Found one performance leak

[MadCatX]

After some experimenting and thinking why LFS runs to me slower than it should I've discovered following.

When I was using official drivers for my integrated CMI9880 audio, in LFS Benchmark I got about 10-15 FPS lower results than now. Problem disapperared when I've installed UAA HD Audio driver(supplied with WinXP SP2 - thats how it seems to me). The whole secret why are these drivers faster(I can get over 100 fps when alone, before 50-60) is because they DOES NOT support EAX. I did tests with SBLive! 5.1 and got same performance drop!(to be exact, with SBLive! it was a lite faster)

--> EAX effects SLOWS LFS ON CERTAIN SYSTEMS.

EAX are in use when LFS is running, I can hear reverbed(and silly sounding) sound.

For details see http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2371

[KiDCoDEa]

wtf has your hw probs/features got to do with lfs?

[NotAnIllusion]

wtf has your hw probs/features got to do with lfs?

The relevance is that those using EAX may get unacceptable or less than average FPS. This is because EAX uses CPU resources to process info. Since LFS is already CPU intensive you can probably see where this is going. Hence, I think it's actually quite logical to post a note informing any "EAXers" out there that they may get a significant increase in FPS in LFS by disabling EAX. HTW is that not relevant (I have an EAX soundcard)? ;)

That reminds me, I haven't tested this yet because running 3 OSs with half a gig of RAM & a crappy CPU isn't going to give good results anyway when compared to when I usually play LFS.. but on SB card, wouldn't deselcting everything in the EAX Console completely disable EAX & hence be a valid workaround, instead of having to install a diff set of drivers? Especially CMSS 3D upmixing has a big effect on the sound so perhaps it's that..

[bbman]

EAX is affecting your performance in games, if you haven't got a top-notch system? REALLY? :razz:

Honestly, everyone should registered THAT a few years ago...

[GP4Flo]

But does use LFS EAX anyway? I think it uses it's own sound engine without the need of EAX.

As you wrote in your second post, the performance difference is likely due to some upmixing by the driver, so it has nothing todo with LFS.

[ATHome]

If you've got an really powerful soundcard EAX won't slow your system down, it only does on soundcards that rely on your CPU, cause they don't bring enough calculating power with them:nod:

For instance a Creative X-Fi has enough power :smileypul

[KiDCoDEa]

WTF DOES A HW FEATURE OF YOUR SYSTEM GOT TO DO WITH LFS?

next im gonna create a thread "informing" everyone to disable AA and get more fps...

and why is a hardware related thread here? not even a good one at that.

[tristancliffe]

I found a trick you might wanna know. Buy a better PC and your frame rates go up :O

[TagForce]

WTF DOES A HW FEATURE OF YOUR SYSTEM GOT TO DO WITH LFS?

next im gonna create a thread "informing" everyone to disable AA and get more fps...

and why is a hardware related thread here? not even a good one at that.

Actually it's only a problem when it's NOT a hardware feature, but done entirely in software...

Yes, you prolly should create a thread like that... Difference between this one and your thread would be you'd see/hear no difference in LFS when you disable EAX support, except in framerates. FSAA is eyecandy and you can see the difference immediately.

Is it hardware related? I can see why you'd say it's not entirely LFS related, but it's not hardware related either... It's a configuration issue... Sooooo, we need a Configuration subforum, Vic. :D

Thread was created, info was released, comments were made... Move on, peeps.

[Shotglass]

WTF DOES A HW FEATURE OF YOUR SYSTEM GOT TO DO WITH LFS?

the relevance of this is that there is no friggin setting in lfs to disable the use of eax from within the game (which implies that lfs doesnt use eax at all while apparently it does)

[spankmeyer]

I found a trick you might wanna know. Buy a better PC and your frame rates go up :O

And if you have some knowledge about PC's technical troubleshooting, you might know that a new PC sometimes introduces more problems than it fixes. There is just too many variables, cosmic radiation and divine interventions in PC world that you can never be sure.

[KiDCoDEa]

the relevance of this is that there is no friggin setting in lfs to disable the use of eax from within the game (which implies that lfs doesnt use eax at all while apparently it does)

is there a setting to turn off dx10 shaders? no.
is there a setting to turn off the guns included in the cars? no
is there a setting to turn off these stupid threads? no.
is there a setting to turn u off? no.
is there a setting to disable AA, AF ingame? no
is there a setting to turn p2p off? no
is there a setting to turn off eax, aureal3d, dolbysurround or fukin stupid prologic? no

BENFICA TURNED OFF MAN U THOUGH!

and you sexy germ, turn me on. raaaaaaaaaaaaaawwoorrrr

[96 GTS]

Dude, chill. He made a thread posting something he found, maybe it was in the wrong forum, not something worth completely flipping out over.

[NotAnIllusion]

is there a setting to turn off dx10 shaders? no.
is there a setting to turn off the guns included in the cars? no
is there a setting to turn off these stupid threads? no.
is there a setting to turn u off? no.
is there a setting to disable AA, AF ingame? no
is there a setting to turn p2p off? no
is there a setting to turn off eax, aureal3d, dolbysurround or fukin stupid prologic? no

BENFICA TURNED OFF MAN U THOUGH!

and you sexy germ, turn me on. raaaaaaaaaaaaaawwoorrrr

Yea there isn't, but it's a bit retarded on your part to spam a legitimate discussion. Thank you. Your effort has made much improvement in LFSing. Now please shut up if you have nothing constructive to say and quit talking shit for the benefit of those people who want to read this thread and try out disabling EAX on their soundcard.

Is there a setting to stop arrogant wankers to stop spamming useful threads? I wish there was.

Back on topic now.. When EAX is enabled on a card such as SB Live! 24-bit, it will process w/e goes thru the s/w mixer. My music app doesn't have a separate checkbox for EAX but en/disabling CMSS 3D upmixing makes a huge difference in the sound, in both the music app & LFS. Having disabled it, my FPS increased slightly and was more steady. There, now wasn't that useful.. o.O

[Shotglass]

is there a setting to turn off dx10 shaders? no.
is there a setting to turn off the guns included in the cars? no
is there a setting to turn off these stupid threads? no.
is there a setting to turn u off? no.
is there a setting to disable AA, AF ingame? no
is there a setting to turn p2p off? no
is there a setting to turn off eax, aureal3d, dolbysurround or fukin stupid prologic? no

BENFICA TURNED OFF MAN U THOUGH!

and you sexy germ, turn me on. raaaaaaaaaaaaaawwoorrrr

ok guys ... who did leave that cage open ?

[joshdifabio]

is there a setting to turn off dx10 shaders? no.
is there a setting to turn off the guns included in the cars? no
is there a setting to turn off these stupid threads? no.
is there a setting to turn u off? no.
is there a setting to disable AA, AF ingame? no
is there a setting to turn p2p off? no
is there a setting to turn off eax, aureal3d, dolbysurround or fukin stupid prologic? no

BENFICA TURNED OFF MAN U THOUGH!

and you sexy germ, turn me on. raaaaaaaaaaaaaawwoorrrr
How about you turn your computer off? I'm sure 95% of the members of this forum would be pretty happy.

[Stellios]

Stupid quote

AA/AF and other options are things that i personally would really like to see in the game options, but its easily done through the nvidia panel for me anyways. But how on earth do you turn the stuffing EAX off?

Calm down.

[NotAnIllusion]

Depends on the card really. On SB cards you can just deselect everything under the EAX Console tab, other cards.. I haven't the details but looking for anything EAX related about your card shoud give you a hint. Some driver tweak kit is probably needed for some of them like integrated AC '97 cards :(

[Mbrio]

A more topical thread title would have been advisable... Something along the lines of "Turning off EAX may improve performance."

"Found one performance leak" can imply there's something wrong with LFS in this regard, which if I'm not mistaken, isn't the case.

Just offering some words of reason :shrug:

[al heeley]

Yep, its been pretty well documented over the years that both SB cards in general and particularly EAX have an often significant drain on processor resources. It's not what I would call a performance leak or an issue relevant to the coding of LFS at all.

[sil3ntwar]

How about you turn your computer off? I'm sure 95% of the members of this forum would be pretty happy./signed

[TCStelten]

A more topical thread title would have been advisable... Something along the lines of "Turning off EAX may improve performance."

"Found one performance leak" can imply there's something wrong with LFS in this regard, which if I'm not mistaken, isn't the case.

Just offering some words of reason :shrug:

agreed :)

[farcar]

All this bickering, and only one remotely populated server running at the moment.

How about we go and race?

[KiDCoDEa]

How about you turn your computer off? I'm sure 95% of the members of this forum would be pretty happy.

/signed

oh that might be close to the truth and so would the inverse. La Palissse.
The other "5%" would also be very pleased if the other "95%" would turn off theirs. in fact that doesnt limitate to the lfs forum but whole internet.

Now please shut up

Is there a setting to stop arrogant wankers to stop spamming useful threads? I wish there was.


well since u get personal,
how about u ignorant-yet-non-arrogant people that buy $$$$ hardware and have no ****in idea about what it is doing, grab ya silly mediocre asses and spam the website of creative, aureal, turtlebeach or whatever magazines that rate hw, make u buy?
mediocrity shouldnt be encouraged here, much less AT THE WRONG SECTION.
Seems you couldnt understand the analogy in the posts but what it meant for you 95% people that think tristan posts is the best shit since sliced bread, is:
lfs , the stand alone app, wont fix or tweak your computer and OS in the first place, and also it doesnt support on/off switches for things it doesnt integrate.
how do u pinpoint the stupidity in such a thread without expressing that i, like many, are ****in tired of retarded threads here?
dats what i call spam. when content doesnt match the forum aim.

[xaotik]

I'm running the kxproject drivers on an sblive which do not support EAX yet I do get the reverberation effects when close to walls, etc Point being, I don't think LFS is using EAX for the reverb.

[wheeler]

kid: in real life you also get fast upset when someone says something to you? if so I think you can use some anger management... and for now: maybe just breath twice before making a post, it's really getting useles imho.

all userinput is appreciated, even if everyone knows there's no need to react like this.

[xaotik]

mediocrity shouldnt be encouraged here, much less AT THE WRONG SECTION.

While I agree that this is in the wrong subforum (General Discussion is totally unrelated to this system config "discovery"), I don't see any reason to get worked up over it - MadCat didn't say it was LFS's fault in his thread-starting post (unless I missed something), he just posted what he discovered about his setup; which in the long run just might help someone else who's got a similar "problem".

[nikimere]

oh god :pillepall

[AndroidXP]

Geeez, beware of the flamewars EAX will cause. :rolleyes:

I mean... if it was rFactor or any other ISI game, then I could "understand" it, but really, EAX ?! :slap:

[the_angry_angel]

-- Comments retracted.

[Goresh]

Why are certain individuals in this community so hell bent on chasing ppl away?? Here we have someone, who, wrong or not, has found something he thinks might help others. He posts here, in good intentions, only to find himself under the gun. God forbid some actually want to assist others in improving their LFS performance. It would seem if one disagrees with this find, a more constructive reply would benefit everyone.

[Ramses]

Why are certain individuals in this community so hell bent on chasing ppl away?? Here we have someone, who, wrong or not, has found something he thinks might help others. He posts here, in good intentions, only to find himself under the gun. God forbid some actually want to assist others in improving their LFS performance. It would seem if one disagrees with this find, a more constructive reply would benefit everyone.

Exactly.

I guess he himself is absolutely flawless, never makes any mistake.

To use 'wtf' in this context is absurd.

[nikimere]

Why are certain individuals in this community so hell bent on chasing ppl away??

Because some people think they're better or more intelligent than the rest of us.

[Barroso]

well i agree with kid, its nonsense that this kind of thing is posted, every time i look on these forums i see the most incredible posts (of course repeated a bazillion times either here or on rsc). seriously now if you turn off the sound in lfs doesnt it give you some more fps??? now if you turn off all the eye candy, aa, af and whatnot there is more fps??? i wonder if ther will be even more if i flip that button in my pc...

[KiDCoDEa]

I mean... if it was rFactor or any other ISI game, then I could "understand" it, but really, EAX ?! :slap:

hehe thats the beauty of it. i have 0 personal interest in this thread except in helping some people in thinking a bit more before posting. no beef here, deep down i love yall.
sorry everyone i go back to my german built ubber engineered cage, only to return when the subject is auread 3d.

[xaotik]

seriously now if you turn off the sound in lfs doesnt it give you some more fps??? now if you turn off all the eye candy, aa, af and whatnot there is more fps??? i wonder if ther will be even more if i flip that button in my pc...

Actually, what was initially posted was about disabling EAX, not turning off the sound completely. And disabling EAX as far as I remember in older liveware drivers isn't something straightforward as clicking on a checkbox or moving a slider (this might have changed with newer creative labs drivers). And that's why most games have an option to use the EAX API or not - however as I posted before, I don't think LFS uses it.

However, yes, avoiding inane posts would be nice - especially in the "General LFS Discussions" where we get so many other interesting spam threads about the dev's kitchens or their hair or whatever else and quite a lot stuff that should be in bug reports or improvement suggestions...

[KiDCoDEa]

However, yes, avoiding inane posts would be nice - especially in the "General LFS Discussions" where we get so many other interesting spam threads about the dev's kitchens or their hair or whatever else and quite a lot stuff that should be in bug reports or improvement suggestions...

hehe :) smart greek warning

[Barroso]

you saying i didnt read the thread?then actually you shouldnt try to correct other people when you dont understand what i stated.

[Shotglass]

however as I posted before, I don't think LFS uses it.

then why would he get some 80% more fps if he disables eax ?

[Scawen]

then why would he get some 80% more fps if he disables eax ?I don't even know what EAX is, so i guarantee LFS doesn't use it. But from what i've seen here, it sound like some kind of post-processing sound effect that uses up a lot of CPU cycles.

EDIT : whatever it is, LFS doesn't use it intentionally. But it doesn't switch it off either. I should have said "LFS is unaware of EAX". If it's a reverb / echo system, LFS doesn't really need it because it has its own echo system that depends on the track environment. But you may find that some external reverb effect improves the sound - and if that helps the sound then go ahead and use it, as long as it doesn't take up loads of CPU time!

[tristancliffe]

Seems you couldnt understand the analogy in the posts but what it meant for you 95% people that think tristan posts is the best shit since sliced bread, is:Dragging me into this!?!?! Thats not fair, no one has said (to me) they liked or disliked the one post in the thread from me. :x

[xaotik]

then why would he get some 80% more fps if he disables eax ?

Hmmm - actually, he didn't just disable EAX, he used an entirely different driver (from what he says atleast) - so this fps gain is probably not just EAX-related.

Thats not fair, no one has said (to me) they liked or disliked the one post in the thread from me.

Your post was terrible - but you probably had left your butler unattended so he improvised, quite understandable.

[jmkz]

I don't even know what EAX is,

The environmental audio extensions (or EAX) are a number of digital signal processing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signal_processing) presets for audio, present in Creative Labs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Labs) later Sound Blaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Blaster) sound cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_card) and the Creative Nomad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Nomad) product line. EAX displaced the alternative A3D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A3D) (Aureal 3-Dimensional) in 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_audio_extensions


it has to be included in the programmation for it to work, it does not work when the game has no code written for it.

[MadCatX]

Ufff, what a posts are now here....I will try to answer on anything that you have mentioned

1) OK, I might gave this thread more exact name
2) Perf. problem, is caused by EAX, it is not only and driver issue. I've tested three SND cards with EAX and always got the same(CMI9880, SB Live! and recenlty SBAudigy2)
3) Yup, I shloud place this to Tech. Assistane

Maybe there should be some routine that will ban EAX when LFSing. Swapping SNDcards and drivers is not very practical, is it? If anyone knows about utility that can do this, let us know. I think that doubling LFS sound system by EAX can slow down systems with certain HW/SW configuration. Dunno when exactly this problem occures, but there are lot of people saying "I have powerful PC and everything except LFS is running fine" I noticed that most of these sysems uses EAX capable sound.

EAX itself doesn't slow games too much, for ex. FarCry and Lock-On runs me at same speed no matter if EAX is on/off/not supported. (and Lock-On IS REEEAAALLLY CPU HUNGRY)

BTW: Can anyone change name of this thread to something more suitable? I must admit that "Found Perf. leak" is not too good.

@TristanCliffe: Yup, you're right. I'll throw away my P4 3.2 and get 2x Opteron 870....:tilt: Maybe it'll help.....:)

[xaotik]

If anyone knows about utility that can do this, let us know.

I seem to remember that, when running the stock creative labs drivers, if you run dxdiag and go to the sound tab of your EAX-enabled device and set the "hardware sound acceleration" slider under "directX features" to "standard" instead of "full" then EAX is disabled. Not sure what else is disabled in the process though.

[mrfell]

I seem to remember that, when running the stock creative labs drivers, if you run dxdiag and go to the sound tab of your EAX-enabled device and set the "hardware sound acceleration" slider under "directX features" to "standard" instead of "full" then EAX is disabled. Not sure what else is disabled in the process though.

Many thanks XAOTIK, I have the same problem so will try this later.:thumb:

[mrfell]

Your post was terrible - but you probably had left your butler unattended so he improvised, quite understandable.

rofl

[NotAnIllusion]

how about u ignorant-yet-non-arrogant people that buy $$$$ hardware and have no ****in idea about what it is doing, grab ya silly mediocre asses and spam the website of creative, aureal, turtlebeach or whatever magazines that rate hw, make u buy?mediocrity shouldnt be encouraged here, much less AT THE WRONG SECTION.

There is nothing wrong being mediocre, at all. Not everyone can be God. Why in all your wisdom could you not have notified a moderator to move this topic into the correct place?
My card's not expensive btw. It's the cheapest half-decent one I could find at the time.

lfs , the stand alone app, wont fix or tweak your computer and OS in the first place, and also it doesnt support on/off switches for things it doesnt integrate.
I can understand that, I see no EAX option. I don't see any separate AA / AF settings either. However, driver-level selection of these options do affect it anyway. Controlling AA & AF from the driver settings has a huge impact on FPS whether or not LFS has them selectable in the in-game settings. Also, like I said before, disabling the EAX feature from the soundcard drivers also made a significant difference in the in-game sounds, in LFS. The CMSS 3D option I referred to (I suspect) upmixes everything going thru the mixer, including sounds in games that do not support EAX natively.

how do u pinpoint the stupidity in such a thread without expressing that i, like many, are ****in tired of retarded threads here?
dats what i call spam. when content doesnt match the forum aim.
Again, if you were nice to begin with, explained nicely why this was in the incorrect section and henceforth notified a moderator about it, perhaps it would no longer be in the wrong place. :smileypul

What puzzles me is why waste any time on such a stupid thread, when you could save yourself from dealing with mediocre people, by simply ignoring the thread. :scratchch


Back on topic now:
I seem to remember that, when running the stock creative labs drivers, if you run dxdiag and go to the sound tab of your EAX-enabled device and set the "hardware sound acceleration" slider under "directX features" to "standard" instead of "full" then EAX is disabled. Not sure what else is disabled in the process though.
That sounds great, simple way of disabling it. Didn't know you could do that..

*edit whoops didn't read that correctly at first. The above should work on all EAX enabled devices if you have DX installed (you do ;))

Can't find any list that says exactly how changing the sound acceleration works, but.. since it's easy to try, go for it :D
Lowering the Hardware Sound Acceleration Level from the default setting of "full acceleration" may disable advanced audio processing techniques, such as 3D spatialization from functioning.

[the_angry_angel]

Scawen, this maybe of use: http://www.atc.creative.com/algorithms/eax20.pdf It has some useful snippets.

[PLAYLIFE]

is there a setting to turn off dx10 shaders? no.
is there a setting to turn off the guns included in the cars? no
is there a setting to turn off these stupid threads? no.
is there a setting to turn u off? no.
is there a setting to disable AA, AF ingame? no
is there a setting to turn p2p off? no
is there a setting to turn off eax, aureal3d, dolbysurround or fukin stupid prologic? no

BENFICA TURNED OFF MAN U THOUGH!

and you sexy germ, turn me on. raaaaaaaaaaaaaawwoorrrr

don't be posting drunken nonsense please...

[jtr99]

...raaaaaaaaaaaaaawwoorrrr

What's it like being you, Kid? A little bit hectic?

[KiDCoDEa]

don't be posting drunken nonsense please...

:banana_ra :bannana_p :guitarist :monkey: :drink: :elefant: :bananalla
:laola: :tempted:

[Shotglass]

Hmmm - actually, he didn't just disable EAX, he used an entirely different driver (from what he says atleast) - so this fps gain is probably not just EAX-related.

either way its very weird ... normaly disabling sound entirely in other games will yield a 5-10% performance increase at best

[Scawen]

either way its very weird ... normaly disabling sound entirely in other games will yield a 5-10% performance increase at bestTo test what FPS gain you get in LFS by disabling sound, just press SHIFT+N.

[NotAnIllusion]

Right-o I did some benchmarking and here we go..
I lost an average of 20 FPS when I had all EAX effects enabled, compared to the benchmark with EAX disabled. Quite a difference. :o

[Tweaker]

Who uses EAX anyways, for the most part it is just horrible sound effects that try and emulate a large room or that 'surround' feel :rolleyes:. Disable it, enable support for surround sound systems if you have a surround system, and there you have it, real stuff.

I've never liked what EAX creates and/or does while you play games or listen to music.

[askoff]

Well if you ask me, the EAX 5.0 looks very promising. Even in car games, you could use enviroinment effects (like echo), doppler effect, resampling and IIRC EQ. I think those effects could be used in LFS also because it's using those effects on software now. EAX 5.0 is supported only in (quite expensive) X-fi soundcards, so most of the players it won't make any difference. But at least in theory it could be useful to free some CPU time with Soundcards DSP. Now we are using displaycards DSP to process the grafics, so why not do the same thing with soundcard.

[Fonnybone]

Quick, someone give Kid a monkey picture or something !
I have this one to keep him busy in the meanwhile...:monkey:

[KiDCoDEa]

Quick, someone give Kid a monkey picture or something !
I have this one to keep him busy in the meanwhile...:monkey:

hehe are u sure u wanna be a moderator here? i dont blame you i blame whoever picked you.
was it a reward for producing those 2 powermod crap that completly ruined any chance of us all having online charts?
whatever it was, the more u post, offline, offkey , ressurrecting dead threads, it only screams one thing:

ERRONEOUS CASTING.


ps: i havent replied the first time, i havent replied the second time (your pm to me) and tbh, this 3rd time isnt really an answer. i would reply to you as a user though.

[tristancliffe]

Like this?

Edit: Eeeek, there appears to be a fight brewing. Considers either "calm down, break it up" or "run away, head for the hills. 'wait, their coming from the hills' Run away from the hills. If you see hills run the other way".

Edit2: Kid, does being a moderator automatically mean Fonny can't have a sense of humour? It's not illegal to have a laugh you know, although it appears it must be in 'ull.

[ORION]

This thread sucks...
Just use the setting you want - if you like EAX, use it - if not, don't use it.
It's your problem how much fps it costs :D

Now close this thing vic ;)

[L(Oo)ney]

Was it a reward for producing those 2 powermod crap that completly ruined any chance of us all having online charts?

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Fonny never ruined anything for anyone.

The people using his mod to cheat are the ones ruining it for those that give a shit about the online "my penis is bigger then your penis" chart.

IIRC, fonny has also delayed the next release of his program so he could fix this "bug".

[KiDCoDEa]

Fonny never ruined anything for anyone.

The people using his mod to cheat are the ones ruining it

oh ok. now it all makes sense. release a tool to ruin the game challenges provided, but the probs is the users and no responsability whatsoever on the tool maker?
and that was refering to all his mod programs not just this last.
ok i see your logic. you prolly pro nra also.
after all, its hull, i understand.
survive.

btw fell free to post a lfs keygen then. its not your fault angel hulligan, its the ones that run it.

[al heeley]

This thread seems to have wandered off into a different area, I think everything has now been said of relevance regarding EAX and LFS, so shall we move on? :thumb: