Is lfs really that realistic?

[Smurfen]

I was playing rfactor yesterday and discussed lfs with a guy.. himself owns lfs s2 and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse. I didnt really know how to answer him. Is he on to something?

got me started to think.. but im still with lfs :D

No im not stupid. Edit: oh wait... already won that award

[MAGGOT]

It's unrealistic because you can drift with a mouse? What a hollow argument. The one you were talking to, obviously, has the intelligence level of a brick.

[Snickers12312892]

Then ask him to drive fast ;-)

drifting isn't impossible with mouse...

[bbman]

I was playing rfactor yesterday and discussed lfs with him.. himself owns lfs s2 and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse. I didnt really know how to answer him. Is he on to something?

If he'd argumented that LfS lacks a "snap" from rolling to sliding state, then yes... To argue it's easier to use a controller that - while unrealistic - provides the means to throw the steering from lock to lock quickly (within a few cm even), is quite frankly dumb...

[Rooble]

I was playing rfactor yesterday and discussed lfs with him.. himself owns lfs s2 and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse. I didnt really know how to answer him. Is he on to something?

got me started to think.. but im still with lfs :D

No im not stupid. Edit: oh wait... already won that award

I never knew rFactor could talk, amazing.

[kaynd]

Actually, with a mouse it is much easier to catch a slide even in isi based games that support it.

From then it is a matter of accuracy and synchronization in order to drift.
This just isn’t a point really…

[XCNuse]

I never knew rFactor could talk, amazing.
I'm more surprised rFactor owns (no pun intended) S2 :thumb:

[Lester.US]

rFactor's a really cool guy. Yes, he has S2, but I usually play NASCAR2003 with him. He uses a pseudonym, though.

[Lester.US]

I was playing rfactor yesterday and discussed lfs with him.. himself owns lfs s2 and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse.
I guess we'll never know until someone sets up a real life drift car with a usb port, pulls the steering wheel and....

[5haz]

LFS passes with flying colours where rFactor fails and vice versa.

LFS has a brilliant physics engine, brilliant online setup, nice graphics without being too much of an FPS Killer.

But, LFS's AI still needs some work, but is quite smooth.

rFactor has the finer details such as night time (and 24hours) more tracks (some nice real life ones, check out the new Putnam Park for example :) ), nicer graphics in some areas, more chance to customise the game (e.g Custom Tv Overlays ad Realfeel).

But, rFactor can be a major FPS killer, force feedback is virtually non existant and the tire models unlike LFS are a bit of a distaster, with a very very fine line between stable and spinning, no chance to slide in most mods.

LFS game engine is new and up to date.

ISI's game engine originates from the 90's in the form of SCGT and is basically been upated and had things bolted onto it, but it shows its age.

A combination of the two would be amazing, because LFS has what rFactor hasnt got, imagine LFS with the 1979 mod and tracks such as VLM's Lemans 1979, oh well seems like everyone is against me on that one, well have to wait n see until after the release of S3 to see if the gods of LFS let us create tracks at least.

Joe ;)

[Mattesa]

I guess we'll never know until someone sets up a real life drift car with a usb port, pulls the steering wheel and....

I've always dreamed of doing this. Take a car and set it up to be controlled remotely from a computer using a G25 or DFP. Place a camera where the driver sits. Then take the car to a track and have at it.

Something like this would go such a long way in exploring the scope and accuracy of something like LFS. Oh!!! I soooo want to do it!!!

[greg_slideways]

Ill help, if i can drive too!

[e2mustang]

this should work with some modifyed thing
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=VBkO8Zo5XEs :D

[BURN]

... himself owns lfs s2 and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse. ...

LOL

to me it just sounds like a stupid argument, just cause drifting in Rtractor is so hard...
Only cause LFS has this great physics and supports steering with mouse is no argument of better or not! (hope ya get what i mean)

He probably just likes Rtractor cause of the mods n stuff... i guess. without them Rtractor, would actually be a Tractor-Sim :D

BTW finding Grip with a RWD is actually the challenge IMO

@5haz, yes would be great, no doubt about that

@ e2mustang :D

[Smurfen]

ROFL @ my writing mistake :D was tired....

[Dac]

why dont you try it in your car? tbh i think its very realistic. the only thing that i feel is a problem is the shear lack of speed sensation in games. meaning when your in a car it feels much faster, not sure if its because of the real danger though.

[mcgas001]

Is lfs really that realistic?
That question answers its self in IMO. Just go play it :)

[danowat]

Is lfs really that realistic?
That question answers its self in IMO. Just go play it :)

The short answer is yes it is.

The long answer is, it's not "realistic" per say, but it's about as realistic as you can get currently, and it's the most realistic out of all it's peers

[mcgas001]

The short answer is yes it is.

Thats what i was trying to say :shy:

[Dac]

The short answer is yes it is.

The long answer is, it's not "realistic" per say, but it's about as realistic as you can get currently, and it's the most realistic out of all it's peers

thats what i like to hear :D

ive been struggling to find a decent racing simulator for a while. im a GT veteran and a bit miffed i cant afford a PS3 for GT5. the only other game i play/played is WTCC 06.

so how does this compare do you think to GT5 prologue?

[mcgas001]

so how does this compare do you think to GT5 prologue?


I have no clue, but i do have faith in Scawen ;)

[danowat]

In terms of pure online racing and car physics simulation, LFS knocks pretty much everything else into a cocked hat.

If it's "car porn" you are after, then GT is the kiddy.

[tristancliffe]

Car Porn + Screenshots = GT5
Handling, Physics and Realism = LFS

Unfortunately, GT5 is utter poo for the latter.

[Dac]

Car Porn + Screenshots = GT5
Handling, Physics and Realism = LFS

Unfortunately, GT5 is utter poo for the latter.

i hear that. i used to think it was the bees knees of realism till i played WTCC. then i found LFS and my word. GT4 feels like Ridge Racer in comparison :D

[xaotik]

Ihimself owns lfs s2 and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse

One could debate that that only proves things relative to drifting more than it does for LFS.

[Dac]

it is entirely plausable that one could recreate the same movements with a mouse. i dont think anybody has ever tried this in a real car though so its not been disproven.

[beefyman666]

Well in a way joysticks have been used for real cars.

Top Gear RC cars anyone?

[RudiTurbo]

I just wanted to mention, that a 13 or 14 year old girl drove a real size RC car (BMW:D) in top gear, and She was good at it.
So tell him to watch top gear, I bet that girl coulda done it with a mouse too :D

[xaotik]

I bet that girl coulda done it with a mouse too

You're only saying that so the Hamster can keep hoping.

[Gentlefoot]

It's unrealistic because you can drift with a mouse? What a hollow argument. The one you were talking to, obviously, has the intelligence level of a brick.

I know a few bricks that might be upset by that comment :)

[SamH]

..and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse...
Hmm.. all that tells me is that using anything other than a wheel in any racing game or simulator is unrealistic. The mouse doesn't condemn LFS at all, it condemns itself as a controller.

Or is the guy's argument that LFS is arcadey because it has mouse support? If that's his argument, he lost it. The plank.

[Smurfen]

Hmm.. all that tells me is that using anything other than a wheel in any racing game or simulator is unrealistic. The mouse doesn't condemn LFS at all, it condemns itself as a controller.

Or is the guy's argument that LFS is arcadey because it has mouse support? If that's his argument, he lost it. The plank.

im sure he have lots more to say. but we had a drift comp to complete so didnt continue :schwitz:

[Lible]

Not going to read all of this, but tell him has he ever tried drifting in real life with a mouse? No? Well how can he tell it's unrealistic? :D

[MAGGOT]

I know a few bricks that might be upset by that comment :)

I would like to apologize to any bricks whom I may have offended with my comment.

[xaotik]

I would like to apologize to any bricks whom I may have offended with my comment.

Too late - they've already told their mason pals; the gears are in motion.

[Pain-less]

He probably just likes Rtractor cause of the mods n stuff... i guess. without them Rtractor, would actually be a Tractor-Sim :D


That's not true. That would require a mod. :nod:

[squidhead]

himself owns lfs s2 and said lfs was arcadish because you can drift easily with a mouse.

and rF is hardcore because you can't drift with a wheel? :shrug:

[Dalibor79]

why dont you try it in your car? tbh i think its very realistic. the only thing that i feel is a problem is the shear lack of speed sensation in games. meaning when your in a car it feels much faster, not sure if its because of the real danger though.
well, it looks slow because of FOV. While you drive real car your eyes see 180 degrees, and ingame you see 90. You can set it to about 105-110 (without distorting picture too much) and get better speed sensation.
If you set camera to see car from behind, and set FOV even more, speed sensation is even more visible, but cars around edges of screen are a lot distorted.
I shoot with camera from passenger seat at 150 kph and zoomed it to match approximately FOV 100 (reference point was to see through camera parts of car i see in game, therefore FOV was right) and afterwards it looks so slow you could run with car.....
So that's why it looks slow - cos it's realistic with unrealistic (unnatural) FOV. solution would be circular screen:razz:

[Dalibor79]

and yes, I think that discussion about rF "reality" in LFS afficionados:thumb: forum is not very thankful IMO....
well i tried rF (few times occasinally, to give it a chance), and didn't "feeeeeel" it, you know, it IS good, but LFS is better.
See, told you, we're biased:D:D:D:D:D

[MRSisson]

Too late - they've already told their mason pals; the gears are in motion.

That is a baldfaced lie. Everyone knows the masons and the ironworkers are mortal enemies.

No 'gears in motion' for you!

[Smurfen]

and rF is hardcore because you can't drift with a wheel? :shrug:


i dont know, doesnt seem so to me.... its just as easy to drift in rfactor with the OBS mod as it is with lfs :)

[RedCoupe]

People spend so much time trying to prove or disprove these racing sims are realistic based on assumptions of assumptions.

It so strange, people want to tell if a game is realistic so they compair it to some other game, or what inputs can be used.

A steering wheel in most cases is simply moving your rack back and forth, why couldn't you move anything back and forth to represent that? it may be strange and take getting used to...but that doesn't make a game unrealistic...Hell some monster trucks have their rear steering operated by levers...

Has no one driven a car before? does it feel like that? You don't have to own a F1 car, or have sponsors to go racing. Find your local club(just because they don't advertise in the sunday paper doesn't mean its not there) and go auto cross. Does the game feel like that?

I will say LFS cars feel the most like my car (race springs, upgraded shocks, HLSD, sways, ect...), and that rFactor feels NOTHING like my car.

Ive never driven high down force open wheel car but I think rFactor does a better job of relating loss of grip/down force with higher slip angles...

[J.B.]

I've always dreamed of doing this. Take a car and set it up to be controlled remotely from a computer using a G25 or DFP. Place a camera where the driver sits. Then take the car to a track and have at it.

Something like this would go such a long way in exploring the scope and accuracy of something like LFS. Oh!!! I soooo want to do it!!!

Yeah, I've often thought about how cool that would be. It would settle the whole xyz is too hard/easy to control discussion once and for all. And it would give ultimate answers as to what we can expect from forceless driving simulations. Let's hope that some day a sim nut shows up who's rich enough to set up something like this for fun.

[lovretta]

I never knew rFactor could talk, amazing.

I'm more surprised rFactor owns (no pun intended) S2 :thumb:


:D:D:thumb:

[squidhead]

i dont know, doesnt seem so to me.... its just as easy to drift in rfactor with the OBS mod as it is with lfs :)

:smileypul just like "Civic is just as fast as a ferrari when you swap the engine and put a hell lot of money into the suspension modifications"

[P5YcHoM4N]

I've always dreamed of doing this. Take a car and set it up to be controlled remotely from a computer using a G25 or DFP. Place a camera where the driver sits. Then take the car to a track and have at it.

Something like this would go such a long way in exploring the scope and accuracy of something like LFS. Oh!!! I soooo want to do it!!!

Well people turn cars into R/Cs, and I've seen a guy do what you want to do with an R/C, so the combination couldn't be all that hard.

[seth st john]

newbie (first post dont kill me) but i figure i should add my opinion to this thread.. note, i only have the demo (until after the next autoX, i cant afford to spend any money on games)

lfs is the one car game ive found so far that somewhat accurately shows what will happen to a car in a situation.. go from the loose to tarmac, with loose tires, most people think you'd get a lot of grip, but the dirt on your tires actually makes you loose a lot of traction, lfs simulates that well, low speed transitions feel decent, and for kicks, my lfs car is tuned to be as close to my real autoX car as possible, and i can definately see similaritys in the handling of the cars, neutral(ish) handling that will go straight into oversteer if u are hard on the gas pedal, kicking the clutch feels similar in the game, high speed braking feels about right..

if you guys want to try and verify my findings, just search online for your cars curb weight, suspension setup, engine hp output ect. and try to match it in the game, its funny how the game is able to somewhat replicate your real car.

i still think the back end of the rwd comes out too easy :) but overall i definately have no complaints about lfs's realism.. its a game for crying out loud !!

[JeffR]

A better question would be is any sim that realistic, and in this case how close to reality is "realistic"? The real world has behaviors that go down to the molecular level, which is beyond what a PC based racing game could hope to model, so compromises have to be made.

In addition, there's the driver experience, since there's no feel of the acceleration forces, it's never going to be the same as real life. Visually exaggerating the roll and pitch responses would help here, but I've only seen this done in a "budget" racing game, Ford Racing 2.

Even in the case of a remote control setup for a real car, it's my belief that lap times would be faster with an external view than an internal view, because it would be easier to judge speeds, the cars reaction, and the cars position on the track, from an external view. An onboard view would be cool, but standing at a fixed position with a good view of the track, or a "chase" view behind the cars direction of travel (one not affected by the cars yaw reaction), would produce better lap times.

[xaotik]

Even in the case of a remote control setup for a real car, it's my belief that lap times would be faster with an external view than an internal view, because it would be easier to judge speeds, the cars reaction, and the cars position on the track, from an external view. An onboard view would be cool, but standing at a fixed position with a good view of the track, or a "chase" view behind the cars direction of travel (one not affected by the cars yaw reaction), would produce better lap times.

Well, you could put your theory to a virtual test by setting up a small track in the carpark of LFS and driving it both with a custom static external view (the autox editor view) and internal view.

If what you say is valid then you should be able to drive much much faster laps with the external view since the internal view is already disconnected as it stands due to all the lack of feedback.

[JeffR]

in the case of a remote control setup for a real car, it's my belief that lap times would be faster with an external view than an internal view, because it would be easier to judge speeds, the cars reaction, and the cars position on the track, from an external view. Well, you could put your theory to a virtual testIt would take quite a while for me to learn how to drive well from an external view, but there are good players of other racing games / sims that do use external views, although I don't know if there are any LFS players that use external view and will mention here at this forum.

The only time I use an external view is when drifting in games that have drifting, since I can't tell the actual direction the car is moving when it's drifting sideways on a track.

On the otherhand, if I had a 3 screen setup with a good peripheral view, I feel it would be better than the external view.

This depends on the players background. An expert radio control car racer is bound to be better with an external view than an internal view because that is what they are used to.

Getting back to the example of a real car being remotely controlled, what "deviations from total reality" would you consider to be OK? Should the force feedback at the players wheel duplicate the forces in the actual wheel or be modified to give better feedback of the grip level of the front tires of a car? Should the sound picked up by the in car microphone be modified to exaggerate tire noises as a means to sense that the tires are near the limits to replace the lack of feel from physical forces? Should the video perception of body roll and pitch be exagerrated to give a sense of the g-forces on a car? If the car has a high power to weight ratio, should traction control be implemented, similar to what is used for Formula 1 and the top GT classes in Europe, Japan, and USA?

Since few have seen the video exaggeration of g-forces, here is a video from Ford Racing 2, which exaggerates suspension movement, resulting in visual feedback of g-forces.

fr2stk.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/fr2/fr2stk.wmv)

[ryan rox4]

i think live for speed is much better than rfactor cause when i try to use rfactor all the writing is gone

[wizedo]

Briefly. Every sim is realistic inside its own physics bounduaries and capabilities.

As JeffR said, the real world goes down to the level of molecular interaction.
Yes, it would be cool if the sim engine could load different objects made of different "materials" and simply make them interact under the known laws of physics. We could have car engines made of the same number of parts as in reality. But this is a job our PCs will not be able to do in real time, nor the most powerful of worksations... maybe a cluster of servers could make it. Maybe.

So, we have to accept the compromise and enjoy the sim that gives back the best feeling, which is LFS (:D).

Another thing are the g-forces. We don't feel anything except for steering feedback. So we don't feel the back sliding out whith our.. back (:D), as occours in realty, nor we feel the consequences of a crash or many other sensations. That leads us to push the limits way beyond a real racing driver would do. If you whatch any top 10 hot lap you'll agree with me.

We race in a world that is different from the real thing, and this world has its own realism. A very close approximation but actually different. Not better, not worse. Just different.



IMO. :D:D

[Stigpt]

I very recently had the oportunity to drive round a international racing circuit (Estoril), and I must say that LFS is very much on the nose. From driving alone, it already felt very close. But from driving in a real circuit - just about perfect. Damn near perfect, really.

The car was a 70-ishhp XFG (Seat Ibiza), road specced. If you put one very soft (with zero ARB) setup on the XFG, it drives exactly the same. The vageness of the steering, the sense of weightlessness at high speed its all there. Also included was the heavy braking stress of having to control a very light rear. And it was as chuckable and as possible to just throw around as in LFS - stomp on the gas pedal at the apex, and off you went... with the feeling you could have gone even faster.
It feels spot on when your driving in your motorway, but feels exactly spot on when your on a ultra-flat circuit with lightly banked corners, rumblestrips, and a very very wide road.:thumb:

EDIT:
Actually, thats the exact problem I get with rFactor - drove the demo, and couldt quite figure out if I was driving a FWD or a RWD car.
Me thinks that since rFactor has the same engine as GTR (simbin) the result is that its prepared for wide slick tyres, huge engines, and rwd. The rest is an adaptation. Thing is, adpating doesnt work. Slicks are VERY different from road normals - slicks have huge amounts of grip, but when they let go - your off for good. They start sliding a tad, but if grip goes - so do you (gtr-style). BUT on normal tyres, or at lower speeds, it just doesnt happen, the tire can slide quite a lot and you can still control the car. The rFactor demo car feels like a AWD(with strong rear bias) sedan with thin slick tires, low HP and huge torque. And it isnt. Understeer on entry, oversteer on exit, and the change is about instantaneous in between. gah.

[Danielw597]

Does that guy drive in real life with a mouse?

[tristancliffe]

Me thinks that since rFactor has the same engine as GTR (simbin) the result is that its prepared for wide slick tyres, huge engines, and rwd. The rest is an adaptation. Thing is, adpating doesnt work. Slicks are VERY different from road normals - slicks have huge amounts of grip, but when they let go - your off for good. They start sliding a tad, but if grip goes - so do you (gtr-style). BUT on normal tyres, or at lower speeds, it just doesnt happen, the tire can slide quite a lot and you can still control the car. The rFactor demo car feels like a AWD(with strong rear bias) sedan with thin slick tires, low HP and huge torque. And it isnt. Understeer on entry, oversteer on exit, and the change is about instantaneous in between. gah.

I'd hate to be caught sticking up for rFactor, but you'd be surprised how progressive slicks can be. It really isn't quite the 'everything to nothing' feel you suggest. For starters, look at the F3000 Hillclimb thread and see them sliding about like the maniacs they are. Yes, they are less forgiving than a road tyre, but not by that much.

[Riders Motion]

LFS is more realistic than RFactor. In RF you need a drift mod to do it, not in LFS. :thumbsup:

[kamkorPL]

I'd hate to be caught sticking up for rFactor, but you'd be surprised how progressive slicks can be. It really isn't quite the 'everything to nothing' feel you suggest. For starters, look at the F3000 Hillclimb thread and see them sliding about like the maniacs they are. Yes, they are less forgiving than a road tyre, but not by that much.

I will also add that one of best european drifters(Paul Vlasblom) is known for drifting on slicks.

D: Some years ago you became an instructor of that school. It was a great distinction for you, wasn’t it?

P: Yes, it was. I kept on racing, and with success; some victories in the Porsche Series, and winner of the BMW Cup 2002. After that year I was asked by the directors of the Rensportschool Zandvoort to become one of the instructors, because they had seen me drifting my race-BMW in the warm-up lap of one of the races….on slick-tires!

Full interview here: http://driftingo.eu/Page/exeConcrete/The-interview-with-Paul-Vlasblom,,36