MAJOR disappointment.

[Bodhidharmazen]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion. :tilt:

[XCNuse]

LFS has the word simulation in it... why should there be any "arcade" about it? lol

[sosna]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle".

No thanks, I like to test mysefl DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion. :tilt:

as pointed out by u a coin has 2 sides!and u can see-use the one u like!:thumb:

[Krammeh]

Its a simulator, if you want a game, go out and buy TDU.

Also, you dont have to be gentle with it, just dont leave the clutch half way down and have full gas on.

[eimer_]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35666

enjoy :D

[Gizz]

Also, you dont have to be gentle with it, just dont leave the clutch half way down and have full gas on.

ooohh common!!!! you carnt expect him to take all this in in one go!!! one step at a time! :D

[Bodhidharmazen]

ooohh common!!!! you carnt expect him to take all this in in one go!!! one step at a time! :D

I have a Logitech Momo, I don't have a clutch. And maybe he carnt expeact itt, beucaouse wi dount knou whatys tthat wourd :D

Its a simulator, if you want a game, go out and buy TDU.

Also, you dont have to be gentle with it, just dont leave the clutch half way down and have full gas on.

Of course it is a simulator. But you are not in the camp of the ones who believe it is REALLY simulating, right? All LFS does is EMULATE some (selected) physical variables and give us some of the feelings actual drivers have. It is FAR AWAY from being complete (as you all know).

Now, it is also a GAME, and if it is not a game, then I want something that doesn't exist. All the REALISM you want in the physical model, but WITHOUT the need to be a mechanic nor deal with tyres or clutch heat. In other words, having a place to ENJOY THE DRIVING WITHOUT THE LIMITATIONS OF REALITY.

Maybe Im the only one who would be happy with it, that might be true.

LFS has the word simulation in it... why should there be any "arcade" about it? lol

I do not mean "arcade" like in NFS or stuff like that, did you read what I wrote? I cleared it up in my last post, just in case :thumb:

What I like is to drive, it would be nice to drive without "reality" limitations. It would be nice to have a SIMULATION (to use the word most of you love) that were fantastic with physics leaving us the responsability to be fantastic with our driving skills.

If you want a simulation, why don't you all ask for people actually driving to the track, getting down of your cars to walk to the track, then go to your pit and look for the keys of your car while and put some gas in it? That would be a simulation :razz:

[XCNuse]

If you want a simulation, why don't you all ask for people actually driving to the track, getting down of your cars to walk to the track, then go to your pit and look for the keys of your car while and put some gas in it? That would be a simulation :razz:
Because... This is why we play LFS :)

Or for the obvious reasons; expenses, time, .. expenses.. time.. etc. :nod:

[JTbo]

Well, now it is bit closer to driving, still misses a lot like radiator failures, engine damage because of that, limited setups and such, but getting closer to driving all time.

What you seem to want is that you would like to play game, not drive and race in simulation, that is fine, but as LFS goal is to be realistic simulation that won't be possible in future, I'm afraid.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Play S1. :shrug:

[Herbz]

MAYOR disappointment.

I don't have a Mayor where I live, so I can't really comment, however I'm quite happy with my Local Member...:sadbanana

[Bodhidharmazen]

Because... This is why we play LFS :)

Or for the obvious reasons; expenses, time, .. expenses.. time.. etc. :nod:

Well, obviously, in that sense, what I ask is not insane.

Well, now it is bit closer to driving, still misses a lot like radiator failures, engine damage because of that, limited setups and such, but getting closer to driving all time.

What you seem to want is that you would like to play game, not drive and race in simulation, that is fine, but as LFS goal is to be realistic simulation that won't be possible in future, I'm afraid.


I'm disappointed by people not reading all my argument. I WANT TO DRIVE, if the physics are realistic, thats welcome. That, in my book, its a simulation. The rest should be optional. The world sucks, thats why you all want a simulation to suck? :razz:

Play S1. :shrug:

:smileypul do you understand, at all, what I'm arguing here?

[ATC Quicksilver]

So you want it to be a simulation, but without it copying the real world in any way other than physics? I do get your point, but its not like its suddenly turned into Netkar overnight. Infact Scawen has shown he still wants it to be played like a game, HUD, custom views and the ability to pick up and play, rather than sit in a garage flicking switches. The deal is, we have custom views and HUD, and the pick up and play style of gaming, but on the track its a realistic simulation.

My play S1 comment was valid, since it had quite good physics, with no clutch damage, car damage, tyre wear or fuel.

[mathew4445]

Well, I dont know what your "MAYOR" has been doing.. =/

But your asking him to do what now?

[JTbo]

I'm disappointed by people not reading all my argument. I WANT TO DRIVE, if the physics are realistic, thats welcome. That, in my book, its a simulation. The rest should be optional. The world sucks, thats why you all want a simulation to suck? :razz:

Well, from this side of screen it is you that don't understand what driving simulation includes, you like to have tires that don't get hot, clutch that keeps cool, making it less like driving, but more like gaming.

Part of simulating driving is clutch and tire temps, good driver keeps those in good level trough race and wins partly because that, it is part of driving, very important part.

If you like just play driving a car, there are other titles, Project Torque for example, that might be directed more towards users with similar interest of you.

LFS is evolving to more and more towards sim and that will not fit to all, then there is choice that must be made, to continue or not, does it offer what you would like to see, is realism what you want. It can very well be that at some point your road and LFS road is not leading to same direction any more.

[MAGGOT]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion. :tilt:


See, LFS is a simulation. It has always been intended to be a simulation. I see where you're coming from, though... and that's what games like GTR, Race, rFactor and such are for.

Also, if your tires and clutch don't last then you have a poor driving technique. I have absolutely no troubles keeping the tires on my car and my clutch cool, and I don't try to be gentle or anything, I just drive. Granted I'm not and alien, but I'm not exactly the slowest guy out there, either.

[XCNuse]

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

[Herbz]

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

Boooo... I mean thanks.

[Bodhidharmazen]

So you want it to be a simulation, but without it copying the real world in any way other than physics? I do get your point, but its not like its suddenly turned into Netkar overnight. Infact Scawen has shown he still wants it to be played like a game, HUD, custom views and the ability to pick up and play, rather than sit in a garage flicking switches. The deal is, we have custom views and HUD, and the pick up and play style of gaming, but on the track its a realistic simulation.

My play S1 comment was valid, since it had quite good physics, with no clutch damage, car damage, tyre wear or fuel.

Thanks then, I misunderstood your comment as being sarcastic or something like that. Thats exactly what I was going to argue, why on earth all "realists" allow LFS to have custom views? It is a game, and it should allow us to race without having to deal with some things.

Now, I already have S2, and I want to enjoy the game, its just that I don't like the attitude of some screaming " itz all about realisssmmm duuuuddeee" when somebody criticizes the work done with this patch.

[mathew4445]

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.


Way to go party crasher -.-

[Bodhidharmazen]

Part of simulating driving is clutch and tire temps, good driver keeps those in good level trough race and wins partly because that, it is part of driving, very important part.

If you like just play driving a car, there are other titles, Project Torque for example, that might be directed more towards users with similar interest of you.

LFS is evolving to more and more towards sim and that will not fit to all, then there is choice that must be made, to continue or not, does it offer what you would like to see, is realism what you want. It can very well be that at some point your road and LFS road is not leading to same direction any more.

Thanks for your answer. I will look at that Project Torque. And Im sure I will give LFS another try, I might be disappointed, but not to the point of hating it :D

Also, if your tires and clutch don't last then you have a poor driving technique. I have absolutely no troubles keeping the tires on my car and my clutch cool, and I don't try to be gentle or anything, I just drive. Granted I'm not and alien, but I'm not exactly the slowest guy out there, either.

Yes, I will give it another try (and another) in order to get accustomed to the new patch. I was venting, in a way, and realizing that yes, I do like the physics simulation but not the part about having to be a mechanic to deal with setups, nor dealing with clutches and the rest of the new stuff.

For those of you that don't know any spanish, I bracketed the title for you people.

Err, thanks, but it would be better to correct it, can you? :thumb:

[MAGGOT]

Yes, I will give it another try (and another) in order to get accustomed to the new patch. I was venting, in a way, and realizing that yes, I do like the physics simulation but not the part about having to be a mechanic to deal with setups, nor dealing with clutches and the rest of the new stuff.

I don't know how to setup a car, either. I can adjust gear ratios to suit the track (well, final drive anyways) but aside from that the only setup changes I make are changing the tire brands to match the car (aesthetics are important, too! :P Can't have 'Evostar' plastered all over the car with 'Torro' tires now, can we?). The clutch heat is something I can't believe people are having an issue with. I haven't had a single problem in any car, and I've done some 40 lappers against the AI. My CT gauge is only ever about 2 pixels full. I also haven't had any problems with tires, and I've made them last quite long, too. Some race car setups may need camber adjustments, though, as some of them had their base camber increased in the patch. If your old GTR/S-S setups now can't go 3 laps without burning out the tires, try that.

The new changes are for the better, and by no means make it more difficult to drive imho. I barely even notice them; especially since I've been using manual throttle cut and blip for ever, and manual clutch for a few months.

[JTbo]

I was going to argue, why on earth all "realists" allow LFS to have custom views?

Cockpit view is only that can be allowed in sake of realism, this should be configurable only that much that with different display setups it could be adjusted to get realistic view. With any other arcade like view there should be bright red ARCADE text flashing on screen and buzzer sound should be played that could not be turned off, not even by removing files. In replay thing is of course different, you can have had cameras in different positions and in there user view would be also nice for making movies only.

Something like that would be nice :D

[AeroMechanical]

If it doesn't put limitations on the realism for the rest of us, I can't think of any good reason not to include driving aids for newcomers to sim-racing or people who just want a more casual experience. I don't think there is a pressing need for them, and they ought to be discouraged because you're really selling yourself short if you let the computer do a lot of the driving for you, but it never hurts to have options.

I suspect a lot of this is just a knee-jerk reaction to the changes in Y and will blow over pretty soon though. I'm pretty new to LFS but I was driving correctly before the patch. I actually didn't know you could get away with flat-shifting and such before and I would have been upset about that had I known- I don't want to put myself at a disadvantage because I want to drive closely as possible to a real car. That is upsetting.

Overall though, I think it would be a good idea to include a 'beginner' mode (please, let's not call it arcade- a sim-racer with all the aids turned on is still a far cry from an arcade game) at some point in the development of LFS. Of course, I certainly wouldn't consider it a priority.

I do think it would be in the best interst of everyone on these forums to be a little more open to other people's opinions. We know that racing sims are most rewarding when you put the effort into doing it properly, and politely explaining that while still respecting the othr position will be better for us all in the end. Would you prefer people simply gave up on LFS because they found it too difficult, or would you rather they figured out why it is that we appreciate realism down to the smallest detail and practice so that they become accomplished racers against whom we can compete?

Personally, the most fun I've ever had with sim-racers was way back in the beginning when I could barely keep the car on the road and progress came in epiphanies and great whopping chunks of time instead of hundreths of a second. It's the learning process itself that I find so rewarding.

There are a lot of great, friendly and helpful people in this community but I see so much disrespect on the forums that I can easily see why a new player would be turned off. I think we really ought to work at making this forum a more inviting place where people can come for help and ask questions or state their opinions without being treated so disrespectfully.

Oh, and sorry, that wasn't entirely on topic, but it seemed like a good time to mention it. ;)

Love,
Aero

[StanleyCarter]

Keep it going. You know by the time this thread reaches 100 pages, LFS is still going to be a SIMULATION game only.

*yawn*

[The Very End]

Not this again :doh:
Why does people even make a new topic about this thing when they see that there allready is 10 others of them.

+1 to remove demo rights to write on the forum.

[JJ72]

I fail to see why LFS is "too difficult", I mean people who can't handle LFS will go play GT5, if they are really keen about learning how to drive, they will improve and someday they will be good enough for LFS (and being a really crappy driver myself I don't really understand how LFS is too difficult, I mean cars like the FBM and XFG are pretty straight forward)


Dumbing down LFS might attraction some instant sales, but among those people, how much of them will be really keen pupils, who seek constant improvement and rather than just feeling comfy that they are playing a "sim"? I think people who contributes to LFS and people who make this community great are those who are willing, revenue has never been a problem with LFS so there's no need to open up just for more income. Lets keep LFS as something you have to work hard to appreciate.

If people become so lazy in our fast food culture that actually learning to play a game become an alienative idea, than may LFS be the last game to bow down.

[joen]

Hate to break it to you but it seems LFS is just not the game for you. You already struggle with setups and clutch handling. These are integral parts of racing. It will only get worse for you because more changes are bound to come to LFS in the future that will only make it harder on you.

[Damo74]

Ummmm, all you arcade wannabe's, heads up, but just to let you know, LFS is heading in the same direction it has been since day one of its inception. This is what LFS was created for. It hasn't wavered and has continued to improve. Sorry to say, but as more realistic features are added, it's gonna get more difficult to drive, just like it is in real life!

[The Very End]

True :shrug:
People need to adapt, thats just the way it is.
Probally in the future there will come a lot of things I and others don`t like too, but we just have to adapt to it.

[73AMX401]

I know this is going to open a can of worms but i have to ask why do people have a problem using the clutch with a keyboard on Patch Y? Furthermore if you have a problem with the clutch then turn the manual clutch off instead of coming on here and complaining like a bunch of idiots. By the way, I use a keyboard with the manual clutch and i have never burnt the clutch up. Its not that hard. I would love to have a G25 but that's not in the budget right now. I have actually used the keyboard and clutch since i joined on Patch W and at the time I wished it the cars would stall. Now we get it and all I have seen is complaining. Have you people tried driving the cars more realistically? Sure in a game you can do 7000rpm clutch dumps with no problem but IRL that could be load of damage. Personally I'm glad for the clutch heat because it proves that LFS is moving forward to a more realistic horizon and if some people don't like it and don't want to cope with changes then farewell we didn't need you to start with. By the way, I do know that the clutch isn't the best on a keyboard but that's a realistic step I couldn't go without using. Also sorry if this is already been said I'm just tired of seeing people complain about every little detail of a WORK IN PROGRESS game. Hence these little things called patches that people cry over.

[lfs-drift staff]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion. :tilt:

if you play this game its beacause you know BASICALI the realism of racing soo if you know nothing play nfs lol . if your a programer just do a mod but i guess no one will agree of that

[lfs-drift staff]

I know this is going to open a can of worms but i have to ask why do people have a problem using the clutch with a keyboard on Patch Y? Furthermore if you have a problem with the clutch then turn the manual clutch off instead of coming on here and complaining like a bunch of idiots. By the way, I use a keyboard with the manual clutch and i have never burnt the clutch up. Its not that hard. I would love to have a G25 but that's not in the budget right now. I have actually used the keyboard and clutch since i joined on Patch W and at the time I wished it the cars would stall. Now we get it and all I have seen is complaining. Have you people tried driving the cars more realistically? Sure in a game you can do 7000rpm clutch dumps with no problem but IRL that could be load of damage. Personally I'm glad for the clutch heat because it proves that LFS is moving forward to a more realistic horizon and if some people don't like it and don't want to cope with changes then farewell we didn't need you to start with. By the way, I do know that the clutch isn't the best on a keyboard but that's a realistic step I couldn't go without using. Also sorry if this is already been said I'm just tired of seeing people complain about every little detail of a WORK IN PROGRESS game. Hence these little things called patches that people cry over.

the answer is easy ... they drive like a newb they need to get more skillz

[ajp71]

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.


Looking after the car and tires is an essential part of driving in fact what you want to do isn't driving the car at all, you just simply want to race without having to worry about driving the car. In that case you do not want a racing simulator.

ENJOY THE DRIVING WITHOUT THE LIMITATIONS OF REALITY.

Go play GT/TRD you don't have to play within the realms of reality there or maybe Wipeout is more your cup of tea?


What I like is to drive, it would be nice to drive without "reality" limitations. It would be nice to have a SIMULATION (to use the word most of you love) that were fantastic with physics leaving us the responsability to be fantastic with our driving skills.


Hmm the last time I checked thermodynamics were considered part of physics. If you just chop and change the laws of physics how on earth do you expect to end up with a realistic driving experience?

If it doesn't put limitations on the realism for the rest of us, I can't think of any good reason not to include driving aids for newcomers to sim-racing or people who just want a more casual experience. I don't think there is a pressing need for them, and they ought to be discouraged because you're really selling yourself short if you let the computer do a lot of the driving for you, but it never hurts to have options.

They've just been removed so I think there is a reason for them not being in the sim any more, namely because everyone would start using auto-cut and blip to remain consistant, they should never have been added in the first place, now thankfully they've gone forever, ironically it's the people who haven't been using auto-cut or lifting that are now complaining of its loss. All this two pedals needs aids stuff is bollocks, I've run since the beginning with a two pedal setup and never ran cut or blip. I'm far faster when I choose to use 2 pedals than 3 although I have more fun when using 3 pedals.

Why LFS has auto-gears and brake and steering help options is beyond me, they need to be removed pronto IMO we've already clearly picked up far too many arcade racers and I still feel LFS isolating from the old guard of serious sim racers has its draw backs, I'm sure if they could be convinced to try it properly they'd soon ditch the ISI rubbish most of them are now playing. The problem is they go on a demo server then come over here and see these silly arcade requests and get put off.

If you bought an arcade game would you suddenly expect it to veer off into a serious simulation half way through its development?

[danben7]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade



http://www.granturismoworld.com/

[phoretwenny]

I'm only disappointed in one thing really (more confused about it actually), that is, when your engine is buggered, do you have to press SHIFT + P? Is that your only option? When you pit, it only refuels and evens out the body, but I try to continue racing and the revs are real high straight away and changing gear makes no difference. Is there a button I push or something? It would really suck if SHIFT + P is your only option, but I'd adjust.

[niall09]

I'm only disappointed in one thing really (more confused about it actually), that is, when your engine is buggered, do you have to press SHIFT + P? Is that your only option? When you pit, it only refuels and evens out the body, but I try to continue racing and the revs are real high straight away and changing gear makes no difference. Is there a button I push or something? It would really suck if SHIFT + P is your only option, but I'd adjust.

Its your clutch melting :thumb: Lift off the throttle while up shfting to prevent this from happening ;)

[ajp71]

I'm only disappointed in one thing really (more confused about it actually), that is, when your engine is buggered, do you have to press SHIFT + P? Is that your only option? When you pit, it only refuels and evens out the body, but I try to continue racing and the revs are real high straight away and changing gear makes no difference. Is there a button I push or something? It would really suck if SHIFT + P is your only option, but I'd adjust.

Have you ever seen a 30 second engine or clutch change?

[phoretwenny]

Its your clutch melting :thumb: Lift off the throttle while up shfting to prevent this from happening ;)
I see. Well that's definitely the problem. Didn't think it was that realistic. :D
Have you ever seen a 30 second engine or clutch change?
True man. I guess I didn't expect it to be as realistic as it as. I think the only problem though is having to start your laps all over again, like, if you were 4th, on your second last lap, and your engine buggers up, that's it, game over man. You gotta start from lap 1. But then that creates the motivation to be really careful, so it's good in that way.

[Eleanor SpeedGT]

What the hell is wrong with people?
That's not the first bashing thread in this forum and I just cannot think why people don't like it at all. It's fine, patch is good, racing still exists....

Coming today morning in the forums and again I see few new threads about "This patch sucks omg omg omg!"
I just had a cool race in RR server (SO6, FBM) and i came 3rd out of 15, final lap i also had a battle for 1st place, I really couldn't belive myself coming 3rd..
I know that it's nothing special, but for me it's special and when I exit LFS, i just think once more about this great simulator.
Im happy with LFS, though seeing some don't.

[Gunn]

If it doesn't put limitations on the realism for the rest of us, I can't think of any good reason not to include driving aids for newcomers to sim-racing or people who just want a more casual experience. I don't think there is a pressing need for them, and they ought to be discouraged because you're really selling yourself short if you let the computer do a lot of the driving for you, but it never hurts to have options.Options though can create an unfair platform for competition, especially in a racing sim. While they certainly can help new players they may give an unfair advantage in a race situation online. It could be argued that offline play could include driving aids, but in an online race it may be unfairly exploited.

[Electrik Kar]

Lets keep LFS as something you have to work hard to appreciate.

If people become so lazy in our fast food culture that actually learning to play a game become an alienative idea, than may LFS be the last game to bow down.

This patch has actually made me face the fact that racing games are created for very different reasons. Completely obvious really, but there sometimes is this very elitist attitude around LFS which I've liked to imagine would dissolve a bit if arcade racers actually started becomming more sim-like (Forza 2 being a good example). With the latest patch especially, I've had to concede that some people only want to go so far when it comes to actually simulating real racing. It seems as if LFS has actually crossed some sort of boundry and is firmly cementing itself into the hardcore sim territory, shedding itself of many of its former arcade elements. Or maybe this is what happens every patch (more likely) and people just don't want to adapt. I haven't seen good reasons for people to actively dislike the new patch, other than that its now 'more real'. Which should be a good thing- but apparently not. Yes, LFS is a game, but it's trying hard to be so much more than just a game, and that's what's exciting about LFS. Maybe when S3 is finished and done, no-one in their right mind would dare call it a 'game' anymore, because games are something else entirely. Maybe by then it's more 'sport', 'e-sport', definitely more 'sim', closer to real life (racing) than an arcade racer, which I understand is the goal.

[Gunn]

Or maybe this is what happens every patch (more likely) and people just don't want to adapt.Yes it has happened quite a few times over the past five years, more so on major updates. When the keyboard steering was changed back in E6/7, the debate raged for several weeks. Engine damage and tyre wear produced a myriad of "hate" threads too. But many of those who adapted went on to become fine sim racers and strong supporters of LFS. LFS (to me) has always been heading towards "hardcore" territory from the very beginning. That's why I've stuck around. No other "sim" dares to do it properly.

[danben7]

Yes it has happened quite a few times over the past five years, more so on major updates. When the keyboard steering was changed back in E6/7, the debate raged for several weeks. Engine damage and tyre wear produced a myriad of "hate" threads too. But many of those who adapted went on to become fine sim racers and strong supporters of LFS. LFS (to me) has always been heading towards "hardcore" territory from the very beginning. That's why I've stuck around. No other "sim" dares to do it properly.

I wouldn't call it hardcore, i'd call it closer to real life.

Why do people not want a sim, to be like the real thing? I don't get it.

[Gunn]

I wouldn't call it hardcore, i'd call it closer to real life.

Why do people not want a sim, to be like the real thing? I don't get it."Hardcore" is a term used often by those who don't like driving aids removed or who think the sim is really "just for fun", when they refer to changes that promote realism and make the driving more of a skill than a knack. When you look at the huge body of racing titles that have been made for PC, LFS leans towards the "hardcore" direction as opposed to the "arcade" direction. The term isn't perfect, but is easy to interpret in context. :)

[Crashgate3]

To be honest, the only thing I've radically had to change in my driving style is the throttle blip, if anything I find myself a bit faster and a lot more consistent with this new patch. Just having a quick half-hour burn around in the XFG on FE Green offline, I just knocked a second off my best time. I think possibly the fact that I'm having to manually blip is helping me keep my mind on the task in hand.

[ORBman]

I do like the physics simulation but not the part about having to be a mechanic to deal with setups, nor dealing with clutches and the rest of the new stuff.

A good racing driver knows what should be changed on the car to have better performance or to better suit the driver's needs. She doesn't have to be a mechanic to actually know how to do it but she should be able to tell the mechanic what to do.

[Rappa Z]

I don't know about having an arcade and sim mode. There are already a million drivers sucked into cruising servers and drift servers, and racing needs all it can get.

OT- This should be the only thread left complaining about the patch. All the others are way too one sided and/or flame wars.

[Dalibor79]

So....from demo view(not for long:shy:) GREAT thing is FBM. Fantastic even.
And for devs, with which we're blessed with, i mean look - u pay once and this thing lives and evolves, and they could take money monthly-which they dont:thumb:.
Leave them, don't worry, they're doing great job, in fact their part of developing seems altruistic...I hate some ppl saying and waiting for s3 , that's nonsense, BE HAPPY with what u got NOW. I don't care for s3, s4 , alpha, beta, gamma....that doesn't matter cos this thing LFS is in good hands and gets better and better.....
So to scavier team - relax'n'enjoy for holidays, you ve earned it. And lots of respect(which many people just don't give enough)
cheers:thumbsup:

[JJ72]

can someone tell me without "real world limitations" like gravity, drag, friction and grip.........how the heck are we going to .................."drive"?

I really hope these kind of patch happens more often. so people are reminded that this is a ongoing project.

[joen]

So....from demo view(not for long:shy:) GREAT thing is FBM. Fantastic even.
And for devs, with which we're blessed with, i mean look - u pay once and this thing lives and evolves, and they could take money monthly-which they dont:thumb:.
Leave them, don't worry, they're doing great job, in fact their part of developing seems altruistic...I hate some ppl saying and waiting for s3 , that's nonsense, BE HAPPY with what u got NOW. I don't care for s3, s4 , alpha, beta, gamma....that doesn't matter cos this thing LFS is in good hands and gets better and better.....
So to scavier team - relax'n'enjoy for holidays, you ve earned it. And lots of respect(which many people just don't give enough)
cheers:thumbsup:

:) Refreshing to hear from a demo user who appreciates the work on LFS. Hope to see you in S2 in the future :thumb:

[Dalibor79]

yeah, hope so, if i could buy it, "just like that", that woulbe done thing. But some people like me are having problem with internet paying, I even opened new account, got a card and discovered that it doesn't work for lfs.:really: crap. But there's other stuff in life to take care of, but licence will come. sooner than later i hope:nod:

[ajp71]

Yes it has happened quite a few times over the past five years, more so on major updates. When the keyboard steering was changed back in E6/7, the debate raged for several weeks. Engine damage and tyre wear produced a myriad of "hate" threads too. But many of those who adapted went on to become fine sim racers and strong supporters of LFS. LFS (to me) has always been heading towards "hardcore" territory from the very beginning. That's why I've stuck around. No other "sim" dares to do it properly.

I don't think LFS is very hardcore compared to Papy, nk and even ISI. It doesn't have clearly structured sessions and a very forgiving damage model and until recently it had an arcade reset, far too quick repairs and no forced cockpit or false starts. I've always felt that it tended to much towards the arcadey side from the first demos until patch X when Scawen sent a clear message that there was going to be a sea change in direction. Ever since then I think there's been a growing minority of LFS players who've started to show opposition to virtually every element of LFS's development. I think they're only just realising LFS isn't what they want, hopefully if they leave then a lot of the sensible mature racers who are currently playing ISI sims will be tempted by LFS.

[Gunn]

I don't think LFS is very hardcore compared to Papy, nk and even ISI. It doesn't have clearly structured sessions and a very forgiving damage model and until recently it had an arcade reset, far too quick repairs and no forced cockpit or false starts. I've always felt that it tended to much towards the arcadey side from the first demos until patch X when Scawen sent a clear message that there was going to be a sea change in direction. Ever since then I think there's been a growing minority of LFS players who've started to show opposition to virtually every element of LFS's development. I think they're only just realising LFS isn't what they want, hopefully if they leave then a lot of the sensible mature racers who are currently playing ISI sims will be tempted by LFS.I have played GPL since it was released and I can honestly say that it has been left behind by LFS as far as physics is concerned. Yes it is difficult to master and offers a more realistic expereince than a lot of modern titles, but it's old hat now. I love GPL with a passion almost equal to LFS, but I'm not deluded. GPL doesn't cut it in the modern era. It doesn't stack up beside LFS. I agree completely with you about LFS maybe "dragging the chain" in regards to dumping the acrcadey features, but since I have always played it as "hardcore" as possible I may be a little blind to that side.

I'm keen for arcade racers to become sim racers and I won't pretend that I don't have contempt for lesser "sims". I think LFS has turned a lot of arcade racers into sim enthusiasts already and I sincerely hope that many more of these guys cross-over and begin to revel in the whole concept of a true race simulator.

Without any malice whatsoever I look forward to no chase mode or wheels views, the option to set server-side restrictions on controller type, setup parameters, and driving aids etc, and even more realistic trackside options like a warm-up lap and grid formation etc.

I understand some people's dismay and chagrin at the possibility of these tougher restrictions, but the goal for me is a true race simulator, not a racing simulation that belongs with all of the "me too" titles that have dominated the racing genre since the conception of the PC.

[11SuLLy11]

:schwitz:

I'm about to go crazy

go play need for speed then ye little pack of whiners

LFS= TOP CLASS SIM

if you don't agree get lost

[ajp71]

I have played GPL since it was released and I can honestly say that it has been left behind by LFS as far as physics is concerned. Yes it is difficult to master and offers a more realistic expereince than a lot of modern titles, but it's old hat now. I love GPL with a passion almost equal to LFS, but I'm not deluded. GPL doesn't cut it in the modern era. It doesn't stack up beside LFS. I agree completely with you about LFS maybe "dragging the chain" in regards to dumping the acrcadey features, but since I have always played it as "hardcore" as possible I may be a little blind to that side.

No question about it GPL isn't up to the standards of the few rF mods that don't willingly change the laws of physics. What makes GPL special though is just how pure a sim it is. Due to the fact it simulates hard to drive cars with little in the way of aids noobs and arcade players tend to ignore the GPL community. GPL is the benchmark that all sims should still be judged against IMO, it's nearly ten years old so no modern sim should have difficulty in beating it, at least on paper in every department. A lot of sims still fail to meet this benchmark (SimBin are still failing dramatically in the FF and physics departments IMO), which is really a compliment to Papy.

[Gunn]

Yes, when GPL arrived on the scene it was so far left of field that many people dropped it like a hot potato. But it also attracted a group of enthusiasts, many of whom are still around today (thank the Gods).
If GPL had never have appeared perhaps true sim racing would still be just a dream. I reckon Crammond may not have been inclined to evolve the GP series either if not for GPL. I recall many people bitching about how easy it was to spin the car in GP2. For me that was one of things that made GP2 stand out: it wasn't easy to drive with aids turned off. Throttle-mashers need not apply. :D

[theirishnoob]

imo if you want arcade , bu drand turismo , if you want realism buy kiado racer 2

if you want a mix of both... play LFS.

[pearcy_2k7]

Man you guys are S.T.U.P.I.D yes i drive on keyboard, most of the time the gear chnage and the clutch isnt the problem, the handling has also changed.

To the guy that said get more skills come over to redline 3 and ill show you how slow i am.

[DevilDare]

..... dude! how many more patch Y threads do we need? the first page of general discussion is filled with Y threads...... not Kewl guys calm down and play the god damn game.

[wien]

Man you guys are S.T.U.P.I.D yes i drive on keyboard, most of the time the gear chnage and the clutch isnt the problem, the handling has also changed.Not really. The engine power curve is different so you'll need to adjust the gearing, slicks heat more quickly so you'll need to at least tweak pressures and most likely change compound and some cars have had a default camber adjust meaning you need to adjust your setup accordingly. Other than that, nothing has changed.

Now the engine adjustment and tyre changes may indeed have an impact on how the cars handle, but they are both changes making things a lot more realistic. The old engines were completely off base in how they delivered power and how far they revved, and being able to do endurance races on what in effect was quali-tires was hardly realistic either.

Either way I can't for the life of me understand what the problem is. As long as the change is for the better (more realistic), adjust and move on. What is the problem?

[jimaxx]

I know this is going to open a can of worms but i have to ask why do people have a problem using the clutch with a keyboard on Patch Y? Furthermore if you have a problem with the clutch then turn the manual clutch off instead of coming on here and complaining like a bunch of idiots. By the way, I use a keyboard with the manual clutch and i have never burnt the clutch up. Its not that hard. I would love to have a G25 but that's not in the budget right now. I have actually used the keyboard and clutch since i joined on Patch W and at the time I wished it the cars would stall. Now we get it and all I have seen is complaining. Have you people tried driving the cars more realistically? Sure in a game you can do 7000rpm clutch dumps with no problem but IRL that could be load of damage. Personally I'm glad for the clutch heat because it proves that LFS is moving forward to a more realistic horizon and if some people don't like it and don't want to cope with changes then farewell we didn't need you to start with. By the way, I do know that the clutch isn't the best on a keyboard but that's a realistic step I couldn't go without using. Also sorry if this is already been said I'm just tired of seeing people complain about every little detail of a WORK IN PROGRESS game. Hence these little things called patches that people cry over.

I agree with you mostly except for your point that its the clutch, it ISNT the clutch kb users have problems with its the throttle dropping as it dosnt drop quick enough and (i dont think) button control rate effects this, so we have to wait for about half a second before we can switch up a gear. But auto is quicker with the FBM and FOX etc anyway?

[ajp71]

If GPL had never have appeared perhaps true sim racing would still be just a dream.

There's no doubt in my mind that GPL created the sim racing genre as we know it today, it was such a radical departure from the previous 2D sims that pre-dated it. Everything since GPL has just been polishing and slight refinements in the physics model. I think the next ground breaking move will be the first non-rigid body physics engine but I think that's still years away due to hardware more than anything else.

[Drunken Predator]

I felt bit aggrivated by it at first.. but now that ive had some practice today.. and ive had lil wine.. all i can do is accept that its a great chance to finally learn heel and toe properly.. i wish i could find a decent shifter from this country.. ive been looking for one over a year... and dont mention G25.. im not paying craploads for nice wheel, mediocre pedals (i already have great ones), and cheap joystic technology converted to a shifter with software.

[Riders Motion]

Damn if you guys ain't happy, go get this. I swear it's a shocking experience, it cost nuts and comes with adapters.

http://www.journaldugeek.com/images/2007_04/Suicide%20garantie.jpg

[evilgeek]

Not this again :doh:
Why does people even make a new topic about this thing when they see that there allready is 10 others of them.

+1 to remove demo rights to write on the forum.


YES!!!!

[Gunn]

I felt bit aggrivated by it at first.. but now that ive had some practice today.. and ive had lil wine.. all i can do is accept that its a great chance to finally learn heel and toe properly.. i wish i could find a decent shifter from this country.. ive been looking for one over a year... and dont mention G25.. im not paying craploads for nice wheel, mediocre pedals (i already have great ones), and cheap joystic technology converted to a shifter with software.The G25 shifter is nothing like a joystick in design or construction. The pedals are quite good, far better than anything Dogitech has ever made before. Better controllers cost way more. You could do a lot worse than a G25 mate. ;)

[Drunken Predator]

Yes it is, same technology. On my cheap joystick there are two pots (like in G25 shifter) to define the position... then theres only the lock to gear mechanism that differs it from a joystick.. few buttons with cheap switches just like in normal cheap joystick.. hell.. even the centering spring mechanism is 100% same as in joysticks...

Here to look the internals:
http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=277322

[Gunn]

Yes it is, same technology. On my cheap joystick there are two pots (like in G25 shifter) to define the position... then theres only the lock to gear mechanism that differs it from a joystick.. few buttons with cheap switches just like in normal cheap joystick.. hell.. even the centering spring mechanism is 100% same as in joysticks...

Here to look the internals:
http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=277322How many micro switches does your joystick have for physical contact? None?

[Drunken Predator]

How many micro switches does your joystick have for physical contact? None?

Doesnt change the fact that its utter crap and at best "ok" solution to go with. Do you have any black on white about the microswitches? IE what are they used for? Cant see one need for microswitches looking at the internals.. if i didnt have great pedals and ok wheel i might go for G25.. but id rather get a good shifter next.. I made my choice between my pedals and G25 once, and must say ive been so satisfied i did the choice i did! Not to take ya down as a whole G25 is an ok deal, but for someone who mainly wishes to get a shifter it makes no sense whatsoever.

[dadge]

i got to the bottom of page one and fell asleep. i'm sure there will be another dozen of these threads in another hour or two. it's a bit like channel4+1

[ajp71]

Here to look the internals:
http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=277322

Ouch no wonder the things are breaking looks like a typical crappy Logitech joystick type build quality with a few modifications that'll all wear out and break far faster than the wheel itself. My limited desire to consider a G25 has just disappeared in a puff of smoke. If I ever want a shifter I'll build my own.

[JTbo]

Doesnt change the fact that its utter crap and at best "ok" solution to go with. Do you have any black on white about the microswitches? IE what are they used for? Cant see one need for microswitches looking at the internals.. if i didnt have great pedals and ok wheel i might go for G25.. but id rather get a good shifter next.. I made my choice between my pedals and G25 once, and must say ive been so satisfied i did the choice i did! Not to take ya down as a whole G25 is an ok deal, but for someone who mainly wishes to get a shifter it makes no sense whatsoever.

Shifter is not very strong either, wheel is very good (ffb specially), but shifter is not so nice, also pedals are bit wierd when comparing to IRL pedal setup.

Too bad Act-Labs stuff is going to cost huge sum of money when ordering from here, would be nice to have better shifter. Don't know about Finnmotion pedals if those are any good compared to G25 pedals, however hydrobrake from Frex is perhaps something that should help with feeling, just cost is again pretty insane.

[Drunken Predator]

I personally own Finnmotion pedals.. they are pretty good.. a big, huge improvement from the plastic pedals.. You could get ACT Labs shifter from one UK retailer reasoanble cheap, but i dont want one of those either.. not the best longevity i hear.. SST lightning is the shifter ive been looking for.. but shipping from US + the finnish tax would make the cost bit too steep.. its a crap situation really.. i hope some finnish DIY guy starts building few shifters for sale, im sure quite many would buy a decent quality shifter around here.

[ajp71]

Too bad Act-Labs stuff is going to cost huge sum of money when ordering from here, would be nice to have better shifter. Don't know about Finnmotion pedals if those are any good compared to G25 pedals, however hydrobrake from Frex is perhaps something that should help with feeling, just cost is again pretty insane.

but shipping from US + the finnish tax

The shipping for the Act Labs and SST for the UK and Finland is $40 and no tax, not bad really given the weak dollar. The SST for £110 delivered seems tempting but first I'd need to get a good pair of pedals and I'm not sure whether to go down the build or buy route, I've given up on purchasing TCannon's guide because he appears to be dead and I'm not going to buy it if I can't get the parts for sensible money in the UK (and need to know what they are first).

The ECCI pedals are simply too expensive and so are the Act Labs and Finnmotion pedals really (£175 + shipping). I'm not sure if anybody makes pedals worth knowing about for less than that? What I'd really like is proper pedal placement, adjustability so they can be properly raised to an appropriate height whilst floor mounted and most of all, quality. I don't really need a pressure sensitive brake pedal if that's out of my budget.

[Drunken Predator]

The shipping for the Act Labs and SST for the UK and Finland is $40 and no tax, not bad really given the weak dollar. The SST for £110 delivered seems tempting but first I'd need to get a good pair of pedals and I'm not sure whether to go down the build or buy route, I've given up on purchasing TCannon's guide because he appears to be dead and I'm not going to buy it if I can't get the parts for sensible money in the UK (and need to know what they are first).

The ECCI pedals are simply too expensive and so are the Act Labs and Finnmotion pedals really (£175 + shipping). I'm not sure if anybody makes pedals worth knowing about for less than that? What I'd really like is proper pedal placement, adjustability so they can be properly raised to an appropriate height whilst floor mounted and most of all, quality. I don't really need a pressure sensitive brake pedal if that's out of my budget.

The finnish customs add 22% of the value of the product.. its thanks to lovely finnish tax system... can you believe its actually called "value extension tax"... bunch of bollox, allthough we do have a free healthcarea and.. and... cheap almost taxless booze? :)

[Bodhidharmazen]

I fail to see why LFS is "too difficult"

Post this in a thread where the OP its about LFS being difficult then, it has nothing to do with the thread.

[Bodhidharmazen]

Hate to break it to you but it seems LFS is just not the game for you. You already struggle with setups and clutch handling. These are integral parts of racing. It will only get worse for you because more changes are bound to come to LFS in the future that will only make it harder on you.

So, where are my mechanics and engineers to deal with a proper setup, taking care of things like acceleration, temperature, angles and such in the game? it is a simulation right, why can't I have a simulated engineer?

I like to drive, and I hire someone else to fix my car when something is wrong, the same happens in the track, if a team wants you to drive, they want you TO DRIVE. Sure, it helps a pilot to know about some variables, but mechanics and engineers DEAL WITH THEM, so, why dont you argue with the designers about including such realism?

And about the "harder for me", look, I can deal with difficult stuff, the same as you and others in the forum. That doesn't mean I SHOULD LIKE IT.

As I have expressed, the "realism" is relative and I NEVER buy opinions based on bias (like fanboys use to). PLEASE NOTE that Im not saying you are a fanboy, you are being honest and not really offensive, but I express it here for others to read.

[JTbo]

The finnish customs add 22% of the value of the product.. its thanks to lovely finnish tax system... can you believe its actually called "value extension tax"... bunch of bollox, allthough we do have a free healthcarea and.. and... cheap almost taxless booze? :)

That 22% is added to delivery costs too :tilt:

[Bodhidharmazen]

Ummmm, all you arcade wannabe's, heads up,

LOL what about you! playing computer games! :really::D Besides, READ AGAIN, understand my arguments before making any comment. Thanks.

[lizardfolk]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion. :tilt:

Sounds like a Need for Speed ProStreet player. -_-

Are you serious? Did you miss the word "SIMULATION" that described the entire game? Would you ask GTR2, ToCA 3, NR2003, or rFactor to include an arcade version of the game?

If patch Y is weeding out the retards then it's probably the best thing that can happen in LFS.

[Bodhidharmazen]

True :shrug:
People need to adapt, thats just the way it is.

I disagree. People needs to PARTICIPATE. People need to change things, ask for improvements, demand and shout. Other wise they are not people, but puppets. Nothing personal.

[Drunken Predator]

That 22% is added to delivery costs too :tilt:

Wow, didnt even know that! So.. we pay even 22% for the eh.. extended value of good delivery eh... :(

[lizardfolk]

I disagree. People needs to PARTICIPATE. People need to change things, ask for improvements, demand and shout. Other wise they are not people, but puppets. Nothing personal.

Do you go from CounterStrike to Halo and asking the Halo devs to make their game like CounterStrike? :shrug:

I dont know...logic dictates that if you cannot handle the realism of any good racing simulation, then you should stick to crappy street racing games like NFS. This game was labeled as a simulation and will be developed as such. End of story

[JTbo]

So, where are my mechanics and engineers to deal with a proper setup, taking care of things like acceleration, temperature, angles and such in the game? it is a simulation right, why can't I have a simulated engineer?

I like to drive, and I hire someone else to fix my car when something is wrong, the same happens in the track, if a team wants you to drive, they want you TO DRIVE. Sure, it helps a pilot to know about some variables, but mechanics and engineers DEAL WITH THEM, so, why dont you argue with the designers about including such realism?

And about the "harder for me", look, I can deal with difficult stuff, the same as you and others in the forum. That doesn't mean I SHOULD LIKE IT.

As I have expressed, the "realism" is relative and I NEVER buy opinions based on bias (like fanboys use to). PLEASE NOTE that Im not saying you are a fanboy, you are being honest and not really offensive, but I express it here for others to read.

There are lot of people online racing, some do share their setups, some do share their knowledge of how to improve set to suit your driving, some even can help you drive faster so there you have your team.
You can also gather few mechanic friends and do some session where you tell them what you like to adjust and they can do it for you, so actually it is not missing, it is just how creative you like to be?

Still it is in Alpha stage, not all parts of sim are developing same speed, now we had few thing improved towards more realism, later some other parts, eventually it will have all realistic things. This is where many seem to fail their conclusions as they treat LFS as finished product, it is not.

[pearcy_2k7]

exactly the auto clutch on FOX and FBM is nice and how it should be, on the BF1 it horrible, i can't get a feel for it like i used to.

[JO53PHS]

Do I change gear right... I assume I do since I never burn the clutch out.

Release throttle > Press Clutch > Shiftup > Release clutch > Back on throttle

[ajp71]

So, where are my mechanics and engineers to deal with a proper setup, taking care of things like acceleration, temperature, angles and such in the game? it is a simulation right, why can't I have a simulated engineer?


Yes because an engineer stops a real racing driver from burning the clutch out and overheating his tires?

[pearcy_2k7]

Im on keyboard i have not burnt a clutch yet, mostly because with auto clutch its virtually impossible thats NOT the point im making.

[Bodhidharmazen]

Hmm the last time I checked thermodynamics were considered part of physics. If you just chop and change the laws of physics how on earth do you expect to end up with a realistic driving experience?

Than you for bringing arguments to the table. That said, do you honestly believe that LFS is a fair simulation? Do you know the number of variables that are completely out of the modeling? Will you admit that there are more variables left out that the ones that are included?

Even the ones that are working, in some cases doing the best job on the planet.. do you believe they are as good as to make you believe you are racing a real car?

LFS its A GAME, it isolates a handfull of variables and try to depict a "accurate model" of reality. Why would you, and others, stand for the "realism" of a game that allows you to have custom views? (for instance).

I have a Logitech Momo. I do not plan to buy another wheel for having a clutch. That means I should not play LFS because my controller wouldnt be useful in a real car.

That means ALL AND EVERYONE OF YOU who drive with mouse, or keyboard, should simply not play the game, as thos controllers are not realist.

And the list could go on and on.

So, in the end, it is matter of dealing with a game with some variables fairly good modeled and the people who will actually play it (and more importantly, PAY FOR IT).

A game with options for hard core gamers, with proper setups (wheel with clutch at a minimum) and another, with the same basic rules behind it but that would allow us to simply drive, without being worried about things like clutches (because we don't have enough interest to buy the appropriate gear).

Thats not a lot to ask for.

[Bodhidharmazen]

I'm only disappointed in one thing really (more confused about it actually), that is, when your engine is buggered, do you have to press SHIFT + P? Is that your only option? When you pit, it only refuels and evens out the body, but I try to continue racing and the revs are real high straight away and changing gear makes no difference. Is there a button I push or something? It would really suck if SHIFT + P is your only option, but I'd adjust.

Ok, you bring a thing to the table that I was planning to use later :razz: all those "REALISM" whiners, its funny to see you all cry about "itss awll about reaaliismmm dduuudeeee" when you have options like shift+p!!! for crying out loud! Remove that option! in REAL CARS there is not such a thing as a car dissapearing magically from the track!

Want more? how about this, if your car gets wrecked, you should walk to the pits in order to get out of the game.. how about that! :D

[Bodhidharmazen]

What the hell is wrong with people?
That's not the first bashing thread in this forum and I just cannot think why people don't like it at all. It's fine, patch is good, racing still exists....

Opinions against opinions. What is wrong is that you believe your opinion ITS MORE IMPORTANT than others. Its like assuming that your opinion is THE UNIVERSAL TRUTH, while others opinions are.. well.. opinions! :scratchch

[lizardfolk]

Than you for bringing arguments to the table. That said, do you honestly believe that LFS is a fair simulation? Do you know the number of variables that are completely out of the modeling? Will you admit that there are more variables left out that the ones that are included?

Even the ones that are working, in some cases doing the best job on the planet.. do you believe they are as good as to make you believe you are racing a real car?

LFS its A GAME, it isolates a handfull of variables and try to depict a "accurate model" of reality. Why would you, and others, stand for the "realism" of a game that allows you to have custom views? (for instance).

I have a Logitech Momo. I do not plan to buy another wheel for having a clutch. That means I should not play LFS because my controller wouldnt be useful in a real car.

That means ALL AND EVERYONE OF YOU who drive with mouse, or keyboard, should simply not play the game, as thos controllers are not realist.

And the list could go on and on.

So, in the end, it is matter of dealing with a game with some variables fairly good modeled and the people who will actually play it (and more importantly, PAY FOR IT).

A game with options for hard core gamers, with proper setups (wheel with clutch at a minimum) and another, with the same basic rules behind it but that would allow us to simply drive, without being worried about things like clutches (because we don't have enough interest to buy the appropriate gear).

Thats not a lot to ask for.

Based on you opinion we should ban all simulations including rFactor, Microsoft's Flight Simulators and the simulators used by professional race car drivers and pilots.

Just because a game's "realism" model is not complete or "missing variable" doesn't mean we have to remove everything that would be considered realistic and resort to an arcade game.

As a racing enthusiast (and probably only racing enthusiasts should be playing this game) I know that no game can be experienced the same way as real life. However, I opt for as much realism as a game can handle to get the feel of racecraft. This is no place for "casual" racers (as most drifter apparently are). If you want to play a racing game without caring about the physics, handling or realism of a car. Then go play another game. (NFS)

A game with options for hard core gamers, with proper setups (wheel with clutch at a minimum) and another, with the same basic rules behind it but that would allow us to simply drive, without being worried about things like clutches (because we don't have enough interest to buy the appropriate gear).

Thats not a lot to ask for.

That's absurd to ask for in a racing simulation. Again, do you go from CounterStrike to Halo and ask the Halo devs to change their game to play like CounterStrike? :shrug: Logic people logic

[AeroMechanical]

Regarding my previous post, I don't want the beginner mode to be compatible with the full simulation mode so there wouldn't be any advantage. Additionally, you could take the GPL route and add artificial disadvantages to the driving aids amounting to several seconds per lap per aid on servers that allow both modes. That way the noobs could still be in control of their cars and not wreck anybody else(well, unintentionally anyways), but they wouldn't win anything either. That might actually improve the overall quality of racing. Once people using the beginner mode maxed out the potential of the hobbled cars their only option would be to start losing aids if they wanted to improve any further.

Have you ever tried to get a friend of yours visiting your house into sim-racing? They spin off at the first turn, look at you like you're crazy, and leave making some excuse about forgeting to turn their oven off or something. Only once, since I started doing this, did I have a friend who spun off at the first corner and grinned a big manic grin like I did at first because it meant I was in for a real challenge.

Sim-racing isn't really that hard, it just takes some practice. The sim-racing community overall isn't very big, but there are a lot of racing fans out there who may well love it. They just need to be eased into it. If there is one thing we can't get enough of is real, serious race fans who are intersted in real, serious (virtual) racing. Even if they know perfectly well how to drive a real race-car, it takes a good bit of adjusting to drive in a simulator- again, anything to make the process quicker and easier is a Good Thing.

Love,
Aero

ed: Oh, since we've gone that way. I hear the Frex shifter is pretty good, and Thomas has one too. A little expensive, of course, but supposedly quality. I can't even afford a G25 right now though, so I wouldn't know from first-hand experience. ;)

[Bodhidharmazen]

If patch Y is weeding out the retards then it's probably the best thing that can happen in LFS.

LOL, pretty emotional response.. now, where are your arguments? did you read mine? :scratchch

[lizardfolk]

LOL, pretty emotional response.. now, where are your arguments? did you read mine? :scratchch

Lets see, did you bother to read my 3 posts? :scratchch

[Bodhidharmazen]

I dont know...logic dictates that if you cannot handle the realism of any good racing simulation, then you should stick to crappy street racing games like NFS. This game was labeled as a simulation and will be developed as such. End of story

Well. I refuse to. Please read a bit other posts in which I argue about the realism, its implications and the denial in which some fanboys live.

Shift+P???

Custom views???

Realist, sure.

[blackbird04217]

LFS its A GAME, it isolates a handfull of variables and try to depict a "accurate model" of reality. Why would you, and others, stand for the "realism" of a game that allows you to have custom views? (for instance).

LFS is a SIMULATOR not a GAME... There are tons of arguments about this.




Than you for bringing arguments to the table. That said, do you honestly believe that LFS is a fair simulation? Do you know the number of variables that are completely out of the modeling? Will you admit that there are more variables left out that the ones that are included?

It is also a work in progress that is doing a great job. And yes I can believe I am in a real car when using LFS as a simulator. To do this you need to rid yourself of ALL distractions; TV, phone, pets, IM's anything that can break your focus. It feels very real, although there are somethings that still need work and there will be things that you can't get without being in a full motion simulator apparatus like the SMX things, this is due to feeling movement. All else said LFS is the closest thing, and it includes fast and slow cars alike which makes it great fun for those who want to know what their car "might" feel like at the limits.

I use the term "might" because their car may way more/less, balance may be different, power, tires, etc the list goes on...

[Bodhidharmazen]

There are lot of people online racing, some do share their setups, some do share their knowledge of how to improve set to suit your driving, some even can help you drive faster so there you have your team.
You can also gather few mechanic friends and do some session where you tell them what you like to adjust and they can do it for you, so actually it is not missing, it is just how creative you like to be?

Still it is in Alpha stage, not all parts of sim are developing same speed, now we had few thing improved towards more realism, later some other parts, eventually it will have all realistic things. This is where many seem to fail their conclusions as they treat LFS as finished product, it is not.

Thanks for your answer. Clean, direct, with no negative emotions involved. :D I do belong to a community in here, and I have learned a lot in the six months I have with my S2.

[lizardfolk]

Well. I refuse to. Please read a bit other posts in which I argue about the realism, its implications and the denial in which some fanboys live.

Shift+P???

Custom views???

Realist, sure.


Just because a game's "realism" model is not complete or "missing variable" doesn't mean we have to remove everything that would be considered realistic and resort to an arcade game.

Ya u sure read my post -_-

[JTbo]

Well. I refuse to. Please read a bit other posts in which I argue about the realism, its implications and the denial in which some fanboys live.

Shift+P???

Custom views???

Realist, sure.

I have already replied to these arguments of yours, Alpha version, not finished yet, all parts are not developing at same speed, but it looks to me that you have make up your mind and even if you would see that sky is blue you still would argue that it is red, so I'm off from this discussion.

Edit: crossposting....

[Bodhidharmazen]

I have already replied to these arguments of yours, Alpha version, not finished yet, all parts are not developing at same speed, but it looks to me that you have make up your mind and even if you would see that sky is blue you still would argue that it is red, so I'm off from this discussion.

Those are good points, thanks and cya in another thread.

[VoiD]

... do you believe they are as good as to make you believe you are racing a real car?...

That is the point IMO. It´s all about personal taste/likes/dislikes.

For me LFS does a good job. To be more precese: the best job, compared to all the other racing-titles.

[Gil07]

Well. I refuse to. Please read a bit other posts in which I argue about the realism, its implications and the denial in which some fanboys live.

Shift+P???

Custom views???

Realist, sure.

I'd love shift-P and shift-S and rejoin to be removed, or at least as a server option... But that's for later ;)

[niall09]

Do I change gear right... I assume I do since I never burn the clutch out.

Release throttle > Press Clutch > Shiftup > Release clutch > Back on throttle

Yes, thats right :thumb:

[bbman]

I'd love shift-P and shift-S and rejoin to be removed, or at least as a server option... But that's for later ;)

I'd like to have it just shrunken down to one option while racing: abandon race (which is equivalent to spectate)... What you do from there is up to you...

[Meanie]

Wow, didnt even know that! So.. we pay even 22% for the eh.. extended value of good delivery eh... :(

You shouldn't complain, really.

For "protection reasons" (even though we don't develop any of that kind of technology) to our "national industry" here in Brazil you're looking at about 80% of tax applied OVER THE WHOLE ORDER, product + shipping (and it's expensive to ship products over here).

On top of that, our currency is really weak, so, ehh...
It gets "kinda" hard to get a "quality setup" over here, hehe.

[tucker_98]

I understand that many people with a full license love and support the new update.

On the otherhand, demo drivers are suffering from it, go ahead and flame me if you like for using demo, the money just got transferred into my paypal account to buy a full S2 license, after this update and seeing the demo fall to pieces I will be using the money on something else.

Not dissing the game or anything, but with x39 it was probobly one of the best simulators I have ever played (Probobly cost me some of my education, if you know what I mean :thumb:), but the patch for the demo version is definately not something most demo users wanted to see.

Clutches braking, no xrt, rev limiters, no color change, deleting of all set ups... The list goes on.

Props to updating the full s2 version, but IMO I think the demo has been ruined. Oh well, plenty of good memories.

Anyone else have a "demo-related" opinion?

Go ahead, I have my flame-gear on :shy:

[Boris Lozac]

WTF???!! Is there an end to this?! My god, how i wish i was a Mod right now!:schwitz:

[unseen]

go ahead and flame me if you like for using demo

Nobody is ever going to flame you just for playing the demo :)

[Zachary Zoomy]

not another thread.

your sets are still there, and whats the issue with skins?

yes, the demo may have been ruined, but remember, a demo is a taste of the full meal, and the devs just thought there was too much food already on the plate.

[Jakg]

The setups and colours are all still there, it's just that everything is slowly being re-organised - Setups now go in the setups folder rather than settings, and the prefix is now the three letter tag (ie "FXO_") rather than a really long name (ie "FXO Turbo_").

There is an app which will convert all your setups names and move them for you by Ian.H if you look.

[tucker_98]

WTF???!! Is there an end to this?! My god, how i wish i was a Mod right now!:schwitz:

If you were a mod, you welcome to be my guest and ban me.

Just expressing my opinion that not all drivers are benefiting from the update. For those who are, congrats, for those who arn't, I know exactly how you feel.

[hrtburnout]

...if you look...

That's the problem. Most whiners don't even look for a solution to their problems, they just whine and expect us to explain everything. :shrug:

[tucker_98]

The setups and colours are all still there, it's just that everything is slowly being re-organised - Setups now go in the setups folder rather than settings, and the prefix is now the three letter tag (ie "FXO_") rather than a really long name (ie "FXO Turbo_").

There is an app which will convert all your setups names and move them for you by Ian.H if you look.

Thanks :)

[deggis]

Anyone else have a "demo-related" opinion?
No, it's pretty dead subject currently as you can see from the first page of this forum.

[Blues]

but IMO I think the demo has been ruined.

So...then spend some money on S2, and your demo-problems will go away...

[axus]

Clutches braking, no xrt, rev limiters, no color change

Yeah, if you don't like realism, you're probably better off spending your money on something else: GT5 or Forza 2 or something to that effect that has realisticish handling but without the rawness of a sim. :)

deleting of all set ups... The list goes on.

The naming format was changed (with good reason - servers were having troubles with it). It's one of those sooner rather than later things. There's a tool that can fix it in the Unofficial Addons section though. :)

[ghost racer]

I use and mouse and kb and haven't burnt one since patch Y

[tucker_98]

That's the problem. Most whiners don't even look for a solution to their problems, they just whine and expect us to explain everything. :shrug:

Thank you for your positive input, and causing people to scroll through this crap.

[DeKo]

I understand that many people with a full license love and support the new update.

On the otherhand, demo drivers are suffering from it, go ahead and flame me if you like for using demo, the money just got transferred into my paypal account to buy a full S2 license, after this update and seeing the demo fall to pieces I will be using the money on something else.

Not dissing the game or anything, but with x39 it was probobly one of the best simulators I have ever played (Probobly cost me some of my education, if you know what I mean :thumb:), but the patch for the demo version is definately not something most demo users wanted to see.

Clutches braking, no xrt, rev limiters, no color change, deleting of all set ups... The list goes on.

Props to updating the full s2 version, but IMO I think the demo has been ruined. Oh well, plenty of good memories.

Anyone else have a "demo-related" opinion?

Go ahead, I have my flame-gear on :shy:

Right, you were going to buy S2, but because the DEMO changed you are no longer wanting to buy S2? The XRT is in the full game, incase you didnt know. The clutches are fine, you can change colours and you can recover your sets, even though they are pretty much useless with the rev limiter changes and the other physics changes. And the rev limiters are for the better, how many small 1.3 litre engined cars (think clio's, fiesta's) did you know that revved to 10k rpm anyway?

[Bodhidharmazen]

I'd like to have it just shrunken down to one option while racing: abandon race (which is equivalent to spectate)... What you do from there is up to you...

Hmm. No. Not real at all. If something goes wrong (you crash, clutch is burned, a tyre explodes... your car should remain exactly where it should be. ITS A SIMULATION REMEMBER?

What it should be done its that at some point your car is taken out of the track slowly, and from there you should walk to the pits in order to be able to be a spectator, or get out of the SIMULATION.

If you get out of the SIMULATION without walking to pits then you should loose the hability to search servers and etc. Punishment for anyone who do not think that LFS ITS A S I M U L A T I O N

[Rappa Z]

The demo may have been ruined, but i say, S2 is better than ever. You might still want to consider buying it.

BTW, you won't get flamed because you are one of the first demo racers to come in and not be screaming like you were shot.

[tucker_98]

Its become aparent to me that I probobly wasted my time by making this thread, as 3/4 of the replies so far are irrelevent and the result of people thinking they are witty.

Any educated responses are welcome. Or, a mod can lock this up and you will never hear from me again, and I'm sure I will see future flaming from this sentence... Posted for shared opinions, not abuse, oh well...

Thank-you for anyone making a good input.

[XCNuse]

Good Lord you guys respond to fast.. threads merged.
And unfortunately still trying to merge.

[Lateralus]

the money just got transferred into my paypal account to buy a full S2 license, after this update and seeing the demo fall to pieces I will be using the money on something else.

This makes absolutely no sense. If you were buying an S2 license anyway, what difference does it make to you what changes were made to the demo?

It seems likely that you're just lying about planning to buy S2 in some ill-conceived threat to retract your intended purchase.

Guess what? No one here is falling for that. One lost sale is insignificant. The rest of us reasonable people will go right on driving this fantastic sim, the community will continue to grow, and we'll all laugh at the foolishness on the part of a few people who refuse to accept any change in an evolving racing sim.

There's the door. No one will miss you.

[unseen]

Good Lord you guys respond to fast.. threads merged.
And unfortunately still trying to merge.

It`s gonna be a looooooong night XC. Good luck ;)

[titanLS]

Patch Y has turned this forum into a wasteland of re-hashed and completely unfounded complaints... Seriously people, it's getting old.

[tucker_98]

The demo may have been ruined, but i say, S2 is better than ever. You might still want to consider buying it.

BTW, you won't get flamed because you are one of the first demo racers to come in and not be screaming like you were shot.

I am still considering buying the full version, I just had some of my pride damaged since I previously had so much fun in the demo haha.

[Bodhidharmazen]

Yeah, if you don't like realism, you're probably better off spending your money on something else: GT5 or Forza 2 or something to that effect that has realisticish handling but without the rawness of a sim. :)

Read my previous post. :D You DONT LIKE REALISM, because you have a very selective (biased) point of view regarding which features you like (because they are realist) and which you dont (because you dont want to see them). :scratchch

[DeKo]

Its become aparent to me that I probobly wasted my time by making this thread, as 3/4 of the replies so far are irrelevent and the result of people thinking they are witty.

Any educated responses are welcome. Or, a mod can lock this up and you will never hear from me again, and I'm sure I will see future flaming from this sentence... Posted for shared opinions, not abuse, oh well...

Thank-you for anyone making a good input.

Right, you were going to buy S2, but because the DEMO changed you are no longer wanting to buy S2? The XRT is in the full game, incase you didnt know. The clutches are fine, you can change colours and you can recover your sets, even though they are pretty much useless with the rev limiter changes and the other physics changes. And the rev limiters are for the better, how many small 1.3 litre engined cars (think clio's, fiesta's) did you know that revved to 10k rpm anyway?

and another thing, you said X39 was fine, X39 basically is patch Y.

[Eleanor SpeedGT]

Yea all whiner, hear this: WE DONT MISS YOU!

[spankmeyer]

I understand that many people with a full license love and support the new update.

On the otherhand, demo drivers are suffering from it, go ahead and flame me if you like for using demo, the money just got transferred into my paypal account to buy a full S2 license, after this update and seeing the demo fall to pieces I will be using the money on something else.

Not dissing the game or anything, but with x39 it was probobly one of the best simulators I have ever played (Probobly cost me some of my education, if you know what I mean :thumb:), but the patch for the demo version is definately not something most demo users wanted to see.

Clutches braking, no xrt, rev limiters, no color change, deleting of all set ups... The list goes on.

Props to updating the full s2 version, but IMO I think the demo has been ruined. Oh well, plenty of good memories.

Anyone else have a "demo-related" opinion?

Go ahead, I have my flame-gear on :shy:

Don't worry, no-ones going to flame you for expressing your opinion in a calm and understandable manner.

Though someone might burp you a bit with a flame thrower for making yet another duplicate thread of a similar subject.

Demo has not fallen to pieces nor has it been ruined. Matter of fact is, it's completely free content and what it's meant to do is showcase, demonstrate and preview the full content of what LFS has to offer.

On that note removing the XRT from the demo and replacing it with an open wheeler was a very good decision - both community and business wise.

It's in the Live For Speed EULA (which just might be the shortest and most comprehensible EULA ever written) that the devs have the right to alter content as they see fit. And forgive me, but why would you want to keep your sets that would only make you slower with the improved physics? :confused:

[Eleanor SpeedGT]

I am still considering buying the full version, I just had some of my pride damaged since I previously had so much fun in the demo haha.

Well then you have much more fun in S2, no?

[tucker_98]

This makes absolutely no sense. If you were buying an S2 license anyway, what difference does it make to you what changes were made to the demo?

It seems likely that you're just lying about planning to buy S2 in some ill-conceived threat to retract your intended purchase.

Guess what? No one here is falling for that. One lost sale is insignificant. The rest of us reasonable people will go right on driving this fantastic sim, the community will continue to grow, and we'll all laugh at the foolishness on the part of a few people who refuse to accept any change in an evolving racing sim.

There's the door. No one will miss you.

Well, I guess I'll leave this thread alone. Maybe someday if the world is to your liking everyone will have their lips sewn shut so that no opinions can ever be voiced. Thank you for accusing me of "lieing" about purchasing the game, makes you seem all the more educated.

Well I guess I started a snake-pit of sorts with this post, I'll leave it alone and let the flamers continue you brew out of control... You people are the problem, not the update, not demo racers.

[Lateralus]

And forgive me, but why would you want to keep your sets that would only make you slower with the improved physics? :confused:


This is off-topic, but my old setups are good bases on which to construct new setups. A little tweaking of the gear ratios has turned a few of my old FOX setups into pretty good new ones in only a few minutes. It's a lot easier to tweak a basic setup than it is to start from scratch.

[tucker_98]

Well then you have much more fun in S2, no?

Very possible that I would, if I do purchase it I will let you know how it goes :).

I was just afraid that the game will get closer to being more grip related... Which the game is intended to be really, I just enjoyed the idea of drifting as I know I will never have the funds to be able to try it myself at this level.

[Eleanor SpeedGT]

Well, I guess I'll leave this thread alone. Maybe someday if the world is to your liking everyone will have their lips sewn shut so that no opinions can ever be voiced. Thank you for accusing me of "lieing" about purchasing the game, makes you seem all the more educated.

Well I guess I started a snake-pit of sorts with this post, I'll leave it alone and let the flamers continue you brew out of control... You people are the problem, not the update, not demo racers.

LOL dude you are speaking against to you, now patch is good suddenly for you? Haha ur funny :)

[DeKo]

Very possible that I would, if I do purchase it I will let you know how it goes :).

I was just afraid that the game will get closer to being more grip related... Which the game is intended to be really, I just enjoyed the idea of drifting as I know I will never have the funds to be able to try it myself at this level.

I assure you, there are still plenty of drift servers sitting at the top of the server browser, with a much larger selection of cars than just the XRT :)

[Lateralus]

Well, I guess I'll leave this thread alone. Maybe someday if the world is to your liking everyone will have their lips sewn shut so that no opinions can ever be voiced. Thank you for accusing me of "lieing" about purchasing the game, makes you seem all the more educated.

Well I guess I started a snake-pit of sorts with this post, I'll leave it alone and let the flamers continue you brew out of control... You people are the problem, not the update, not demo racers.

It's spelled "lying".

More than once now you've said you're leaving and won't post again, yet here you are.

Once again, there's the door. No one will miss you. Everyone here is laughing at you.

[hrtburnout]

Thank you for your positive input, and causing people to scroll through this crap.

Positive or not, it's the truth.

[JTbo]

Hmm. No. Not real at all. If something goes wrong (you crash, clutch is burned, a tyre explodes... your car should remain exactly where it should be. ITS A SIMULATION REMEMBER?

What it should be done its that at some point your car is taken out of the track slowly, and from there you should walk to the pits in order to be able to be a spectator, or get out of the SIMULATION.

If you get out of the SIMULATION without walking to pits then you should loose the hability to search servers and etc. Punishment for anyone who do not think that LFS ITS A S I M U L A T I O N

Actually I would not mind for most of features you listed, but don't you think there is other shades of gray than white and black?

Unfortainly there are some gameplay related things that we must accept, but hopefully it is kept as real as possible. Tire temps, wear, mechanical issues, like clutch temp etc. are things that do affect racing a lot, searching servers is not affecting to racing as racing is pretty much same with or without it, that affects to gameplay and many of realism elitist like myself are wishing racing to be as real as possible.

That is why cars should be left on track and removed with realistic speed and so on :)

Today I won race even I was slower, because my opponent melt his tires ;)

[Cash_FLow]

I assure you, there are still plenty of drift servers sitting at the top of the server browser, with a much larger selection of cars than just the XRT :)

Yp i agree im driftin often on S2 and you can drift with:XRG,XRT,LX4,LX6,RB4,FXO,FZ5,RAC on average servers!
so if you like drifting youll like s2 a lot! also have racing that are really competitive!

[squidhead]

just went out for some drifting in Fern Bay at Team Orange server...
funny enough, nobody is complaining about the clutch...(or the lack of XRT in demo for that matter)...
We have agreed that we all should get used to the rev limiter and the clutch heat, that's all...

(its easy to do...)

[StewartFisher]

I was just afraid that the game will get closer to being more grip related... Which the game is intended to be really, I just enjoyed the idea of drifting as I know I will never have the funds to be able to try it myself at this level.What on earth are you talking about? LFS isn't getting more 'grip related' (whatever that actually means), it's getting closer to a realistic vehicle simulator. That means that it's always getting closer to becoming the best racing simulator and the best drifting simulator all the time...as far as I'm aware Scawen is concerned with pure vehicle physics, not 'drift' or 'grip'.

[farcar]

...the money just got transferred into my paypal account to buy a full S2 license, after this update and seeing the demo fall to pieces I will be using the money on something else.

That makes about as much sense as purple monkey dishwasher.
:D

[bbman]

Hmm. No. Not real at all. If something goes wrong (you crash, clutch is burned, a tyre explodes... your car should remain exactly where it should be. ITS A SIMULATION REMEMBER?

What it should be done its that at some point your car is taken out of the track slowly, and from there you should walk to the pits in order to be able to be a spectator, or get out of the SIMULATION.

If you get out of the SIMULATION without walking to pits then you should loose the hability to search servers and etc. Punishment for anyone who do not think that LFS ITS A S I M U L A T I O N

I didn't say anything about the car vanishing with pressing the button, did I? Because I'd love for it to stay in the way for some time (and maybe causing some full track yellows) before it gets removed... :razz: In this time you'd be prevented from rejoining, of course... As for the walking, that'll be unnecessary...

[Bodhidharmazen]

I didn't say anything about the car vanishing with pressing the button, did I? Because I'd love for it to stay in the way for some time

Well, of course, thats the whole point of a hard core simulation. But in its current incarnation LFS has some good, well executed aspects, and some others that are a shame, like Shift+P, Custom Views, car deformation physics, damage model, graphics (real time lights and shadows, textures, bump mapping, etc) and more.

So, my argument goes this way (for all the "iiits aa simuullaatioonn duudddeeee") go cry about the realism elsewhere, if you are REALLY that interested in getting out a simulator from LFS ASK FOR IT! DEMAND IT, and stop applauding blindly everything that its going on.

If you don't drive with a proper control, YOU ARE NOT PLAYING A SIMULATION, and the clutch is USELESS (in simulation terms) if you DONT HAVE ONE.

Now, for the ones who actually read arguments and doesn't resort to cheap insults everytime someone questions some of the changes in this new version... argumented points of view are welcomed. :thumb:

[ajp71]

So, my argument goes this way (for all the "iiits aa simuullaatioonn duudddeeee") go cry about the realism elsewhere, if you are REALLY that interested in getting out a simulator from LFS ASK FOR IT! DEMAND IT, and stop applauding blindly everything that its going on.

I'm currently quite happy with sitting back and letting Scawen decide where to go seeing as he's delivering exactly what it said on the tin. You however are going to have to do some serious moaning if you want an arcade mode ;)

[Bodhidharmazen]

I'm currently quite happy with sitting back and letting Scawen decide where to go seeing as he's delivering exactly what it said on the tin. You however are going to have to do some serious moaning if you want an arcade mode ;)

I know, and all the problem here is the word "arcade". Big mistake from my part knowing I'm in a hard core community of fans.

That said, my arguments are the important thing, forget about how you call it. "Strict Simulation" for those who have wheel with three pedals and a stick, "Mode 2" for those of us who don't have a way to give the REALISTIC INPUT a clutch needs.. and so on.

The STRICT SIMULATION mode should not include shift+p and other things that are simply wrong in current incarnation.


... I just tried the patch a bit more and can't help but noticing something... what happened to the digital speedo???? GUESS ITS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR A REALISTIC SIMULAAATOOOR!!!!!!!!!! :scratchch

[JJ72]

A game with options for hard core gamers, with proper setups (wheel with clutch at a minimum) and another, with the same basic rules behind it but that would allow us to simply drive, without being worried about things like clutches (because we don't have enough interest to buy the appropriate gear).

Thats not a lot to ask for.

Well then it wouldn't be "hardcore" ain't it?

and in the current LFS if you turn on auto clutch, you don't have to worry about clutch damage as well.

You do realize your definition of what is the right amount of realism is just your individual opinion?

[JJ72]

"Mode 2" for those of us who don't have a way to give the REALISTIC INPUT a clutch needs.. and so on.

There's already such driver's aid to help those who don't.

Why there's a need to have two seperate modes when you can perfectly customize what you want? if you don't want to deal with setups, find a bunch of mates and get a one make race going, if you find resetting weird and unrealistic, then go to a server without reset, I mean why categorize these settings into "hardcore" and "softcore" when everyone has their own preferences?

And really the clutch thing is just like tire wear, it's part of driving. It's nothing to do with the engineers and designers, it's part of the job for the drivers to take care of them.

[Bodhidharmazen]

You do realize your definition of what is the right amount of realism is just your individual opinion?

Now, thats a good point, thanks for bring in it. Do you realize that EVERYONE'S definition of the right amount of "realism"... its THEIR INDIVIDUAL OPINION??? Yep, including Scawen. :nod:

[JJ72]

Scawen MADE THIS GAME.

So What's wrong with him making his game base on his definition of realism?



you are free to realize your dream in your simulation as well, if you have the gift, time and resource.

You CAN express your opinion, but LFS has never been a democracy, although there are always things that seems obvious which has not been solved in LFS yet, there are also alot of new features and the devs had brought out and surprised us, so it's a fair dictatorship that yields good result.

Getting back to the argument itself I still can't see why categorizing such preferences will improve the experience over the current model.

[chanoman315]

i think this thread its gonna go out of control... in less than 11 hours :nod:

[Bodhidharmazen]

You CAN express your opinion, but LFS has never been a democracy...

... Getting back to the argument itself I still can't see why categorizing such preferences will improve the experience over the current model.

Both points taken, you are right, its not a democracy, and yes, Im only venting MY opinion. But who knows, maybe the developers take, from time to time, ideas from their users, because several heads think better than one. :D

[srdsprinter]

Aside from the ocassional refreshing demo-racer post who appreciates the FBM, or has bought S1/S2, this thread (and all like it) is really going nowhere. Everything needed to be said for both sides was stated within the first few hours of Y being out.

I propose all future posts need to be reserved for witty one-liners from forum regulars who have somehow managed to steer clear from this deluge of conflict... :shrug:

[MyBoss]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade




Thats like asking valve to make one noob version and one hardcore version of Counter Strike. Not going to happen.

[Bodhidharmazen]

Thats like asking valve to make one noob version and one hardcore version of Counter Strike. Not going to happen.

And going to a final release seems equally difficult. :razz:

[srdsprinter]

And going to a final release seems equally difficult. :razz:
What are you trying to accomplish exactly?

From the polls you've seen you are in the very small minority that are having trouble/dislike the patch. You've read the EULA which basically spells out your going fundamentally against what LFS is and is moving towards.

So what do you realistically want to happen???

[lizardfolk]

do you go from CounterStrike to Halo and ask the Halo devs to change their game to play like CounterStrike? :shrug: Logic people logic

This game is a simulation. Which means that the devs are trying to make this game AS REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE.

Since this isn't Need for Speed, an arcade mode is not a goal that the devs have in mind. They want to appeal to the racing enthusiasts audience and not the average "I just want to play a racing game every now and then" person.

If you are not a racing enthusiasts than maybe you're playing the wrong game.

The devs want to achieve the most realistic racing game. This is a independent variable to the game's current status.

[mattlikespeoples]

After trudging though this thread it seems like some people get it and some people dont. I'd atleast like to think I do.

Live for Speed is aiming to simulate realistically as many aspects of racing/driving (or drifting and cruising if that fancies you) as possible. The devs are just a small handful of guys putting long hours of coding, research, blood, sweat and maybe even tears to perfect thier creation. People that haven't paid for the game are not going to influence anyone. People that have paid for the game rarely will influence anyone and 'anyone' most likely isnt going to be one of the devs.

As said before, if you do not like the changes that improve LFS as a simulation then perhaps LFS wasn't what you were really looking for. Forza 2 is a wonderful game for the 360. The whole GT series can be fun and challenging. Both have aspects of simulation but aren't "hardcore".

Heck, even the simbin games can be halfway decent but when it comes down to it LFS just feels so natural. Things happen as they should. Drive too agressively and whoops, there go your tires. Flatshifting or just shifting poorly? tisk tisk...the napalm gremlins will gladly disable your clutch in a hurry.

LFS shall not pander to those using non-car-like means of controlling the cars in the game.
LFS shall not pander to the complaints of demo users unless something is actually wrong with the fundamentals of the game itself.
LFS shall not pander to those who, while even using a wheel in S2, cannot comprehend the processes used in properly propelling your vehicle of choice through space. (well, this isn't Live for Space...but that'd be cool:razz:)

[srdsprinter]

(well, this isn't Live for Space...but that'd be cool:razz:)
I don't do Sig quotes... but this needs to be written down and passed on to the next generation!! :D

[Bodhidharmazen]

So what do you realistically want to happen???

Exactly what is happening. People talking about it, discussing it. That we, the community of LFS, grow as a group. In the end is a personal decision. Do I like the game as it is now? Do I like where is going? Do I blindly support the developers or do I want them to listen to their customers?

Such kind of questions lie all around, of course, not only in this thread, and that keeps us motivated and enjoying/demanding a better game.

[Bodhidharmazen]

This game is a simulation. Which means that the devs are trying to make this game AS REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE.


Live for Speed is aiming to simulate realistically as many aspects of racing/driving (or drifting and cruising if that fancies you) as possible.

Right, thats the mantra some people have learned and repeat over and over. I will also repeat my words: What about custom views, what about Shift+P, what about the lousy physics when you crash? what about a proper damage model?

Some of you react when somebody like me dares to question things, but I have not seen a lot of complains for something as (excuse me) lame as a Shift+P... in a S I M U L A T O R.

[srdsprinter]

Exactly what is happening. People talking about it, discussing it. That we, the community of LFS, grow as a group. In the end is a personal decision. Do I like the game as it is now? Do I like where is going? Do I blindly support the developers or do I want them to listen to their customers?

Such kind of questions lie all around, of course, not only in this thread, and that keeps us motivated and enjoying/demanding a better game.
But yet all you do is bitch and moan in every one of your posts without offering anything constructive.

And the "discussions" starting within minutes of the patch being released, when Clearly people had not gave it a chance.

The "growing" of which you speak, is what exactly? Dumbing down LFS so its just another run-of-the-mill crap racing game? No thanks. Thats all you really want, is it not?

The only motivation I have to stay here is so the dev's don't here only this negative moaning, as the true LFS base is out there loving LFS racing online.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Do I blindly support the developers or do I want them to listen to their customers?


I support them because they have proven that they always listen to their customers, and that they care about what we want. If you have ever posted in the bug sections then it is likely you have been part of improving LFS. I myself posted some bugs and within a few weeks they were fixed in the next test patch. They were very minor, but it was enough to show me that no matter how small the bug, they will listen to you and try to fix it.

Anytime people have doubted them they have come out with something that shocked people. Remember those 'Nothing new for a long time' threads? Oh look a brand new (REAL) racing car, and TV coverage for LFS.

[lizardfolk]

Right, thats the mantra some people have learned and repeat over and over. I will also repeat my words: What about custom views, what about Shift+P, what about the lousy physics when you crash? what about a proper damage model?

Some of you react when somebody like me dares to question things, but I have not seen a lot of complains for something as (excuse me) lame as a Shift+P... in a S I M U L A T O R.

We keep giving a counter to that argument but you refuse to listen

READ WHAT SRDSPRINTER WROTE.

But yet all you do is bitch and moan in every one of your posts without offering anything constructive.

And the "discussions" starting within minutes of the patch being released, when Clearly people had not gave it a chance.

The "growing" of which you speak, is what exactly? Dumbing down LFS so its just another run-of-the-mill crap racing game? No thanks. Thats all you really want, is it not?

The only motivation I have to stay here is so the dev's don't here only this negative moaning, as the true LFS base is out there loving LFS racing online.

EXACTLY.

[Bodhidharmazen]

The only motivation I have to stay here is so the dev's don't here only this negative moaning, as the true LFS base is out there loving LFS racing online.

Thats nice of you, but IMO, they get A LOT more of "congrats" and "thanks" and "u roxx" than honest criticism. I get your point though, and you are right, my comments should be more constructive. Thanks for the heads up.

[Bodhidharmazen]

We keep giving a counter to that argument but you refuse to listen

Sorry about that. What is the argument to support something like Shift+P as part of a simulation?

[mattlikespeoples]

Right, thats the mantra some people have learned and repeat over and over. I will also repeat my words: What about custom views, what about Shift+P, what about the lousy physics when you crash? what about a proper damage model?

some servers have forced cockpit view. Shift P is necesary. Cant efficiently run servers if everyone is forced to have to drive back to pits. what about the people that might have crashed and flipped? Maybe we'll implement the server's own wrecker/tow option. I'd love to drift a 8000lb deisel tow truck around FE black rev...

As far as the physics go, I guess the fact that the game is still in the alpha stage explains alot. Games go like this (AFAIK): development, alpha testing, further development, beta testing, refinement, release. We're currently in the 3rd stage of 'further development'.

Proper collision detection will come in time but what are you doing running into stuff anyways?:shrug::x

[srdsprinter]

Thats nice of you, but IMO, they get A LOT more of "congrats" and "thanks" and "u roxx" than honest criticism. I get your point though, and you are right, my comments should be more constructive. Thanks for the heads up.
Just judging by the threads created in the past 2 days, the number Approving 'Y' is about equal to the number Angry with 'Y'...

But the two polls I've seen show 12% and 8% actually dissappointed/struggling with the changes.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Sorry about that. What is the argument to support something like Shift+P as part of a simulation?

The same reason you didn't spend £50 million just to get your BMW Sauber back on track after you crashed it.

[lizardfolk]

Sorry about that. What is the argument to support something like Shift+P as part of a simulation?

It's a work in progress and also, a few "unrealistic" things have to be overlooked for the convenience of the players.

But just because there's a few elements of unrealism (that IMO doesn't even matter) doesn't mean we should scrap everything that we already have that are realistic and turn it into another mediocre arcade racer.

I dont like the polarized extremes of your opinion of whether we should make it completely realistic or not realistic at all.

It is impossible to make something completely realistic, but that is by no means an excuse to not incorporate as much realism as possible

[Bodhidharmazen]

some servers have forced cockpit view. Shift P is necesary. Cant efficiently run servers if everyone is forced to have to drive back to pits. what about the people that might have crashed and flipped?

Thats realism. Thats what people use as an argument against criticism like mine. Thats why I made OBVIOUS that their argument is not really an argument, but a mantra that they have learned to repeat and put against any one daring to question things.

What does server efficiency have to do with Shift+P, care to explain it?

[Bodhidharmazen]

But the two polls I've seen show 12% and 8% actually dissappointed/struggling with the changes.

There you go. And FYI, Im not "struggling" with the new patch, in fact, I have tested it again today and its not as bad as I thought in my first 5 minutes with it... that said, yes. Im disappointed by it. And I like to express my disappointment.

[Bodhidharmazen]

The same reason you didn't spend £50 million just to get your BMW Sauber back on track after you crashed it.


:scratchch You will have to use either more words, or another example. What are you saying here?

[srdsprinter]

Thats realism. Thats what people use as an argument against criticism like mine. Thats why I made OBVIOUS that their argument is not really an argument, but a mantra that they have learned to repeat and put against any one daring to question things.

What does server efficiency have to do with Shift+P, care to explain it?

Its the balance between how much realism you can include, before the driving becomes second to the chores of racing.

i.e. Meeting Sponsers, buying safety equipment, driving to the track, checking the fluids, making yourself bulemic to shed that extra pound a la Coulthard, hitting on the pit-babes, etc are all well and good, but making you simulate them would add nothing to the experience. They would drag the whole experience down, cept maybe for the pit-babes....

Scavier has a vision of the purest racing simulator they can make. That's why they do what they do. They have the freedom to do it at their own pace, with their own priorities to that end.

I hope that kinda tells you a bit why they do what they do... :)

[ATC Quicksilver]

Thats realism. Thats what people use as an argument against criticism like mine. Thats why I made OBVIOUS that their argument is not really an argument, but a mantra that they have learned to repeat and put against any one daring to question things.

What does server efficiency have to do with Shift+P, care to explain it?


Well lets go for a very likely situation. You have spun and flipped your UF1 into the middle of the track, after you swerved around trying to work out how to change gear. Everyone else who fully understands the changes, and wants to have a fun race with their friends on a realistic racing simulation, but one that they don't have to spend 2 hours in the pit garage pushing buttons to start playing, well they are coming to lap you. Since you can't get your car back onto its wheels, and there is no safety car, then the obvious thing to do is include a button to clear your car from the track. But wait...the devs have listened to you, so that button does not exist. Oh dear...

Vote to ban Bodhidharmazen...

Banned from the server.

[lizardfolk]

Thats realism. Thats what people use as an argument against criticism like mine. Thats why I made OBVIOUS that their argument is not really an argument, but a mantra that they have learned to repeat and put against any one daring to question things.

What does server efficiency have to do with Shift+P, care to explain it?

Again. I've already offered and explanation but again you refuse to listen.

I'm too blue in the face to talk :tilt: good bye

[Bodhidharmazen]

It's a work in progress and also, a few "unrealistic" things have to be overlooked for the convenience of the players.

Interesting.. some of them yes and some of them no. And I'm free to accept them and to shout my mouth. No. Its a work in progress, granted, the only game that has taken longer time to develop is (TMK) Duke Nukem Forever, but here at least we can try (wait, we even have to pay) for an alpha version.

But just because there's a few elements of unrealism (that IMO doesn't even matter) doesn't mean we should scrap everything that we already have that are realistic and turn it into another mediocre arcade racer.

Exactly in your opinion (and most forum members for that matter). IMO there are things that require at least the same attention and NO ONE complain about them... :scratchch

I dont like the polarized extremes of your opinion of whether we should make it completely realistic or not realistic at all.

LOL! I have NEVER said anything about I want it to be not realistic at all!!! I WANT A SIMULATION, but also the option to turn off some characteristics (like for example clutch damage when I don't have a controller with clutch.

It is impossible to make something completely realistic, but that is by no means an excuse to not incorporate as much realism as possible

Then you are contradicting yourself. Why custom views? Why Shift+P? Why (etc etc etc)?

[lizardfolk]

Then you are contradicting yourself. Why custom views? Why Shift+P? Why (etc etc etc)?

What i mean by that is just because we have custom views or Shift+P. That is no excuse for the devs to say "alright that's not realistic, so we wont add clutch damage, engine damage, or ANY DAMAGE for that matter".

[srdsprinter]

Please listen/enteract with people who are trying to converse with you....

[mattlikespeoples]

Thats realism. Thats what people use as an argument against criticism like mine. Thats why I made OBVIOUS that their argument is not really an argument, but a mantra that they have learned to repeat and put against any one daring to question things.

What does server efficiency have to do with Shift+P, care to explain it?

while I understand this is my weakest point in the argument I will try my best.

Shift+P is not realistic. There is no avoiding this. It gets around the realism of needing to drive to the pits after a race/crash/whatever. On the otherhand, shift+p is not used while racing. It provides no advantage to anyone using it at pitting moves you to last place. I feel that no matter how advanced a simulation becomes it is still just that: a mathematical representation real events and for our case it's on our PC's.

Perhaps along this argument you want to virtually turn the knobs on your adjustible shocks and wrench on those pesky roll bars and magically fabricate almost infinitely variable ration gearboxes. After all, this is a simulation.

Getting OT a bit i guess. This is a racing sim. The effects of shfit+p are unrelated to the outcome of any semi-organized race on any server. thats the best I got. Perhaps a more señor member (:razz:) could explain for me what I'm trying to say

[lizardfolk]

Please listen/enteract with people who are trying to converse with you....

:nod:

[ATC Quicksilver]

I can't wait until to see your first post when S3 comes out.

"OMG I hit the back of a car when braking and now my engine goes all hot and dies?! WTF! They left in the chat system, and broken glass doesn't go in my eyes when I crash, so why make engines fail!11!?"

[Bodhidharmazen]

while I understand this is my weakest point in the argument I will try my best.

Thank you matt, I don't agree with our argument but you are a gentleman.


TO ALL:

Thank you all for your participation/discussion in this thread. I'm happy with the results and have enjoyed even the heated moments. :thumb:

Thanks and good night.

[mattlikespeoples]

the devs should all handbuild supercomputers optimized to run LFS and simulate EVERY aspect of EVERYTHING on earth then deliver them, not unlike santa, to all registered S2 users

"wtf?!?! This butterfly on the otherside of the world flapped its wings and now I iz in a hurricane while driving FE CLUB!!!!111!!1"


/perhaps unnecisary but just havin fun :)


in the end, LFS is a prgram on your computer. Come December 21, 2112, shift+p wont matter :p

[ATC Quicksilver]

"wtf?!?! This butterfly on the otherside of the world flapped its wings and now I iz in a hurricane while driving FE CLUB!!!!111!!1"

You joke but that has happened before...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaZL6Bz2fG8

[mattlikespeoples]

You joke but that has happened before...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaZL6Bz2fG8


you're just provoking mroe usage of unrealistic features.

"Holy crap!!! SHIFT+RSHIFT+RSHIFT+RSHIFT+RSHIFT+RSHIFT+R"
"Nice race"
"oops"
:D

[hamidude2006]

the new patch is crap get rid of it i want my xrt turbo back

[lizardfolk]

the new patch is crap get rid of it i want my xrt turbo back

You have the FBM. that's an OPEN WHEEL. Be grateful.

[ATC Quicksilver]

the new patch is crap get rid of it i want my xrt turbo back

Congratulations on your first ever post on this forum, after being signed up for over a year. Since you have not paid for the XRT, I don't think you can claim to own it. Back into your little stereotype box with you methinks.

[danben7]

"Hardcore" is a term used often by those who don't like driving aids removed or who think the sim is really "just for fun", when they refer to changes that promote realism and make the driving more of a skill than a knack. When you look at the huge body of racing titles that have been made for PC, LFS leans towards the "hardcore" direction as opposed to the "arcade" direction. The term isn't perfect, but is easy to interpret in context. :)

oh i just meant, the game is a sim. So any game labelled a sim to me should be as realistic as possible. the more realistic the game is i'd say the more "normal" it is, not hardcore, just real :D

[Hankstar]

the new patch is crap get rid of it i want my xrt turbo backCan I getta LOL?

Once you've paid for something, then you can claim that you own it and be entitled to complain about it and expect people to listen - if your complaint is actually valid. Since you're trying what's basically a free sample, I'm afraid it's just tough luck mate :shrug:

On topic: I'm surprised to see such strong resistance from an experienced licensed user. I have a two-pedal wheel setup and I've had to re-adjust to a few things myself but I welcome it. I won't repeat other peoples' arguments - not least because they don't seem to be sinking in - but I will say Patch Y is one the best forward steps this game has made since some friends turned me on to it in 2003.

[Impreza WRX]

Live for Speed has been a simulator since the 0.04 days, and it will stay that way.

In any case, go read my new DRIVER TIPS thread in the newbie forum about how to keep your clutch alive!

[Venus]

I'm going over to rFactor... this has been ruined now. Fox feels dead now. :really:

[Simpson]

Fox feels dead now. :really:
yeap, FOX + AS Club is not the same :(

[niall09]

Good to see you, pussy...

Bye! :wave:

[danowat]

Byeeee.....don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out :)

Actually RACING, not chasing lap records or hotlapping HAS NOT changed, it's the same as it ever was.

Enjoy rF :)

[hrtburnout]

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

You won't be missed.

[mkinnov8]

I'm going over to rFactor... this has been ruined now. Fox feels dead now. :really:

Fox feels more like it should have for a long time, tip, try something else, go off for a while, you will always return to lfs.

yeap, FOX + AS Club is not the same :(

Thats right, its quite different, but thats not a bad thing. Why not try another track or car, or both!

[ajp71]

Thanks

Slight problem there is the only well modeled single seater for rFactor is the W196 and if you find the FOX frustrating because you're an arcade wimp you won't like it ;)

Also note despite their other flaws the rF3 and rTrainer both have realistically heavy engines like the FOX has been given so it won't solve your problem anyway.

Bye :wave:

[ImportFantasy]

Bye,you wont be missed!:nod:

[Hurley24]

ok like the title says i don't really like the new patch.............now that said, i love that you can stall your car and i love that tracks are now fixed up, but i hate how the XRT is now S1. I know a lot of fellow demo users are not to happy and have just stoped playing because they don't have the money to pay for a S1 or S2/or don't have a way to pay for it. Its cool how there is an F1 car for us but not every one who pays the game is a hard core racing game player, alot of people out there love drifting in this game..........all im saying is please bring the XRT back to demo users:thumb:

[JohnUK89]

but not every one who pays the game is a hard core racing game player, alot of people out there love drifting in this game

How very true. And others that pay for it, like me, enjoy racing, and the added realism of Patch Y ;)

[jayhawk]

Too many threads on this subject...please refrain from doing it again.

[Dillyracer]

No, you are not getting the car back and stop acting like you can make an opinion when you don't support LFS.

[joen]

Thread will fail to deliver.


because they don't have the money to pay for a S1 or S2/or don't have a way to pay for it

Argument not valid. Cannot compute.

[Dillyracer]

Thread will fail to deliver.


Argument not valid. Cannot compute.

I can not pay for a Ferarri, FERARRI SUCKS

[VoiD]

Nothing new in here.
Please close it.

[JJ72]

yet another thread?

you know if you can't pay for it anyway......we don't really care if you play the demo or not, we have no lost.

[ATC Quicksilver]

New avatar, attack! Seriously, £12 for S1 license. Then you can have auto skin downloads and new tracks to drift on!

[Töki (HUN)]

New avatar, attack! Seriously, £12 for S1 license. Then you can have auto skin downloads and new tracks to drift on!

Hahahah, nice avatar man! :D:thumb:

[srdsprinter]

I can not pay for a Ferarri, FERARRI SUCKS
:D Got to love the demo logic...

[Töki (HUN)]

Close this thread, we have other 1000 of it with the same content

[srdsprinter]

No this is great!

People who dislike patch Y: __________________ (fill in the blank)
-"need to stick to NFS"
-"are lame demo career drivers"
-"fundamentally don't understand LFS"

[BOSCHO]

the new pach is great !
i'm gonaa buy S2 license soon and drive with any car in any track i like :D

[mattlikespeoples]

the new pach is great !
i'm gonaa buy S2 license soon and drive with any car in any track i like :D


:jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop: surely he cant be serious.

Wait, he IS serious and I'll stop colling him Sherley:razz:

Thank you, Boscho, for letting me know that all hope for decent people in demo is not lost:)

edit
oh yeah, and
No this is great!

People who dislike patch Y: __________________ (fill in the blank)
A-"need to stick to NFS"
B-"are lame demo career drivers"
C-"fundamentally don't understand LFS"

i think there should be a poll for demo users to answer honestly with an "all of the above" category. Me thinks the majority of the results would be A and C

[Woz]

Is it just me or do most of the moaning/bitching come in the forms of

"Its not fait, the unrealistic way I used to drive the cars in LFS no longer works and now I have to learn to drive and not play a game."


:)

[JTbo]

Is it just me or do most of the moaning/bitching come in the forms of

"Its not fait, the unrealistic way I used to drive the cars in LFS no longer works and now I have to learn to drive and not play a game."


:)

It sure sounds that way, but also I hear such thing as "it is shite as I need to adjust to change", which is same as above that includes bit more things :)

[thsancho]

I'd just like to have the "throttle cut" for upshifting it would be a nice gesture for the DFP users , Thats my only problem with the new patch.

[Bodhidharmazen]

Is it just me or do most of the moaning/bitching come in the forms of

I posted yesterday my conclusion, but couldn't miss this one. Nope, it is not just you, is everyone who has bought that idea about LFS being a simulator. Fortunately, some of us (and please do not include me in ANY particular group) can think for ourselves and have our own idea about what LFS is.

Physics simulation is just "good" when you compare it to other sim games, and thats about it. On the other hand, it is FULL of unrealistic characteristics, some of them so lame that they should not belong to it (IF we are talking about LFS B E I N G A S I M U L A T O R).

You could read the thread in more detail if you were interested, to read ARGUMENTS, not bitching (btw, you are the one bitching here, but Im leaving that aside in my comment).

In any case, it would be good to see more developers behind LFS, and having the possibility of getting A FULL SIMULATION anytime soon.

Granted, I don't know about them, nor I understand why it has been in alpha stage for several long years.

Now, don't make a mistake. I love LFS and I like what has been done so far, but it is 1) not perfect BY FAR and 2) not as real as some of you appear to be deluded in to believe.

And just in case you can't be bothered to read some good arguments that are in here, I will tell you two things that you all should (I mean the ones who has bought the "itss a siimulaaatiooonn dduuuudeee") "bitch" about, to use one term that apparently you like.

a) What about Shift+P, how can that have its place IN A SIMULATION?

b) What about custom views? I guess thats REAL and should be included in any simulation. Right?

_____
EDIT:

BTW, LFS its a GAME. :)

[zeugnimod]

I'd just like to have the "throttle cut" for upshifting it would be a nice gesture for the DFP users , Thats my only problem with the new patch.

How would that be a gesture for DFP users? :confused:

[Gil07]

DFP users have extra heavy feet, hard to lift on upshift :thumb:

[zeugnimod]

Aah, so if I want to lose weight I should just buy a G25? :D

[Gil07]

Well, contrary to the DFP, you can actually use the G25 pedals, so you'll get at least some feet exercise.

[ATC Quicksilver]

I posted yesterday my conclusion, everyone who has bought LFS should not belong to it.

You could read the thread in more detail if you were interested, I don't understand and I appear to be deluded.

I bitch about Shift+P, and custom views. Right? :)

I decided to see if you would read this post, since you ignored everyone else explaining the difference between user interfaces and physics simulation.

[Bodhidharmazen]

I decided to see if you would read this post, since you ignored everyone else explaining the difference between user interfaces and physics simulation.

I'm astonished with your intelligence level, having to resort to childish tactics as changing my words. Now, I'm willing to believe that you capable to discuss at a rational level.

Read slowly. 10 pilots start a race. Their cars engines, tires, weight and other factors are simulated, acceleration, inertia and other forces are taken in to account to generate a positive experience for everyone.

At some point the leader looses its car and crash, its now in the center of the track and other pilots are coming fast.

QUESTION:

IF this is a simulation, and so much care has taken in order to have a proper depiction of some of the variables involved... how come the crashed car can "disappear" from the track?

I want to think that you believe your own "itss a simuulaaatiooon duuudeeee" and also that you are perfectly capable of understanding that a car disappearing its not a realistic depiction of this reality.

And we are talking about THE SIMULATION, forget about the interface. My guess? it is ok with you because you are a fanboy.

[xaotik]

IF this is a simulation, and so much care has taken in order to have a proper depiction of some of the variables involved... how come the crashed car can "disappear" from the track?

That is irrelevant to the physics simulation though, no?

[ajp71]

I'd just like to have the "throttle cut" for upshifting it would be a nice gesture for the DFP users , Thats my only problem with the new patch.

Why do you need a throttle cut for DFP pedals? There's absolutely no reason why you can't lift or blip and still have an advantage over non-wimpy G25 users. I'm heel and toeing with my DFP pedals, yes it isn't the best solution but it's still perfectly possible.

[wien]

Why do you need a throttle cut for DFP pedals? There's absolutely no reason why you can't lift or blip and still have an advantage over non-wimpy G25 users.Yeah, I really don't get it either. I can drive perfectly fine with my DFP. Lifting and blipping has become second nature at this point. Lack of a clutch doesn't excuse flatshifting. (I also use a manual button-clutch, but that probably isn't for everyone. :))

[ATC Quicksilver]

I'm childish.

:D I got bored of trying to answer your questions a few pages ago, you don't read what other people post. You keep on asking the same questions, people keep answering them, then you ask the same questions again as a response to the answers originally posted to those questions. Your like a small child that keeps saying why?

Why do we have Shift+P in a simulation?

...because its just a game, its about enjoyment, so LFS compromises on small things like that so the car physics can be as realistic as possible. Thus not putting people off by making it inaccessible.

Yeh but why have it?

...I just answered that

Why?

...what are you talking about?

yeh...BUT WHY?

[keltern]

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

I'm just going to comment on the thread.. :P

I agree with you, to the extent that I want tires that can go on and on and on..

The rest of the game, including the clutch is working fine for me atm, but I HATE that after a couple of laps of "drifting" I'm forced to go pitting or return to garage before I can have fun again.

Annoying! ^^

[wien]

I HATE that after a couple of laps of "drifting" I'm forced to go pitting or return to garage before I can have fun again.Why? One would think managing tires was a very important part of drifting in real life too? Once you start making those kind of compromises to the simulation you're squarely in arcade land.

[mattlikespeoples]

Ok, i've done some research and personally contacted the devs myself. Shift+P is perfectly realistic and simulated almost completely accurate except for the lack of visual cues.

The 'P' in the command actually doesnt refer to 'pit' but Philadelphia. You see, back in the early 1940's the US was working on a way to disguise it's ships to counteract and evade the German U-boats. Dr. Frank Reno was conducting experiments with Einstein’s Unified Field Theory and the possibilty that utilizing large amounts of electroradiation could alter gravity itself and bend light around an object thus rendering it invisible. While some accounts claim that this worked there are other accounts that claimed the experiment had unforseen consequences. The U.S.S. Eldridge was reported to have vanished in a flash of blue light during one of the trials reappeared 20 minutes later 600 miles away then teleport back to the harbor in Philly. The blue light flash has yet to be implemented

Our devs have not only given us a great racing simulator but also fitted each car with a device that can bend time and space precisely enough to teleport our cars at will to the garage. I theorize a microwave receiver flush mounted into teh body work of each vehicle that gathers the energy beamed down from space via simulated orbiting satelites with fields of solar panels that power the "Philly Boxes". These "Philly Boxes" are activated at the simple press of a button.

Now, one side effect of installing said devices is that given a hard enough shunt against a particular surface (other car, autox barrier, etc...) the device malfuntions and sends a jolt of EM radiation temporarily altering the gravity field encompassing the car randomly sending it flying in another direction.

In conclussion, every 'non simulation' aspect of LFS can be explained away with a little digging and prodding.

[keltern]

Why? One would think managing tires was a very important part of drifting in real life too? Once you start making those kind of compromises to the simulation you're squarely in arcade land.

True, but still annoying.. Often.. ;)

[ATC Quicksilver]

True, but still annoying.. Often.. ;)


Thats why you don't see 'ENDURANCE DRIFTING' events. :thumb:

[xaotik]

given a hard enough shunt against a particular surface (other car, autox barrier, etc...) the device malfuntions and sends a jolt of EM radiation temporarily altering the gravity field encompassing the car randomly sending it flying in another direction

Now that is more like it.

[Bodhidharmazen]

That is irrelevant to the physics simulation though, no?

So, real objects can vanish leaving a void that it is instantly feed it with other particles like atmosphere. :razz: You must live in another dimension. None of the known physical laws of this universe would allow such a thing.

...because its just a game, its about enjoyment,

So... finally, the voice of reason. You are not as dumb as others have made you believe. :thumb: Yes, it is a game, and its all about enjoyment. Thanks.

Ok, i've done some research and personally contacted the devs myself. Shift+P is perfectly realistic and simulated almost completely accurate except for the lack of visual cues...


:huepfenic

[JTbo]

I'm astonished with your intelligence level, having to resort to childish tactics as changing my words. Now, I'm willing to believe that you capable to discuss at a rational level.

Read slowly. 10 pilots start a race. Their cars engines, tires, weight and other factors are simulated, acceleration, inertia and other forces are taken in to account to generate a positive experience for everyone.

At some point the leader looses its car and crash, its now in the center of the track and other pilots are coming fast.

QUESTION:

IF this is a simulation, and so much care has taken in order to have a proper depiction of some of the variables involved... how come the crashed car can "disappear" from the track?

I want to think that you believe your own "itss a simuulaaatiooon duuudeeee" and also that you are perfectly capable of understanding that a car disappearing its not a realistic depiction of this reality.

And we are talking about THE SIMULATION, forget about the interface. My guess? it is ok with you because you are a fanboy.

I see you are still taking LFS as finished product and not accepting fact that it is Alpha that is not finished but still under development, I think you really should sit back and take a look from another viewpoint :)

What about if in future LFS will get system where cars do not disappear just like that, but are moved realistic way, just not at this point as even basics are under development?

When S3 is finished, then your arguments would be more valid, now it looks like that you are trying to find something that you could use as leverage in your complaints as you lost some feature that you did prefer to have :scratchch

[ATC Quicksilver]

I understand, the goal is REALISM.

Yet, the new patch should include two modes:

1) Simulation

2) Arcade

For hardcore fans, I guess, mode 1 its ok, they want to believe they are driving "the real thing".

Still, I play (PLAY) LFS because I like to drive and because I like to play. I have never liked that we have to struggle with setups, on top of that now tyres are useless and we have a clutch that forces us to be "gentle". the ARCADE mode would be as real as the SIM one, but it would not allow for setups, tyres and clutch would last forever and so we would only test our skills TO DRIVE, not to be a mechanic or to believe we are having more "realism".

Again, I like to test myself DRIVING, I like to compete with others to try my skills against theirs. THATS IT, if I want to race a car I would buy a gokart or maybe inscribe myself in a real league.

Sorry for the developers, and Im sure some of you readers will hate me and even (maybe) insult me. But anyway, Im just exposing MY opinion. :tilt:


Well I will just reply to the original post, with my last comment in this thread.

You will be dissapointed with every single new patch the devs release for LFS. The game will be going further and further away from what you want. You can complain and call us fanboys as much as you want, but at the end of the day its your own fault that you bought LFS thinking it was something it is not. I think your problem is that you realise this now, and your unhappy that you spent £24 on S2.

[Bodhidharmazen]

I see you are still taking LFS as finished product and not accepting fact that it is Alpha that is not finished but still under development, I think you really should sit back and take a look from another viewpoint :)

The thing is that Shift+P could be avoided right now, so the fact that it is still there shows that, as much as anyone wants to believe it, there factors other than reality behind its design.

[AeroMechanical]

If you're after unrelenting realism in every aspect of racing. You really ought be playing NetkarPro. Of course, it's sort of in a sorry state development-wise (maybe that will change, maybe not), but it has a hardcore mode where you have to wait while your car is towed back to the pits, you have to wait while your mechanics repair damage, you have to wait while your mechanics implement your setup changes.

Yes, that is realistic, but I think it's taking things a little too far personally. Some people swear by it though, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic sim, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing that really matters is the physical modeling of the car and the handling dynamics. Because it's simulated, we have advantages over the real world like not having to wait for all that stuff. I think that's a good thing.

You give a little, you take a little. Consult your doctor, use as directed, opinions may vary.

Love,
Aero

[Bodhidharmazen]

You will be dissapointed with every single new patch the devs release for LFS. The game will be going further and further away from what you want. You can complain and call us fanboys as much as you want, but at the end of the day its your own fault that you bought LFS thinking it was something it is not. I think your problem is that you realise this now, and your unhappy that you spent £24 on S2.

Thank you for a well reasoned post. :thumb: I'm sure you didn't read one of my posts in which I say that I LOVE this game. It is the best I have found so far.

That said, I'm not married to it, nor is easy for me to become a fan (of anything man made, but that's beyond the reach of this thread). I like to ask for things the way I like them, and I like to argue with others about it.

In resume, I do love LFS but that doesn't mean I should like every bit of it nor that I should applaud blindly everything that the developers do with it.

[Bodhidharmazen]

If you're after unrelenting realism in every aspect of racing. You really ought be playing NetkarPro... it has a hardcore mode where you have to wait while your car is towed back to the pits, you have to wait while your mechanics repair damage, you have to wait while your mechanics implement your setup changes.

Yes, that is realistic, but I think it's taking things a little too far personally. Some people swear by it though, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic sim, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing that really matters is the physical modeling of the car and the handling dynamics. Because it's simulated, we have advantages over the real world like not having to wait for all that stuff. I think that's a good thing.

You give a little, you take a little. Consult your doctor, use as directed, opinions may vary.

Love,
Aero


Thanks, good post. I believe that, in the end, its all matter of personal preferences, and thats ok!!! But I confess that I get pissed of when some people start to insult anyone who does not think EXACTLY as they do. What can I do... I'm against "fanboyism" :D

I will have to look at that game, if the physics are as good as in here I might find it appealing. :)

[AeroMechanical]

Oh I largely agree with you. I think there should be options for these sorts of things (as I'm sure you're aware, NKP has the option to disable that) and I am in total agreement that we should be expressing our opinions good or bad for the sake of the development of LFS because it is an alpha and unfinished.

Of course, it's going to turn out the way it turns out. It's obviously in some sort of in-between state right now so it's sort of hard to tell what kind of simulator it is. How realistic is it going to get? Personally I don't want it to go as far as NKP if there aren't going to be options to customize the level of realism we want per server.

I like the new gearbox, it's not perfect but it's a lot more realistic than it was. I'm indifferent about the digital gauges because I prefer the analogue variety but I don't see the harm in having them. I also don't think there is anything wrong with driving aids necessarily, so long as they can be disabled on the server. Ideally I'd like the GPL style 'fudged advantage' with the aids as well. (I think I've said all this before.)

Basically, I'm in favor of options. Of course, LFS isn't done yet though so maybe we will have these options in the future. It is true that the intended way to play it is without any of these things, so I can understand that path taking priority at the moment.

I don't see why people are getting so upset though- other than because other people are pissing them off. It'll all work out. One way or another.

Love,
Aero

ed: Oh, the physics in NKP are phenomenal it's just got a lot of other problems. Honestly, I wouldn't recommend it at the moment. Wait and see what happens with the 1.03 patch. It is, of course, very, very late in coming though. Try the demo and see what you think though.

[Yiots]

I also have a Logitech Momo(red) sequential. Since patch Y using a button for clutch is about as gay as Tom Jones in a tootoo. I didn't expect this day to come to be honest because the options for blip & lift have always been there and is all that is really needed for people with sequential wheels(without a clutch pedal) to keep racing at their full potential. I would really find it hard to believe any vehicle fitted with a sequential gear shifter would need significant lift or blip from the driver anyway?

I'm sure the clutch mechanism for H padders and sequential can be compromised, instead of forcing everyone into buying a H pad.

Please understand I want this to be as REALISTIC as possible like everyone else here, I'm sure. But a balance would be greatly appreciated from the lesser ones like me who can't live the FULL SIMULATION DREAM.

[AeroMechanical]

You really don't need a clutch to lift or blip, that's all done with the accelerator anyways. I use a sequential and it's no problem at all- I do have a clutch pedal, but that isn't necessary with autoclutch enabled nor is it necessary for cars that actually have sequential shifters. Lifting and blipping is pretty important in the real world so it fits in fine with the sim.

You'll get used to it soon enough- it'll be second-nature before you know it. They way I think about it is as if I were selecting the gear with my sequential and actually initiating the change with my foot on the pedal either lifting or blipping. It takes a bit of practice to get the rhythm down, but you'll never have to learn it again after that.

All you have to do is turn auto-clutch on and you're good to go- that takes care of the clutch pedal for you.

Love,
Aero

ed: I use the pedalset from a Logitech Formula GP (yellow) as the clutch pedal. You can buy these new online for $20US and I bet you could find an even better deal used. No need to buy a G25 or a gated shifter and no need to have a clutch pedal at all if you're willing to enable autoclutch.

To change up, just lift off the throttle (completely at first, but you'll find that isn't necessary as you get better) hit whatever control you use to up-shift and put your foot back down again.

To downshift, just give the throttle a quick jab right as, or very slightly before, you're hitting your down-shift control.

I think you'll find that once you've mastered this (which will probably only take an hour or so) it makes the driving experience much more engaging and immersive. Just start slowly and methodically and work your way up.

[seinfeld]

im disapointed with the patch, all the stuff planed for this patch was put aside to make a POS open wheeler that has noplace in lfs, there already is a low powered open weeler

so because bmw said to, you made another car and didnt fix anything that really needed fixing, the clutch is ok for the road cars, but the open wheelers and GTr's it burns out to quick imo. the tires should last longer not less