like it is now helps preventing people from cutting grass but it feels heavily overreacted, both in terms of loss of adhesion and duration. On a side note, I think it would be more real to lose the car that suddenly if you are riding the outside curbs on entry of fast turns, something that I think its sort of missing also.

[joshdifabio]

Yeah although i haven't done any real racing it does seem to be too extreme the amount of grip you lose, but i also don't think the dirt actually stays on the tyres long enough.

[AndroidXP]

I think it would be more real to lose the car that suddenly if you are riding the outside curbs on entry of fast turns, something that I think its sort of missing also. Why?

First, we don't have "rumble strips" in LFS but merely smoothish curbs. Second, the curbs often provide more grip than the asphalt because they're so slick.

[axus]

I think that the issue is that if you only a small portion of the width of the tyre goes on the grass, the grip loss is the same as if the whole tyre had gone on the grass. We should have inner, middle and outer sampling spots for tyre dirt IMO.

[Hyperactive]

On a side note, I think it would be more real to lose the car that suddenly if you are riding the outside curbs on entry of fast turns, something that I think its sort of missing also.

Everything happens for a reason. In LFS I can see well what happened if I made a mistake. And understand what caused it. In this aspect LFS is years ahead any other rasing sims.

I hope you are not talking about canned effects.

[TRM.13]

I have a kart and when I go out the track to the grass, the tyres grip bad 2 or 3 seconds, not 2 o 3 curbs.....:pillepall Even with grass in the tyre, the grip is perfect

[axus]

I have a kart and when I go out the track to the grass, the tyres grip bad 2 or 3 seconds, not 2 o 3 curbs.....:pillepall Even with grass in the tyre, the grip is perfect

Does your kart have downforce? And are its tyres as soft compound slicks as the race cars in LFS? A formula 1 tyre is like chewing gum when it is warm.

[TRM.13]

Does your kart have downforce? And are its tyres as soft compound slicks as the race cars in LFS? A formula 1 tyre is like chewing gum when it is warm.


Yes, kart tyres too! Thats the reason why the grip is perfect 3 seconds later than the grass-walk! The tyres are "grassy" but the they "absorve" the grass and the grip is ok

[ZeroDexter]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3345 :shrug:

[Funnybear]

I actually think the Dirt effect is pretty spot on. If not servere enough. Dirt on tyres is a major factor in car racing, listen to any driver interview or read articles on racing. Racing in LFS actually makes me appreaciate even more what 'real' Racers are doing on the track and just how many variables there are in Racing. LFS surely hasn't covered them all.

I do have a persoanl point to this in that those who bemoan dirt on tyres are possible more upset because their 'hotlaps' can't be as hot as they would like them to be. I consider the dirt issue forces me to actually drive the racing car like iut should be driven, with care and consideration for everything. Racing cars might be travelling fast, but unless you look after them they don't stay travelling fast for long.

The Simulation side of LFS is that you need to care for your car and your tyres. A factor which is sacrificed in many driving games in leu of playability.

You can't expect a game like LFS to react in the same way as NFS or some console derived rubbish. LFS demands that you drive correctly. And I think poeple get upset by that very fact.

[TRM.13]

I agree

But.... With less "no-grip" time will be much realistic IMO

[sinbad]

I actually think the Dirt effect is pretty spot on. If not servere enough. Dirt on tyres is a major factor in car racing, listen to any driver interview or read articles on racing. Racing in LFS actually makes me appreaciate even more what 'real' Racers are doing on the track and just how many variables there are in Racing. LFS surely hasn't covered them all.

I do have a persoanl point to this in that those who bemoan dirt on tyres are possible more upset because their 'hotlaps' can't be as hot as they would like them to be. I consider the dirt issue forces me to actually drive the racing car like iut should be driven, with care and consideration for everything. Racing cars might be travelling fast, but unless you look after them they don't stay travelling fast for long.

The Simulation side of LFS is that you need to care for your car and your tyres. A factor which is sacrificed in many driving games in leu of playability.

You can't expect a game like LFS to react in the same way as NFS or some console derived rubbish. LFS demands that you drive correctly. And I think poeple get upset by that very fact.

You presume a lot of things about the way people think. And you're wrong a lot.

Here's my opinion: Racing cars (real ones) frequently run wide, and they do not have to crawl through the next corner, with tiny application of the throttle kicking them into a drift. Bikes run wide too, and they can still crank it right over into the next corner. OF COURSE grip will be reduced, but not by as much as in LFS. They even cut some dusty, gravelly corners in the middle of twisty sections intentionally if they can do it without penalty, because it's faster! I don't think it would ever be faster to cut a corner in a twisty section in LFS.
But what do I know. Maybe I'm just upset because hotlaps aren't as hot as they could be :shrug:

[M.Mos]

I think Sinbad is very right , here's a video which 'proofs' that. Look at car#42 he got dirt on all wheels , and can keep up with the cars infront at the next corner.

mms://vipeurosport.yacast.net/eurosport/2005/08/28/wtcc2_21443_4_224_0_320x240.wmv
btw. video shows Zanardi's first win after his crash.

[KiDCoDEa]

1) time dirt lasts on tyres is obviously way too much. should clear faster. also exponentially (inverted) and that was added per request. but overall it should be a faster process. simple rolling should clean a bit more also.

2) effect dirt has on griploss is also a bit too much. no need to increase grip too much coz the shortned life the dirt will have in tyre after proper tweak (1), will also give the impression u have more grip. important is the exponential drop of the dirt amount.

3) both 1 and 2 were reported several times. its easier to write than to have devs actually implementing the changes. several reasons can assist for this slow process. there is no fault or blame involved.

4) i always find kinda funny experience to be "denied or ignored" on something behind closed doors and when something goes out in public the exact same complains popup from general public. in a way its a complement coz thats one component of testing something, is to represent the general reaction to something. On the other hand its very frustrating to have something obviously flawed pass thru while being listed as tester (filter). this is not my game and i aint even the only tester, much less nowadays. also please note many things are added with the clear conscience they still need a lot work and finetuning. thats the idea behind wip dev and constant patches.

nothing is perfect

[Racer Y]

1) time dirt lasts on tyres is obviously way too much. should clear faster. also exponentially (inverted) and that was added per request. but overall it should be a faster process. simple rolling should clean a bit more also.



Never having diven a racecar, much less thru dirt, I don't really have a clue.....
But wouldn't the TYPE of dirt determine how long it stays on the tires?
and the compound of the rubber as well? and the track temperature too?

For example, if you were to drive a car with those wrinkled slicks thru some
topsoil, you're going to have dirty ass tires. now drive a car with steel belted radials (WHITE WALLS RULE!!!) over a clay tennis court, it's not
going to affect it much

Also, the dirt thing seems to be different for different cars.
Like if I go thru some dirt in the RAC I use... it's no big deal - within reason.
now if I go thru the same amount of dirt using the FZ, well....it loses grip alot more it seems.
yeah I know the FZ eats tires faster and all, but still.

Off topic:
I notice that people from Wales has their own flag now instead of the Union Jack......
I want a Texas Flag Dammit!

[Funnybear]

I still reckon that this is actually a failry accurate simulation. If you use F1 as a comparison in real world racing terms dirt effects the cars considerable. They will actually set up the cars to accomodate dirt if the track shows itself to be faster going through corners by using track extremes. If you watch races carefully you will see corrisponding drops in times after racing incidents but those racing drivers are proffessionals and they know how to race on dirty tyres. But you also have to remember that no race track is ever truly clean. In races that you continually see drivers take to dirt they don't just have dirt on their tyres, they put dirt EVERYWHERE!! You've all seen it in LFS, the guy in front has fishtailed three times across the track, each time going to grass. He should be spreading more dirt than a muck spreader on to the track. You then driving through that collects dirt.

So my point being . . . ah yes, my point. The real life thing. Without knowing the physics simulation at the heart of LFS I can only assume (Seeing how I don';t know everything) that they can't take everything into account (Carbon Fibre puncture anyone?). I still think that people get so upset about the dirt issue is still beacause they can't go as fast and loose races. It's what happens in real llife. The problem being that because most servers in LFS run short races you are not given the opportunity to gain back your time lost . . So in effect LFS has the dirt pretty much there. In my humble opinion.

Which isn't worth much. Seeing how I don't know nuffin.

P.S. Wales still does have the Union Jack as it is still part of the Union. Much as they are trying not to be.

[jayk]

1) time dirt lasts on tyres is obviously way too much. should clear faster. also exponentially (inverted) and that was added per request. but overall it should be a faster process. simple rolling should clean a bit more also.

2) effect dirt has on griploss is also a bit too much. no need to increase grip too much coz the shortned life the dirt will have in tyre after proper tweak (1), will also give the impression u have more grip. important is the exponential drop of the dirt amount.

nothing is perfect

I agree with 1 & 2, reducing either one would solve the problem or reducing both a smaller amount would also solve the problem. Having had my car on the track with slicks last weekend, and unfortunately going off into loose dirt/gravel/grass, I can say that the loss of grip afterwards is much less drastic in real life. I drove off-line for 2-3 corners and everything was back to normal.

For those saying that people are just upset because it hurts their hotlaps, I'd say that I'd much rather be able to actually concentrate on the line and vehicle dynamics than the finicky traction problems that affect LFS.

I've said it before and will hopefully not say it many more times after the physics patch, but if real cars drove like the ones in LFS nobody would ever survive a race.

[tristancliffe]

I like it as it is, although it if was made more accurate (i.e. inner middle outer section) then I wouldn't complain.

I find that with dirty tyres my corner speeds are only about 10mph slower, but as we're all competative we hate seeing any time being lost. In fact, if you have the sense to remember your tyres are dirty, you don't lose THAT much time...

[sinbad]

I like it as it is, although it if was made more accurate (i.e. inner middle outer section) then I wouldn't complain.

I find that with dirty tyres my corner speeds are only about 10mph slower, but as we're all competative we hate seeing any time being lost. In fact, if you have the sense to remember your tyres are dirty, you don't lose THAT much time...


Of course you can minimise the impact, just like you can "work around" the dirty air eccentricty by not getting close in a corner, and then hyper-drafting them on a straight. I'm not sure you're using this as a reason to leave it as is, but if you are it's not a good one.

Basically I don't think it represents the real effect accurately. It's almost like the devs were worried people wouldn't notice it, and cranked up something by 25% or so to make sure they did, same goes for slipstream and dirty air.

^IMO

[Vykos69]

I like it as it is, although it if was made more accurate (i.e. inner middle outer section) then I wouldn't complain.

I find that with dirty tyres my corner speeds are only about 10mph slower, but as we're all competative we hate seeing any time being lost. In fact, if you have the sense to remember your tyres are dirty, you don't lose THAT much time...If you like to stay LFS as it is, you are wrong here :smileypul

[FPVaaron]

No, they would get dirty if you go to grass, but when driving ON TRACK, they would not.

So what you're saying is that when a rally cross driver drives through dirt and mud his tyres will come out totaly spotless?

[tristancliffe]

Maybe I am wrong, but be that at it may (I'm quite accustomed to being wrong), I still the effect of dirt on tyres is within my limits of tolerence. Sure, it might be more realistic a touch less, but only a smidgen.

As for the slipstream, I think you gain too much speed from it, but it's length is about right. As for dirty air, I think it should promote more understeer than the current oversteer.

But to be honest each scenario is actually pretty damn close. It's just very fine tuning really, and not totally off.

imo of course.

[Fetzo]

My teammate GPunkt happens to be the german RallyX Champion of 2003......


he is the reigning Champion of 2005 actually too ;).

but ontopic:

i agree that the effect of dirt on the tyres seems not to be realistic. if this is about the intensity of the effect or about the length of it, i don't know.

[DasBoeseC]

Mahlzeit.....

I think the system is not bad.....but it needs tweaking ;)

There are quite some factors that have an influence on this whole matter.....

- tyre compound
- tyre temperature
- tyre surface (maybe)
- type of dirt

I really think the effect is a bit exagerated at the moment.....but I am sure it will be enhanced ;)

CU, Sebastian

[FlintFredstone]

I like it as it is, although it if was made more accurate (i.e. inner middle outer section) then I wouldn't complain.

I find that with dirty tyres my corner speeds are only about 10mph slower, but as we're all competative we hate seeing any time being lost. In fact, if you have the sense to remember your tyres are dirty, you don't lose THAT much time...

Theres another problem adding to this and schofei has said it, im practicing Westhill int (FOX) and they are all pretty fast corners and sometimes you run wide, the problem is if you get say your left hand tyres dirty, turning right you rightly understeer but turning left you get a lot of oversteer, so much that it can be virtually imposible to turn left, the way to ensure you turn left is to get the right tyres dirty too, then instead of crawling 60% speed going right i can go 90% right, strange behaviour dont you think?

Troy

[Hatemaker]

No, they would get dirty if you go to grass, but when driving ON TRACK, they would not.

Have you ever driven a RallyX race, or at least seen one on the television? IT'S FULL OF DIRT! TIRES GET DIRTY IN DIRT!

wow...

Oh, and I'm sorry that my post is a lil late... but I just now read that silly comment.

[Gabkicks]

I think Sinbad is very right , here's a video which 'proofs' that. Look at car#42 he got dirt on all wheels , and can keep up with the cars infront at the next corner.

mms://vipeurosport.yacast.net/eurosport/2005/08/28/wtcc2_21443_4_224_0_320x240.wmv
btw. video shows Zanardi's first win after his crash.


damn.... that video really says everything.. recovering that quickly isnt really possible in lfs:shrug:

[no_one]

I think there is sometimes dirt where there shouldn't be too. Like on the left-right-left on the Westhill track, if you cut across the concrete too much you get dirty tyres, but most people do so if there was dirt there it should be cleaned up within a few laps.

[bLaCk VaMpIrE]

i only don't like the way they get dirty.
on the way down on cadet.. just a little touch on the grass and the tyre is as dirty as it can get. its okay that it gets that dirty, but not in that time.

[axus]

Yes - it can be very annoying, comming out of a corner and clipping the grass the tinyest bit with 1/10th of the tyre's width and then the tyre is so dirty that the next corner you either understeer or spin depending on which tyres get dirty. Also, most tracks have gravel pits and their texture also contains some grass. Going on grass that is on the gravel texture has the same effect as gravel itself - very very sticky. So one small touch of the grass out of a fast corner (because gravel is usually on the outside of fast corners or corners at the end of long straights) and you are toast. :shrug:

[nikimere]

I still reckon that this is actually a failry accurate simulation. If you use F1 as a comparison in real world racing terms dirt effects the cars considerable.
You cant compare LFS with F1! lol!
If we had an F1 simulation then you could, but we dont. Dirt effects F1 cars more than touring cars because they use and need so much grip for the cornering speeds involved.
The system we have is great but we need the dirt to last less time on the tyres and not have as much an effect on the handling.
The video says it all. There is very little change in handling when you've gone through the dirt in a RL car.

[NotAnIllusion]

I think the effect of dirt on tyres is exaggerated. It only needs a tiny bit of the tyre to touch the grass/gravel/sand/w/e and in the next corner, going 60 km/h with almost no steering input, the car goes sideways as if it were on ice.

I'd like to see the tyres have different sections that get dirty (e.g. outside, centre, inner), and the effect be reduced especially at lower speeds. As it stands, LFS is only at alpha stage and I'm confident this will be looked at sooner or later. Until then, stay on the track! :D

[Funnybear]

I just watched that video. I might have to completley change my stance on this situation. Let me think this through.

Now, Beemers are rear wheel drive. It was the last corner, he had nothing to loose. He lost at least one place, potentially two if you take that he could have stuck the last corner and made the lead. TC's run quite high downforce on most tracks and not knowing what track that was I'm assuming that they are running a bit of downforce. Looking at the real world physics working (Spring compression, curb bouncing, (And thats another thing) tyre flex) Its actually nothing like LFS. There is also the surface to take into consideration, compacted mud. Dirty asphalt.

God.

I dunno what to think anymore.

Having actually gotten my times down to a "best of the rest" competiveness I am actually undestanding the dirt issue a little more. Possably the problem lies less with the actuall dirt issue than with the descrepancy of controllers and setups. If everyone was to run EXACTLY the same setup all using mouses, would dirt play such an important factor?

My new stance is, i think, that as an overall package LFS is the best simualation of racing driving I have played, probable due to the very fact that dirt, downforce, fuel etc actually play such a large part in the handling of the car. But the cars don't react the way I would expect them too. Don't feel heavy enough and, yes, I now think they carry their dirt for too long.

Converted.

P.S. the 'and another thing' was about curbs. They really don't behave how I would expect and see cars use the curbs in real life situations. In fact in LFS I try and avoid every curb I see becuase of the way it unsettles the car. I have done a bit of driving on track and you can use that figit that curbs give you to move the car around, but in LFS they just swallow you up and spit you out. Facing backwards. With the rest of the pack getting up close and personal with your bonnet. Hmmmmm. Is there another thread for a curbs rant?

[sinbad]

P.S. the 'and another thing' was about curbs. They really don't behave how I would expect and see cars use the curbs in real life situations. In fact in LFS I try and avoid every curb I see becuase of the way it unsettles the car. I have done a bit of driving on track and you can use that figit that curbs give you to move the car around, but in LFS they just swallow you up and spit you out. Facing backwards. With the rest of the pack getting up close and personal with your bonnet. Hmmmmm. Is there another thread for a curbs rant?

There's a few curbs that are like that, like those in the last section of Kyoto National, but most are ok if you respect them (and don't drive the "I'd rather be on my roof than on 4 wheels" XFGTR).

[M.Mos]

I thought about this some time. And i think, the griploss with fully dirty tires is fair but it last way,way to long. The tire should loose massive dirt when rejoining the track in short time. And by short time i mean something like 2-4 wheelrotations. After these 2-4 wheelrotations there should only be a small amount of dirt on the tire, which should be hardly noticeable. The rest of dirt should go away within "some corners".

Road normals should loose more dirt (all dirt?) after 2-4 Wheelrotatios then slicks.

What you think?

[Funnybear]

from a programming standpoint how does that work (ratio wise as regards to the wheel rotation thing)? Are there difficulties in the tuning of 'dirt'. Does anyone know if this is an issue that the Devs are looking at or even consider important?

[Cue-Ball]

I think that the devs would consider any issue that gets this much attention important. I firmly believe that they want to make the best sim on the market, and if the users are asking for a feature/change then they most definitely consider it.

I'd be shocked if Scawen doesn't change this (along with general grip levels, aero changes, etc) in the next physics patch. I can't wait! :thumb:

[Woz]

I thought about this some time. And i think, the griploss with fully dirty tires is fair but it last way,way to long. The tire should loose massive dirt when rejoining the track in short time. And by short time i mean something like 2-4 wheelrotations. After these 2-4 wheelrotations there should only be a small amount of dirt on the tire, which should be hardly noticeable. The rest of dirt should go away within "some corners".

Road normals should loose more dirt (all dirt?) after 2-4 Wheelrotatios then slicks.

What you think?

2-4 wheel rotations, so you think all the dirt should be off the tires within a few feet of the car joining the road. What do you base this one? Have you ever felt the surface of a real racing slick when its cold? (Even cold they are soft and sticky, hot the grid and other shite they would pick up would go into the tire surface.

I dont know how good LFS is with the dirt model but I know this. Before dirt on tires people would cut corners and be off the track wide to get the best speed through any given corner. With tire dirt enabled people tend to drive ON the track just like people do IRL.

Too many people have this hotlap/sprint race mentality and give up after they make a mistake or have dirt on their tires which might slow them slightly. Dirty tires is part of racing and YES it will make you slower through corners.

Personally I cant wait for the racing line to be implemented so that if you go off the line you pick up dust from the area of the track that is not clean or you hut the rubber marbles that will be off the line in the braking zones etc.

[geeman1]

2-4 wheel rotations, so you think all the dirt should be off the tires within a few feet of the car joining the road. What do you base this one? Have you ever felt the surface of a real racing slick when its cold? (Even cold they are soft and sticky, hot the grid and other shite they would pick up would go into the tire surface.

He was talking about road normal, which is not a slick tyre.
I kind of agree with all of you. I feel that Slick tyres aren't that far from real life now. But the problem is more with the road tyres. I don't know about you, but in real life when I drive over dirt and return to asphalt, my traction is little or not at all affected by the dirt. Also take a look at rally driving when they are driving a asphalt rally, just look at how much they are cutting on the dirt in the sides of the roads.

[M.Mos]

2-4 wheel rotations, so you think all the dirt should be off the tires within a few feet of the car joining the road. not all dirt , read again.

Have you ever felt the surface of a real racing slick when its cold? (Even cold they are soft and sticky, hot the grid and other shite they would pick up would go into the tire surface. Sure did i touched my slicks which i use on trackdays. Have you ever tryed to clean a hot dirty slick with your hand? You would be surprised how easy dirt goes off. Grass and sand can be removed with a wipe of your hand. Some smaller stones which are stuck in the slick, needs more force to remove, but you don't need a screwdriver or something. But pieces of rubber that you picked up needs some force to be removed, especially when the slick is cold again. Then you need a 'hot-air blower' and a putty to remove these rubber pieces. Not to mention that there isn't just on compound on the market , 'soft and sticky'.

I dont know how good LFS is with the dirt model but I know this. Before dirt on tires people would cut corners and be off the track wide to get the best speed through any given corner. With tire dirt enabled people tend to drive ON the track just like people do IRL. I think in LFS dirt is faked rather then simulated(faked, like the physics in GTR are faked).
People do drive off the track IRL where it makes sense, mostly cutting the inside.

[spankmeyer]

I like my tyres filthy. :shy:

[Shotglass]

but in LFS they just swallow you up and spit you out. Facing backwards. With the rest of the pack getting up close and personal with your bonnet. Hmmmmm. Is there another thread for a curbs rant?

matter of fact quite often thats exactly what happens
the same flawed collision detection algorithms that send you to outer space if you hit a barrier seem also to be at work when you go over a steep bump in the road (like a curb) your car sinks into the curb and then gets thrown back violently
this is very obvious with the inside of the exit curb in the bl1 chicane (the one that sent so many of our gtis on their roof back in demo) and also with the kerbstones in the autocross arena

[Pitstop]

This is interesting, how do you activate this view. If I am in cockpit view I do not see anything on the tires when I go onto grass etc.

[Funnybear]

What View? Someone removed a post or have you wrong-threaded?

Someone mentioned earlier that they where waiting for the racing line to be implemented . . . Is that going to happen? Now that would be good. But is it workable? Do most of the races last long enough for the racing line to become a factor? How to you ratio in the dirt and marble buildup?
Am I asking far to many questions? Does everyone think my purple car looks pink?

Is there a Dev. wish list somewhere that explains or shows what they are planning for the physics patch or is it a wait and see job?

[mrodgers]

What View? Someone removed a post or have you wrong-threaded?
F9 shows your tire condition, the brown bar raising up in the middle is the amount of dirt on your tires (you wouldn't believe how long it took me to figure that out).

Someone mentioned earlier that they where waiting for the racing line to be implemented . . . Is that going to happen? Now that would be good. But is it workable? Do most of the races last long enough for the racing line to become a factor? How to you ratio in the dirt and marble buildup?
League races are definitely long enough and NEED to have a racing line buildup.

Am I asking far to many questions?
Never too many questions in my opinion. A question never asked is a question never answered.

Does everyone think my purple car looks pink?
I think it just looks gay! Hehe, just kidding bud :D .

Is there a Dev. wish list somewhere that explains or shows what they are planning for the physics patch or is it a wait and see job?
There is a fantastic "progress report" thread on the developement of the developer's plumbing and kitchen project. I do believe it may be the longest thread here in the forum. Search for "progress report".

[Funnybear]

Cool . . . I know about the dirt tyre view. I thought he was talking 'bout something else entirly.

And my car looks Gay eh? Bent as a Butchers hook eh? Camp as a row of tents eh? Makes me look like an uphill gardener eh? Makes me look like I'm a fully paid up member of the Will and Grace Fanclub eh? You saying I actually like maddona and cryed when Steps broke up eh? Ok so the last two might be true, but I am very comfortable with my sexuality. Whichever way it lies . . .

[SamH]

Would this be a bad time to ask if we're going to get marbles on the tracks? :D

I've no issues with the dirt simulation as it stands now, but then I don't have any RL comparisons of my own to offer. Therefore, I take what LFS tells me and assume that it's based on RL physics. If it could be more accurate, I look forward to it. If it's already accurate, I'm happy. I must add though that I've ridden the curb on many an occasion, and expected dirty wheels as a result, and been thoroughly relieved to see that I'd been spared. Definitely, riding the curb, and hooking it, doesn't automatically result in dirt.

I'm assuming that the muck-fizzix takes into consideration the temperature of the tyre, and thus the stickiness of the slick, and thence the resulting glue-factor.

I'd be happy to see marbles introduced (if they haven't already been) as a factor, on tracks that have seen some use. Since we don't have variable weather yet, I guess it would be down to the devs to figure out at which point the track got washed by virtual rain.

I know that getting outside of the racing line for F1 cars can be as bad as getting into grass, towards the end of a racing weekend. For LFS cars, I'm sure the same could be true, to a proportionally physics-based extent. As time gets on, wandering off the well-ridden racing line could be costly.

If it's realism we're seeking, then ultimately I'm sure this will be a feature of LFS. I like things as they are because to me they're realistic. LFS can only BE as realistic to me as my OWN imagination permits, however. In real life I have absolutely no comparable experience of any of these vehicles or any of these tracks, but thanks to LFS my imagination does have SOMEthing to chew on.
:nana: