Are the FWD cars Faster than the RWD?

[Savage Tactical]

I have noticed that the XFG is faster (for me) than the XRG, and that the WR for the FXO is faster that the XRT's WR. Being an autoxer and engineer graduate, I know that for the same weight/suspension geometry/power that just isn't the case. In fact, they should be much slower considering they have equal power to weight ratios. I know that in SCCA Solo 2, that my miata is classed higher that a RSX-S and a Celica GTS, even though those cars have between 50-70 more horsepower.

[majik]

Well first off the Miata has supperior handling to those car. Especially at autoX. The miata is smaller and transitions better. However in the game for me the reason I am faster in the FWD cars is simple confidence. I can romp on the throttle and if the car starts to understeer a slight lift pulls it back in line. My lap or race is still intact. In the rwd cars, I am very scared of the rear end stepping out so I take it easy on the gas. If you spin your lap or race can be ruined. I am very new to this game and I am still getting the hang of the signs of the rear stepping out. When I autoX it is very easy to tell and drifts are easily corrected (or continued, which ever you prefer :-))

[Gabkicks]

the fxo is lighter and more powerfull if i remember correctly. it also has wider tires and i dont remember what chasis/geometrical advantages it has. i also think the xfg is a bit more powerfull... or lighter or something.

[axus]

XFG has a slightly higher power to weigh ratio than the XRG... If set up properly, it handles really well too. The same goes for the FXO compared to the XRT and RB4.

[skiingman]

I know that for the same weight/suspension geometry/power that just isn't the case.

Uh huh.

In fact, they should be much slower considering they have equal power to weight ratios. I know that in SCCA Solo 2, that my miata is classed higher that a RSX-S and a Celica GTS, even though those cars have between 50-70 more horsepower.
So what don't you get? RSX/Celica certainly are nowhere near the weight of a Miata, and also have inferior suspension designs.

Also, last I checked, the RWD cars are faster if you can drive them. The fastest hotlops may be faster for the XFG, but those are all on exploited setups.

[Gabkicks]

integra type r dc5 > mazda rx-8.:shrug:

[skiingman]

integra type r dc5 > mazda rx-8.:shrug:
That ITR weighs what, 800lbs less than an rx8?

[Blowtus]

is a thread of flame wars over such and such car is better than such and such car, really going to get us anywhere?
fwd is inherantly deficient in a racing scenario. *but* the xfg and fxo are both signifigantly lighter than their rwd counterparts, and have a better power to weight ratio.

[Flotch]

the only reason that makes FWD faster than the RWD of their class is "big bugs in the physics". I'm sure when S2 will be full, there will be not too much difference :pillepall, so wait :thumb:.
Now, FWD have a slight oversteer on throttle if you set them right ;) ok? do you see the problem? ;)

[B2B@300]

Well my old man used too race speedway here in Australia in the 70's and he raced in a Mini Cooper S obviously worked :shy: against competitors racing in six cylinder fuel injected Holden Torana (light car powerfull motor RWD) and many types of RWD V8's with large fats :tilt: and on most tracks exept the ovels with long straights he used to wip there asses :D so it is possible for FWD cars to be fast even in real life :x he just was able to use the power he had available to the max where his competitors couldn't :smileypul it did take certain skill to drive in that manner though, this became obvious when he sold the car, because the next several owner's couldn't repeat the feat :razz:

But having said that I think we probably have the luxury of infinite setup peramaters in alot of areas we just wouldn't in real life for similar categories.. I don't think it's buggy physics as much as it's a confidence difference between FWD and RWD as Majik said.. I find in FWD cars in LFS you can overdrive without much consequence where the RWD if you overdirve them it punishes you more... I actually believe the physics are pretty close to spot on except where the tyres are in a state of skidding... I personally believe that this is due to it being very dificult to simulate the hystereis nature of rubber and friction at a molecular level as it slides accross the road surface and interacts with it (i.e. it would need a supercomputer :p) and therefore has to be approximated somehow... but I'm no physics expert so could be totally wrong in that assumtion :nod: but thats another thread anyway :Looking_a

One thing I do notice on graphed data curves representing the coeficient of friction that real data shows high frequencey oscilations at the curve extremities where all computer simulated curves I've seen so far are rather smooth approximations of these curves

[ajp71]

I think it's down to the setups, no road car is set so that it is fundamentally unstable under braking, although it's still the fastest way to get it round a track. I think a fixed setup option and even a server option to limit certain settings to sensible variables are absolutley essential. Also remember LFS doesn't simulate chassis stiffness, not sure how relevant it is in this case but in the Minis there is absolutley no way an open topped Mini will be faster than a normal one, total number of racing open topped minis? - 0

[Sunday Driver]

Well, I'm not graduated in physics but in the manual of an other racing game a played once it was told that FWD cars are easier to control and you can easily keep a higher speed in curves, but the RWD cars have a significant better acceleration out of the curves. Even after buying several horse power increasing items, I was still too slow in my FWD out of the curves in order to take over the RWD on the straight.

If you accelerate, your weight moves partly to the back. So you have more weight and more traction on the rear tyres. That's the reason why RWD cars should accelerate faster out of a curves as a FWD car, even if its horse power to weight ratio is somewhat weaker.

I play very often with XRT against FXO drivers. I'm not a very good driver, but right after the start the XRT is really better than the FXO. But I'm too slow or the FXOs drivers are too fast in corners, so I can't make advantage of the XRT better acceleration. Well, I'm not he greatest driver anyway, so this should be tested by a driver who can handle the XRT and the FXO better than me.

[Hallen]

The problem (if it really is a problem) that I see now between the XRG and the XFG is that the advantage on the straights that the XRG had before is mostly gone. It used to have almost a 5mph advantage down the BL1 back straight. It also accelerated faster. That is pretty much gone too. The XFG handles better in the corners. Its lighter weight allows it to grip better so you can carry more speed (which was also the case in S1).

The difference in the top hotlap times is what, almost two seconds? That tells me that it is not just the inability of some drivers to drive rwd cars. If the hotlap aliens can't milk more speed out of the XRG as compared to the XFG, then there is probably a performance difference between the two cars.:nod:

[Rumiko]

It's the same with RB4 vs FXO and FXR vs FZR. No matter how good the driver is, a 4WD can't beat the other two cars, which are suppose to be the same class.

People who say the cars have equal chance on track obviously haven't driven in real competition.

[Gabkicks]

the wr hotlap times do all teh talking.:shrug:

[Sunday Driver]

I agree to Hallen. Unfortunatly I haven't played S1. But if the XRG has even on the very long straight of BLackwood no siginificant advantage resulting out of his better acceleration and top speed, he has almost nothing on passages and tracks with only medium and small straigths.

[Fetzo]

the fxo is that fast because it's power/weight ratio is the best. its too light.

[cannonfodder]

The GT used to be a second or two faster than the Gti, at least in BL GP. At some point, I don't remember when, the Gti's power was bumped up a bit to make it more competitive with the GT. Apparently it was a little too much, and now the situation is reversed.

[B2B@300]

I've since read in these forums (can't remember who said it and too lazy to look up now :p) and also from RL sources that FWD cars shouldn't exhibit oversteer characteristics under acceleration out of corners... and thats exactly what you can set the XF GTi up to be like :shrug: I also remembered more to the story about my old man and racing the mini which makes perfect sense now :smileypul when he sold it the next several owners were not able to come to terms with the exit from corners and the massive understeer at full power! (raced with slicks on hard "bituman like" dirt surfaces) They would end up just driving the damn thing straight up the bank of the speedway track :D and I also remember my old man stating (he owns LFS S2 also but doesn't race online :( ) that the FWD cars don't behave like he thought they should... he's reason was that with the mini his techneque in getting around the speedway fast was a fast entry into the corner, a couple blips of the throttle and at the same time tucking the nose into the corner, expecting and allowing for understeer on exit and flooring it out of the corner, so in effect he was on full power more than he's RWD competitors... He didn't feel these characteristics of FWD cars where exhibited well in LFS :shrug: (I say this without bias as FWD cars are what I drive most in LFS, I know, I know there girls cars :razz: )
So in conclusion I think at the moment the FWD have it too easy on the exit of corners where it should be at a disadvatage to the XR GT... if that was solved the power issues would be irrelevent imho
P.s. corner exit speed affects end of straight speed also so that balance will change back to the GT's favour to I think ;)

[Blowtus]

did your old man's mini have a locked dif and large anti roll bar at the rear?

[B2B@300]

did your old man's mini have a locked dif and large anti roll bar at the rear?

Hm definately not locked diff :D what nutter would use a locked diff in RL and as for the large antiroll bar I couldn't say (will ask him though) but I'm pretty sure you get the oversteer characteristic on full power corner exit even without those settings...

Just remembered to talk to my old man about his mini setup :x It was setup with 10" slicks and many suspenion mods for camber and caster as well as stabalizer bars, so he did infact have a stabilizer bar at the rear. What I forgot to ask him was about the diff setup :( will ask him next time :D...

[boosterfire]

the wr hotlap times do all teh talking.:shrug:

I just can't agree with that! Come on! IF the hotlaps could do all the talking, the physics would have to be PERFECT, which they aren't. :pillepall

[Blowtus]

I didn't think you got the effect with anything less than a locked diff, but am unsure. I'm not convinced you'd get that effect in real life either mind you. Would be interested to see. I have a vague suspicion in lfs it would come down to the same problem as the rwd's, just reversed, because the driven wheels are pointing into the corner, rather than out of.

[Hatemaker]

In my oppinion, it really depends on the car as to wether or not one is faster than the other, as well as the driver. I'm faster with the XF GTi than I am with the XR GT. But, on the other hand, I'm faster with the XR GT Turbo than I am with the FXO.

[B2B@300]

I have a vague suspicion in lfs it would come down to the same problem as the rwd's, just reversed, because the driven wheels are pointing into the corner, rather than out of.

And that is exactly what I'm thinking ;) and I'm pretty sure it is exhibited in the GTi with most types of setup's even in S1 it would do that before locked diff's and large rear ARB's were popular :scratchch although the ARB setting and locked diff probably amplify the tendency...

[Gabkicks]

I just can't agree with that! Come on! IF the hotlaps could do all the talking, the physics would have to be PERFECT, which they aren't. :pillepall

i dont understand, i was just pointing out that the xfg and fxo are the fastest in their classes.:pillepall

btw, i have a video of a mini with a 150hp honda civic engine oversteering alot when attacking corners on the nurburgring.

[JTbo]

FWD always need to share steering and braking/accelerating grip, that makes also difference, but skilled driver knows how to minimize this effect, as you know you can throw tail around corner in RWD and you can do same with FWD it is just bit different.

One trick is to keep little pressure on brakes, so you are helping rear to come bit side and use engine power to pull car straight at exit.

I'm not sure If I remember correctly but mini was one car that could do this rather easily with mostly throttle control.

Brakes can also be used as ghetto traction control, so when exiting corner you can get boost and with brake you keep front wheel still gripping.

There is actually quite many techiques to play with.

I'm not saying which one is faster than other, I only say that both FWD and RWD has own tricks and both can be much faster than 99% of us can handle them.

I saw a bug too, but then I smashed it with my Maglite, no more bug :D

[Gunn]

I'm not sure If I remember correctly but mini was one car that could do this rather easily with mostly throttle control. The Mini, though, is a bit of a special case since it has very small wheels and a small wheelbase and weighs nothing much at all. Quite easy to throw those little roller skates around ;)

[JTbo]

The Mini, though, is a bit of a special case since it has very small wheels and a small wheelbase and weighs nothing much at all. Quite easy to throw those little roller skates around ;)

I remember some historical dokument that has story how when they 1st showed mini to press they drove around, did 180-turns and 360's, then all reporters would like to test these incredible little cars that handled so well, I think that there was mention that several of these demo cars were wrecked by journalist that tryed so hard to make those 180-degree turns.

Suspension is also quite different from other cars, there was these rubber springs, were those cone shaped, anyway no metal springs at all, so that made cars also handle like go cart or something.

Too bad my memory is so bad already, only very faint images from that dokument are what I remember :(

Hey, I'm not completely senile yet, http://www.minisport.com/classic-mini-shop/products/suspension/suspension-components/standard-suspension-parts/standard-rubber-cones-product.html
There is rubber cones instead of metal springs in Mini ;)

[ChuckDeez]

i think RWD is still better.

[Vegetal]

Well, as of now, the XF and FXO are a lot lighter, have better power to weight ratios, better transmission efficiency (which makes sense), and in the case of the FXO, fatter tires.

So, in a track in LFS they are faster, probably because of those weird locked diff effects and such.......

But hey, you are an autoxer, in autox the RWDs are generally faster (in LFS) :thumbsup:

[der butz]

i think RWD is still better.
what a crappy comment :pillepall

Now anyway, I'm driving a Mini and I still try to get the LFS-frontwheelers to handle like my little road sticking racing lemon... all 4 wheels pushing to the outside in corners, brake--->slight oversteer, gas--->slight understeer. Nothing more predictable than this car. and if you want to oversteer more just corner faster, then one wheel lifts and the little bum turns you where you want to go, without using rear stab (how could you??) or diff lock.
I once tried to setup the gti like my mini, it was just horrible, but I just think that without the...hmmm... how do you call the "popometer" butt-meter??... you'll never get the same driving sensation.

[Fonnybone]

The Mini, though, is a bit of a special case since it has very small wheels and a small wheelbase and weighs nothing much at all. Quite easy to throw those little roller skates around ;)


Indeed! I was just gonna mention something like this. The Mini practicly
invented FWD packaging and every freaking FWD car today descends in a
way or another from it. It also made a name precisely because of it's good
handling ! It beat soooo many cars in it's days, it became a legend.
This is perhaps the worse example to use as a 'generic FWD' , it
still outhandles most modern cars to this day. In a way, it's like the Miata,
you just don't expect these cars to perform THAT well, but they do !!
They litteraly run circles around competitors and 'better' cars.

That said, there are some physics bugs here and there making BOTH FWD
and RWD act a bit differently in certain conditions as you'd expect them
to from experience in real cars. Recovery from a slide in FWD and
accelerating out of corners with RWD, to name only 2. Apart from the
specification differences, i think it's much easier and takes less time to
push any FWD at it's limits in LFS whereas RWD cars don't forgive as
much. Spinning out at a corner's exit often means losing the race,
whereas some small understeer mid-corner can often be corrected and
will only make the car not turn at all if your a bonified n00b. In any case,
you still stand a better chance in the FWD than any LFS RWD cars ;)

[Sp3cTr3]

I blame the tire modeling. I get better traction at optimal tire temp. with hybrid tires on the XRG than I do with normal tires??

Now that doesnt make sense to me, as the normal tires are road tires and hybrid tires are made for rallying on both gravel and tarmac, and there fore the threads are larger on the hybrids?

Ive driven 200hp RWD cars and none of them have been as slippery and tail happy as the RWD cars in LFS. I dont think the tire model is fully developed yet.

Where at alpha stage so a lot of things can change before S2 final :thumb:

[geeman1]

I blame the tire modeling. I get better traction at optimal tire temp. with hybrid tires on the XRG than I do with normal tires??

Now that doesnt make sense to me, as the normal tires are road tires and hybrid tires are made for rallying on both gravel and tarmac, and there fore the threads are larger on the hybrids?
Well, someone once said that hybrid tyres are like that in real life too. They have lots of grip, but they burn out fast on asphalt (driving on the dirt cools them down).
Only thing wrong with this is that hybrid tyres are race tyres and road normals aren't. That makes hybrids so good. But then again you really can't use hybrid tyres in "real races" which last longer than 5 laps :tilt: