Max Brake force should be fixed

[Bluebird B B]

Hallo,

I always wonder how people manage to race a car with brakes which would be banned on public road, because they can't lock the tyres. I nearly always have to put brakes on the setups before i start driving.

In real cars, espacially with downforce cars, the brakes have fixed strengt. You cannot set your brakes to be less powerfull, because irl you always want to have the strongest brakes possible. irl on race-cars you can set the amount of cooling of the brakes, but brake-heat is not yet in lfs. Also brake-balance an always be adjusted irl just as in lfs.

So a formule 1 car is not able to lock his tyres at topsppeed because the grip is too high but as speed goes down, the driver must lift the brake to avoid locking the tyres because downforce is also getting lower as speed decreases.

In lfs, people make sure they dont have to lift the pedal and set max brake power so low, the tyres will never or be very difficult to lock up. This takes away an important part of racing, being able to just not lock your tyres and in effect use a bad abs system.

My suggestion, make max brake force per wheel a fixed value for every car. Only brake-balance can be changed. Or at least increase the minimum values for brake power/wheel a lot please.

[Gekkibi]

If you decrease braking force, doesn't that increase your braking distance? And that would mean poorer lap times.

[Dajmin]

Is a driver choosing to set less braking force really that big a deal? The more distance you're slowing down, the longer you take to travel the same distance. So yes, lap times become slower.

Surely the better option is to continue allowing drivers to set the brakes the way they like them to fit their driving style. If they're slower because they want softer brakes, I say let them.

[Gekkibi]

Indeed. Theoretically the best braking force is as much as possible, not vice versa (However, that would be difficult to master as the wheels lock easier). So, if someone wants to increase their braking distance by using less braking force, let them. There is no universal best value for braking force it purely depends on driving skills, and because everyone has different driving skills, braking force should be changable in the future also.

Oh, and not-pedal players (I mean keyboard and mouse) would go mad if they can't change braking force, because unlike pedals, buttons are either on or off (However, analog force feedback keyboard would be pretty fun. Maybe in the future japanese invents that one...), and it means that you lock your tires more easily.

[frokki]

But wouldn't those who want to floor the brake do it by re-calibrating their brake axis or button rates(?) then?

[tristancliffe]

The thing is you can too easily tune the brake force so that you can brake maximum safe in knowledge you won't lock up. Usually chosen at the corner where repeated hard braking will save you time, even if that means less than perfect (i.e. more real?) braking elsewhere.

Bit of a cheat in a way. I used to use it SO1 MRT back in S1. My ECCI pedals aren't accurate enough (being slightly pressure sensitive rather than 100% travel sensitive), so I end up having to increase the brake force in 99% of setups.

[thisnameistaken]

If I had a brake pedal that worked a bit like a car's brake pedal then I'd run stonking max braking force. I don't, though. And neither do 99% of you dirty scumbags, so finding the limit on the brakes is too hard and that's why I (and you dirty scumbags) set the braking force to something more sensible.

[Bob Smith]

More importantly (IMO) the brake bias should work properly, and not strip both wheels of torque. Wheel makes "max brake torque" rather misleading.

[GobLox]

I agree - It's currently way to easy (and tempting) to setup brake force such that you effectively have Anti-lock brakes. Actually this is the only reason for it being there so far as I can tell.

It seems to me that much the same way cars have a particular displacement engine that can't be changed; the brakes should have a maximum force that cannot be modified. Yeah I know, intake restriction, but restrictors are used in real life to make class divisions more competitive. There is no way to tune braking force in this manner and varying brake temperatures would make it more or less impossible anyhow.

+1 Good call.

[DragonCommando]

The one thing that will stand in the way for people who don't run lockable pressures later is the brake fade. When LFS develops to that point, having less than lockable brakes means that the brake force will go down even more as they heat up. So braking distance would increase even more. This would kill the people on keyboard.

I think braking force should be locked at a reasonable level, so that pressing the brake to the floor will lock them, but unfortunately for keyboard users, it would make it harder to play.

I drove with a cheap Nexxtech pedal set for almost a year and a half, and I was able to adapt myself to use the pedals well, even with the shakey readings.

[wark]

-1 some of us use KB, and it is not unrealistic to simulate pressing a brake pedal lightly!

[GobLox]

-1 some of us use KB, and it is not unrealistic to simulate pressing a brake pedal lightly!

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

EDIT: I agree that this would suck for Keyboard/Mouse players; BUT! Even if you made it such that adjustable braking force only applied to keyboard-input I bet you'd find that wheel/pedal users would bind a button/key to brake - Perfect braking is absurdly over-powered.

[DragonCommando]

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

Agreed, it woulden't be fair at all.

Realisim is the goal of this sim, I'm sure the only reason things haven't been limmited yet is because alot of tweaking is still being done.

[wark]

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

Any button control rate under 10 is self-injury.

KB will never be better than pedals. It doesn't need to be nerfed, and that's all this is a proposal for.

Anyone with pedals has the inherent ability to dial in exactly the right amount of pressure, whenever. The right amount is almost always different.

If people are wasting the money they spent on pedals and always flooring them, it's to their disadvantage.

[samjh]

You can do that with the button control rate - just like we do for hand-brake and such. Tapping + Control rate = light braking. Being able to press and hold a button such that you get perfect braking everytime is very closely related to the "win" button.

EDIT: I agree that this would suck for Keyboard/Mouse players; BUT! Even if you made it such that adjustable braking force only applied to keyboard-input I bet you'd find that wheel/pedal users would bind a button/key to brake - Perfect braking is absurdly over-powered.

You don't get perfect braking though. It's a compromise at best. If you adjust the braking force for high speed braking, you'll lock up for slower corners. If you adjust for slower corners, you'll lock up everywhere.

In some cars you need to have high button control rates, such as in FBM, because autoclutch doesn't work for it. You always end up having to flat-shift, which requires high button control rates otherwise your revs don't drop fast enough. Using manual clutching with a keyboard is just too slow.

Threshold braking with pedals is a lot easier than adjusting braking force, which is as it should be. So don't nerf the braking force adjustment, because it offers no advantage to keyboard/mouse users.

If a wheel/pedal user can't drive better than keyboard/mouse users for whatever reason, it's their lack of skill which is the real problem.

[GobLox]

Any button control rate under 10 is self-injury.

KB will never be better than pedals. It doesn't need to be nerfed, and that's all this is a proposal for.

Anyone with pedals has the inherent ability to dial in exactly the right amount of pressure, whenever. The right amount is almost always different.

If people are wasting the money they spent on pedals and always flooring them, it's to their disadvantage.

I would argue that flooring a pedal that is calibrated to give just the right amount of braking force for a warm tire is a big advantage and very nearly everyone utilizes it. I don't recall the last time I had a setup sent to me that had braking force set such that the driver could lockup the tires under normal conditions. When you are going into a corner, avoiding traffic, possibly changing gears and dealing with all the other aspects of driving, it's an advantage to be able to smash a pedal (EDIT: Or button) without thinking any more about it and getting maximum stopping power; which is why they invented ABS and Traction control.

I don't have any animosity to Keyboard players and the thought did not even occur to me until you mentioned it. However, this is a sim; I think it's safe to assume the majority of players use a wheel. As far as realism is concerned this is currently one of the biggest offenders - It's just ridiculous.

[spanks]

I do this on most of my setups (this being setting my brake force relatively low)

I have it so it usually just starts locking up one of the tires, usually a front, in the slowest corner(s) on the track.

There is no way, other than audibly and visually to know that the tire is locked up. Yes, the car will react, but since the best we have is ffb through the wheel...unless you have a simulator at home...and to visually react, and adjust the brake pedal. At that point, you've already locked up the brakes for a good amount of time, and probably already need to turn in.

Now, I'm 100% for the advancement of realism in this game. I'm sure I'd be able to cope with the changes if this were implemented, and I'd be on my merry way enjoying the game. I'd probably be much slower however, as my brake pedal is just a piece of metal with a big ass spring behind it.

When this game gets so good at simulating a real car that you can't react to it anymore without having to guess, I think there will be a real problem. The pedal feel is hugely important in a real car...without that, I'm sure people would either underbrake cautiously, or overbrake constantly on a track. If you take out the ability to set the brake pressure, it will be a constant guessing game on how hard to push the pedal.

I might just be babbling incoherently as I am very...very tired, but I hope someone can make sense of this.

This is a game that is directed at the player with a steering wheel. The average steering wheel is likely a DFP or MOMO in price range, with minimal tricks and gadgets. Flappy pedals, average to meh ffb (but pretty much the best we got :shrug:), and no clutch. Already the game is someone passing that demographic (I couldn't be happier with my g25 though :D).

[tristancliffe]

Keyboard technique to overcome this:

press tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap

If used with the correct rates that should allow a near constant brake force at whatever level of 'pressure' you like.

Of course, it'll break your keyboard a tiny bit quicker, but you can't have everything.

[Bob Smith]

LFS still has brake help, doesn't it? Or has that been removed along with throttle help too?

[GobLox]

Yes, it is harder to tell when you are locking up without help of your vestibular system. I usually know if the car is getting squirrelly I probably have a couple locked up. Often I am about to begin a turn-in so if I turn the wheel and go straight I know it's time to let off the pedal a bit.

Also, keep in mind, the brake pedal doesn't really offer any feedback when a wheel locks up - not in any passenger car I've been in. Maybe in a formula?

The upside of this is that yes, it will be harder! Churning out those perfect lap times within a few hundredths of the last one will be harder and mistakes will be made when a driver is overwhelmed or distracted. Just like real life. Driving aids like ABS, Traction Control, and whatever you want to call our highly adjustable brake-force scheme in LFS are good for lap times but not for more interesting racing. Your going to see pressured lead cars lock for a split second mid-turn go slightly wide and lose a place. That's priceless and, I think, shouldn’t be lost to this, possibly unintentional, driving aid.

[Mattesa]

I agree max brake force should be fixed. As it has already been explained, it will affect everybody, not just KB users. Threshold braking and bravery with the brakes is a huge huge huge part of racing IRL.


There is no way, other than audibly and visually to know that the tire is locked up. Yes, the car will react, but since the best we have is ffb through the wheel...unless you have a simulator at home...
You're already doing everything audibly and visually. Predicting when a tire is going to lock isn't impossible. If you find yourself locking, back your foot up a bit, and remember how hard you're pushing for the next go around. This isn't terribly different than in real life. You don't get "G force warning" in real life either.

I think a lot of players (in general, not specifically to this issue) are confusing their perception of what driving is like, with the reality of actually doing it.

[spanks]

I agree max brake force should be fixed. As it has already been explained, it will affect everybody, not just KB users. Threshold braking and bravery with the brakes is a huge huge huge part of racing IRL.


You're already doing everything audibly and visually. Predicting when a tire is going to lock isn't impossible. If you find yourself locking, back your foot up a bit, and remember how hard you're pushing for the next go around. This isn't terribly different than in real life. You don't get "G force warning" in real life either.

I think a lot of players (in general, not specifically to this issue) are confusing their perception of what driving is like, with the reality of actually doing it.

I've raced 7 years of my life so far 5 in a kart, 2.5 in a purpose built drag car.

G-force warning = seat of your pants feel I suppose, which is invaluable...and the biggest thing missing from a computer game

I know the feeling of what the car is doing is deadened in a road car, but when I raced my kart I was in tune with every bit and piece on that thing. No suspension made you feel the kart so well. The brake pedal offered tons of feedback. The critical point was when the pedal got real hard...and then how much harder you decided to push on it. Max brake pressure was as hard as you could push the pedal before bending something and braking it, or your leg was maxed out. With a non-responsive brake pedal you get no feeling in pressure change or any of that.

Also, when you lock up the tires or spin the tires you instantly feel a change...its almost like you just got lighter. Its those kinds of feelings that you lose on a computer, and leave you guessing on what to do.

And once again I'm kinda just babbling off topic about a point I made last night...and its not even that great of one :x

[tristancliffe]

You do realise Spanks that there is no feel in any brake pedal - they don't work like that. Any feel you get is from the g-forces resulting from pedal pressure, not through the pedal. A brake pad with 'lots of feel' means that it reacts to pressure change more readily than other pads, and you feel that change through the accelerations, again NOT through the pedal.

You'll feel even less in a cable brake system, which I think a lot of karts are (even if only partly).

[wheel4hummer]

You do realise Spanks that there is no feel in any brake pedal - they don't work like that.

Unless you have ABS, and it turns on while braking. Then you feel something.

[tristancliffe]

That's not 'feel', but the hydraulic pressure being artificially altered. Yes, you feel it, but it's not 'feel'.

[wark]

Yes, you feel it, but it's not 'feel'.

Oh, okay. :smileypul

[Mattesa]

I've raced 7 years of my life so far 5 in a kart, 2.5 in a purpose built drag car.
:smileypul:thumbsup:


G-force warning = seat of your pants feel I suppose, which is invaluable...and the biggest thing missing from a computer game

And we're all still able to anticipate understeer, oversteer, and weight transfer. I'm just saying that adding 'threshold braking' to that list isn't all that big of a deal. Give it a try if you have pedals.

If you happen to see someone puffing smoke from one wheel, it's probably me. :shy:

[spanks]

You do realise Spanks that there is no feel in any brake pedal - they don't work like that. Any feel you get is from the g-forces resulting from pedal pressure, not through the pedal. A brake pad with 'lots of feel' means that it reacts to pressure change more readily than other pads, and you feel that change through the accelerations, again NOT through the pedal.

You'll feel even less in a cable brake system, which I think a lot of karts are (even if only partly).

my kart was a metal linkage with a hydraulic master cylinder to a single rear caliper

cheaper, or slower karts I saw had manual cable brakes...they were horrible in comparison D:

And yeah, I suppose there wasn't really any feedback through the pedal when the braking changed, just the sweet spot that I got used to feeling to know when I pushed hard enough :P

again, I'm not opposed to adding this...so I don't really know myself what I was going on about :shrug: Just making conversation I suppose :x

[Bluebird B B]

"There is no way, other than audibly and visually to know that the tire is locked up. Yes, the car will react, but since the best we have is ffb through the wheel...unless you have a simulator at home...and to visually react, and adjust the brake pedal. At that point, you've already locked up the brakes for a good amount of time, and probably already need to turn in."

Well with my rather simpel controller i don' t have trouble to figure out wheter i lock up or not. I can choose., lock both front, right front, or left front if i want to. But normally i never want to lock tyres ofcourse.

But i' m glad some agree, especially if an important braking point is full of bumps like on as national reversed just before the very tight lefthander. People just adjust brakes so they can hit brakes 100% making there brake distance very short with the 'abs' setting. Also on south city tracks, such settings gives sometimes a unrealistic advantage and a very digital racing experience, braking point is always identical, tyre temps or setup will hardly effect braking points with the 'abs' settings.

I will be waiting for the next updates :boing: and hope max brake force will have a lot higher minimum value or can' t be changed at all. For example, brake force of fo8 locked at max of 1600nm per wheel. Will create nightmares for some drivers though :shrug: Who are not used to controlling the brake pedal.

[tristancliffe]

In real life an FO8 would create nightmares for them, so why not in LFS? :p

[duke_toaster]

LFS still has brake help, doesn't it? Or has that been removed along with throttle help too?

LFS has still got brake help, I think I've left it on :shy:

[wsinda]

What is all the fuss about? LFS still has brake help, so why should this brake force thing matter?

Does having a low brake force give you a competitive advantage? I don't think so. If you want to be fast, you need to modulate the brakes. If you don't, you will get locked wheels because
(a) downforce decreases when the speed drops,
(b) the car gets lighter when going over bumps in the track,
(c) engine braking is added when you shift down,
(d) tyre grip decreases when the tyres wear out or overheat.

If you set the brake force so low that you avoid locked wheels under all circumstances, you need to brake much earlier, and will be several seconds per lap slower.

If LFS would enforce a minimum brake force, it does not make a difference for the fast guys. But LFS will get harder for the others: drivers who are learning, or are less talented, or drive with mouse/kb (unless they switch on brake help, assuming it's still there). Some of those may give up on LFS, and buy a different sim.

What will you gain?

[tristancliffe]

Does having a low brake force give you a competitive advantage?It certainly can! Set the brakes just right so that they don't lock with the maximum braking force you'll ever use at that track (e.g. for T1 at SO1), and you'll be quicker. Yes, you still have to modulate the brakes as speed decays, but you know that at 100m you can slam on the brakes 100% and be safe (once your tyres are warm).

Trust me, it can find you time and consistency. If used unwisely it can cost you a lot more time of course, but that's the skill of 'cheating' for you.

[AndroidXP]

If you set the brake force so low that you avoid locked wheels under all circumstances, you need to brake much earlier, and will be several seconds per lap slower.
I don't know how far you take "under all circumstances", but generally I have to disagree with this statement.

1) You gain lots of consistency by making sure most corners don't require any special attention to the brakes. Besides that, it's also much less tiring/stressing to be able to just mash the brake with little risk of damage, which can play a big role for your mental performance in longer races.

2) You can greatly prolong the life of your tyres when you don't lock them up, or at least only very seldom.

3) The time lost by not using maximum brake force is minimal, compared to messing up the corner exit. It's better to consistently lose a tenth or two at a corner, than to get the corner right 80% of the time with the 20% screwups costing you seconds in the corner and on the following straight. Especially on public/medium level races consistency quickly pays off big time.

The only real negative thing weaker brakes do is putting you at a disadvantage in position fights. There it doesn't matter if you take the corner optimally - if the opponent can outbrake you, he has gained the position. Your more ideal corner entry won't help you there as he'll be in the way, denying you the line you'd normally take.

[Bluebird B B]

I don't know how far you take "under all circumstances", but generally I have to disagree with this statement.

1) You gain lots of consistency by making sure most corners don't require any special attention to the brakes. Besides that, it's also much less tiring/stressing to be able to just mash the brake with little risk of damage, which can play a big role for your mental performance in longer races.

2) You can greatly prolong the life of your tyres when you don't lock them up, or at least only very seldom.

3) The time lost by not using maximum brake force is minimal, compared to messing up the corner exit. It's better to consistently lose a tenth or two at a corner, than to get the corner right 80% of the time with the 20% screwups costing you seconds in the corner and on the following straight. Especially on public/medium level races consistency quickly pays off big time.

The only real negative thing weaker brakes do is putting you at a disadvantage in position fights. There it doesn't matter if you take the corner optimally - if the opponent can outbrake you, he has gained the position. Your more ideal corner entry won't help you there as he'll be in the way, denying you the line you'd normally take.

Point One, Point Two and Point Three: With these you are telling me you agree, that it is true that this brake-force settings is used as an abs system and is giving an unfair advantage. What is your point? You want to keep this settings? Although it takes away some(for me a lot) of the fun of racing?

With all circumstances i mean, nearly impossible or very bad driving with cold tyres is required to get lockups. Will never happen with regular drivers.


Tyre-life? Yes indeed you have to be carefull with the brakes when they are setup like real brakes. I don' t see a problem there, just dont lockup. Most likely you can do about 1 to 3 laps less on a set of tyres.


@wsinda
There are many fast drivers who use brake-settings so low, it is really not possible to lockup and turn-in braking is very easy. The timeloss of the extra brakedistance is minimal. Not seconds, but more like 0,2-0,3sec but it the advantage is much bigger: Cooler tyres, very easy and digital(brake-point always identical), turn-in easier.

Today i received a set for fbm with brakeforce set as low as 565nm and i though 700nm was already to weak and difficult to get lockups on.. Yet, people are incredably fast with it. Why, bumbs didnt affect them while braking. Also the track required braking while cornering a bit with car out of balance, with such low setting, this gets very easy. Just brake and on turn in keep braking, tyres wont lock anyway.

[AndroidXP]

I was replying to wsinda...

[wsinda]

You want to keep this settings? Although it takes away some(for me a lot) of the fun of racing?Why does it spoil your fun? You can choose to set a high brake force, and control the car in your style. Or do you mean that you have less fun because you're slower than others, because you use a high brake force (which is harder to drive)?

A high brake force may seem closer to RL, but RL drivers have an advantage over sim-racers: they can control their brake input by the force that their left foot puts on the pedal, whereas sim-racers must brake through the foot's position (which is harder to control precisely). Next to that, RL racers also get feedback by feeling the G forces. RL racers have it easy, methinks.

Today i received a set for fbm with brakeforce set as low as 565nm and i though 700nm was already to weak and difficult to get lockups on.. Yet, people are incredably fast with it.Well, you can get the same result with 700Nm and the pedal at 80%. (FYI, the FBM's default setup has brake force at 541Nm...)

[wsinda]

1) You gain lots of consistency by making sure most corners don't require any special attention to the brakes. Besides that, it's also much less tiring/stressing to be able to just mash the brake with little risk of damage, which can play a big role for your mental performance in longer races.OK, point taken. I had been thinking of hotlapping, but in long races the consistency is a big bonus.

[GobLox]

We are currently able to tweak braking force to near perfection! I mean very very close; there are a few situations where you might be able to brake faster if you had more braking force on tap but people certainly aren't taking that trade. If you don't think the current setup makes you faster you are kidding yourself.

It makes it less fun because braking is hugely important part of racing and this is a simulation. Yes - without the vestibular (motion sense) input, driving a sim is harder. NFS has plenty of "fun" and forgiving braking to offer. Braking isn't a particularly important part of the NFS franchise. Braking is an important part of LFS - and it should be realistically modeled. For the same reason ABS is outlawed even in many big-money race organizations: Highly assisted wheel to wheel racing is usually boring with less opportunities to overtake. It takes the driver out of the equation. You should be offended that someone thinks you need it.

[DragonCommando]

I think LFS should have brake forces for each car set as they would in real life. The only thing that should be adjustable on the vehicles is brake balance, and that should only be for the cars that it is adjustable in real life.

[skstibi]

Well, if you look at all the adjustments you can make to the cars in LFS, it is not that accurate to real "road" cars that are stock. Look at all the adjustments you can do with the things... That is not with stock parts and honestly, being able to adjust brake power/ balance is quite an easy modification.. I can do all that in my Pontiac but I choose to only use the Balance adjustment. With what I have, power can be changed by poping the hood and turning a knob. Same with balance.

Currently, I like to be able to lock all 4 wheels on command if needed. I can get out of some prety hairy T1 situations by locking the wheels for a moment and sliding around crashing cars where sharply turning runs a high risk of spinning and ending up with the rest of the twisted mess. Sure it gives flatspots but I would rather that than having a damaged car.. tires change far faster than damage can get repaired..

I am not against the idea of being able to adjust braking power seeing as not all of us have wheels.. I have a G25 but that is just me.

[Bluebird B B]

I was replying to wsinda...
oeps sorry

[Bluebird B B]

"ith what I have, power can be changed by poping the hood and turning a knob."
Power of the brake-assist system you mean. Not related to maximum brake-force a certain brake-system can deliver. But it might be impossible for a human being to use it with the brake-assist systems turned off.

So in effect, the knob can feel like turning down brake-power of your car(and making your car no longer legal on public road :D )

[GobLox]

Well, if you look at all the adjustments you can make to the cars in LFS, it is not that accurate to real "road" cars that are stock. Look at all the adjustments you can do with the things... That is not with stock parts and honestly, being able to adjust brake power/ balance is quite an easy modification.. I can do all that in my Pontiac but I choose to only use the Balance adjustment. With what I have, power can be changed by poping the hood and turning a knob. Same with balance.

Yes, the adjustment's we can make to the suspension are a little bit over the top. The ability to adjust transmission gearing ratios in particular, since most transmissions only have 1 or 2 ratio-sets available, is a bit much but it does allow used to model real cars a little easier and the standard ratios are very close to optimal for everything but, perhaps, rally tracks. Final Drive, Damping Force, Spring Rates, Caster & Camber are available in a fairly broad spectrum, although not with the fidelity of control LFS offers of course, and I don't have a problem with the way it's set up now.

I'm not aware of a part you can install in line or on a Master cylinder/booster assembly that allows one to adjust overall braking force - Do you have a link to it? By moving the linkage farther down on a pedal you can increase pedal pressure by reducing your mechanical advantage but this just means you have to press harder.

Yes a proportioning valve can, with a flaring tool, be installed in 10 minutes on virtually any car, Brake Bias is fine the way it is.

[DragonCommando]

Most stock cars have the brake balance adjustment fixed, you can not adjust it at all. This is for safety reasons, because people would mess with it. If you give people that option, they will abuse it and kill themselfs and other people around them.

Just imagine some one who thinks they know what they are doing, they figure setting brake power to 50/50 front/rear is better than the stock setting. That would be a very hazardous situation for them, and for other drivers. If they press the brakes to hard they are garanteed to spin and crash, possibly into someone else, especialy since they probably don't know enough about the dynamics of a car to control the spin.

Brake force isn't adjustable by any means on any vehicle. The only thing that regulates brake force is the drivers foot. The brake booster can be adjusted on some cars, but it just means that you have to press the pedal harder to lock the wheels, because the assist is gone.

And saying that LFS alows so much adjustment of other things that it should alow force adjustment is just wrong. The only way LFS can continue to get more realistic is by starting to fix some of the variables they alow people to change now. A large portion of the setup screen should be locked for the road cars. There should be pre-set options for gearing and suspension.

It doesn't have to be too restrictive, but it should be more realistic, and brake force adjustment is the most unrealistic thing in LFS next to the gearing ratios.

[wsinda]

Another point: It's very easy to cheat, if you have a wheel.

If LFS were to fix the brake force to, say 800, and I want it at 600, then I can tell the Logitech Profiler to scale the brake pedal input down to 75%. Presto, I'm back at the current situation where I can stomp on the pedal and still be safe from blocked wheels.

(And if your driver software doesn't do this for you, you can always place a carefully chiseled piece of wood under the pedal.)

[tristancliffe]

But people wouldn't do that, because each car and setup would require a different sized bit of wood, rather than individual settings in LFS. See which one is easy (LFS) and which one is more difficult (except for one car/track/setup freaks)?

You can change maximum brake force - higher friction pad:disc combinations, larger diameter discs (more wheel braking torque for a given CF), and grippier tyres. But the first is usually limited by feel and price, the second by wheel sizes (unless you are a ricer with 20" wheels on your drift 'car'), and the third by the rest of the 'package'. And heat. So in practice there is a limit to most cars abilities, and it's not plausible to increase it without making something else worse.

[DragonCommando]

Most race classes restrict you to curtain configurations, some don't even alow you to run big(er) brakes in the first place, but you will never see a car with brakes too small to lock the wheels. Because that would mean that brake fade would decrease stoping power to the point it might become a hazard.

[tristancliffe]

On a lot of classes in UK club racing brakes are free. Plenty have insufficient brakes to lock the wheels except at slow speeds, and usually with some amount of lateral load transfer or bumps. I can't lock my Reynard's wheels until below 90mph (well, maybe I could if I was stupid/brave/talented enough to try, but I'm not, so nerrrr).

[GobLox]

You can change maximum brake force ... by wheel sizes (unless you are a ricer with 20" wheels on your drift 'car')

Wheel size is irrelevant if you can keep your tire diameter the same with an appropriate profile. But I agree; It's been mentioned a few times that you could just change the calibration of the axis or I guess wood is an option too. If someone wants to go to that much trouble to cheat then I guess they have earned it (as much as a cheating louse can earn something) but currently you have to be a glutton for punishment not to use the system in place and taking it away would mean that 99% of the field is on the up and up.

[DragonCommando]

I'm positive that you can push the brakes hard enough on any race car that they will lock the wheels. It's possible that after a while they will heat up enough that fade comes in and prevents them from locking at high speeds, but thats not where it counts.

We are talking at corners where you do alot of braking, like T1 at blackwood. Thats also a spot where the car's weight lifts a bit as you come over the hump before the corner. any real car would lock if you put the brake pedal down 100%. On real cars 100% is putting as much force on the pedal as possible, so it's garanteed to lock.

Pedal modulation is key when you run a realistic setup, I've run a realistic setup ever since I started playing LFS. I haven't been playing as long as my accounts been active, but I've been playing long enough that I've perfected some very realistic setups in the time I've been racing. I started with Racer though, and I was basicaly a car "fixer" for that simulation. My goal was and still is to make car setups that act as close to the real thing as possible.

I guess my lap times show it though, because I'm not the fastest. But I'm not the slowest either.
Take the adjustment away, and I bet I'd be faster than at least 60% of the faster racers here though. Because I already have practice doing it the realistic way.
I just refuse to run unrealistic setups.

In the end, LFS is a sim, so a wheel and pedals is the right way to play it. Just because the devs have been nice enough to put other control methods in doesn't mean they have to keep unrealistic features to make keyboard players happy.

[tristancliffe]

Wheel size is irrelevant if you can keep your tire diameter the same with an appropriate profile. But I agree; It's been mentioned a few times that you could just change the calibration of the axis or I guess wood is an option too. If someone wants to go to that much trouble to cheat then I guess they have earned it (as much as a cheating louse can earn something) but currently you have to be a glutton for punishment not to use the system in place and taking it away would mean that 99% of the field is on the up and up.

It certainly isn't irrelevant - for a fixed tyre diameter a larger wheel decreases sidewall height, which has rather large ramifications for handling and grip, which is why most race cars don't have silly low profile tyres as seen on modern road cars (although regulations also play a part in this).

[wsinda]

In the end, LFS is a sim, so a wheel and pedals is the right way to play it. Just because the devs have been nice enough to put other control methods in doesn't mean they have to keep unrealistic features to make keyboard players happy.Yes they do. To stay alive, LFS needs to attract a steady stream of new players. (Licensed players won't produce new income for the devs until S3 is out.) Many newbies will start as mouse or kb drivers -- you can't expect them to buy a FFB wheel just to try out LFS. And if the learning curve is too steep, they will give up and go to the competition.

<offtopic>
Don't get me started about LFS being a sim. You use it for your enjoyment, so it's a game. It would be a sim if professional racers would use it for practice, but there are none AFAIK. On the other hand, Lewis Hamilton is rumoured to use GT4 to learn F1 tracks, so GT4 is a sim. :smileypul
</offtopic>

[Mille Sabords]

Agreed with Wsinda.
I see the brake force setting option as a compromise in LFS, that would not be necessary if all of us had racing cockpits to get a good enough feeling to modulate braking force.
Until then, sitting at a desk in front of a screen (at best!) and without G forces feeling I think the existing compromise is necessary and I understand why it is here.

[DragonCommando]

I had crappy combined pedals and a garbage wheel that cost me $12 canadian, and I got along just fine modulating brake force. I've never used any aids. So saying that you can't modulate brake force because you don't have the g-forces is bull. I almost never lock the wheels of my car when racing. I only do it when I'm not concerned about it.

I think the only way LFS can move forward is to start removing all of the variables that alow people to make unrealistic setups for there cars, untill then, you will still get people who don't want to learn the right way. And that is what holds LFS back from being the best of the best in sims.

And taking away the brake force adjustment will not hinder the keyboarders if they know how to set it up anyway. They can just use the control rate option. Thats what I've been doing for now, since I haven't finnished building my DIY pedals and wheel.

As for LFS being a sim, It IS being used for race training, and it's also being used for another one of those new race driver competitions. Calling GT4 a sim is a joke, after playing that, and then driving one of the cars from that game for real, I have to say they realy got it wrong. In LFS I set up the XRG using real world variables, and then took it for a spin in the parking lot. After that, I drove a similar car, since I coulden't get my hands on a Starion. The dynamics of the car where almost spot on.

[wsinda]

I think the only way LFS can move forward is to start removing all of the variables that alow people to make unrealistic setups for there cars, untill then, you will still get people who don't want to learn the right way. And that is what holds LFS back from being the best of the best in sims.You know, I get an icy feeling when I read words like that. I see visions of re-education camps for dissenters who deny the Sublime Truth (tm), and who try to lead us away from the Glorious Path to Racing Paradise.
Calling GT4 a sim is a jokeSure. Yet you failed to see the irony.

[DragonCommando]

You know, I get an icy feeling when I read words like that. I see visions of re-education camps for dissenters who deny the Sublime Truth (tm), and who try to lead us away from the Glorious Path to Racing Paradise.

seriously, WTF?

If we want LFS to be the most realistic racing sim there is, things need to change to prevent people from doing unrealistic things.
The whole point of LFS is to be a racing sim, NOT a racing game.
It's even in the title, Live for Speed: Online Racing Simulator.
For it to be a simulator, it must be as realistic as possible.
I'm not just talking about max brake force here, EVERYTHING needs to be limmited to realistic values.

The thing that annoyes me the most about this is, now that I know about this kind of cheating, I understand why I'm not one of the faster drivers. And it sucks, all this time I thaught people where setting the brake force to reasonable levels, and now I realize that I'm one of the probably fue people who actualy uses the threshhold braking technique.

How am I supposed to look at other drivers times now compared to mine? Knowing that all this time I've been playing it the hard way and that there's a possibilty that they are faster because of there ability to just mash the brakes without worrying like I do?

[tristancliffe]

If we're simulating real racing in a computer generated world, the same principle applies - use every advantage you can, and push the rules to the limit. By not doing so it's no wonder you are slow. Morals don't count on the victory podium.

[DragonCommando]

In a real racing situation, brake force is controled by the drivers foot, there's no brake force adjustment on a real car setup. So for LFS to be realistic, then brake force should be done by the player, not by the settings in there setup.

This doesn't mean that you can't play with a keyboard like people seem to think is the case. I've been playing it with the keyboard since my crappy pedals broke, and even with my setups that lock the wheels at 100%, I still manage to get similar times without locking the wheels at all. I've lost about 1-2 seconds, but thats because I'm not used to using the keyboard to steer.

[JeffR]

Coefficient of friction, and the maximum reasonable amount of force a human can apply to the brakes, limit the amount of maximum braking force in real life. The materials used in discs and brake pads would effectively limit the amount of maximum braking force. In real life no one wants brakes that are overly sensitive, brake materials are choosen based on weight, speed, and grip of the cars they're used on.

In racing sims, since few, if any, players have force sensing / force feedback on the pedals, I don't have an issue with a maximum braking force. Then again, I don't have an issue with any assists as long as the assists don't give an advantage or if servers can choose not to allow certain assists. The more options in the game, the wider the audience, without taking away from the purists that will only run on the "no assists allowed servers". I don't see how it's in the best interest of the devlopers to diminish the number of potential customers as long as the core customers aren't affected.

[tristancliffe]

In racing sims, since few, if any, players have force sensing / force feedback on the pedals, I don't have an issue with a maximum braking force. Then again, I don't have an issue with any assists as long as the assists don't give an advantage or if servers can choose not to allow certain assists. The more options in the game, the wider the audience, without taking away from the purists that will only run on the "no assists allowed servers". I don't see how it's in the best interest of the devlopers to diminish the number of potential customers as long as the core customers aren't affected.

But then you wouldn't, being a joystick user, and therefore playing for reasons other than realism or driving enjoyment. And being so slow I can see why aids are something you like.

[JeffR]

Note that some real RC car racers still prefer the classic twin stick setup, as opposed to the newer trigger / side wheel setup, so twin sticks for a racing game, which is similar to remote control of a car, can't be that bad. After all, some of the top players in GPL used joysticks. If I'm slow, it's due to lack of talent / experience / interest. I haven't reached the point where the controller is going to make a big difference. Regarding the aids, I was faster with the aids off than on in GTR (using the wheel and pedals, which finally just quit working and are now thrown away). I'll use the aids to "learn" a new track and car combination, then gradually wean off the aids once I've learned the combo, saves a lot of time.

[Polyracer]

Thats the thing - we don't all have force sensitive brake peds or even progressive pedals -which is all thats needed really.

With a standard set of DFP pedals its handy to be able to adjust the brake power in order to prevent lockups, - simply because you have little pedal feedack on order to prevent it.
I have a modded brake pedals on my G25 (Nixim G25 brake mod), so I have a good feel of exactly how much pressure I apply to my brakes without locking.

I see no problem in anyone adjusting to achieve the easiest braking and do not see it as any form of cheating - as it is what a real team would be trying to do anyway.

[AndroidXP]

^ I've installed this mod on the weekend, too. Feels great when you actually have something to press against. The only difference is that instead of spending 13€ on it, I simply used an old block of ink-rubber I had lying around somewhere (the hard plastic-y kind of rubber - normal soft rubber would crumble under the forces exerted on it).

[Polyracer]

Ah thats where I presume months of testing will tell the full srory -

Your eraser rubber may give acceptable results in LFS, - but it will not work properly in most other games, specially GTR 2 - GTL - Race etc.
Your Eraser rubber is far too hard and will not allow the full pedal stroke which is required in these games.

Also how will it have stood up after a few thousand compressions?

Let us know how it is performing after you have used it for some time.

[AndroidXP]

That is true, it will not allow the full pedal range to be used, however, the G25 pedals are self-calibrating, meaning that every time you turn it on you have to "fully" depress the pedals anyway. Since you can't fully depress them, they will assume whatever range you can press to be the max range. Therefore I see no reason why it wouldn't work in any of the sims you mentioned (not that I play either of them).

The only adjustment I made was using DXTweak to alter the linearity of the brake pedal, so that the rubber-pressure part has more significance over the part where only the G25 pedal spring provides resistance. I also tried adding a deadzone at the start of the pedal range, but it proved to be too unreliable if I wanted just a slight braking force to be applied, so I settled with the semi-realistic approach I have now.

The reliability of this I cannot tell - I fully expect the rubber to crumble at some point - especially considering I actually used a sandwich approach, with two hard pieces being at the top and bottom to withstand the "localised" force of the spring housing interiors and a soft rubber in between to allow for a bit more range. But then again I enjoy taking things apart and putting them back together, so that's no biggie :)