This is not just a suggestion [Archive]

Speed Soro

11th December 2005, 16:26

So, don't change this thread to other section, please.

It's an alert, if you want to call it so.

Scawen my far far away friend, you are just losing space in the market.

We need some news, not news like progress report, but real new game's things, and we hope those can't be so hard to implement.

We are about to receive NK Pro, and just finish to get GT Legends...

GTL has no bugs in physics, is based on real cars and real tracks, and have so many more appeals that is becoming hard to keep playing LFS.

Scawen, Victor and Erick, my dears, why don't you open your code to helpmates around the world? I'm sure they'll help you with many things that surely take big chunks of time and you could concentrate yourselves in that is most important, that is, gain market.

We need to resolve the grip issue, and we need to resolve the downforce issue, and the countersteer. We need new tracks, and perhaps could have night races and rainy races...

We need more sounds effects, like broken glasses, body noises, and perhaps better knock sounds...

And this game is not so hardcore as it should be, considering its purpose, to be a simulator, cause, as an example, you can downshift from 6a to 3a without broke the engine.

We need news. And I know, or maybe I judge to know, that you've got a rest, but now is time to back to work, cause the concurrency is working hard.

I'm not here to say what you must to do. I just don't want to see this marvelous idea going down. One thing you won't tell, is that the customers don't warned you...

Lautsprecher[NOR]

11th December 2005, 16:31

**** off!

AndroidXP

11th December 2005, 16:38

They don't need to do anything, and they owe us nothing. It's their decision when and what to do and seriously I don't see where "we're losing space"?

If you feel any temptation by GTL or any other ISI engine product then you surely don't get the spirit of LFS, and personally these games don't bother me at all, because they don't even come close physics wise. Sure, there may be some minor bugs in LFS physics which mostly don't affect handling at racing speeds, yet people scream all over the place how horrible and flawed the physics are. The only thing remotely influencing the current racing is the simple aero model, but this has been discussed to death already so I will shut up about it.

Further, I really look forward to the release of nkPro so we can finally test what all this hype is about and if it holds what it promises. From this point, nkPro looks like it's the only title which could remotely be a competition to LFS. I can still remember all that panic that arose about "OMG will rFactor be the end of LFS?". Ha, I say, what a miserable attempt it turned out to be.

Seriously, again, I don't see where all your angst about LFS comes from. Right now I see nothing that could really "endanger" LFS.

Though I have to agree that the lack of updates and devtalk is sometimes a bit frustrating, but probably because we're so used to it during the testpatch-season. Get used to it, they're also only humans.

E: And Lautsprecher, that's really not the right way to reply to such a topic. Grow up.

the_angry_angel

11th December 2005, 16:39

GTL has no bugs in physics, is based on real cars and real tracks, and have so many more appeals that is becoming hard to keep playing LFS.Surely thats a matter of opinion? I'd still rather play LFS than nK, GTL, GTR, etc.

Scawen, Victor and Erick, my dears, why don't you open your code to helpmates around the world? I'm sure they'll help you with many things that surely take big chunks of time and you could concentrate yourselves in that is most important, that is, gain market.Nice idea, large OpenSource projects do work, but only when theres more than 1 programmer behind it - LFS is not a small code base, and there is no way on earth we could get into it without some massive massive documentation or direct help from Scawen - by which time they've lost the LFS market completely. Have you ever tried diving into the OpenOffice code? Its about the equivilent difficulty (theres only about 3 people who actually understand how it all fits together), I think you'll find. Both projects are massive.

We need to resolve the grip issue, and we need to resolve the downforce issue, and the countersteer. We need new tracks, and perhaps could have night races and rainy races...

We need more sounds effects, like broken glasses, body noises, and perhaps better knock sounds...Knowing the LFS team, we will do. Eventually. Surely we could live without for now.

And this game is not so hardcore as it should be, considering its purpose, to be a simulator, cause, as an example, you can downshift from 6a to 3a without broke the engine.It takes time to make things perfect. Remember, LFS is more of an indy project than something rolled out by EA/Lionhead/etc..

I'm not here to say what you must to do. I just don't want to see this marvelous idea going down. One thing you won't tell, is that the customers don't warned you...Well, that will remain to be seen.

Nice suggestion, but I think we already know what the answers will be :tilt:

sil3ntwar

11th December 2005, 16:52

open source would never work and its a stupid idea.

detail

11th December 2005, 17:05

Autohr, drink sum poizun!

AndroidXP

11th December 2005, 17:09

Sounds more like you drunk too much absinth :rolleyes:

keiran

11th December 2005, 17:16

Live for Speed is an on going project where the devs seem to wont to make it perfect. They have shown their dedication to this project with all the work they have put in over the years and it already kicks any racing game where it hurts. ISI just throw out a new F1C with different cars and never seem to improve there net code. You got to remember LFS is continuing to develop where as all the games you listed will stand still now and leave the work to modders. Without modders the games you listed wouldn't even sell.

I think the LFS devs are going in the right direction and their dedication is just amazing. If you consider ISI there probaly off onto some other project and rFactor will just be a distant memory to them.

Remember too many cooks spoil the meal ;)

Keiran

Blues

11th December 2005, 17:41

Scawen my far far away friend, you are just losing space in the market.
No, he doesn't!

I am 100% sure that the LFS-devs knowing what they are doing, and I am 100% sure we will get news sooner or later, so please, just relax...or go away...and play GTL if you prefer that game!

LFS is still the best racing simulator out here...and LFS is not finished.

So...instead screaming that the devs are gonna post some news, just relax...and everything will be fine :D

KiDCoDEa

11th December 2005, 18:00

jscorrea

11th December 2005, 18:04

...
LFS is still the best racing simulator out here...and LFS is not finished...

Will it be what a day is the Live for Speed it will be finished?

Will not it be something too great for 3 simple men?

When it is finished will not be very old regarding the commercial simulators?

I would like very that everything stayed well.

OPK

11th December 2005, 18:15

GTL has no bugs in physics

lol :)
The steering has no feedback of grip, great...

If it had perfect physics I´d play GTL all the time, I can tell you :P
RBR is much better in this case.

But I miss some news about the development too. :tilt:

JJ72

11th December 2005, 18:15

Is that a love letter? Too early for valentine? :D

tehSnaile

11th December 2005, 18:20

Unless all three developers die at the same time I'm pretty sure It'll all work out just fine. Altough I don't mind introducing one more dedicated coder to the project. :nod:
When traveling, please use separate cars, different airplanes and for gods sake, watch out for wreckers! :schwitz:

SparkyDave

11th December 2005, 18:32

Some people have no patients and seem to expect things far too quickly .
Good things come to those who wait , and really good things take time to perfect this is why we are not at S2 full yet , and as it is LFS is totally playable and will get updates and patches when they come .

I wonder if posts like the OP's above make the devs just feel pressured ? I hope not ;)

SD.

ajp71

11th December 2005, 18:39

GTL poses very little threat to LFS, rFactor maybe a bit more, NK Pro *could* wipe LFS out, but it won't IMO, GPL has survived since 1998 and still has one of the most active communities, LFS isn't an all time great yet, but to become the second imortal sim it will have to learn to cope with new sims coming along without having to add a load of new content each time.

I personally think LFS is fine as it is, it's not going to be wiped off the map by NK Pro as it still have the market of keyboarders/drifters that NK won't support, likewise LFS won't get rid of the ISI racers because they won't give LFS a fair chance just because of a few ricers in the LFS community.

axus

11th December 2005, 18:52

LFS is too far into its development to change the way they do things now. A new dedicated coder would be nice but it would slow things down initially in any case, even if in the long term it is better. Physics updates are coming - that is what Scawen said. With the next incompatible patch, some of Eric's work will come too, I'm sure. LFSWorld is so innovative already and almost perfect, providing so much information about everything that nothing can touch it. A lot of Eric and Victor's work goes unnoticed. When was the last time you burried yourself into LFSWorld? It is full of so much useful information - honestly, brilliant. I can't see any game coming soon with a system simmilar to LFSWorld. Eric's work is amazing - the tracks are great. There is a great track for ever car and a great car for every track (and not just one). Scawen's work has seemed to be dropping off of late, because we have seen nothing that really affects us since June (most of us anyway). The dev's took a much deserved break and now they are back working full time. Scawen's recent language work went unnoticed by many because it doesn't really affect them, but it is great that LFS is now available to a much greater audience. Now that Scawen's full time focus is again on things that are going to be affecting us, we will see the pace pick up again and there will be lots of improvements. I for one can't wait for the next set of patches because I think they will totally blow everyone's mind with the physics becoming as close to reality as you can expect it to be. :thumb: I say, keep up the great work, Scawen, Eric and Victor.

Eldanor

11th December 2005, 18:55

These are only my general thoughs about LFS.

I agree that LFS is their game, and they will develop it the way they want.

Said that, I think the LFS project could be too big for only one coder and one graphic artist. It's not about talent, it's about size. I think the potential of LFS is unquestionable, and the collaboration with the community makes LFS a special game, but every single bug or glitch that shows up is a bottle neck for the developing work.

I'm sure the dev team has their own reasons for not hiring anyone to help, and I hope they are good reasons. Maybe they surprise us with something unexpected for the final version.

I wonder what Eric has been doing these days? :) a hint would be very appreciated.

Keep the good work guys :)

@axus: ooops, very similar posts :) I was writing it while you posted

I agree with you that a lot of work goes unnoticed, but I don't think a new coder would slow things, and there are areas like AI or sound where a dedicated coder could give a big push to LFS.

Speed Soro

11th December 2005, 20:42

I respect the opinion from everybody here.

You all are people who think, like me, and you all, being humans, are able to be under passion when argue.

If you all look avatar, will see that I belong to one of the most important LFS race team from Brazil.

You can also see that I'm S2 licensed.

So, I'm not that kind of people who come here to freely attack the work, without basis, without knowing.

I have played S2 since the leaked demo, but I bought it months before, cause I believed in the purpose since the first time I downloaded the game and played the demo. And that was S1 age...

But we are finishing an atypical year: a lot of new good simulators.

You can tell anything you want, but you can't say that SINBIM and ISI has made a bad work. gMotor2 is a really good new code. rFactor is not so good, but its engine is. And you can't say different just because you admire LFS. And in GTL, SINBIM has made a excellent work, giving us no just a real racing enviroment, but a real-good-free-of-bugs car physics.

I'm a LFS fan. I know how many battles I have fight in foruns defending this work.

But I'm not blinded for its. consider the LFS tyre physics the most advanced until now, but, apart from that, what more advantages has LFS over its concurrents?

Ok, I know, and I use these in my fights: great comunity, lfs world, simple and direct menu, perfect netcode.

But that isn't all we expect.

I'm not here asking them to finish the game. I hope this game never be finished.

I'm just asking for news, and as I said, no progress reports, but new things.

Simple things, a new car, a new track variation, or new textures simulating night, grip bugs resolved, and so on...

I'm not here to kiss the feet of the team. I'm not here for LFS.

I look forward a good simulator, or various of them, and the market are waking up...

Scawen and comrades, I know you are reading this. Don't get me wrong.

I consider that is positive to say what I have thought, and this can be useful someday...

mrbogeyman

11th December 2005, 20:42

OK BOSS! WILL DO!

im glad you restrained yourself :D :x

Speed Soro, you have valid points.

But, the LFS devs have already decided how they are going to make this game for their own reasons. Somehow i dont think you will be persuading them otherwise.

deggis

11th December 2005, 21:05

GTL has no bugs in physics
Probably doesn't have, but it just lacks in many things what comes to physics.

luzik

11th December 2005, 21:09

I am big opensource fan but:
1. Scawen, Eric and Victor must eat, as far as i know they life from LFS, and with opensource and whatever licence you will be very dificult to keep promise that they will get same money as now.
2. I even can't imagin how to control such big project, how to control best quality of new tracks/cars ...and prevent from forks (this is vary bad for comunity)

But this idea is worth of reflection.
Maybe Dev's should think about additionaly programmer, a help for Scawen for doing that boring and timeeat jobs to accelerate adding new features.

afastest

11th December 2005, 21:10

Ok, there are several somehow, maybe remotely, maybe in some way :shy: , valid points, but... eeerh, there is something abo... :shy: well, i couldn't read the first post to the end. :Looking_a

Bob Smith

11th December 2005, 21:20

I'm don't think open source is the way, for instance the OpenTTD project seems quite disorganised at times (but then I don't think they are intending to sell that, so it's not like people are working on it as their job).
Personally I don't think another coder would hurt, but that has nothing to do with me, it's the devs' decision, if Scawen thinks progress is going fine, there's little you can do to change his mind. Progress might be slow, but progress is good, and that's most important (plus the patches have a very personal touch).

XCNuse

11th December 2005, 21:43

GTL has no bugs in physics, is based on real cars and real tracks, and have so many more appeals that is becoming hard to keep playing LFS.
yes.. and thats it.. GTL is based on real physics from real tracks
in somewhat similar conditions.. thats it; LFS is overal physics in all conditions .. not even based off of real ones; thats why GTL may seem real, but if you put an autocross on GTL it would handle in the weirdest fassion

Vykos69

11th December 2005, 22:12

Scawen, Victor and Erick, (...) you could concentrate yourselves in that is most important, that is, gain market.

HAHAHAHAHA, rofl... yeah sure, cause that is what they aim at. Market. Make money. That's their main purpose of LFS.... If it was, they would have stopped development by now, cause they got some nice bunch of money through S2-licences sold. All the fuzz about nkPro (with a yet untested MP), all the ISI sh1t is fun. There were other Sims coming to market last year, and year b4 that, and in contrary to every other sim, LFS gained people. always. constant.
I do understand some of your points, and I'd vote for some additional coder maybe for GFX-engine departement, but the way you post it is kind of ridiculous, cause the Devs owe you nothing except a Full S2 Version SOME day.

Tweaker

11th December 2005, 22:15

When reading this, a quote comes to mind:

LFS is not a democracy! :)

Like Paul says, we can only show you things when we have them, and we don't show all we have, and we don't reveal all our plans...

Hehe thanks guys :)

Yes i must admit it's not a democracy, more of a friendly dictatorship. I hope George W. Bush doesn't read that! :p

We aren't really short of things to do though, and not short of time to do them, though that will be a long time if you see what i mean. As we've always said we want to go in developing for a long time.

One maybe interesting fact about why we can get quite a lot done (per person) compared with some large teams, is that we mainly do what we feel like doing, that's how we can get the motivation to do long nights and so on. If we worked to someone else's list, we'd be less motivated (morale issues are a common problem in large companies). In fact our main reason for being self-employed is that we can do what we want to to (aside from annoying bugs i'm having to fix half the time of course). We believe in that way of working, to keep ourselves sane. That's also why we don't have fixed plans set in stone for future releases. That may annoy some people but we think it's best to be very flexible and see what ideas come up and look good any time.

:D

(This was all posted on RSC from threads saying they wanted updates, and that the people should have power over the devs to make them post pics and stuff :zombie: )

Very well said from our developer 'master' I might add :up:

Stellios

11th December 2005, 23:02

He is kind of right, the sounds are far better on games like GTR, as are the graphics. The main thing that gets me though is the high nose on the formula cars, its a known bug, and one that has been in the game ages. I hate using the high nose as there is no feel in the car, but to be competitive you have to use it.

I really enjoy the tracks, and dont feel we need more as such, but a few other non turbo cars would be nice.

Also, Live For Speed really is an amazing game, but a bit more marketing would be good to draw a new crowd. It not only gives an advantage by producing more cash for the devs, but it also give more people for us to race with.

Hankstar

11th December 2005, 23:24

TBH, I really don't think the devs are interested to hear marketing strategy advice from people who don't know what their marketing strategy is to begin with. IMHO whatever they're doing works - look at the size and talent of the LFS community compared to that of every other new sim (good old GPL's community is still the benchmark for me :)). Look at the numbers online at just about any time of day in any time zone. I have no idea how LFS is being marketed (or if it is at all) but people are buying it and getting involved in it like no other sim I can think of.

As for the game suggestions/bugs, they've pretty much been flogged to death in the improvement/bugs sections and the devs would have to be blind not to know what people want fixed/changed/added.

I'm convinced Victor, Eric and Scawen know what they're doing (and what they need to do) with LFS a lot better than anyone in the LFS community. I've never created or marketed a highly successful game or product, and because of that I won't be handing out unwanted advice to the devs (even if I did have some :)) For me, this forum is to discuss the game and all related matters, share info/files, report problems, suggest improvements etc., not to tell the devs what to do with their product.

Scawen

11th December 2005, 23:28

Thanks. It's simple enough, LFS exists because we chose a way of working, to take our time and make the program we want. The design decisions and direction are led by interest, our ideas and experiments and also influenced a lot by requests and ideas from the community.

The money that we can make, although an important consideration, is simply not the primary driving force. If it was, then we should do something completely different, something mainstream. There are a lot of easier ways to make money. We're doing this because we like what we do. We don't want to change our partnership, form a limited company, start hiring programmers, artists, receptionists and accountants. That's not what we're here for and it's not why LFS exists. We've specifically left that kind of job.

Making a racing sim takes a long time. It's taken so much time for so many years, that we have allowed the rest of our lives and houses to decay a bit around us. So, it's sometimes a bit hard to take, when we see the amount of attacks that we receive when we take a bit of time to sort things out. I just can't understand what's the rush! We're working on a sim, which gets updated every few months. Sometimes progress is faster than at other times. You get things in the end. Most people understand that, they are happy to have the sim in its current state. But a few people are so impatient, it's amazing, and they have to come up with all these ideas about how we should do things differently, change our lives, even give up our whole lives and anything we want to do, in order to grow LFS as fast as possible. But from our point of view that's just quite strange really.

I shouldn't really need to explain this again, but i can see that the impatience level is rising again. Just relax, there will be new physics at some point when i've had time to work on the aero and the tyres, involving plenty of experimentation and testing. There will be updates from Eric as well. How long it will take, i don't know. If LFS bores you for now, just do something else for a while. You'll get a news letter from us when there's a patch.

Thanks to those who do explain this to people. It's a strange effect, this impatience thing, it seems to be seen often in gaming communities, a few angry guys putting huge pressure on developers for release dates, immense anger when the dates slip or features are cut, then it's even worse when things are rushed out before they are really finished. Gamers need to understand that it just takes a long time to write computer games and simulations. And always longer, year after year, as the complexity increases.

Hankstar

11th December 2005, 23:31

:scratchch :thumbsup:

Vendetta

11th December 2005, 23:37

Yes, thank you Scawen for pointing this out that your not making this game purely to make cash. The approach you take on making this game is why LFS has become so great. :yipee:

the_angry_angel

11th December 2005, 23:44

The money that we can make, although an important consideration, is simply not the primary driving force. If it was, then we should do something completely different, something mainstream. There are a lot of easier ways to make money. We're doing this because we like what we do. We don't want to change our partnership, form a limited company, start hiring programmers, artists, receptionists and accountants. That's not what we're here for and it's not why LFS exists. We've specifically left that kind of job.This just makes me think of the phrase "LFS: Giving the finger to the man, one useless job description at a time" :D Sorry if thats completely wrong :x

Keep up the good work Scawen :thumb: To be honest, I wish I had the balls to get up one day, and do what all 3 of you have done - basically walking out of a job and doing it for yourselves. Its really nice to see what you can pull out of the bag :)

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 00:03

Thanks for the feedback Scawen.

But I have to agree with Soro here. He has valid points: in an unusual way, we are receiving A LOT of good racing sims lately. And while this is good for us, sim racers, it makes people shy away from LFS. Because right now they have a better product elsewhere. When we try to talk about LFS, people will just say: sim? That doesn't feel like a real car, so why should it be called a sim (talking about RWD cars)? And basically, we can't refute that.

I understand the spirit and the soul of LFS. That makes me like it a lot. But well, LFS is a product. People pay money for the product. And people get upset when the product fails to deliver the expectations. This is somehow starting to happen with LFS.

I own GTL, will buy NKP and I am looking forward to GTR2. If they can fix the netcode, that will be a really fun experience to have. For you who doesn't like GTR or say that LFS is THE best without looking to other products, know you are wrong. In Brasil, the GTR league (www.gtrbrasil.com) has a lot of professional drivers there. And a couple of them already played LFS. What is their opinion? That LFS has a lot of flaws in physics and that the setup part of the game isn't working how it does in real life. And they see that part of SIMULATION in the product I mentioned above.

Sorry about the long post, but while LFS is a great GAME, it IS losing space to other product that are being launched right now. And because of that, I believe the devs should aim their goals more directly. What could happen if they don't, and they probably won't (as Scawen said): the community will become smaller, until it gets to the point where the devs can't make a iving from this title. Yes, that is worst case scenario, but it is a possibility.

Take this as a constructive criticism and not as free flaming aimed to the devs or the game or the community. After all, I am a big fan of the product and I am a part of the community as well.

Hankstar

12th December 2005, 00:45

Didn't you read Scawen's post? It seems pretty clear the guys know what they're doing and how they're going to continue it. It's also clear they won't be swayed by people expecting things they have no right to expect, no matter how much those people love the game. Of course, if someone was a shareholder in "LFS Pty Ltd", they would have the right to expect profits, dividends, a more effective or pro-active marketing campaign, quicker updates etc. and all on schedule. As noone is such a shareholder, noone has the right to demand anything of the devs or to give them business advice.

Also, with all the new sims that have been released lately, it's no surprise to me that LFS may be losing some sales - you can't expect LFS to have a monopoly on race sims and I'm sure the devs don't either (and I'm sure they'll correct me if I'm wrong). As an alpha produced by 3 men, LFS isn't even finished yet and it's competing brilliantly with big-budget, big-studio games that are complete and finished. That in itself is a great advertisement. The entire LFS worldwide community - including this forum and all the other LFS sites, all the teams, comps, skinners, renderers, addon makers, everyone who's paid for it and anyone else I haven't mentioned - is also testament to its quality and popularity. Simply: gamers are fussy, and if LFS wasn't good it wouldn't be around and we'd all be playing (and talking about) something else.

I think people should chill out and let the devs get on it with it, at their own pace and in their own time. Their work methods have produced everything we know and love about LFS so far (and for a very reasonable price, I might add) and I don't think they should "step up" anything.

cheers
.h.

Mogar

12th December 2005, 00:51

I think that most of those complains are because several language related patches were released, when most of the problem with lfs weren't language support, but some few physics bugs that sometimes are annoying. Language support is more a cherry on the top of the cake than a real need.

IMO, sound and graphics improvements would be good, but they are not needed right now, but what we need is to get those annoying aero bugs sorted as soon as possible (and some bugs related with penalties that I don't know if it was already reported, about drive through penalty assinged by an admin that when paid not always it's recoginized as paid, but that's a subject for another topic), and we can wait a bit more for the other improvements.

And I also think that this rush for improvements is due to the fact that we already have a great base (the immersion that it provides is just great, we can feel connected to the car so much in a way that no other simulator gives, that we in Brazil call it the "LFSsensation" ), and LFS have potential to be the best simulator by a far margin. We really hope that LFS achieve that.

JJ72

12th December 2005, 01:16

Which keeps me thinking maybe LFS is better off as a cult project rather than a full on commerical project, sooner or later it will sufficate it's soul.
It's a worst case scenario as well but that's also a possibility.

You know, there're plenty of good sims out there doing the main-stream thing, then why on earth, when we know our strength is in the freedom of development and support of the community- that we should take on all of them when we have an disadvantage by design? The game progress slower not because there's a problem, it's how it was designated to be, which is something the devs decided to give away in favour or something else - which leads to the current success.

When LFS's was first out the game has NOTHING, S1 didn't smoke the competition at all, it had no tire heat, no tire wear, and one single suspension type, but still the community grows. objectively speaking actually we are at a much stronger position with S2, since back in the S1 days we were already facing the golden era of ISI mods, and in comparison the development we have far exceeds what they had.

If there's something I worry about, it'll be LFS falling into a dilemma in finding it's position, you know catering the mainstream market and in the same time preserving the dev's control on the project. Not everything in the world has to be perfect and be all conquering in the market, or else why would someone build the AC cobra? or the Lotus Europa?

I am not a fortune teller, but obviously if the worry is about the size of the community, and the money the devs can make. I think the fact that S2 actually EXISTS already proved that won't be a problem.

You heard the story about the Lotus Elan and Mazda Miata?

The Elan is a name with a lot of history, huge resources a poured in each generation and continue that fame. However from nowhere a small japanese company from Japan decide to make something similiar but with a different philosophy - just make a roadster like it should be made. Then you have the Miata,with a small gutless 1.5 engine, manual soft top that garuntees leakage, plastic interior that looks cheaper then that in the London Underground, no speed,, no performance, just that little chassis advantage that makes it fun.

It was never expected to be a huge success, because what they want is just a simple roadster, however thousands are sold, then ten thousands, hundred thousands....the series has remain unchange for a decade besides one facelift, but it continue to sell for thousands.....while the Elan, being hold back between preserving its history and innovating something new, failed miserbly and end up having it's name being sold to Kia.

If a car can remain unchange for a decade, then I think...maybe it's worth to wait a decade for a game as well? We all want LFS to be better, but in this LFS universe maybe better has an unique interpretation?

I've always treasured one thing about the community, is that most suggestions are indeed rised with a good intention, however maybe we first have to get in tune with the devs to actually make that constructive.

Breizh

12th December 2005, 01:27

Just not listening.

You guys oughta schedule a business meeting with the devs.

thisnameistaken

12th December 2005, 01:33

If LFS bores you for now, just do something else for a while.

No way. I'm also going to email the boffins at CERN every week asking when they're going to invent teleportation because I've been waiting for it for years. I bet they say "When it's ready" too those lazy scientific bastards...

Blowtus

12th December 2005, 01:36

it's amazing what tolerant and useful answers have been given to a pile of self important rubbish...
it seems a few people think the devs are capable of making a fantastic racing game, but incapable of making decisions and assesing how to make it? Fairly backwards logic to my mind :)

Mogar

12th December 2005, 01:46

Just not listening.

You guys oughta schedule a business meeting with the devs.

Hey, don't compare us to Delerue.

I'm not here for flaming LFS. I just expressed MY opinion (what I think that the forum allow me to do), and if you read my reply. I'm saying that LFS IS good, but not perfect.

spoonsports

12th December 2005, 02:02

ive just noticed something...speedsoro,delarue and falkowski and mogar are all from brazil....hmm?

L(Oo)ney

12th December 2005, 02:10

Ive just noticed something...sil3ntwar, Spoonsports and hankster and blowtus are all from australia....hmm?

Let the conspiracy theories begin..

Hankstar

12th December 2005, 02:15

I've never met them before in my life! :hidesbehi

:tilt:

Breizh

12th December 2005, 02:19

What's your point?
My point is you come off the same as Delerue. Things aren't going your way, and your solution is making the devs do what you wish.
Like I said, if you are "right", you should be able to make your point apparent and convince the devs with no effort...

So far it seems you're not considering the devs' perspective, or even understanding it.

Gunn

12th December 2005, 02:38

Thank you devs for not selling your soul for a ride on the candy-coated mediocrity train.
Thank you for not caving in to greed and popularity.
Thank you for not allowing modding to dilute the evolution of LFS.
Thanks for being the black sheep.

Thank you LFS for not pretending to be anything other than an online racing simulator.

Not only is the goal a worthy one, the journey is very rewarding indeed. :thumb:

Hankstar

12th December 2005, 02:47

:nod: All that and a bag of chips!

Gunn, I heard you used to be an Aussie too, before you defected to "Other" :)

You make some good points too - the business model of LFS is outside the box, non-conformist and independent - far removed from all the pressures, compromises and occasional lack of quality of large-scale mass produced entertainment. The closer they get to a large-company model, the further from their original dream they'll go (imho), so all power to them. What these 3 guys are doing is top quality, totally original, cost-effective (especially for LFS fans) and should be applauded.

B2B@300

12th December 2005, 03:11

The way the Developers are choosing to work is the very reason I have been hooked on this sim and will remain hooked on it for "as long as it takes" :D

Many aspects of a racing sim are very complex to simulate (i.e. engineer's of many types; in universities, tyre companies and vehical manufacturing plants spend many millions of dollars trying to develop good simulated tyre models with Supercomputers! and still come up short of perfect and they aren't even attempting to do it in real time...) Scawen is doing a very good job with tyres considering he's only got the average users PC to work with, which is maybe like a 2Ghz processor :shy: many developers of games would be extremly tempted to take shortcuts (which under cirtain circumstances may feel like real to life physics but are in actual fact just quick fix shortcuts) but the LFS team chooses to do it right which will take much time :scratchch and thats only one aspect...

Currently I would guess segmants of the physics would have to be approximated and this is the area that needs "plenty of experimantation and testing" to get that approximation to fit real life data as best as possible with the limited computer power available to them :schwitz:

The reality is as we go along computers will get more powerful (another 10 years and the average user will have PC's as powerful as today's supercomputers at least :Looking_a ) so at that time they will be able to simulate aspects of physics they just aren't able to at the current time because of lack of CPU grunt so indeed it could be a job for life if they want it :smileypul

Can't wait for the version of LFS that will be available in 20 years time :thumb: it probaly have the friction of the tyre being calculated in real time at the molecular level where the tyre is interacting with the individual stones and voids in the raod surface :razz: (hey you look how far we've come since the mid 80's anythings possible)

This is just my view of things, I'm not an expert but love being a Jack of all trades :razz:

Vendetta

12th December 2005, 03:22

Well, BBO you better hope scawen is still making LFS when hes 54 :razz:

detail

12th December 2005, 04:08

Ok, there are several somehow, maybe remotely, maybe in some way :shy: , valid points, but... eeerh, there is something abo... :shy: well, i couldn't read the first post to the end. :Looking_a
йа тоже ниасилил ;)

Nick_ll

12th December 2005, 04:14

They don't want the devs to do "what they want". They just suggest a way to improve the product faster.
Now it would just be nice if people around here could realise that LFS IS a product. There seems to be some kind of denial of that when I read things like "you don't understand what LFS is about". Yes everyone does, everyone knows there's something behind LFS other than money as opposed to other titles, but that doesn't make it something else than a product in the game industry.
LFS so far does very good for a 3 men show, but I, like others, believe it might be time to get someone else to join the show, a coder probably. Maybe part time I don't know and ideally from this community so he understands that "spirit of LFS" we hear so much about. The thing is that what I see coming in the future is an opponent sim that would have the same kind of features of LFS like tire deformation, a great mp code, great physics, synthesized sounds, a LFSW counterpart and other things, but that would have been made in about a year's time by a company of 40 persons and therefore would include more complete sounds and a DX9 (or maybe DX10 by then) gfx engine as well as, for example, support for 30+ cars in a race. If that happened, it would kind of be the same thing as LFS S3, but right now. Only downpoint would be them devs probably not taking part in the community......but then again you'd be surprised to know in the modding community of rF we chat with the devs very often....and I believe they listen to us for their next patches.

mkinnov8

12th December 2005, 04:18

I wont waste space by quoting and repeating the devs here in this post, I would say go back and read post number 31 (i think) again, it answers all the questions...

Physics... To be honest for most racers who actually have fun racing online with others, its not noticable that there needs to be changes. LFS has many communities and many many leagues and arranged races...

The point Im making is that for the hardcore fans im sure when things come doesnt matter, or perhaps thats just me..?:schwitz:

Cue-Ball

12th December 2005, 04:31

I don't care how many sims ISI shoves into the market, none of them will displace LFS on my hard drive. Sure, I'd love to have a Pantera in LFS. Sure, I'd love to have Laguna Seca in LFS. Sure, I'd love to have fully 3D corner workers, cheering crowds, etc. But NONE of those things are as important as "feel" in a sim. And, quite frankly, no other sim even comes close to the feel in LFS. I've tried GTR, GTL, etc. and nothing else even comes close. I love old muscle cars and would like nothing more than to drive door to door in a '65 Cobra or an old Mustang. But the problem is that no car or track is fun when you can't feel what the car is doing. Every ISI sim I've ever tried has absolutely HORRIBLE feedback which no amount of tweaking can seem to fix.

netKar Pro has been mentioned a few times as a competitor to LFS. While I think it will be a fine product, I sure don't see it stealing away too many people. Three cars (all open wheelers) and two tracks...please. I wouldn't consider it a competitor at all until it gets some tin tops and another 10 tracks. And "just wait for the mods" is not good enough. Most "mods" in the sim world are subpar and take too long to arrive. Not to mention they fragment the user base and cause all sorts of compatibility problems.

I think I'll stick around here and wait for LFS to slowly improve. It's already better than anything else on the market. Once grip, aero, sound, etc get some improvements I personally feel it will be light years ahead of the competition. And I give a ton of credit to the devs for doing their own thing and doing it well. Good job, guys!

rAcEr2418

12th December 2005, 05:30

I would just like to know one thing regarding this whole comparison. What is netKar, I searched around the internet, found the latest demo, NO DOWNLOAD - it's gone!! Is it dead? Is it even going to come close to LFS or any of the other sim's + from what I've seen, that netKar looks like Racer, which wasn't much fun after a while. So as of now, I don't see netKar affecting LFS, rFactor's mp isn't as accessible or big as of yet, GTL is the only real threat, but it's more expensive and requires a MUCH more powerful computer. Mine is pretty crappy so I am enjoying LFS all i want, versus GTL which I wouldn't even try on my comp. So for me, I would love updates and news more often, but right now, I can wait - and am having the time of my life!! :) :nod:

Julppu

12th December 2005, 06:07

I know this could go a way off-topic but still.. :shy:

I see the "physics" like this: LFS is a (or "the" ;) ) game and games tend to have their own "physics", set of laws that govern the borders where the game can be played. Game's laws are kind of global set, where each individual player carves subsets to suit their "needs". If grip is low at low speeds, then it is: it's player's concern to take that into notice if she/he wants to be competitive within the game's global laws.

Simulation can't be the reality, because then it wouldn't be simulation anymore. Mainly it's in player's head and the outlines of the game aren't actually that important. At least I've (nearly) fallen of my chair when crashing in Pit Stop 2 and also when I've been deep into fighting positions in LFS-race and crashing suddenly. I know this can provoke, but at least I'm hooked if any game offers that "magic" that gets me into the Zone and can't be described.

LFS is an ongoing project. I accept that. LFS isn't my project. I accept that too. I accept everything that belongs to LFS (and not just the concrete things, but abstracts as well). If I wouldn't accept a single thing, I wouldn't be playing it. That doesn't mean I like everything, but I have to accept the global set of "LFS-laws" so that I can find my own subset from it. When further patches come, I'll just adjust my subset according to the changed global set. Adopt, adapt and improve. I'm not a god of this game. I accept that fully. I'm just a pawn that has come to play at the pantheons playgrounds. I don't have shackles, but it's their ground, their laws, their rules.

As a codeslave I hate when someone who doesn't understand the environment I'm coding (or don't understand the actual coding itself) comes with only demands and who won't help the coding in any other way. I also hate when in mid-project someone is "forced" into codeteam without consulting us, the original coders. I admire the trio behind LFS for doing what they want. Wish I could too. At least I can give my supports to them.

Wish I made some sense. I tend easily tend to slip, drift and rant unclearly :shy:

Blowtus

12th December 2005, 06:18

Zoltuger

12th December 2005, 06:34

Ive just noticed something...sil3ntwar... are all from australia....hmm?
australia? i doubt it

:sheep:

Julppu

12th December 2005, 06:37

if 'acceptance of the game laws' was all that was needed for a good game, you wouldn't see all of these games having patches produced at sizeable cost to the companies developing them :) lfs is enjoyable for many because of the relation it bears to 'real life' racing.

Well yes of course. What I meant was that the relation to 'real life' racing is one of the reasons why someone would accept the gamelaws in the first place :) Another reason could be the knowledge that further patches are coming and the game improves in it's relation to 'rl racing'. No-one is forced (at least I hope so) to accept the current set of laws the game has to offer. I mean that players can only accept or not accept the laws, as well as suggest improvements instead of demanding them. Of course the discussion should be open to all points of view, but it should be noted that the community can't control the coders unless they want them to. And in that case I'm pretty sure they tell so themselves ;)

xaotik

12th December 2005, 07:14

Gamers need to understand that it just takes a long time to write computer games and simulations. And always longer, year after year, as the complexity increases.

Also, gamers need to understand that a game is played for this weird thing called fun - when it's not fun any longer and especially when it's the exact opposite, then it's time for a break...

Speed Soro

12th December 2005, 09:35

B2B@300

12th December 2005, 09:35

So for me, I would love updates and news more often, but right now, I can wait - and am having the time of my life!!
Good on ya m8 and welcome to LFS :D I'm sure you'll still love it in another six months... the only time I feel down about LFS is when I read some of the sugestions (read complaining) that are made :razz: all other times it's just great fun and everytime I get a good close scrap I forget about all else :nod: there is nothing like racing other humans after you've experienced that who would ever want to race computer opponents again :shrug:

Well, BBO you better hope scawen is still making LFS when hes 54 :razz:

Well m8 I'll be 58 then and don't think my interest in all things motor sport will have wained much (my old mans still a petrol head at 68 :p) so if Scawen and Co are still keen I'll be :razz: infact I should be retired by then and have more time :scratchch now what could I do with more time :D

I have my own bussines here. For sometimes I decided to work alone, and that was not a good idea.

Let the others do 90% and take care of the 10% remnant. That is the way to do things before the world ends...

Well I'd say quite a few of us have had or have our own businesses here, and there is many ways to approach a business depending what your goals are... which I thought Scawen explained very well, so you have your view he has his, and I guess history will show if Scawens goals are achieved.

Manytimes it is as businesses tries to expand that the original vision and zeal are lost, when you hire many people that don't necessarily share the same vision as the original founders...(not to mention the extra overheads and pressures of expansion) you are right in saying to aggressively attack the market place requires a different approach, but Scawen has already stated that is not one of his goals, his goals are to produce a quality racing game/sim and enjoy the process at the same time... and I for one think it is a good goal... will that ever make LFS the top selling Sim? I serriously dought it... but that want stop me from supporting and enjoying this great game/sim for as long as they care to continue with its development...

P.s. you are allowed to have and play other sims/games also so why must you insist this be the ultimate racing sim? enjoy it and any others that might come along also...

Funnybear

12th December 2005, 09:55

I suppose as everyone else has hed their say I better had too.

I bought LFS S2 under the impression that it was a a good value, good standard Indie release. I actually thought it was a finished product, it's onloy recently that I have begun to realise that this product isn't anywhere near being finished. That makes me very happy because now I know why the Fo8 on the oval run nose high, and it makes me even happier knowing that that is going to be fixed. But to be honest I am also happy playing within the GameWorld Laws (As someone mentioned up above). Scawen mentioned impatience in his sermon, prompting people to excercise I little more of the afore mentioned virue. I for one agree. HF2 was started pretty much as soon as Half Life 1 had shipped, and look how long it took that game to reach us, and it still needed patching. And Valve seem to be on of teh more involving devs with its customers.

Most games you get from the big power houses (With the exception of the obvious, HF, the Quake engine, Unreal) just use old engines with a new graphics package chucked on top. Very rarely will they completly build an entirly new physics, graphical and sound package from teh ground up. Which (If my facts are correct) these LFS guys are trying to do. It takes time to do these things and I actually think they are doing alright. It's only because they do keep us so well informed and updated, and the fact that Minsiter Scawen comes and graces us with his sermons, that we get impatient. We want what Scawen has told us, and we want it now. that is only natural. But as Scawen sais, it takes time. I'm sure the Devs have so many good ideas they want to implement, so many new ways of doing things, so many dreams to fill and aspirations to . . . .aspire too, they are having difficutly just giving us the essentials without giving us the associatedf detritus. I would rather they gave us little bits, but perfect bits, than give us a huge but flawed release.

Devs. I paid my money. I like what I see. Good work. Give me some more soon. Please. Pretty please. Ta. Thanks. Then I can do what I like doing most of all. Playing a good game.

axus

12th December 2005, 09:59

noemfie

12th December 2005, 10:24

AJS

12th December 2005, 10:43

I think that most of those complains are because several language related patches were released, when most of the problem with lfs weren't language support, but some few physics bugs that sometimes are annoying. Language support is more a cherry on the top of the cake than a real need.

If you live in a country where they teached you russian or other languages than english it IS a real need.

I think and hope NKPro will be good but it´s even more a 'niche' sim. At least at the time of the release the content is very much limited.

We have to accept that the perfect sim needs time. If NKPro hires a bigger staff and progresses faster with the same amount of quality well than they will win the race. Easy as that. I said IF...

If i feel bored with computers and the current state of technology i quit spending money and do something else in the best and most realistic freeware engine we do have.

B2B@300

12th December 2005, 11:13

The way I see it ....

If LFS was developed using a normal business model we would not have heard anything about LFS until about 6 months or so before its final release (in this case 2008-2009) .The game would have been released and people who liked it would have bought it . Using the current model we pay to be part of a process and play a game while its still being developed , we have this cool opportunity to shape LFS into what the Sim community need and wants . Lets compare LFS to other sims when S3 Final is released in the coming years

nah thats where your wrong m8 :razz: if it followed a traditional business model it would be more like the TOCA Race Driver serries which are upto about the 3rd release i believe at A$89.90 a pop for each "new" game when it's first released and support thats non existent for the same old same old :pillepall

Vykos69

12th December 2005, 11:43

You are not understand me...:pillepall

The problem is not LFS, but the concurrency...

Scawen, you don't know me as much I know you. You have no idea how I love your work, how I propagate your work, how I defend your work.

I'm not impatient. I'm just saying to you: the market is waking up.

I have my own bussines here. For sometimes I decided to work alone, and that was not a good idea.

Let the others do 90% and take care of the 10% remnant. That is the way to do things before the world ends...

And dont't tell me LFS is not a business, cause it is, ok? You sell it, don't you? And we bought it, don't we?

I'm not a business consultant, and I don't know, and have no rights to decide your business for you.

Just listen to your customers...

peace

No, you dont understand what scawen says: He doesnt care a shit for the market. Doesnt matter if there is nkpro out, if any other game might be better, he'll continue on his LFS-way. He has no need to listen to the customers, that they put pressure on him, to release anything faster. Better you try to understand the LFS-way b4 saying to anyone, that he doesnt understand you. I bet he understood you actually quite well, and he actually explain very well, WHY HE IS NOT listening to your suggestions. Let the market awake (ROFLMAO), it wont change anything on the way LFS is developed.

KiDCoDEa

12th December 2005, 12:00

he understood "you" even before you posted. last time he understood this kind of dumb bossing around he quit one of the games industry top team.
what are u trying to do now?
pedantic arrogant demands? what is he? your cheap 24quid slave?
lfs reference is reality, nothing else. and soon you gonna see this phrase copied by other sims also. maybe professional reality then.
honest, read some of this game history or just plainly, **** off clueless.

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 12:06

No, you dont understand what scawen says: He doesnt care a shit for the market. Doesnt matter if there is nkpro out, if any other game might be better, he'll continue on his LFS-way. He has no need to listen to the customers, that they put pressure on him, to release anything faster. Better you try to understand the LFS-way b4 saying to anyone, that he doesnt understand you. I bet he understood you actually quite well, and he actually explain very well, WHY HE IS NOT listening to your suggestions. Let the market awake (ROFLMAO), it wont change anything on the way LFS is developed.

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

That sentence alone can make me feel I'm being ripped off for buying an unfinished product while I didn't necessarily knew it was an unfinished product. I'm only making assumptions here, because in my case I knew how LFS was ade and I support it.

I just don't believe it's right when the "community" closes the eyes to everything else, and create something like this stupid worship about a PRODUCT.

Yes, it is a good GAME, but it has a lot of flaws. And hey, if I don't like the game or see games being released that are better (within MY perception), I won't exitate in playing them. And THAT is exactly the problem my friends. The point where the huge companies understand how to make a sim and release products we can only wish Scawen made in 1 year time.

But hey, keep playing. I know I'll receive a physics update. I just don't know when. And I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.

lfs reference is reality, nothing else. and soon you gonna see this phrase copied by other sims also. maybe professional reality then.

Kid, is this is true, so LFS fails MISERABLY to deliver what it aims for.

B2B@300

12th December 2005, 12:16

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

If you bother to read the blurb at the point of sale before you purchased you could not be mistaken what you are buying it's stated very clearly :pillepall do you sign contracts of purchase regularly without reading the disclosures? certainly doesn't sound like a good business man talking :x

Scawen

12th December 2005, 12:16

...I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.Uhh, no!

You paid for your S2 license, and you have it. That doesn't entitle you to demand updates. It gives you the right to unlock any versions of S2 as and when they come out. Where in the agreement does it say that you have the right to demand updates?

Let's be clear, you can demand what you like, but all you will do is annoy the developers. We do listen to the community, really a lot. But rushing us and telling us that our way of working is wrong and that we should turn onto a company and employ more people, doesn't help in any way. Because it's the way of working that we have chosen, and we aren't following standard routes, even if they could deliver faster update rates. Like i said before, as we've always said, we're doing this because we like this way of working. That is the reason LFS exists.

We've always delivered what we say we'll deliver and we've always said it takes time. And Vykos is right, that we don't really mind if a good sim comes out that entertains the sim community for a while. We just carry on working on our sim as well.

axus

12th December 2005, 12:17

You have the RIGHT to **** off and stop playing LFS if you don't like it.

1.4You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

You also have the right to bitch and whine all day about how LFS could be better but you will achieve nothing. You have not got the right to DEMAND anything. If you don't like it, tough. Get over it. IMO this is better for LFS in the long term.

B2B@300

12th December 2005, 12:21

Well said

:thumb:

If you guys have made any error, I'd hate to say it but it is you are too familiar with the community :scratchch an old saying goes "familiarity breads contempt" and it appears to be true today as much as in the past unfortunately...

sinbad

12th December 2005, 12:26

I think as long as S2 has "Alpha" stamped on it, many people that have an S2 license will feel like they are "owed" the final thing.

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 12:28

Uhh, no!

You paid for your S2 license, and you have it. That doesn't entitle you to demand updates. It gives you the right to unlock any versions of S2 as and when they come out. Where in the agreement does it say that you have the right to demand updates?

Let's be clear, you can demand what you like, but all you will do is annoy the developers. We do listen to the community, really a lot. But rushing us and telling us that our way of working is wrong and that we should turn onto a company and employ more people, doesn't help in any way. Because it's the way of working that we have chosen, and we aren't following standard routes, even if they could deliver faster update rates. Like i said before, as we've always said, we're doing this because we like this way of working. That is the reason LFS exists.

We've always delivered what we say we'll deliver and we've always said it takes time. And Vykos is right, that we don't really mind if a good sim comes out that entertains the sim community for a while. We just carry on working on our sim as well.

If you look back at my posts, I never said you should change the way you work. Not a single time. Yes, I have the S2 license. As a costumer, I also have the right to say what I like and I don't like about this product. Maybe the developers will listen, maybe they won't (more likely. It only happens that the devs listen to us here in LFS and with Grey Dog Software - an american company that produces sports pbp titles).

And axus. I know you are a kid, and I know that. I know how the developers are commited to the community. But as I said in another forum, sometimes the level of "worship" we find here is kinda scary. And btw, if you are not aware of, the consumerist law gives me the right to demand things ;) (i'm a lawyer, btw)

And Scawen, just keep working. You know you will have to filter what you read. Take the good and let the bad go unoticed. If you thing I'm a smartass, because I don't post here often, so be it. I really don't care. I just want you to do what your goal is (S3), because until now, no big time company was able to produce the netcode you have (and hey, now I'm being serious: if GTL had the same netcode as LFS, dude, I'd be almost giving up on LFS until major patches and corrections were released).

But well, it seem this is not the place to say some different things about the game or only bring some whishes from people that are in Brazil. The fanboys will never listen, because LFS is the truth, and everything else is nonsense.

Simon Savage

12th December 2005, 12:30

I do think they should release the source code it would prob not do any harm.
And some real tracks would be great!

Vykos69

12th December 2005, 12:35

But hey, keep playing. I know I'll receive a physics update. I just don't know when. And I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.And here you are completely wrong, but damn, I'm a n00b, scawen has beaten me once more... Damn slowpoke I am. As I said already to other guy, you just dont understand the LFS way, so go play any other game, until you get back to LFS. That's how the Devs actually also like it. If there is some better game, go out and PLAY it for gods sake. The day, you'll receive the newsletter from liveforspeed.net or get info from any gaming forum, you'll download the patch or the new full version anyway, unlock it with your still working unlock password and have a go at it. I simply know, you'll do that. So it doesnt matter if there comes out a sim from EA every year, where you pay 50 bucks each time for updates, or you download the free updates for LFS once in a while. I'd choose the LFS way always, but that's just me then ;)

axus

12th December 2005, 12:38

Do you honestly think GTL's sampled from tables of values physics are more accurate than LFS, if less buggy for now? What I am saying is that we have not seen any real improvements in LFS that affect us for the past 5 months or so and we have forgotten the rapid pace that Scawen can spit patches out at. I admit LFS is flawed at the moment for downforce cars. The low speed tyre physics may be iffy too. This is why I spend my time concentrating on road cars for now. When the physics are sorted I will learn to drive the race cars too. Improvements are soon comming. Hang in there for another 3 or so months and wait for the next patch. If it doesn't float your boat come back and discuss it again (in a civilized manner and not asking the devs to change their philosophy and the reason why they are here, but rather suggesting ways to work around the problem while maintaining the same philosophy - if you can't find any you can simply comment on the product and wait for updates). That is all I am saying to all LFS doubters at the moment - hang in there for another 3 months (or when the next physics patch comes) and see what the devs put together. If you still don't like it, then complain.

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 12:40

Vykos, as I already said, I know how LFS works.

And now I want you to go back and see where I demanded things. I didn't made one single demand (perhaps I mentioned about the aero stuff in my fisrt post, but that is aknown issue and I know it's being worked on). I just said that as a consumer I have the right to demand things where I paid for a product and in some ways of viewing it, didn't receive what I was "supposed" to.

And yes, I play other games, I have a life and a lot of work, so LFS isn't a top priority for me. It is just for fun.

I'll just stop now. It doesn't make sense continue this argument when you (or we) are uncapable of understanding what we (or you) are trying to say.

Neokiller

12th December 2005, 12:43

omg...

Well to be honest i admire the devs patience and you should be thankful for their replys here and also for their work.

I play all the games, GTR, GTP, rFactor and i enjoy all a lot, and in my point of view those games are better in some ways than LFS, more realist, or better graffics or sound, well doesnt matter..

LFS have something special that i noticed in my first contact with it.. this since 0.2 version and i´m still playing it and enjoy every lap and every km on it, and i dont really need a new patch to have fun in LFS, coz it have a fantastic community and also a fantastic development team that is listening the community to make a better game with their feedback and they are also always ready to help us... for this i´m very thankful.

I trust in the devs to finish their work as a "costumer" i´m very happy with their work until now..

Speed Soro

12th December 2005, 13:06

First of all dear Scawen, you should know we all, LFS racers in Brazil, respect you and your conrades Victor e Erick.

We respect at high level your work. We never support piracy or unlock ways to "test" LFS.

We've fought for you, we are your sellers, not commissioned. I think that, just from me and my eulogizes ,there are probably a new half dozen S2 licenced players these last months...

We have servers, we have sites and leagues, and yes, we have a good and fiel community here, not the biggest, but one of the best, including many hotlappers such as Mogar and Carlos as you can see in the tables...

And thanks God, for us and for you (if you can see this), we are not blinded, we are not members of a religious sect.

That is good, once we are not here just to suck your balls, but also to show you what is going not good enough.

Of course we are not here meaning to rule your days, but we are trying to say to you, cleary and loudly: we don't want to like another SIM, but we are about to!

Please community, stop cheating you don't mind about concurrency. Stop cheating you don't mind about graphics, about sound and about other stuffs that yes, make difference.

And mainly, devs, stop cheating you don't mind about market, cause you need to eat, and you need money like we all need, and if you have no money, you will be obligate to find jobs, and LFS will be delegated to a second plane for sure...

We hope for a great future for this SIM, but not a so far way future.

You are a public person Scawen, and when you give your work to the world you became a target, and when you sold your work to the market, you became a business man, so you have to get used with the criticism, once you are polular and you are a seller.

There is no offense here. It is just what it is.

We are not here to offend you, we are not here to rule your work, I repeat.

When you say that is the "way you choose to develop the game", my doubt is if it's about the final result you are looking for, the target, the great objective of your work, or if you are talkings about the not-ruled-by-the-clock you choose to work...

I concern about the second option cause the clock never stops..

axus

12th December 2005, 13:18

Directionless essay

Most of the LFS community has been around long enough to know that the improvements are soon going to come and LFS will again be light years ahead of everything else out there. I am not blinded, you haven't thought about what's cooking and you haven't thought what is coming in the next physics patch. I say this again: wait for the next incompatible patch where all the work that Eric and Scawen have done behind the scenes that we haven't seen yet will be seen. Assess it. I think it will amaze you. The issues in LFS are known - you haven't discovered anything new when you say the aerodynamics has a bug. They are being worked on at a rapid pace that hasn't been seen by many new people. Just wait and see what the devs come up with.

Vykos69

12th December 2005, 13:32

Please community, stop cheating you don't mind about concurrency. Stop cheating you don't mind about graphics, about sound and about other stuffs that yes, make difference.hahahahaha, guess what, a lot in the community, if not all say, that sound e.g. in LFS is not good YET, but they know someday it'll kick ass

And mainly, devs, stop cheating you don't mind about market, cause you need to eat, and you need money like we all need, and if you have no money, you will be obligate to find jobs, and LFS will be delegated to a second plane for sure...Just go read in RSC and several old posts, where scawen said: "thanks to the licenses sold the FULL development of LFS is save."

Bet get your homework (=read, read and read) done, b4 assuming, you are posting nu shit here. It's one of the oldest topics and it was cleared up several times b4.

We are not here to offend you, we are not here to rule your work, I repeat.
rofl, better read your own post once again.
When you say that is the "way you choose to develop the game", my doubt is if it's about the final result you are looking for, the target, the great objective of your work, or if you are talkings about the not-ruled-by-the-clock you choose to work...

I thought you dont want to rule him? Step back, go buy rfactor or nkpro, enjoy it for the time being. You'll be back to LFS anyway sooner or later. Just stop that shittie "I demand, you dev. faster, cause I know you wanna sell more etc." It's bullshit, it doesnt work, and if I say THAT, you better believe. Dont wanna sound arrogant, but besides some others I prolly have some experience in especially that topic with the devs.

Scawen

12th December 2005, 14:15

First of all dear Scawen, you should know we all, LFS racers in Brazil, respect you and your conrades Victor e Erick.

We respect at high level your work. We never support piracy or unlock ways to "test" LFS.

We've fought for you, we are your sellers, not commissioned.
Thanks for your fighting. I know you want the best for LFS. But all i can explain is that we do already work on LFS as hard as possible. And yes we can work as late into the night as we want, and don't set an alarm clock. Did i ever say that alarm clocks aren't the best thing for humans? It's really nicer if you can sleep until you wake up. Alarm clocks are the product of jobs that run to strict schedules, and that is one thing we are lucky enough to have been able to escape.

Anyway, the number of hours for the past few years is quite extreme, i have worked to my physical limit. Since S2 Alpha, the pace is slower and after a much needed break, the language patch was a very nice way to finally get something done that needed doing, while getting me back into coding.

We will NOT form a company and begin to employ staff. So here is my point : if we are working as hard as possible, and we won't employ staff, how can we possibly produce any more work, more quickly? It'll just take as long as it takes! I've said that i'm working on physics next, actually that starts in January, as this month i work on my house and spend some time studying and considering physics at a relaxed pace.

And mainly, devs, stop cheating you don't mind about market, cause you need to eat, and you need money like we all need, and if you have no money, you will be obligate to find jobs, and LFS will be delegated to a second plane for sure...We're not cheating about this, or trying to deceive you or ourselves. It is a business, that's for sure. But what we see a bit too much in the modern world, is where every single decision made by a business, goes through the filter "will this make more money" and the decision to do anything, is based on the answer to that question. That's not something we like, and we think the best businesses have some other philosophy. In our case, we do not deny that LFS is a business and the money we make is important. But we do not need to and do not base our design decisions on financial considerations. We just do what we are inspired to do, and that we think will make a better game and sim. That's why LFS is here and that's the way we will carry on.

luzik

12th December 2005, 14:59

There was a time in my life that i can choice:
Good money, and stressful hard work
or
average money and free way to do things in my way.

I choice second option, devs had similar question to answer.

Dan Hot

12th December 2005, 15:32

For sure! I wish more people would take that on board.:thumbsup:

ajp71

12th December 2005, 15:55

I do think they should release the source code it would prob not do any harm.
And some real tracks would be great!

WTF? Scawen may be very generous but I doubt even he wants to through away all the knowledge he has gained, on the plus side ISI might actually be able to look at it and begin to understand how a car works, not Codies though, I have no hope at all for them :)

mkinnov8

12th December 2005, 15:57

To (http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=43486)Speed Soro...

Not everything is about money, or market, it really isnt, some people do it cos they like what they do, I love the way LFS is worked on, I bought my S2 licence and am very pleased with the product I bought. Anything more is a bonus that I will pay for whenever the time comes.

I hope that the developers will keep working on updates and patches just as much as the rest of you, but meanwhile, back at the ranch, life goes on.

To Falkowski83...

So your a lawyer... :pillepall and...?

I would really love to see both your Online Racing Simulations when they are finished, good luck.

keiran

12th December 2005, 15:58

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

Okay then if thats your logic then I'll go and demand Mesh Computers to update my computer :pillepall

Keiran

Fordman

12th December 2005, 15:58

didn't receive what I was "supposed" to.

Just a quick question on this. When haven't you receive what you was "supposed" to? You paid for S2, yes. OK so you are lucky, and you have S2 Alpha and are able to play this before S2 is out. S2 isn't out yet, so yes atm you haven't received what you have paid for, but on the site, it clearly stats, that you are paying in advance, so cannot see the consumer arguement here.

Example: You pay £500 for a new stereo, but only get the amp, as the other parts are not finished. You knew this, but wished to pay upfront. Thats your choice? Same goes for LFS. Its your Choice. :scratchch

and we aren't following standard routes

Thank god for that

ajp71

12th December 2005, 15:59

We will NOT form a company and begin to employ staff. So here is my point : if we are working as hard as possible, and we won't employ staff, how can we possibly produce any more work, more quickly? It'll just take as long as it takes! I've said that i'm working on physics next, actually that starts in January, as this month i work on my house and spend some time studying and considering physics at a relaxed pace.

In fairness to the Devs they do work pretty quickly, it's taken Netkar 3+ years to be re-written and Racing Legends is still a couple of decades away :)

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 16:08

Okay then if thats your logic then I'll go and demand Mesh Computers to update my computer :pillepall

Keiran

Dude, I won't even comment on this. They don't have the need to update your computer. But if you get a flawed hardware they have to trade it for a functional part, right?

Lol

Just a quick question on this. When haven't you receive what you was "supposed" to? You paid for S2, yes. OK so you are lucky, and you have S2 Alpha and are able to play this before S2 is out. S2 isn't out yet, so yes atm you haven't received what you have paid for, but on the site, it clearly stats, that you are paying in advance, so cannot see the consumer arguement here.

Example: You pay £500 for a new stereo, but only get the amp, as the other parts are not finished. You knew this, but wished to pay upfront. Thats your choice? Same goes for LFS. Its your Choice. :scratchch

We all know that there are people who buy things without reading one line and expect things to be the regular way (you always pay for a finished product). This people might believe they were cheated in some way, because they received a 'flawed' alpha product.

Also, about the End-User license agreement: that doesn't work as a regular contract. You do not sign that, and it works like a "click-wrap" contract. This is not considered a valid expression of will by the consumer, according to the Model Law on Eletronic Commerce of the UNCITRAL.

Again, this is not my point of view, as I know how LFS is developed and I agreed on paying in advance for a finished product.

Basically, we are thousands of beta testers who already paid for a product we don't know if we are going to receive.

Fordman

12th December 2005, 16:13

Basically, we are thousands of beta testers who already paid for a product we don't know if we are going to receive.

But you will, eventually. Scawen said S2 will be released. When, who knows, but IT WILL be released. Now maybe you are confusing this with S3. NOBODY has paid for S3 yet.

But yes, you HAVE paid for S2 and you will receive S2, just when its ready.

thisnameistaken

12th December 2005, 16:16

NOBODY has paid for S3 yet.

Tristan says he has. Although I think in reality Tristan has made a contribution to the data transfer bill for the forums ;)

NotAnIllusion

12th December 2005, 16:20

It'ssupposedly possible to pay for S3, the way Tristan's done it. If you pay extra, it's held back in the payer's name and used towards paying for S3 when it's released.

zurdospeed

12th December 2005, 16:21

c`mon we have a great oportunity of playing this alpha version with loads of improvements from S1. Its not finished yet, but i prefer this version much more than my old S1.

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 16:24

But you will, eventually. Scawen said S2 will be released. When, who knows, but IT WILL be released. Now maybe you are confusing this with S3. NOBODY has paid for S3 yet.

But yes, you HAVE paid for S2 and you will receive S2, just when its ready.

Yup. the only way we are not going to receive S2 final is if something REALLY bad happens (I won't even say this here because it could cause some bad luck. lol). But I believe you all understand what I mean).

And no, I'm not confusing with S3. And yes, as already mentioned above, there are people who already paid for S3.

DjXano

12th December 2005, 16:36

S3 first the S2 should be completed :S

dont dream s2 is in alpha version

Speed Soro

12th December 2005, 16:40

Scawen,

I'm one between many that trust in your efforts to achieve the best racing simulation. I also believe you've worked hardly a lot of months before s2 release.

My intention here was never to dict what or when you must to do things, neither what things you, Vic and Erick ought to.

Face it just being a thermometer.

Have a nice day, keep working :color:

Fordman

12th December 2005, 16:50

Already paid for S3

Yes, I am also one of those people. As you can see, I paid for it in 2004l. Why, well I just wanted to show my support for the Team and I had the money then. If it doesn't arrive, well then they can have a few beers on me.

Fordie

keiran

12th December 2005, 16:58

Dude, I won't even comment on this. They don't have the need to update your computer. But if you get a flawed hardware they have to trade it for a functional part, right?

Lol

Why not comment on it. My comment was based on your logic ... if you happened to read the LFS terms and conditions you would have realised you have no right to demand anything, just like I have no right to demand new hardware from Mesh. You've paid for LFS S2 and at the moment have a tester version in return untill S2 full is finished. It's just like pre ordering any other game. No game store will be able to throw a copy of the game your way if it hasn't arrived yet no matter how much you demand for it.

Keiran

ellis_dee

12th December 2005, 17:06

Also, about the End-User license agreement: that doesn't work as a regular contract. You do not sign that, and it works like a "click-wrap" contract. This is not considered a valid expression of will by the consumer, according to the Model Law on Eletronic Commerce of the UNCITRAL.

So, pro-lawyer, why is it you dont sue them then? Explain the jury, why you think you have a right to install alarm-clocks in scawen bedroom and force them to work even harder...ridiculous....:pillepall

I also paid my money for the license, and even if it was just for the alpha, I wouldn't have regretted buying it, when I think of the countless hours I spend with it....and I am not even a fanboy. I would have bought GTL, if i had a machine to handle that, I played GPL, I tried the F1C mods, and thats a nice change to have the Norschleife in a simulator. I'd really love to see that track in LFS, but buying that license does NOT give me the right to demand the devs to put it in or anything that i would wish to be in. As a customer, you have the right to choose products or to return them, if they are defective!!

I appreciate what they have already given to us, and what is coming is just something on top. I can fully understand the devs way to have their indi-project and not following the rat race...wished we had more people with some values and goals other than just ever more money.

So Scawen, Eric and Victor, burn your calendars, trash your alarm-clocks and take care of friends and your own mental and physical health, and I will patiently wait for patches, new releases, track addons and raylle packs, whenever you feel like throwing them out.

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 17:29

C'mon guys.... I never personally atacked anyone in my posts. Nevertheless, you are doing it against me. Why? Don't you agree that this might scare some more "open-minded" fans? Aren't you being too agressive without a reason?

Keiran, your logic was a deformation of my first tought. You used the example of getting an entire new product for the price you paid for one befor (getting a major upgrade on yout computer). That isn't the case and that wasn't nearly as close as what I meant. And I justified it in my subsequent post: using your example, you have the right to demand a new hardware if you receive a flawed one (ex.: you buy a GF 7800GT, and the cooler doesn't work. You are going to receive a new hardware, because it is your right to have a functional video card, you paid for it.) And using this same logic, the ill-advised consumer goes and buys the S2 license, but believes it is a FINISHED product (after all, that is how regular market works). He can argue that he was cheated, because he expected to get a finished product, and already paid for it. Now, please, note that I'm not saying he will do it or that he must do that. It is only the example, in wich you made a distorted assumption.

Ellis: please, go back and read everything I posted. I am not saying that is my personal opinion. Nor that I wasn't aware of how the game is developed. I just used EXAMPLES of what a regular consumer could believe. If Scawen wants to work 1 day per week, that is his problem, not mine, and I can't affect or change that. He will work the way he feels he will produce better, and I praise that.

I also appreciate their work and their idea. I have bought other simulators, and I play them. The only purpose of this thread was, like Soro said, make this as a thermometer to the developers about what is happening in the rest of the world. Sims are being made, and I guess we just would like to know how LFS is going to fight that. And we already had a direct answer from Scawen.

So, please, don't make assumptions based on a distorted view of what I said. Go back and read all my posts, I never made any afirmation stating that I am unhappy or whatever. I also mentioned my profession, just so people would know that end-user license agreements don't mean a lot when considering the major laws that rule e-commerce.

Bob Smith

12th December 2005, 17:45

Tristan says he has. Although I think in reality Tristan has made a contribution to the data transfer bill for the forums ;)
Hehehe. :D

Anyway, enough of this thread, we're keeping Scawen from researching physics. No more distractions!

AndroidXP

12th December 2005, 17:53

Look, I can vaguely see your point, but if someone can't friggin READ and COMPREHEND that S2 Alpha is not a finished product, then they sure deserve to feel ripped off.

Consumer protection is good and all, especially against fraud companies who send out "you win the prize! give us money" coupons, etc. But the best example of how NOT to do it is the US where sueing the sh¡t out of companies, because the customers are too dumb, is common practise. So they have to put warning lables for every goddamned thing so if another dumbass screwed up they can say "look, we pointed out how not to do it, it's your fault". Gladly the courts over here in Europe have more common sense and don't let such crap go through. I'm drifting abit off here, am I? :D

Anyways, I don't know where this Brazilian conspiracy theory originated but consider this: you may actually be wrong. I seriously don't see any death signals that need immediate fixing via some obscure marketing strategies that simply aren't in the devs mind. Also, I don't know if this is a language thing, but you seem to constantly overread Scawen's posts or their meaning and then proceed to post the same nonsense all over again. Please stop that. It gets old. Quickly.

Thank you.
Already paid for S3What? Who? Where? :scratchch

Hyperactive

12th December 2005, 17:59

Basically, we are thousands of beta testers who already paid for a product we don't know if we are going to receive.

I kinda agree with him here... I have nothing against how they release their patches and I'm pretty happy how things are progressing. As LFS is and has basically always been in developing state people maybe expect the updates too eagerly. After all we get good updates and LFS itself is very stable and reliable system. But I still find it a bit strange that I have paid money for a product and I have no information what it (S2) will eventually include.

All I know about the S2 full is that Scawen is going to look at the "aero bug" and tire physics. That is enough for me about those, but it would be nice to know some other things they might be thinking. Like are these thought to be included in S2 full (not that are they going to be there, not if and when they will be there but just if the devs are thinking that these should be there, but not sure. Something that tells me that they are going to give it a glance. Or even something that tells me that the aero fix isn't going to be the only one thing fixed before S2 full):
1* race starts with false starts
2* engine damage
3* obligatory must-fix damage when in pit
4* will there be better in-car textures

Like the "4* option have been discussed but there are other priorities to be taken care of first" being said.

Basically this is all what has been said about S2:
Now that we have a solid, improved version, physics is next on the list for development.

And I am not going to even ask about the rally pack :x :D

JJ72

12th December 2005, 18:12

I am not saying that is my personal opinion. Nor that I wasn't aware of how the game is developed. I just used EXAMPLES of what a regular consumer could believe.

But it seems to me you are now pretty alone in this "regular consumer" opinion.:shrug:

Mogar

12th December 2005, 18:18

Well, I see that some users here really get angry when someone points a flaw on LFS.

I hope that the devs don't take things on this way. Everyone should be opened for other ppl comments. I'm not talking about who wants NOS on LFS or some other ridiculous stuff, but we have to recognize that LFS has still some flaws.

Ok that those flaws don't prevent making LFS one of the best simulators out there, and we now that the devs WILL solve some of them (under S2 scope at least) because they've a enough background that make us to trust them, but we can't be blind about problems, nor flame who points a flaw on LFS.

There are several hardcore LFS fans here (I am a LFS fan, although not hardcore, but it's the only racing simulator that I have on my computer since I downloaded S1a demo), that have maybe a too strong atitude supporting LFS, but those shouldn't make ppl that wants to contribute someway and wants a better product go away from the forum, or else, the devs will only have feedback from the hardcore fans, and this kind of feedback is dangerous IMO.

Falkowski83

12th December 2005, 18:19

Anyways, I don't know where this Brazilian conspiracy theory originated but consider this: you may actually be wrong. I seriously don't see any death signals that need immediate fixing via some obscure marketing strategies that simply aren't in the devs mind. Also, I don't know if this is a language thing, but you seem to constantly overread Scawen's posts or their meaning and then proceed to post the same nonsense all over again. Please stop that. It gets old. Quickly.

Yes. I never said I was the owner of the truth (wich I am not). Nor a fortune teller. I know I may be wrong. And so all of you also may be wrong.

Well, you know that our mother language is portuguese. Personally, I'm fluent in English, as some of my friends that posted here. We are putting the ideas over and over because there are people (not Scawen) who just seem to distort our initial ideas and put things in our mouths that we didn't say. Understanding what we mean seems to be a really difficult thing to some members of this message board, and I believe that I was cristal clear in every post I made.

But well, I'll stop this here. I won't post in this thread anymore, as it is leading nowhere.

If you want to keep this thread open, OK. But if you close it, it won't matter either. I just wish the devs work in the pace they feel like, so we can have a finished product sooner rather than later.

Peace.

AndroidXP

12th December 2005, 18:37

Actually, yes, your posts were probably the most understandable.

But. First, we don't get mad at someone pointing out flaws. We get mad at someone pointing out flaws for the 48092th time. Flaws that have been discussed to death. This is directed at the obligatory "physics are flawed" statements.

Second, we get mad at made-up flaws. Like "the market is getting tight". If you want to make a point, prove it. To prove something doesn't mean "because I think so" or "because I am a XYZ". Get some facts together and point them out, then you have a valid statement.

Third, a thread is pretty much doomed when the first post is made in a kinda rude and offending way, which may have been because of language discrepancies, but nevertheless, personally I still think the first post was and is kinda bold.

The third and last point is probably the reason for the general reaction in this thread. Next time you want to discuss something like this, get factual backup and you may have a "chance". Trying to prove something by posting it over and over again won't earn you any love, or open ears for that matter.

mrbogeyman

12th December 2005, 18:51

it would nice if people would stop trying to converse with scawen directly, i think he really has other things he would rather be getting on with.

so leave the devs alone, they havent dissapointed anyone so far! :D

JJ72

12th December 2005, 18:54

And I see people getting all fed up because of a flaw in LFS, which is weird because I can't understand why someone would like to upset themselves over a product. And with that happening it's not a surprise to see the devs and us being a bit defensive. Such is the interesting Psychology behind, people who are fed up annoys another and another annoys even more till the point is lost....

Once in a while some people will pop out filled with anger and start repeating the same criticism over and over, and I think the LFS community did a fair share of it to just laugh it away, and of course some of us acted in the fanboy way, however fanboyism wouldn't grow unless someone catered it, and this is where I find the angry customer theory confusing because if someone is being put off by the emotions here, then he is just as emotional affected with his own opinion. If someone truely have a point, he will be heard and there IS a space for that.

I hope those critics don't take us like we actually take things that way, because if you give the LFS community peace and a more relaxing atmosphere, positive inputs might appear more easily.

Like I said way earlier before...most of the posts here are started with a good intention, but in the same time it's hard for us to get into the dev's perspective instead of basing heavily on our own, LFS feed on trust - trust on the devs to work their best, trust on the community to be honest, and trust that this is a package that is going to work.

LFS isn't a number, isn't a brand..it's a way of life that actually allow a humanbeing - instead of just a "consumer" to get involved, and if someone choose not to be involved it's just fine, however one must understand you won't be really contributing unless you get in tune with the relationship.

You can be hardcore and still be objective, loving isn't spoiling, and hating doesn't always bring improvement either, if we trust such ideals are true then there should be nothing to worry about.

tristancliffe

12th December 2005, 19:06

If you buy LFS without realising what you are paying for (i.e. S2 which doesn't exist in it's final state) then you are a mug.

If you buy LFS without realising what you are paying for, and then burst into tears about it, then you are a proper fool.

If you buy LFS realising that updates, patches, features and niceties take time and have their own separate adgendas, and want to be, in a way, part of the process, then great. Enjoy LFS. It's not finished, but it's still excellent when compared to ANY other racing sim on any platform. Not the best in every area yet, but perfection takes time. The thing with LFS is that not only is the end product gonna be brilliant, but the journey there is gonna be a good'un too.

Blackout

12th December 2005, 19:13

A mug?

luzik

12th December 2005, 19:22

A mug?
yeah ..tristancliffe (http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=18566) even look as Harry Poter :D, did any one noticed that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggle
..maybe i am wrong :]

SparkyDave

12th December 2005, 19:28

lol Tristan the wizzard :)

Mug : Slang : a fool or victim.

Mikkel Petersen

12th December 2005, 19:29

You're wrong, this is a mug, kind of big cup.. :pillepall:shrug:
http://www.martin-baker.com/images/merch_JSF-mug.jpg

axus

12th December 2005, 19:42

Wow... so bored...
I read the posts and then refreshed to see if new ones had appeared before I posted and some had and then I read them and refreshed and there were more boring posts and then I read them again and refreshed again and there were even more boring posts. The only thing I leaned is that "mug" can also be slang for fool. I give up on this thread.

tristancliffe

12th December 2005, 19:52

Blackout

12th December 2005, 20:32

Weee, now I know one word more :D
edit. this thread has gone totally wrong btw...

Breizh

12th December 2005, 20:33

from your friendly customers from hell, who want nothing but the best for you.

Hankstar

12th December 2005, 20:36

Wow, didn't this thread come to a sudden anti-climax? :)

Never mind, I think it's clear who thinks what about stuff, and who thinks who should sod off and chill out a bit.

The real winner of this argument is LFS, for being of sufficiently high quality to spark such spirited debate :nod: You simply don't get such lively discussions over at the Hello Kitty Super Kart forums :D

mrbogeyman

12th December 2005, 20:43

Hey, at least some one gained something from this thread, and all because of an accidental hijacking by me mentioning mugs. Fordie is right, I meant the person type of mug, not the beverage type :D

Is this better?

@tristan: from your piccy "the boy who lived" haha, good one :thumb:

you should have had LFS tatooed on your head though, not a lightening bolt :P

Speed Soro

12th December 2005, 20:47

Forgive Tristan, Father, he doesn't know what he does! He is just a little fanboy...

rAcEr2418

12th December 2005, 20:51

Well I havent got much more things to say that ne1 has already said ... so, Here is my take, Just let the devs do what they want and how they want it, its there game...let them have their philosophy of running things because...look at this - DONT WE LOVE THIS GAME?? ARENT WE PLAYING EVERY DAY?? ARENT WE PASSIONATE ABOUT IT?? - that means we enjoy because it was well made thus far SO> THEY MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT!!! So therefor, let them take there time and do it the way they wanna do it cuz they havent dissapointed us thus far.

LONG LIVE LFS!!

RaCeR

tristancliffe

12th December 2005, 20:52

Forgive Speed Soro, Father, for he knows not what he paid for, nor his rights about the game, nor what the development style is like.

Bogey, see above a few posts ;)

axus

12th December 2005, 20:54

Oh WOW! Sigh. Fanboy? I think Tristan has simply seen and appreciated the devs' efforts for what they are worth insted of just think of his own ass. If you honestly think anything beats LFS at the moment go and play it - also think of LFS in 3 months time. I think you are just an idiot with your head up your ass and you just insult when all your points are proven wrong.

L(Oo)ney

12th December 2005, 20:54

Is this better?

No, this one is though.

canadaman11

12th December 2005, 21:04

We all can't wait until the physics patch comes out, but you dont see us all starting a thread attacking the Devs. Simply put, you lack appreciation and maturity. Theres a time and place for everything, and well this thread is neither. To the Devs: Man, We could not ask for a better racing community, the online gameplay is simply phenomenal, the tracks, the new cars, the stats,the lastest hi-res updates, just everything you guys have done is superb. Thank you
Keep it up!:thumb::smileypul:thumb:

axus

12th December 2005, 21:08

Is it just me or has this forum become full of people who do not understand:

1. The licensing system of LFS
2. The LFS development team and their long term
3. The way LFS is developed
4. The meaning of the word "Alpha"
5. Car physics
234216. The meaning of the word "fanboy"
43251347. The fact that bugs are known and whining about them won't get them fixed quicker

Eldanor

12th December 2005, 21:19

A nice summary for this thread is:

"Donde hay confianza da asco" (Spanish)

This can be translated to something like: "where there is confidence makes sick", wich means (more or less) that in a situation of mutual confidence, people tend to be more careless in their treatment with the people they have confidence with.

Maybe the terms are not the correct ones (man, that was hard to translate!!) but I hope you get the point.

Regards

BWX232

12th December 2005, 21:56

And I also think that this rush for improvements is due to the fact that we already have a great base (the immersion that it provides is just great, we can feel connected to the car so much in a way that no other simulator gives, that we in Brazil call it the "LFSsensation" ), and LFS have potential to be the best simulator by a far margin. We really hope that LFS achieve that.
That has been my thoughts exactly on this subject since the day I bought LFS S2 (the week it came out IIRC).. I played every single week, put many, many hours in, but I am waiting till the next update to play again.. since rF came out.. :Kick_Can_

zurdospeed

12th December 2005, 22:10

Eldanor

12th December 2005, 22:22

You give your hand and they take your arm ;)

Bingo! :thumb:

B2B@300

13th December 2005, 02:36

Yes. I never said I was the owner of the truth (wich I am not). Nor a fortune teller. I know I may be wrong. And so all of you also may be wrong.

Well, you know that our mother language is portuguese. Personally, I'm fluent in English, as some of my friends that posted here. We are putting the ideas over and over because there are people (not Scawen) who just seem to distort our initial ideas and put things in our mouths that we didn't say. Understanding what we mean seems to be a really difficult thing to some members of this message board, and I believe that I was cristal clear in every post I made.

And this is where it all started... the first several posts come across as quite arrogant and demanding to english speaking people (regardless of their intent) so unfortunately that had set the tone for the rest of the thread :shrug: And I'll just be brutally honest here, while you come accross as fluent in English, I'm afraid your friends don't, so I think there would have been quite alot of misuderstanding going on especially in the area of tone and intent...

This is indeed a recurring problem between international communications (it's hard enough between native english speaking countries at times let alone countries where english is not the first language :Looking_a )

Having said that people also make assumptions about each other all too easily (it's very easy to apply labels rather than understand people) this goes for all parties in the discusion including myself... you will find that many of us who defend LFS strongly also see it's problems just as clearly as others, but it's just we have a different perspective of those problems than some, that's all :scratchch

Speed Soro

13th December 2005, 08:22

']**** off!

that's where all started, and this was just the second post in this thread.

axus

13th December 2005, 08:43

JJ72

13th December 2005, 09:23

wowowow I think the point that a word is censored is that it's not a good word.

chill out lads.

B2B@300

13th December 2005, 09:27

No, it was started by the lack of thought in the first post. You think that the devs are shallow people who are just here for the money and we are just here for the finished product. Maybe you _should_ really **** off now and stop thinking you are one with a new idea here... this is a periodic thing - every 2 months or so, we get a new thread like this.

Yep I'd have to agree with Axus here, although I'm quite alot more tolerant than Axus (he's young and impetueous :p) I'm sure given time he'll mellow like us oldies :D and I also agree the second post didn't make the situation any better, but like you or your friends said of the developers "if you market a product to the public you'd better be ready for some critisim" well the same can be said of expressing your views publicly... we all (including myself) need to take critisim in a non-personal way as Falkowski83 rightly pointed out (i.e. spit out the bones)

As for the first post I'd even go further and say that you were conveying the wrong message right from when you thought up the tittle of the thread :shrug: But as I said I for one, as I know most others will overlook that as your not a native english speaker, lets move on... as Falkowski83 said peace :tilt: hey I've stomped on plenty of toes around here and english is all I speak :razz:

YUGO45

13th December 2005, 11:47

For those of you that have this information or maybe the devs can answer. I understand what Scawen is saying on behalf of him and the rest developers. I also get what the brazilian guys want (inst this what we all want?). Time is for me not an issue, i would rather wait more and have a GOOD patch then to get the devs running mad so they relese ANYTHING, just so they could "satisfy" us. Have just simples questions if its posible to answer them at this time. Considering the next update:

- Will there be better sound improvements? YES NO
- Will there be weather changes effects? YES NO
- WIll there be a better desing of the "cockpit" YES NO

I know you will be working on the physics, so that question has been taken care off.

So......... will we see this in S2 or is it expeceted in S3?

PLEASE, SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION, DONT COMMENT WHY I ASKED! OR AM I NOT ABLE TO WAIT, ETC,......

Thank you.

PS
If you cant or dont want to answer the questions above, its ok aswell.

axus

13th December 2005, 11:59

whendrix

13th December 2005, 12:13

that's where all started, and this was just the second post in this thread.

I'm sorry but you make me really mad with what you post. The upsetting part of this whole thread for me is the tone of your original post. With your "we need this - we need that" attitude you think you are expressing the oppinion of all LFS drivers here. Wake up and get a grip to reality, the fact that you're getting so much replies here is not an indication that people agree with your point of view, quite the opposite I would say.

Moreover, I for one am getting so bored with this request for updates crap, reminds me of the RSC days of this forum... at time I hoped was over once and for all when the LFSforum went its own way. This thread, sadly, proves me wrong.

Here is where you are completely wrong bud. The developers MUST listen to us. WE are CUSTOMERS. We PAID for a PRODUCT.

<snip>

And I know I have the RIGHT to DEMAND updates, because I PAID for a PRODUCT.

If that's your oppinion, I invite you to look for an officially supported SimBim forum and demand updates there... Get back to us and see how far you get.

You seem to forget the fact that end-users of LFS actually have the means of discussing stuff with the devs through these forums. Don't abuse that privilige by posting things that are not true, wasting the devs time and patience.

If you believe you haven't got what you paid for so far (full S2) you should have read the disclaimer before making the transaction.

Wim

Falkowski83

13th December 2005, 15:44

If that's your oppinion, I invite you to look for an officially supported SimBim forum and demand updates there... Get back to us and see how far you get.

You seem to forget the fact that end-users of LFS actually have the means of discussing stuff with the devs through these forums. Don't abuse that privilige by posting things that are not true, wasting the devs time and patience.

If you believe you haven't got what you paid for so far (full S2) you should have read the disclaimer before making the transaction.

Wim

As I am going to say for the 12.345.123.635,37 time, I said that based on consumer laws. I have the right to do that. Not that I want to. And not that the developers will listen to me.

But now we've come across an important issue: the Simbin product is a finished product. It can be full of bugs, physics errors, but they release it as a finished product. Yes, I can "demand" updates and the physics I find right, but they can just state that they already delivered me the finished thing.

Now with LFS, you pay for the expectation of the product (please, don't start flaming me here now. I KNOW how the proccess works and how things are done), so theoretically you have the right to demand the final version that you already paid for.

And about the disclaimer and end user license agreement: this is considered a "click wrap" contract. When you don't have to read it all. You have an option to click 'next', and you don't read that. These kind of contracts are believed to be harmful to the consumer, as there can be a lot of prohibitive clauses, that just wouldn't make sense, and everybody would click 'next' and never reading that. If I did not made myself clear, please ask where the post was confusing for you and I'll try to explain better the "click-wrap" contracts and how they work when you are facing a litigation.

As for the right to talk to the devs, don't be mistaken, please. I know we have the right to exchange ideas with them and they ask us 'directly' what we want new about the game. And for the mainstream companies, the developers may not talk to the consumers, but I for one know that they read the forums to know what is the overall feel of the product within the consumers (one nice example is EA Games and 2K Sports when it comes to the video game sports titles. If you go to OperationSports.com, you'll see that some of the developers actually listen to what the consumers have to say)

[ ]'s

tristancliffe

13th December 2005, 15:59

Actually, as far as I know, you are allowed to pre-pay for LFS S2, with the disclaimer that they don't know when it will be released, or what features it may or may not have.

As a subsequent 'gesture' we are allowed to download, unlock and use the Alpha version of the software we pre-paid for, again on the understanding that it isn't complete, there might be bugs (which is why it was released in some ways), and that we just have to sit back and wait for any updates as and when they come.

You do not, and never will, have the right to demand ANYTHING from the developers. Not even a refund, because the Terms and Conditions make it quite clear that payments, either for a product, in advance of a product, or as a donation cannot be refunded (at least, after 30 days has elapsed anyways).

Blackout

13th December 2005, 16:08

This is just an another moaning thread discuised as a somekind of great developtment improvment, fanboyismn and consumer-law issue. This makes me kinda mad.

Fistly, this "end user license agreement" thingy, if you dont read it and click ok, thats your fault. You just cant say it means nothing because I didnt read it.

the Simbin product is a finished product. It can be full of bugs, physics errors, but they release it as a finished product. Yes, I can "demand" updates and the physics I find right, but they can just state that they already delivered me the finished thing.

Now with LFS, you pay for the expectation of the product (cut) , so theoretically you have the right to demand the final version that you already paid for.

All games a paid by expectations. And LFS devs could do like Simbin. They could release a patch which would remove the alpha text and say "ok, here is your S2", no fixing of bugs or anything, and of they go to Bahamas. All people have freedom of speach and you can demand anything you like, I can demand half of Sweden, but I think they dont have to give it to me. But in this case devs havent said anything about the release so you really cant hurry them up. But I think you allready knew that right ;)

edit. tristan said it better, and I agree

L(Oo)ney

13th December 2005, 16:22

I'll just make sure i wont make the same mistake twice.

I wont be pre-ordering anything ever again.

AndroidXP

13th December 2005, 16:26

...
So, the main thing you "mock" about is (and that is probably only because you as a lawyer notice such things) that there's no "I have read and agree to the terms" checkbox that prevents clicking the next button before it's checked?

Do you really think that changes anything, or makes anyone read the terms before? Actually, the chance that the LFS "Agreement" is read is way higher than most of the installer-included EULAs simply because it's much shorter. All those "consumer protecting" tricks like checkboxes or having to scroll down the EULA does nothing. The average user isn't slowed down by such measurements at all, actually he's expecting that there's a checkbox somewhere on the EULA screen so he can proceed to the next step within tenths of seconds.

Or am I misunderstanding you? :shrug:

Personally I think all this consumer protection is important against companies that actively try to fool people into false assumptions to harvest their money. I can nowhere see that with LFS.

axus

13th December 2005, 16:38

...

If this annoys you, wait till all the threads start popping up early next year, saying that LFS was meant to be released in 2005 according to the videos. I agree fully with what you say though.

YUGO45

13th December 2005, 17:00

Let me then refrese the question.

I bought my licence with a "in box" CD from live-for-speed.de. Now, that was some months ago. I asked them why is the delay of the CD? The answer was plane and simple: "LFS isnt finished, its still ALPHA, we cannot send you an unfinished product. I can burn you a cd if you want with the ALPHA version". Whats wrong with this sentence?

Dont get me wrong, I really like LFS and dont have anything against the game. Just dont like getting "ript off". I guess it will be "published" when S3 comes out, which i definitly wont buy "in a box".

Ok, that i wanted to say :scratchch Its the only thing i find "negative" that has conections with LFS.

Let me just add that LFS could be so much more fun with some more add ons like people are saying here. But its not for us to decide whats next to do on the scedual. Lets just hope for the best :nod:

SparkyDave

13th December 2005, 17:10

how were you "ript off" ? because you havn't recieved a CD? :Looking_a

SD,

YUGO45

13th December 2005, 17:58

Yes I didnt recieve any official CD like promised, and I think neither did other people that ordered the same package.

Blues

13th December 2005, 18:19

Let me just add that LFS could be so much more fun with some more add ons like people are saying here.
And LFS will be much more fun in the future, so just relax! :smileypul

Vykos69

13th December 2005, 18:35

Yes I didnt recieve any official CD like promised, and I think neither did other people that ordered the same package.
As it was written in your order, you'll receive a CD with S2 Full, not Alpha. That's what you ordered and that's what you'll get. You werent ripped of, your money isnt gone, there was always warning that the CDs will be produced, when S2 Full is there. S2 Full isnt there yet, so relax.

Hyperactive

13th December 2005, 19:05

Let me then refrese the question.

I bought my licence with a "in box" CD from live-for-speed.de. Now, that was some months ago. I asked them why is the delay of the CD? The answer was plane and simple: "LFS isnt finished, its still ALPHA, we cannot send you an unfinished product. I can burn you a cd if you want with the ALPHA version". Whats wrong with this sentence?

Dont get me wrong, I really like LFS and dont have anything against the game. Just dont like getting "ript off". I guess it will be "published" when S3 comes out, which i definitly wont buy "in a box".

If I understood it correctly they are offering to send you a CD which includes S2 alpha FOR FREE! And when S2 full is out, they will send the official CD too. This is great offer. Now, where can I buy Racing Legends alpha, burned CD is ok by me :D

It's just sad that these threads always get this f**king negative thing going on. Do people read their posts before pressing that send button. Where is the constructive criticism, which is still wanted by the devs?

YUGO45

13th December 2005, 19:22

please read what i wrote down in my post(s), then comment.

"ripped" ....... wasnt meaning it was a SCAM, thats why i put " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " " !
@Hyperactive

Well, if you like bending over, then cary on .......... or just download the original games and "burn" them.

-I am not replying to this thread, since you people understood me the wrong way.-

PLAYLIFE

13th December 2005, 20:21

And dont't tell me LFS is not a business, cause it is, ok? You sell it, don't you? And we bought it, don't we?

I'm not a business consultant, and I don't know, and have no rights to decide your business for you.

Just listen to your customers...

peace

Well, Speed Soro, you are not a business consultant for sure... Many companies are formed not for money but to financially support the owners so that they can do as a job what they like... As seems to be the case here!

GP4Flo

13th December 2005, 21:04

I just want to add that the CD being selled on live-for-speed.de isn't an official Live for Speed product, but an third-party "package". The devs have allowed me to produce such a package, but are not responsible for it. So if you have any questions concerning the CD, just drop me a PM or e-mail.

At the time of the S2 alpha release I had to decide whether to put an unfinished version on the CD or not. I decided to wait for the final S2 release and that's why no-one received a CD yet. I can assure you, that all the people who have pre-ordered will receive their CD right after the next big update, meaning that the major physic flaws are fixed.

whendrix

13th December 2005, 22:19

If this annoys you, wait till all the threads start popping up early next year, saying that LFS was meant to be released in 2005 according to the videos. I agree fully with what you say though.

Don't get me started just yet :D

Seriously, in a way I understand (most?) people want full S2 now but I cannot understand the "we want this - we want that - and we want it now" tone in some of the posts here :shrug: You should realise such attitude doesn't get you anywhere.

@ Falkowski83
Don't misunderstand me, I'm pro consumer rights and I do agree some (most?) license agreements are confusing and just too long to read for most people but this certainly cannot be said about the LFS agreement presented to you before paying S2. The fact that there is a check button or not doesn't really change the end-users' ability to read the agreement. In the end it's your choice whether you read it or not.

Anyway, I would say, we're all in the same boat, waiting for S2. In the end it's going to get released. Writing a 10 page thread about when the day will come is not gonna accelerate the process ;-)

Wim

Tr8cer

14th December 2005, 00:07

I have all but stopped playing LFS, stopped playing sims for that matter...
Havent posted here for much longer.

I still come back and check on things every so often for two reasons;

1. LFS is a great game, even though the product will NEVER satisfy my A.D.D.

2. I think the devs are the model for what i wish i had - my own boss to work on what i love, as it pleases me, while making a living doing it.

I have ABSOLUTLY NO DOUBT that many of you that desire and politic for "if i were in control i'd do this" would find themselves one of two ways after 2 years of working on the project;

1. you would end up just like the current devs -happy and casual about what they do and how they do it.

2. a managment type with $$ in their eyes -highering employees, marketing, and pressuring the workers to produce as fast as possible. (EA)

Unfortunatly, most that go with the second route find quickly that the "market" and that business model is brutal and,, evil lol! And whats worse is that they usually fail...

Wether the devs were making LFS or frozen yogart, i wish the biggest thorn in my career was dealing with people who gripe on a forum.
(which you could just choose to ignore if it suited you :) )
You guys have the right idea imho,, not LFS alone but life/career in general -i commend you!

tehkahless

14th December 2005, 00:51

sorry for getting back to the first page of this thread which seams a little off topic right now .. but anyway ...

I am big opensource fan but:
1. Scawen, Eric and Victor must eat, as far as i know they life from LFS, and with opensource and whatever licence you will be very dificult to keep promise that they will get same money as now.
2. I even can't imagin how to control such big project, how to control best quality of new tracks/cars ...and prevent from forks (this is vary bad for comunity)

I don't know what's the problem everyone seams to have with opensource .. you might not want to put it under a GPL-like license where everyone can fork and distribute as they want.. but imagine if everyone could patch LFS to see how it fits.. post it on the board for testing .. and if a few think it improves LFS the devs can see how (and if) they can use this patch... Currently the only way for the community to give input is by making verbal suggestions without even knowing how they would effect the gameplay/feeling in LFS ..
(the license would need to make sure that authors who modify the code need to resign from their rights on those changes which need to be transferred to the LFS devs if they decide to use it)
OpenSource does not necessarily mean that you give it away for free .. just that you provide the source code to customers

and i guess there are enough skilled people in the LFS community who have the passion to dig into the code and manage to make valuable additions.. i don't think there would be too much work necessary on the LFS devs- side

of course it might make it easier for crackers to circumvent the registration .. but this already exists (at least for S1 .. since i bought S2 afterwards i never looked for a S2 crack) .. so even with the source it wouldn't be any different .. and .. the market of LFS is at internet-multiplayer and competetive leagues (afaik ?) .. and both can be controlled by the LFS devs themselves .. i don't think an illegal fork would have much success in driving away revenue ..

the only other problem with publishing the source might be to opening some implementation secrets to competitors .. well .. i have not much clue about car physics .. and altough i'm quite sure there are some very nice tricks and beautiful algorimths designed by the LFS devs in it.. i can't imagine that any major LFS competitor wasting time and money to learn and understand the implementation of LFS to use them illegally in their own products.. i guess it would take weeks or months to find something which can just be used that easily .. and if .. imagine the reactions if some employee of EA or whatever would publish they needed steal code from another game .. that would be just insane ..

anyway . i think it would quite fit into the unusual development process of LFS .. using techniques and idiologies managers in big (game) companies wouldn't even consider in their nightmares ..

well .. the devs will find their way to have the most fun producing LFS .. (and still make a living out of it).. it's quite impressive what they did so far .. so no doubt that they know how to plan,code,design,organise and publish/distribute their product best (and created a loyal active community around it) ..

Falkowski83

14th December 2005, 00:53

So, the main thing you "mock" about is (and that is probably only because you as a lawyer notice such things) that there's no "I have read and agree to the terms" checkbox that prevents clicking the next button before it's checked?

Do you really think that changes anything, or makes anyone read the terms before? Actually, the chance that the LFS "Agreement" is read is way higher than most of the installer-included EULAs simply because it's much shorter. All those "consumer protecting" tricks like checkboxes or having to scroll down the EULA does nothing. The average user isn't slowed down by such measurements at all, actually he's expecting that there's a checkbox somewhere on the EULA screen so he can proceed to the next step within tenths of seconds.

Or am I misunderstanding you? :shrug:

Personally I think all this consumer protection is important against companies that actively try to fool people into false assumptions to harvest their money. I can nowhere see that with LFS.

Dude, wait, please. Lol. Things are reeeeaaallly far away from what I was intended to say. When I talked about the consumer rights, yes, it could relate to me, as I am a consumer. But in this thread, I wasn't intended to flame the developers or anything!!! Actually, I'm not even sure how this consumer debate started and how or why I started to talk about the "click-wrap" contracts, but hey, whatever.

So, what I wrote wasn't anything directly related to LFS, was related to all products or software that we buy on the internet. So, don't get that as an offense aimed right on Scawen's face. LOL

Hey, c'mon, now I just hope we can enjoy LFS S2 Full in something like 5 months. That would be awesome.

[ ]'s

Breizh

14th December 2005, 01:04

</backpedal>

Boris Lozac

14th December 2005, 06:46

But now we've come across an important issue: the Simbin product is a finished product. It can be full of bugs, physics errors, but they release it as a finished product. Yes, I can "demand" updates and the physics I find right, but they can just state that they already delivered me the finished thing.

So you are saying that you would rather want a "finished" product full of bugs, wrong physics, bad custommer support, no further patches just because it says on the box "FINISHED"?? :pillepall You are a happy customer now?? What if S2 alpha was released with the CD box, printed manual, etc, and is registred as finished? Would you ask for updates, patches, etc? NO! because again you would be "happy customer" with a Finished product in your hand, although you would know and see that there is room for improvement, but you wouldn't ask for the patches, and improvements because you have a "FULL" game, and you are very "happy"..
We get to play the alpha version that is better then anything out there that is "finished". And you moan about that?? You would rather just look at the screenshots and trailers, waiting for the FULL version, or would you play the game while it is near finished?? I choose the second option..
I payed the lousy 36 euros for an excellent product, and I KNOW that i would get the FULL version FOR FREE!! later.. Now, this is a bad thing??! :pillepall God people, how can you be so ungreatfull??

AndroidXP

14th December 2005, 06:53

Hey, c'mon, now I just hope we can enjoy LFS S2 Full in something like 5 months. That would be awesome.

[ ]'s
Heh, ok then :D

S.Konyshev

14th December 2005, 09:58

Ppl, It's time to shut up, and let the devs continue their work instead of reading this useless discussion.

sinbad

14th December 2005, 10:31

Actually, as far as I know, you are allowed to pre-pay for LFS S2, with the disclaimer that they don't know when it will be released, or what features it may or may not have.

As a subsequent 'gesture' we are allowed to download, unlock and use the Alpha version of the software we pre-paid for, again on the understanding that it isn't complete, there might be bugs (which is why it was released in some ways), and that we just have to sit back and wait for any updates as and when they come.

To be fair Tristan, where does it say S2 might be buggy and is not complete? In an old news item tucked away at the bottom of the main page at lfs.net. There's nothing in the "read before you buy", license agreement, content, or how to buy sections. Sure it's sometimes referred to as "S2 ALPHA P", but that doesn't mean anything in itself.......Street Fighter Alpha 3 anyone? :)

NotAnIllusion

14th December 2005, 11:23

"S2 ALPHA P", but that doesn't mean anything in itself
Must be just me then. To me "alpha" specifically means a project in the development life cycle where it has been deemed so incomplete that it is yet to get to the beta stage (which is when most non-finished products are made available for the first time I think). To me alpha screams out "incomplete, not ready, very possibly buggy, use at your own risk".

Falkowski83

14th December 2005, 13:24

So you are saying that you would rather want a "finished" product full of bugs, wrong physics, bad custommer support, no further patches just because it says on the box "FINISHED"?? :pillepall You are a happy customer now?? What if S2 alpha was released with the CD box, printed manual, etc, and is registred as finished? Would you ask for updates, patches, etc? NO! because again you would be "happy customer" with a Finished product in your hand, although you would know and see that there is room for improvement, but you wouldn't ask for the patches, and improvements because you have a "FULL" game, and you are very "happy"..
We get to play the alpha version that is better then anything out there that is "finished". And you moan about that?? You would rather just look at the screenshots and trailers, waiting for the FULL version, or would you play the game while it is near finished?? I choose the second option..
I payed the lousy 36 euros for an excellent product, and I KNOW that i would get the FULL version FOR FREE!! later.. Now, this is a bad thing??! :pillepall God people, how can you be so ungreatfull??

Aaaaargh!!!!

I give up. Lol. Nobody seems to understand my toughts.

I AM NOT BASHING THE GAME. I UNDERSTAND WHAT ALPHA MEANS. I LIKE THE WAY THE GAME IS DEVELOPED AND I FULLY UNDERSTAND IT. And I won't talk anymore about the costumer thing. If you didn't understand what I meant, sorry, I won't explain it for the 10.927.465.839.278.162.739 time.

Now I'll play Pac-Man on my Atari, so feel free yo do anything you'd like (including flaming this post, if you want to).

shockman

14th December 2005, 13:24

Before S2 Alpha was released, "everyone" was posting threads about "we need progress reports, S2 release, cheaper fuel, cleaner environment, peace in the world...etc". As soon as the Devs released S2 Alpha, the forums were full of praise, everybody was suddenly happy. And now it happens all over again - "we need this, we need that...", and I am sure everyone will shut up as soon as S2 Final will be available. It is so predictable, I guess the Devs have to be already enjoying this :-).

Boris Lozac

14th December 2005, 13:41

Aaaaargh!!!!

I give up. Lol. Nobody seems to understand my toughts.

I AM NOT BASHING THE GAME. I UNDERSTAND WHAT ALPHA MEANS. I LIKE THE WAY THE GAME IS DEVELOPED AND I FULLY UNDERSTAND IT. And I won't talk anymore about the costumer thing. If you didn't understand what I meant, sorry, I won't explain it for the 10.927.465.839.278.162.739 time.

Now I'll play Pac-Man on my Atari, so feel free yo do anything you'd like (including flaming this post, if you want to).

No man.. :) I wasn't talking directly to you, i meant generally, the complaining people.. ;) Your posts were Ok, and constructive, i only Quoted the part of your post and was talking to "YOU" as YOU people.. :)

sinbad

14th December 2005, 14:02

Must be just me then. To me "alpha" specifically means a project in the development life cycle where it has been deemed so incomplete that it is yet to get to the beta stage (which is when most non-finished products are made available for the first time I think). To me alpha screams out "incomplete, not ready, very possibly buggy, use at your own risk".

The dictionary definition of "alpha" is not : "incomplete, not ready, very possibly buggy, use at your own risk". That's all I'm saying.
I didn't mention the "Street Fighter 3 Alpha" game by accident. That game is very much finished and 100% complete. "Alpha" is part of its name and does not suggest that it is buggy or incomplete.

Without explaining that "Alpha" is the name for an early stage of development and that the product is incomplete, "Alpha" doesn't really mean anything in the case of "S2 ALPHA P".

But.... I guess most "gamers" know what beta-testing is and so on, so for most people it's clear enough.

NotAnIllusion

14th December 2005, 15:50

Yes I see your point.. and I agree, it should be explained. you say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to.. :)

Ped7g

14th December 2005, 15:55

As an game programmer I can just support Scawen's words... games take really lot of time to be created.

No matter how much the competition does push, there is certain amount of work to be done on LFS, and there is certain time window, in which it is possible to finish that work.

If competition is able to release 5 sims during that period, than so it will be. Either that, or Scawen will have to change the development team, but as he indicates, he's not willing to do that.

Actually I don't see any harm in having other sims released. So what? If you are bored by LFS, do something else. Play GTR2, GTR3, GTR4, etc... till the new version of LFS arrives.
Than download and see what's new, maybe it will be horribly lacking behind the newests GTRx.y.z, maybe it will be 1 lap ahead of it.

Scawen did choose this model of development and his goal, and it's his responsibility to fullfill his goals in a way he finds best. (i.e. the final release of LFS should be very good sim ... no matter when it will be released. That's how I understand their goal with LFS)

I think LFS is not (and can not) competing with big developers, so it's logical SimBin can release more games in the same period of time.
Actually I wonder how long SimBin will last, I don't think they can sell enough of GTR/GTL to stay alive with current huge dev team for long. Maybe I'm wrong about sales figures, and depends a lot on the cost of FIA licences and the effectivity of publisher (10tacle), but publishers and developers are ranting all the time about how poor the sales are, and I'm ranting all the time about how wild did the whole developing budget stuff go in recent years, no wonder sales are "poor", if you need to earn $20mil+ back to cover budget.

Falkowski83

14th December 2005, 16:21

No man.. :) I wasn't talking directly to you, i meant generally, the complaining people.. ;) Your posts were Ok, and constructive, i only Quoted the part of your post and was talking to "YOU" as YOU people.. :)

:thumb:

I have to disagree with one thing. I don't really think my posts were constructive to the development of the game. I believe I made myself clear in the points I wanted to make. But my goal wasn't saying "the FZR needs this or that or something else", because I am not a professional driver, so I can't really argue physics that much (although when something is just too off you know, because it doesn't feel right).

But thanks for explaining.

Hyperactive

14th December 2005, 18:05

@Hyperactive

Well, if you like bending over, then cary on .......... or just download the original games and "burn" them.

-I am not replying to this thread, since you people understood me the wrong way.-

The part of my post which said things about these threads getting always the same negative aspect was not towards you, soryy if it seemed like I was trying to bash you :)

But if they will send you a S2 cd when S2 is finished, then In my mind you have no problems. And I was ready to pay for that burned Racing Legends cd, but only if it was legal :D But it was a joke

RudiTurbo

14th December 2005, 19:31

The thing with LFS is, They dont make the game to make money, they make the game for US, the Real Lovers who Love LFS always and will wait forever for it. And I dont really care what other sims are out there, LFS is My Wife :D

Tweaker

14th December 2005, 19:49

LFS is My Wife :D
I don't care how awful this sounds... but I find it kind of funny how some say "The sex stops once you have a wife" :p Poor Rudi :D

Funnybear

14th December 2005, 20:17

LFS is my Whore, means I can **** her senseless, throw some money at her and return to real life knowing a good time was had . . .

dontsimon

15th December 2005, 00:48

It is odd witnessing all this crying and screaming. As Scawen mentioned, it's very strange all this behaviour in gaming communities - anger, whining, tantrums and demands etc.

Personally I feel pity for these impatient types. And envy too. Pity because obviously they seem to have little else in their lives worth their time and passion. And envy because they seem to have little in their lives to worry them or burden them. Either that or they have a major perspective malfunction.

I use sim racing and LFS as my hobby. I just wait till Scawen sends my a nice email. Makes a nice surprise every few months. And as he mentioned, they can't actually physically work and create faster than they already are. Unless they give up all life outside of LFS and become 24hr LFS robots.

Have a nice Christmas folks :)

B2B@300

15th December 2005, 01:38

Unless they give up all life outside of LFS and become 24hr LFS robots.

Ah! That gives me an idea :D maybe Scawen should not spend anytime on AI programming for drivers and instead develop some AI progammers :nod: Imagine LFS distributed to 1000's of PC's with AI programming modules all programming the next release of LFS while we play LFS :smileypul Hey and if they did this they could also have time to race with us and live normal lives :p I'm sure their girlfriends will like the idea LOL

Have a nice Chistmas and/or holidays all :tilt:

Schooner

15th December 2005, 02:06

I don't care how awful this sounds... but I find it kind of funny how some say "The sex stops once you have a wife" :p Poor Rudi :D
Researchers discovered a food that reduces a womans sex drive by 98%. The food is called "Wedding Cake".

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The devs never promisied anything. They have always told everyone it'll be done when it's done, and not 1 day sooner.

I haven't raced in a while, been busy with other things [a.k.a. life] and as soon as I get a chance, I'll grab a few laps. As soon as I get messages about patches, I'll grab em and be happy.

When it's time to buy S3, I'll buy it and have fun with it, and I'll be happy.

roy.s

15th December 2005, 10:15

BWX232

15th December 2005, 14:11

Researchers discovered a food that reduces a womans sex drive by 98%. The food is called "Wedding Cake".

.

Strange, I just got married last month, abd I get more now than ever!

tpa

15th December 2005, 14:42

Strange, I just got married last month, abd I get more now than ever!

what, cake? :D

BWX232

15th December 2005, 14:50

Haven't eaten cake since the reception.. :thumb:

tristancliffe

15th December 2005, 14:57

He was a proper Christian fellow, so didn't do the business before marriage. Now he is married, he can.

A simple equation proves it.

Before marriage > Total 'times' = 0
After Marriage > Total 'times' = 1

1 > 0, therefore his 'more than ever' statement is correct.

Also, we can use this data to produce a graph of the trend: |
where the x-axis is time, and the y-axis is number of naughty deeds committed.

:D

BWX232

15th December 2005, 15:09

LOL, I am a proper Christan fellow, but I lived in sin for 5 years!

Bob Smith

15th December 2005, 18:34

How wicked of you... get your missus to spank you. ;)

BWX232

15th December 2005, 18:55

I'll do the spanking in this house, thank you very much.

Dethred

17th December 2005, 18:50

While you tools can say "**** off" etc. to this guy the fact remains that he is pretty much right. Granted his ideas are unprovable as far as effectiveness this game is going to lose out big to other competitors.

Heck, the only reason I saw this post was checking the forums for the first time in weeks to see if there has been any kind of update other than language packs (whoopdie doo). I went to Liveforspeed.net a few times lately at around 9-10pm EST and there were between 50-80 players online. There are more people still playing Medal of Honor Allied Assault. Ok, now its your turn to say there are 500+ people playing today, Saturday at the peak time for Europe. Whoopdie Doo.

This game is steadily losing its base, and its taking forever for updates. We are going on 1 year since the original intended Christmas 04' release of S2 (I don't care if that was a mistake and wasn't intended), and the game is still alpha with the only real update being a few bug fixes and a language pack.

Now I am sure most of you fanboys have stopped reading this and clicked the reply button to smash me with your astounding logic. For those that haven't, please don't tell me I am owed anything. I know darn well what I am owed and that is a full version of S2 within a certain time period of alpha release. I honestly am not even anticipating it anymore because waiting is a simple waste.

Again, the game has been on track up until recently, but the lack of progress and fanbase support is going to really hurt this project. Please spare me the "you don't know anything" crap because I was a fan and avid player of the game but its falling short of the newer stuff. By the time S2 is complete the game will be obsolete compared to its newest competitors. Of course we all know that this is a game for purists, but if the devs hope to make a living off of the game I feel for them.

I personally have pretty much given up on the game, and two of my good friends have since stopped playing it all together. I think the point for me was when I bought it and realized there was very little changed and most of it was just visual flare. By this winter I had hoped for a patch to at least update the physics and make the game playable again... and then comes the patch and its bug fixes and a language pack.

I personally, as an avid gamer and racing Sim enthusiast, don't see the direction this game is taking as making any leaps and bounds in sales and/or popularity.

So now bring on the bad mouthing, I'll be sure to unsubscribe from the thread to avoid the impending endless stream of rude remarks from the devs saying they don't owe me anything since I gave them my cash, and the fanboys saying its the greatest game in the world. People like myself have no valid points despite the rapid stalemate of this game's popularity, right?

PS: The devs can say they have the right to work on this game whenever they feel like it, but its going to hurt them in the wallets and the whole project as a whole.

axus

17th December 2005, 19:25

This game is steadily losing its base, and its taking forever for updates. We are going on 1 year since the original intended Christmas 04' release of S2 (I don't care if that was a mistake and wasn't intended), and the game is still alpha with the only real update being a few bug fixes and a language pack.

Wow. "Taking forever for updates?... The devs took a break - 2-3months. I see nothing wrong with that. Then ONE of them did a language update (we don't know what the others are doing). Complaining about the fact that they spent time doing that is stupid. A wake up for you (seems you haven't seen an atlas in your lifetime) - America is not the only country in the world. Your lack of logic is the reason why we get cars like Chrislers coming out with the buttons written in english. You can go and play anything else you want. Us "fanboys" will stick around and in 3 months time (maybe more, maybe less) we will reep the rewards. GT4 was released 36months after its planned release date IIRC and it still is no match for LFS today in terms of physics. Scawen spent ~1 month doing the language stuff - "woopdi doo" - is that such a big deal? Just wait a bit for the next physics update, have some patience and you will be astonished. Oh and by the way... we currently have a perfectly playable LFS - much more so than some silly Juiced or NFS. If you would rather play tabel-of-values-no-real-physics GTR or nK demo or roflFactor or something else then be my guest.

Scawen

17th December 2005, 19:43

Whoopdie doo! :D I'm still laughing, Dethred, hehehe! :)

Thanks for the amusement. :)

Anyway... every time a new sim is coming out, i've read several reports of how it's going to wipe LFS off the face of the Earth. But i've never been at all worried, because i know it takes a long time to get everything right. And i've been right about that each time, because LFS just keeps growing gradually and we get to keep improving it, and LFS still keeps the largest number of racers online for any sim (anyone please correct me if i'm wrong about that). Anyway, i wish all the best for any new sims that come out and i hope they are both realistic and entertaining for many sim racers. But i don't see LFS being wiped out any time soon, specially seeing as we'll bring out some good updates when they are ready, as promised.

_Rob_

17th December 2005, 19:51

Sure, development is taking a long time. Do you see me or any of the others who have been racing since 0.1 or before, complaining...
Imo if you're openly complaining about the time that's being taken, perhaps the development style of LFS isn't one you agree with, however you have no choice but to stick with it, or play something else ;)
Look at it this way, whilst some of the comments in these threads are perhaps useful to the devs, the time taken for Scawen and the others to read through, and reply in these threads, could be used for thinking ideas and doing development work on LFS.
Why not try taking a short break from LFS for a while, play some other games. I can gurantee you'll come back though ;)

axus

17th December 2005, 19:57

Fonnybone

17th December 2005, 19:57

I'm wondering what kind of person only plays ONE game. It's as if
no one would touch LFS because they play another sim. As long as
people like puking out 'facts', here is a FACT for youze, we always come
back to LFS. :thumb: I've played many sims and i've always kept LFS in
a special place. Heck, it has it's own HDD on my PC, always has, not
to mention it's the only 'game' that i have on a few CD-Rs...

As much as i understand, and agree, that LFS isn't 'in' the market, it's
still alive and kicking AND growing after 3+years. It continues growing
bad review or not. It's NOT about the money here, get that in your
thick heads :tilt:

tristancliffe

17th December 2005, 20:20

BWX232

17th December 2005, 20:22

While you tools can say "**** off" etc.=.

For once I was actually trying to take the thread off topic!

BWX232

17th December 2005, 20:27

i think you should marry bwx.:pillepall :really: You are a sicko..

mrbogeyman

17th December 2005, 21:21

and LFS still keeps the largest number of racers online for any sim (anyone please correct me if i'm wrong about that).

wow, if that is true then LFS rocks!!

i know LFS gets blown away in the bigger picture. but whats the point in comparing it to Quake3.....:shrug:

i think it would be cool to see a comparison of stats for ONLINE PC RACING SIMULATORS.

even if it isnt top, but is somewhere near comptetitive then i think that goes to show that the methods and development practices used by the devs are highly effective.

sure it might not sell as many copies as GTR (yet), but for what LFS aims at (online racing) it sounds as though it is right on track.

anyway, like i said, stats would be ace to confirm that...if possible?

Blues

17th December 2005, 22:10

This game is steadily losing its base
No, that is not true, the future belongs to LFS :thumb:

keiran

17th December 2005, 22:58

Mogar

17th December 2005, 23:35

A little back on the topic, I believe that a monthly progress report would calm down some folks here. I personally miss those reports because they give the impression that you are really working on the project, and give us imagination to wonder how the next patch of LFS will be.

I'm not exactly asking for periodic progress reports, but they were cool when we had.

tristancliffe

17th December 2005, 23:42

Agreed Mogar. If Scawen has a window open to write a progress report (be it in Notepad, or Firefox), please DON'T close it until you've finished writing. Dinner/Sex/Kitchen work can wait :D

Mogar

18th December 2005, 00:41

Agreed Mogar. If Scawen has a window open to write a progress report (be it in Notepad, or Firefox), please DON'T close it until you've finished writing. Dinner/Sex/Kitchen work can wait :D

He could post some progress report about his kitchen, since it IS relevant to the LFS progress :D (since the LFS progress depends on the kitchen progress), but for the sex progress report, well, this one I don't think it's necessary... ehheheheheheheh

axus

18th December 2005, 03:46

I would also like a progress report, not necessarily on a timed schedule, just approximately once every 1-2months.

Blowtus

18th December 2005, 05:07

can't you guys just get involved in some leagues or something and quit worrying about progress reports??

Vendetta

18th December 2005, 05:28

Bah, progress report! We just got patch Q. Why do you guys want the devs to give every little detail away? Dont you want surprises?

axus

18th December 2005, 05:47

can't you guys just get involved in some leagues or something and quit worrying about progress reports??

Chill out! I am involved in a league - maybe not quite a league but a race series, just not as official - and I help organize it. All I'm saying is a few sentances every once in a while during a period where there are no patches would be nice to remind us that the devs are still working away on their next masterpiece and it may help in avoiding useless threads such as this where people who are not as involved in the community don't know what is going on and think there won't be any progress for a while.

@Vendetta - some surprises would be nice, yes. I'm not saying they must give everything away.

Hankstar

18th December 2005, 07:41

I think it's safe to assume that the devs are always working on something to do with LFS, seeing as LFS is their occupation and not just some backyard hobby. Just because they're silent for a while I'm not going to get worried that they've stopped. I don't call my friends every five minutes to see if they still like me :D

mrbogeyman

18th December 2005, 15:10

can't you guys just get involved in some leagues or something and quit worrying about progress reports??

agreed!
"gimmie gimmie gimmie, we want more nya nya nya"........stfu! patience brats!
we dont need scawen reality tv........"today scawen picked his nose................then ate it"

"tomorrw scawen will figure out the meaning of life"

"tune in next time when eric will add a panel to the UF1 bumper."

axus

18th December 2005, 15:29

agreed!
"gimmie gimmie gimmie, we want more nya nya nya"........stfu! patience brats!
we dont need scawen reality tv........"today scawen picked his nose................then ate it"

"tomorrw scawen will figure out the meaning of life"

"tune in next time when eric will add a panel to the UF1 bumper."

Grrrrrr.... while we know that the devs are working away on their project and hard at that, many people doubt this... which is why pointless threads like this are becoming more and more common. Wouldn't it just be better if the devs spent ~2min every month or two to let the doubters know otherwise? Just something like:

Hi Racers,

We have been working on physics for the past month. There has been good progress in the area. The aerodynamics bug has been fixed. There is also more grip on the racing line now. The tyre model has been worked on and the low speed grip issues seem to be resolved. We expect to release a new patch soon.

Thanks!

It would cannot possibly take more than 2minutes and it will show all of the people who currently don't believe in LFS that there has been and will be progress.

......or we could have to deal with threads like this every month and have the devs spend ten times as much time reading them and posting in them. Doesn't really bother me because I know we are a few patches away from having LFS light years away from the competition...

Scawen

18th December 2005, 15:53

Regular progress reports are a long requested thing, but unfortunately it doesn't really work that way. It's best to just report when we actually have something interesting to report.

Because progress reports are another of these things that often cause great anger, if the report is about the development of something that some racers aren't waiting for (so our priorities are all wrong) or three weeks have been spent on a new editor function (often perceived as entirely pointless). Or, if we have been experimenting for weeks on something that may or may not be released, then it would be a near fatal mistake to mention it... we know what happens if we say "one day this new feature may possibly be implemented" - then it somehow becomes something we have promised! So we can't ever mention anything unless it's in the almost complete stage.

The only way forward with progress reports, is to make one when we have something interesting to say. Those intermediate things that some people would be interested in, aren't actually very interesting and only cause anger with some other people, due to the apparently slow pace of software development, when viewed by an external observer.

NotAnIllusion

18th December 2005, 16:47

Amen! More racin' less complainin' :D

mrbogeyman

18th December 2005, 18:14

Amen! More racin' less complainin' :D

:thumb:

Dethred

18th December 2005, 18:59

I understand about the progress report and such. I don't think anyone expects even a weekly report, but something once a month or 1.5 months would be nice.

I was finding 150+ racers on at 10pm EST a few months ago on any given weekday, now I am lucky to find 50-80, and 2-3 public servers with enough people to race. During peak Europe times on the weekend I was seeing between 700-900 players online a few months ago. Today is the most I have seen in a while, with 700.

And having 80 players to race against isn't exactly great for variety in servers on a saturday night on the east coast, actually its pretty much impossible to get a decent race going. Right now in peak hours in Europe there are only ~700 players. Even 700 players barely yeilds one decent servers for specific racing needs. I am not sure how rfactor is doing but these upcoming racing sims are probably going to bring down that number again.

Its just hard to keep an interest in the game when all this new stuff is coming out. Maybe its time to start opening up the coding a bit more to allow for mods to keep it interesting in Single Player until S2 final comes out.

AndroidXP

18th December 2005, 19:20

Sucks to be in the US, eh? No, actually, sucks that so few Americans play LFS. Probably all playing Nascar, I guess :scratchch

Okay. Only 700 players. In a racing sim (and not friggin CS). Is not enough for you?! Well damn, then go out and advertise LFS a bit more in your continent. I sure doubt that we have 'only 700' players because a lack of page updates. Sure, there would be a few more, but nowhere being significant.

I have to agree with Scawen, page updates that yield "possible" LFS content would be a bad idea, as the "maybe" would fade away more and more and it would soon become a 100% feature-to-be-implemented fact. The same thing might actually have happend with the rally pack, I fear.

Whatever, what I would like to see would be monthly updates in the forum about future plans, current problems/thoughts, kitchen development, random stuff, theories why Eric isn't posting, new hairstyles of Victor, what porn you looked at yest... err strike that last one :D. I don't necessarily need to hear the newest tidbits about LFS, it's just that the devs are kinda VIPs now, and the general public (read: the LFS fanboys) just need something to read about once in a while. Just enough to keep the "LFS IS DOOMED" rumours down. :thumb:

Hankstar

18th December 2005, 19:47

I think Scawen nailed it with his reply. With some members, if you mention the "wrong" things in a progress report they get all up in arms because they want something else to be worked on. You can't please everyone, especially around here :) I agree that it's best to wait until there's something fairly important before you post a report. Anyway, the more time people spend writing reports, the less they're spending working on LFS. And that's what people want (I presume).

Fonnybone

18th December 2005, 23:55

Its just hard to keep an interest in the game when all this new stuff is coming out. Maybe its time to start opening up the coding a bit more to allow for mods to keep it interesting in Single Player until S2 final comes out.

I'm sorry, but that's your opinion. You can express your opinion, no
problem there. What i don't understand is that 2cents argument turn-
around...."I'm getting bored, therefore, the code should be open". I
just don't see any logic there. Tell me again, what's stopping you guys
from playing LFS because there's a 'new' game out ?!? :shrug:

The devs have mentionned their interest in releasing editors ONCE LFS IS
DONE. When that is, no one knows, but if enough people keep b!tching, it
might be sooner than later hehe ;) Even then, there'll still be whinning for
editor updates and all :D

Rob76

19th December 2005, 02:44

I'm a sucker who buys pretty much every race sim going. Before LFS came along GPL and the various NASCAR releases were the only sims I raced regularly and I thought Papyrus were gods. I had Indy 500, Indycar I & II, F1GP, GP2 and GP3, various Ubisoft efforts and various EA efforts (F1 1999-2001 and F1C). All had their moments but eventually fell by the wayside. I even had Spirit of Speed 1937 :pillepall, which was absolutely terrible.

LFS was the first sim to have lasting power, mainly due to the great online racing, great community and the ongoing efforts of the devs. Since LFS I've tried GTR, rFactor and now GTL. GTR and rFactor are pretty much forgotten (I still keep an occasional eye out for the rFactor mod that'll bring me to fire it back up), and although rFactor improved on GTR's rather poor online experience it was still way behind LFS. As to rFactor's long term threat to LFS, I think LFS will outlast it. For many rFactor's biggest strength is it's openness to modding, but the huge variety of mods that will appear will actually spread the online racers more thinly. The clunky method of mod switching within rFactor doesn't help matters either. In contrast, the tightly controlled content of LFS means the community is much more close-nit.

GTL is still taking up some of my time (the classic GT cars are keeping me interested) but its physics (despite claims in this thread to their superiority) just don't, after extended play, feel as comprehensive as LFS. Yes LFS as it currently stands has room for improvement, but it's being developed and they will improve. Beyond a few bug fix patches, GTL is what it is, with no hope of improvement. Also the sounds in GTL are on the surface very nice, but it's amazing (when I fire LFS back up) how communicative the methods employed in LFS are compared to GTL.

I for one hope the devs keep enjoying what they're doing, the way they are doing it. As long as they do, and the development continues, I think LFS will outlive many of the current and future sims. I'll probably never learn, and will continue to buy whatever sims are released but LFS will be the sim I come back to once I'm bored of them.

I may have thought Papyrus were gods, but I have since seen the light. Scawen and co are the true racing sim gods.....:nod:

boosterfire

19th December 2005, 05:22

@ 23:53 17th December 2005
Players online
LFS - 425
Servers - 325
rFactor - 21
Servers - 41

LFS stats taken from LFS.net and LFSW.net
rF stats taken from racecast

I think it shows LFS isn't in trouble. Considering rFactor was supposed to be massive.

Keiran

That doesn't mean anything. If you'd play LFS when it's evening and begin of the night in America (like 9PM EST), you wouln't find more than 20 servers with people on it, and not more than 40 people playing. It is alot about what time it is and where the game is more popular. :shrug:

@Scawen: I fully understand that it is normal to only write a progress report when there is something to update directly in the game, as you wouldn't do progress report that says that you've been testing things all month, but we don't have anything to give yet.

Maybe the solution to calm the LFS-frustrated players is to say what you are doing, even if it's not clear. For example, I think we all know you are taking a break and thinking of the physics, but we don't know really what is going on. A good remedy to that would be to say when you start programming something and what it is, even if it's a test or something hypothetic. Also, it's good to know what YOU are doing, but it'd be very nice to know what Erik is doing as well.

I'd also add something that I think personally. I know it won't change anything if I say something, but it's my opinion. I think we all agree that there are angry or unhappy persons about what is going on in LFS currently. There is a great remedy to that: fast patch. You've done it before, maybe without doing it. The patch that I'm talking about is the patch where Skidmarks were added. This was marvelous and everybody stopped complaining at that time, which is what you want! So, if I'd be you, I'd do things like that, that, hopefully, don't take too much time. For example, if you ask to Erik to design a new interior for the FZR (:scratchch ), this can be surelly done before the physics are done, and could be a small patch, with only that in it, and would make people happier.

Simple opinion. :x

speedfreak227

19th December 2005, 06:13

i remember when the mrt5 came out in its own little patch, it was like the game was brand new! mostly because it was the first car on slicks. but still, couldn't a new car be introduced every 4-8 weeks?

pardon my ignorance if this is an overly complicated request. when i had to take computer programming at university i couldn't even make a random number generator without help. :pillepall

speedfreak227

AndroidXP

19th December 2005, 07:25

every 4-8 weeksMore like 2-4 months, if everything goes well.
But your ignorance shall be forgiven ;)

Remember, you not only have to model the car, you also have to create all the physics settings for suspension, engine, etc. Then you have to test the car for eventual bugs, and if you create car classes, you have to test them if they're reasonably equal. But this testing cannot be done alone, or even with just three players. You have to get skilled drivers from the community and let them exploit the hell out of the cars, just to see the most obvious imbalances. And in the end, only the community can make the final test of balance (*cough* FZR *cough*).

B2B@300

19th December 2005, 09:40

Simple opinion. :x

How would that work :really: no one seems to listen to what Scawen says as it is now or at least they twist it to what they want too hear rather than what he is actually saying :shrug: what your suggesting is a structure not much different to what they initially escaped from :shy:

Anyway from where I stand there pretty much isn't a week that goes by where I don't know what he is doing... he almost always leaves some clue to what he is doing in various threads around the forum :scratchch it's just most are too impaitent :tilt: and don't seem to comprehend just how long it takes to do some things :schwitz:

I think we should be more like NotAnIllusion said "More racin' less complainin' " :razz:

colcob

19th December 2005, 13:00

Just trying to be objective about racer numbers, Looking at the LFSworld graphs, over the last six months LFS has had a pretty consistent peak number of about 350-400 licensed drivers online and also 350-400 demo racers online. Licensed users have been falling off very slowly over that time but demo numbers have remained consistent.
I cant access history graphs for racecast but the graph they show for the last 24 hours indicates a peak number of just over 200 racers. Obviously they have no demo racers, and it's also possible that they count racers differently, or even that its possible to race rFactor online without appearing on RaceCast, I dont know.
But certainly there is nothing to indicate that rFactor is ahead of LFS just yet. Although to be fair, rFactor is fairly new to the market and may take a while to grow.

jtr99

19th December 2005, 13:32

I may have thought Papyrus were gods, but I have since seen the light.

Well said, Rob. My racing bio is very similar to yours and I know exactly what you mean.

boosterfire

19th December 2005, 17:21

That's all true, and this is where LFS is the best, and where nobody complains: LFS is fully multiplayer-friendly. :D

Nick_ll

19th December 2005, 20:51

what your suggesting is a structure not much different to what they initially escaped from :shy:

I absolutely don't see where he suggests anything as such. What the devs escaped is the big money standard game production business model where you get a bunch of 40 people working on a game with financing for the time allowed to produce the game (which is why there is a deadline).

What Boost suggests is essentially to make small patches of one feature alone (no matter how small that feature may be) just to calm the unhappy part of the community down. And if you ask me it sort of makes sense cause it would most likely calm down people who want new stuff quicker.

bbman

19th December 2005, 21:06

What Boost suggests is essentially to make small patches of one feature alone (no matter how small that feature may be) just to calm the unhappy part of the community down. And if you ask me it sort of makes sense cause it would most likely calm down people who want new stuff quicker.
... who are back in no time screaming that it contains bugs or they don't like the package anyway... :shrug:

Nick_ll

19th December 2005, 21:09

... who are back in no time screaming that it contains bugs or they don't like the package anyway... :shrug:
....which happens anyways even with bigger patches.....

Bob Smith

19th December 2005, 21:32

Better to have one big physics change that makes us go "wow, cool, thanks Scawen + co", rather than lots of small ones that slowly fix the problems, but we don't notice the end affect as much and with lots of hassle along with way.

afastest

19th December 2005, 21:49

B2B@300

20th December 2005, 03:34

I absolutely don't see where he suggests anything as such. What the devs escaped is the big money standard game production business model where you get a bunch of 40 people working on a game with financing for the time allowed to produce the game (which is why there is a deadline).

What Boost suggests is essentially to make small patches of one feature alone (no matter how small that feature may be) just to calm the unhappy part of the community down. And if you ask me it sort of makes sense cause it would most likely calm down people who want new stuff quicker.

Your free to disagree :D but I guess we all interpret things differently :scratchch so discussion is always a good thing :thumb:

My comments weren’t aimed at Boostfire specifically...

Unfortunately while the suggestion Boostfire and others make is made with good intentions I see it leading to segments of the community expecting and putting pressure on the developers to go in certain directions, it's just the nature of the beast :razz: ... which probably does nothing but dampen their enthusiasm for the tuff job that they have already undertaken and it would definitely lead them away from their stated goals of The design decisions and direction are led by interest, our ideas and experiments and also influenced a lot by requests and ideas from the community. and what I was originally alluding to is that if that happens it would be no different than working in a large corporation, because they would then have to do things based on other considerations other than "what they find interesting at the time" wether the "other considerations" is financial or people demanding a fix in a certain time frame for a certain problem :shrug:

Anyway there's a saying :D goes something like this "You can't please all of the people all of the time!, at best you'll only please some of the people most of the time..." so I think it would be a huge waste of energy to constently seek out the unhappy segments and try and keep them happy - it's better that they just pursue their goals and dreams for the sim and those that like it and believe in it will remain some will not remain though and that would happen regardless of what they do :smileypul

Tinytacohead

20th December 2005, 06:02

Well I read 3 pages of this thread and it's done two things for me.. annoy the crap out of me, and give me an even deeper respect for the game and its 3 developers, haha. As soon as money allows I'll go ahead and buy my S2 license. I haven't been around long, but am already one of many here who think this is the best racing simulator available, on any platform. Two :thumb: to everybody involved, keep up the good work guys. You know exactly what you're doing. :)

Mogar

20th December 2005, 15:03

Since this looks like "the complaining thread", I will do mine...

What is making me loose interest on LFS is that each day, more and more physics bugs are being exploited in order to do fast laps.

I noticed that some WR laps are done with locked differential. This wasn't new with FWD cars, but now some are using even on RWD cars. I'm still going to see ANY real car with locked differential on track, even for qualify. It just doesn't make sense, but it's more effective on LFS.

The aero bug was already making me avoid driving the downforce cars, then the fixed diferential on FWD even on races, and now fixed diferential on RWD ? And not only XRT, but the I've already seen VERY fast setup for XRR with locked diferential.

AndroidXP

20th December 2005, 15:55

Ehm, this is nothing new so to say. These problems are well known and they'll probably be worked on in January. Besides that, no that is not "the complaining thread".

Nick_ll

20th December 2005, 18:45

Your free to disagree :D but I guess we all interpret things differently :scratchch so discussion is always a good thing :thumb:

Yeah the difference is that YOU interpreted something he didn't write, whereas Boosterfire's room is approximately 2 meters away from mine and I can talk to him in person if I want. So you can interpret as much as you wish (which is done plenty in this forum, even with clear posts from devs), but I was just telling you what Boost actually was saying (and what he explained in person).

Ah it looks like this thread is informative :)
I didn't know about a "differential bug".

Dethred

20th December 2005, 19:10

I'm sorry, but that's your opinion. You can express your opinion, no
problem there. What i don't understand is that 2cents argument turn-
around...."I'm getting bored, therefore, the code should be open". I
just don't see any logic there. Tell me again, what's stopping you guys
from playing LFS because there's a 'new' game out ?!? :shrug:

The devs have mentionned their interest in releasing editors ONCE LFS IS
DONE. When that is, no one knows, but if enough people keep b!tching, it
might be sooner than later hehe ;) Even then, there'll still be whinning for
editor updates and all :D

You're right its my opinion, and its borderline insulting for you to state it like I don't know.:pillepall Whats stopping us? Maybe the AI that don't pit, and the lack of online players at 8pm on the east coast of the U.S. (don't you dare try and say that's not the devs fault, I already know that, just suggesting some minor updates to make more people get back online)? Maybe also the physics frustrate me after a few laps?

Maybe some open source code could allow someone to at least make the AI pit, or the tires accurate. THAT, is NOT an opinion. I think the problem here is That the game is barely playable for many of us (physics, Single Player, etc). I mean I'd at least play single player a lot if the AI was fixed.) My biggest peave is that I was at least waiting for AI fixes and a physics fix, and almost 6 months after release and 1 year after the first announced release date there has been minor bug fixes and a language pack. To myself, and especially those on the east and west coast getting home from work at 7-8pm, there is no more online play and no single player worth mentioning. To us the game is seriously dying.

GP4Flo

20th December 2005, 19:13

Vendetta

20th December 2005, 19:22

goddamit stop asking for progress reports! You dont see other game makers releasing progress reports as much as the devs do you?

Tinytacohead

20th December 2005, 19:23

unsubscribing myself from a thread for the first time. :razz:

Dethred

20th December 2005, 21:00

LFS is not open source, why arguing about it? Asking Scawen to release the source code of LFS is like asking Microsoft to release the source code of Windows.

There are already some open source "simulations" out there, so why don't you play and improve them?

I have an idea, why don't you not reply to anything I say anymore. Thanks. And I won't go and improve those games because they are FREE, There seems to be this big misunderstanding among you fanboys, that nothing is owed to people who pay money for this game. If I get my ~$40 back I'll not complain a bit.

Dethred

20th December 2005, 21:02

goddamit stop asking for progress reports! You dont see other game makers releasing progress reports as much as the devs do you?

Thats because other games ARE COMPLETE. Jesus Christ. You guys are starting to wear this out. When I bought a game that was promised, and I can't even play single player because the opponents run out of fuel I am certainly entitled to complain about it. If you don't like it then feel free to NOT REPLY. Thanks.

Dethred

20th December 2005, 21:03

PS: What is this nonsense on the liveforspeed.net webpage about 500+ people online, and there are only 44 players in open public servers?

STROBE

20th December 2005, 21:15

the game is barely playable for many of us (physics...)
Woah.

As Scawen would be the first to admit and many people will readily point out, LFS' physics are not perfect - they are flawed. I'm no expert driver, yet even I can feel when something goes wrong. Like trying to get round a hairpin without drifting the back end. Like trying to closely follow another GTR car around Westhill without running clean out of aero effect. Like being overtaken by a car with a stiffly-sprung nose pointing at the sky. Yeah, the flaws in the physics can be quite conspicuous at times.

To date, I've covered almost 9500 miles in LFS, most of that in S2, and most of it in the GTR cars. Not once have I encountered a single anomaly, freak physics calculation on my car (except collisions, but the general idea of the game is to avoid those...), or terminal failure of the physics engine that would render it "barely playable".

Of course it's just your opinion that it's "barely playable", which you're entitled to. Just as I'm entitled to my opinion that you're making massive generalisations and exaggerations in the hope that someone will acquiesce to your demands.

As for not having anyone to race with when you get home from work at 8pm (~1am GMT), then maybe you should quit your job, then you could race at the peak LFS times. I'm not being facetious, it's simply as sensible a suggestion as turning parts of Scawen, Eric and Victor's source of income into an open source software. I'd love development to be faster too, the aero limitations in particular I find quite annoying at times. But hey, guess what? Me whinging about it isn't going to make them work miracles, so in the meantime I'll enjoy what we've got so far, try and drive around the flaws when they occur, and not harass them when they've already given some idea of what's in store.

AndroidXP

20th December 2005, 21:23

PS: What is this nonsense on the liveforspeed.net webpage about 500+ people online, and there are only 44 players in open public servers?
And? I just opened the calculator and did a full refresh on the serverlist. With all filters off (except "empty" of course) I counted 226 people. Then I went to LFSW and opened the "Racers & Hosts online" thingy. Then I roughly counted the people showed there and came to 224, which was close enough to be accurate. Now take the 3 S1 racers and the 298 demo players, and ZING we have 527, very close to what is displayed on the main page.

E:
When I bought a game that was promised, and I can't even play single player because the opponents run out of fuel I am certainly entitled to complain about it.Oh god, this is so stupid it hurts. You prepaid for a not yet released version of an ONLINE racing simulator. We're lucky that we've got the ALPHA version to play with, till the full version is released. Oh Em Geee, how can someone dare to have some bugs in an UNFINISHED ALPHA version of a product?

Arrgh, I cut it. Have to go with Scawen here: If you don't like LFS, then go and play any of the other sims out there. Come back when the patch was released but stop cluttering the forums with such idiotic "discussion" which is nothing other than beating a dead horse.

Blues

20th December 2005, 21:31

My biggest peave is that I was at least waiting for AI fixes and a physics fix,
They will come...so just relax!

You will not get things fixed faster, just because you complain.

We all want better physics, AI, whatever, and we will get that...so just relax, or play another game until a big patch is out...as you don't seem to like this LFS-version.

tristancliffe

20th December 2005, 22:03

Thats because other games ARE COMPLETE. Jesus Christ. You guys are starting to wear this out. When I bought a game that was promised, and I can't even play single player because the opponents run out of fuel I am certainly entitled to complain about it. If you don't like it then feel free to NOT REPLY. Thanks.

You paid for S2. S2 isn't out yet. We are lucky that Scawen saw fit to allow us to be alpha testers. No one has actually recieved what they paid for. We all knew what LFS was about when we paid our monies, so we cannot complain.

And you paid for an Online Racing Simulator, so it seems a little childish to cry that the offline bit isn't or hasn't been concentrated on for the Alpha.

I didn't see many people complain about the rFactor Multiplayer test demo being naff offline.

Nitemare

20th December 2005, 22:05

And I won't go and improve those games because they are FREE, There seems to be this big misunderstanding among you fanboys, that nothing is owed to people who pay money for this game. If I get my ~$40 back I'll not complain a bit....
2.1 Your payment will grant you the license to play the Live for Speed S1 or S2 release only, depending on the type of license purchased.That means, payment allows you to play Live for Speed S2 in it's current state...
I don't see any statement here saying that paying license will also give you right to demand patches for anything you think is a bug... and that the progammer must obey, because of course you know much better than him what is wrong with physics, and how long it will take to fix it..

You played the demo, so you knew what bugs are there, and what you can expect in full version, so you can't say that you've been scammed...

..and releasing LFS as open source? ROFL... I can already tell you what would happen.. there will suddenly be numerous versions of LFS, each will have something in physics fixed, some old bugs repaired, some new added, some will even allow custom cars, and none of them will be compatible with each other... number of cheats and exploits will increase tenfold... and newest isi games will miraculously gain a better feel for the car...