Diesel in Le Mans

[ColeusRattus]

Have not had time to do muchh researches, but Audi seems to have an ambitious project for Le Mans 2006: their new R10 will race on a V12 Diesel Engine with 650 HP... No links though, as my source was in german, and not useful to most in here (and it is said hat google might find one or two results on it).

[Thorvertonian]

There was a diesel car that ran last year

[Bob Smith]

Somebody ran a bio-ethanol powered car last time I went (2004).

[axus]

:Looking_a :pillepall :schwitz:
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

If they do anything decent diesel lovers will go crazy and then we will be doomed.

[ColeusRattus]

There was a diesel car that ran last year
IIRC that car did not run on ordinary diesel... whereas the R10 is said to operate on conventional diesel. I doubt that, but I guess the fuel it uses would also work with normal diesel engines.

But who is going to pick up grime-bricks droppin out of the exhaust? :D

And I do drive a diesel IRL, as it has less consumtion and the prices are lower too. So diesel is the cheapest way to go places, if you still stick to combustion engines :D

[no_one]

Here are some more details on the car:

http://www.audi.com/audi/com/en1/ex...rsport/r10.html (http://www.audi.com/audi/com/en1/experience/motorsport/r10.html)

[Warper]

Nice development, BUT:

The main advantage of a diesel car should be the better fuel economy, but audi already admitted that this advantage is nonsense in le mans. Why? Because diesels fuel needs are approximatly the same like non-diesel fuel needs at full throttle. And le mans is a 70% full throttle track. So, target failed :)

Also interesting is that audi is talking about lug in technic, but they do have commonrail diesels only since a really short time ;)

Greetz
Warper

[ajp71]

I dobut it will be real pump diesel, sounds like a PR stunt to me, a highly strung racing engine will be so different from a road engine any economy gain will be lost and there will no dobut be a load of trick electrics to solve the usual throttle response issues with a diesel

[speedfreak227]

I dobut it will be real pump diesel, sounds like a PR stunt to me, a highly strung racing engine will be so different from a road engine any economy gain will be lost and there will no dobut be a load of trick electrics to solve the usual throttle response issues with a diesel

sorry to be off topic, but WHAT IS THAT GUY DOING BEHIND THE CAR in your avatar?

pushing?
tying his shoe?
is it you?

speedfreak227

[ajp71]

Refueling it :D

Found it on a site with photos of the Nurburgring 24 Hour race, will try and find the link

EDIT: found it http://www.nj-ratingen.de/fanfoto2.htm

[axus]

Engine is made of aluminum...?

When last I checked, diesels had to be steel, which is why they are so heavy. How did they pull that one off?

[M.Mos]

I dobut it will be real pump diesel, sounds like a PR stunt to me, a highly strung racing engine will be so different from a road engine any economy gain will be lost and there will no dobut be a load of trick electrics to solve the usual throttle response issues with a dieselSure a race diesel will be so different from a road engine, but it's the same for every racing otto engine. Ricardo showed their diesel 'concept study' based on a V10 judd reduced to 4.6 Liter. Ricardo's prediction for this engine is 637PS@5500rpm, 850Nm@4000rpm , 10% less fuel consumption under full load , 20% less fuel in the Range of 80% max.Rev, 165kg weight.

But your right they have a lot of work to do. Not becouse of the throttle response but the engines are not allowed to produce any visible smoke. Then they have to make the engine lighter, if they would just modify a usal diesel engine it would be to havy and would have too much torque killing every gearbox. Taurus Sport tried a modifyed 5L v10 VW Tuareg engine and failed miserabel. Just the engine weighed about 290kg which is nearly 1/3 of the 900kg limit. And even with reduced torque the clutch or gearbox failed alternating.

Will a Diesel win in LeMans? experts say yes! Because diesels are overreached by the regulations. The are allowed to use the same air restrictor size and are allowed to carry the same amount of fuel.
But Audi probably won't show 'everything' 2006 , because pegeaut planned a diesel for 2007.


Somebody ran a bio-ethanol powered car last time I went (2004). Guess it was Nasamax (http://www.nasamax.com/) .

[Nick_ll]

They most certainly know it will provide them no fuel economy over opponents if it's the case. How about they went ahead with the diesel idea because if they do the rules allow them to use a 5.5 litre engine WITH turbo and then have over 1100Nm of torque? That's over 810lb-ft.
I thought that previously you were either allowed a 6 liter NA or a 4 litre turbo engine. Then maybe with diesel you can be allowed a high displacement with turbo?

[tristancliffe]

At Full load a diesel is LESS efficient than a petrol engine, and the calorific value of diesel is LOWER than gasoline. These two things combined mean that at full load it should have worse fuel consumption.

Obviously road cars are very rarely at full load, unless you are a maniac. But even a committed maniac will spend more than 90% of his time on the road at part load, which is where diesels win (less pumping losses mainly, but also other things like less in cylinder heat rejection).

However, 810ftlb of torque is NOT to be sniffed at (assuming they can actually use it - in lower gears the cars will be traction limited, and so extra torque will not provide much benefit. If anything it'll just eat the tyres more unless they have very smooth gentle drivers.

[Nick_ll]

I guess they won't use it in low gears. In fact they probably can't use that much torque in low gears. I'd take a guess they tuned the thing so the turbo gives that torque in higher revs, so to avoid spinning the wheels too much the drivers would just have to shift up a bit earlier. That said, isn't TC allowed by the ACO?

Anyways, wether you want it or not, it's Audi, so unless someone else has already decided to go to LeMans in 2006 but keeps it secret (but it's not very likely, they are all stuck in F1 right now, which sucks), they will most definitely win the 24 hours, and probably the 12 hours of Sebring too if they take part.

[Hyperactive]

And I do drive a diesel IRL, as it has less consumtion and the prices are lower too. So diesel is the cheapest way to go places, if you still stick to combustion engines :D

Actually in Finland diesels cost more and the benefit of "it consumes less" is taken out by "usage tax", which is, I guess around 500€ (Toyota RAV4 2l diesel) per year... So we drive real cars in Finland :)

[M.Mos]

calorific value of diesel is LOWER than gasoline LOL Fuel Tanks are limited by 90Liters not xx KG. Gasoline HAS approximately 15% less energy per unit of volume then diesel. Gasoline IS approximately 15% lighter then Diesel per unit of volume.

[DodgeRacer]

This is the real deal guys, a few years ago a team ran a deisel in the 24 hour and it suprised a lot of people. This is audi, the creators of what could go down in history as one of the greatest race cars of all time, they know what they are doing ;)

http://car.kak.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=4888 for more info and pictures :)

[ajp71]

This is the real deal guys, a few years ago a team ran a deisel in the 24 hour and it suprised a lot of people. This is audi, the creators of what could go down in history as one of the greatest race cars of all time, they know what they are doing ;)


They are the only works team, there's no credible opposition to whatever PR stunt they choose to pull off next

[M.Mos]

That said, isn't TC allowed by the ACO? "A traction control system operating exclusively on the engine is authorised." 2006 LMP-1/2 Regulations (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/2006LMP12.pdf)

[DodgeRacer]

They are the only works team, there's no credible opposition to whatever PR stunt they choose to pull off next
Huh? I think there is some kind of misunderstanding, this is not a PR stunt, they have been planing this for years now, they obviously think it is going to be faster, and the car has been on the track testing with this motor for over two years now, TWO YEARS, thats a lot of money and time to put into a "publicity stunt"


Drop the tabloids and pick up a racer magazine ;)

[Nick_ll]

So they will use TC and will have no problem whatsoever with their insane torque (compared to the weight of the car). This thing will win LeMans.
Now hoping for the time the manufacturers will go back to LeMans and ALMS will get a better coverage on TV here. :)

[Z0iC]

If you watched the presentation video available at audi's website, in the press conference they said they will possibly see an advantage of 2, or mayby even 3 laps more for a fuel run compared to gasoline cars.:thumb:

[Racer Y]

Huh? I think there is some kind of misunderstanding, this is not a PR stunt, they have been planing this for years now, they obviously think it is going to be faster, and the car has been on the track testing with this motor for over two years now, TWO YEARS, thats a lot of money and time to put into a "publicity stunt"


Drop the tabloids and pick up a racer magazine ;)

Uh actually it IS a publicity stunt... the amount of money is actually chump change for the publicity they're intending to generate. It's a fraction of what they would spend for a 30 second spot during the superbowl. But that doesn't mean that they spent that time & effort to just have the car look dismal in performance. I'm pretty sure they have a serious racer in that car.
I don't see how they are going to use an aluminum block either, unless its coated with that high tech ceramic stuff
And what is Bi-turbo? does it mean it goes both ways (i meant uses gas or diesel) or is that just another name for twin turbo?

Anyways, the thought of a diesel powered race car sounds cool. Hopefully it will do good. :)

[Nick_ll]

Bi-turbo is indeed another name for twin-turbo.

[Warper]

Bi-turbo is indeed another name for twin-turbo.

Nope, it isn't.

Bi-Turbo: Two turbos, working together - if you have 4 cylinders - one turbo fills only 2 cylinders. So you can take two smaller turbos instead of using one which is bigger. The advantage is the seize, a smaller tubo is able to react faster, so you have a smaller "turbo hole" (i don't know if thats the right translation.

Twin-Turbo: You have also two turbos, but a small one for low revs, which reacts really fast and a big one for higher revs which has more boost instead of reacting fast.


Greets,
Warper

[ajp71]

Huh? I think there is some kind of misunderstanding, this is not a PR stunt, they have been planing this for years now, they obviously think it is going to be faster, and the car has been on the track testing with this motor for over two years now, TWO YEARS, thats a lot of money and time to put into a "publicity stunt"


It is a PR stunt because with a similar budget they, or any other works team could produce a faster petrol car with no real disadvantages.

Audi has been choosing what wins Le Mans ever since it launched the R8, it's never lost it since the launch of the R8, and ffs the Bentley was an Audi PR stunt, atm the R8s are semi-works cars based on a 2 or 3 year old chassis and there is currentley no opposition from other cars. If Audi would allow fully independant customer teams and we'd see some great RACING like under the Porsche 956/962s.

[Nitemare]

of course it's a PR stunt, they just want to sell more diesels, especially in USA
...another few years of dominance in LeMans with same FSI engine won't give them as much in terms of publicity, as thay had before...

but i heard some rumours that audi is developing another car with conventional FSI twin-turbo V8 as a backup, in case the diesel car will not perform as expected...

[Nick_ll]

Errr.....it's not a PR stunt. Of course it looks like it because it's true that they of course want to sell more diesels. However, the ACO regulations give an advantage to vehicles powered by "other" fuels (diesel, bio-ethanol).

[ajp71]

Errr.....it's not a PR stunt. Of course it looks like it because it's true that they of course want to sell more diesels. However, the ACO regulations give an advantage to vehicles powered by "other" fuels (diesel, bio-ethanol).

Is there any competition in Le Mans? No

Are the other prototypes going to get faster or even finish? No

Could the R8 win again at Le Mans? Yes

Will people be impressed by an R8 winning again? No

Do the ACO want to encourage diesels? Yes

Do Audi want to sell more diesels? Yes

Is it a PR stunt? Yes

[Nitemare]

Errr.....it's not a PR stunt. Of course it looks like it because it's true that they of course want to sell more diesels. However, the ACO regulations give an advantage to vehicles powered by "other" fuels (diesel, bio-ethanol).the advantage is a larger restrictor and engine capacity - 5.5 l for tdi, 5.0 for petrol n/a, but without it the diesel won't be competitive at all, because it is always heavier than petrol engine with similar power...

first audi had problems to get r10 under minimum weight (solved now, as ACO increased minimum weight for all cars by 25 kg)
then there are wider front wheels which are needed because of engine's weight - that reduces aero efficiency
and the torque, the biggest advantage of diesels, has to be electronically limited in lower gears, otherwise gearbox will fall to pieces...

so the advantage of diesel isn't so big as it may seem...

yes, R10 is a great achivement of engineering, and i'm glad that a car like this exists, but the reason why diesel r10 was created is not as noble, as audi marketing people want you to believe...