Product Placement in LFS [Archive]

SamH

16th December 2005, 12:42

This thread is very much directed at the Devs.. but what does everyone else think to this? (and apologies if it's been discussed before. I did search and didn't find)

It's weird! Everywhere else on the Internet, I'm doing my damndest to kill ads, avoid popups, and not click on click-thru banners. So why do I find myself, in the case of LFS, WISHING to see REAL ads from REAL companies around the track!?

I'd REALLY like to see, in LFS, sponsorship from real companies on the billboards around the track. I'd be delighted to see Vodaphone banners, Dunlop banners, Goodyear, Orange.. ANYthing, actually, that's real. I know there are companies out there who are introducing the concept of live banner advertising to game developers, and into online gameplay, and in the scenarios I've seen, I've found the idea largely unattractive. But LFS is entirely different, because the scenario begs for reality, and current and relevent, dynamically updated advertising IS a reality that I think is VERY achievable in LFS.

When we (my friends and I) set up our dedicated server to play LFS, one of the other games servers we installed was Battlefield2, and in the config is an option for "Server Graphic". In there, we dropped the URL for our own banner. KEWL! It would be nice to be able to advertise your LFS team on the pitwall, or on the wall facing you at turn 1, or on the bridge. At the moment, the only place you get to promote your server is in the list of multiplayer servers before folks pick and join one. It would be nice to get a bit more screen realty inside the game too!

The fundamental aspects of the mechanism exists already, in LFS, with dynamically updated car skins (kickass!!!).. and I see billboard advertising as a mere step away.

On top of everything else, it could guarantee the longevity of LFS beyond S3. While I do very much sense a philanthropic aspect to Scawen, Eric et al, and the business model of LFS and its supporting gaming community is most definitely a departure from traditional concepts, I do sometimes worry how long the servers that support LFS (Master Server, LFS Desktop etc) could coast in coming years.

It's a discussion that's getting coverage in the UK at the moment, with companies bidding for products' placement in TV programmes. I've been thinking about the thing since joining the LFS community this year. What do you guys think?

Tege

16th December 2005, 12:58

Yeah it would be good to have more real ads. There is two already Castrol and ATL.

HorsePower

16th December 2005, 13:13

I like the idea, too! :nod: That would be even more realistic and as long as LFS doesn't stop in the middle of a race with a message "We're right back after the break ..." and then starts showing ads :hyper:, I'll say :thumb:

ORION

16th December 2005, 13:19

And Cromo too ;)

Well, the idea is not new, but hasnt been discussed really into the detail either, but Imo it's clear: Add real ads into the game - not by buying a license, but by sponsorship.

About the master Server:
Dont worry, it will be online for quite a while, and in veeeerry far future, you dont have to worry about that, because Im sure Scawen will release the Master Server software, or at leadt give it to someone in the comunity, so that the racing can go on even without any development :)

ColeusRattus

16th December 2005, 13:27

IIRC both Splintercell and Swat 4 have banners where companies can buy their space for a certain time. After that the banners will be updated via online update.

This would work great for LFS. Also, with LFS having a very specified peergroup, you could get ads from Companies which spent relatively low amounts for advertisments...

Lible

16th December 2005, 13:40

Yeah! But I am sure that this is not the most important thing.

thisnameistaken

16th December 2005, 14:09

Can't say I care to look at adverts while I'm playing a game, but whatever. If it's adverts for other games I'm probably not going to buy them anyway, and if it's adverts for car parts that would be irrelevant too given that I don't have a car. I also don't drink soda, my mobile was given to me to replace my old one which was given to me five years previously, I don't play online poker or use online casinos, I already know where I'm buying my next computer, I don't need viagra or any of its generic alternatives, and I don't need any part of my body enlarging - in fact I don't even have breasts. Advertise to me all you like but you're wasting your time.

mrodgers

16th December 2005, 18:48

2 opinions here. I agree it would be really cool to see real ad banners and stuff around the tracks instead of the made up stuff. It would help in the immersion factor. Also, it may help out in the dev's developing with paid advertisments.

But then again, I can't say I know, but I imagine that it falls this way alot. LFS Dev's start to accept money for advertisments, then eventually, the companies paying out the cash for ads start to dictate what happens, where their ads go, the Dev's need to start paying for their own advertisments and marketing because the paying "sponsors" demand it, etc, etc.

If the case of the second scenario would be what happens to the Dev's, then I say no way and leave the fake stuff there.

JJ72

16th December 2005, 19:07

As long as it is not intrusive.

SamH

16th December 2005, 19:11

... I imagine that it falls this way alot. LFS Dev's start to accept money for advertisments, then eventually, the companies paying out the cash for ads start to dictate what happens, where their ads go, the Dev's need to start paying for their own advertisments and marketing because the paying "sponsors" demand it, etc, etc.

If the case of the second scenario would be what happens to the Dev's, then I say no way and leave the fake stuff there.

I totally agree with what you're saying, which is ironically why the LFS model makes this idea work. LFS exists as a business model WITHOUT dependency on sponsors. LFS will exist and continue to be developed as LFS does, with or without the additional financial input of external sponsorship.

I'm quite sure, having read many posts by the devs, that the driving force behind LFS will always remain entirely within the control of Victor, Scawen and Eric. All in all, I perceive the potential to be a 3-fold enhancement: We, the gamers, see real advertisements on the track; The advertisers get their name out there (how cool to have your company's ads at Silverstone AND Blackwood!?) and the devs have additional revenue coming in.

It may be that companies don't see the potential benefit, in which case the default fictional banners could remain in place, but when a slot is taken up by a sponsor.. tada! If a sponsor doesn't like the way LFS is, they don't have to advertise in it.. and the future of the game isn't at risk in that event.

Just strikes me that it's an opportunity for the devs, and for us, and for potential sponsors, that it would be a real shame to miss.

SamH

16th December 2005, 19:16

As long as it is not intrusive.

Totally agree. There are a great many different billboards around LFS tracks. I'm specifically thinking of those. They exist anyway, and add to the realism of the simulator. If more of them were real products, then I personally think the realism would increase accordingly.

Fonnybone

16th December 2005, 21:23

Perhaps they don't have the time and/or personal resources to go and
lobby sponsors. Maybe if someone took it upon himslef to do it for them.
So far the only 2 real products in LFS are the MRT5 and the RunAbout.
The MRT5 isn't even a 'product' as you cannot buy it anywhere, so
that leaves the RA. How did the RA get in LFS and does the company
making that car give ANY money for the publicity ?!

As for seeing general brands all over the track, i couldn't care less.
We are bombarded all over the place anyways, i have a filter. If LFS
needs the money that bad then i say go for it. Heck, here in Canada
some public schools get funding from exclusivity contracts with
Coke or Pepsi (there, i've done it. I didn't want to mention names, but
those two have been at each other's throat for years, it just shows how
low they can go to get any part of a market). Santa makes money from
kids !!! Is that news to anyone ?

Tege

16th December 2005, 22:08

How did the RA get in LFS and does the company
making that car give ANY money for the publicity ?!
It's RaceAbout! :nod:

I suggested it to the devs and they said yes. I had (still have) access to the car and was able to provide info and take photos for textures. There is no company making them. Only one car is made. It's designed and built by students with the help of some companys. There was(/is) no money involved. It's good publicity for both the car (and the school) and LFS.

Krane

16th December 2005, 22:22

mrodgers

17th December 2005, 02:02

When I wrote my post up there^^ I was thinking about paid advertisements and not just lobbying the companies for putting their name in for nothing. If racing specific names (ie, oil, tire, maybe Pe*si and C*ke since they're big in racing sponsorship) just allowed LFS to make banners with their name, I wouldn't take that as advertisements. I'd take it as immersion because it would make it seem more real as you see them all through real life racing. That I wouldn't have a problem with. And if no payment is made, then there is no control issues from said companies either. It would strickly be an immersion factor for us to see Pennzoil, Redline, Yokohoma, Pirelli, etc around the track. As long as it's racing specific and not stuff as thisnameistaken said with online poker and casinos, mobile phone companies, computers, viagra, finger enlargements (or any other enlargements, LOL). If it's just for immersion factor, OK. If it's for true advertisements, then no way. That's why we have TiVo and Popup blockers, spam blockers and stuff. To get rid of it all. By now, everybody knows who Dell is, who HP is with printers and cameras, who Ford, Cheverolet, Toyota, Mazda, and Honda is, who McDonald's is. This is half the reason why someone like me can't afford all the stuff advertised, because the price is jacked so high to pay all the ridiculous sums for advertising. When was the last time you were watching TV and you saw a Walmart commersial (at least over here in the US) and thought, "hmm, Walmart, I've never heard of that. I'll have to check that out."

Sorry, I'm beginning to rant as I really hate advertisements and commercials jacking prices up so that I can't afford the products they're trying to entice me to buy. Hmm, after the 1,000,000 email about certain enhancements, don't you think if I thought it was a great idea, I would have sprung for it way before that 1,000,000th email?

Fonnybone

17th December 2005, 03:27

I'm not sure i follow ... are you saying that they SHOULDN'T take money from sponsors but
instead give those big companies FREE publicity ? Now that's just wrong. If LFS has fictional
names, i imagine it's precisely because of the devs 'we dont need any big brother' mentality
in the first place...as long as you're selling out, might as well make money from it imo.
Hey how about an EA sign, lol rofl lololol 111 ok:Looking_a

durbster

17th December 2005, 11:09

It's good publicity for both the car (and the school) and LFS.
I think it's fair to say that nobody would have heard of the RaceAbout if it wasn't for LFS, so it certainly is good publicity. It looks ace both in reality and in the game but I hope it handles better in real life :) :mischievo

Anyway, for sponsorship, the billboard approach is somewhat predictable and I'm not sure how successful they would be. How about a more integrated approach such as tyre companies, steering wheel manufacturers, tuning companies etc.? Surely seeing a Momo wheel every time you race would have more effect than a billboard somewhere far off your line of sight.

Renku

17th December 2005, 11:25

I think it's fair to say that nobody would have heard of the RaceAbout if it wasn't for LFS...
I saw it few years ago in the Finnish Motorshow...

AK-Chester

17th December 2005, 14:22

I'd REALLY like to see, in LFS, sponsorship from real companies on the billboards around the track. I sure don't. But even if there was... not a problem. I could easily get rid of it. ;)

L(Oo)ney

17th December 2005, 14:28

If you want real life ads, simply go edit the ad dds files.

Job done, and leaves scawen to get on with more important things. (Like making a ball we can play carball with. :rolleyes:)

the_angry_angel

17th December 2005, 14:32

Job done, and leaves scawen to get on with more important things. (Like making a ball we can play carball with. :rolleyes:)Missed the point somewhat L(Oo)ney.

Anything that doesnt obstruct LFS, or Scawen/Victor/Eric's way of development, then its certainly a good idea - especially if it allows the LFS team to be slightly more affluent.

tristancliffe

17th December 2005, 14:38

As long as they keep coding and don't waste time wandering Ferrari showrooms to spend their affluence. Unless there taking photos and measurements for new cars :D

the_angry_angel

17th December 2005, 14:40

Good caveat Mr Cliffe :D

L(Oo)ney

17th December 2005, 14:48

If the devs needed the money so bad that they had to go selling advertising space in LFS, im pretty sure they would have already found themselfs some sponsors by now.

Personally i dont care if there is no coke, pepsi, ipod, tesco, asda ect ect ads in lfs. I dont take much notice of the ones in there already.

ajp71

17th December 2005, 15:05

I'd rather choose what (if any) extra track graphics I download, rather than being forced into high res ad banners, most companies wouldn't want there products advertised on dirty cracked up banners, which is what 99% of real track advertising is like. Also banners need to be easy on the eyes, and can be low res, high res banners slow LFS down without you actually seeing them well at a side angle, trees, skies and tarmac are far better to make high res.

Chaos

18th December 2005, 09:23

Well back on RSC I suggested to have the banners as they are now, but also to have some, which could be skinned the way the cars are skinned now... This would make it much easier for teams to get a server for ads...

And another thing is a MOTD screen upon conneting to a server...

SamH

18th December 2005, 11:56

So far it seems to perculate down to those who find advertising offensive BECAUSE it's advertising, and those who see the reality/immersion of it as a plus. Both perspectives, I totally empathise with.

To clarify, in my own mind I'd considered the real advertising around real tracks as the actual product, which I proposed to place in LFS. Thus, Valvoline, Shell, Cooper Tires, Dunlop, RBS, SAP etc would be the ads I'd consider to be genuine product placement because they're present AT real tracks, whereas online casinos, enlargement products (except Viagra, of course!) are irrelevent to the sport, not present as products (ads) at real tracks, and therefore wouldn't be what I'd consider to be ads we'd ever see in LFS. Fortunately, LFS being what it is, accepting advertising from such sources is unlikely ever to happen, because it's not in the spirit of LFS.. simulated realism.

Maybe I'm just a motorsport nut, but often I join servers not to race but to spectate. I just enjoy motorsport, and I do see the advertising billboards, as I would if I were watching the F1 GP.

Companies might consider a little extra investment to step into the virtual world. Since the majority of their audience is already principally seeing them on-screen in peoples' homes and since statistics bear out that people (at least here in the UK) spend more hours in front of their PC, these days, than in front of their TVs, it would take a fairly narrow-sighted marketing department to not see the benefits. And let's face it, how totally cool must a company be, to have their ads in a PC game like LFS!

ajp71

18th December 2005, 12:16

If the devs were to choose a selection of ads of relevant things that would be fine. If each server can skin itself I can just see a load of stupidly bright colours advertising casinos and viagra.

I'd rather that all of this was optional, as I can't see auto download ads being low res and not everyone wants high res everything.

SamH

17th June 2007, 01:27

Bump! :tilt: (this is the oldest thread I've ever bumped deliberately! :D)

But a new slant, actually. This time, specifically for server operators and league organizers. Since I started this thread back in 2005, I've learned an awful lot more about LFS and so I know that the master server is definitely not at risk! :tilt:

While we've been chasing sponsors recently, it's become apparent that our inability to distribute relevent billboards around the circuit to the racers/spectators is definitely a missed opportunity and, in its own way, it's a bit of a hindrance to the progress we want to introduce.

We're not at all desperate for cash at CTRA in order to keep going. The server is sufficiently funded etc., and I have to say that the support and commitment from UKCT is fab.. but we could do more than we are doing if we had the extra bit of appeal to offer potential sponsors. The trackside billboards are *the* obvious way to be able to secure the bandwidth we'd love to use (~1TB/mo, pre-X) and, if we did a good enough job of selling our system, to offer something tangible to achievers on our servers.

Ideally, server operators could host their own packaged versions of select billboards around the track. As you join the server, you automatically download the latest (unix timecoded?) JPG or DDS files as you do skins.

Anyway.. I wanted to throw it out there. It's just a wall that could be a door or a window for opportunities, for server hosts and leagues :)

MAGGOT

17th June 2007, 02:14

I, personally, do not like the idea. I don't even like seeing Michelin, Castrol, Credit Suisse, and Intel in the game since it takes away from the cosey nature of LFS. (I'm fine with ATL since 90% of the community don't even know that it's a real company :P )

I've begun work on an Aston ads change to remove all the real companies and replace with fictional ones (mostly LFS companies) to keep the fictional feel to the sim. I like it better.

As it is now, it already takes a while to get into a medium-sized server, with all the skin downloads. I don't want to add more to that with dynamic ads that are shoved in my face. Heh.. typing this I've thought of an improvement suggestion myself.... ;)

Becky Rose

17th June 2007, 03:07

res can be fixed at a size or provided in low/high res or whatever, but what this would enable is server operators to recoup some cost. In the case of UKCT with the CTRA servers, it might possibly make the difference with having a second server or not.

Chaos

17th June 2007, 08:36

+1 to this idea (btw. http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1462 )

AndroidXP

17th June 2007, 08:45

Sure, implement ad downloads from third party servers (or actually just from the host, which downloads the ads by itself) - no problem. This would definitely work as long as they are downloaded before joining the host, like the current skins. Which does of course mean that the user would also be able to disable ad downloads altogether. I don't think anybody would have any objections against that - it's not like the ads would be animated or otherwise distracting (*cough*).

Though, the more professional it gets, the more the sponsors probably want statistics about ad viewing time and angle or similar, and I can't see Scawen waste any time for that.

Then there is also the issue of content control. Right now the devs don't allow automatic third party skin downloads because they have no control over what is being displayed, and I guess the same issue would arise for third party ads. :shrug:

Shotglass

17th June 2007, 11:19

i think server side ads would work ... sort of
id still prefer the fictional world of lfs though and the moment we get a bf2esque spyware to place the ads is the moment ill uninstall lfs for good even if discussing where exactly a crash occured might turn out to be fun with it http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20061019.jpg

Ian.H

17th June 2007, 12:35

CSU1

17th June 2007, 12:41

AndroidXP

17th June 2007, 12:45

:doh: :rolleyes:

You quoted a post from 2005 and directed him to a thread made almost one year later...

Highsider9

17th June 2007, 12:46

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=15868....ya didnt search hard enough:razz:

Look at the Date. Acutally you're the one that didn't search. :razz:

CSU1

17th June 2007, 12:48

:rolleyes2 WoW1eleven...still though tis all relevant:shy: ...is'nt it?

E: *reads rest of thread* laughs my ass off* /*gets coat*----> goes to lunch feeling like a twat*:(

SamH

17th June 2007, 13:11

This was one of the main reasons I didn't even consider looking at RACE. If this becomes a part of LFS, then I'll drop it like a hot spud.. I don't mind static advertising with the billboards etc as they currently are, I can change them if I so desire.. forcing me to see 3rd party ads regardless will result in me 1:> null-routing the ad server(s) IP address(es), 2:> finding a new game, 3:> forgetting all about S3

Regards,

Ian
Ack. That'd be a travesty!

I guess you could save yourself the bother of null-routing the IP by just not joining the server. :tilt: Especially since you'd lose connection to the host as soon as you did that anyway :)

I'm quite sure that very few people are as OCD about appropriately placed advertising as that, frankly. It would make it very difficult indeed (read: absolutely impossible) to watch a motor race on TV, or in fact anything other than ANYTHING on BBC. You must be more glad than ever that you live in the UK, and don't have to subject yourself to anything visually offensive like ITV or Sky. :)

Advertising is a core aspect of motorsports. Without it, barely any of it would happen except the ricing at Brighton and other street events. I respect your position, Ian, as much as it is possible to do so, but I have to say that in the REAL world, it's utterly unsustainable. LFS may be a game (say it with me, G.A.M.E.), but it still exists in the real world. :)

Becky Rose

17th June 2007, 13:16

I understand Sam's position on this and am with him. For the larger server operators such as UKCT (of which Sam and I are a part) it might enable us to open a second server. We can't do that with our own funds alone, so our maximum capacity is fundamentally limited.

AndroidXP

17th June 2007, 13:16

I'm sure if Scawen ever bothers to implement something like this then he'd also add the option for users to turn it off. No reason to fear it at all.

Electrik Kar

17th June 2007, 13:24

It's just a wall that could be a door or a window for opportunities, for server hosts and leagues :)

I understand your point Sam, but from a general guy/racer perspective (ie, most of us), without responsibilities of maintaining a server etc, I can't see any attraction at all in this idea. Hmmm.. I just grew up believing that advertising was the devil, so I'm just naturally against this type of thing in general.

From a realism standpoint, how can you make sure that the ads will be always contextually appropriate?

Maybe I'd be happier if they were of the type that you see at the top right of the forum here. They're directly informative to sim-racers. But how can a RL tyre-company really reach through to someone who operates his vehicle from an office chair? I'm sure these companies would be of the same opinion, so I don't think you'll see a giant Yokohama ad prop arching over the track, officially. It would be a simply waste of money, from their POV.

Someone mentioned back, that if RL companies started gaining a footing within LFS, they'd want to influence development and wield more power. I think that this would ultimately prove true. Not so long ago, I was helping Axus put together a special promotional copy of LFS for a SA computer company, on the proviso that their logo would be used in the trackside ads. Fair enough. But all too soon they wanted their partners logo's included as well (there was a giant list). So, great. You get RL ads, but now they're all computer brands- and how realistic is that? Not very.

add the option for users to turn it off.

Uhuh. Not. (you can't choose advertising)

-1 (with emphasis)

duke_toaster

17th June 2007, 13:37

-9999999999999 for any option for server side ads in LFS which can't be turned off by users.

LFS is supposed to cater to wide audiances, but it's like motorsport and films at the middle of the night on ITV4, you'll just get adverts for 18+ services which no-one wants whilst racing.

If LFS wants any texture and crap downloads, suits and pit interiors need to be done first. Then consider it - provided the user can turn it off. I'd love someone to make a PVR which automatically deletes ads when recording, and auto flicks to news 24 or similar when the commercial break starts and goes back when it finishes. Excellent :D

CSU1

17th June 2007, 13:41

-9999999999999 for any option for server side ads in LFS.

LFS is supposed to cater to wide audiances, but it's like motorsport and films at the middle of the night on ITV4, you'll just get adverts for 18+ services which no-one wants whilst racing.

If LFS wants any texture and crap downloads, suits and pit interiors need to be done first.

you too sir have greatly missed the point here...im sayen nout more for fear of stuff....now shut up:tilt:

Shotglass

17th June 2007, 13:48

For the larger server operators such as UKCT (of which Sam and I are a part) it might enable us to open a second server.

well s2 currently has ~500 servers of which max ~100 are pupulated at peak times so the last thing we need atm is more servers

the_angry_angel

17th June 2007, 13:54

When it comes to product placement in LFS, I'm still mostly for it. A compromise for any server operator though, would be to create a set of buttons via InSim whereby advertising could be placed.

Not ideal, I'll agree, but potentially worth while as you could periodically clear the "buttons" and so forth. For example ensuring they come up at the end of the race and just prior would be a good compromise imho.

Shotglass

17th June 2007, 13:58

Not ideal, I'll agree, but potentially worth while as you could periodically clear the "buttons" and so forth. For example ensuring they come up at the end of the race and just prior would be a good compromise imho.

like a commercial break between races ? tbh that would make me disconnect and never come back ever again

SamH

17th June 2007, 14:31

well s2 currently has ~500 servers of which max ~100 are pupulated at peak times so the last thing we need atm is more servers
Think of it in the other way I suggested.. LFS leagues offering actual prizes. If we received an abundance of cash at the CTRA from advertisers, the excess would be passed on to the racers. In fact, the reason I re-ignited this ancient thread was because UKCT were talking about how we'd go about getting into a situation where we could give something tangible to CTRA winners.

STROBE

17th June 2007, 15:26

It gets my full support, in principle.

However it must have option to turn off. Most people here will be on broadband so occasionally downloading an extra jpg (assuming that billboards get stored locally just like skins) can't really be a problem, but for whatever reason there will be times you don't want to download stuff.

Otherwise, I think it would add greatly to the immersion and realism. Real tracks change. Thinking of things like the British GP at Silverstone for example, the general "look" of the track can transform dramatically between years if the primary sponsor changes. Imagine if LFS tracks had the same capability, and (eg) the Redline Racing server looked noticeably different from a ConeDodgers server.

The other caveat I can think of is some kind of content filtering system. mainly to prevent inappropriate adverts. In the world of online advertising, LFS is to BF2 what ITV4 at 11pm is to ITV1 at 8pm. And the only adverts on ITV4 at 11pm are all for sex phone lines and other random crap. With skins the content is controlled by virtue of it all being on the LFSW server. So billboards could be added to the list, but then the bandwidth costs go up again so the devs would need paying by the advertisers, and it gets rather complicated.

But what other techniques could stop abuse or inappropriate ad placement? Having them hosted on the race server itself would be convenient, but wouldn't there still need to be a check via LFSW/master server about the content? How does EA/BF2 police the in-game advertising?

I think it's a great idea, just can't quite envisage at the moment how it'd work. :)

Shotglass

17th June 2007, 15:29

Think of it in the other way I suggested.. LFS leagues offering actual prizes. If we received an abundance of cash at the CTRA from advertisers, the excess would be passed on to the racers. In fact, the reason I re-ignited this ancient thread was because UKCT were talking about how we'd go about getting into a situation where we could give something tangible to CTRA winners.

given the talk on this forum about the standard of driving which possibly stems from having something intangible to gain im not sure if thats really a good idea for something thats not policed 100% of the time like the actual stcc league was

dont get me wrong i like the idea of being able to win something but given the attitude on the inside/outside thread from drivers who care about winning races which mean diddly squat im really scared at the though what online play will turn into if the race does mean something

AndroidXP

17th June 2007, 15:34

Unless the new CTRA management system Becky is working on greatly improves the marshalling coverage and ease of reporting, adding real money as prize is going to make things much much worse. I'm with Shotglass on this, and I guess we'll have to see how powerful the new system turns out to be.

jayhawk

17th June 2007, 15:39

If it gives Scavier money to continue this game as they have intended, I am all for product placement.

How about ads that are pertinent to the end user? Logitech, AMD, Western Digital, Motorola, netgear, etc. Might as well find advertisers that will buy their products.

SamH

17th June 2007, 18:04

What I'm proposing/requesting refers specifically to the billboards around tracks. I don't fancy mid-race or twixt-race video/graphic adverts and I'd certainly be against anything you'd have to click away. I'm referring only to the medium that exists already (billboards), and making actual use of it.

As for porn content.. if a server op were to deliver that kind of content, I'd hope Scawen would switch off that IP at the master server end. They sure wouldn't have me in their server very long, regardless. I really can't see it being an issue.. I haven't seen anything offensive on car skins (apart from maybe once or twice) and I'm assuming that Victor isn't throwing hours per week at policing skins. My presupposition is that server operators are always going to operate to a standard of practice where this kind of issue would never arise.

For us, the only sponsors we'd be able to attract in any circumstance is going to be something pertinent to motorsports and/or sim racing. Logitech being the obvious and most available example, but similarly any company that already sponsors motorsports could be attracted. Red Bull, for example, touches almost every aspect of motor racing. Sim racing is a natural progression for them, so they'd be a viable possibility. Red Bull ads would not look out of place around an LFS track. Anything related to computing, too.. what have they got to do with motorsports? Ask Intel or AMD :)

Regarding in-league and in-server behaviour, it's entirely up to league and server operators who offer prizes to assert appropriate driving standards. Truthfully, I only have experience of STCC league racing. Certainly in the STCC, you wouldn't be able to get very far without being squeaky-clean, and you sure as hell couldn't win the season driving any other way. I've always assumed that was the case for all leagues. All of this is aside from the main point, which is that if you offer prizes without demanding standards, you'll get whatever that brings. Relevent advertising and sponsorship isn't the determining factor there.

Sorry for multi-posting.. on a laptop following the f1 gp! :tilt:
I'm sure if Scawen ever bothers to implement something like this then he'd also add the option for users to turn it off. No reason to fear it at all.
Absolutely. I'm sure Scawen would ensure that it would be optional. If I had a choice, I'd ask for default to be on (auto download), because it lends leverage when server ops are talking to sponsors, but I'm confident that nobody who objected would be forced. I would definitely make that decision to accept/refuse detectable by server ops, though. I think that's important, for collecting stats etc.

Electrik Kar

17th June 2007, 18:25

Do you think it would be possible to even pull meaningful sponsorship this way? If there are only something like 50,000 S2 licences around, I'm sure the bigger (global) companies wouldn't even consider it. 50,000 is local newspaper stuff. And you'll have to convince these people that the target group (LFS players) somehow fits within the target profile that the advertising company's aiming to reach out to. That could be pretty hard for Redbull etc, but I admit probably pretty easy if the advertised product is a G25 for instance.

Either way, I still don't like it. Sure, ads are a part of real-life racing, and professional sports in general. I don't think it would somehow ruin the atmosphere of the game. I just don't want to be preached to as I'm going round a corner in my XFG.

Is nowhere sacred? (what would the Blackwood Guru say???)

edit- also, you'd better not tell potential sponsers that you can turn the ads off. They wouldn't like that. :rolleyes:

edit 2- I've re-stated myself. Sorry.

SamH

17th June 2007, 18:40

Do you think it would be possible to even pull meaningful sponsorship this way?
Yes. :)

AndroidXP

17th June 2007, 19:04

Depends, I don't think there's too much to gain from the racers themselves, but when the races are broadcast the whole thing might get more viable. Ingame I reckon the novelty would wear off very fast and they'd soon be ignored just like the current ads. While racing you should concentrate on the track anyway :tilt:

felplacerad

17th June 2007, 19:34

On behalf of liveforspeed.se I fully support the idea. We've been organizing events for almost a year and we've started to look for potential sponsors (more specifically we're looking for someone to fund the prizes we'd like to reward the winners with).

One potential sponsor we've been in contact with has specifically requested in-game advertisement in return for such sponsorship. Beside skins and the client-side replacing of textures (for screenshots, movies, etc) we can not offer much at this point.

Great idea Samzy! :thumb:

wsinda

17th June 2007, 19:37

duke_toaster

17th June 2007, 19:42

The other caveat I can think of is some kind of content filtering system. mainly to prevent inappropriate adverts. In the world of online advertising, LFS is to BF2 what ITV4 at 11pm is to ITV1 at 8pm.

Of course.

And the only adverts on ITV4 at 11pm are all for sex phone lines and other random crap.

No, they don't have much random crap. It's just sex phone lines. Most things worth watching on ITV4 are on at the middle of the night, I'm not an insomaniac so I record it and watch it the day after, fast forwarding the ads. Bliss.

With skins the content is controlled by virtue of it all being on the LFSW server. So billboards could be added to the list, but then the bandwidth costs go up again so the devs would need paying by the advertisers, and it gets rather complicated.

Simple - charge the servers to have the stuff on LFSW.

As for porn content.. if a server op were to deliver that kind of content, I'd hope Scawen would switch off that IP at the master server end.

It's legal (well, the stuff adverised on ITV4 is) , and there is the what consititutes porn business. A real life FIA GT car (a Pagani if I recall correctly) which was sponsored by Playboy and a major porn distributor wasn't allowed to start for a rollcage issue, but I feel sure that the sponsorship played in to the decision. Trust me, I wouldn't let porn ads be run in the SGPS.

I really can't see it being an issue.. I haven't seen anything offensive on car skins (apart from maybe once or twice) and I'm assuming that Victor isn't throwing hours per week at policing skins. My presupposition is that server operators are always going to operate to a standard of practice where this kind of issue would never arise.

It could be an issue - ads to an almost entirely male 18-30 audience ... who are (ok then, I don't have the stats on my hand) the most likely people to purchase *ahem* adult material and telephone services.

Also, I can see another issue. Let's say the server is sponsored by Bonehead Servers. Would an admin start kicking someone who was sponsored by IdiotServers*? In NASCAR there was some business about not having new mobile phone sponsors (the Cup series being sponsored by Sprint NEXTEL), some drivers who were running grandfathered in ones and other telecommunications companies having greyscale suit logos and also not calling it the NEXTEL cup - Unless my memory is playing tricks with me Corey Costello, the guy who does the stock car zone, a very good stock car racing podcast, said that he did an infomercial with 1 or 2 drivers from a team sponsored by xingular, and them saying that he had to refer to it as the NASCAR Cup series or he would be fired (he said this on his podcast).

* Both fictional server hosting companies that are nothing to do with any real ones. Replace with Intel and AMD if you want. Or ATI and Nvidia. Or Logitech and Thrustmaster.

SamH

17th June 2007, 20:06

-1 :thumbsdow

I despise TV programs and movies that try to get me to buy stuff. I use an ad-blocker and a spam filter. I avoid websites that pop up commercial garbage. I try to keep my doormat free from paper ads. And it's no different when I'm playing LFS.

Product placement would ruin my fun in racing. If a server admin would throw in billboard ads for real products, I'd disconnect immediately. And if the devs would need to insert ads to cover their costs, I'll happily pay some extra money for an ad-free licence.

In real-life racing money talks. Do you want it to be that way in LFS, too?

Forget it. Sponsors won't pay for ads that can be turned off with a simple click. Next, admins of sponsored servers will be asking Scawen for a server-side option to ignore ad-blocking.
Amid the plethora of negativity, I'm gathering that you don't watch motorsports either IRL or on TV. That's your choice, but it's far and away from the norm for motorsports enthusiasts who are either not bothered by the advertising, or often even actively align themselves with, and promote brands themselves, because of their association with their favourite team/driver.

There'd be absolutely no need to ask Scawen for an ad-blocker. Don't join the commercially financed server. This has already been covered. Read the thread.
If you want to offer actual prizes, then require a fee from drivers who want to enter the competition.
That's an alternative, but not the one I'm proposing.

@duketoaster, that's all just scaremongery. Too silly to respond to.

scurrg

17th June 2007, 20:39

I think this is a good idea. We already have trackside billboards which nobody seems to mind, why not have a little variety? It would give the servers a bit of a different look and feel.

Really, it's just skins for the billboards, make it a client side option to turn it off and stick with the default billboard skins.

I think you would see more ads for teams, servers and upcoming events than you would see commercial ads anyway.

:thumbsup:

Electrik Kar

17th June 2007, 20:53

Too silly to respond to.

Maybe not really. My girlfriend works in qualitative market research, her clients include people behind some of the biggest global brands in the world today, and I tellsya... the stories she brings home about some of these marketting people in her day to day dealings... makes your skin crawl. Petty, jealous, ruthless, infantile, obsessive, evil. There's really no notion of mutual benefits for these people, they only want what they want and they know they can use money to get it. I'm not saying there aren't good sponsors out there, but I would be thinking very seriously about all this before simply saying 'hey, great idea'.

If you're aiming for the sponsorship possibility because you're really just looking to expand beyond your current means (second server), then I think that's quite irresponsible. If great prizes are a goal, then the alternative is entry fees for leagues, etc. I'm not sure if I'm really seeing the whole point to all this. :shrug:

I'm sure Scavier are already quite finely tuned to the pitfalls and promises that such a step would possibly bring to their sim. It's their call, as always.

wsinda

17th June 2007, 21:34

There'd be absolutely no need to ask Scawen for an ad-blocker. Don't join the commercially financed server. This has already been covered. Read the thread.I did read the thread. In post #54 you said, in response to AndroidXP:
I'm sure Scawen would ensure that it would be optional. If I had a choice, I'd ask for default to be on (auto download), because it lends leverage when server ops are talking to sponsors, but I'm confident that nobody who objected would be forced. I would definitely make that decision to accept/refuse detectable by server ops, though. I think that's important, for collecting stats etc.If I read you correctly, you say downloading ads should be a user-selectable option. If so, it would be fine with me. Ad-haters like me can set it to "off", racing fans who want things to look like real life set it to "on". Problem solved.

But I'm skeptical that it would be like that, because an easy way to block ads will diminish their value (less eyeballs). Sponsors will pay less, so admins of sponsored servers will be tempted/pressured by sponsors to refuse connections from "ad-blocked" visitors. I think you are leaning that way, because you want the blocking to be detectable for the server, and in post #61 you state:
Don't join the commercially financed server.It's not a "plethora of negativity", Sam. I'm strongly against commercialism, yes, but for good reasons. I think it's detrimental to society. But let's keep that discussion for some other thread.

LFS has been a "non-commercialised" sim until now, and for me that was an important reason to buy it and to join the community. I'd hate to see that go.

STROBE

17th June 2007, 21:35

@duketoaster, that's all just scaremongery. Too silly to respond to.
Oh, you mean the caveats I raised in my post that he was replying to? Thanks.

As it happens, I work in market research too, although the company I work for is purely on the research side, and we cover both qual and quantitative work. I second EK's comments about the people we meet as our clients - utterly single-minded about pushing their product and winning market share. You can dismiss such concerns if you like, but the fact remains that the LFS market is advertising nirvana for those peddling less than family friendly products. If there's going to be auto in-game advertising, especially if rotated on occasion to introduce new ads, then there's going to have to be some kind of content checking.

Not scaremongering or "silly", just thinking of the necessary precautions required to implement an otherwise good idea.

SamH

17th June 2007, 21:54

I did read the thread. In post #54 you said, in response to AndroidXP:
If I read you correctly, you say downloading ads should be a user-selectable option. If so, it would be fine with me. Ad-haters like me can set it to "off", racing fans who want things to look like real life set it to "on". Problem solved.
Agreed. Ad blocking is different from selecting an option. We'd discussed ad-blocking by IP-blocking earlier in the thread, and that's what I assumed you were referring to. Misunderstanding. :)

But I'm skeptical that it would be like that, because an easy way to block ads will diminish their value (less eyeballs). Sponsors will pay less, so admins of sponsored servers will be tempted/pressured by sponsors to refuse connections from "ad-blocked" visitors. I think you are leaning that way, because you want the blocking to be detectable for the server
I wouldn't personally opt for that route and I'm quite sure there would be plenty of servers that wouldn't either. We'd never be short of places to race, but I think that it's reasonable information for server operators to have. It's not pivotal, but it is fair.
It's not a "plethora of negativity", Sam. I'm strongly against commercialism, yes, but for good reasons. I think it's detrimental to society. But let's keep that discussion for some other thread.

LFS has been a "non-commercialised" sim until now, and for me that was an important reason to buy it and to join the community. I'd hate to see that go.
I'm personally not at all opposed to commercialism. I am opposed to in-your-face, aggressive advertising. I'm opposed to misleading advertising. I'm opposed to lots of things in commerce that are common practice, that other people accept or regard as normal. I've also worked in the service industry and in the marketing industry for many a year, and I've (I think) a well-developed opinion on all of this stuff. What I am proposing is 100% contextually appropriate. It's nothing that isn't there already. The only difference is that what I'm proposing will offer server operators who currently incur expense monthly to recoup their costs, and to offer more than they do already. The potential net gain for the LFS community is there, if the community will recognise it.

LFS IS a commercial product. It's a business. The multiplayer environment within which you play IS a paid-for environment. It isn't just born in the ether. Every server, capable of handling 32 players and an additional 15 spectators is paid for by SOMEone.

My proposal enables that multiplayer community to do more, to achieve more, and to give more to you. That's what this is about, and nothing else.

SamH

17th June 2007, 21:57

Not scaremongering or "silly", just thinking of the necessary precautions required to implement an otherwise good idea.
In the way the concern was raised, it was reasonable. It's the protracted assertions taken from what you said that got silly. We are not inundated by pornographic content on skins, nor are we inundated by horny server names. Pornographic content, in any form, is forbidden in the LFS environment and server operators are not exempt from those T&C. Basically it's already covered. :)

What I'm saying is that the response "it's legal" to me saying I'd hope Scawen would turn off IPs hosting porn billboards is silly scaremongery. Whether or not it's legal has absolutely nothing to do with anything. In this environment, it's NOT permitted and therefore Scawen would be perfectly within his rights to turn off those IPs.

Gil07

17th June 2007, 22:23

Electrik Kar

17th June 2007, 22:40

SamH

17th June 2007, 22:42

He's not saying that. He's saying that at the moment, it's innocent. It's art. Disconnected from the real world of 'insert famous driver' holding up a can of oil, giving his best cheezy grin and proclaiming 'this is the stuff I use'. He wants to get away from that.

Me too.
Nope, I don't think he is. I think he's presenting an argument he hasn't thought through. Sorry, but there are serious problems with that logic. Intel is a real product, Credit Suisse is real, BMW is real and Michelin is real.

Half-baked argument, though I'm guessing it's based on a genuine gut reaction, but I'm afraid it's not pursuant to logic.

Gil07

17th June 2007, 22:45

He's not saying that. He's saying that at the moment, it's innocent. It's art. Disconnected from the real world of 'insert famous driver' holding up a can of oil, giving his best cheezy grin and proclaiming 'this is the stuff I use. You should too'. He wants to get away from that.

Me too.

Of course, me too. But replacing some fake brand writing with some real brand writing is hardly going to make a difference, is it? And if it helps supporting leagues and servers, why not?

BarretOocR

17th June 2007, 23:12

hi ! well i have played with the dds files and it is easy to change for your

self. But the boards are mostly the same like south city. have to try it out

but it sucks for now . I say like lcd screens at the starting line for each

server (deticated) to host all their own sponcers (aka Vidio) 0r (Slide Show)

Alot of servers are haven bigger races and even have sponcer ship, I think

instead of being sponcered ( well it is ok to be sponcered) the deticated

host can make a little coin for them selves or their team. lateforums have

been made for this so i do think it would be easy. Not coming from me but

who ever can code this into the game witch it would be the dev's or somone

else .

Electrik Kar

17th June 2007, 23:29

But replacing some fake brand writing with some real brand writing is hardly going to make a difference, is it?

Not on the surface. On the surface, I imagine you'll probably hardly notice a blip. Or an Intel. But, maybe a blimp!? :scratchch

What's wrong with a sponsor graphic type thing within the Multiplayer screen as skins etc are loading up? That worked for the Battefield series before things got very strange and ads started popping up in the year 2142 suggesting you buy an Intel Core II Duo. :pillepall

There's also the message popup. Wouldn't it be too hard to include your sponsors message as well? That leaves the game itself left alone, while servers that choose to pursue sponsorship can get their message across. I don't see why you guys aren't already doing that? Unless the sponsors are already clamouring for rights to the game itself. Maybe their modeler guy is busy working on a nice blimp.

Sorry guys, but I'm also having a gut reaction. A big, swirly, churny, spasmy one. It's the principle of the thing. The initial stage to these kinds of steps seem so simple and beneficial. Promises are given- all parties will benefit etc, we'll give back to the community etc etc.. But the reality often turns out something very different.

Makes me wonder how many good things have actually turned to poo because someone had to say 'hey, you know what this thing needs? Some decent sponsorship!!'

Ok, well that's my end of the stick. G'night.

SamH

17th June 2007, 23:44

Electrik Kar, believe me I understand the resistance against advertising. I'm very intolerant of misplaced advertising, or obstructive advertising, wasting trees and wasting my time.

I remain confident that the thing I am suggesting here in the improvement suggestions section is not a window of opportunity for myself to make any money, nor is it something that I think either could or would be exploited by anyone else for their own individual gain.

I honestly believe that the end result of implementing this idea would be fast servers with low pings, all the bandwidth that would ever be needed being available at peak times of the day, on less contested server racks, in more up-market and stable datacentres, with more packets per second than is normally happening now. The only other thing you would perhaps notice is, as you drive around the track and if you should happen to glance up at one of the billboards instead of concentrating on your driving, see a Logitech billboard instead of a HiBITE billboard. All of that should be enough to please a sponsor and more than enough to please the LFS racers. Everyone would benefit, and you would lose nothing.

Shotglass

18th June 2007, 00:07

Regarding in-league and in-server behaviour, it's entirely up to league and server operators who offer prizes to assert appropriate driving standards. Truthfully, I only have experience of STCC league racing.

wait are you talking about advertising during league races to get some prizes for the league racers or advertising on the public ctra servers for prizes to the public racers ?

SamH

18th June 2007, 00:11

wait are you talking about advertising during league races to get some prizes for the league racers or advertising on the public ctra servers for prizes to the public racers ?
Both. Being able to advertise within the broadcast of the STCC was essential in winning the sponsorship & prizes from Logitech. Not being able to offer the same thing in public racing is, at the moment, the biggest stumbling block for winning server hardware sponsorship for public racing.

[edit] Prizes for public racing would only be possible if we were able to get enough sponsorship (i.e. demand a high enough price) to have an excess after costs had been accounted for.

Ian.H

18th June 2007, 08:36

Sam, you say you go out of your way to avoid general advertisements on web sites, in e-mail etc.. why do you think _you_ peddling that trash is any different from any other marketer or spammer on the planet? They're only interested in one thing, which you seem to be too, as everyone who disagrees with you is "silly" or just "scaremongering" or "afraid".

What's so different between you wanting to advertise and some other company that you may well block in your web browser? Why do you think your ads must be seen by others but it's ok for you to avoid other peoples?

You sound like a typical marketer.. a droid, no idea about what people really want.. the _only_ important thing is your next lead so you can get paid.

To me, it sounds like you want to be something you can't afford to be and want someone to pick up the tab for your servers.. but no doubt you'll deny it ;)

Regards,

Ian

AndroidXP

18th June 2007, 08:56

One thing I'm asking myself is, what is so outrageous about billboards that change once in a while? Which could even be turned off.

Have you lost all trust in Scawen? I mean, seeing any implementation of ad support is already very unlikely, yet alone one you cannot turn off. All these horror visions of ads anywhere else than billboards I read about are just plain paranoia and IMO quite ridiculous. I bet you're remembering back to the countless times Scavier have sold themselves out to some big (evil) corporation, no? You know, because money is their main concern regarding LFS. :really:

Way to blow things out of proportion...

Ian.H

18th June 2007, 09:33

One thing I'm asking myself is, what is so outrageous about billboards that change once in a while? Which could even be turned off.

I just don't like ads, period.. I spend far too many hours a day having to deal with unwanted marketing gumph. I change channels on TV when ads appear.. I go out of my way to avoid as much as possible.. I certainly don't want forced advertising in a game which I'd be playing to try and relax after a day's work of dealing with crap.

I can change every ad in the game to a plain white texture if I wanted to.. force these server side and I no longer have that option and I'm forced to see whatever ads the server thinks I want to see. I _never_ by anything from an advert I've seen and certainly don't plan to start now.

Have you lost all trust in Scawen? I mean, seeing any implementation of ad support is already very unlikely, yet alone one you cannot turn off.

Being able to turn off ads defeats the purpose and companies just won't buy it, thus making the whole thing moot, which works for me.. not sure it'd work for the sponsors.

All these horror visions of ads anywhere else than billboards I read about are just plain paranoia and IMO quite ridiculous. I bet you're remembering back to the countless times Scavier have sold themselves out to some big (evil) corporation, no? You know, because money is their main concern regarding LFS. :really:

Way to blow things out of proportion...

Nothing to do with Scawen et al at all. What the hell gave you that idea? Where did I once mention Scawen or any part of the dev team or LFS in relation to them? It's Sam who's trying to line his pockets, not Scawen.

Regards,

Ian

AndroidXP

18th June 2007, 10:36

Being able to turn off ads defeats the purpose and companies just won't buy it, thus making the whole thing moot, which works for me.. not sure it'd work for the sponsors.Well, then they won't buy it. I don't think Scawen cares about them. He would (if at all) implement it for the server hosts, because they want the ability to load their ads over the current static ones. Scawen wouldn't sell it to the marketing companies, but implement a feature for his customers.

Nothing to do with Scawen et al at all. What the hell gave you that idea? Where did I once mention Scawen or any part of the dev team or LFS in relation to them? It's Sam who's trying to line his pockets, not Scawen.
It has everything to do with Scawen, because he is the one who'd implement it and it depends on him on how invasive these ads could get. As of now, these custom ads are absolutely non invasive because they don't exist, and at most they'd be as invasive as you'd allow them to be via the options. An implementation not allowing to turn them off would be completely against everything the devs stand for and would alienate quite a large chunk of the community. With your fears of those advertising horror scenarios you were basically implying that Scawen allowed such an implementation in the first place, which is why I brought him up.

Dajmin

18th June 2007, 11:21

I'm sure this was mentioned months ago and didn't get a very positive response, but I have no problem with it.

We already have trackside adverts (Intel, ESL, Freno, RSC, Takai, Cromo, Castrol, Tico, etc) and the usable tyre brands, so what difference would a few more banners make? I don't know if those brands paid the guys to add them or what the deal was, but if it adds to the LFS fund then all the better.

As long as they don't use EA's Battlefield 2142 method of "targeted" advertising (or "spyware" as I call it) with rented space I think we'll be fine. But I can't see Scawen going for that anyway.

tinyk

18th June 2007, 11:47

I don't know if the ads currently in LFS are there with permission of those companies or not... but if they are... then there's a reason the devs chose those specific ones to add. Intel is the first one to come to mind. We know why it's there. :) Why would the devs want to allow the ads to be changed if they've added them for a specific reason like that? :)

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~

theirishnoob

18th June 2007, 12:10

lfs can get major sponsorship because if you look at the Irish racing seen for example , its nothing special compared to America or the u.k But company's are throwing money at anyone with talent or anyone that will advertise thee product , lfs might not be as big as other games you can name but the potential of this game as everyones seen in the passed is far surpasses any of them other game because of are great development team.

all we need now is a rich company to spot this great opportunity and the team should have the fund to get this game bigger and better :)

AndroidXP

18th June 2007, 12:14

...What the heck are you talking about? :really:

This is not about sponsoring LFS but the server hosts, and besides that, more money doesn't mean LFS will develop any faster or suddenly get 10 new features.

Ian.H

18th June 2007, 12:41

Well, then they won't buy it. I don't think Scawen cares about them. He would (if at all) implement it for the server hosts, because they want the ability to load their ads over the current static ones. Scawen wouldn't sell it to the marketing companies, but implement a feature for his customers.

I think you're missing the point dude.. it's not about what Scawen cares about per-se, it's the fact that some individual who happens to run a server wants to be able to show ads to anyone who connects to line his pockets, like most marketers.

I know LFS isn't all about money.. that's patently obvious when you look at the Intel / Sauber deal with them not agreeing to all requirements.. I'm pretty sure they lost out to an extent on that deal due to it, but it shows their morals.

I haven't even thought about Scawen selling to anyone.. I really don't know where you're getting that idea from.. the most I expect from Scawen in this respect would be the ability to set billboard or whatever materials to be able to be affected dynamically, much like car skins, nothing more, nothing less, least of all selling anything to anyone.

It has everything to do with Scawen, because he is the one who'd implement it and it depends on him on how invasive these ads could get. As of now, these custom ads are absolutely non invasive because they don't exist, and at most they'd be as invasive as you'd allow them to be via the options. An implementation not allowing to turn them off would be completely against everything the devs stand for and would alienate quite a large chunk of the community. With your fears of those advertising horror scenarios you were basically implying that Scawen allowed such an implementation in the first place, which is why I brought him up.

Again you're referring to options. You work in IT, not trying to sound sarcastic, but are you oblivious to day-to-day marketing online? How many companies are going to want to pay Sam to advertise on his servers knowing that 80% (just a figure) of people connecting will have dynamic ads disabled? Would you pay a hefty sum for advertising knowing that? I certainly wouldn't.

Sam's not talking about options either, or rather, the only option is not to connect to the servers he wants to peddle this trash on.

It still has nothing to do with Scawen.. I don't care _how_ the ads may be served, I don't want to see them, period.. be it intrusive or otherwise... hence I say it has nothing to do with him.. you're assuming I care how they're served not if :)

Regards,

Ian

CSU1

18th June 2007, 13:00

At the end of the day having ads on billboards in LFS can only result in one thing, a better experience for the client from well maintained hosts.

Having the option to 'turn it off' is plain ignorant, host need an income to provide a good service. Ads are a part of everyday life(when you go to a nascar event do you turn your nose up at all the advertisement; the people who pay for events to give you the customer a day out racing?) and will only add to the realism of the sim imo.

Ads bringing money to hosts and creating jobs within the LFS community is the ONLY way the development of this sim can ever stand on two legs in the future and after s3 final, unless in two years time Scawen needs to sell out to whoever and then we'll have a locked untouchable copyrighted final result:shrug:

+1 for financial support for hosts, if you don't get funding this way to maintain the service you provide, LFS will need to start chopping off its limbs and selling its organs.

AndroidXP

18th June 2007, 13:20

Ian.H

18th June 2007, 13:52

@Ian: I see your point, but it seems you're more protesting against the idea of advertising in principle, while I try to look at the outcomes and implementations that I assume* are actually realistically possible (taking the stance of Scavier into account).

That pretty much nails it.. it's not what method may be used, I simply don't like advertising / commercialism. Obviously race tracks etc in the real world are plastered with them these days unfortunately and it would look strange seeing LFS with nothing but corrugated steel, so the textures we have in the game have been designed in a way to compliment it and give it some realistic atmosphere so to speak.

There's a _big_ difference between having some artwork representing a real life company logo and blatant advertising however :)

You're right, I don't know the ins and outs of day to day marketing, but I don't give a rats ass either :).

I don't know too much about _marketing_ per-se, but have worked my nuts off fighting to keep myself and others as free of their trash as possible. It costs me ~2 hours every morning, 7 days a week dealing with unwanted marketing crap, I guess that doesn't help me welcome to this idea.

Again you're giving the example of companies paying a hefty sum for advertising that might not even reach the customer. So what? Then they won't buy, or not pay a hefty sum but a much smaller one. Selling whatever method of advertising possible in LFS is job of the server hosts who want to get the money for it - if the "most intrusive" advertising Scawen would implement is not good enough for them, then why should we care.

What could happen?
They don't buy ads
Good for us - Bad/neutral for the server host
They buy ads
Good for us (as we can turn them off) / Good for the server host
Scawen deems the whole thing not important/viable enough and thus leaves it out completely (which is IMO most likely, btw)
No change whatsoever

Ahh but you're assuming an option again to turn them on and off. I'm assuming there would be no option as it wouldn't be a worthwhile venture then for companies to invest. I only really mentioned that most would disable them after you mentioned having it optional previously. If it's optional, I wouldn't be "complaining" about it as I'd simply disable it, but I'm ssuming it'd be like ads plastered all over web sites where it's not optional, unless you go a specific route to rectify things yourself (noscript / null-routing etc). I just don't see how marketing can ever be profitable if it becomes optional for the end user to see it or not hence I never really considered that an option :)

Also, think about some of the top named drivers in LFS that are known by many in and possibly outside of LFS with nice team / personal skins with real life company logos on them for "realism", how would a company paying for a texture on a billboard perhaps feel about their competitors being on well known cars on various servers, all for free! Knowing some of the playground politics that does surround the marketing game, this wouldn't be "cool".

Yes, I don't like advertising, but I don't see what is so scary about the implementations that could actually happen. The real point however is, we haven't heard a word from Scawen about this, so all this discussing and arguing is just wild and silly theorycrafting from both sides. I on my part will just shut up about that now :)

* Granted, my argument is based on how I perceive the devs, but I hope I'm not that far off. Of course I could be wrong.

It's not scary.. I don't like fish (eating it) either, but I'm not scared of fish :) It's all about principle and the way this world is becoming more and more advert crazy.. maybe it's just me, but not so sure :)

Regards,

Ian

SamH

18th June 2007, 14:43

I don't know too much about _marketing_ per-se, but have worked my nuts off fighting to keep myself and others as free of their trash as possible. It costs me ~2 hours every morning, 7 days a week dealing with unwanted marketing crap, I guess that doesn't help me welcome to this idea.
So this has nothing to do with changing billboards in LFS and everything to do with your daily life, then. Why are you posting this nonsense?
Ahh but you're assuming an option again to turn them on and off. I'm assuming there would be no option as it wouldn't be a worthwhile venture then for companies to invest. I only really mentioned that most would disable them after you mentioned having it optional previously. If it's optional, I wouldn't be "complaining" about it as I'd simply disable it, but I'm ssuming it'd be like ads plastered all over web sites where it's not optional, unless you go a specific route to rectify things yourself (noscript / null-routing etc). I just don't see how marketing can ever be profitable if it becomes optional for the end user to see it or not hence I never really considered that an option :)
We've already covered the option to turn off the banners like you can turn off auto skin downloads.

Ian, if you're going to take the time to post, at least do us all the courtesy of reading the thread you're posting in.

Also, think about some of the top named drivers in LFS that are known by many in and possibly outside of LFS with nice team / personal skins with real life company logos on them for "realism", how would a company paying for a texture on a billboard perhaps feel about their competitors being on well known cars on various servers, all for free! Knowing some of the playground politics that does surround the marketing game, this wouldn't be "cool".
So you're not using the auto skin download feature either, right? If you're that against advertising, I'm assuming this is the case, because this would be logical and support your argument. Do you also refuse to race at Aston because of the real life advertising banners there? Do you delete the ATL and Castrol DDS files, in order to avoid in-your-face billboard advertising in LFS? Seriously, Ian, if you don't, you have no argument.

It's all about principle and the way this world is becoming more and more advert crazy.. maybe it's just me, but not so sure :)
Yeah, and nothing about the topic of this thread. Do us the decency of being contextually reasoned. I mean REALLY.

nihil

18th June 2007, 14:46

Half-baked argument....

LFS is fairly half-baked... We're happy to accept fictional cars, but to improve "realism" we need real-life product placement? Don't think so....

There's a _big_ difference between having some artwork representing a real life company logo and blatant advertising however etc etc

I have to agree (except for the bit about fish.... You are so wrong there...)

SamH

18th June 2007, 15:20

LFS is fairly half-baked... We're happy to accept fictional cars, but to improve "realism" we need real-life product placement? Don't think so....
I don't think you could lift that further out of context without enlisting the help of NASSA. :really:

Originally Posted by Ian.H
There's a _big_ difference between having some artwork representing a real life company logo and blatant advertising however etc etc

I have to agree (except for the bit about fish.... You are so wrong there...)
Who's talking about flashing banners and zingy promos? We're talking about replacing billboards with billboard-style advertising.

It's totally bizarre to me, to see people so obsessively anti-advertising and so utterly paranoid that they think that servers would degrade the LFS experience with stupid advertising. It's a seriously weird starting point.

[ADT]sid

18th June 2007, 15:20

well i really dont see any diference betwean real sponsorship as android say the money from the sponsorship could invet it in the host or other stuf but i think that no1 would like to have sponsors everywere..
i was triying to find a picture with smething full of sponsor but i ddnt find anithing :P so. u remember The idiocracy ? the world was cover of sponsor :razz:

nihil

18th June 2007, 15:51

I don't think you could lift that further out of context without enlisting the help of NASSA. :really:

Yeah, fair comment... but the only response I have is: "I don't need advertising.". I would far and away prefer to have some real-life tracks, but I don't really need that either. I have GPL for that.

SamH

18th June 2007, 16:04

sid;460237']well i really dont see any diference betwean real sponsorship as android say the money from the sponsorship could invet it in the host or other stuf but i think that no1 would like to have sponsors everywere..
i was triying to find a picture with smething full of sponsor but i ddnt find anithing :P so. u remember The idiocracy ? the world was cover of sponsor :razz:
Yep, I'm not asking to ADD new advertising space, I'm just asking for the option to change *some/all* of the existing fictional ones in their current/existing places.
Yeah, fair comment... but the only response I have is: "I don't need advertising.". I would far and away prefer to have some real-life tracks, but I don't really need that either. I have GPL for that.
Yep, you don't need advertising. You've spent £24 and you have the run of lots of free servers at absolutely no cost to you. It's a great situation to be in, and what I'm proposing wouldn't change that.

As for real tracks/cars, that's an entirely separate topic and doesn't need addressing in this thread.

mrodgers

18th June 2007, 16:22

Yeah, fair comment... but the only response I have is: "I don't need advertising.". I would far and away prefer to have some real-life tracks, but I don't really need that either. I have GPL for that.
This isn't an issue of "you needing" or "I needing" advertising. It's an issue of those who want and can get the advertising sponsorship for their servers.

I probably wouldn't mind UKCT or any one elses servers having these ad bilboards and downloading them like skins when joining their servers. As long as it stopped at simple in game immersive graphics such as billboards and the various fictional signage that is already in LFS for immersion. It's when the advertising becomes intrusive is where I begin to care.

Two problems I see with in-game advertising. The first one is, like was said earlier, they aren't going to want to just stick some ads in the game. They are going to want data. Data on who, what, when, where, how many times the ad is being seen.

The second problem is they would want their ads to be seen and to be easily noticed. Ads at a race track isn't for the drivers. It is for the fans to see and the television viewers. I don't know about you, but when racing LFS, I do not notice the ad billboards, or I should say, don't notice what is on those billboards. They are setup to be an immersive part of the race track. You would see ad boards at the real track, so they must be there for the immersion in a racing sim. But they are not easily viewable, you just know they are there. The marketing focus of the advertising is going to be the LFS drivers, not the viewing audience. Thus they are going to want the boards to stand out and be noticed by the targeting audience, us the drivers. This leaves the immersion of having boards at the side of the track out of our perspective view and they are going to want it in our direct view.

In general about advertising, I'm with Ian H. I hate advertising as I do think I already know what McDonald's is (not that I'd ever eat there again...) and I surely am not watching TV and exclaiming, "Wow! McDonald's, I have to try that!" Advertising is a huge waste of money where they spend millions and millions of dollars and pass that on to us the consumer. As for our situation here about advertising within LFS, even with the ad base sticking with a racing sim or computer gaming based agenda, I already know who Logitech is. I already know who Intel or AMD is, or ATI and nVidia. There simply is no need to target me or you with wasted money spent on advertising and costing the consumers of said products. In their eyes though, it makes no difference how much it costs them. Because it doesn't cost them anything. We are the ones paying for all the advertising through the rising cost of consumer goods.

Becky Rose

18th June 2007, 16:27

PROPOSAL

LFS World includes trackside adverts as a skin upload option.
Server hosts can specify uploaded skins for 2 or 3 of the existing billboard textures around each LFS track
To reduce overall usage and keep the billboards being used for their intended purposes (advertising) and not "Becky woz ere" banners, server hosts pay a token fee to Scawen to upload/make use of this feature.ALTERNATIVE

Advertisements are placed via the insim button interface.Take your pick.

Of course when it comes to the specific case of the servers i'm involved with then we'll always take the route of not annoying our racers, or doing things which are not in the spirit of LFS - because we love LFS too.

Just be aware that advertising is possible in LFS right now, we can make pop ups and flashing banners. What we cant do right now is make them sympathetic to the actual game by making use of the advertising that is already in LFS by actually leasing it out.

Would you rather have a realistic billboard ad, or a flashing pop up on your screen?

If LFS is to grow and sim racing is to become a sport in its own right then at some point commercial interests will have to be taken into consideration, I think its better that its done sympathetically to the game than to force advertisements onto the user in a manner that they wont like.

SamH

18th June 2007, 16:48

It was mentioned earlier, and I forgot to address it because I was busy addressing some paranoid nonsense by someone, I forget now. Anyway, I think a token fee paid to LFSW by server ops and files hosted at LFSW is absolutely reasonable. You can either regard it as abuse protection, as it is with skins, or you can regard it as revenue sharing. Either way, the net result would be the same and would, I'm quite sure, set many nervous minds at rest. I'm all in favour of this being the route.

Ian.H

18th June 2007, 16:49

Would you rather have a realistic billboard ad, or a flashing pop up on your screen?

I already have realistic looking billboards.. how will they be any more realistic just because the paint on them has been pumped from your server rather than my local HDD? I can also paint mine just how I like with _any_ real life company logos, why would it be different just because you get paid to do it? :scratchch

What you really mean is you (ie: this whole operation, not you personally) don't gain cash.

If LFS is to grow and sim racing is to become a sport in its own right then at some point commercial interests will have to be taken into consideration, I think its better that its done sympathetically to the game than to force advertisements onto the user in a manner that they wont like.

"in a manner they won't like"... that for me is anything you want to pump through to me as an advert, so the best way not to annoy people who feel the same about advertising as I do is pretty simple :)

If this is just for your servers, then I really don't care as it'll never affect me, but will leave the LFS community if it becomes forced in-game by default (not that anyone will care, but if enough felt similar, it could be detrimental).. if there's an option, I'll disable it, but that seems somewhat pointless considering what you'd be trying to achieve.

Face it, this UKCT operation or whatever it's called today isn't ESL and very unlikely to be :)

If you're strapped for cash, either quit offering public services or charge people to enter your league, that'd be just as realistic. Funny how so many others can offer something to the public without having to ask for sponsorship or donations.. I've been doing it for years so have plenty of others.

Not aimed at you personally Becky.

Regards,

Ian

duke_toaster

18th June 2007, 17:02

]PROPOSAL

LFS World includes trackside adverts as a skin upload option.
]Server hosts can specify uploaded skins for 2 or 3 of the existing billboard textures around each LFS track
To reduce overall usage and keep the billboards being used for their intended purposes (advertising) and not "Becky woz ere" banners, server hosts pay a token fee to Scawen to upload/make use of this feature.

ALTERNATIVE

Advertisements are placed via the insim button interface.Take your pick.

Provided it is limited to 3 per environment, it would be acceptable - but what about people on slower connections? Some people (mrodgers until very recently) can use LFS with dialup. Server identity - or as you call them "Becky woz ere banners" might be wanted by some servers.

SamH

18th June 2007, 17:04

If you're strapped for cash, either quit offering public services or charge people to enter your league, that'd be just as realistic. Funny how so many others can offer something to the public without having to ask for sponsorship or donations.. I've been doing it for years so have plenty of others.
Read the thread, Ian.
We're not at all desperate for cash at CTRA in order to keep going. The server is sufficiently funded etc., and I have to say that the support and commitment from UKCT is fab.. but we could do more than we are doing if we had the extra bit of appeal to offer potential sponsors. The trackside billboards are *the* obvious way to be able to secure the bandwidth we'd love to use (~1TB/mo, pre-X) and, if we did a good enough job of selling our system, to offer something tangible to achievers on our servers.
By the way, Ian, someone drew my attention to the LFS skins you've created and posted over time. You're against real-product advertising in LFS? Really? No, REALLY?

Let me just laugh my ass off a bit more, before I say anything further. :)

[edit] Okay, done laughing now. Ian, I'm going to have a lot of difficulty perceiving any measure of credence in anything you post from here on. Your argument is wholly without merit. You cannot take the stance you do on this topic, with your skinning history. Your posts are wholly irrelevent, here.

SamH

18th June 2007, 17:09

Provided it is limited to 3 per environment, it would be acceptable - but what about people on slower connections? Some people (mrodgers until very recently) can use LFS with dialup. Server identity - or as you call them "Becky woz ere banners" might be wanted by some servers.
Could be 3, could be 4. Could be 2. Makes very little difference, since there would be (as previously mentioned in this thread) the option to disable auto-downloading of billboards.

Becky Rose

18th June 2007, 17:15

I already have realistic looking billboards.. how will they be any more realistic just because the paint on them has been pumped from your server rather than my local HDD?
I'm not talking about making billboards sympathetic, i'm talking about taking the concept of advertising - which is going to be an ever more prominent feature of sim racing as it grows - and making it sympathetic to the game, rather than in your face.

If this is just for your servers, then I really don't care as it'll never affect me, but will leave the LFS community if it becomes forced in-game by default (not that anyone will care, but if enough felt similar, it could be detrimental)
Resisting and fearing change is a normal reaction. Hating advertising is also a fairly human reaction - particularly for intelligent people, so I respect what you are saying here.

However, you ALREADY drive past adverts in LFS, and advertising in LFS is entirely sympathetic to what it's trying to achieve.

We're just asking for the ability to customise it a little, a bit like you have been doing on your race skins Ian. It's nice that you can go to any server and advertise as you have been doing, but as the people paying for you to do this, we'd like to advertise too.

EDIT:
Could be 3, could be 4. Could be 2. Makes very little difference, since there would be (as previously mentioned in this thread) the option to disable auto-downloading of billboards.
If it was possible to disable it then i'd like for that to be based on LFS' existing bandwidth detection system (like when starting a new game). I'm all for supporting 56k users on 32 car hosts - really, it's a great idea to have cars lagging all over the place, and if a bandwidth detection system lets those guys only cause serious harm to other racers on track - rather than catastrophic - that would be fine.

Dial up connections only really work up to about 15 players.

Gunn

18th June 2007, 17:24

I like being the one to decide what is displayed on billboards around the track in my LFS installation. If I don't like a company or product type I like to be able to replace it with something more appealing or morally sound.

Forcing ads upon me without giving me a choice of seeing them or not will quickly drive me away from any game. Unsolicited advertising should be illegal anyway.

bbman

18th June 2007, 17:31

I'm not against product placement per se, but I sure as hell don't want it to be a server-side thing... I always hated that in the other games (ET-mods, CS-billboards and so on)... I don't want to spend hours downloading ads (maybe even of varying quality), just to find the server isn't what I was looking for and have to spend hours downloading even more ads... Should I start about HDD-space or bandwith-limits?

It would be ok for me if there is a master-server advertise, that may change every month, but would be for every server universally...

Ian.H

18th June 2007, 17:34

I'm not talking about making billboards sympathetic, i'm talking about taking the concept of advertising - which is going to be an ever more prominent feature of sim racing as it grows - and making it sympathetic to the game, rather than in your face.

Then I guess my time in sim racing is going to be pretty short lived.

Resisting and fearing change is a normal reaction. Hating advertising is also a fairly human reaction - particularly for intelligent people, so I respect what you are saying here.

I'm not resisting or fearing change, what I don't want is ads that your operation thinks I want to see rather than what I _actually_ want to see.

However, you ALREADY drive past adverts in LFS, and advertising in LFS is entirely sympathetic to what it's trying to achieve.

And if I've painted them all to have pics of Happy Tree Friends? Even if I painted them as other companies, they'd be companies I wanted to see, not what you think I deserve to see because someone paid you to show me.

We're just asking for the ability to customise it a little, a bit like you have been doing on your race skins Ian. It's nice that you can go to any server and advertise as you have been doing, but as the people paying for you to do this, we'd like to advertise too.

Big Big BIG difference! Logos I've added to skins are basically for 2 reasons, 1:> because it adds a bit more authenticity to a design as most race cars these days are plastered with ads, 2:> because I'm too lazy to create all my own logos as fictional companies, I've done a few, don't have the time to do everything. Plus, at no point or time have I ever been paid a penny for adding a company logo to a skin, that's a _massive_ difference to what you're proposing.

I don't ask for donations for my sites that benefit visitors more than me personally, I pay for the bandwidth, bought the hardware and share its resources for free. I could easily add some banners or whatever to them, and I have plenty of sites I could utilise for them too, but I don't agree in forcing people to see ads, so they never have and never will contain any kind of paid advertising.

You're also not paying for anything for me.. we have 5 (1 S1) team servers currently (FWIW, being paid for by one of our team members and not asking for people to chip in) and I could personally set up a few more if I wished.. so please don't think I _need_ to race on other people's servers :)

Regards,

Ian

PS: Sam.. I wouldn't bother.. I'm halfway through a script to hide your posts.. so you may as well save your time.

SamH

18th June 2007, 17:56

I don't want to spend hours downloading ads (maybe even of varying quality), just to find the server isn't what I was looking for and have to spend hours downloading even more ads... Should I start about HDD-space or bandwith-limits?
Well, you could start talking on that level, but I may as well stop you here and point out that, off the top of my head, all the billboard files in a single server are likely to consume less bandwidth/HDD than one single, low-resolution car skin. :)

PMD9409

18th June 2007, 18:09

Just wondering, does your sponsor(s) even agree (or already agreed) to have advertising just on a few billboards?

bbman

18th June 2007, 18:14

Well, you could start talking on that level, but I may as well stop you here and point out that, off the top of my head, all the billboard files in a single server are likely to consume less bandwidth/HDD than one single, low-resolution car skin. :)

It would still be on top of that, so it is an issue to consider, if you like it or not...

TiJay

18th June 2007, 18:14

If it was possible to disable it then i'd like for that to be based on LFS' existing bandwidth detection system (like when starting a new game). I'm all for supporting 56k users on 32 car hosts - really, it's a great idea to have cars lagging all over the place
Dialup pings are sometimes as good as poor broadband pings, though.

nihil

18th June 2007, 18:18

This isn't an issue of "you needing" or "I needing" advertising.

But it should be... Simple question: Do I need it? Answer: No. Therefore, do not force it on me, and do not expect me to respond with anything other than reluctant cynicism to any suggestion that it might be useful.

Electrik Kar

18th June 2007, 21:39

Originally Posted by Ian.H http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=460131#post460131)
It's all about principle and the way this world is becoming more and more advert crazy.. maybe it's just me, but not so sure :)

Yeah, and nothing about the topic of this thread. Do us the decency of being contextually reasoned. I mean REALLY.

Well, I think that's a bit unfair, as the way I see it, it's got everything to do with this thread.

Sam, if you say that you're against misplaced advertising, then can't you see that maybe advertising within a computer game is misplaced advertising?

And Becky, it's a little dis-heartening hearing you go on all the time about what's wrong with the games industry- that commercial interests have taken over, that it's all gone to pot etc, and then be in support of ads in LFS. That's quite hypocritical. It's a little bit sad, because I think you're great, and you do such wonderful things for LFS. But now it just seems as though you're so eager to jump on the commercial bandwagon, DIY spirit be damned.

However, you ALREADY drive past adverts in LFS

No, we don't. It's something totally different at present. At the moment, they look like adverts. Please don't imagine for a second that this kind of trick reasoning will work. It just won't. It's totally beneath peoples dignity and intelligence that you even suggest that. Please don't.

edit: in fact, what's more below people's dignity and intelligence is the bizarre assumption that having a Logitech/AMD/Nvidia/Whatever advert plastered around some fictional track is going to somehow influence somebody's decision to buy that product. That's why this whole idea stinks. It's legitimising the idea... basically rendering human beings as mindless fools. Billboard advertising is a waste of money, a waste of effort, a waste of resources, a waste of people, and a waste of time. And potentially a waste of bandwidth.

SamH

19th June 2007, 00:50

Sam, if you say that you're against misplaced advertising, then can't you see that maybe advertising within a computer game is misplaced advertising?
Because you're either confusing the kind of advertising we're proposing with some other kind of advertising which we're not proposing, or some other such stretch. There is absolutely nothing misplaced about real-world billboards instead of fictional ones. You're just reacting to the concept of advertising in general, as a whole, en masse, as a global-capitalist-move-towards-world-domination, and you're not connecting, or are determined to avoid connecting, to reason. Basically it's a silly response to something so obviously not a silly idea.
And Becky, it's a little dis-heartening hearing you go on all the time about what's wrong with the games industry- that commercial interests have taken over, that it's all gone to pot etc, and then be in support of ads in LFS. That's quite hypocritical. It's a little bit sad, because I think you're great, and you do such wonderful things for LFS. But now it just seems as though you're so eager to jump on the commercial bandwagon, DIY spirit be damned.
I still think you're letting hysteria get in the way of reasoning. Becky's not charging for the software she's writing, and she's chucked plenty of cash at what's been achieved so far. Cash. Finite resource. Has to come from somewhere.
No, we don't. It's something totally different at present. At the moment, they look like adverts. Please don't imagine for a second that this kind of trick reasoning will work. It just won't. It's totally beneath peoples dignity and intelligence that you even suggest that. Please don't.
wth!? LOL! Who's tricking who into thinking what? "They only LOOK like adverts, but they're not, so they're okay"?? WTF?! LOL!

edit: in fact, what's more below people's dignity and intelligence is the bizarre assumption that having a Logitech/AMD/Nvidia/Whatever advert plastered around some fictional track is going to somehow influence somebody's decision to buy that product. That's why this whole idea stinks. It's legitimising the idea... basically rendering human beings as mindless fools. Billboard advertising is a waste of money, a waste of effort, a waste of resources, a waste of people, and a waste of time. And potentially a waste of bandwidth.
With all due respect, that's your politicized perspective and nobody's bound to agree with it. Myself included. If we did get a sponsor, it would be the sponsor's choice to invest. If they choose to invest because they believe in the product, that's their shout. That is the world we live in. And it IS the world we live in, and that's a fact.

SamH

19th June 2007, 00:59

I've fielded my improvement suggestion, anyway, and fought the corner. It's up to the Devs to decide if it's desirable and/or workable. I'm happy to leave it up to them to make the decision.. it's theirs to make, after all, and not ours :)

CSU1

19th June 2007, 02:17

Hankstar

19th June 2007, 02:37

If the devs want to implement this then it's their decision, but I have to ask: qui bono? Who benefits?

CSU1

19th June 2007, 02:46

If the devs want to implement this then it's their decision, but I have to ask: qui bono? Who benefits?

:rock_band TaDA! you too sir have totaly missed the point of this topic. Goodbye!

Hankstar

19th June 2007, 03:13

Who the feck pulled your chain? I didn't ask for you to grade my post.
Seriously kid, what is with you? :really:

SamH

19th June 2007, 03:39

I probably wouldn't mind UKCT or any one elses servers having these ad bilboards and downloading them like skins when joining their servers. As long as it stopped at simple in game immersive graphics such as billboards and the various fictional signage that is already in LFS for immersion. It's when the advertising becomes intrusive is where I begin to care.
Ack, sorry Mike.. I don't know why I didn't see this earlier. I'll just clarify this point: As Becky pointed out, we love LFS. In our minds and in our improvement suggestion, there is no room for anything other than content that would be totally in-keeping with the spirit of motor racing and/or sim racing. The possibility, *in our minds* of seeking sponsorship that is not contextual simply doesn't feature. What we're proposing would *only* add to the immersion factor, by replacing fictional content with real-life counterparts and/or alternatives.

I was briefly a little frustrated with the ney-sayers in the thread, some that haven't bothered to read the content of the improvement suggestion itself, and the rest of whom are trying to leverage stupid scaremongery by trying to invoke images of pop-up pr0n and spyware ads within LFS, and all of that nonsense is wholly irrelevent to the topic.

The ACTUAL improvement suggestion doesn't do anything that automatic skin downloads themselves don't already facilitate. The only difference is that it's the server admins skinning the existing billboards instead of just the racers skinning their existing cars, and the whole point of doing that is to help servers recover the costs they incur in providing the servers through sponsorship, and to improve/enhance/add to their services. It's not remotely make-or-break, it's just a proposal to make improvements more possible.

Shotglass

19th June 2007, 04:21

has anybody got actual numbers on how interested marketing departments would be in advertising on billboards which are hardly visible from the drivers point of view ?

i kinda see why they would be interested in plastering a fps where you often look at the billboard at a right angle with personalised ads
but general ads which arent costumized to the user flying past his view at 200kmh at a steep angle on the edge of the screen ... im having a few doubts if thats really worth much to them

Gunn

19th June 2007, 05:29

It's up to the Devs to decide if it's desirable and/or workable.Perhaps, but the devs can not decide whether it would be desirable or workable for me. If the devs decided that unsolicited advertising was to be a part of LFS I promise to fight them tooth and nail to try and change their minds.

If real sponsors end up on a dds file in my LFS installation I don't mind because I can change them or leave them be as I see fit. But if I'm going to have shit pumped onto my screen and have no control over what appears on the billboards then I simply would abandon LFS. And I don't mean that as some kind of threat, I simply feel strongly against lowlife advertising and spam in all forms, especially when it is forced upon me.

Another reason why I would not like dynamic custom sponsors displayed upon joining a server is because I would like to see the LFS billboards become an often-skinned item in our sim. Currently the mapping of the textures are terrible and stretching ruins the artwork completely. I have proposed a system where the textures are a uniform ratio that will map cleanly to any billboard or fence. A few billboards might need slight remodeling, but the problem could be solved this simply without the need to add a higher number of textures than LFS already uses. Currently, a limited number of textures are shared between advertising surfaces of varying proportions. This saves resources (which is good) but causes inappropriate mapping, (causing very bad stretching) and makes custom billboards a less popular consideration.

I think many people are grateful for what superficial modding can be done currently in LFS, I want control over my billboards (all of them) so that I customise LFS for my own enjoyment.

2c

Becky Rose

19th June 2007, 07:53

If the devs want to implement this then it's their decision, but I have to ask: qui bono? Who benefits?
Well, you do. At least in our case, we dug this idea out of the quagmigre of time as a way to improve our range of services by paying for new ideas and innovations that we cant afford to implement.

People enjoyed racing our servers because we offer something different, we put a few bells and whistles onto LFS that where not there before, all with the intention of enhancing LFS' core function - the racing.

But it should be... Simple question: Do I need it? Answer: No
Whilst working on the CTRA X-System i'm always asking the question: Do I need this feature, or is this just because I can? There is a fine line between implementing something that is useful and something that is annoying. It's easy to dismiss a suggestion such as this because it's core function, at the very heart of it, it's an annoyance, because we all hate advertising.

However, what it enables a big operator such as CTRA to do is a big benefit, and will go a long way to professionalising the sport without actually taking anything away from the game at all.

it's a little dis-heartening hearing you go on all the time about what's wrong with the games industry- that commercial interests have taken over, that it's all gone to pot etc, and then be in support of ads in LFS. That's quite hypocritical. It's a little bit sad, because I think you're great, and you do such wonderful things for LFS. But now it just seems as though you're so eager to jump on the commercial bandwagon, DIY spirit be damned
There are two types of project that interest me in LFS: Things that are seen as impossible; Things that will enhance the game.

If it's not a challenge or it detracts from LFS, then i'm not interested in being involved.

I wouldn't have posted at all in this thread if doing so did not further my own goals to further the game and be challenged by doing so.

Hankstar

19th June 2007, 08:03

Thanks for actually answering my question, BR, as opposed to just throwing faeces at me like an over-excited chimp.
I totally see your point too, even though adding bells n whistles like you mention wouldn't affect a slack-arse casual racer like me all that much :)

Electrik Kar

19th June 2007, 10:52

With all due respect, that's your politicized perspective and nobody's bound to agree with it. Myself included. If we did get a sponsor, it would be the sponsor's choice to invest. If they choose to invest because they believe in the product, that's their shout.

True. You're right. That's simply my perspective. I'm not in advertising, so I've got nothing to lose by holding this opinion.

But I think my previous point still stands.

At the moment, they look like adverts.

The difference, and I think it's a significant one, is that nobody's controlling the messages in the game space apart from Eric. (And the guys who mod these things). Eric's not being paid to advertise Castrol/ATL etc (as far as I know) so it's not really advertising, per se. Or you could make the point that it's free advertising, possibly without the brand's awareness. Paid advertising gives up prior ownership of this game space to someone who wants to push their own message, you're selling game real estate to somebody else. In the real world this is accepted practice, it's everywhere. But an entertainment (virtual) like computer games, this is a totally new domain for advertisers. Up until now, the medium's been virtually free of this kind of muscling to control messages within games. But, I can see a time when this is no longer true. It's actually already here, but so far it's quite minimal, and only in a few games that I can think of. But, it's opening up a channel, and will only get bigger from here on if people just accept that advertising within games is all well and good.

Simply saying that this is the world we live in isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned. It's more like, this is the world we have created, and are creating. Right now, nobody's controlling anything within LFS apart from the developers themselves. LFS isn't a thing where you're supposed to sit down to and start to be swayed by all the advertising thats going on. It's simply a racing game. Sponsored advertising changes this somewhat (profoundly or profanely, depending on your own perspective) and turns LFS into a racing game with a marketing agenda. Now, you're supposed to sit down (according to the advertisers and as promised by whoever's accepting money by allowing ads to be displayed) and be influenced by all the messages that you see happening around you. This is what sporting events have become over the last how many years. It's not just sport, it's a bucketload of advertising as well- actually you could say pretty truthfully that the emphasis is on the advertising, because that's where all the money's flowing and that's it's true purpose. To make money.

If LFS goes this way, then it's following a trend. You could just say this is the way it goes. But it'll be the way it goes because the dev's have made that choice. Because they've created it to be that way.

Whatever. I'm not going to lose (sleep) whether they choose one thing or another. I might even come on your server from time to time (trust me, I'll hardly notice the ads). I'm just saying that LFS will be a different thing, with a different purpose, to the one it serves now (entertaining people), if the devs go with your suggestion.

Becky Rose

19th June 2007, 11:10

The thing is, you wont notice the enhancements if this feature was not granted, things will carry on just fine and you can continue on in blissful ignorance of what might have been possible.

I know UKCT will continue to offer a range of enhanced & managed servers, i'm confident that the features of our new system will be appreciated by most and things will carry on as they did before.

One of the key problems in arguing for this is I dont want to give away our new 'secret weapon'. I'm working on something, that's as much as I want to say.

Now with the STCC I was able to offer product placement on the billboards in the broadcast ... nobody seemed to mind, and a good time was had by all and in exchange for that we had some nice prizes to give away. The problem is, it takes a broadcast to make that possible else the banners would be unseen.

Now imagine if you will, that without committing to a league, you could find yourself in receipt of a shiny new G25 or the latest graphics card, just because you where doing your hobby, and all you had to do to get this shiny new thing was play whilst driving past a billboard with texture B instead of texture A.

Imagine also, that CTRA are able to host a managed and enhanced server for the kind of car that you enjoy driving, rather than just a few tintops.

There's a lot that is possible just by having a few quid in the pot, we're not going to ask drivers for money to race public server and if we did we'd host empty servers.

We're not going to take the race 2 play route and ask for money just to share skins.

What we'd like to do is offer you great new features, but without money we cant do it, and we are fully aware that asking you for it is going to get us no where, but ...

If we can do all of this just for 0.25 seconds of your bandwidth whilst you connect to a server, is that okay with you guys?

mrodgers

19th June 2007, 11:28

Now with the STCC I was able to offer product placement on the billboards in the broadcast ... nobody seemed to mind, and a good time was had by all and in exchange for that we had some nice prizes to give away. The problem is, it takes a broadcast to make that possible else the banners would be unseen.
OMG! I watched all the STCC broadcasts, but never noticed any product placement ads on the billboards. Was any for Ford? I broke down and recently bought a Ford product, after watching all of the STCC races, against all of my opinions and thoughts on Ford. Do I have you to blame for indirectly for swaying my decision on purchasing a highly inferior product due to subliminal advertising that I do not recall seeing?

I'd watch the STCC races again to check out the adverts, but I now fear afterwards I would fall further and make the mistake of possibly purchasing a <gasp> Dell or something!

:D

Disclaimer: All in good fun there. Though I really never noticed anything different about the product placement billboards in the STCC broadcasts. It is still of my opinion that it is a complete waste of consumer's money for all this advertising because racing or spectating, you just don't notice it (talking advertising in general, not the specific topic Becky and Sam are discussing).

Electrik Kar

19th June 2007, 12:48

Sorry, couldn't help myself :D

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VCL432BO0e0

wsinda

19th June 2007, 19:25

What we'd like to do is offer you great new features, but without money we cant do it, and we are fully aware that asking you for it is going to get us no where, but ...

If we can do all of this just for 0.25 seconds of your bandwidth whilst you connect to a server, is that okay with you guys?Becky, Sam,

I'm sure you have great plans, and I'm grateful for all the wonderful things you have done so far. I also realise that running STCC/CTRA has cost you a lot of money, and that it will continue to be costly even with sponsoring.

Still, I'm against advertising. Not because of the bandwidth it costs; I have broadband, so I couldn't care less. But seeing ads does cost me money. Sponsors will only pay for the ads if they work. (OK, some sponsors may give money because they like your plans so much. But the average sponsor is well aware of the effectiveness of his ads.) Ads that work make sales rise, and the money from the sales came out of the pockets of the folks who watched the ads.

In short, the funds that you'd receive came from the visitors of your servers. But in an indirect way, and after the advertisement industry has gotten its share. You say you don't want to ask your visitors for money. But advertising also draws money from them -- without their consent, and (partly) outside their control.

With websites we've seen a technological arms race because of advertising. People who don't want to see ads invent ways to block them, and the folks who run the ads invent ways to circumvent the ad-blockers. Loads of effort has been spent in this war, in both camps. This may also happen in LFS.

Please consider this when you plan to cross the Rubicon.

al heeley

19th June 2007, 19:49

I couldn'nt give a monkeys for non-intrusive billboard ads when I'm racing, all part of the trackside scenery - real or virtual, it makes no difference. If it helps creative people like the CTRA add really great extra functionality to the game experience with the revenue then good luck to them. As long as they are non-intrusive, for me that is the pivotal factor.

xpjames

19th June 2007, 20:04

What about community advertising - keep it within LFS. Give the users the advertising space.

For example every 10,000 miles you do you get a space on a trackside billboard for a month. You could advertise your racing team (like the banners at the top of the forum), your company(if you've got one) or just yourself (your name and an artistic photo). The trackside images could be downloaded with skins (won't take up too much bandwidth). Then people could just show things like Cromo ads or whatever (well appropriate stuff!).

It makes it a LFS racer thing that would be just available to active racers, I don't quite know how it would work with offline stuff but surely for online it could just download the images from the master server each time you connect.

Just an idea to get users involved so they get to see what they want!

James :-)