Custom self-defined 'track notes'... [Archive]

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 18:15

I'm a demo racer, and I don't expect this in the demo, but it would be awsome for when I get my license...

You're thundering down Blackwood straight, and for some very bizare reason, you can't recall exactly what speed is best for taking this corner. Enter stage-left the 'Reminder' that you set at this point on the track. 'brake 100 - slow 60-70mph'

I know it seems silly, and it doesn't apply when you only have one track. But a reminder that you can set, to give a piece of advice about a corner/straight/passing point or whatever would be good. I've spent a lot of time getting my speed/braking points just right for corners, it'd be nice to be able to record it in a note, that pops up at that section on the track.

Jus' an idea. And again, NO, I do NOT expect this in a demo version. Demo version is awsome, and making it any better would be daft. :)

-- Adding:

And it'd also be good for teaching, or teams. The ability to distribute a 'team tactic' file, which has aseries of these notes. Specifying speeds, braking points, A.O.A's and the sort.

Lible

15th August 2005, 18:20

You can make .txt file anytime then press shift+f4 to minimize lfs window and open txt file.

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 18:29

Yes, but that's not very convenient when doing 115mph toward a corner ;)

Lible

15th August 2005, 18:33

LOL, you want an inrace book? That`s not a real thing, that`s really poor idea.

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 18:34

Not a book, no. A pop-up message. Reminder. Akin to the 'rally co-driver', so to speak. And I never said it was a 'good' idea, just an idea ;)

Lible

15th August 2005, 18:35

It would be good idea, if we could have RallyX stages, but voice wil be even nicer.

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 18:36

Voice would be too arcade-y, in my opinion. And you could hardly set that up yourself, customized, unless you record via mic during a race.

Lible

15th August 2005, 18:39

No, it wil just tell it... 60 meters before turn, its your fault if you go to turn at 10 km/h

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 18:41

The problem with something you can't customize, is that it's static for the racing style the dev uses. Somone who drifts in to turns might take them faster than somone who brakes early and accelerates out. To be effective, it has to be able to be tailored to each drivers style and requirements.

Bob Smith

15th August 2005, 18:48

I like the idea of adding text notes that would appear when exiting a corner, telling you whatever you wanted about the next corner. :thumbsup:

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 18:52

:D

Settable at other points, too. Not just for corners. I dunno... Maybe a reminder about what a 'good' split time is at the next split. Or 'You shou lbe doing 110mph by now' type things. Stuff so you can guage how you're doing, compared to what you *want* to be doing. Again, something pre-defined is not good enough... I don't race to win, I race to have a really good race. I don't take t1 at 45-50 like people say, I go slower, to make sure I get around clean. Something like this would have to be customizable.

:D :D

Qurpiz

15th August 2005, 18:56

For me, that sounds a really bad idea. You're asking that some sign should be popping up, saying "Next turn: 80 km/h, gear 2."? That's not really racing-simyish...
Part of being a good driver is knowing the tracks like your pockets, every curb, every bump of it. It would spoil half of my driving experience if I wouldn't have to memorize (that even a word?) all the time that what's coming after the next corner.

No for this suggestions from me.

Frankmd

15th August 2005, 19:00

You could make it with insim... dunno if you can send a message to lfs that only the connected user can see...

Otherwise it would be possible, I just dunno if it is really of any use... maybe on your first lap.

Bob Smith

15th August 2005, 20:02

I think it would be useful for learning the track, somebody could give you there notes, or maybe once you've learnt a track you could make the notes, so that if you don't race that combo for a while and come back to it, you can re-adjust more quickly.

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 20:23

TagForce

15th August 2005, 23:27

Yes, that's one of it's biggest uses as I see it. Learning, mastering, perfecting.

The problem is that when you're learning a track, each next lap you'll be going faster and faster, and quite possibly taking different lines... So you'd probably be spending more time editing your lap-notes than you'll be actually driving the track...

Example: Blackwood, last left turn onto the start/finish straight... The car is the Formula XR... I entered the turn in 4th gear braking a bit on the kerb on the right... My laptime was 1:12.9 at that time... 3 laps later I was entering the turn in 5th gear, braking on the other side of that same kerb, and letting it slide right onto the kerb on the exit... laptime 1:11.4 by then... Another couple laps later...
I shift to 5th gear, move over the kerb, lift and shift back to 4th without braking at all, and slide it all the way through the turn and ease back into the throttle to make the car bite the inside of the exit up the hill...Laptime 1:10.5...
All this in 10 laps... If I had to update my notes this would've taken me 1. ages to figure out how to drive since the time between better laps is longer and I've lost the feel of the car, and 2. at least half an hour because I would constantly have to stop driving to update the notes... By doing it on-the-fly from the top of your head, I did this in less than 15 minutes.

BlackSpider

15th August 2005, 23:32

I agree with you, mostly. Some people are fine with just remembering their speeds/angles, others are not. I know my speeds around Blackwood now, and notes wouldn't help me on this course. But as a guide, to say to somone 'Hey, do you have notes for CourseX that I can look over', and them send you the notes (Like the SendSetup button) for you to see and practice with, until you are comfortable with the track.

When I started, I was taking Blackwood T1 at 35mph, braking at the 50 mark. It wasn't until somone said 'Brake earlier, go faster' that I started getting better. Had I been given some notes on the track, I would've learned that quicker, and spent more time perfecting, rather than learning. Even now, I'm not sure what speed to take certain bends, and it varies depending on car condition, but a guideline - A 'XYZmph works, but not too well' - would be of assistance, especially for those racers who aren't good at remembering every bend of every track in every car, with every setup, in every mode. Notes could help, I think.

:)

Prodromoi

16th August 2005, 12:34

If the main idea of this is more towards learning the tracks and improving your line and speed, then a better idea surely would be for a "racing line overlay" to be extracted from the .spr or .mpr replay file of a race. (The data would be in the replay file anyway, no extra processing during the race is needed.)

Then, you drive the circuit with the overlay enabled. You get a red line from the position of the "ghost car" showing on the tarmac, along with a vector arrow which should account for any drift there may have been in the original lap. A small window shows the original car's speed, gear, throttle and braking.

Thus, you can extract, study, learn and improve your own line round a course, and you can indeed ask someone to see their lap overlay for a given course/car to learn from theirs.

Since a picture is alledgedly worth a thousand words, I've put together a very quick mock-up of the sort of thing I mean.

marsden1002

16th August 2005, 12:50

I think this is a bad idea.

its a sim game, therefor its up to you to remember what speed & braking point to use when doing whatever speed.

We dont have these in cars do we, when going down a long road at 70mph and then comes a corner, Slow Down, Corner to be taken at 50MPH max.

Its a bad idea, everyone would be rather good at driving, and its fun when your trying to beat someone down a long stright and you both miss the braking points, i think it would ruin the Sim element of the game

Takumi_Project.d

16th August 2005, 12:57

this is really lazy guys

Hallen

16th August 2005, 16:15

I am disappointed with some of the comments in these posts. It is fine to disagree and state your point, but most of the arguments above ignore simple facts and in some cases, are downright rude.

It is not a bad idea. It is an idea that has merrits and detractors. Just stating it is a bad idea only proves you have not thought about it.

If you think it would take too much time, or would be distracting... then don't use the feature. It would not be required. Plus, it could be limited to offline racing only.

The "it is not in a real car" argument cannot be rebutted directly because it is a narrow view that ignores all the rest of the things we have that are not in a real car. It does not address the particular issue at hand (see below). However, indirectly, you can look at it as just the same as having a driving instructor with you in the car as you learn the track... something that is extremely common in a real car on a real track.
The "it is not in a real car" argument is valid if backed up with a valid argument. It is not a point unto itself. I think this argument could be applied to the racing line suggestion above. However, this is still an area of opinion that has varies from person to person. I would see the racing line graphic as being too much like a game, and not enough like a simulator. Plus, there would be other, more realistic ways of accomplishing the same thing.

There are so many things in LFS now that you don't have in a real car, it is hard to justify any argument based on that assumption alone. For example, do you have text pop up on your windscreen that says "Sorry, my fault" when someone bumps you on a real race track? In a real car, you can't communicate with other drivers at all until after the race. (Other than throwing them the finger).

Fonnybone

16th August 2005, 16:54

I have to agree with the above post. If you don't like the idea, AT LEAST
have the decency to come up with some intelligent post with arguments
as to why it's not a good idea FOR LFS. When someone makes a post with
suggestions, it doesn't mean LFS will be like that tommorow, so no fear.
This is a suggestion forum for LFS, i don't see how mentionning the possibility
to have an option has anything to do with that SimVsArcade argument (the
purist's last resort, as hollow as Jessica Simpson). Having more free time, we
could go through every single feature in LFS and define what is Sim and what is
not. the funny thing is, 1-a LOT of stuff in LFS isn't that realistic, and 2-a lot of
people would still be crying 'no fair'.

As for the 'notes', it could easily be implemented using the In/Out-Sim data
to get the location of the car relative to the track and using that, displaying
some text on a background (white with blue lines comes to mind..) within
the LFS window. It isn't something hard to implement for a third-party
programmer with a little experience really. Bitblt anyone ? :P

S.Konyshev

16th August 2005, 19:03

I think it'll look like this: Full trothle, 3 degrees left, 30% brake for 5 seconds, etc...

He-he You'll crash while reading it, better practice to learn the track is to drive on it. At first slowly, then faster and faster.

keiran

16th August 2005, 19:36

I don't think it's a good idea because it's not an arcade game. You can hardly call the game a sim if its got things popping up telling you how fast you can go round the corner etc.

If you want pop ups play need for speed :haha: j/k

Keiran

mdmx

17th August 2005, 07:43

Notes are not very practical when goin 200kmh.. it could be a radio message from the pits, telling you pace notes. It's totally possible to do in IRL practicing too. And it is the option which would be available only in practice mode! Not in the multiplayer or hotlapping.

But, im gonna develop a practicing "util", which allows you to generate a track layout showing the driving line & brake/turn/acc points from the replay file.

It makes it easier for a NEWBIES like me to practice track, it wount help pro's at all. That's why i think pro's dont like it. But it does make it a little bit easier to become a pro, or maybe not, dunno. At least it makes it a little bit easier to practice new track.

Firstly im generating normal layout with coils/tyres or whateva to show the line from the replay, then maybe a "ghost car" option. Which of course arent available in the online, or in the hotlapping.

Some may concider those as a cheats, but are they? They don't help your online games at all, they just make it a little bit easier to practice. And reduces the large amount of time needed to be a good player, even a little bit. Not many of us have time to spent 10hours in a day to practice.

I would LOVE to see: Ghost car from replay / Driving line from replay -options in S3. And of course only available in PRACTICE.. those help practicing, which means there will be more good players, which is a good thing for everyone..

Some may say those doesn't fit in the sim.. well.. may be right. Dunno how formula one drivers practice. But with the modern technology, it would be completely possible to see ghost car or driving line from another drive. :) only requires LCD glasses and GPS.

Still, maybe it's too arcade. But it's only in practice. And it wount help anybody who is allready close to WR, it only helps NEWBIES! Why is that such a bad thing?

herki

17th August 2005, 11:10

IMO a rally co-driver isn't such a bad idea (even with voice), if have him sitting next to you (extra weight); would be quite a problem with the single-seaters though.

Qurpiz

17th August 2005, 16:29

IMO a rally co-driver isn't such a bad idea (even with voice), if have him sitting next to you (extra weight); would be quite a problem with the single-seaters though.

Takuma Sato has team-radio telling him what's happening in starts. Maybe something like that? At the starts, there would be a voice telling you where's coming drivers, so you don't hit'em.

(of course, when I'm racing, I'm having ppl passing me from every direction..)

herki

18th August 2005, 08:52

Takuma Sato has team-radio telling him what's happening in starts. Maybe something like that? At the starts, there would be a voice telling you where's coming drivers, so you don't hit'em.

(of course, when I'm racing, I'm having ppl passing me from every direction..)

you can use the pitspotter (here) (http://lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=439) for that :)

himself

4th March 2006, 14:37

I personally think it's a very good idea.

I am trying to improve myself on Blackwood currently and I am aware of mistakes I am making all the time. I think small notes poping up before the corners I have problem with would help me. For example reminding me not to cut the corner or going slower on that one.
It could be even the sound notes from my co-driver like in WRC. A simple tutor telling me how fast should I go and how should I make the corner. It could be limited for example only to practice mode or lessons.

Maybe more practiced drivers dont need them but It would be very helpful for people starting learning to drive.

filur

4th March 2006, 17:58

As a lot of other feature ideas, this one already exists - apart from the fact it doesn't, read InSim.txt :)

NaBUru38

4th March 2006, 18:03

Many of you are saying that these helps aren't real. But what do you think that real drivers do to learn a track?

Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, all of them use racing games (another market for developers - Scawen, give it a try;) ) with special features. Probably they have options like simultaneous replay+telemetry charts, ghost car, ghost line...

That is why games are for - to do things you can't do in real life. You can crash heavily and restart the race, set 200% force feedback, watch the ranking live, instant difference to other players... thee things help to race without helps. Nobody with ten years tries an F1 or a NASCAR, there are karts and promotionals first, where you learn how to take a corner and behave in a car mob.

AndroidXP

4th March 2006, 18:08

Well, in my opinion these notes would only have a use for people who are completely new to the track and/or LFS itself. Personally, I know a track good enough to remember what corner comes next after 10 laps at most, and to be honest, if you really need to read a note to know the upcoming corner's details, you won't be very fast anyways.

Your full attention should go to driving the correct line and interpreting the feedback you get from FFB/sound so you can drive the car at the limit. Actually, that's not 100% correct either, because you shouldn't think that much at all. The fastest times are usually archieved when you start entering a trance-like state and stop caring about the laptimes. As soon as you read something or do some active thinking you're out of that state again mostly resulting in slower laps shortly after.

But if it really helps beginners, why not?

mepresident

4th March 2006, 19:47

Yes very true AndoidXp

Some racers are naturally good. But theese are just a few. All the others like me, wanting to be better at some track have to spend hours practicing so that his racing skills emerge. This means learning every mm of road, pushing every last 1000, knowing evrery points to reset throtle, every breaking spot. And this by the way is racing...this is the best this game has to offer, the true cenario in wich you are under your best time, pushing in the last split, having the mistake free so far, lap, and thinking there is another way of pulling that last turn off.....well sometimes there isn't...so get a grip and get a new lap.

So no need to get in to a serious race before you cand handle this factors.

No notes needed by me...

Sorry

Greboth

4th March 2006, 22:27

I think it sounds good although id change it slightly, more to a telemetry style. For example you race balck wood in the xf gti, first corner i take anywhere between about 42 - 49 mph. You race the track for set amount of laps and afterwards can view telemetry. So you can see on lap 2 you took the T1 at 49 mph where all other laps where slower. Same for T2, T3 etc etc.

I no this wouldnt give you braking points but you could see how fast youve taken toe corner on one lap and then aim for that speed every lap.

To make understanding easier ive included a little picture of what i mean.

filur

4th March 2006, 23:06

Observe my horrid creation :)

Perhaps i missed something, but this was the only way i found to display a local message in multiplayer.

Well, anyway, it's awful, but it almost works. :)

jtr99

6th March 2006, 04:18

We dont have these in cars do we, when going down a long road at 70mph and then comes a corner, Slow Down, Corner to be taken at 50MPH max.

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/SIX/SIX137/036SI1.JPG

I think the OP's idea is a good one. Not everyone will want to use it, but that's fine. The other day I was helping someone out in their efforts to learn Aston Historic -- they were braking way too early in four key places, and it would have been a much faster process if I could have swapped a notes file with them.

Ze_Pistolas

9th March 2006, 03:35