Is blocking defensive driving?

[pine-fin]

Me and my poor brains

I raced on CTRA today, made a clean pass on last lap and defended position on last corner. After the race I get a comment 'nice blocking btw'. Now, I know the rules on defensive driving and I didnt drive against the rules, so I understood it as a negative comment and told him it was infact NOT blocking.

Later on, I read the rules section again on ctra and suprised to see blocking word in defensive driving part. Now, I don't know if the comment made meant GJ or FU :D If he meant the first one, I feel like a complete idiot for talking rubbish.

So did I get it wrong when I understand blocking as beeing a dirty bastard who drives against the rules and defensive driving as the correct term? Because.. I am sure as hell not the only one who has these words mixed up. I have seen many times the blocking word used as a negative comment on drivers.

Oh yes, I can see the upcoming misunderstanding in conversations;

racer:"You were blocking me!"
me:"Of course"
racer:"eh?"
..
..
pine-fin kicked

me:"goddamn it.."

Here you go. 3 angles; air-my view-his view (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_RUpD_Euk)

[sil3ntwar]

The car in front should only be allowed to change its driving line once before a corner. If you simply covered the inside thats fine. If you swerved across the road several times to stop him getting beside you thats blocking. Although it could be different on CTRA.

[AlienT.]

Some extract from the Gentlefoot challenge rules, these rules seem very fair enough to me anyway. :) Hope you don't mind me posting this GF.

Section 2 – On Track Conduct

2.1 Always avoid contact with another driver and give him room. Never move off the racing line if it will result in contact.
2.2 If you attempt a pass on another driver, give him opportunity to see you coming and ensure you have adequate overlap.
2.3 If a driver attempts a pass on you and has sufficient overlap you must leave space for them at the apex.
2.4 When defending a pass from another driver you are only allowed to switch position across the track once. Swerving from one side of the track and back again will result in penalties.
2.5 When recovering back on track after an incident cars already on track have the right of way over you. Anyone pulling back on track into the path of another car will be penalised.
2.6 When recovering from a spin you must give way to cars already proceeding on track.
2.7 If you damage your car to the point where it is hard to control, on the way back to the pits you MUST avoid getting in other cars way or creating debris on track i.e. hitting tyre barriers that could result in compromising another drivers race. If that means crawling along the grass for the best part of a lap then that is what you must do.
2.10 When exiting your pit box you must ensure you do not make contact with any car already travelling down the pit lane.


Edit added extract from CTRA rules which I guess are more relevant:

4.0 Blocking/Defending
You may move once per track segment (between two corners) to block an overtaking manoeuvre (defend position). Additionally, you may also return to your line after that manoeuvre. You may make no futher moves to block until the next track segment. If a driver has attained a measure of overlap (eg. you did not move far enough to successfully block, were tricked by a bluff/switch-back, etc), you may consider your blocking manoeuvre to have failed and must allow room for that car on the track.

[pine-fin]

It was FE1R and I passed in the shicane, and HELD left side of the road all the way in to the corner.

[xaotik]

'nice blocking btw'

It was probably meant as a negative - but blocking if done properly (and fairly) is part of good tactics and racecraft.

[sinbad]

4.0 Blocking/Defending
You may move once per track segment (between two corners) to block an overtaking manoeuvre (defend position). Additionally, you may also return to your line after that manoeuvre.

Don't understand this. The one-move rule explicitly means that you can zig, and zig a bit more if you like, but not zig-zag. Returning to the side of the track which you vacated to defend another side is two moves in anyone's book.

[cmckowen]

Blocking is such a negative word for it, i always write "Nice driving", or "Damn you and your fat ass!" :)

[Bean0]

The way I'm reading this, is that you had the inside and also had good overlap on the other driver. The line you took meant that you needed to slow to below what would be considered 'normal speed' for the chicane to get through without crashing. The driver on the outside would have been able to carry more speed on his line, but was prevented by the position of your car.

I'm pretty sure this is described as a 'block pass' and is perfectly fair in my eyes if the above is true.

[BigDave2967]

I had a look at it, and I would have done the same thing. I didn't find any problems with that at all, I'd be cursing for my own mistake that cost me that position :).

[Panda X]

I only block when I can hold off someone without wrecking them. Else I just let them pass.

[pine-fin]

I had a look at it, and I would have done the same thing. I didn't find any problems with that at all, I'd be cursing for my own mistake that cost me that position :).
I know I didnt drive against the rules, but is this blocking or defensive driving? Im confused about the terms and if I say 'I blocked you on purpose' (just like in the video, I drove on purpose on the left side so he couldnt pass on the inside) they will just ban or kick me and say "You cant block, its not allowed!"

[Viper93]

You did nothing wrong Pine-fin.

As long as the driver did not have any overlap you can defend like that.

If he was even a little bit up the side of you that would be considered blocking and isn't tolerated, but you only defended your position and were right to do so. The other driver should have let off to avoid contact.

Sam is looking at adjusting the regs so blocking and defending are differentiated.

[BigDave2967]

I know I didnt drive against the rules, but is this blocking or defensive driving? Im confused about the terms and if I say 'I blocked you on purpose' (just like in the video, I drove on purpose on the left side so he couldnt pass on the inside) they will just ban or kick me and say "You cant block, its not allowed!"

I'd say defensive driving. For me, blocking is when someone is deliberately weaving left and right on the track when you are trying to make a pass. Defending, is when you stick to your defending line, (staying on the inside line of a corner instead of your usual racing line would be an example) defending your position, making it difficult for the driver behind you to get past.

[xaotik]

Just saw your video - didn't notice the link before - it looks like a totally legit move to me. There was no actual direct blocking, it's not like you swerved out of your line on a straight or something - you just connected your normal line to a more defensive one. Makes sense.

[Simon Savage]

From a personal point of view, If someone is getting a run on me on the inside I will move across the track “slowly” to try and stop them coming through. If they have an overlap I might squeeze them a bit by moving to the middle of the track to try and pressure them to brake too late as long as there's space to do so without hitting them. However I must agree that zigzagging, moving across aggressively especially if the other driver is already along side is bad news. But it happens so rarely on LFS its not really something most should worry about. This argument about blocking will prob go on as long as racing cars are about.

[Mille Sabords]

I would call it a good move :)
Well done!

[pine-fin]

I would call it a good move :)
Well done! I know, the pass was so sexy, it was the last lap and all.. :D

[frokki]

Definitely defensive driving. I'd also understand blocking as defensive driving not by the rules.

[kurent]

2.4 When defending a pass from another driver you are only allowed to switch position across the track once. Swerving from one side of the track and back again will result in penalties.

Does that still count if you are trying to get the guy out of your draft? I have a move that works most of the time. You do a slight move to one side and immediatelly to the other side. The guy behind you trying to get a draft will go to the first side, but most of the time he will not expect a harder turn in the opposite side and he lost the draft. An attempt to correct will make him slower and loose a chance to draft. I guess that's allowed since you're not obstructing him? :shrug:

[lefty]

Does that still count if you are trying to get the guy out of your draft? I have a move that works most of the time. You do a slight move to one side and immediatelly to the other side. The guy behind you trying to get a draft will go to the first side, but most of the time he will not expect a harder turn in the opposite side and he lost the draft. An attempt to correct will make him slower and loose a chance to draft. I guess that's allowed since you're not obstructing him? :shrug:

So you are making sudden moves on front of a approaching car. Yeah that's a good idea.

[Polyracer]

So you are making sudden moves on front of a approaching car. Yeah that's a good idea.

I think he's making a perfectly acceptable move, - this is not the same as blocking a pass because he is preventing tha following car from getting a passing opportunity.

Once the pass is on though - you cannot swerve from side to side to prevent it.
You can occupy a line that makes it harder to overtake, even if it is not quite the racing line.

[lefty]

I think he's making a perfectly acceptable move, - this is not the same as blocking a pass because he is preventing tha following car from getting a passing opportunity.

Once the pass is on though - you cannot swerve from side to side to prevent it.
You can occupy a line that makes it harder to overtake, even if it is not quite the racing line.

How is swerving on a race track a good idea, ever?

Besides it makes the passing / racing near impossible for the car behind. Would you trust on someone in front of you making irratic movements left and right as you aproach him?

That's what it is all about, making yourself predictable. There might not be just one car behind you etc.

[mrodgers]

Defensive driving - choosing an "off" line to the racing line to prevent someone from getting on the inside to pass.

Blocking - deliberately moving across the track from the normal racing line to block an approaching vehicle preparing to pass.

In the defensive driving, you are not crossing the track, you are choosing a different line. Perfectly legitimate. With blocking, you are leaving the racing line to force an approaching car to slow down. The one move to block rule is pretty much the norm, and it is expected not to happen if the approaching car already has overlap, thus you must concede the line. Most rules state that you can move over to block either only once, or you can move over, then over more, then over more, but once you move back to the racing line, you can not move over to block again. Moving over to block, back to the line, then over to block a 2nd time is the swerving or zig-zag moving that is not allowed with most rulings.

The move shown here in the original post is perfectly legal and legitimate. That was defensive driving as he chose to hold the inside lane to prevent a passing attempt.

I like defensive driving. I don't like any type of blocking, even the "move once" rule. It's just too risky with computer sim racing as you can not see everywhere around your car. If there is any overlap, not just significant overlap, results in both cars crashed out.

[Polyracer]

How is swerving on a race track a good idea, ever?
Besides it makes the passing / racing near impossible for the car behind. Would you trust on someone in front of you making irratic movements left and right as you aproach him?
That's what it is all about, making yourself predictable. There might not be just one car behind you etc.

If you need to get benefit from the draft in order to get into an overtaking position, then you are not yet in a position where the car in fronts movement is dangerous.
Once you have managed to get close enough and are about to make the pass then the leading car should not move from side to side as this is obviously dangerous.
The leading car can place himself slightly offline though, to make the overtaking car go the long way round to make the pass.

I have seen hundreds of examples of this and no one complains of blocking.

[pine-fin]

I would really like to see some video of tintop racing, especially about blocking/defensive driving so we beginners can learn too. And also I would like to see this 'shake the drafter' by kurent :D

[kurent]

Exactly, I'm not obstructing him in any way and not forcing him to slow down. I'm just getting him out of my draft. And after those two moves everything is usually decided. Either he's out of draft still not having an overlap or he was fast enough to get draft again and then he's too close for me to do it again.

I was just wondering because I almost never have this move done on me altho I expect it every time hehe.

[Stigpt]

To pine-fin: Good piece of driving, you held your line, on the inside and very efficiently defended. The other driver could have overtaken you if he had gone wide, and did the normal line, but he insisted on trying for the inside and lost.

to kurent:
If you do that and the opponent is too close, what will happen is you shimmy left, he keeps his line, gets his nose side-by-side with your rear bumper, then when you return right, you slam into him. Zig-zagging is always a bad idea. What you CAN do is turn to the side he went to (trying to overtake), squeeze him hard. If hes got nothing on the side of you car, you can squeeze him all the way to the grass. THEN you can return to your line, for the next corner - but this is NOT turning back abruptly to your original line - its a more slow, predictable return. This is cause if you swerve left to block an overtaking manouvre, the opponent will, if he has time, turn back to the right side. If you then decide to return to the racing line quickly... bang.
As a general rule, if someone begins to overtake you on the beggining of a straight, dont bother to block - you wont be able to prevent it, and are risking a crash. Nearer a corner, though... you are preventing a side-by-side situation on the corner.
and never do that on the exit to a corner - most people will be coming of the corner as passengers, not drivers, so if you block the exit line, they cannot stop or swerve.

[Mille Sabords]

May I suggest getting on UF-BR CTRA server?
Some races on seemingly boring tracks for thess slow high grip "cars" turn into highly tactical fights involving racing lines and drafting when the server fills in (AS2, KY, BL) because of the overall low speed and close racing.
It is also easy to get track tuned setups from fellow racers.
I think it is a good learning / testing startpoint!

[J.B.]

The problem with all these lane change rules (that were introduced because of Michael Schumacher after Spa '95) is that they don't state when you are allowed to move across the track. This means that waiting until someone is already slightly overlapping and then forcing him to either back off or hit the wall/grass is perfectly legitimate and is routinely practiced in all forms of real racing.

I think it's BS but what choice do you have you can get away with it? If I could make a rule it would simply be that any maneuver that forces a driver to get off the throttle (or off the track) while not yet in the normal braking zone is illegal. Easy to check with onboard camera and data recording.

[kurent]

If you do that and the opponent is too close, what will happen is you shimmy left, he keeps his line, gets his nose side-by-side with your rear bumper, then when you return right, you slam into him.

I said that in my previous post, you probably missed. If he's too close it's already too late for anything. And the first move is not actually a move, the point is to make him think you are going to try and get away in one direction. Just a slight turn long enough for him to respond and try to follow you, then a harder turn in the opposite direction and most of the time he will keep on going in the first direction for that fatal few moments before realizing you have tricked him.

I tried to find a replay where I did it but couldn't find one. :schwitz:

[The Radness]

While it may be called "defending" your position. It really is "offensive" driving. You are being pro-active in keeping that position.

Defensive driving is being passive, letting people pass.

You may be a great "defender", you have to drive offensively in order to defend that position.


Did I just make myself look stupid there?


BTW, I thought your move was perfectly legit. The other guy should have just went outside on the last corner. Great pass!

[pine-fin]

Quick! Hit the edit button! :D

[[d9]]

that was not blocking here i think, but your incomming into chicane was on the edge of cutting IMO ;) nice fight!

[pine-fin]

;676657']your incomming into chicane was on the edge of cutting IMOWhat are you talking about? I had overlap BEFORE the turn-in point.

[The Radness]

The thing about racing is that is cant be driven in a matter-of-fact, "I-had-overlap-its-my-position" kind of way. If theres overlap, you still need to give room for the other car.

While your pass was clean, it was really close to(but not) cutting.

[pine-fin]

While your pass was clean, it was really close to(but not) cutting. If you call that close, then most of passes over me are cutting then :shrug:

[The Radness]

If you call that close, then most of passes over me are cutting then :shrug:

Your probably right:D. Chicanes are just a really hard spot to pass with both drivers leaving with that fresh feeling.

The other guy was just pissed because you knew what he was going to do and didn't let him do it. He SHOULD have went outside and tried to carry more speed out of the corner and tried to beat you down the straight.

Well, thats what I would have done.

[frokki]

If you are talking about corner cutting, that wasn't even close IMO. What I've understood (and seen it being the practise in leagues I've raced), the car is judged to be on track if at least two wheels are on the track, and kerbs are part of the track just like chalk lines are part of a football pitch. So pine-fin could have been at least 0,5m more over the apex. Instead the following car was closer to cutting the 2nd apex of the chicane.

[Mackie The Staggie]

Good move in my view:thumb:, in fact would even say that I would like too see more of this. Many a time I have seen mysef overtake someone who would not even attempt to defend there line, to bothered driving the perfect line and going for a fast lap.

Whenever I'm in that postion I'm defendin my postion right to the limit of the rules, never oversteping it on purpose, this style I found leads to more enjoyment for myself, and hopefully the other driver when they have to fight for there postion.

[[d9]]

What are you talking about? I had overlap BEFORE the turn-in point.

yes, braking 0.5s later makes overlap :)
i wanted only to say by that - for me was chicane part more disputed than other else in this movie...

[Mackie The Staggie]

;676706']yes, braking 0.5s later makes overlap :)
i wanted only to say by that - for me was chicane part more disputed than other else in this movie...

I can't see much wrong at with the chicane move, however the video is had 1/2 pace, so maybe at full pace it could be diffrent, but it looks a legal move to me, again poorly defended by the other driver. If it was me, I would have been in the centre of the track, reducing the amount of space avalible for the overtaking move.

[Dygear]

I like the F1 rules the best, you my defend your line once, and then retake your racing line again as per each turn. How ever if you defend your line twice in one straight, that is blocking. There is a very fine line and one that is crossed accidentally from time to time, just don't make it a habit.

[sinbad]

I like the F1 rules the best, you my defend your line once, and then retake your racing line again as per each turn. How ever if you defend your line twice in one straight, that is blocking. There is a very fine line and one that is crossed accidentally from time to time, just don't make it a habit.

You can only retake the line at the corner, not before it.

[pine-fin]

;676706']yes, braking 0.5s later makes overlap :)
Oh come on, I will send the .mpr and you will see that I had overlap before he even started braking.

[SamH]

I like the F1 rules the best, you my defend your line once, and then retake your racing line again as per each turn. How ever if you defend your line twice in one straight, that is blocking. There is a very fine line and one that is crossed accidentally from time to time, just don't make it a habit.
That's the essence of the CTRA rule. Defend by moving/blocking, and optionally return to your line, once. More than that and you're in breach of the rules.

I think I will spend a few minutes this evening to separate out "defending" and "blocking" in the CTRA rules. Moving to defend can either be moving to disrupt airflow or block passage. I hadn't realised the negative connotations to the word "blocking" when I phrased that rule.
Oh come on, I will send the .mpr and you will see that I had overlap before he even started braking.
On CTRA servers, overlap may be obtained within the braking zone, since our regulations specify that overlap is considered at the *normal turn-in point*. This can be significantly later than the normal braking point. :)

[lefty]

If you need to get benefit from the draft in order to get into an overtaking position, then you are not yet in a position where the car in fronts movement is dangerous.
Once you have managed to get close enough and are about to make the pass then the leading car should not move from side to side as this is obviously dangerous.
The leading car can place himself slightly offline though, to make the overtaking car go the long way round to make the pass.

I have seen hundreds of examples of this and no one complains of blocking.

It's not blocking, it's about being irrational on a race track. If you fail to see that, tough luck.

[frokki]

It's not blocking, it's about being irrational on a race track. If you fail to see that, tough luck.I think that on the straights you can be as irrational as you want (within that one move rule clarified above of course), if the car following you can still keep the throttle floored and doesn't have to take any responsive actions for that irrationality.

[pine-fin]

On CTRA servers, overlap may be obtained within the braking zone, since our regulations specify that overlap is considered at the *normal turn-in point*. This can be significantly later than the normal braking point. :)Either way I'm right. I had overlap before he braked, I had overlap before he turned in and I still have overlap when I go to bed :razz:

[Polyracer]

[It's not blocking, it's about being irrational on a race track. If you fail to see that, tough luck.

"I have seen hundreds of examples of this and no one complains of blocking."

I do it myself, and many others do it to me.

Its about denying the facility to overtake and no blocking is involved at all, and if you fail to see that..............

Personally I disagree with actual blocking too.

If an opponent has gotten close enough to attempt the pass then i do not switch line to block him, and if he is already there with some overlap - I give him space so that no accident is caused.

[lefty]

I think that on the straights you can be as irrational as you want (within that one move rule clarified above of course), if the car following you can still keep the throttle floored and doesn't have to take any responsive actions for that irrationality.

That's the reason it's happening all the time irl. Because it's ok to be irrational. Let me suggest you try it at a real race track with other cars.

[SamH]

Either way I'm right. I had overlap before he braked, I had overlap before he turned in and I still have overlap when I go to bed :razz:
Agreed :) As Viper93 already said, there was no foul. Your moves were legitimate :)
If an opponent has gotten close enough to attempt the pass then i do not switch line to block him, and if he is already there with some overlap - I give him space so that no accident is caused.
This is down to the individual. If someone wishes to aggressively defend, they may do so. Once the opponent has attained overlap, the driver in front has missed his opportunity to block the way, but if he hasn't already made a defensive move to prevent someone overtaking, he's within his rights to get in their way and force the guy behind to ease off.

Races are not just won by the fastest guy on the track. Sometimes they're also won by the "widest car" on the track. Some of the most entertaining racing I've seen on the CTRA has been from drivers who have an extraordinary ability to place their car exactly on the track where the guy behind wants to be. This is a skill that is no less to be celebrated in racing, IMO. :)

[Stefani24]

wasnt blocking, you didnt hit the brakes and you didnt drive zigzag infront of him, so it wasnt blocking.
nice pass btw

[Polyracer]

Races are not just won by the fastest guy on the track. Sometimes they're also won by the "widest car" on the track. Some of the most entertaining racing I've seen on the CTRA has been from drivers who have an extraordinary ability to place their car exactly on the track where the guy behind wants to be. This is a skill that is no less to be celebrated in racing, IMO. :)

Exactly :thumb:

[NSX_FReeDoM]

one block is totally fine.
then you have to maintain your position until the entry of the next corner then you can return to normal racing line..

[MoonForce]

Me and my poor brains

I raced on CTRA today, made a clean pass on last lap and defended position on last corner. After the race I get a comment 'nice blocking btw'. Now, I know the rules on defensive driving and I didnt drive against the rules, so I understood it as a negative comment and told him it was infact NOT blocking.

Later on, I read the rules section again on ctra and suprised to see blocking word in defensive driving part. Now, I don't know if the comment made meant GJ or FU :D If he meant the first one, I feel like a complete idiot for talking rubbish.

So did I get it wrong when I understand blocking as beeing a dirty bastard who drives against the rules and defensive driving as the correct term? Because.. I am sure as hell not the only one who has these words mixed up. I have seen many times the blocking word used as a negative comment on drivers.

Oh yes, I can see the upcoming misunderstanding in conversations;

racer:"You were blocking me!"
me:"Of course"
racer:"eh?"
..
..
pine-fin kicked

me:"goddamn it.."

Here you go. 3 angles; air-my view-his view (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_RUpD_Euk)

as long as you dont cross the track so he really would bump your rear you can make your ass wide ^^

i widen my (racer)ass also as much as i can and other racers love it although they are maybe 1 or 2 sec faster a lap, it just depends trickyness and skillz of my opponent ontrack, and i will leave him space if he is next to me and let him overtake surely fair.

it is cool to force the opponent racer to make a great overtaking move and surely it is for him/her when he/she passes me then , i am not an bastard u know ^^

keep it up dude

[atlantian]

HEY! since when is blocking someone and giving them a hard time to pass illigal?!?!?

I always swerve and make passing impossible for people and i force people to slow down ALL THE TIME.
and when i follow people i try to freak them out by following a line that is right next to them while tailgating.

this is totally legit.

[frokki]

That's the reason it's happening all the time irl. Because it's ok to be irrational. Let me suggest you try it at a real race track with other cars.Perhaps I'm missing what you are up to, but I don't think I'd never do that at a real race track, sir. Like I wouldn't do 80% of the defensive/attacking moves I do in this sim environment where people's health, money and working hours aren't on stake.

BTW, I love how the people here are praising their driving and moves :D

[The Radness]

HEY! since when is blocking someone and giving them a hard time to pass illigal?!?!?

I always swerve and make passing impossible for people and i force people to slow down ALL THE TIME.
and when i follow people i try to freak them out by following a line that is right next to them while tailgating.

this is totally legit.


good luck if/when you get S2....You can force the AI to slow down all you want after you're banned.

[lefty]

Perhaps I'm missing what you are up to, but I don't think I'd never do that at a real race track, sir. Like I wouldn't do 80% of the defensive/attacking moves I do in this sim environment where people's health, money and working hours aren't on stake.

BTW, I love how the people here are praising their driving and moves :D

I was getting about at why is it ok to make 'smart' moves like that in a sim when you wouldn't do those in real life. All it does is make the racing worse when you can't predict what the other drives will do. Will they try to race like in real life or pull some sudden smartypants moves out of their arse. It's about trusting the others to make it through corners and straights without stupid moves that allow door to door racing.

[Polyracer]

I was getting about at why is it ok to make 'smart' moves like that in a sim when you wouldn't do those in real life. All it does is make the racing worse when you can't predict what the other drives will do. Will they try to race like in real life or pull some sudden smartypants moves out of their arse. It's about trusting the others to make it through corners and straights without stupid moves that allow door to door racing.
I just don't get where you are coming from, I'm doing exactly what I think I should do or would do IRL, - thats doing what I can to win the race.
If you want to get past, then I'm going to make it as hard as I can for you, and if you are good enough you will do it - and feel good about it cos I did'nt make it easy.

If you are in my draft, that means you are not in a position to overtake, if we crash its your fault, if you get to the side of me then things start to change - depending on the situation.
I don't want to crash or cause others to crash, I want them to come back at me so I can learn and improve my skills.

As the overtaking car, it is your resposibility to get past in a clean safe way, moreso online because of our (slight) handicaps.

Its not my responsibility to make it easy for you.

[tonix]

Didn't read the whole thread, but from my perspective your move was perfectly legal. If he had been smart enough, he would take the ideal line on the right as soon as he saw you taking the defensive line, so he could get better exit speed and he could try to overtake you on the straight.

For the F1 rules about overtaking and blocking, check this video: http://www.worldcarfans.com/4071105.001/demonstrating-f1-overtaking-techniques
Very clearly illustrating what you can do and what not.

[sinbad]

For the F1 rules about overtaking and blocking, check this video: http://www.worldcarfans.com/4071105.001/demonstrating-f1-overtaking-techniques
Very clearly illustrating what you can do and what not.

Defines the one move rule nicely enough. No moving back! :)

Don't know who the hell approved those computer demonstrations though, they're just weird, especially the switch back one :)

[The Moose]

I always swerve and make passing impossible for people and i force people to slow down ALL THE TIME.
this is totally legit.


:scratchch
Maybe in you strange little world it is, but that shit ain't going to be tolerated on S2 servers, or anywhere in real racing.

I don't want the devs to loose any potential money, but please do us all a favour and stay a Demo racer.

[MyBoss]

To me it looks like he gives an compliment.
It was a block, but a legal one and a good one too.

[chanoman315]

i remember one race at CTRA, some of the CR guys, dont remember correctly, Moose or Dru, he blocked me as hell, i couldnt pass over the 5laps it was, and it was a freaking good race, and wont let me pass... i thought it was incorrect, since i was faster...

[pine-fin]

I think I will spend a few minutes this evening to separate out "defending" and "blocking" in the CTRA rules.OT; While youre at it, would be cool if you emphasized the part 'say sorry with actions, not words'. Im sick and tired of those casual sorry messages. If someone makes a mistake, atleast they should write it instead of spamming binds :(

[lefty]

I just don't get where you are coming from, I'm doing exactly what I think I should do or would do IRL, - thats doing what I can to win the race.
If you want to get past, then I'm going to make it as hard as I can for you, and if you are good enough you will do it - and feel good about it cos I did'nt make it easy.

If you are in my draft, that means you are not in a position to overtake, if we crash its your fault, if you get to the side of me then things start to change - depending on the situation.
I don't want to crash or cause others to crash, I want them to come back at me so I can learn and improve my skills.

As the overtaking car, it is your resposibility to get past in a clean safe way, moreso online because of our (slight) handicaps.

Its not my responsibility to make it easy for you.

I'm not whining about it making passing harder. Just saying random moves make it harder to race cleanly. Besides it's both sides who need to take responsibility to make the racing and passing safe.

I still encourage to try that in real life tho.

[Huru-aito]

I like brake testing.

[nihil]

I like brake testing.

Not really sportsmanlike....

Will they try to race like in real life or pull some sudden smartypants moves out of their arse. It's about trusting the others to make it through corners and straights without stupid moves that allow door to door racing.

Schwantz and Rainey at Hockenheim in 1991 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWaBm0sfPZA): for no other reason than Schwantz's (#34) move going into the stadium section defines the word "smartypants" and he defended it beautifully to finishing line.

[Albieg]

I don't see anything particularly bad in the video. The moves seem pretty legitimate to me, and the slight contact seems to be the outcome of a defensive move in the heat of a battle for position. I really can't see anyone who's at fault.

[sinbad]

Schwantz and Rainey at Hockenheim in 1991 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWaBm0sfPZA): for no other reason than Schwantz's (#34) move going into the stadium section defines the word "smartypants" and he defended it beautifully to finishing line.
Irrelevant to the discussion, just a random overtaking move. He isn't doing anything unpredictable or reckless at all. It's not even a questionable move.
Weaving around to break the tow is risky, you see it a bit irl but they're very very careful, you really don't want to have an accident on a straight at high speed. A lot of people take much greater risks on the straights between corners in LFS than they ever would in real life, which is understandable since nobody can get hurt. I'll give a little jink if someone is on the very edge of my slipstream, but as soon as they start to close in the one move rule takes effect and it's time to be sensible.

I don't think Huru likes brake testing really, he likes lamp, iirc.

[nihil]

Irrelevant to the discussion, ...

I know...

... for no other reason than ...





Lamp? Lamp testing? Me no understand...

[fujiwara]

nihil: maybe to see if the lights are working :D.

pine-fin: your move was good and fair, you have choosen a line and sticked to it, you gave the other player the chance to go outside and he/she didn't wanted, so not your problem, so in my opinion you did nothing wrong.

[MR_B]

Here you go. 3 angles; air-my view-his view (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_RUpD_Euk)


As an lfs race director for the crc back in its day, I would have seen nothing wrong with that.

[The Moose]

i remember one race at CTRA, some of the CR guys, dont remember correctly, Moose or Dru, he blocked me as hell, i couldnt pass over the 5laps it was, and it was a freaking good race, and wont let me pass...
Blocked you or drove defensively?

I stick to the one line change rule. If the guy behind exits a corner faster than me and looks like he has the speed to overtake i will immediately take the inside line to defend the next corner.
Personally i don't think I'm that good at defensive driving, as i usually get taken round the outside,or on the corner exit due to the attacker having a better line, if i defend for to many corners.

i thought it was incorrect, since i was faster...
As long as the defending is done legally(one line change,no swerving) then there's not a problem. I've been a couple of seconds a lap faster than the guy in front at times, but due to their quality defending i couldn't get past.

[ghost racer]

I didn't read anything but the orignal post...

Blocking is yes.. but once you've lost speed just to block no and swerve no..

Blocking is fine for me because they go off there race line to keep you from passing them.. If they try to serve you off the road I just let off alittle hold my line and let them tag the front of my car and spin out :shrug:

I just hate the people that feel the need they need to make a pass when ever the opportunity arises (if it goes right into your race line), it's more about time and racing lines.. If you really have the skill you would overtake them reguardless :scratchch

[ghost racer]

Blocked you or drove defensively?

I stick to the one line change rule. If the guy behind exits a corner faster than me and looks like he has the speed to overtake i will immediately take the inside line to defend the next corner.
Personally i don't think I'm that good at defensive driving, as i usually get taken round the outside,or on the corner exit due to the attacker having a better line, if i defend for to many corners.


As long as the defending is done legally(one line change,no swerving) then there's not a problem. I've been a couple of seconds a lap faster than the guy in front at times, but due to their quality defending i couldn't get past.

x2.. I like to let people pass when I race... gets all the people trying to push it too hard out of my way, ususally 60% I pass them on the side of the road later on.

[StableX]

HEY! since when is blocking someone and giving them a hard time to pass illigal?!?!?

I always swerve and make passing impossible for people and i force people to slow down ALL THE TIME.
and when i follow people i try to freak them out by following a line that is right next to them while tailgating.

this is totally legit.

It's not legit. It's ok to do it with friends, but even then friends can get the wrong idea....... so beware!

[The Moose]

It's not legit. It's ok to do it with friends, but even then friends can get the wrong idea....... so beware!

Are you ever going to let it lie? :scratchch ;)

It's fine to do it with friends...on your own server. :nod:

[StableX]

Are you ever going to let it lie? :scratchch ;)

It's fine to do it with friends...on your own server. :nod:

It's a fair comment and what I believe. I'm letting the person in question know what I think about it like everyone else from my experience and it's fair to do that.

[legoflamb]

Since when is defending corner entry a wrong act when racing?

[ghost racer]

Since when is defending corner entry a wrong act when racing?

Depends who has the correct line.. I'm all for it if they keep pushing there speed to it.. but most will try to slow you down themselves with their car when they reach the apex.

[sinbad]

Depends who has the correct line.. I'm all for it if they keep pushing there speed to it.. but most will try to slow you down themselves with their car when they reach the apex.

Perfectly okay to do that. You can (within reason) park at the apex and force the car you just outbraked to lift the throttle and lose the extra momentum they might be carrying through the corner. It's incredibly annoying to get tagged from behind by somebody trying to cutback when you've made it impossible for them to do it, but it's one of those where you get blamed because you're the "attacking" driver.

[legoflamb]

Depends who has the correct line.. I'm all for it if they keep pushing there speed to it.. but most will try to slow you down themselves with their car when they reach the apex.

Yeah, I seem to get that a lot, that being, getting squashed at the apex with full or major overlap.

Perfectly okay to do that. You can (within reason) park at the apex and force the car you just outbraked to lift the throttle and lose the extra momentum they might be carrying through the corner. It's incredibly annoying to get tagged from behind by somebody trying to cutback when you've made it impossible for them to do it, but it's one of those where you get blamed because you're the "attacking" driver.

I don't do that, or try my best not to do it, and when it happens to me I just don't make the pass.

[SamH]

OT; While youre at it, would be cool if you emphasized the part 'say sorry with actions, not words'. Im sick and tired of those casual sorry messages. If someone makes a mistake, atleast they should write it instead of spamming binds :(
I just uploaded a new version of the X-System that should help to sort this out :)

[edit] I can't remember if I posted this already.. I've been juggling a bit, this last couple of days. I changed the CTRA website's clarification on this matter:-
4.0 Defending Position
You may move once per track segment (between two corners) to prevent an overtaking manoeuvre (defend position). Additionally, you may also return to your line after that manoeuvre. You may make no futher moves to obstruct until the next track segment. If a driver has attained any measure of overlap (eg. you did not move far enough to successfully defend, were tricked by a bluff/switch-back, etc), you may consider your defensive manoeuvre to have failed and must allow room for that car on the track.

[ghost racer]

Perfectly okay to do that. You can (within reason) park at the apex and force the car you just outbraked to lift the throttle and lose the extra momentum they might be carrying through the corner. It's incredibly annoying to get tagged from behind by somebody trying to cutback when you've made it impossible for them to do it, but it's one of those where you get blamed because you're the "attacking" driver.

Everytime I attempt that (and I go about it nicely).. I would say 68% of the time I'm off the track because of it. So I just race passively and try to have fun now.. I can't get too serious because I can't throw my first up and angerment and have them see it :D

I do understand what your saying.. if your like in a apex of a hairpin :nod: If it's clean I'm fine.. if it's reckless It's annoying

[dmwright]

Hmmm, I taught you were allowed one move to defend someone?

[mathew4445]

OT; While youre at it, would be cool if you emphasized the part 'say sorry with actions, not words'. Im sick and tired of those casual sorry messages. If someone makes a mistake, atleast they should write it instead of spamming binds :(

Oh my god! I feel exactly the same way! I ALWAYS type Sorry instead of pressing a bind and continuing on my way, Its just unfair if you press a bind, You dont lose anything by doing it.

People who do that should be shot, (I always kick them from the server if they do it more then once (Ban on the 3rd time))

[sinbad]

Hmmm, I taught you were allowed one move to defend someone?

Who has said something other than that? If you're responding to something one person has said you should quote them.

I don't think the CTRA rule explanation is very good. Returning to the side you moved from to continue to block/defend is a second move, and that's not really allowed.

[The Radness]

In something as dynamic as racing, its almost impossible to put definate rules as far as passing/ blocking goes. There is NO sure fire 100% way of determining it. Its not a math problem, there is no one answer to it.

It's not that hard, don't drive like an idiot, use your mirrors, show respect to your fellow drivers.

If you need a "Rule Book" to tell you how many "moves" you can make, or how much overlap counts "proper overlap" then you should press SHIFT+S, watch, and learn.

[mrodgers]

Oh yes, I can see the upcoming misunderstanding in conversations;

racer:"You were blocking me!"
me:"Of course"
racer:"eh?"
..
..
pine-fin kicked

me:"goddamn it.."

Here you go. 3 angles; air-my view-his view (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_RUpD_Euk)
Oh, and for clairification on this just in case there were any thoughts on this. CTRA servers have autokick on swearing and spamming chat. If you had sworn or the ".." you post there was multiple chats by you, that was probably the reason for the kick. CTRA admins wouldn't kick you from the server over this if there were any present and the public can not kick you at all.

I just noticed this and wanted to comment.

[legoflamb]

Oh, and for clairification on this just in case there were any thoughts on this. CTRA servers have autokick on swearing and spamming chat. If you had sworn or the ".." you post there was multiple chats by you, that was probably the reason for the kick. CTRA admins wouldn't kick you from the server over this if there were any present and the public can not kick you at all.

I just noticed this and wanted to comment.

Yeah I talked to the sarcastic one and and he know pine-fin did not get kicked.

Sarcasm is just a part of life, when it happens just laugh.

laugh
^ why gh?

[xaotik]

laugh
^ why gh?

Extra points in Scrabble.

[frokki]

Because othewise it would sound too German.
Schi laufen zu meine hause.

[legoflamb]

Extra points in Scrabble.

Good point!:D

[chanoman315]

Blocked you or drove defensively?
both :razz:
I stick to the one line change rule. If the guy behind exits a corner faster than me and looks like he has the speed to overtake i will immediately take the inside line to defend the next corner.
Personally i don't think I'm that good at defensive driving, as i usually get taken round the outside,or on the corner exit due to the attacker having a better line, if i defend for to many corners.
if it was you i think that yes...

As long as the defending is done legally(one line change,no swerving) then there's not a problem. .
i know... but what i said "i thought" ... but after the race i realized that no... it was a good race.. very intensive

[pine-fin]

CTRA admins wouldn't kick you from the server over this if there were any present and the public can not kick you at all.I kinda meant if the conversation would be on a random server.. :) The auto-swearing filter is too tough. It kicked me once for calling a driver bastard (or other really tame word) in a humorous intention.

[zeugnimod]

For you, it may be a tame word.

For others, it may be a very bad insult.

[RudiTurbo]

I dont know what people have been talking about here for several pages, but I looked at the vid and it was great defending after a pass, everything was fine ;)

[Hockquan]

Because othewise it would sound too German.
Schi laufen zu meine hause.

OT but interesting (IMO).

Funnily enough, as far as I'm aware, the GH digraph (a digraph is a pair of characters that are pronounced together as one sound) came to English from the Germanic CH sound. I'm no expert on the subject and I'd have to search to find references to back that up but I'd rather not (sorry!).

English is a funny old language and it has changed a hell of a lot over the years. This has resulted in some rather odd spellings, grammar and...erm...an odd language in general. I love it but I'm English so I'm biased! :)

I think George Bernard Shaw wrote some stuff about messed up English spelling. He decided that you could, in theory, spell the word fish as GHOTI. Using the sound of GH from lauGH, the O from wOmen and the TI from moTIon or any other -tion type word.

I recommend you keep spelling if fish though.

I'll stop being really off topic now.

[anttt69]

Nothing wrong with that mr pine fin. You are entitled to defend your position & you were clearly ahead of the other car. Thats racing, you did good :thumbsup:

[schwantz34]

Not really sportsmanlike....



Schwantz and Rainey at Hockenheim in 1991 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWaBm0sfPZA): for no other reason than Schwantz's (#34) move going into the stadium section defines the word "smartypants" and he defended it beautifully to finishing line.


good old schwantz:D:thumb:

[AndRand]

now I understand if ppl cant stand defensive driving in race (according to racing rules you can choose your line before the turn, ONCE) they dont get the blue flag meaning ("Don't block" - not "let pass")

[Lukaas]

Good pass, he ran wide you took advantage, its a win, legit, the other guy should quit whining and work out his technique...