TEST Patch X30 (to X38)

[evilgeek]

regarding the clutch slipping when the tires suddenly find grip, i wonder if simulating a guibo would help? (the flexible rubber mount between the transmission and drive shaft) this would allow some drivetrain lash and absorb some of the forces before they reach the clutch.

[ghost racer]

I've been getting a weird texture glitch once and awhile from the X30 patch. See the attached

It could be because of the ATI, or driver conflicting who knows.. Just thought I would report it.

[JTbo]

I think the rallycross problem is almost exclusive to the XFG. I got 5 XRG AIs to finish a 15 lap race on the same lap as me in X33.

I agree, there is no real problem with XRG and no with RB4 either.

[Lautsprecher[NOR]]

"Tyres / clutch cool down even if the car is out of physics"
You mean you can run out? :P

[Krammeh]

If it keeps happening then maybe hosts will need to upgrade to X35. It's supposed to be compatible but I can't guarantee it as I am working at high speed.

I also had the same mass disconnect bug, im still running x30 server :)

[JTbo]

;635155']"Tyres / clutch cool down even if the car is out of physics"
You mean you can run out? :P

No, car is excluded from physics calculation when engine is turned off and there was bug that caused tires to remain same temp even car is 1 hour turned off, so that means just that tires cool now even engine is off really ;)

[kaynd]

Tested all road cars in rally X and I agree that only the XFG is problematic with it's clutch temperature.

[Scawen]

Thanks for the testing, everyone. I have had one idea, the clutch strength (combination of springs and friction material type / size) should not only be based on the engine's maximum torque, but also the rotational inertia of the engine. To say it another way, an engine with a bigger flywheel needs a bigger clutch.

So by using this method I could give the XF GTI a stronger clutch without affecting the racing cars (which although they have a lightened engine, already have a strong clutch to deal with their high output torque). And hopefully if the XF clutch is made strong enough by this method, I can return heating to X33 levels.

regarding the clutch slipping when the tires suddenly find grip, i wonder if simulating a guibo would help? (the flexible rubber mount between the transmission and drive shaft) this would allow some drivetrain lash and absorb some of the forces before they reach the clutch.That's interesting. Do you know how resistant to rotation they are? E.g. how many degrees they can "give" when transmitting the engine's maximum torque. LFS does have something like this but if I had some real life figures I could compare them with the LFS version of it.

[BIzO]

I can't download this test patch in lfs :/

look this image
http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44714&d=1198005724
http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44715&d=1198005724

Help please :(

[Hyperactive]

I just did few laps in the latest (X35 I presume) and it was really hard to burn the clutch without really trying. With XFG I was going pretty much ad infinitum with all intentions to burn the clutch. I tried several cars with both long and short gear ratios and the only car was the XRG where I was able to burn the clutch eventually. But I didn't test pre-X35 on rallycross...

Here's the link for the clutch post I made: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=630185#post630185

The clutch heat modelling (heat vs. slip essentially) is a tough one, graphs can be hard to find but the clutch friction, or "torque capacity" is an easy one. There are lots of basic engineering books to be found in libraries about it so it is easy to check. Especially if a rough estimation is enough.

That being said, how do you guys drive rallycross? You know that if you land the car (after a jump) at full throttle the clutch has to absorb all the torque the tires and engine braking cause? You know that rallydrivers, even in wrc, lift as they land after a jump? Even RC car drivers lift as they jump because the cars can't take it. Just to be sure :). But as I said, I didn't test pre-X35 versions on rallycross so I have no idea.

[JTbo]

Just to note that not all cars have guibo.

Don't know if these help, but here is pic and it came from this page (http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/E36-Guibo/E36-Guibo.htm)
http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/E36-Guibo/pic2.jpg

Material is bit similar to some engine mounts, it can flex, but it is used mainly to remove small vibrations, it is not flexing anything significant amount as you can see by looking photo.

[Cue-Ball]

That being said, how do you guys drive rallycross? You know that if you land the car (after a jump) at full throttle the clutch has to absorb all the torque the tires and engine braking cause? How much torque can tires and engine braking possibly cause when driving on dirt and gravel? Letting off the gas while driving over bumpy pavement, or being on the gas after going over a speedbump a bit too fast would be more likely to generate a lot of stress on the drivetrain, and I've never had a clutch slip as a result of those types of actions. Not even in 15 year old beaters.

[SamH]

That's interesting. Do you know how resistant to rotation they are? E.g. how many degrees they can "give" when transmitting the engine's maximum torque. LFS does have something like this but if I had some real life figures I could compare them with the LFS version of it.
This is exciting to read. I don't have any figures, but I can imagine that introducing an accurate drive-train flex will add hugely to the sim. Tyre physics would also be affected, though, if introducing driveshaft flex. I've broken a driveshaft or two myself by accelerating uphill over a bumpy surface.. the driveshaft twisted a good many degrees, wheels bounced, caught again.. driveshafts snapped as the tyres caught and the engine torque went straight into twisting the shafts.

[henrico-20-]

Here are some probs that i have noticed in X33. i don't know if it is posted before.

AI:

AI doesent overtake. did an 16hour test race wit UFR 30%restriction XFR 25%restriction and LX4 0% restriction. but they just don't overtake. they step all the time on the brake when they make a move to pass. also Did GTR test on KY Oval, when AI is faster they just don't pass even on straights. they jump on the brakes and make abrubt steering moves. also they enter the pitlane to fast at KY oval so they get a drivetrough all the time. but i see that its fixed in X35?

Car handling:

i've noticed that the cars are verry bumpy now. specially on cerbs. almost out of controll.

Setups:

All the car setups are gone. but the files are still in the map settings and i put them in map Setups. Only the lx4 still has all the setups.

i hope you can use the information.

gtrz
henrico-20-

p.s. the FBM drives great :)

[AndroidXP]

Setups:

All the car setups are gone. but the files are still in the map settings and i put them in map Setups. Only the lx4 still has all the setups.
That's because the setups follow a different naming scheme now. You can get a batch-renaming tool here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=34784). :)

[SamH]

Just wanting to pursue this drivetrain thing for a moment.. (we need Bob or Tod Wasson or someone).. in my old Audi 90 (1.9L 5cyl), I could let the clutch off sharply, the clutch would bite fully, the car would lunge forward, the engine would *not* stall, the tyres would *not* skid, and the flex in the drivetrain (and suspension) would get the car moving. So, I'm guessing there's potentially a LOT of flex in there.

[edit] I'm such an amateur bar-stool engineer :(... points of flex would also include engine mountings (rubber blocks.. broken them before, too), driveshaft, chassis flex, longtitudinal tyre rubber flex.. prolly a number of other points too.

[MarioX]

You have to change setup filenames: for example Formula XR -> FOX and so on... Very useful programs, meant to do exactly that, were posted in unofficial addons section ;)

Edit: beaten by Android :D

[Californian]

Don't know about XF GTI and RC but all cars have much better clutch heating simulation in X35 than in X33 when going on tarmac.

Hope clutch heating won't be increased to X33 levels ever again because it's horrible and X35's clutch acts more like the real in terms of heating and you can heat it when you're really trying (when going on tarmac that is).

[Warper]

Ok this post won't be easy for me. I should have taken the technical english course at the uni. In one of my current lectures (car construction I) we talked about clutches. When you talked about the stiffness of the drivetrain another point came to my mind.

Do you simulate torsional springs in a clutch at the moment scawen? Watch my attached pic, i marked it with a orange square. In roadcars clutches do not have a 100% stiff connection between drive side and the other (dont know the right english name). Even if they are fully engaged, all the tourque goes through these torsional springs. They are mainly one of the dozen methods to reduce engine vibrations in the drive shaft and to get rid off high tourque peaks.

Did you get what i tried to say/ask? :)

Greetings

[JTbo]

Just wanting to pursue this drivetrain thing for a moment.. (we need Bob or Tod Wasson or someone).. in my old Audi 90 (1.9L 5cyl), I could let the clutch off sharply, the clutch would bite fully, the car would lunge forward, the engine would *not* stall, the tyres would *not* skid, and the flex in the drivetrain (and suspension) would get the car moving. So, I'm guessing there's potentially a LOT of flex in there.

Engine mounts do flex quite a bit, also suspension movement helps a bit, don't know if either one of these is in LFS yet.

Engine mounts can be biggest reason as in Audi 90 there is not much to flex in drivetrain, imo.

[Lotesdelere]

I need to know which cars (if any) suffer more clutch overheating than others, on road or rallycross tracks, so I can hopefully start to see a pattern.
I've just done some races and free practice with the FZR, which is quite hard on the clutch, and I got the feeling that 25% might be a bit too much, I think something like 15-20% would be better.

I did the tests with FZR @ AS3 (the combo I've driven the most) with a DFP and using auto clutch.
Patch X35 on my side and patch X30 on the server.

[wien]

How much torque can tires and engine braking possibly cause when driving on dirt and gravel? Letting off the gas while driving over bumpy pavement, or being on the gas after going over a speedbump a bit too fast would be more likely to generate a lot of stress on the drivetrain, and I've never had a clutch slip as a result of those types of actions. Not even in 15 year old beaters.I think you need to stop and think about how hard we actually drive these things in LFS. (See attachment) When all that mass comes crashing down to earth you can be quite sure there'll be some clutch stress. With all that weight the tires will spin up almost immediately, even on gravel, and a clutch designed for normal road use can't keep up with those kinds of forces.

Of course, your suspension would probably collapse after your first lap IRL, so the clutch heating up would be the least of your worries. :)

[Bob Smith]

I'm sure Dennis mentioned somethime about axle twist due to inboard brakes on the dp1. Sadly I cannot find in emails/his site where this was mentioned, and I remember the exact figure. I remember it being higher than I thought, over 20 degrees I think (under full braking, that's 1.6gs or so).

[Cue-Ball]

I think you need to stop and think about how hard we actually drive these things in LFS. (See attachment) When all that mass comes crashing down to earth you can be quite sure there'll be some clutch stress. With all that weight the tires will spin up almost immediately, even on gravel, and a clutch designed for normal road use can't keep up with those kinds of forces.I think you are seriously underestimating the durability of the average car. I've jumped WAY higher and WAY farther than that in POS beater cars loads of times, on both pavement and dirt (I grew up in Wyoming. There was nothing better to do :) ). Never broken or burnt out a clutch. Hell, we jumped my friend Dave's Datsun so high that the seats hit the ground when we landed. The windows broke out of the car, but the clutch worked just fine. :) I've launched my Mustang quite hard on very wide tires without frying my stock clutch. I've had friends launch their cars many times using sticky drag radials, and never broken a clutch (I've seen them slip, but only after repeated abuse like this). Hell, my friend's GTO twisted off THREE driveshafts and broke multiple U-joints, but never had the clutch overheat or massively slip. And that was just a Centerforce "street/strip" clutch, not a racing clutch.

Of course, your suspension would probably collapse after your first lap IRL, so the clutch heating up would be the least of your worries. :)Nah. Cars are pretty damn tough. Except Hummer H2s. ;)

In order for the clutch to slip, you would have to have enough torque between the tires and the engine that it overpowered the clutch. In general, either the tires don't have enough grip (in the dirt they certainly wouldn't) or the engine doesn't have enough power/engine braking (depending on if you're on the gas or off). The only time I've ever seen a clutch slip and burn up is if it was old, if it had been massively abused (lots of riding/slipping the clutch or hard launches), or if the car had been highly modified but was using a stock clutch. Simply powershifting from first to second should not be enough to slip the clutch.

[kaynd]

For the engine mount flex. I haven’t any arithmetic values but I have seen some engines move a lot even with just hard revups in netural. On some dyno runs, I couldn’t believe how much the engine mounts where flexing.

I tried to find some decent videos on youtube about that.
This is a good example of stock engine mounts
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=FrK8-fd9cN8
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vRSkvmAT8



Sometimes this is a problem because the engine moves so much the gearbox, that you can’t shift a gear fast enough so there comes the need for an engine dumper especially if you have increased its power.
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxa8o0Kq83c
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=lC4Dr_Mr2gY



And all this flex distortion is way less than axle twist that mentioned above.

[wien]

Heh, fair enough. I didn't realise you were speaking from (rather impressive) personal experience. :D I still think a majority of the complaints people are having are because they don't quite realise how violent they are to the cars though. If you drove real life rallycross with a road car like you do in LFS I don't think a few broken and/or overheated pieces would surprise anyone. :)

[trackah123]

Good job. Tested the clutch again on X35 with FBM, had the same time again.

Im not a car expert at all i tried to read all these posts but it sounds to technical for me. Almost look like 80% here are car-engineers :)

Anyway Scawen if you need some flat-clutch testing again let me know since my logitech g15 macro is very accurate (on the millisecond).

Don't push yourself to hard Scawen :) you doing a great job, forget the deadline think about the quality of the game. Think about X-mas etc :) btw merry xmas to everyone already.

[Cue-Ball]

If you drove real life rallycross with a road car like you do in LFS I don't think a few broken and/or overheated pieces would surprise anyone. :)Oh, I definitely agree that the way people drive in this game would break parts. I just don't think the clutch is likely to be one of them. I've found clutches, even crappy stock ones, to be extremely strong. You usually will blow up the engine, snap a u-joint, or break an axle before you toast the clutch.

The way that people downshift in <=X10 is my biggest gripe. They tend to over-rely on engine braking and the artificially fast speed that LFS downshifts. I think a lot of that will go away now that auto-blip and auto-cut are gone, but the cars are still going to be subject to a lot more [virtual] abuse than they could reasonably withstand.

I'm anxiously awaiting further clutch model improvements and hoping for much improved damage modeling. In due time, I'm sure.

[SamH]

I'm sure Dennis mentioned somethime about axle twist due to inboard brakes on the dp1. Sadly I cannot find in emails/his site where this was mentioned, and I remember the exact figure. I remember it being higher than I thought, over 20 degrees I think (under full braking, that's 1.6gs or so).
Yowzer.. 20 degrees is a huge twist. That's a lot of sim!

[Scawen]

Don't push yourself to hard Scawen :) you doing a great job, forget the deadline think about the quality of the game. Think about X-mas etc :) btw merry xmas to everyone already.Thanks but I'm thinking about my month after Christmas, Patch Y will be out this week! :)

[mclarenmatt]

Thanks but I'm thinking about my month after Christmas, Patch Y will be out this week! :)

Yay! Good news :) Looking forward to Patch Y!

[AndroidXP]

Just plug out the internet after patch Y release and instruct your slav... *ehm* Victor to handle the remaining unlock requests :D

[Vain]

That's interesting. Do you know how resistant to rotation they are? E.g. how many degrees they can "give" when transmitting the engine's maximum torque. LFS does have something like this but if I had some real life figures I could compare them with the LFS version of it.Just a comment:
The german company SGF produces such couplings and I'm pretty sure they deliver parts to several main south-german automobile companies. They'd propably share information on the torsional rigidity of the coupling and the dampening-coefficient of the used material if you'd ask them nicely.

Speak up if you want someone german-speaking to ask them. I'm sure there are many people around here who'd love to support LFS.

Also, I just looked up something from a lecture at university about vibration-simulation of drive-trains. In the presented model with guideline-values they have a torsional spring with a stiffness of 1*10^3 Nm/rad between engine and clutch (clutch included).

Vain

[Niels Heusinkveld]

:tilt:Scawen will have a happy X-mass, we will have a happy Y-mass :tilt:

[trackah123]

Yes i would love to see engine-damage in a way that somebody could break his gearbox or the engine catches black smoke or a fire :) Maybe thats something for a LFS S3 version or something. Something that could be developed in the very future when the race-physics has been pretty much finished at that time.

Same goes for the exterior of the car (flying parts, breaking glass, losing a tyre when it breaks off the suspension of the car etc.)

[dougie-lampkin]

That's interesting. Do you know how resistant to rotation they are? E.g. how many degrees they can "give" when transmitting the engine's maximum torque. LFS does have something like this but if I had some real life figures I could compare them with the LFS version of it.

wow, I think it's cool to see that LFS is modelled on actual real-life figures...

[magorik]

i see that stronger clutch dont slips that much and imho in real life :-) in my skoda felicia :-) 50kW at 5000 rpm if about 106 Nm at 2300 rpm 4 cylinder 8 valve

i have 10 years old clutch and if i go in fifth gear about 120 110 kmh uphill i have about 3500 rpm at 120 km h , very long uphill only i 65kg and felicica 950 kg, over this 1,5 km long hill i must floor it because on top i dont have 120 km/h but only 100 km/h :-)))

on top of the hill aj can smell clutch :-) its very different to smell of engine or brakes :-) (brakes uphill dont smell :-) ) i realy love rev up 6000 rpm and never smell that , i can go 110kmh in third gear to 6000 rpm, and no smell of clutch

sometimes if i have passengers family about 200 kg and me i can sense clutch slips if i go uphil in fifth gear i have about 80 kmh 2800 rpm and if road is bumpy and one bridge uphill is bumpy aj can sense clutch sometimes slip, engine rev s up about 100 rpm and after while it gets down, its just not from disapearing load from front wheels because car jumps over bumpy road, it happens if i go uphill with full load and hill is very steep 12 % , thinking of it because i have high gear low rpm , floored pedal , engine have bigger torque in low rpm , maybe if iam pushing that longer i can get engine stall, but i am not heartless i just downshift, but theoreticaly thinking about it :-))

it maybe happen because clutch is old and worn , today i feel that i can't get car moving just with clutch and no gas, i sense that clutch bites, 3 years ago that clutch was fluid i was standing on cluth on hill and if i gets green i just slowly release clutch and car gets moving uphill (little uphill moving :-) ) , today worn clutch it just bite and engine stop without warning , slowly release pedal and bog stalled engine, today i must get little gas if i want stand on clutch uphill

but you know most time i drive alone, i have som bad habits :-) and dont realize that add 200 kg to 50 kw and its lazy dont help reving :-) it just dont have enought power 1.3

i just want describe that if only one hill can heat clut that i can smell it,than in race with bad shifts flat shifts clutch must heat even more

sometimes i do flat shift (not totaly flat :-) like in lfs, i just hold little gass and if i miss the revs) i get fantastic slip :-)

typicaly on second gear do 5800 6000 rpm about 80 kmh and fast shift to third gear, car literaly skips front for a split second i can feel it in back :-) but in later 2 seconds i can see revs dramaticaly drops 500 rpm ,to 3000rpm because engine dont have enought power and drops to rev where he has enough torque, or something like that :-))

now if i think about that i am confused ever more, because i realize that clutch slips only if its not full released and i do flat shift and have gas pedal under load , and second if i have 5 gear and low rpm about 3000 uphill (engine have max torque 106nm in 2300 rpm ) and uphill car with passengers sometimes clutch slips

but if it slip and clutch pedal is full released clutch slip only tothe point where torqe and rev are matching and gets transfered to the wheels at that point clutch bite and hold

if i recall clutch in race car is hard because it cant slip , you can burn pneu if you floor it, but clutch cant slip its last thing you can get if you want from engine max

i just thinking i have g25 , if i can race like before with auto clutch, auto clutch its just very big advantage over manual, in formula seqentional gearbox you don have to heel toe, but in H pattern i think i just must race with autoclutch i cant think where i can get advantage something good with manual clutch

guys with autoclutch just change gears always same in every type of gearbox like it is sequentional gearbox, they just change gears and break with engine

sorry for bad english its real fight for me:-)) describe, what i feel, just correct me, i understand english way better than i write and speak :-),i want read more about clutch, maybe i am in big mistake with some detail maybe i'm totaly off :-)) and in bad topic

[evilgeek]

from what i understand any movement of a guibo (flex disc) is usually a result of the bolts twisting in their holes.

here is a picture of a worn flex disc. you can see the cracks around the bolt holes.

http://www.alfagtv6.com/bb/files/1_237.jpg

i haven't found any hard figures on just how far the driveshaft can rotate indepdent of the transmission output flange, but as an estimate, if the guibo had a diameter of 10cm at the bolt centers, and the bolt heads could flex by 5mm side to side, the driveshaft would have about 5.7 degrees of freedom.

i think it can be assumed that when the bolts are twisted they compress the rubber, and it's like a spring being compressed. the energy will be released eventually (less any converted to heat in the process), either through the tranny (if the wheels retain traction) or back to the wheels if they lose traction. this might contribute to wheel hop under certain conditions?

[z3r0c00l]

Just to note that not all cars have guibo.

Don't know if these help, but here is pic and it came from this page (http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/E36-Guibo/E36-Guibo.htm)


Material is bit similar to some engine mounts, it can flex, but it is used mainly to remove small vibrations, it is not flexing anything significant amount as you can see by looking photo.

I have a LOT of flex in my bmw drivetrain, I'm in the process of replacing all the bushings with polymer ones instead of this crappy, over-flexible rubber. It's a giant arse ache.

The flex matters a lot - the reason I'm swapping them out is because I raced someone elses with this already done and it was brilliant, really responsive dynamics.

You can even buy aluminium ones for racing, things like diff mounts especially.

My differential rocks enough just flicking it into first gear to make a clunk from it rocking in its carrier and the bushings, if you dump the gass and take it off again you can really feel the whole lot elasticate the application of torque to the wheels.

[Glenn67]

I'm sure Dennis mentioned somethime about axle twist due to inboard brakes on the dp1. Sadly I cannot find in emails/his site where this was mentioned, and I remember the exact figure. I remember it being higher than I thought, over 20 degrees I think (under full braking, that's 1.6gs or so).


They way I understand a flex disk is constructed I'd expect it to be able to flex upto about 30 degrees mechanicaly given enough forces at play. In reality there is probably a large safty margine before the metal components clash so a resonable guess would be what Bob said :) Also engine mounts can allow several degrees of movement, so it all adds upto quite abit.

from what i understand any movement of a guibo (flex disc) is usually a result of the bolts twisting in their holes.

If that's how they work they wouldn't last 5 minutes :p

I'm pretty sure you will find that they all have six bolts, three attatch to a plate connected to the driveshaft, the other alternating three attatch to another plate that connects to the diff in most cases, this is all encased in rubber. The bolts are spaced 60 degrees apart. Looking at the pic JTBO post above you can see this fairly clearly. You can see by the shape of the connecting plate it would give 10 to 20 degrees of rotation easily.

So the effective (simulated sping) would need to take into account the mass of rubber acting between the two surfaces. (i.e. mass of rubber between two bolts times six) I guess just like tyres there would be varying characteristics between manufacturers etc and would assume road cars would have softer ones compared to race preped cars? So that might help the situation with the XFG.

[Starblue]

Please try to answer the question I've asked. [...] I need to know which cars (if any) suffer more clutch overheating than others, on road or rallycross tracks, so I can hopefully start to see a pattern.
I've tried a "burn clutch" test on different cars, I hope it can help you in seeing a pattern.

The tests were done on Kyoto Oval with these steps
1) Wait for the green lights to start the race
2) Shift-up to the highest gear without touching throttle (using autoclutch)
3) Floor down the throttle
4) Drive around the oval keeping max throttle until the clutch burns out or until it becomes stable orange
5) Watch the replays and note down how many seconds it takes to make the clutch red / how many seconds it takes to completely burn the clutch.

It is obviously an "unrealistic" test since no-one would start the car in highest gear but I hope it helps in showing the differences between the cars.
Results: http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/115/clutchtest01mt6.gif
Note 1: all cars were using their "default/hard track" setup
Note 2: some cars reached "red" temperature and then cooled down
Note 3: I did 2 tests on XFR, one with 5th gear, one with 6th

Cars which fully burnt the clutch: XFG, UFR, XFR, XRG, FBM
Cars where clutch became red but didn't burn out: FXO, LX4, LX6, FZR
Cars which run fine: UF1, RB4, XRT, XRR
Untested cars: RAC, FZ5, FXR, MRT, FOX, FO8, BF1

[dougie-lampkin]

But wouldn't the gear ratios be different? Surely that would affect the auto-clutch?

[JTbo]

Engine does rotate easily that 10 degrees, so there can be as much as 60 degrees of flex (street cars) when we put these together, it is of course different effect which side of gearbox flex resides, but it is quite surprisingly lot and that of course has lot of effect to driving feel and behaviour.

If you have leaf springs, rear axle also tends to rotate quite a lot at acceleration, also depending how axle is supported it tends to pull to side too so tail kind of steps out even it does not slide.

[Scawen]

Thank you very much for your stories, comments and test results! :)

I think you will find the new X36 an improved version. Clutch heating is back to X33 levels but six of the cars have a stronger clutch. The stronger clutch was worked out purely by engine inertia. So clutch strength is now the larger value of that required for engine torque, and that required to deal with the engine rotational inertia.

I loaded all the cars and found that these ones were changed : UF1 / XFG / XRG / LX4 / LX6 / FZ5

[unseen]

You planning on getting any sleep tonight? ;)

[Scawen]

Yes, very soon, after you've tested my patch :D

[Michael Denham]

Great stuff :D This sounds like a good way of going about clutch simulation for the while, letting you get on with finishing touches for Y.

[FlintFredstone]

I posted about the clutch earlier saying that my car had slip when virtually flat shifting right in my peak torque area, well i found out that subaru do it delibaratly with a clutch engaugement damper. Guys who drag race them dont have the damper and just sidestep the clutch and let the transmission flex and tyre slip do all the work, they dont get clutch wear or overheating. (busted gearboxes mainly)

Hope this helps

Simon

[Cue-Ball]

I haven't been able to test it myself since I'm at work, but the AI on Blackwood RallyX are faring okay using the XRG in patch X36 now. I ran 8 cars for 8 laps and they all finished with barely any heat in the clutch.

Huge improvement.

They certainly like to put on a show entering the pits though, sliding sideways and plowing into each other. :)

[evilgeek]

from what i understand any movement of a guibo (flex disc) is usually a result of the bolts twisting in their holes.

here is a picture of a worn flex disc. you can see the cracks around the bolt holes.

http://www.alfagtv6.com/bb/files/1_237.jpg

i haven't found any hard figures on just how far the driveshaft can rotate indepdent of the transmission output flange, but as an estimate, if the guibo had a diameter of 10cm at the bolt centers, and the bolt heads could flex by 5mm side to side, the driveshaft would have about 5.7 degrees of freedom.

i think it can be assumed that when the bolts are twisted they compress the rubber, and it's like a spring being compressed. the energy will be released eventually (less any converted to heat in the process), either through the tranny (if the wheels retain traction) or back to the wheels if they lose traction. this might contribute to wheel hop under certain conditions?

thinking about this a little more, my estimate should have been double what it was, as there are two sets of bolts, one attached to the driveshaft, and one to the tranny, and each will twist in the flex disc.

so roughly 10* for motor mounts, 10-15* for flex disc, 10* for diff mounts, plus some flex in the chassis and other metal bits, and it starts to add up to quite a lot.

however the engine inertia vs clutch size change sounds like it will do the trick for now. :)

[shiny_red_cobra]

They certainly like to put on a show entering the pits though, sliding sideways and plowing into each other. :)

I've noticed that too, the AI don't enter the pits on BL2 smoothly, instead they kinda spin around then go in. Maybe the racing line is undefined at some point...

[evilgeek]

If that's how they work they wouldn't last 5 minutes :p



got to disagree mate.

when at rest, the bolts will be parrallel to the driveshaft, but since they are a "single shear" connection (force is only applied to one end of the bolt), they will definitely twist from side to side within the rubber disc, and doing so will require a lot less deformation of the rubber (mostly concentrated near the edges) than moving in any other direction. the first few degrees of bolt twisting will hardly compress any of the rubber at all, but the further they twist, the more rubber becomes involved, with the load spread over a larger area. and if you think about it, this is actually needed to relieve stress on the bolts, and makes the connection more rubust, not less. if the bolts were not able to twist within the disc, they would be subject to much higher point loads, and more likely to fail.

and if you are thinking, "if that's true then why don't the wheel lugs fail?", the answer is that they have less inertia to cope with.

wheel: 4-5 lugs for 1 wheel + 1 tire

guibo: 3 bolts for 2 wheels + 2 tires + 2 axles + diff internals + driveshaft

[Eldanor]

Any chance of someone posting the patch zip? I don't have connection at home right now and I can't make LFS download the patch from here (work).

[gremwood]

x36 is a good patch, but visually, the analog speed gauges are a little funny looking. For the TBO class, LX6, FZ5, the gauges just dont have enough numbers. Compared to the cars with much less power, the displays just don't look right.

[Glenn67]

got to disagree mate.

The flex disk has metal sleves which the blots pass through they are done up tight (to a torque setting) metal to metal no flex involved there :shrug: yes there would be load on the bolt near the plates but bolts of that size can take many tonnes of force. If there was any movement between the bolt and metal end plate they would certainly fail very quickly.

[JTbo]

I did test now x36, report follows.

XFG in BL2 defineatly works now well, if I flatshift it is not likely to make 5 laps, If I shift properly and lift a bit at jumps it can last forever.

XRG I can flatshift to unknown future now and keep throttle floored on jumps, barely clutch temp.

Situation is better now I think, but original intention to reduce amount of flat shifting is not gained with XRG.

With LX6 flatshifting is not possible and if not flatshifted clutch seem to be cool and nice.

Other cars I did not test, also not much testing with XFG and XRG on tarmac me very tired, 4 am was long time ago :schwitz:

Edit:
I think that current situation is pretty qood as it is possible to race and learners car has clutch that will teach proper shifting, but that is of course your choice what level you are satisfied. My thoughts are that XFG from x36 and other cars from x30 might be pretty good, but that is just my thoughts :P

[Lodib]

Just a little question... Don´t know if it´s the right place.
Can you change "Window while connecting" to save to NO, it´s just a little thing, but every time a person update the version of Live for Speed the "Window while connecting" come back to YES... :thumb:
Thanks! As I said before, it´s just a little thing...
:) And sorry about my poor english.

[SamH]

Just a little question... Don´t know if it´s the right place.
Can you change "Window while connecting" to save to NO, it´s just a little thing, but every time a person update the version of Live for Speed the "Window while connecting" come back to YES... :thumb:
Thanks! As I said before, it´s just a little thing...
:) And sorry about my poor english.
I admit that I find this annoying too. However there is a very good reason to have it this way. With new patches sometimes come new connection issues (new application needs permission to connect through a firewall etc). So, the program automatically defaults to Windowed mode, so you will see if your firewall has an issue :)

It's a minor annoyance, but for a very good reason :)

[TheBandit_92]

Absolutely Exellent
:thumb:

[scoobyrbac]

Just a little question... Don´t know if it´s the right place.
Can you change "Window while connecting" to save to NO, it´s just a little thing, but every time a person update the version of Live for Speed the "Window while connecting" come back to YES... :thumb:
Thanks! As I said before, it´s just a little thing...
:) And sorry about my poor english.


YES!!!! I hate it when I forget that its in wondowed it also disconnets me from servers sometimes when its windowed because it has to go back to full screen..

[Glenn67]

I think you will find the new X36 an improved version. Clutch heating is back to X33 levels but six of the cars have a stronger clutch. The stronger clutch was worked out purely by engine inertia. So clutch strength is now the larger value of that required for engine torque, and that required to deal with the engine rotational inertia.

That sounds like a good solution to me also, as on thinking some more about the issue, FWD cars which were the most problematic have naturally alot less flex in the drive train than there RWD cousins so introducing more flex wouldn't have been realistic for that particular problem :)

Irl a car like the gti would most likely have had a heavy duty clutch installed if it was used in rallycross or serious racing. Trackday cars would probably have a clutch somewhere inbetween. The difference in leg strain would have been noticable between them too :D can't simulate that in LFS yet :razz: From what I've read from performance engineering sites about FWD cars standard to medium clutches dont take alot of abuse irl, so I think it would be pretty realistic now.

[Kancel]

I have a problem with X36, after I installed the patch, LFS returns from S2 back to DEMO, but I cant find any button to unlock it again?

[Barn]

ok after a quick test with XFG @ BL2, clutch is a lot better, i only had time to do ten laps as i had to go out

with lifting on gearchange, (not for the jumps) the clutch was a little hot, but not to bad.

i need to mess with setup, as my gears ratio's will have to be reworked for new physics!

any way, a big thank you scawen for sorting that out for us, and enjoy your xmas break :)

i'll report back on my enduro testing after i've had time to sort out my setup :thumb:

[Boris Lozac]

Clutch is great now with X36 (hadn't tested all the previous versions), in XFG it "grabs" a lot quicker now.. :nod:
Discussing with my teammates i gotta say that they are right with one thing, and it's that XFR and UFR should really have that Ignition cut :shrug: it's quite an cheap modification to the car and i think all the cars that resemble a "race" car should have that, it's 2008 and all, although i hate this new technology gimmiks bullshit, i gotta say that they are right that newer race cars almost all have an ignition cut, so if we strive for realism we should (unfortunately) have that driver assist in cars that have it in real life.. :shrug:

[herki]

x36 is a good patch, but visually, the analog speed gauges are a little funny looking. For the TBO class, LX6, FZ5, the gauges just dont have enough numbers. Compared to the cars with much less power, the displays just don't look right.

Probably it could work like that:
20 - 40 - 60 - 80 - 100 -120 ...?
Would look a lot better to me at least, plus I liked the old, unreadable speedos :shy:

[dpcars]

I'm sure Dennis mentioned somethime about axle twist due to inboard brakes on the dp1. Sadly I cannot find in emails/his site where this was mentioned, and I remember the exact figure. I remember it being higher than I thought, over 20 degrees I think (under full braking, that's 1.6gs or so).

the dp1 has unusually long halfshafts due to wide track and long suspension arms, so they tend to act a little like torsion bars :)

at 1.5g braking the fronts are indeed twisted 20 deg but it's only 54% yield strength. each shaft is seeing 440 lb-ft of torque at that point. like everything in engineering it's a tradeoff - the shafts are loaded but the suspension arms are not so lots of things can be lighter. and since the shafts see the same load under acceleration they already have to be this strong anyway :) and yes that means they twist under acceleration too, though it's the rears that do most (72%) of the work in that case.

as long as the tyres stay in contact with the pavement it's actually a bit of an anti-lock feature and works quite well in real life. simulating this accurately can be quite a trick of course.

[SamH]

simulating this accurately can be quite a trick of course.
Yup! But we have a secret weapon (http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=43) ;)

[Mille Sabords]

Hi!
I'm at work at the moment so I have spare (CPU:)) time for some AI testing.
Unfortunately I can not go through the firewall and use the auto updater, and have X35 installed.
Could someone post a link to X36 please? Thank you

[avih]

Scawen, are you trying as much as possible to make the clutch heating/slipping/force a function, even if descrete, of other parameters of the car? If you do, I can understand the beauty of the generality of it but I bet on real cars this value acts just as a starting point. The real parameters of the cluch are, surely, decided after test drives. If the clutch is inappropriate to the designated usage of the car, the paramaters change to make it appropriate.

On LFS' case the designated usage is racing, therefore, the clutch should be appropriate for that and not overheat under normal "trashing" of a car.

Other than that, looking forward for patch Y :)

[SpikeyMarcoD]

YES!!!! I hate it when I forget that its in wondowed it also disconnets me from servers sometimes when its windowed because it has to go back to full screen..

No there is a reason for it as it allows you to see the firewall windows better. Otherwise we get all those whines about not seeing any servers.

[trackah123]

Hi. i just noticed something not sure if this is supposed to be this way but i was trying to make a burnout with the FBM car just pressing the throttle key and brake key at the same time in 1st gear and it worn my clutch out in like a few seconds completely :shrug: also with handbrake same effect. i used the default raceset.

It only helps a bit if you set the brake balance all the way to the front then you can make one small burnout.

Try to hold clutch + arrow up + arrow down.. and release clutch :x

[AndreABG]

I assume u use keyboard, so you apply full braking power and then u wonder that u cant spinn the wheels?

[trackah123]

yes keyboard, i havent tested the other cars yet. but in LFS X10 it was no problem to do a good burnout with keyboard.

[birder]

Not sure where to put this but x35 the new Digital speedo numbers and the kph/mph are fuzzy as if out of focus yet the gear indicator is perfect.

FZR/AS3 on Conedodgers 5 incar view

[BIzO]

Wtf, i can't download...
I'm only in X32 :really:

[BCNR33]

Wtf, i can't download...
I'm only in X32 :really:
The patch can only be downloaded when u are in multiplayer mode.
Just simply hit "multiplayer", and search for gamerooms. Then the game will ask u to install X35/6.

[BIzO]

http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.p...4&d=1198005724 (http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44714&d=1198005724)
http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.p...5&d=1198005724
:really:

[tristancliffe]

Read only? Disk space? Administrator account?

[BIzO]

Administrator account

[DaveWS]

Clutch is great now with X36 (hadn't tested all the previous versions), in XFG it "grabs" a lot quicker now.. :nod:
Discussing with my teammates i gotta say that they are right with one thing, and it's that XFR and UFR should really have that Ignition cut :shrug: it's quite an cheap modification to the car and i think all the cars that resemble a "race" car should have that, it's 2008 and all, although i hate this new technology gimmiks bullshit, i gotta say that they are right that newer race cars almost all have an ignition cut, so if we strive for realism we should (unfortunately) have that driver assist in cars that have it in real life.. :shrug:

Thing is, a similar car to the small FWD GTR car's IRL have h-shifting gearboxes. The small GTR's in LFS all have h-shifting gearboxes. Ignition cut systems are only applicable to sequential gearboxes.

[zeromussov]

servers down?

-up again:)

[VoiD]

Hi!
I'm at work at the moment so I have spare (CPU:)) time for some AI testing.
Unfortunately I can not go through the firewall and use the auto updater, and have X35 installed.
Could someone post a link to X36 please? Thank you

:smileypul

[kaynd]

This is better Scawen.:D
As for the way you calculate the clutch strength.
It should be a combination of power and engine inertia

If we have two engines with the same power curve, the one which has more inertia doesn’t necessarily need a stronger clutch.
It all depends in the given time both engines how much energy they can store in rotational inertia.

Eg while been airborne after a bump for about half a second, at that given time in which the engines just increase revs, the one with the heavier inertia will just reach lower revs comparing with the lighter.
Unless the engine with the lighter interia hit the rev limiter and stop storing energy in rotational force, both engines are going to store the same amount of energy and the stress on the clutch will be the same when the car lands again.
If the lighter engine hit the rev limiter in that given time, the one with the heavier inertia will store more energy and stress more the clutch so in that case the “heavier” one indeed need’s a stronger clutch.

A simple example.

Let’s say that XRG’s engine inertia is able to store twice as much energy in rotational force while been at 7000rpm comparing to what the XFG can store in 7000rpm.
This doesn’t mean that the XRG needs twice the clutch strength to hold that maximum inertia force.
Because in a given short time (that half second while the car flies over those big bumps in rallyX) XRG’s engine is not that more powerful over XFG’s, to store twice the engine’s rotational inertia force.

I am saying that, because still the XRG’s clutch seems to last way longer in the same conditions comparing to XFG’s as JTbo (http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=80) mentioned.

Anyway I think there is not anything else you can do now, patch Y is coming soon and the clutch is much more usable now in some cars which had problems.:nod:

Just promise us that you are going to work it again in the future, with some real data because now I think it is pretty much guess work:tilt:

[Starblue]

Thank you very much for your stories, comments and test results! :)

I think you will find the new X36 an improved version. Clutch heating is back to X33 levels but six of the cars have a stronger clutch. The stronger clutch was worked out purely by engine inertia. So clutch strength is now the larger value of that required for engine torque, and that required to deal with the engine rotational inertia.

I loaded all the cars and found that these ones were changed : UF1 / XFG / XRG / LX4 / LX6 / FZ5
I did again the "High Gear Start Clutch Burnout Test" with X36 and here's the results:
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6724/clutchtestx36or2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Steps for the test:
1) Wait for the green lights to start the race
2) Shift-up to the highest gear without touching throttle (using autoclutch)
3) Floor down the throttle
4) Drive around the oval keeping max throttle until the clutch burns out or until it becomes stable orange

Tested all cars except MRT.

Notes:
1) All cars except UF1 and RAC reach "red heat" during the test.
2) Excluding single seaters, only UFR, XFR and FZR manage to completely burn their clutch during the test. It looks like GTR cars haven't got a clutch strong enough for this test. FXR and XRR probably save themselves as the turbo cannot give full power at low rpms and so they have a "softer" start.
3) I noticed a bug with FZ5: during the slow start the clutch "fluctuated" (instead of reducing gradually) and at the same time the throttle "flickered". While I think the clutch can behave "as it wishes" being an autoclutch, I was keeping my throttle pedal floored all the time, so I don't think the throttle power should have flickered.
I tried the FZ5 start many times and it always produced this behaviour (and it was the only car which did it).
4) Among single seaters, FOX was the only one which didn't burn its clutch.
5) BF1 was the only car which took several laps to completely burn its clutch: the clutch of all the other cars, when reaching a certain "temperature threshold" (about half the bar) would "give up" and you would see the rpms suddenly burst high as the engine is "set free" by the transmission and clutch burns out rapidily. The BF1 instead kept a balance between "slipping/transmitting the power" even at high temperatures and the clutch only slowly overheated to the full bar.

Replay of the FZ5 bug attached :)

[kaynd]

In BF1 and FZ50, traction control acts like clutch slip control, it’s a known problem:)

[migf1]

I didn't have the time to extensively test the new patch, but I'm really happy about how the whole thing is evolving. Much more realistic and fun!

Thumbs up!

[MarioX]

Haven't watched the replay, but are you sure that wasn't just Traction Control limiting engine throttle ? :scratchch

[DeKo]

Replay of the FZ5 bug attached :)

Thatll be the traction control going mad, try turning it off, should get better resuts.

[m3marte]

This is not a "LFS Request", but a "request of LFS" :tilt:

Sorry if this is the wrong place to request something.

Could someone post the X34 patch? I'm a collector (as well as the majority, I hope :D) and was at work yesterday afternoon.

Thanks id advance!

[the_angry_angel]

Could someone post the X34 patch? I'm a collector (as well as the majority, I hope :D) and was at work yesterday afternoon. Doesn't look like it made it to the rest of the mirrors (or mine at least) :shrug:

[df_limitless]

Hello.

This is a really nice patch, and I would like to make one small comment.

Having to turn the engine off, and then back on, after an engine stall is a clever feature. However this is not required when the fuel runs out, as the engine is automatically turned off. That is, after I run out of fuel and come to a stop, I need only press the ignition button once to [attempt to] turn the engine back on, not twice as in the case of a stall.

[Bob Smith]

How so?

[JTbo]

Hello.

This is a really nice patch, and I would like to make one small comment.

Having to turn the engine off, and then back on, after an engine stall is a clever feature. However this is not required when the fuel runs out, as the engine is automatically turned off. That is, after I run out of fuel and come to a stop, I need only press the ignition button once to [attempt to] turn the engine back on, not twice as in the case of a stall.

You need to think about car key in real car here, when engine stalls key is still in ignition position, while if engine is turned off it is in off position.

When fuel runs out I believe key is turned to off automatically if case is such as you describe (haven't tested it yet), but anyway after some time not driving it is turned to off to exclude car from physics calculations.

[dougie-lampkin]

X36? Scawen just keeps churning them out! He's a patch machine!

[tristancliffe]

You need to think about car key in real car here, when engine stalls key is still in ignition position, while if engine is turned off it is in off position.

When fuel runs out I believe key is turned to off automatically if case is such as you describe (haven't tested it yet), but anyway after some time not driving it is turned to off to exclude car from physics calculations.

If you run out of fuel in real life, the ignition stays on.

[nesrulz]

GO! GO! GO! ignition cut for XFR/UFR. :static:

[df_limitless]

Yep tristancliffe nailed the point I was trying to make. In real life your ignition stays on, but in LFS it automatically turns it off as soon as you run out of fuel.

[Bob Smith]

Aha, that makes more sense now. I've never run out of fuel so I can't comment on the issue.

[BigTime]

Clutch restored to X33, and here I thought we where making progress. I thought the reducing of 25% would be perfect. With the clutch as is your going to have to pick moments during a race (endurance style) to slow down and the let the clutch cool and slowing down never has been in my vocabulary. :D

[Breizh]

Okay everyone can stop to cry now, speedos we're updated... :shrug:
Looks perfect.. Perfect compromise to see your speed at a glance.

[geeman1]

With the clutch as is your going to have to pick moments during a race (endurance style) to slow down and the let the clutch cool and slowing down never has been in my vocabulary. :DNo you don't, just don't heat the clutch in the first place and it will last forever (no flatshifting and stuff).

[[RF]-art555]

Clutch restored to X33, and here I thought we where making progress. I thought the reducing of 25% would be perfect. With the clutch as is your going to have to pick moments during a race (endurance style) to slow down and the let the clutch cool and slowing down never has been in my vocabulary. :D

Allthough it clutch heat was restored to X33 value clutch's strenght was changed ;)

[ITA-Diablo]

I've found this strange thing while running an AI race.

Track: AS GP
Car: raceabout

1) I enter garage, set skin, setup, fuel level, etc
2) I select add AI several times for adding oter AI cars
3) when i start race, fuel level is set to default, not to the fuel leveli've set in garage
4) if I modify a car fuel level, then i select anoter car and came back to the previous modified one, it's back to the original fuel level, not the one i've set before.

Not tested any other track/car combos, don't know if it's really a bug or i've done something wrong.

[Breizh]

The point is, a RACING car (whether it be formula, touring, or rally...FFS..even STREET racers!!!) have UPGRADED HEAVY DUTY CLUTCHES that can take a bit more abuse than a standard road car.
If you take a REAL Caterham/Lotus 7/Whatever onto a track, no matter HOW hard you push it (UNLESS you 'ride' the clutch for the entire distance!), you would expect the clutch to last a bit more than 5 laps before it fried!!!!

Just to clarify, I am not whinging personally, but it is an obvious glitch..it doesn't worry me if it is improved or not..in fact it gives ME (and all other G25 users) a definate advantage...there is no way on this planet that I should be faster over 5 laps than Freeliner and Sir.Pingo.
10 laps or so in the LX6 at Chicane Course, laps 1-5 shifted normaly, 6-9 flatshifts, 10 and 11 random shifts. 1-5 the clutch heats up a little but no more than maybe 30-50% of the orange heat range, laps 6-9 near the limit but never red except for a fraction of a second on (IIRC) lap 9, and on one lap after lap 10 (11 or 12 or something), I do one lap or so with normal shifts, and the temperature cuts in half, back down to normal values...
So that squad of guys you mentioned somehow did something worse than flatshift every shift for 5 laps... unless the LX4 is a totaly different story.
It's still proof that whatever flaw there is in the clutch temp. model, it's less significant than 5 laps of flatshifts' worth.

edit - I don't have time to read 10+ pages.. Disregard this post if the heat problem was fixed sometime between the post I quoted and mine.. oops. The replay was made with X36.

[Danielw597]

I'll try it out in a min! :)

[Glenn67]

Clutch restored to X33, and here I thought we where making progress. I thought the reducing of 25% would be perfect. With the clutch as is your going to have to pick moments during a race (endurance style) to slow down and the let the clutch cool and slowing down never has been in my vocabulary. :D

Have you even tried the xfg, lx6 or any other car that has recieved stronger clutches in x36 :p

They seem near on indistructable to me now :razz: so should be no problem for endurance racing :smileypul you would have to really mess up more than once to get in trouble :x

[JTbo]

Have you even tried the xfg, lx6 or any other car that has recieved stronger clutches in x36 :p

They seem near on indistructable to me now :razz: so should be no problem for endurance racing :smileypul you would have to really mess up more than once to get in trouble :x

Spinning at 3rd and keeping throttle floored while auto clutch engages ignoring that completely burns clutch, nothing else can do it in XRG at least.

So flatshifting is not punished now in all cars, but what is desired really?

Stopping all flatshifting except few flatshifts here and there, or make sure all cars can finish races on tracks where they are meant to be raced on?
Something between middle would be perhaps situation that most could live with, however time is limited and this issue has taken lot of time already.

I'm thinking here that maybe we can live a bit longer with flatshifting problem until new engine and clutch models are made as long as cars are actually raceable?

[Cue-Ball]

I've found this strange thing while running an AI race.

Track: AS GP
Car: raceabout

1) I enter garage, set skin, setup, fuel level, etc
2) I select add AI several times for adding oter AI cars
3) when i start race, fuel level is set to default, not to the fuel leveli've set in garage
4) if I modify a car fuel level, then i select anoter car and came back to the previous modified one, it's back to the original fuel level, not the one i've set before.

Not tested any other track/car combos, don't know if it's really a bug or i've done something wrong.That's how it's supposed to work. Fuel level is not tied to car setup and never has been (not even for when you are driving). The AI select the amount of fuel that they need given the car they're driving, the track they're on, and the number of laps.

[Hockquan]

...

I did a similar test with the XRT on BL1. I flatshifted the whole way just to see how long it would take to burn a clutch out. It hit red at the start of lap 5 I think, I don't recall exactly. I wasn't consistent or trying to be but I can safely say that I could just notice a difference in speed from a 'just red clutch' and I was looking for the difference. If i wasn't looking for the speed loss then I wouldn't have noticed it that quickly. That was on X32 I think.

Just tried the same with the FZR at BL1 in X36. Flatshifting the whole time turned my clutch red just before the 1st split of lap 4. It then fluctuated between red and orange between shifts and was firmly red by around split 2 of lap 4, firmly meaning it stayed red not that the bar had gone up loads or anything. I imagine it would have got worse if I kept going but as far as I'm concerned at least 3 laps of being ultra abusive on the clutch is more than enough leeway considering that modulating the quick pedal a bit keeps the clutch all the way down at 1 bar of orange.

The only reliable method of clutch destruction (ok overheating being as it isn't actually destroyed) that I've discovered is being in far too high a gear for your speed. Under normal racing the current clutches are more than strong enough.

As for whether or not this level of durability is realistic I have no idea, but I guess that racing teams aren't going to go out of their way to make clutches much stronger than they need to be and the current ones in LFS seem more than strong enough.

Am I missing something with this clutch overheating thing? I just can't see it being an issue during a race if you shift properly unless you have some sort of incident/make a mistake.

[Widdowmaker]

That's how it's supposed to work. Fuel level is not tied to car setup and never has been (not even for when you are driving). The AI select the amount of fuel that they need given the car they're driving, the track they're on, and the number of laps.

But wouldnt it be nice - when driving against a fleet of AI drivers to have them on different pit stratergies, Why would all teams choose to pit on lap 25 of a 50 lap race? for example.

I understand the orgional issue - Not every driver in every race would want to do that, exactly what the other guys does. Especially 2 guys in the same team - they would want different pit stop windows.

I think at this point - its fair to suggest that maybe we should be able to set the fuel level on AI cars, if desired.

Funny thing tho - they can decide how much fuel they need - yet they cant drive around a corner with out taking me out on the guy on there inside/outside.

Im really enjoying this testing phase - and Im well looking forward to AI developments. Cracking job.

[Cue-Ball]

But wouldnt it be nice - when driving against a fleet of AI drivers to have them on different pit stratergies, Why would all teams choose to pit on lap 25 of a 50 lap race? for example.In most non-endurance races, teams pit when a full course caution comes out. But since LFS doesn't have full course cautions, and since AI can't possibly know about them, we can't currently handle this case. Best case solution here is that if a car causes a yellow flag for more than, say, 20 seconds (assuming reset is disabled), LFS issues a full course caution for 1-2 laps and forces that car to spectate.

I understand the orgional issue - Not every driver in every race would want to do that, exactly what the other guys does. Especially 2 guys in the same team - they would want different pit stop windows.I think this is more a problem with the basics of the way LFS works than it is a problem of the AI. Every track in LFS has half as many pit boxes as it does garages. The AI aren't aware of this limitation, and neither are normal players. It's impossible for everyone on a full server to pit at the same time, and since people are assigned stalls as they join you don't even know who your "teammate" is. This makes it virtually impossible for pit sharing to work. We need some sort of way to assign people to certain pit areas and make those areas clearly visible so that drivers know which pit is theirs. Then, the AI need to be made aware of this as well.

I think at this point - its fair to suggest that maybe we should be able to set the fuel level on AI cars, if desired.I think that's a hacky and poor workaround. Right now the AI are great at determining the amount of fuel they need, how many stints they need to run, etc. I sure as heck don't want to have to assign every single AI a specific fuel level just to make them pit more "randomly". Especially if Scawen could do the same thing with a relatively straight forward logic fix.

What we really need is: Full course cautions, AI that are aware they may be sharing a pit box with another car (AI or human), and some sort of way for people to get assigned stalls/pits and be able to tell which one they are assigned to. And the AI being more aware of human drivers wouldn't hurt either, but Scawen said he's working on that.

[Flotch]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=405477#post405477
is that planned for Y? :shrug:
it seems not...:scratchch but that would not be too long to change, would it?

[ghost racer]

As for whether or not this level of durability is realistic I have no idea, but I guess that racing teams aren't going to go out of their way to make clutches much stronger than they need to be and the current ones in LFS seem more than strong enough.

Am I missing something with this clutch overheating thing? I just can't see it being an issue during a race if you shift properly unless you have some sort of incident/make a mistake.

All you can do to make a stronger clutch is. Either have More clamp force onto the clutch disc, or have a better gripping surface.

They ususally wear like a normal brake would, but if your exessively slip the torque you could "glaze" the clutch (almost turns to a glass like surface). But if you actually were to abuse it that bad, you can almost still can recover the grip of the surface from normal torqe transfering wear.

The heat is a good idea, but really you have more of a effect that your break pads have under heat.. I can be hard on my clutch but without slipping torque and get the clutch warm and it will never slip no matter how much I torque I put on it even in a high gear.


I think a temperature is good, when you get your clutch to over a normal operating heat (Very excessive "power shifting" and very hard down shifting.. Or just not applying the torque right really bad after all this abuse). Your clutch will get a glaze level (because if your slipping the torque and not applying it correctly, it will get really hot reguardless).
Using your clutch to transfering the torque effectively would reverse the "glaze state" back to the normal clutch surface state, and also cooling the clutch back to a normal temperature.

(I just think the "clutch heat" needs to go one step further IMO)

^I think a idea like this would make the most use out of the new "clutch heat".

[ghost racer]

The only other gripe I have about the new patch is the AI is almost too drone like.. They will plow into the back of you instead of finding a way around if they are able to overtake.

Or if your trying to pass but still holding the line with them they will push you off reguardless.. Maybe give them alittle room to feel crowded, if your not racing properly.. That will give you a disadvantage in the up comming turn.

I Just think the AI should represent the clean racing style, our community wants, not just a drone that holds the line and isn't aware of close surroundings.

I know this would be really hard to write into the game.. But I think that would tottaly perfect the AI :thumb:

[ghost racer]

Also while I'm on the topic of my future Patch wish list... :D

A realistic in game car I feel were lacking is a Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint GT "like" car. Slightly underpowered RWD car, small handels great.

We could have a race like version and a stock. (check attachments :))

Someone mentioned a RS4 "like" car.. I think that would be a great 6cyl AWD stock class, that would outclass the RB4.

Everyone wants a V8.. Maybe a AC "like" car, so we could have muscle and a roadster that isn't open wheeled (two birds one stone IMO).

I think all these are great european options that would realisticly add to this game very nicely.

[Dillyracer]

The only other gripe I have about the new patch is the AI is almost too drone like.. They will plow into the back of you instead of finding a way around if they are able to overtake.

Or if your trying to pass but still holding the line with them they will push you off reguardless.. Maybe give them alittle room to feel crowded, if your not racing properly.. That will give you a disadvantage in the up comming turn.

I Just think the AI should represent the clean racing style, our community wants, not just a drone that holds the line and isn't aware of close surroundings.

I know this would be really hard to write into the game.. But I think that would tottaly perfect the AI :thumb:

Scawen said he was going to work on that.

[Origamiboy]

XRT IN DEMO PLIZ XRT IN DEMO T_T:(
cars lfs demo
XRT, XFG XRG ,FBM


no take off is XRT in demo pliz


Its called a 'demo' for a reason...

[Dillyracer]

XRT IN DEMO PLIZ XRT IN DEMO T_T:(
cars lfs demo
XRT, XFG XRG ,FBM


no take off is XRT in demo pliz


Why not the RB4, FOX,FO8,BF1, LX4, LX6 and so on ? And much more tracks offcourse, much more tracks !

[JTbo]

Bit more 'testing'
14 laps of SO6R with LX4 racing and guys did say clutch was rather ok even they flatshifted whole race.

[Widdowmaker]

In most non-endurance races, teams pit when a full course caution comes out. But since LFS doesn't have full course cautions, and since AI can't possibly know about them, we can't currently handle this case. Best case solution here is that if a car causes a yellow flag for more than, say, 20 seconds (assuming reset is disabled), LFS issues a full course caution for 1-2 laps and forces that car to spectate.

At the moment, whats in development is the AI and how they behave. Im sure at this point of development, what ever the Dev team decide on what needs to happen to get to patch Y is going to happen, and full course cautions are not in the plan at this stage (?).


I think this is more a problem with the basics of the way LFS works than it is a problem of the AI. Every track in LFS has half as many pit boxes as it does garages. The AI aren't aware of this limitation, and neither are normal players. It's impossible for everyone on a full server to pit at the same time, and since people are assigned stalls as they join you don't even know who your "teammate" is. This makes it virtually impossible for pit sharing to work. We need some sort of way to assign people to certain pit areas and make those areas clearly visible so that drivers know which pit is theirs. Then, the AI need to be made aware of this as well.

I wasnt even thinking about that (pit sharing)- I recall in LFS that AI used to use the fuel that I did. What I started the race with so did they.

Im not sure full course cautions are an option, just like my suggestion, at this point, maybe it will mean a new level of coding??? I do understand that what you are doing is suggesting that tho, not inferring that thats what is happening.

When you refer to team mates - that brings me on to AI racing online - I went on to the AI online server (which is pretty funky) and all my cars all pitted on the same lap - I would like to be able to get them to pit on different laps to help each other in the race, as they can in real life. BY pitting on different lap, which I cn decide - it allows them to hold up other cars, or find a gap in the traffic, and help there team mates (team rules) or hinder oppostion. Maybe they should be able to decide to do that themselves?????

LoL - heres me wanting LFS to be come a team management Sim.


I think that's a hacky and poor workaround. Right now the AI are great at determining the amount of fuel they need, how many stints they need to run, etc. I sure as heck don't want to have to assign every single AI a specific fuel level just to make them pit more "randomly". Especially if Scawen could do the same thing with a relatively straight forward logic fix.

Ohhh I would - I would then save that classic pit line up and share with you all for some fun - AI watching - or AI Beating. I am a bit of a stratergy geek and like fiddling like that. Especially if the reawrd mean the end justified the means. Im not a turn up and go person. I do like to work at things a bit.
I do agree that the fix should be straight forward logic.


What we really need is: Full course cautions, AI that are aware they may be sharing a pit box with another car (AI or human), and some sort of way for people to get assigned stalls/pits and be able to tell which one they are assigned to. And the AI being more aware of human drivers wouldn't hurt either, but Scawen said he's working on that.

Yes they will all be good in the end - agreed.

Sorry for the long post but didnt want to just quote bits and miss quote you in anyway. Just like LFS this will grow and develop accordingly, and Im sure any suggestions made here - will be most likely never seen.

[Mazz4200]

Bit more 'testing'
14 laps of SO6R with LX4 racing and guys did say clutch was rather ok even they flatshifted whole race.
Damn you were quick...

But yeah, didn't realise the clutch had been changed until we did the last 14 lap race, so i tried flatshifting to see how far i could get, and only got a few problems at the very last corner of the race.

Gotta say it was no fun at all, even though i beat my PB by 1.5 secs, it was far to easy, the challenge has gone, never missed a gear change, never dropped a couple of cogs by mistake, really really no fun at all.

Not that it makes any difference Scawen, but i aint happy with this.....Please bring back the (enforced) challenge. Ok so i can chose not to flatshift, but for me that means a choice between last place and err second to last place (possibly) Granted you've got to strike a balence to keep all the punters happy, but the previous clutch settings Patch 33 i think it was, was fine. I never had any problems with clutch heat when lifting off throttle during changes, and i'm one of the most cack-handed drivers out there, so if i can look after my clutch anyone can.

[JTbo]

Damn you were quick...

But yeah, didn't realise the clutch had been changed until we did the last 14 lap race, so i tried flatshifting to see how far i could get, and only got a few problems at the very last corner.

Gotta say it was no fun at all, even though i beat my PB by 1.5 secs, it was far to easy, the challenge has gone, never missed a gear change, never dropped a couple of cogs by mistake, really really no fun at all.

Not that it makes any difference Scawen, but i aint happy with this.....Please bring back the (enforced) challenge. Ok so i can chose not to flatshift, but for me that means a choice between last place and err second to last place (possibly) Granted you've got to strike a balence to keep all the punters happy, but the previous clutch settings Patch 33 i think it was, was fine. I never had any problems with clutch heat when lifting off throttle during changes, and i'm one of the most cack-handed drivers out there, so if i can look after my clutch anyone can.

It is BL2 with XFG where this all is coming from, in old patch x30 it was not possible to AI cars finish 20 lap race and fairly impossible for human racer to make that at racing speed, bit like snail race.

Change has to be based to some physics, so latest change did cause XFG in BL2 to work pretty well but as that change did affect to some other cars too, it made those such that one can easily flatshift on race.

So now it might be bit of choice between two situations or then Scawen would need to work even more with issue that I believe has taken quite lot of precious time already.

[Mazz4200]

Yeah i understand the situation.

To be honest i really don't understand all the techy side of things, but all i know is it's still possible to flatshift without causing too much damage to the clutch in my beloved LX's, will have to go try the RAC too.

Having said all this, i'll just go on lifting the throttle during changes and be happy with last place, i'm not too bothered to be honest. These cars are so much fun even at 30mph :D

Incidently, i guess i should have mentioned i was using autoclutch, upon reflection i suppose that was quite an important fact i missed out :shy:

[steve]

haha wow, taking off a few times, slipping the clutch gently like a real road car, and the clutch pretty much burns right out. Hopefully this issue gets resolved soon :)

[JTbo]

haha wow, taking off a few times, slipping the clutch gently like a real road car, and the clutch pretty much burns right out. Hopefully this issue gets resolved soon :)

If you manage to do that with x36, you are doing it wrong, sir :)

[Widdowmaker]

haha wow, taking off a few times, slipping the clutch gently like a real road car, and the clutch pretty much burns right out. Hopefully this issue gets resolved soon :)

You should never slip the clutch, in any shape sense or form. Find the biting point, and pull away - any slippage should last bit a brief moment - and you under power. No need to slip at all.

[lake10]

Well i dont post a lot but i play LFS for years now.
I didnt red all posts but i have some questions or remarks.

I use manual clutch for years on button.
It took me time to learn it.

I can understand that its maybe not the best realistic way to drive.
Im ready to change and learn new way of driving...but...

I tried manual clutch with button on the new patch (the latest released today X36) and i cant make 5 laps without killing it.

After that i tried auto clutch were you have to release pedal before switching gear.
Down shift is ok but up shifting is a nightmare.

Most of time i miss gears cos i release my pedal fast and i think my hardware dont answer as fast it must be.
Im losing so much time with that technic.

Why not letting a bigger reliability to the clutch to let manual clutch drivers still using it(with button).
Maybe canceling clutch failure.

Otherwise, new patch is good and i appreciate all the work done, but i have a bad taste about that new way of driving.

[JTbo]

Well i dont post a lot but i play LFS for years now.
I didnt red all posts but i have some questions or remarks.

I use manual clutch for years on button.
It took me time to learn it.

I can understand that its maybe not the best realistic way to drive.
Im ready to change and learn new way of driving...but...

I tried manual clutch with button on the new patch (the latest released today X36) and i cant make 5 laps without killing it.

After that i tried auto clutch were you have to release pedal before switching gear.
Down shift is ok but up shifting is a nightmare.

Most of time i miss gears cos i release my pedal fast and i think my hardware dont answer as fast it must be.
Im losing so much time with that technic.

Why not letting a bigger reliability to the clutch to let manual clutch drivers still using it(with button).
Maybe canceling clutch failure.

Otherwise, new patch is good and i appreciate all the work done, but i have a bad taste about that new way of driving.

You must lift throttle pedal even if you use button clutch, when driving cars that don't do it automatically.

When changing down you need to manually blip throttle so that revs are close to what they are when you release clutch.

With these adjustments to driving you might find it pretty good and strong :)

[ghost racer]

Down shift is ok but up shifting is a nightmare.

I've been using fully manual shifting with a clutch as a button for a few years now as well.. You just have to get better at timing the momentum of the gear before you shift up a gear. Also you will need to press the clutch in a little sooner, and you will need the clutch depressed the WHOLE time untill you get into the new gear.

I find upshifting just as easy.. but downshifting 20x more picky.. I thought it was more realistic being able to pop the car out of gear without a clutch (thats how I shift IRL).

[shiny_red_cobra]

After stalling the UF1, I went downhill will the engine off and ignition still on. I was going about 80 km/h, put it in 1st gear, and released the clutch. The car came to a stop, with a high clutch temp. But when I tried this with other cars, their engines came on at those speeds as soon as I released the clutch. Why does the UF1's engine not turn on when I do this?

[JTbo]

After stalling the UF1, I went downhill will the engine off and ignition still on. I was going about 80 km/h, put it in 1st gear, and released the clutch. The car came to a stop, with a high clutch temp. But when I tried this with other cars, their engines came on at those speeds as soon as I released the clutch. Why does the UF1's engine not turn on when I do this?

Did you noted which kind of rpm it did have?
Maybe it has so high compression powerful racing engine that at 1st gear there is no enough power to spin it at all :schwitz:

When you have engine at idle and you lift clutch there should be almost no clutch heat as getting crank spinning at gearbox speed should not require much of any effort from clutch.

[shiny_red_cobra]

I think you misunderstood my post. What I said was that the engine was off (RPM = 0) and I was coasting at around 80 km/h, and when I let go of the clutch in 1st gear the engine did not turn on, it just stayed at 0 RPM and the car came to a stop.

[Glenn67]

It is BL2 with XFG where this all is coming from, in old patch x30 it was not possible to AI cars finish 20 lap race and fairly impossible for human racer to make that at racing speed, bit like snail race.

Change has to be based to some physics, so latest change did cause XFG in BL2 to work pretty well but as that change did affect to some other cars too, it made those such that one can easily flatshift on race.

So now it might be bit of choice between two situations or then Scawen would need to work even more with issue that I believe has taken quite lot of precious time already.

I did a few test races last night with myself and AI around BL1 amd BL2 in XFG, XRG and LX6.

The XFG seems no problem now around BL2 the AI can finish a 15 lap race with minimal clutch heat and I finished the same race with the same heat as them but half a lap ahead so faster pace. Using momo with autoclutch, using default rallycross set. This was comparable to the XRG clutch heat over the same race.

On BL1 the XFG race with minimal clutch heat similar to the lx6 at patch x33 so seems about right. The LX6 on the other hand seems too easy now. I did a 15 lap race around BL1 and after 15 laps with proper blipping you couldn't even detect any clutch heat.

I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing :shrug: as irl would the LX6 have a better clutch for the car type etc than the XFG. And from what I understand if you flatshift in the LX6 it would still produce some heat which would effect slip on gear changes and impact lap times slightly?

Overall I think it's pretty good in X36 but it could possible be slightly less strong? Something like 75% between X33 and X36.

[gremwood]

Probably it could work like that:
20 - 40 - 60 - 80 - 100 -120 ...?
Would look a lot better to me at least, plus I liked the old, unreadable speedos :shy:

:thumb: It doesn't have to be all the same size, just have some more numbers in there.

[JTbo]

I think you misunderstood my post. What I said was that the engine was off (RPM = 0) and I was coasting at around 80 km/h, and when I let go of the clutch in 1st gear the engine did not turn on, it just stayed at 0 RPM and the car came to a stop.

No, I did not misunderstood. Clearly engines is so resistant to rotating it via clutch that it seems bit wrong.

[shiny_red_cobra]

Ahh I think the clutch was just slipping cause the temperature was in the orange (not even in the red), because with a new clutch the engine does start in the situation I described before.

Btw, I've been playing around with OutGauge the last couple of days, and I was wondering, will there will be a Clutch Temperature packet included in OutGauge in Patch Y?

[Jamesisinthehouse12]

Wtf, i can't download...
I'm only in X32 :really:
I had the same problem...
I was Admisistrator, but for some reason I needed to do this...

Solution:
1. Right-click the lfs shortcut
2. Click "Run as Administrator"
3. When Vista asks to allow it click "Allow"
4. When lfs starts click "Multiplayer", "Display List of Hosts" and download and enjoy!!! :thumb:

:tilt:

[Drunken Predator]

Well, ive been testing it.. I guess the look keys are ok.. but autolift and autoblip.. bit of work driving is, i have so large degree of range in my pedals that its very hard.. i might have to add curvature to the axle function so that lifting gets bit easier. I do like the fact that game is harder but my ankle refuses to agree so far, after all the controllers are so different from real cars.. i need a shifter! :)
I will heel and toe more as soon as progressive brake pedal for sims is brought for me.. Ive done it in GTL for example but it never comes natural braking with range of axle. I personally was able to kill the clutch in LX6 withing 8 laps of short track, too hard to be precise with lifting changing gears with bloody buttons.. point of my post.. there propably aint one.. but im sipping my morning coffee and had a tickle in the fingertips. :throwrose

[steve]

Any way to look back while pressing left and right look like before? Only got 2 buttons on the wheel.

[Drunken Predator]

Any way to look back while pressing left and right look like before? Only got 2 buttons on the wheel.

Using a utility.. was it.. mouseview?
I think thats the only way.. or learn using mirrors.. i preferred the old look keys myself but then again its nice also to see 45 degrees.. it has come handy quite few times already.

[AndroidXP]

Nah, MouseLook cannot help him look *back* either, it was only useful in the small time period where people couldn't adjust the look range from 30° to 90° so they were able to get instant 90° look with my tool. ;)

[Bladerunner]

. point of my post.. there propably aint one.. but im sipping my morning coffee and had a tickle in the fingertips. :throwrose


Like that...you have been offishully quoted!!

[DeXteRrBDN]

Scawen, could I make a question?

Is the generated clutch temperature RPMs dependent? I mean, the temperature generated spinning the clutch at 1000rpms should be fewer than spinning at 9000rpms, shouldn't it?

I'm asking this because I've been trying to hold XF GTI and XR GT at the Oval's elevated track part as if I was waiting for a red traffic light at a ramp. The clutch gets red in a few seconds, no matter if slipping at 2000rpms or at 8000rpms

IRL, I suppose (not tried) a standard clutch would not get burned in 10 seconds or less.


BTW, is so difficult to hold the car at the ramp with few RPMs, I think the clutch is engageing too much with one milimeter clutch release. For example, with one milimeter release, the car can stall if no throttle (with or without a ramp).

PS: I talked about X36 using XF GTI and XR GT all the time.

[MAE_2007]

All nice those patches but when is Patch Y coming out? And another thing is that when i'm racing theres loads of lag so when i push shift+n to turn the sound of he game runs better directly. I don't know if that should be posted here but i get confused of all those topics after a while.

PS: Thanks for the FBM ;-)

[tristancliffe]

Later this week

[kaynd]

Thanks but I'm thinking about my month after Christmas, Patch Y will be out this week! :)
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=635427#post635427

As for the LAG .. maby it isn't lag but just frame drops caused by your hardware? i know that current LFS's sound system uses a lot the CPU but I don't think it effects lag.

[JTbo]

x37, he is working very hard :thumb:

So let's test how AI handles now :)

[Ospi]

Dling it now, wonder how significant the SO updates are.

[AndroidXP]

Scawen's a machine!
I bet for his first few holiday nights he'll dream in C++ :D

[hackerx]

Every time when restarting after auto update, I get this:

InSim - TCP : bind failed
InSim : not initialised

LFS doesn't kill the socket? Might be though that Windows doesn't process it fast enough.

[Doorman]

I think I've found a bug that hasn't been reported. At least I haven't bee able to find it.
Concerns Dedicated server: Setup.cfg is set for 10 laps. When the server is restarted it defaults to 5 laps. The .cfg file does not change. Can't be a feature surely. :scratchch

[Jamesisinthehouse12]

Thanks for the X37 update... the new patch is looking great!!! :thumb:
Great work Developers!!!
:laola:

[Jamesisinthehouse12]

Every time when restarting after auto update, I get this:

InSim - TCP : bind failed
InSim : not initialised

LFS doesn't kill the socket? Might be though that Windows doesn't process it fast enough.
I found it was Windows Firewall... allow it thru that and mine worked fine :thumb:

[Scawen]

I think I've found a bug that hasn't been reported. At least I haven't bee able to find it.
Concerns Dedicated server: Setup.cfg is set for 10 laps. When the server is restarted it defaults to 5 laps. The .cfg file does not change. Can't be a feature surely. :scratchchWhen the server is restarted? Or just started?

I mean, is the bug simply that LFS ignores the number of laps in setup.cfg and always goes to 5 laps?

[Korski]

Blah cant wait anymore patch X, when is patch X coming? Any date ?

[Flame CZE]

Blah cant wait anymore patch X, when is patch X coming? Any date ?

it will be patch Y and i think scawen said this week

[Doorman]

When the server is restarted? Or just started?

I mean, is the bug simply that LFS ignores the number of laps in setup.cfg and always goes to 5 laps?

Yes exactly, I've tried it several times. Update patch, restart server, defaults to 5 laps. Restarted server ordinarily and it still defaults to 5 laps. Checked each time that setup.cfg is 10 laps...it is. This has been noticed since about X34/35. Sorry, I can't be specific about which patch started it.

[Scawen]

Every time when restarting after auto update, I get this:

InSim - TCP : bind failed
InSim : not initialised

LFS doesn't kill the socket? Might be though that Windows doesn't process it fast enough.OK I've fixed that. You will still get that error when you update X37 to X38. but it will be ok when you update X38 to X39.

[ninja469]

When the server is restarted? Or just started?

I mean, is the bug simply that LFS ignores the number of laps in setup.cfg and always goes to 5 laps?

Hi Scawen, just tested patch 37 and yes it defaults to 5 laps on startup, and if you do a /reinit it defaults back to 5 laps also.
Hope that helps, and great job so far m8 keep it up please:thumb:

[-V-Max-]

I'm not sure where i should place this (AI or interface or physics?)

So i'm doing it here..

I was testing out the new 'tyre wall' on FE rallycross (the long, normal layout) I noticed the AI took .7% per lap (and so states in the setup screen) I was slightly faster but with 1% fuel usage.. Don't think a couple of seconds per lap makes me consume .3% more than the 'average'?

I wasn't able to check the real consumption of the AI, just because you can't view fuel consumption from your competitors..

Anyway, check it out.

Cya

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I noticed the AI took .7% per lap (and so states in the setup screen) I was slightly faster but with 1% fuel usage.. Don't think a couple of seconds per lap makes me consume .3% more than the 'average'?


A couple of seconds is a BIG gap over a lap, especially a short lap.

[mcgas001]

Scawen, I "think" there might be a bug in the VTC in the insim, if i try and send 1 on a server with more then a few people it fails, am i missing something or is it a bug?

[ninja469]

Hi Scawen, just tested patch 37 some more.
On AS7 in FBM after a race the AI's drive straight through the pits, that's after a bit of swerving in pit lane and then run out of gas on track.
After watching a few races, it looks like it's because they come too fast into the final S and almost loose it at pit entry.

[Scawen]

Hi Scawen, just tested patch 37 some more.
On AS7 in FBM after a race the AI's drive straight through the pits, that's after a bit of swerving in pit lane and then run out of gas on track.
After watching a few races, it looks like it's because they come too fast into the final S and almost loose it at pit entry.Thanks, same at AS Cadet. Here's my description of the problem.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=638135#post638135

[ninja469]

Hi Scawen, just tested patch 37 some more.
On AS6R in FBM after a race the AI's have the same problem with running through the pits. They were fine on AS6 and AS7R.
It happens when their pit is first in the lane, they just come in too fast to stop in time, and over-shoot their box.

[Scawen]

Thanks - I fixed the others so I guess that one is fixed too, in X38, now released! :)

[Whiskey]

Less things to fix, less days to release of the Y Patch :)

[DanielC]

X38, now released! :)
And installed ... :thumb:

I take it there will be an X39 ? After after that ? :scratchch

[Scawen]

And installed ... :thumb:

I take it there will be an X39 ? After after that ? :scratchchI don't know, all I know is it's time to eat! :D

[tristancliffe]

Left hand holds the sandwich/pie/straw/fork

Right hand codes

Middl... no, better not.

[DanielC]

I don't know, all I know is it's time to eat! :D
Hahaha, I totally agree with that! Keep up the good work, and bonne appetite ... :D

[Patussay]

Great improvements ^^
but i am a bit confused... it's just me or is a bit weird that in a 7800gt, athlon 64 3700+ the game gets slow 30/40 fps with 14 people at the start grid on blackwood? (to be specific :P) :shy:

[Danielw597]

:) 2 in 1 day :P Good maaaan ;)

[okijuhans]

Patches are coming like mushrooms after rain.

[harjun]

Not sure where to put this, but for some reason, with the new X30-38 patches i can't connect multiplayer....so i had X30, reinstalled it, and then it worked, auto updated to X38, and now it's not working :(

In English: I start LFS>Click Multiplayer>It doesn't connect, comes up with the error message straight away......only does this with these new X30+ Patches :(

Please help

Thanks
Harjun

[ninja469]

Hi Scawen, just tested patch 38 and yes it has fixed the problem.
Good job:thumb:

[TheBandit_92]

This is sooooo cool
I can feel "Y" sneeking up on me :snowman:

[okijuhans]

Dont rush with Y. It doesnt give nothing only name LFS S2 Alpha Y. I rather wait till all problems are fixed.

[srdsprinter]

Great improvements ^^
but i am a bit confused... it's just me or is a bit weird that in a 7800gt, athlon 64 3700+ the game gets slow 30/40 fps with 14 people at the start grid on blackwood? (to be specific :P) :shy:
Not really odd at all. LFS is pretty demanding with a lot of cars out there. CPU presumably holding you back at this point. :(

[Electrik Kar]

I don't know, all I know is it's time to eat! :D

For some reason I hear the Popeye theme playing as Scawen eats his sandwitch and gets back to busting bugs :D

[JTbo]

For some reason I hear the Popeye theme playing as Scawen eats his sandwitch and gets back to busting bugs :D

Rofl, my thoughts exactly :thumb: :D

BTW, I'm getting pizza right now, got nice red pepper and tomatoes etc in it :razz:

[Doorman]

Default to 5 laps sorted. I knew it would be :)

[AndreABG]

when locking up the wheels the engine should stall (I don't think somebodys that fast on the clutch because you don't want to lock up normaly) - so when braking with locked wheels untill 0mph the engine should be off?

[JTbo]

when locking up the wheels the engine should stall (I don't think somebodys that fast on the clutch because you don't want to lock up normaly) - so when braking with locked wheels untill 0mph the engine should be off?

True if you use manual clutch, if autoclutch is on then it disconnects engine from gearbox in such situations.

[mcgas001]

cars demo
XRT, XRG , XFG , FMB
XRt in demo pliz pliz pliz

Buy S2 you get XRT as much as you want :D:D

[[RF]-art555]

cars demo
XRT, XRG , XFG , FMB
XRt in demo pliz pliz pliz

please stop making yourself look stupid...

The decision was already made and you have absolutly no influence on it.

IF you want XRT in demo then keep the X version

[ninja469]

Not sure where to put this, but for some reason, with the new X30-38 patches i can't connect multiplayer....so i had X30, reinstalled it, and then it worked, auto updated to X38, and now it's not working :(

In English: I start LFS>Click Multiplayer>It doesn't connect, comes up with the error message straight away......only does this with these new X30+ Patches :(

Please help

Thanks
Harjun

Have you checked to see if windoz firewall is blocking it.
That's what it sounds like to me, the exe changed and windoz sees it as a different file.

[Juls]

Great improvements ^^
but i am a bit confused... it's just me or is a bit weird that in a 7800gt, athlon 64 3700+ the game gets slow 30/40 fps with 14 people at the start grid on blackwood? (to be specific :P) :shy:

Same thing here. Two weeks ago I used 6600GT and got around 60-80 fps with a large grid (patch X10). Now I have 8600GT (other card died) and it is slower whatever settings I use (in game and in nvidia drivers).

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

when locking up the wheels the engine should stall (I don't think somebodys that fast on the clutch because you don't want to lock up normaly) - so when braking with locked wheels untill 0mph the engine should be off?

It does (assuming you lock all the driven wheels of course)

Then it starts again when the wheels unlock, since the ignition is on. ;)

[Cue-Ball]

It does (assuming you lock all the driven wheels of course)

Then it starts again when the wheels unlock, since the ignition is on. ;)But are we actually sure that this is happening? I know that it's pretty darn easy to clutch-in to prevent stalling the car, even when it gets down to only a few hundred RPM. Given the clutch and engine behavior, it wouldn't surprise me if the wheels were locking up but the clutch was slipping enough for the engine to keep running.

I'm sure that it will be addressed in a future patch anyway, but I have a feeling it's not really working as we assume it is.

[kingfag]

i can't unlock x38? it says "wrong version".

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

But are we actually sure that this is happening? I know that it's pretty darn easy to clutch-in to prevent stalling the car, even when it gets down to only a few hundred RPM. Given the clutch and engine behavior, it wouldn't surprise me if the wheels were locking up but the clutch was slipping enough for the engine to keep running.

I'm sure that it will be addressed in a future patch anyway, but I have a feeling it's not really working as we assume it is.

Fair enough, I guess I haven't tested it subsequent to the latest clutch mods, but the clutches are supposed to be even stronger now so I can't see that not working. Lock the wheels completely for a sec, THEN declutch, and you should note the engine stalled. Then reengage the clutch and off you go. At least it worked in the initial patch, I know that for sure.

[Scawen]

Same thing here. Two weeks ago I used 6600GT and got around 60-80 fps with a large grid (patch X10). Now I have 8600GT (other card died) and it is slower whatever settings I use (in game and in nvidia drivers).The new South City and Blackwood use much higher res textures now. Also the Formula BMW has more polygons than any other car.

Do you get a better frame rate if you turn down the texture resolution?

i can't unlock x38? it says "wrong version".Sorry, it will work now.

[chk]

Wow, it's amazing how fast Scawen works and releases new fixes :D


By the way, I noticed a thing using a sidewinder gamepad pro:
I need to press an analogue axis (the analogue directional pad) to "activate" the controller in game, the buttons simply don't work before that.
(i.e. I start an hotlapping session, accelerate [with a digital button] and nothing happens, then I steer [analogue axis] and everything works.)

I don't know neither if this is the right place to talk about this "problem" nor if I explained myself in a decent way but I hope so ^^ (my english is not perfect, I know :shy:)

[Napalm Candy]

Problem with some textures in Blackwood and south city. With X38 patch (and older)

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6527/x38southcity1te9.jpg
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2506/x38southcity2nr9.jpg
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3919/x38blackwood1kz6.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x38blackwood1ca1.jpg
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/7759/x38blackwood2wt3.jpg

EDIT by Scawen : Removed IMG tags (some people get quite angry about big IMG as they pay for bandwidth)

[Scawen]

Problem with some textures in Blackwood and south city. With X38 patch (and older)

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/6527/x38southcity1te9.jpg
http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2506/x38southcity2nr9.jpg
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3919/x38blackwood1kz6.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x38blackwood1ca1.jpg
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/7759/x38blackwood2wt3.jpg

EDIT by Scawen : Removed IMG tags (some people get quite angry about big IMG as they pay for bandwidth)Somehow you are missing textures. Looks like you missed one of the big patches.

Anyway, we are in the process of uploading ONE patch that goes from X to X38, for anyone who comes along and gets it for the first time this evening. You could get that and it will fix the problem. It will be ready in about 90 minutes or so, maybe 2 hours.

[axus]

Same thing here. Two weeks ago I used 6600GT and got around 60-80 fps with a large grid (patch X10). Now I have 8600GT (other card died) and it is slower whatever settings I use (in game and in nvidia drivers).

6600GT here, (3.0GHz P4 64bit, 512MB DDR400 so the rest of the machine is hardly to notch) and I get 90fps at 1280x1024 with 2x AA and 2x AF. Around 40 with 6 AI on the grid so I have no problems. Try to clean up your system up a bit an optimize the settings in Graphics (don't render things in the mirror if you don't need them, adjust the LODs a bit and so on). I've actually not tested any of the other tracks since the patch (I love the new SO and BL too much :) ) but I was getting the same FPS everywhere else before the patch.

Also, it's possible that the updated tracks strain your system more than the old ones and your GPU is overheating. Clean your GPU fan - I had that problem a while back.

[unseen]

Somehow you are missing textures. Looks like you missed one of the big patches.

There aren`t any textures with those filenames...

[axus]

OT: unseen - BEST AVATAR EVER. :D

[AndroidXP]

There aren`t any textures with those filenames...
Of course there are:

[unseen]

Doh, head`s right up my arse today. I`m looking in the wrong install.

Thanks Android :shy:

[Juls]

The new South City and Blackwood use much higher res textures now. Also the Formula BMW has more polygons than any other car.

Do you get a better frame rate if you turn down the texture resolution?


I was using a texture pack already with the previous card and total texture size was 60MB. Disabling full res textures almost does not change the framerate, but number of visible cars has a big influence.

To exclude BMW F02 poly counts and AI/netcode influence I started a solo game with 19 AI on fern bay and FZ50 and then I pause the game to have only pure display framerate. FPS varies between 110 and 25 depending how many cars are visible (I switch view from car to car while in pause)

Then, if I switch to windowed mode with the window covering the entire screen...FPS increases a lot!(145-41).
And if I play fullscreen, but keep the nvidia control panel opened with the nvidia green logo in directX turning in the background...I get increased framerate too! (145-41). 30% fps increase!

Note: I use 2560x1024 resolution

Forgot to say: thank you for the amazing amount of work.

[AndroidXP]

PS: If you pause the game, it won't show the real performance because physics and sound processing are turned off.

[Juls]

PS: If you pause the game, it won't show the real performance because physics and sound processing are turned off.

And AI too.
Yes it was done to measure pure-display performance. In pause I am sure the fps increase/drop I see comes from changes I do in graphic settings.
Now when not in pause with 19 AI about to start, there is a fps increase too (50 max - 14 min with different cameras) -> (60 max - 19 min) when nvidia control panel open in background.
It is still 20-35% fps increase. Seems that when DirectX device is re-created, something happens.

[hinirags]

As the speedos are being modified quite a lot these days I was wondering if it would be possible to have car specific settings concerning the colors of the displays (needles and characters).
Indeed I would love to be able to set a a color for each car since they fit more or less well to each "philosophy" of car.

[Scawen]

Thank you all for your contributions and testing.

I've now made a single patch which is exactly the same as the various patches that got you from X to X38.

I've made a new thread for that. The purpose of that is so people who come along this evening and try the test patch for the first time, will be testing something that is very close to the final Patch Y.

Note, you won't gain anything by downloading X to X38 patch, if you already have X30 or later. Just use the auto updater.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35520

I'll now close this 49 page, 1457 post thread! Thanks! :)