BUG REPORTS : Physics

[Scawen]

Please report any issues you find in the various physics updates in this thread.

Try to avoid duplicate bug reports.

[tristancliffe]

Only possibly a bug: Stalled cars without starter motor cannot be restarted even when it pitlane/garage.
Suggestion: Allow restarting, but with a time countdown to indicate the man at the back rushing around with starter equipment.

[shiny_red_cobra]

After the engine stalls, why do I have to press the ignition twice for the engine to start again? I tried it many times so far, and every time I had to press it twice to start.

Also, when the car is in neutral, you still need to press the clutch to start the engine. Right now you can start it without the clutch.

[Mikkel Petersen]

After the engine stalls, why do I have to press the ignition twice for the engine to start again? I tried it many times so far, and every time I had to press it twice to start.

Also, when the car is in neutral, you still need to press the clutch to start the engine. Right now you can start it without the clutch.
1. First you turn the ignition off, then on again.

2. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. It's only on newer cars you have to press the clutch to start the engine.

[Gil07]

When a car stalls IRL the ignition is still "ON". You have to switch it to "OFF" before starting again ;)

Also, when the car is in neutral, you still need to press the clutch to start the engine. Right now you can start it without the clutch.

You do? :shrug:

[shiny_red_cobra]

I drove an '89 Celica and I had to press the clutch to start the engine (when it was in neutral). How's that for a new car?

[AndroidXP]

After the engine stalls, why do I have to press the ignition twice for the engine to start again? I tried it many times so far, and every time I had to press it twice to start.

Because the ignition is still on. First press turns it off, the second press starts the engine.
Also, when the car is in neutral, you still need to press the clutch to start the engine. Right now you can start it without the clutch.Maybe that's true in modern cars to protect people who shouldn't have a license to begin with from doing stupid things, but there is no mechanical reason why you shouldn't be able to start a car in neutral, or any other gear for that matter.

E: Your car sucks then :p

[tristancliffe]

American cars have had that 'feature' for a while because too many stupid people in the Land of the Free kept driving cars into things on the starter motor and suing.

[Mikkel Petersen]

I drove an '89 Celica and I had to press the clutch to start the engine (when it was in neutral). How's that for a new car?
Tristan said it, it's only a couple of years ago since we got it in europe.

[shiny_red_cobra]

Alright guys, I see your points. But I don't remember having to switch the ignition to off, then back to on when I stalled. I thought you just had to start it again. :shrug:

[Mikkel Petersen]

Alright guys, I see your points. But I don't remember having to switch the ignition to off, then back to on when I stalled. I thought you just had to start it again. :shrug:
As well as with the "press clutch to start engine", the same goes with ignitions for different cars. :thumb:

[MAGGOT]

Alright guys, I see your points. But I don't remember having to switch the ignition to off, then back to on when I stalled. I thought you just had to start it again. :shrug:

That celica probably used a key for the ignition instead of a button. It works differently.

[Jax_KiBez]

I don't know is a bug or not but i just drove FOX in BL. And i used my old setup, witch i used to use in online races, but now my tires wear so much that after 1,5 lap they have gone red. I drive just like before and i don't slide around corners.

Is this intentional?

[Bean0]

I don't know is a bug or not but i just drove FOX in BL. And i used my old setup, witch i used to use in online races, but now my tires wear after 1,5 lap to red. I drive just like before and i don't slide around corners.

Is this intentional?
Racing tyres generate more heat and wear more quickly

:)

[danowat]

Anyone else noticed how easy it is to overheat the clutch? or is it just me stamping around on the pedals like an irate gorilla?

[Gil07]

In 2 laps of FBM at Blackwood I burned the clutch :x

[mrfell]

Anyone else noticed how easy it is to overheat the clutch? or is it just me stamping around on the pedals like an irate gorilla?

YUP same here turned on f9 half way thro lap 1 of bl in xfg and it was cooked!!! Oh YEAH BABY!!

[Gil07]

To be honest in the XFG it's quite easy to keep it cool ;)

[Blackout]

If you shut off the engine in BF1 it doesn't jump start while rolling like in all other cars. Is there a reason for this?

And I think it would it make sense to disable the ignition button in the BF1 so you can't switch the engine off by accident.

[Dark Elite]

Let's keep it on topic, guys, rather than taking the piss out of other people's pedal-stomping :p
Personally, I think the clutch modelling is pretty well done, as is the engine inertia.

My suggestion, though, is that the engines are far, far too difficult to stall - something like the LX4 will never be able to pull itself away at 400rpm with the clutch fully out, but it does at the moment ;)

Also, the new rev limits are set a little too low for my liking - I still believe making them customiseable is the way to go here - and the sound of the engine against the rev limiter is now, how shall I put this, somewhat horrible. It also seems that the volume of the air intake is drowning everything else out against the rev limiter. Not a bug, at least not that I can see, but hopefully something that can be ironed out before the final release.

EDIT to Blackout - Seeing as, as far as I know, it takes compressed air to get a Formula One car going in the first place, you're lucky you can restart it at all :razz:
This may be woefully outdated or inaccurate information, by the way

Sam

[Gil07]

You need to change the prefixes, ie change "FXO GTR_setupname" to "FXR_setupname"

I hope it'll be automatic in the full patch, but with a batch renamer it isn't hard to change.

[Dark Elite]

^ This one has already been covered in the main patch release thread, you need to rename your setting files from the full car name as a prefix to only the three-character car code as a prefix.

So, in 'settings', your setup named "BMW SAUBER_Development.set" would be moved to 'setups' and renamed to "BF1_Development.set".

This is more to do with Interface than Physics, I think
And I got beaten to it.

Sam

[HeerBommel]

I don't see my setups anymore..

There are 2 maps now "settings" and "setups"..
I copied all the setups from "settings" to "setups" but still can't see them, I only see "race_s" setup ????


Edit:
This topic was posted before Gil07's topic but after "edit" "delete" and pot again it's now after Gil07's topic :-)
but thanks anyway

[Jax_KiBez]

Change Formula XR_xxxxx.set to FOX_xxxx.set

[AndroidXP]

Read the threads (and the friggin changelog) please. The setups now use the three letter prefix, so you'll have to rename "XF GTi_MySet.set" to "XFG_MySet.set" now.

[SFL]

After the engine stalls, why do I have to press the ignition twice for the engine to start again? I tried it many times so far, and every time I had to press it twice to start.
FIX (for scawen): Put ignition switch and starter engine on seperate keys

If you shut off the engine in BF1 it doesn't jump start while rolling like in all other cars. Is there a reason for this?
Sounds like a bug to me! Might be related to ignition and starter motor being on the same key.

[Rocabiliz]

Read the threads (and the friggin changelog) please. The setups now use the three letter prefix, so you'll have to rename "XF GTi_MySet.set" to "XFG_MySet.set" now.
All of them manually? :jawdrop:

Well, it's not all bad.. the physics are incredibly different, so probably the sets don't work anymore.. :shrug:

[danowat]

Setup prefix has changed, I am hoping the full patch will convert old setups to the new naming format.....

As for not discussing the clutch, I think it's worth discussing, as I am not sure it's that easy to overheat a clutch......

[shiny_red_cobra]

I agree with DarkElite in that engines are way too hard to stall. Also, just when it's about to stall (when rpm is around 500) you can see the gas pedal rising even though you're not pressing it. Is this a "driving assist"? Is it so the engine is harder to stall? I think it should be looked at again.

[HeerBommel]

Thanks,

I see it now
I have to change all the names of all my setups..
(there are about 400 of them in my setups map) a lot of work..

[Gil07]

Thanks,

I see it now
I have to change all the names of all my setups..
(there are about 400 of them in my setups map) a lot of work..

Google is your friend ;) (http://www.google.pt/search?q=batch+file+renamer)

[BlakjeKaas]

If you put fix damage: [no]
and you blow your tires up, your tires get replaced (40 degrees) but they are not inflated (inside is black)

[Dark Elite]

FIX (for scawen): Put ignition switch and starter engine on seperate keysNo, because you don't use one key for turning the ignition on, and then another for starting the engine :p

In every car I've ever driven, you must turn the ignition key back at least one stage - usually all of the stages, right back to Full Off, so the car can reinitialise any electronic systems - for it to be possible to use the starter motor again. This makes two actions for for turning the engine back on after a stall, and so we must press I twice. Personally, I think it's a nice little touch of realism.
Sounds like a bug to me! Might be related to ignition and starter motor being on the same key.No, it's more to do with the automatic clutching system in the BMW Sauber - I've realised exactly why this happens now - it seems the car's electronics will not engage the clutch (and you can't force it to do so, seeing as it's fully automatic and all we can do is disengage the clutch with a button/pedal) after the engine has stalled until it's manually restarted: hence jump starts can't be done.

Also, just when it's about to stall (when rpm is around 500) you can see the gas pedal rising even though you're not pressing it. Is this a "driving assist"? Is it so the engine is harder to stall? I think it should be looked at again.This looks to be modelling the ECU intervening. Having realised that you're an eejit and have left the car to stall, the ECU (on most cars) will start to open the throttle to save the car. However, it usually can't catch anywhere near as big a mistake as we can get away with at the moment :p so the modelling is still quite inaccurate.

But hey, we're criticising a brand-new feature pretty heavily here. It's not too shabby for saying it's only just arrived on the scene ;)

Sam

[vicvega]

I think the rev limiter is still not realistic, it should cut of the ignition for a moment, when the revs reach maximum. I dont know, but i think is little to easy to overheat the clutch.

sorry for my english

[EeekiE]

Does anyone else find it hard to get the car rolling from a tame 3k rpm start? It's as if the engine is very very light or has no flywheel. It's feels to me like some paperclip crankshafted engine which has no inertia or inner friction to deal with lol.
Clutch heating and stalling are not affecting my racing at all. I get a pixel or so of clutch heating for the entire race using all manual controls, but it invariably means pulling off in 1st gear at near 6-7k just to stop the engine from being utterly swamped.

It seems if you hold it at 3k rpm, you need the smallest crack of throttle opening, which when you apply the small touch of clutch causes it to swamp down massively needing more throttle. The contrast of balance between the two pedals just feels massive. Even in the road cars.
My daily driver has an extensively lightend small capacity bottom-end and fly-wheel, along with a lot of supercharger drag, and a near on/off cerrametallic 3 paddle clutch and it's nowhere NEAR as bad as LFS.

Like I said it's not affecting my race at all, it's just now that stalling is a factor, and clutch wear is a factor, it may be something to look in to as a 2.5/3k brisk pull off in even the tamest of LFS's road cars seems to be a trick of timing, rather than just being sensitive.

[HeerBommel]

I found this little program (with google) :thumb:

http://www.filerenamer.net/file-rename-Download.htm

for batch file renaming, i try'd this on the Formula XR and all the setup names are changed into FOX in one step...:thumbsup:

[spanks]

the rev limiter is more like a racing chip rather than a fuel cutoff used in road cars. In the road cars, imo, it should hit cutoff, drop 300 rpm or so w/o ignition, then accelerate again. The rev limiter here is more like the ignition chips we use in our drag cars. They are probably what would be used in the racing cars.

The clutch seems to get pretty hot just from a normal takeoff. I was very easy on the clutch taking off, and I couldn't get a launch w/o heating the clutch. Now, I might be misinterpreting the damage meter, but any color in the clutch bar is bad right? (btw I have a g25 so I could modulate the gas and clutch like I normally would).

I think it would be cool to make it harder to launch the cars like someone suggested. It does seem like the lower horsepower cars are too hard to stall. However, with this clutch damage model I think they would fry the clutch just trying to move.

Also, I found that I could powershift, flatshift, whatever you wanna call it (clutch kick too) without penalty, or a very small one at that. I'm not sure how much it would damage the clutch, but in the future there should be some transmission damage to give a larger penalty to this.

I love the new racing line. It'll give me a lot more confidence to join servers on tracks I'm not 100% familiar with and feel like I won't be in the way :D

I'll probably have more soon, but this is all I have time for......finals week is approaching and I still have projects to do before I can study for them :(

Also, I'm really starting to feel the need for smell-o-speed where you fry your clutch and the lovely smell of burnt clutch dust comes wofting into the room :D

[SFL]

No, because you don't use one key for turning the ignition on, and then another for starting the engine :p

In every car I've ever driven, you must turn the ignition key back at least one stage - usually all of the stages, right back to Full Off, so the car can reinitialise any electronic systems - for it to be possible to use the starter motor again. This makes two actions for for turning the engine back on after a stall, and so we must press I twice. Personally, I think it's a nice little touch of realism.
I highly doubt that any race car uses a key and not a switch to turn ignition on/off. Maybe its realistic in uf1 but not in fbm
EDIT: Btw, none of the cars are normal road cars. They are all more or less modified. f.e. you can't change break balance on a normal road car.
No, it's more to do with the automatic clutching system in the BMW Sauber - I've realised exactly why this happens now - it seems the car's electronics will not engage the clutch (and you can't force it to do so, seeing as it's fully automatic and all we can do is disengage the clutch with a button/pedal) after the engine has stalled until it's manually restarted: hence jump starts can't be done.

If you turn the ignition off when the car is moving the clutch is still engaged for a while. If the ignition is turned back on while the engine is still turning it should start again, no?

[Dark Elite]

I highly doubt that any race car uses a key and not a switch to turn ignition on/off. Maybe its realistic in uf1 but not in fbmTrue, in a race car you would most likely have a separate ignition switch - which may use a key - and then a starter button. However, this would mean having different configurations for different cars, which may get confusing. Seeing as the road car system is that with which most people are familiar, that's what we get.
There is also the point that when a race car has been stalled, you would usually have to turn the ignition off and back on again - or perhaps override some switch or another - to be able to use the starter motor again, and this would be two actions, so we might as well keep those two on the same button to simplify things (not to mention removing the need for two configurations for different cars).
If you turn the ignition off when the car is moving the clutch is still engaged for a while. If the ignition is turned back on while the engine is still turning it should start again, no?Yes, it should. But I doubt you can turn the ignition of a Formula One car back on again after it has been turned off, for safety reasons, and so LFS currently doesn't allow us to turn the ignition back on either, never mind try and use a non-existent starter motor.


It's certainly worth noting that the clutch pedal (I've tested it on my DFP using the brake axis as a clutch) has no free movement whatsoever, and full clutch pedal depression is right on the biting point of the clutch. This means that anything but full pedal depression is resulting in the clutch being partially engaged, and so it feels somewhat different to real driving. This, EeekiE, might be where you're finding difficulty adapting to the clutch control needed, in that there's no free play in the clutch whatsoever.

However, I do think that the clutch engages rather too quickly, and as this doesn't seem to be different between cars (the only difference is how well the engine copes with it), we have a clutch in a hot hatch that is just as twitchy as one in a stripped-out 500bhp race car. Which strikes me as odd. :p

Smell-o-speed is something to be considered for S3 ;)

EDIT - Actually, something that's just occured to me - to engage a gear from neutral in the BMW Sauber, you now have to depress the clutch... Is this intentional, or a quirk of the new clutch system? This wasn't the case in X10, so I'm just wondering.

Sam

[SFL]

There is also the point that when a race car has been stalled, you would usually have to turn the ignition off and back on again - or perhaps override some switch or another - to be able to use the starter motor again, and this would be two actions
I've never heard of the fact that ignition needs to be switched off or similar to be able to use starter engine. I have no experience of real race cars but it seems illogical! Maybe someone knows for sure?

BTW: Anyone knows why throttle is applied while engine breaking in the bf1?

[dougie-lampkin]

One problem I've found is with the clutch overheating: (I've only tried this in BF1 though)

I get overheat-o-meter up to full red, where clutch plates should be melted, smelted and warped behond recognition. But after waiting 5 mins for the meter to show no heat (or damage, whatever it measures :shy:), the clutch is perfect again :shrug:

In reality, once your clutch plates are melted to that degree (or to the degree where there is no drive, anyway), once cooled, they join together, and cannot be prised apart (except with an abnormally large con-saw or angle-grinder and a free weekend :tilt:).

Just my input to the situation...

EDIT: another problem, starting while in gear...When you try and start a car in 1st gear with clutch 100% in, car starts, no problems there. But if clutch is so much as 99% in, car won't start...Not very realistic IMO...

[SFL]

One problem I've found is with the clutch overheating: (I've only tried this in BF1 though)

I get overheat-o-meter up to full red, where clutch plates should be melted, smelted and warped behond recognition. But after waiting 5 mins for the meter to show no heat (or damage, whatever it measures :shy:), the clutch is perfect again :shrug:

In reality, once your clutch plates are melted to that degree (or to the degree where there is no drive, anyway), once cooled, they join together, and cannot be prised apart (except with an abnormally large con-saw or angle-grinder and a free weekend :tilt:).

Just my input to the situation...
Clutch damage isn't added (yet)!

[dougie-lampkin]

Clutch damage isn't added (yet)!

It is, see changelog...
(or find out as I did, tearing up BL1 in XRT :D)

[abz1]

Not too sure if these are bugs...

1. You can change gears when the rev is on the limit(red) not requiring you to take your foot off the gas pedal.

2. You can change gears when you go over a bump also while your gas foot is down.

There is no clutch damage with the above methods.

[AndroidXP]

It is, see changelog...
(or find out as I did, tearing up BL1 in XRT :D)No, clutch heat is added, not damage. However, I think that overheated clutches already ruin your race anyway, so it's not like the missing clutch damage has a too high impact.

@spanks: regarding the clutch thingy in F9/F10 view, as long as the bar is orange everything is fine and you should have full clutch power. Once it turns red things worsen quickly and if you don't watch out your race is pretty much over by then.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Not too sure if these are bugs...

1. You can change gears when the rev is on the limit(red) not requiring you to take your foot off the gas pedal.

2. You can change gears when you go over a bump also while your gas foot is down.

There is no clutch damage with the above methods.

Transmission unloaded = possible to shift ;)

[dougie-lampkin]

I get overheat-o-meter up to full red, where clutch plates should be melted, smelted and warped behond recognition. But after waiting 5 mins for the meter to show no heat (or damage, whatever it measures :shy:), the clutch is perfect again :shrug:

No, clutch heat is added, not damage.

I wasn't too sure so I included both :tilt:

But still, after that much clutch heat, if indeed clutch heat will do enough damage (I don't mean damage as in wear or slip, I mean it as a problem :tilt:) to a clutch to stop drive altogether, I'd highly doubt if a 5 minute cool-down would result in a perfect clutch...

[deather]

Before, we couldn't go in neutral while the transmission was under load. It was realistic (at least for standard synchronized gearboxes, I think dogboxes can, not sure). But now, I can go to neutral while accelerating. (BTW, I use a H-shifter.)

Why that?

[AndroidXP]

That's the only way to fix the instant-shift exploit you were able to do with H-pattern shifters.

[ajp71]

Also, when the car is in neutral, you still need to press the clutch to start the engine. Right now you can start it without the clutch.

I've never driven a car where you have to press the clutch pedal to turn the starter motor.


In every car I've ever driven, you must turn the ignition key back at least one stage - usually all of the stages, right back to Full Off, so the car can reinitialise any electronic systems - for it to be possible to use the starter motor again. This makes two actions for for turning the engine back on after a stall, and so we must press I twice. Personally, I think it's a nice little touch of realism.

There's no mechanical reason why a starter requires the ignition to be turned off, it's just an anti-idiot device to stop the starter motor being engaged whilst the engine is running and the only racing car I can think of with anything other than a button starter is the Porsche 956, although I've got no idea whether you had to turn the key right off to restart a 956, although I'd love to find out some day ;)

What LFS needs is a starter button, I can't really see the point in having an ignition button anyway.


If you turn the ignition off when the car is moving the clutch is still engaged for a while. If the ignition is turned back on while the engine is still turning it should start again, no?

I think it does, I managed to bump start it at least going down hill at Blackwood, and it must restart after a lock up.

[dougie-lampkin]

That's the only way to fix the instant-shift exploit you were able to do with H-pattern shifters.

I could do it with a sequential setup on a joypad...was only for manual clutch-ers though...

[SFL]

I'd highly doubt if a 5 minute cool-down would result in a perfect clutch...Offcourse it won't!

In this patch heat is added not damage, maybe it will be in a future patch but right no only heat is simulated!

[dougie-lampkin]

Also (God, I'm really fixated on the new clutch :D), I tried holding the XRT with the clutch on the big jump at BLR, and clutch went red almost instantly. I was only using 1000-2000 RPM though. IRL, it wouldn't heat up that fast...now maybe I should try another part of the new patch...

[dougie-lampkin]

Offcourse it won't!

In this patch heat is added not damage, maybe it will be in a future patch but right no only heat is simulated!

I know, I'm talking about the heat, a real clutch at maximum temperature would NOT cool down after 5 mins...thats what I'm saying...

[deather]

That's the only way to fix the instant-shift exploit you were able to do with H-pattern shifters.

Mhhh, I see. Yeah, i've done it sometimes...:x

I can see a solution: if the driver engages a gear on its shifter, but doesn't depress the clutch, he would *have* to get out of the gear, then put it again (while clutching, this time...) for it to work.

Don't you think? :)

[SFL]

I know, I'm talking about the heat, a real clutch at maximum temperature would NOT cool down after 5 mins...thats what I'm saying...My bad! :x

[spanks]

if you yank hard enough you could pull the trans out of gear in theory...wouldn't want to...but you could.

putting it in gear at full throttle would be kinda horrible though

I was taught pretty much never to touch the shifter w/o the clutch engaged..common sense really if you understand how the drive train works. Its a pain in the ass teaching someone to drive stick who doesn't know how cars work :X I said I'd teach them how to drive stick not what an RPM was :banghead:

[pipa]

Why isn't it possible to shift gears without clutch?

Normally if you rev your car up and jam it in first you should be able to start it and shifting without the clutch while driving is possible anyways.

Have tried it with a old car on some large deserted area, so im sure it will work in rl.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Why isn't it possible to shift gears without clutch?

Normally if you rev your car up and jam it in first you should be able to start it and shifting without the clutch while driving is possible anyways.

Have tried it with a old car on some large deserted area, so im sure it will work in rl.

Because when you're transferring a lot of torque through the shafts, there is a lot of force there stopping you from pulling the collars out of the gears to disengage them (on an H pattern). Same principle but different mechanism for a sequential box.

Of course, the more torque there is being transferred the harder it is.

It's not so much a matter of clutching per se, it's a matter of unloading the shafts, which from everything I've read today is the way it is in LFS as well. Weehoo.

[pipa]

Because when you're transferring a lot of torque through the shafts, there is a lot of force there stopping you from pulling the collars out of the gears to disengage them (on an H pattern). Same principle but different mechanism for a sequential box.

Of course, the more torque there is being transferred the harder it is.

It's not so much a matter of clutching per se, it's a matter of unloading the shafts, which from everything I've read today is the way it is in LFS as well. Weehoo.

Took me quite a while to understand it as english is not my native language. And what you are saying is very interesting, eventhough as you said it is hard to do, but not impossible.
Why am i then not able to do produce it in LFS?

Edit:Found my answer sorry to bother http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=21535
And i was able to shift without using the clutch apart from the start, but if you get a push or stand on a hill and get to 4-6km/h you dont need the clutch at all. really amazing.

[wheel4hummer]

When a car stalls IRL the ignition is still "ON". You have to switch it to "OFF" before starting again ;)

That doesn't make sense. Why do you have to turn off the ignition before starting again? You just turn the key to "start" to run the starter motor. The ignition is on, why must you turn the ignition off and then back on before you start the engine?

[DeKo]

I really dont like that the handbrake is automatically on, which has probably been stated before somewhere in the topic.

[shiny_red_cobra]

That doesn't make sense. Why do you have to turn off the ignition before starting again? You just turn the key to "start" to run the starter motor. The ignition is on, why must you turn the ignition off and then back on before you start the engine?

That's what I was wondering when I posted about it at the beginning of this thread.

[BrandonAGr]

On cars like the lx6 when close to flat shifting(keeping gas down when pressing the clutch to shift then letting off the clutch) even on a fresh clutch the rpms will just slowly drop down to match what it should be at. It would seem like the clutch would have more grip than that, how can it slip so much when it's not even hot?

[Kancel]

Probably a bug:
Engine doesnt stall when the driving wheels are locked up, either cause by handbrake or foorbrake, in manual clutch mode.

[R3DMAN]

i have no idea where to put this, but i think the clutch wears out WAY too fast.. on the race cars i think its probably just right.. but the road cars wouldnt wear that much..

unless im just not doing something right.

[BrandonAGr]

Probably a bug:
Engine doesnt stall when the driving wheels are locked up, either cause by handbrake or foorbrake, in manual clutch mode.

Actually it does stall it, the revs drop to zero and if you shift to neutral and stop the engine will be off. In your example it just push starts itself back alive when you unlock the wheels and it still has forward speed

[JTbo]

FZ5 traction control.

When I purposely overheat the clutch, traction control limits clutch slip instead of wheel slip.

In real car (where ecu cuts engine in case of tire slip) there would be ABS sensors on wheels where from ecu reads wheel speed and cuts fuel/spark.

In FZ5 it seems to be such way that I find it bit unrealistic, speed difference of engine and clutch/transmission ?

Replay from testing attached, I switch traction control of and on to illustrate better that it is traction control issue.

[skstibi]

Allright. lol.

Has anyone else noticed that the shift points stayed at the same PRM so when you try to go by the shift light, you hit the rev limiter before it turns on?

Plus, I have always used 120 FOV and I used the digital speedometer and now after X30, I cannot read the numbers on my speedometer at all.

If Scawen codes having to hold the clutch in to start the car I will be pissed. I have owned cars with that damn switch and after the first hour of owning it I Fix it (unplug the switch and short out the two wires)

[Stigpt]

If you put in a gear with manual gear and clutch, then lift the clutch veeeeeeeery slooooooooowly, the car starts accelerating by itself (as in, it presses the accelerator pedal by itself).
Basically, the THROTTLE is still exibiting the same behaviour as in patch X - just the clutch isnt.

[TypeRCivic]

i have no idea where to put this, but i think the clutch wears out WAY too fast.. on the race cars i think its probably just right.. but the road cars wouldnt wear that much..

unless im just not doing something right.


I too agree to a point. I was testing out the new car and was slipping clutch to see how the new feature works and WoW.. I'd say it's good and bad to a fine limit. I'm aware of what happens when you heat a clutch up, but after so much heating it's done. I wasnt able to make it to pits to see weather pitting will fix it or not, but the clutch seems to heat rapidly on race cars, I'm still testing out everything so I'll post any bad/odd behavior:thumb: Thanks for the test patch DEVS.

Oh yeah, Black wood never looked this good, and the chickaine (Yes I know it's spelled wrong) route is awesome... I like the bumpy feel and the layout.:thumb:

[yoyoML]

That doesn't make sense. Why do you have to turn off the ignition before starting again? You just turn the key to "start" to run the starter motor. The ignition is on, why must you turn the ignition off and then back on before you start the engine?

Let's just conclude it as an "idiot proof" feature, that is not mechanically required. Same goes for requiring clutching to start even in neutral.

All cars I've driven, too, required only turning to "start" to run the starter motor. No clutch needed starting in neutral, either. But it does make sense to artificially require turning to "off" then to "start", and maybe plus pressing the clutch to a) avoid using starter when engine's running and b) avoid driving the car with the starter.

[herki]

If you put in a gear with manual gear and clutch, then lift the clutch veeeeeeeery slooooooooowly, the car starts accelerating by itself (as in, it presses the accelerator pedal by itself).
Basically, the THROTTLE is still exibiting the same behaviour as in patch X - just the clutch isnt.

That's normal for a car. You don't need to push the accelerator to get going.

[skstibi]

lol.. Umm. I would not have my clutch in my real car overheat while doing doughnuts. I just did it in LFS and my clutch went out :scratchch And no.. I was not clutch kicking the entire time.

[ajp71]

On cars like the lx6 when close to flat shifting(keeping gas down when pressing the clutch to shift then letting off the clutch) even on a fresh clutch the rpms will just slowly drop down to match what it should be at. It would seem like the clutch would have more grip than that, how can it slip so much when it's not even hot?

My guess is (haven't driven the road cars in X30 yet myself) that there's also some modeling of the limits of a clutch when it isn't overheating, IRL even a racing clutch has limits of the amount of torque it can transfer. The LX6 should be running a road clutch (harder, larger area less friction), there's a reason why racing clutches exist in the first place ;)

[spanks]

lol.. Umm. I would not have my clutch in my real car overheat while doing doughnuts. I just did it in LFS and my clutch went out :scratchch And no.. I was not clutch kicking the entire time.

if the tire's grip overcomes the clutch's ability to keep friction with the flywheel, then I suppose it would start slipping...although it is a bit rough for that to happen when on hard street tires...

or at least this is my best guess (it happened to me too)

[Mako.]

Setup prefix has changed, I am hoping the full patch will convert old setups to the new naming format.....

As for not discussing the clutch, I think it's worth discussing, as I am not sure it's that easy to overheat a clutch......

It's not this easy... if it was, you would not see a SINGLE burnout in the world at the drag races! Yes, clutches can fry, but the clutch in, let's say, the FBMW is supposed to be a high preformance "unsprung race ceramic clutch" or something simmliar, not the same one you will find in a pinto. Hell, a 1990 miata STOCK old non replaced since 1990 clutch is more durable= I've driven one, and it beggd for more abuse, the car even had LSD too. :D

[Joose]

if the tire's grip overcomes the clutch's ability to keep friction with the flywheel, then I suppose it would start slipping...although it is a bit rough for that to happen when on hard street tires...

or at least this is my best guess (it happened to me too)

I also spotted this when driving on the gravel parts of Blackwood RallyX. I stayed in 2nd gear (in the XRG with autoclutch) and was driving/sliding round the gravel bends at full throttle and the clutch was getting hotter until it went red after about 3 laps. On the tar sections it seemed fine (but then again I wasn't getting much wheelspin on the tar in the XRG), but the gravel parts seem to create clutch heat when the driven wheels are spinning and the clutch is not being used (i.e I didn't change gear in the middle of the corner etc)

Another potential bug: does the clutch simulation take the mass of the car into account? I noticed its as easy to overheat the clutch on the LX4 as it is to overheat it on one of the heavier road cars. I'm not sure if it should, but surely a lighter car should put less strain on the clutch given the same shifting behavior and driving style, and should therefore heat up less? I say this because I have a Lotus Seven (and I know quite a few guys who participate in the Lotus Challenge which is a race series for Lotus Sevens here in SA) and I have never heard any complaints of clutch overheating (nor had any myself in my Seven) even when flatshifting/not lifiting off much when shifting over long race distances.

[kaynd]

Is it normal that I feel the feedback less informative, a bit softer and lighter?
Also it is great that there are now realistic redlines to the road cars… but why it got changed also on the GTR and formyla cars?
F3000 with rev limiter @ 7500 rpm?
XF GTR @ 8000rpm??? Oh come on! There are even factory road cars that have higher rev limiters for the same engine layout.

Clutch scared me a bit after some rough gear changes but then I realized that it is not that difficult to keep it cool.
But anyway I find it a bit excessive that it can be completely destroyed in less than 5se sec of slipping.

[flymike91]

I haven't given a great deal of thought to the ignition system before. What is the difference between the starter motor and the ignition? Also, has anyone tested the new clutch with automatic trans?

[danowat]

I haven't given a great deal of thought to the ignition system before. What is the difference between the starter motor and the ignition? Also, has anyone tested the new clutch with automatic trans?

Starter motor turns the engine, ignition creates the spark

[mrodgers]

I haven't given a great deal of thought to the ignition system before. What is the difference between the starter motor and the ignition? Also, has anyone tested the new clutch with automatic trans?
Turn you key in your real road car to on, that is powering the ignition (as well as all other electrical). Turn the key further to start your car. That is giving power to your starter motor to start the car.

In race cars, they typically have a toggle switch to turn the ignition on, then a button or momentary switch to power the starter.

You can all make fun of me, I'm jumping on the single cruise server tonight to test out the clutch heating and stalling in the road cars driven in a road driving way. Oops, scratch that, hockey game tonight. I'll do it tomorrow night :)

[March Hare]

About starting the car after a stall.

After a stall the ignition is ON but the engine isn't turning. So you need to turn it with the starter motor. You have to turn the key BACK to turn the ignition OFF before you can use the starter motor.

Most normal cars have had this double start prevention for several decades. It's there to prevent you engaging the starter motor while the engine is running.

Try it with your own car. Stall the engine and try to start it without turning the key back. If your car is working properly it shouldn't start. Only after you have turned the key back a notch or two will it be able to start again. Another test is to try and start the engine while it's already running. I don't recommend doing this as it can damage your starter/starter pinion/the teeth on your flywheel.

[tristancliffe]

Turn you key in your real road car to on, that is powering the ignition (as well as all other electrical). Turn the key further to start your car. That is giving power to your starter motor to start the car.

In race cars, they typically have a toggle switch to turn the ignition on, then a button or momentary switch to power the starter.

You can all make fun of me, I'm jumping on the single cruise server tonight to test out the clutch heating and stalling in the road cars driven in a road driving way. Oops, scratch that, hockey game tonight. I'll do it tomorrow night :)

Not a bad idea actually - I might have to do the same. Will be first time I lower myself down to the level of cruising, but it's probably the best way to test the road clutches in road driving (the temptation to floor it is too much on an empty, unregulated track).

But I might not. We'll see.

[mrodgers]

Not a bad idea actually - I might have to do the same. Will be first time I lower myself down to the level of cruising, but it's probably the best way to test the road clutches in road driving (the temptation to floor it is too much on an empty, unregulated track).

But I might not. We'll see.
:D Someone be there and get a replay of Tristan on a cruise server! :razz:

I've been on the CLC server all last weekend practicing using a clutch (well, practicing my heel-toe) in a non-racing environment. Actually, I've done a fair share of messing about on the CLC server when it first came out due to the lack of any racing (ignoring AS2 and AS3) last year.

I've never had a vehicle that you had to turn the key off, then on again to restart. You have to turn the key BACK to turn the ignition OFF before you can use the starter motor......
I've had a manual for 19 years (first car in the first year of driving was automatic, and car now is automatic :(). If you ever need to restart the car while moving, the last thing you want to do is to turn the key off, thus having the steering column lock on you while moving down the road. I think it is the same with automatics if you put it into neutral.

If for any reason your car stalls (they can stall from more than just poor starting out with clutch), then you just press the clutch and restart it.

[Californian]

I don't really understand they way of thinking with that starting/ignition thing here.

If you turn the key in your car it does run starting motor and ignition at the same time and then the key pulls itself back a little when you let your hold of it and the starting engine stops turning.

Say if Im wrong but in LFS's BF1 you just press on button and that turns on the starting motor and ignition and after the motor is running the starting motor isn't running. When your car stalls your ignition might be on but when you press the ignition button nothing happens as you have to press the button 2 times, 1st to turn something off and 2nd time to start the car. I don't really see why you have to turn something off.

You should just be able to press the ignition button once just to run the starter motor because it's already off so you don't have to manually turn it off as it does that automatically = and you're off.'

I might not understand something here but that's how my logic goes :schwitz:

[tristancliffe]

:D Someone be there and get a replay of Tristan on a cruise server! :razz:Gulp!

I've had a manual for 19 years (first car in the first year of driving was automatic, and car now is automatic :(). If you ever need to restart the car while moving, the last thing you want to do is to turn the key off, thus having the steering column lock on you while moving down the road. I think it is the same with automatics if you put it into neutral.

If for any reason your car stalls (they can stall from more than just poor starting out with clutch), then you just press the clutch and restart it.Turning the ignition off won't activate the steering lock. That only happens if you take the key out of the lock altogether. Some (many) cars do require and off before a start.

If you turn the key in your car it does run starting motor and ignition at the same time and then the key pulls itself back a little when you let your hold of it and the starting engine stops turning.Your key will have (at least) three positions. Off, On and Start. On is ignition. Start is starter motor. They are separate. When you start you turn the motor, and the key jumps back to On on it's own. Simple.
Say if Im wrong but in LFS's BF1 you just press on button and that turns on the starting motor and ignition and after the motor is running the starting motor isn't running.Poor example, as the BF1 does not have a starter motor. But for all the other cars, that is indeed correct.
When your car stalls your ignition might be on but when you press the ignition button nothing happens as you have to press the button 2 times, 1st to turn something off and 2nd time to start the car. I don't really see why you have to turn something off.Because, in road cars, most/some require a quick off then back on. It's not that rare. And LFS wants it that way.

The race cars should, realistically speaking, have a separate starter button to the ignition toggle. And a Master Switch. And an extinguisher handle/button. And a fuel pump switch. And a rain light switch. And a datalogger/video power/log/record button(s). Ooops, got carried away...

You should just be able to press the ignition button once just to run the starter motor because it's already off so you don't have to manually turn it off as it does that automatically = and you're off.'

I might not understand something here but that's how my logic goes :schwitz:[/quote]

[Californian]

Your key will have (at least) three positions. Off, On and Start. On is ignition. Start is starter motor. They are separate. When you start you turn the motor, and the key jumps back to On on it's own. Simple.


So you didn't actually say anything that we didn't know before did ya? :)

[ajp71]

It's not this easy... if it was, you would not see a SINGLE burnout in the world at the drag races! Yes, clutches can fry, but the clutch in, let's say, the FBMW is supposed to be a high preformance "unsprung race ceramic clutch" or something simmliar, not the same one you will find in a pinto. Hell, a 1990 miata STOCK old non replaced since 1990 clutch is more durable= I've driven one, and it beggd for more abuse, the car even had LSD too. :D

A racing clutch will be far less durable than a road clutch, it has a much smaller plate and is made of a much softer material, think of it like using softer tires that don't last as long.


I've had a manual for 19 years (first car in the first year of driving was automatic, and car now is automatic :(). If you ever need to restart the car while moving, the last thing you want to do is to turn the key off, thus having the steering column lock on you while moving down the road. I think it is the same with automatics if you put it into neutral.

If you stall whilst moving, only possible if you've chosen far too high a gear or somethings wrong with your car simply select an appropriate gear for the speed your traveling and release the clutch to bump start the engine.

[Stigpt]

That's normal for a car. You don't need to push the accelerator to get going.


No its not. I dunno what kind of car you have, but when I get it going without touching the accelerator (which I regularly do), my ACCELERATOR PEDAL does NOT strat depressing by itself...

Go try to start a car by lifting off the clutch slowly, do NOT touch the accelerator, and the car will start moving (as expected) BUT the green bar starts going up, trying to prevent a stall (as it shoudlnt be)

[JTbo]

No its not. I dunno what kind of car you have, but when I get it going without touching the accelerator (which I regularly do), my ACCELERATOR PEDAL does NOT strat depressing by itself...

Go try to start a car by lifting off the clutch slowly, do NOT touch the accelerator, and the car will start moving (as expected) BUT the green bar starts going up, trying to prevent a stall (as it shoudlnt be)

Some FWD shopping carts actually have loonie protection and they add more throttle in case those notice idle rpm drop, so they actively try to keep idle at set rpm. Not of course older better men's cars, there you are in control, not some loonie aid :D

So I don't think that is really bug in physics, just a ecu feature?

[AndroidXP]

Duh, maybe because the green bar doesn't show pedal position but how open the throttle at the engine is? If the ECU adds throttle to prevent stalling, of course your pedal doesn't move, but neither does the pedal in LFS. It just shows that the throttle is opening up, not that you push the pedal.

[Bean0]

Duh, maybe because the green bar doesn't show pedal position but how open the throttle at the engine is? If the ECU adds throttle to prevent stalling, of course your pedal doesn't move, but neither does the pedal in LFS. It just shows that the throttle is opening up, not that you push the pedal.

They're called the pedal bars in the menu aren't they ?
I thought they were mostly used to see if your logitech pedals had failed or not.

Can't check as I am at work.

[matt_tighe]

I think many people have discussed this elsewhere but, I thought I would raise a bug against the auto-clutch transmission. It's definately much better than before but...

The auto-clutch is not used enough on downshifts. This causes the transmission to lock up upsetting the car (felt more on the FOX that the FBMW which is ok).
It does not feel natural to blip the throttle when using paddle and having no clutch pedal but I appreciate that the sim is technically accurate.

I propose that for auto-clutch drivers, it operates more on the downshift to remove some of the transmission lock up.
That way "real" drivers will have a small advantage from being able to match revs, but "paddle" drivers can still get round the track at good speed.

[AndroidXP]

They're called the pedal bars in the menu aren't they ?That's true, but as far back as I can remember, they were always showing the actual applied engine throttle and not the pedal input. One example are the idle RPM which are completely "held" by the green throttle bar, another one are the speed limiters, which work by reducing the throttle input so you don't pass the limit, so even though your pedal is depressed fully, the green bar will show the limited throttle. Same goes for the TC systems.

[Hansiii]

The traction control seems to kick in when the clutch is fried, this seems unrealistic since it measures wheel spin. I haven't tried slipping the clutch on a real car, but I thought it only started to limit throttle when wheel-speed was higher than the real speed.

And the clutch seems to overheat and wear out way too fast on a lot of the cars, the street cars should be able to handle tons of abuse before you can see any sign of clutch overheating/excessive wear.

[deather]

And the clutch seems to overheat and wear out way too fast on a lot of the cars, the street cars should be able to handle tons of abuse before you can see any sign of clutch overheating/excessive wear.

+1.

[robertchapple123]

+1.

+2.

[sdrjfd1]

I'm not an enginer...:shrug:
but i saw in TV, that the beginers got a little push on start to not destroy the clutch.

I got used to the clutch system, its great. I got just 2 pixel yellow on the bar... Oh yeah, i use autoclutch ...:shy:

Edit: Oh... street cars... sorry.

[IgorBK]

A bug discovered in the horn, I thought that was the button of my G25, but looking at the options realized that indeed is a BUG same.

I do not know exactly what the cause of the problem, but it only occurs when the car this off, squeeze the button for the horn (both forms if the keyboard or the G25), and no sound comes from, if the car is on the bug disappears completely, recorded a video showing.

I also tested the FXO with another kind of horn on another track and the same thing happened, I tested in the X10 and this did not occur.

A bug without virtually nothing of importance, but is a bug anyway.

The video:
http://rapidshare.com/files/75856501/LFS_-_BUG_Horn.wmv.html

Sorry my bad english, I use the google translator... :D

[dougie-lampkin]

I have to agree that road clutches wear out WAY too fast in Patch X30...after a 2 lap race in XRT at BL1 with required pit stop, half the AI cars (and me :D) had fryed clutches...XRT clutch is just impossible; after taking off twice, its in the red...

[_speedy_]

i don't know if any of u noticed that (i gues u would have noticed that so is it just me??), but every next lap the car becomes slower and slower, i'm talking about the speed... first lap ok, second lap loosing ca 5km\h at the straight, then the next lap worser and worser and worser... don't get it? tried on fox and the new formula bmw... what could it be? the clutch indicator (if i get it right in f9 and f10 menus the box with letter ct?) would only get a slight movement.. only a bit of red shows up... what could it be?

Btw, i tried to accelerate with my clutch on for a minute... but... the ct didn't go up for a half nor one forth way... what about that? :)

[EeekiE]

Alot of cars I've driven have an auxillary air valve governed by the ECU to maintain a steady idle. It also means that if you pull of just using the clutch as a side effect it will allow more air into the engine to counteract the dip in revs.

[Andrei221]

and the barriers are still buggy

[EeekiE]

It's certainly worth noting that the clutch pedal (I've tested it on my DFP using the brake axis as a clutch) has no free movement whatsoever, and full clutch pedal depression is right on the biting point of the clutch. This means that anything but full pedal depression is resulting in the clutch being partially engaged, and so it feels somewhat different to real driving. This, EeekiE, might be where you're finding difficulty adapting to the clutch control needed, in that there's no free play in the clutch whatsoever.

I've changed the axis properties of the controller so give such dead zones but it's not the issue. You apply the smallest crack of throttle to hold revs steady at around 3000rpm, and the slightest hint of any clutch connection causes them to divebomb, even in the road cars.

I'm more than used to a sensitive or harsh clutch. To go from nothing, to just biting in my own, you don't move your foot, you imagine you're moving your foot and then it engages, it's THAT sensitive. It's almost an idiometer movement, but at the moment the clutch starts to bite, the engine doesn't just divebomb. So I would say it's more a problem with engine modelling than clutch modelling. It's just expressed when using the clutch.
It feels as if the engines have no inertia or flywheel whatsoever, even in the road cars, yet if you blip the throttle and wait for the revs to fall it seems to take an eternity almost. Very strange!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyTG6gYudz8 - Very light, revs fall quickly when I lift off, yet no divebombing when clutch is slipping. I can even pull off without any throttle, on a ceramic 3 paddle clutch.

[zipper (cze)]

I was driving around new SO with XFR and... If you go into box on neutral and turn on pit limiter, the car will stall.

And second bug, if you have puncture and goes into box, you get new tyre, but unfortunately it has no air inside :)

btw if you have some damage, it won't get repaired. Is that intentionally?

[EeekiE]

Anyone else notice how the engine turns off if you leave it idling too?

[dougie-lampkin]

btw if you have some damage, it won't get repaired. Is that intentionally?

Not too sure, but I believe its a server option?

[canovi88]

sorry for my bad english..
Sir Scawen,The tyres burn SO FAST!!!!!! in 1 lap i need change my tires...(i do drift,not race)..please,do news tires for drifting,road normals but it dont do so much smoke because in lfs X10 i can do 3 laps in SO city long, and in X30 only 1 :(:(:(:( :shy:

[dougie-lampkin]

sorry for my bad english..
Sir Scawen,The tyres burn SO FAST!!!!!! in 1 lap i need change my tires...(i do drift,not race)..please,do news tires for drifting,road normals but it dont do so much smoke because in lfs X10 i can do 3 laps in SO city long, and in X30 only 1 :(:(:(:( :shy:

Actually, maybe a set of "drift" tyres wouldn't be a bad idea? They're available IRL (obviously not called drift tyres, I forget the name)

The new tyres are far more realistic, try drifting around a city with a XRT IRL and see how far you get :tilt:

[Jakg]

D1 use normal high-performance road tyres and just burn them out quick.

"Drift Tyres" has been discussed before, and written off as being stupid.

[dougie-lampkin]

D1 use normal high-performance road tyres and just burn them out quick.

"Drift Tyres" has been discussed before, and written off as being stupid.

Ah, thought they might be :nod:

[kamkorPL]

Jakg: Not sure what you mean by normal high-perfomance tires, but if semi-slicks like Toyo R888 then yeah :)

But which those are the ones in lfs - normals, supers, or neither?

About tires blowing out - in real life usually drift runs aren't as long as they are in lfs. Often drifter does few laps around short section then goes back to "line/queue". In the meantime while waiting the temperature goes down, therfore so does the pressure in tires and the tires can last another few runs - and so on. Until they're dead. Ofcourse in tsuiso battles with many reruns things happen earlier. Even during practice some tires last weirdly short, and some are like lasting "forever"(but not as long as lfs x10 normals).

Hovewer this is how it is in european events like in IDC, KOE etc, I've never saw D1 live.

Suming this up, I think normal tires actually blow out after a real amount of time. They probably could last longer, or not, but it's real right now. Hovewer, the tires we had before - lasted way too long.

I also agree with some opinions about rev limiter. It indeed seems to be working wrong. Maybe it's easy to do such rev limiter in real life? I don't know. Anyone with mechanical knowledge? Tristan help out here maybe please.

[mrminor28]

they are using semi slicks "D1GP" :) but lfs xrt fz5 havnt enough power :) fz5 maybi but engine in rear

[dougie-lampkin]

I also agree with some opinions about rev limiter. It indeed seems to be working wrong. Maybe it's easy to do such rev limiter in real life? I don't know. Anyone with mechanical knowledge? Tristan help out here maybe please.

I don't know much about the mechanical aspect of the revlimiter, but it certainly doesn't feel or sound right...correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't it sound more like the Pit Limiter?

[herki]

No its not. I dunno what kind of car you have, but when I get it going without touching the accelerator (which I regularly do), my ACCELERATOR PEDAL does NOT strat depressing by itself...

Go try to start a car by lifting off the clutch slowly, do NOT touch the accelerator, and the car will start moving (as expected) BUT the green bar starts going up, trying to prevent a stall (as it shoudlnt be)

Even though I seem to have misunderstood you, I can inform you it's not uncommon that the air/fuel mixture changes with varying load conditions :)

[mrminor28]

after this patch tyres burning very fast that +1 :) 3,5 lap in fe gold rev w fz5 and pop :! :thumb:

[zipper (cze)]

If your clutch is too hot (about 2/3-3/4 of CT bar), you are not able to go out from pit stop, because LFS is pressing a brake a little.

[Hallen]

On the clutch situation.

My thinking is that the pressure plate springs are not strong enough. The clutch should engage more strongly against the flywheel. The clutch acts like it is already worn down to the nubs.

If I shift the XRG like I do my real car, the Engine RPMs stay high, and then slowly work down to the lower level and this is after I have let the clutch all the way out. This does not happen on my real car even at the track when I am shifting rapidly. Once I have the clutch all the way out, the engine RPMs get drug down quickly to the level the transmission is at. There is minimal clutch slipping going on.

I haven't found a way to shift the XRG without burning up the clutch in a short time. I am using a clutch pedal with auto clutch off.

[atledreier]

I agree, Hallen. Feels like a really really worn clutch to me.

[JTbo]

Well, I guess it is bit of linear still too.

But is it bug or feature that needs improvement?

[EeekiE]

I don't get how people are melting clutches? I can rag the arse of a H-box on a G25 and get nothing more than 2 pixels of heat, or is that what people mean? I tried flat-shifting and stopped toe-heeling and then it soon shot up, but that's how it should be I think. It's another thing to learn.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I agree Eric. And JTBo I think you're on the right track about the linearity, at least it feels that way.

Fixing that might resolve the clutch wear (too rapid) problem on the road cars, but in a proper way. I say this because slipping a clutch too much SHOULD damage it, but possibly the current clutch is too easy to slip, maybe because of what Eric said?

A friend and I almost burned his clutch right up in about 10 seconds of him failing to do a brake stand properly - to the point it had to be replaced since it wouldn't hold that well under WOT. Smoke and everything; he thought it was tire smoke - it was not!

So, you should be able to burn a clutch pretty easily if you try, but it shouldn't happen quite as easily when not purposefully abusing it. This is why I think Eric / JTBo are on the right track with this; it's not a longevity issue it's a pressure/friction issue possibly.

edit: I'm also a bit stumped by people over heating them, since I can shift pretty aggressively in the GTT (haven't had a lot of time to test other cars) without getting too much heat into the clutch. By aggressive I mean engaging the throttle right before letting the clutch out, giving a bit of a surge but not flatshifting. hmm, the more I think about it I only think the road car clutch heating might by very slightly too much, but it's hard to say how much in quantifiable terms.

[Stigpt]

heres the accelerator bug in video goodness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhntrKVvU6A

[AndroidXP]

Not a bug. Merely an effect of the ECU (or a mechanic effect within the engine) opening the throttle to try and keep up idle RPM. The same thing happens in LFS X10, but there the auto-clutch kicks in that prevents stalling, so all you see is the clutch and throttle bar jumping up and down rapidly.

[Mako.]

That's what I was wondering when I posted about it at the beginning of this thread.

Some higher end cars, like mercedes, do that fo \r security purpose I think, but most cars, like the 240sx, RX-7, Rustang, s2000, Trucks, etc dont do that. It's a more common feature now, but most cars dont, or at least, dont HAVE to have you do that.

[JTbo]

And this is how clutch burns IRL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMJFLbTeQ3U), for reference.

But I really think this is not correct place for that as it is not a bug, but more like feature that would perhaps need refining.

[Mako.]

If you put in a gear with manual gear and clutch, then lift the clutch veeeeeeeery slooooooooowly, the car starts accelerating by itself (as in, it presses the accelerator pedal by itself).
Basically, the THROTTLE is still exibiting the same behaviour as in patch X - just the clutch isnt.

umm, it's supposed to do that... real cars, if you are really percise with the clutch, you can take off withought pressing the gas AT ALL!

Unless you mean that the bar graphs show the throttle axis move when you are not pressing the gas pedal....

[Hallen]

I don't get how people are melting clutches? I can rag the arse of a H-box on a G25 and get nothing more than 2 pixels of heat, or is that what people mean? I tried flat-shifting and stopped toe-heeling and then it soon shot up, but that's how it should be I think. It's another thing to learn.

I know how to shift. I know how to heal toe. It is not a problem for me. I was using proper technique while testing this, trust me.

It could be something to do with the clutch pedal travel that I have compared to a G25. I use ECCI pedals and they are quite a bit bigger, more stout and have longer pedal throws.

Edit: And I think it is a bug, not a feature enhancement. It (in my opinion) is not working as expected. It is a good feature overall, it just has a few glitches to work out.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Not a bug. Merely an effect of the ECU (or a mechanic effect within the engine) opening the throttle to try and keep up idle RPM. The same thing happens in LFS X10, but there the auto-clutch kicks in that prevents stalling, so all you see is the clutch and throttle bar jumping up and down rapidly.

I agree, BUT, the fact that it will go almost WOT is pretty strange... If real cars worked like that you wouldn't need the loud pedal to start out! I can see some small amount of throttle opening, but it's too excessive as it is right now IMO.

While we're talking about physics, the engine takes WAY to long to shut off after you kill the ignition. It's like there's no compression, it's just a rotating / reciprocating mass slowly coming to a stop and it's odd.

[Mako.]

Let's just conclude it as an "idiot proof" feature, that is not mechanically required. Same goes for requiring clutching to start even in neutral.

All cars I've driven, too, required only turning to "start" to run the starter motor. No clutch needed starting in neutral, either. But it does make sense to artificially require turning to "off" then to "start", and maybe plus pressing the clutch to a) avoid using starter when engine's running and b) avoid driving the car with the starter.

The thing about having to press in the clutch to start the car. How many of you drive? IN cold climate, a lot of times, if you leave the handbrake on overhight, it will stick... which is a bitch... so A lot of people, including me, put their car in gear instead of yanking the parking brake. Then, as you get in late for work, sometimes the fact that you left your car in gear is the LAST thing on your mind, so you start your engine, and DOH! Ah, of yeah thank god for that feature, just saved my ass! So you clutch in, start the car, and pull away, no bent bumpers and higher insurance costs. I actually like this feature in real cars quite a lot. It's simple, and does a lot more than ABS will ever do for me.

[EeekiE]

I know how to shift. I know how to heal toe. It is not a problem for me. I was using proper technique while testing this, trust me.

It could be something to do with the clutch pedal travel that I have compared to a G25. I use ECCI pedals and they are quite a bit bigger, more stout and have longer pedal throws.

Edit: And I think it is a bug, not a feature enhancement. It (in my opinion) is not working as expected. It is a good feature overall, it just has a few glitches to work out.

It could very well be that. When I said I couldn't understand why, I wasn't advocating rubbish drivers, I was saying I couldn't understand why as on my G25 pedals it seems to work fine, even allowing a fair few cock-ups. Maybe Scawen uses G25 pedals and optimised it for them?

[Cue-Ball]

umm, it's supposed to do that... real cars, if you are really percise with the clutch, you can take off withought pressing the gas AT ALL!That depends quite a bit on the car's weight, power, and gearing. Taking off with no throttle in my wife's car would be tricky indeed because it's overly heavy and underpowered.

Unless you mean that the bar graphs show the throttle axis move when you are not pressing the gas pedal....That seems to be the case here.

[AndroidXP]

I know how to shift. I know how to heal toe. It is not a problem for me. I was using proper technique while testing this, trust me.Ok, I saw this for the third time now, so I'm sure it's not a typo: it's spelt heel toe. :D
Heal toe is only needed when you stub it ;)

[Mako.]

About starting the car after a stall.

After a stall the ignition is ON but the engine isn't turning. So you need to turn it with the starter motor. You have to turn the key BACK to turn the ignition OFF before you can use the starter motor.

Most normal cars have had this double start prevention for several decades. It's there to prevent you engaging the starter motor while the engine is running.

Try it with your own car. Stall the engine and try to start it without turning the key back. If your car is working properly it shouldn't start. Only after you have turned the key back a notch or two will it be able to start again. Another test is to try and start the engine while it's already running. I don't recommend doing this as it can damage your starter/starter pinion/the teeth on your flywheel.

Well, me mom's 2003 hundai you CAN engage the starter motor when the engine is running. Maybe most European higher end cars, like audi, etc have this, not japanese or american.

[evilgeek]

That depends quite a bit on the car's weight, power, and gearing. Taking off with no throttle in my wife's car would be tricky indeed because it's overly heavy and underpowered.

That seems to be the case here.

it's called an idle control valve, and it's operated by the ecu. it isn't intended as a "driver aid", but it is meant to keep the engine idle steady, and when the revs dip below the normal idle point for whatever reason (environmental conditions usually), it will make an attempt to keep the revs up by opening the throttle a little.

[dougie-lampkin]

here's a good example of clutch burning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ2qsiwL0Bs :D

We need clutch smoke!

[JTbo]

it's called an idle control valve, and it's operated by the ecu. it isn't intended as a "driver aid", but it is meant to keep the engine idle steady, and when the revs dip below the normal idle point for whatever reason (environmental conditions usually), it will make an attempt to keep the revs up by opening the throttle a little.

Some cars don't have it, electric motor control throttle butterfly and ecu controls electric motor based on program, drivers just uses throttle pedal to make a wish.

This is type LFS cars seem to have. Check FZ5 traction control, same thing happens, you keep it floored and green bar decreases, not a bug, imo.

Still I fail to see how we are helping Scawen to pinpoint bugs here?

[Californian]

So the clutch isn't working properly, ECU works too well and flywheel is made from plastic? :schwitz:

[Hansiii]

Regarding the clutch, "flat shifting" used to cause the tires to spin when shifting to second gear in the LX6, now the clutch slips instead, that might be realistic, but most cars I have ever driven have no problem making the wheels spin a bit when "flat shifting".

[Mako.]

That depends quite a bit on the car's weight, power, and gearing. Taking off with no throttle in my wife's car would be tricky indeed because it's overly heavy and underpowered.

That seems to be the case here.

OH... ok... lol. The thing is, this one guy was bragging about how he could do it, so I went out to my dad's F150 truck and gave it a try... and it worked!

It has a 4.2 liter V-6.. no idea on weight, but it's a full size truck.

[ajp71]

No its not. I dunno what kind of car you have, but when I get it going without touching the accelerator (which I regularly do), my ACCELERATOR PEDAL does NOT strat depressing by itself...

The little motors on your throttle butterfly controlled by the ECU will maintain idle regardless of what you want though, and naturally should be fully open before an engine stalls. This is standard on all cars with modern fuel injection systems (including most race cars).


The auto-clutch is not used enough on downshifts. This causes the transmission to lock up upsetting the car (felt more on the FOX that the FBMW which is ok).
It does not feel natural to blip the throttle when using paddle and having no clutch pedal but I appreciate that the sim is technically accurate.

The clutch isn't used at all on down shifts in a sequentially shifted car you have to put a manual throttle blip on if you want to keep the rear end from locking up.

Actually, maybe a set of "drift" tyres wouldn't be a bad idea? They're available IRL (obviously not called drift tyres, I forget the name)


Real drifters use semi-slick tires because they look cool and make lots of smoke, really naff old tires would go sideways with less power, last far longer and be cheaper but who said the drifters got all the brains ;)

I don't get how people are melting clutches? I can rag the arse of a H-box on a G25 and get nothing more than 2 pixels of heat, or is that what people mean? I tried flat-shifting and stopped toe-heeling and then it soon shot up, but that's how it should be I think. It's another thing to learn.

Exactly you've got to be trying (not just driving badly) to really have any issues.

And this is how clutch burns IRL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMJFLbTeQ3U), for reference.

But I really think this is not correct place for that as it is not a bug, but more like feature that would perhaps need refining.

Anybody else notice a high proportion of Americans burning clutches given the low proportion of US cars fitted with one? Equally how retarded have you got to be to sit revving your engine for 30 seconds not realising the smoke is coming from your transmission tunnel rather than tires :doh:

[STenyaK]

Is it impossible to turn off autoclutch with keyboard? If it is, then i'd call that a bug.

[Cue-Ball]

Trucks are generally geared lower than passenger cars. And much lower than race cars, which often need higher gearing to hit top speed. Many race cars are notoriously difficult to drive away from a standstill because they have peaky engines, grabby clutches, and relatively high gearing. Just look at Richard Hammond trying to drive an F1 car. He stalled it 8 times straight. :)

[ajp71]

OH... ok... lol. The thing is, this one guy was bragging about how he could do it, so I went out to my dad's F150 truck and gave it a try... and it worked!

It has a 4.2 liter V-6.. no idea on weight, but it's a full size truck.

Slip the clutch slowly enough and you should be able to do it in any car, I suppose with very careful control one could do it with a racing clutch and a peaky race engine, you'd likely burn the clutch out trying though and wouldn't be able to be sensitive enough. In a normal road car it's not hard, you can easily feel the bite point of a clutch although it's mechanically far better to start off with more revs and slip the clutch less.

[ajp71]

Trucks are generally geared lower than passenger cars. And much lower than race cars, which often need higher gearing to hit top speed. Many race cars are notoriously difficult to drive away from a standstill because they have peaky engines, grabby clutches, and relatively high gearing. Just look at Richard Hammond trying to drive an F1 car. He stalled it 8 times straight. :)

An F1 car is completely different to anything else though because apart from a racing clutch you've hardly got the torque to pull away at revs most engines would have gone bang trying to reach, then you've got to take into account you're trying to do that with a tiny paddle movement and you can soon understand how much short of a racing start would be virtually impossible without a lot of practice.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Anybody else notice a high proportion of Americans burning clutches given the low proportion of US cars fitted with one? Equally how retarded have you got to be to sit revving your engine for 30 seconds not realising the smoke is coming from your transmission tunnel rather than tires :doh:

Roughly the same "retardation level" as misreading "10" as "30", and failing to think what % of that 10 seconds had passed before any smoke arrived. ;)

When trying to be a smartass, don't forget the smart part, because that just leaves you looking like the rest of the word. I would also bet both balls (not just the left one) that Eric would destroy you on any track, virtual or otherwise.

[ajp71]

Roughly the same "retardation level" as misreading "10" as "30", and failing to think what % of that 10 seconds had passed before any smoke arrived. ;)

When trying to be a smartass, don't forget the smart part, otherwise you look like an imbecile.

Yeah these tires take a while to get going but then you get a proper ceramic burning smell and lots of smoke in the cockpit and then if you're lucky some flames :doh:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Exactly. Tire smoke isn't generated immediately, neither is clutch smoke. As soon as some smoke was even noticed, a quick glance at the speedo indicates the bad news. No smoke inside, just noticed it coming up by the side windows.

[Cue-Ball]

An F1 car is completely different to anything else though because apart from a racing clutch you've hardly got the torque to pull away at revs most engines would have gone bang trying to reach, then you've got to take into account you're trying to do that with a tiny paddle movement and you can soon understand how much short of a racing start would be virtually impossible without a lot of practice.Yes, of course. It was just to illustrate a point. I remember one of the races that I watched not long ago (LeMans series, I think) and the drivers were complaining about a rule that they could not spin their tires coming out of the pits. Everyone was up in arms about it because even though they have very powerful cars, the clutches are so grabby that it's difficult to take off without either stalling or spinning the tires. To get away without doing either, they risked burning up the clutch and being out of the race.

I would love to see LFS model this behavior (but we'd need fixed longitudinal grip or the change would be worthless).

[Storm_Cloud]

Anybody else notice a high proportion of Americans burning clutches given the low proportion of US cars fitted with one? Equally how retarded have you got to be to sit revving your engine for 30 seconds not realising the smoke is coming from your transmission tunnel rather than tires :doh:

What proportion of US cars do not have a clutch? Are you referring to automatics? I can't think of a car that doesn't have one.

My old Nissan Sunny automatic had TWO clutches - one for forwards and one for reverse.

[Mako.]

lol, what's funny is that an automatic still has clutches, just not the same way a "standard" car does. Read up on how an auto works dude, it's quite interesting actually!

[ajp71]

Not all torque converters have to have a clutch inside them, and the clutch has a completely different role in an automatic, there's no manual control of it, it's not used for pulling away and removing it wouldn't prevent a car from driving conventionally. You understood my point but just had to be anal ;)

[Not Sure]

how about keeping automatic transmissions off the racetracks and off this thread..

[DeadWolfBones]

BUG (I think): Reverse gear doesn't seem to affect the clutch heat at all. When it's slipping in forward gear you can still go flat out in reverse without any adverse affects & the heat doesn't increase.

This is using paddles & auto clutch (can't afford a G25 yet :[ :[).

[EeekiE]

To all the people that think the engines are too forgiving with stalling, please can you upload some videos of some quick getaways from 2500-3000rpm in any of the slow road cars, as you would in your own road car.
To make any kind of brisk getaway in LFS I've always just pulled off as I would my on real car, but instead- having the revs near 6000-7000rpm. You can hear this too when you're online in the pits. It's the "natural" thing to do in with LFS clutch and engine modelling. It's not really a problem, until probably now with clutch heat modelling.

I can pull away in for all intents and purposes a real race-hatch quite briskly using only 2500rpm or so.

I cannot pull away in an LFS demo road car, using a healthy 3000rpm, without either riding the clutch and awkwardly and massively compensating with the throttle to keep the revs steady, or the engine completely bogging down and then accellerating from 500rpm.

Although I'm now wondering whether "Race S" has a much longer ratio 1st gear than a would-be road car has.... perhaps this is what it is.

[ajp71]

^^ You can pull away with ease in the FBM, a racing engine and clutch, that's hardly realistic is it? My guess is you've not got your pedals set up properly.

[Mako.]

Not all torque converters have to have a clutch inside them, and the clutch has a completely different role in an automatic, there's no manual control of it, it's not used for pulling away and removing it wouldn't prevent a car from driving conventionally. You understood my point but just had to be anal ;)

First of all, yeah, exaclty, you are correct!

no no no no no no no no... :D

All I was trying to say there was that an auto has "clutches" but they are not the same thing as a clutch in a manual car. They work different.

Look:lol, what's funny is that an automatic still has clutches, just not the same way a "standard" car does. Read up on how an auto works dude, it's quite interesting actually!

What proportion of US cars do not have a clutch? Are you referring to automatics? I can't think of a car that doesn't have one.

Me: what's funny is that an automatic still has clutches, just not the same way a "standard" car does. Read up on how an auto works dude, it's quite interesting actually! (this is not meant to be "go study and come back" but rather, "Hey I just read this awesome book, you should check it out!"

Are we all clear now? :D

[Mako.]

Not all torque converters have to have a clutch inside them, and the clutch has a completely different role in an automatic, there's no manual control of it, it's not used for pulling away and removing it wouldn't prevent a car from driving conventionally. You understood my point but just had to be anal ;)

First of all, yeah, exaclty, you are correct!

no no no no no no no no... :D

All I was trying to say there was that an auto has "clutches" but they are not the same thing as a clutch in a manual car. They work different.

Look:lol, what's funny is that an automatic still has clutches, just not the same way a "standard" car does. Read up on how an auto works dude, it's quite interesting actually!

What proportion of US cars do not have a clutch? Are you referring to automatics? I can't think of a car that doesn't have one.

Me: what's funny is that an automatic still has clutches, just not the same way a "standard" car does. Read up on how an auto works dude, it's quite interesting actually! (this is not meant to be "go study and come back" but rather, "Hey I just read this awesome book, you should check it out!"

Are we all clear now? :D

PS: I wasn't talking about the torque converter, but rather the clutches that are in a pack deep in the transmission body where the planetary gear sets and all the other junk is..

[yueyue]

Scawen spined in his first Formula bmw test,but the formula car in the game maybe a little too steable,F1 can "drift" like the old patch.

if the formula car could spin like F1C, LFS would be better. :thumb:

[DeadWolfBones]

Oh, believe me, it can spin. :P

[legoflamb]

After the engine stalls, why do I have to press the ignition twice for the engine to start again? I tried it many times so far, and every time I had to press it twice to start.

Also, when the car is in neutral, you still need to press the clutch to start the engine. Right now you can start it without the clutch.

I agree, the ignition and starter key should be seperate,

but it is kinda pontless since you shouldnt be turning off your car in a race.

[ghost racer]

I noticed on manual with no shift help you cant pull it out of gear anymore without using the clutch. You can easily do this in real life, it's how I pull my car out of gear actually. But it seems to hang up since this new patch.

[danowat]

I noticed on manual with no shift help you cant pull it out of gear anymore without using the clutch. You can easily do this in real life, it's how I pull my car out of gear actually. But it seems to hang up since this new patch.

Depends, if the transmission is under load, you wouldnt be able to pull it out without the clutch.

[ghost racer]

Depends, if the transmission is under load, you wouldnt be able to pull it out without the clutch.

Yes, I'm not de-accelerating or have any load on it. I'm keeping the momentum correct.. It just wont push out right. I dont use the clutch to pull out of gear in my car at all in real life. It just doesn't seem to work right on LFS since the X30 patch.

Plus it's werid how you need the full clutch to change gears (up and downshift). I could up shift fine IRL with about half clutch just fine into the next gear (with pushing much clutch. Makes down-shifting with a clutch funny on sequential.

I do like how it's not as much "flat" shifting anymore..

[FPV_125]

hi, im not sure if this is the right section, but i was in ltc and 1 of the members of my team (MCR_Datz It) left the pits and we could not see his car at all, and he was not able to start it

[herki]

hi, im not sure if this is the right section, but i was in ltc and 1 of the members of my team (MCR_Datz It) left the pits and we could not see his car at all, and he was not able to start it

not sure if it's a physics issue, but a replay would help a lot in your case

[EeekiE]

^^ You can pull away with ease in the FBM, a racing engine and clutch, that's hardly realistic is it? My guess is you've not got your pedals set up properly.

I cannot tell what revs the engine is doing with the dashboard, and I wouldn't know how such a car pulls away anyway. My point is the road cars are nothing like the road cars, and indeed nothing like a real race hatch.

[Linsen]

Plus it's werid how you need the full clutch to change gears (up and downshift). I could up shift fine IRL with about half clutch just fine into the next gear (with pushing much clutch. Makes down-shifting with a clutch funny on sequential.
Not quite sure, but I think this has to do with where the biting point of the clutch is. Afaik, you can calibrate your clutch in LFS to have the biting point much earlier than with the default calibration where you obviously have to depress the clutch pedal fully. I don't have a clutch pedal, so I'm not 100% sure about this, but it's what others stated in different threads.

[DeadWolfBones]

BUG (I think): Reverse gear doesn't seem to affect the clutch heat at all. When it's slipping in forward gear you can still go flat out in reverse without any adverse affects & the heat doesn't increase.

This is using paddles & auto clutch (can't afford a G25 yet :[ :[).

Anyone confirm or deny this?

[JTbo]

Anyone confirm or deny this?

Tested with RB4 at Blackwood, clutch heats at reverse and starts slipping just same way as in 1st gear.

Used paddle shift + auto clutch.

So no confirmation based on this test. Don't know which car he did use?

[smove]

So now that we finally have a working clutch and engines to stall, all we need is just force feedback pedals so that we can actually feel the point where the clutch grips ... :D

[Cue-Ball]

Not quite sure, but I think this has to do with where the biting point of the clutch is. Afaik, you can calibrate your clutch in LFS to have the biting point much earlier than with the default calibration where you obviously have to depress the clutch pedal fully. I don't have a clutch pedal, so I'm not 100% sure about this, but it's what others stated in different threads.This is true, but it really should be addressed by Scawen. In the real world you almost never have to push the clutch in completely in order to release the load on the transmission, since the biting point of the clutch is usually near the top of the pedal range. But in LFS you have to depress the clutch fully for the clutch to engage. It was this way in X10 and earlier patches as well. The physics should be changed so that rather than having the clutch engage linearly from the bottom to the top of travel, it should have some dead space at both ends, and the biting point should be near the top third of travel.

There are workarounds (DXTweak, calibration lock), but they shouldn't be necessary.

[skstibi]

Anyone confirm or deny this?

I deny it. I took the XRT and my G25 and fried the clutch in reverse. It did not move any direction after this.

[NeoSquall]

the engine dies after idling for a few minutes.

is it suppose to be like that or is it a bug? hmm... my car engine or any car engine doesnt die after idling for a few minutes.

btw... the clutch does heat up way to fast. Been out testing with my own car, doesnt slip as fast as wat the game claims :)

[AndroidXP]

The physics should be changed so that rather than having the clutch engage linearly from the bottom to the top of travel, it should have some dead space at both ends, and the biting point should be near the top third of travel.It doesn't engage linearly - it has a very distinct bite point at the top/end of LFS' ingame clutch travel. Most of the bottom travel does nothing. By applying a DxTweak/calibration fix the clutch becomes very real IMO.

[Cue-Ball]

It doesn't engage linearly - it has a very distinct bite point at the top/end of LFS' ingame clutch travel. Most of the bottom travel does nothing. By applying a DxTweak/calibration fix the clutch becomes very real IMO.The point is that we shouldn't have to use DXTweak or calibration lock at all. While it may or may not engage linearly (I don't think it's possible to tell for certain without elevating the rear wheels), LFS still requires the clutch to be fully (or nearly so) depressed before it completely disengages, which is not the way it works in the real world. We should be able to successfully shift with just a dab of the clutch, without resorting to locking the calibration.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

:confused:

Any properly adjusted road car clutch IRL should not be engaging when it's almost let out; if that's the case it's worn and needs adjustment. There shouldn't be much travel before the bite point. Some, yes, but not much and there should be much more travel after the clutch is engaged compared to before!

[DeadWolfBones]

Tested with RB4 at Blackwood, clutch heats at reverse and starts slipping just same way as in 1st gear.

Used paddle shift + auto clutch.

So no confirmation based on this test. Don't know which car he did use?

Odd. This was in the FBM.

As I said, I was using autoclutch. Once the clutch was already slipping (like, barely moving if I used the gas in forward gear) I shifted to reverse and could drive perfectly well.

I'll test it some more.

[skstibi]

I noticed on manual with no shift help you cant pull it out of gear anymore without using the clutch. You can easily do this in real life, it's how I pull my car out of gear actually. But it seems to hang up since this new patch.


I just tried this with X30 and it works exactly like previous patches. I did 2 laps without using the clutch for shifting in the XRT.

[Cue-Ball]

Any properly adjusted road car clutch IRL should not be engaging when it's almost let out; if that's the case it's worn and needs adjustment. There shouldn't be much travel before the bite point. Some, yes, but not much and there should be much more travel after the clutch is engaged compared to before!Let's say you've got a clutch pedal that moves 6" from completely depressed (disengaged) to completely out (engaged). If we start with the pedal all the way to the floor (clutch is disengaged, power is not transmitted from engine to tranny) we should have an inch or so of free play where the clutch doesn't engage. The same is true at the top of clutch travel (maybe not for race cars, but for road cars). The top inch or so of clutch pedal travel is free play and has no real effect. So that leaves us with the 4" in the middle. While the clutch might do most of it's grabbing in the first half of those four inches, if we hold the clutch in the exact center (the 3" mark) it will still slip. This slip is what we're interested in for shifting. We only need to depress the clutch enough for it to start slipping to be able to shift. So, in our theoretical 6" of pedal travel, we should only have to press in the clutch 2-3" (1/3 to 1/2 of total travel) before it slips enough to allow us to change gears.

The point being that you should never have to press the clutch all the way to the floor before you can shift. You CAN do that, but it shouldn't be required. The way that LFS works now (X10), you must press the clutch all the way to the floor (or nearly so) before you can shift, unless you use the DXTweak/calibration lock workaround.

I have no way to test this in game to see exactly how much "grip" the clutch has at different points in its travel, or whether or not it is completely linear. I only know that from my feel and past experience, LFS doesn't model dead zones at either end of the clutch travel (or else they are very small), and the clutch feels very linear. If someone can show hard data to prove me wrong, I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

No, I think you're right I misunderstood your previous post. I still think you should need to depress it more than half, based on what you said (which is true), "some clutch slip" isn't enough to let synchros bring the shaft speeds together - shifting without almost totally disengaging the clutch is very hard on synchromesh since they are fighting ANY friction from the clutch. So if that gets modelled, then synchros need to be able to wear out during a long race.

[skstibi]

Cue-ball got it. If your clutch is set up properly, your friction point is in the center of the travel. On my car (lets say it is 6" of travel) push the clutch down 2 inches, nothing happens. Let it up 2 inches from the bottom, nothing happens. Let it up another inch and if your foot is not on the throttle, the engine will die very quickly.

On my sisters truck (with a clutch that is set up totally wrong and I need to fix it) the friction point is at the top. Push the clutch in 2 inches and it is disengaged. It is just dead in the rest of the 4 inches.

With LFS my clutch pedal moves about 3 inches (damn logitech can't get it right :D)I let it up half way and it starts to bite and the rest of the travel is made wrong. I can be floored and push the clutch down just a little (about a half inch) and it slips all the way through until it disengages about half way down.

I was in that calibration window and watching the clutch axis in the calibration window then looking at the clutch bar. The calibration window sees my foot coming half way up the pedal before the regular blue clutch bar showed movement.

[Hallen]

I did some more testing last night on the clutch slipping/heating/clutch pedal travel thing.

I found that I could make shifts in the XRG and LX4 that did not burn up the clutch. It basically comes down to making very sure that the clutch is all the way out before putting any pressure on the gas pedal and then carefully rolling the gas in. It is slower shifting this way and it might be realistic... but I am not too sure about that.

If you apply any gas at all prior to having the clutch all the way out, the clutch will slip and generate heat. This would be normal except that the slipping phase seems to last too long and heats the clutch much more than you would expect.

The other thing I noticed, and this is where I could be completely wrong, but I noticed that the heat generation was really random. On some stints, the clutch heated up right away and became undrivable.
In other cases, I could not get the clutch to heat up even when being really aggressive on the shifts and applying throttle more quickly. This part has me a bit concerned.

[Piekokas]

And second bug, if you have puncture and goes into box, you get new tyre, but unfortunately it has no air inside :)

I had this problem today with version X31.
After pitting and changing the front tyres, the tyre that blew up wasn't "completly changed"... :P

Here's the screenshot:

[Woz]

The point being that you should never have to press the clutch all the way to the floor before you can shift. You CAN do that, but it shouldn't be required. The way that LFS works now (X10), you must press the clutch all the way to the floor (or nearly so) before you can shift, unless you use the DXTweak/calibration lock workaround.

The DXTweak solution to this is the best. I have used that technique for years now and not looked back because the LFS clutch always needed to be fully pressed in, which as we know is just wrong.

[Cue-Ball]

The DXTweak solution to this is the best. I have used that technique for years now and not looked back because the LFS clutch always needed to be fully pressed in, which as we know is just wrong.Well, i think the best solution would be if the clutch were modeled properly in the first place, so that DXTweak wasn't needed. :thumb:

[Not Sure]

I tried it out, and it seems that we can still shift without using the clutch, by just rev matching. :thumb:

It doesn't work in "sequential operation of H-pattern", only for shifters. Fair enough, i have a feeling santa will bring me a G25. :D

[ghost racer]

I tried it out, and it seems that we can still shift without using the clutch, by just rev matching. :thumb:

It doesn't work in "sequential operation of H-pattern", only for shifters. Fair enough, i have a feeling santa will bring me a G25. :D

Is there a way you can trick it to do that???? I lost some realism :(

[skstibi]

well, the thing I can think of that needs to be fixed more than the rest is the clutch. The cars act like they have motorcycle clutches on them. When you shift a car in real life the clutch does not continue slipping after you have let it all the way out unless you have a really really cheap clutch.

Currently in LFS with a new clutch that is still cold slips like hell when you shift. Even my car with a clutch that is a bit too small grabs harder than anything in LFS. When I let my clutch out, I expect it to grab right then and there, not slip a half second extra. If you keep doing shifts like that it will eventually start slipping as it heats up.

[Not Sure]

agree 100%

[evilpimp]

I had this problem today with version X31.
After pitting and changing the front tyres, the tyre that blew up wasn't "completly changed"... :P

Here's the screenshot:
LOL THATS FUNNNNYYY.

[atledreier]

About the clutch, and where it 'bites'. That is really a function of the applied torque. Think of the clutch as a brake system. If there's little torque applied, the biting point will be further in, because the pedal really control how much torque the clutch can transfer. That also sort of confirm Cue-Ball's observation about the first 1" of depression not really doing anything. Well, it does. You are reducing the POTENTIAL torque transfer, or preload, but the engine is not putting out enough torque for the clutch to start slipping. And that's where I think Scawen might have got it wrong. There is just not enough preload in the clutch.
Let's analyze:

Assume the clutch is linear in operation, and the max torque it can transfer without slipping is 300Nm. The engine we are using can supply 200Nm. So the clutch would be fully engaged at 2/3 travel, correct?

There's also the element of static and dynamic friction, which might be part of the issue here, the transition from dynamic to static which in most cars will feel like a 'jolt'.
The static friction is higher than the dynamic friction, so maybe Scawen took the staticv friction number when calculating the max torque the clutch can hold when matching the clutch to the engine, and forgot about the lower dynamic friction? Just throwing out ideas here...

Personally I think the clutches need to be 'stiffer' (more preload) so they lock properly when fully lifted.

[kdesser]

Hello,

I noticed some weird things happen when you shutoff your engine (turn off ignition), both graphical as functional.

The car's horn stops working, it's only possible to horn if you keep moving your throttle pedal.

The headlights stay on when you press and hold the headlight key, then turn off ignition and release the headlight key.

And if you flip your car on it's roof, and your wheels are still rotating, you shut off ignition, and the wheel stop to rotate after 3 seconds or so, (visible in chase cam).
When you press the throttle with the engine still shut off they start rotating again.
If you then turn on the ignition, release clutch, the wheels will pick up there spinning speed again.

I could post a replay but it was very easy to replicate and tested by my friend Soref and me :)

Regards and much respect,
Bas W

Sidenote; I like to see the mods delete or move all posts that do NOT concern bugs, cause i spent like 30 mins looking if my bug was already mentioned in here. Also I don't think the dev's will like to look at so many crap before they see any useful reports.

[Gil07]

About the black tyre after pitstop thingy:

I just tested, and the tyres are only inflated if Damage Repair is set to "Yes". If it's set to "no", you'll get a new tyre, but it's not inflated, ie, black. A bug surely? I think tyres would normally be inflated before they are put on a car :D

[deather]

well, the thing I can think of that needs to be fixed more than the rest is the clutch. The cars act like they have motorcycle clutches on them. When you shift a car in real life the clutch does not continue slipping after you have let it all the way out unless you have a really really cheap clutch.

Currently in LFS with a new clutch that is still cold slips like hell when you shift. Even my car with a clutch that is a bit too small grabs harder than anything in LFS. When I let my clutch out, I expect it to grab right then and there, not slip a half second extra. If you keep doing shifts like that it will eventually start slipping as it heats up.

+1.

Otherwise, I think I might have found a bug:

Start your car, just roll out at any speed you want. Then, turn off the ignition, put you in neutral, and wait for the engine to come to 0 RPM (it might take a while, be sure to have space in front of you).

Then, without touching any pedal, enter a gear. The gear will mesh, even if you don't press the clutch!

I'm using an H-shifter and I tested this on the LX6.

[Flotch]

Trying the fxo, I'm still getting better results with locked diff and no ARB at the back :shrug: (compare to clutch pack and any stiffness of rear ARB), is that supposed to act like this?

[R_M]

Does anyone else find it hard to get the car rolling from a tame 3k rpm start? It's as if the engine is very very light or has no flywheel. It's feels to me like some paperclip crankshafted engine which has no inertia or inner friction to deal with lol.
Clutch heating and stalling are not affecting my racing at all. I get a pixel or so of clutch heating for the entire race using all manual controls, but it invariably means pulling off in 1st gear at near 6-7k just to stop the engine from being utterly swamped.

It seems if you hold it at 3k rpm, you need the smallest crack of throttle opening, which when you apply the small touch of clutch causes it to swamp down massively needing more throttle. The contrast of balance between the two pedals just feels massive. Even in the road cars.
My daily driver has an extensively lightend small capacity bottom-end and fly-wheel, along with a lot of supercharger drag, and a near on/off cerrametallic 3 paddle clutch and it's nowhere NEAR as bad as LFS.

Like I said it's not affecting my race at all, it's just now that stalling is a factor, and clutch wear is a factor, it may be something to look in to as a 2.5/3k brisk pull off in even the tamest of LFS's road cars seems to be a trick of timing, rather than just being sensitive.

10,000% right.

[z3r0c00l]

I wasn't very sure about where to post this. But much like the hilarious videos posted in the general forum, if you are driving with the automatic gears (I was testing out the demo on a fresh install on a work laptop, as I was too impatient to wait to get home),

If you melt the clutch, the computer "changing gear for you" doesn't know the difference between driving the wheels, and burning the clutch.

This may mean that the AI drivers won't be able to baby the clutch after a serious spin?

Sorry if this is in the wrong place/already somewhere I couldn't find - I don't even mind to be honest - First time I've used auto gears in ages.

[Kshyhoo]

Well... i drove some laps with the updated clutch wear, and unless this will be changed to something more user friendly, i will let go LFS... I understand the rule "as real as it gets" - but remember about the FUN FACTOR!!! Devs made it more realstic (including the feature, not how it works), but now i spent almost an hour on using mainly the F word when the clutch got worn again... even in XFG... That's insane! Don't make me stick only with Richard Burns Rally!

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

L2drvkthxbai

[Cue-Ball]

Well... i drove some laps with the updated clutch wear, and unless this will be changed to something more user friendly, i will let go LFS... I understand the rule "as real as it gets" - but remember about the FUN FACTOR!!! Devs made it more realstic (including the feature, not how it works), but now i spent almost an hour on using mainly the F word when the clutch got worn again... even in XFG... That's insane! Don't make me stick only with Richard Burns Rally!While I do believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with the current clutch modeling, I really don't see how people are having so much trouble with this. I raced last night and was able to finish 33 laps around Westhill and 25 laps around South City Classic in road cars with H-shifters. In both cases I finished the race with barely any heat at all in the clutch.

I honestly don't know how or why people are having such trouble with clutch overheating. Seriously - if you can't finish a race without burning up the clutch, even with the currently flawed modeling, you need to take a good hard look at your driving style.

[mixer13134]

The clutch is way too weak imo. Even LADA's have stronger clutches. I mean it can't even handle a burnout and it's already done.

[JTbo]

The clutch is way too weak imo. Even LADA's have stronger clutches. I mean it can't even handle a burnout and it's already done.

Why do you think Lada would have weak clutch.

Learn to do burnout properly then, I can pop my tires just fine and clutch won't even take heat...

[skstibi]

I don't have many problems other than the clutch. The clutches just don't have the right load capabilitis. I might understand it if it was like that in a lower quality road car but not in a GTR or Formula. I mean hell, if my car acted like the ones in LFS, I would pull that clutch out and play chuck the thing back to china :shy:. Other than that, it is bloody briliant! I don't have any problems with the clutch heat anymore but still.

To answer a question, AI's have no clue how to function when he clutch gets hot or how to deal with tall 1st gear ratios. They fry the clutch if it has a tall 1st gear. I played with those new AI and figured out that if I hand brake turn infront of them causing me to hold their car back with mine, they keep cooking the clutch in high gear until they run out of fuel.

[Kshyhoo]

I honestly don't know how or why people are having such trouble with clutch overheating. Seriously - if you can't finish a race without burning up the clutch, even with the currently flawed modeling, you need to take a good hard look at your driving style.

Of course that was my first idea... that i am srcrewing things up! But i tried to be gentle and carefull with shifting (using paddles with DFP wheel and autoclutch - only 2 pedals), and i was focused mostly on shifting, not on driving...

[mixer13134]

Why do you think Lada would have weak clutch.

Learn to do burnout properly then, I can pop my tires just fine and clutch won't even take heat...

Because it's a lada...:D

In real life I can do good burnouts with a lada on all kinds of surfaces. In lfs I can't even burnout a FZ5. It's my problem then I guess.

[Cue-Ball]

Of course that was my first idea... that i am srcrewing things up! But i tried to be gentle and carefull with shifting (using paddles with DFP wheel and autoclutch - only 2 pedals), and i was focused mostly on shifting, not on driving...Can you run a few laps and upload a replay? You've GOT to be doing something wrong. But without even seeing you drive, my guess is that you are not lifting off the throttle when shifting up, or blipping the throttle when shifting down. There's also a post in the main forum about how to shift each of the cars properly. That might help you. But you NEED to lift/blip during shifts. Not doing so will fry the clutch.

It seems to me as though the clutch heat was put in to prevent people from driving unrealistically, and to punish those who are hard on the car. Personally, I would rather see the clutch more strong and lifelike, and punish bad shifting in the same way that it's punished in real life - locking tires and car instability.

Go practice your shifting technique, which should make you faster and make your car last longer. Then also cross your fingers that X32 has fixed clutch behavior. :)

[skstibi]

Because it's a lada...:D

In real life I can do good burnouts with a lada on all kinds of surfaces. In lfs I can't even burnout a FZ5. It's my problem then I guess.

The only problem I had was doing doughnuts in second gear with the FZ5 :D
I did constant burnouts with the FZR (probably did 50 full out rev limit then dump the clutch) and the tires poped long before it was going to get hot. Ony thing that makes me mad is that weak clutch that does not let me leave an extra 3 feet of rubber as I smack it into second. That was my damn trademark launch with the FZR, every race start, every pit stop, every recovery of a spin :razz:

Now it sounds like a typical american sh** shift every time I try to leave that extra bit of rubber (no offence to the small % of americans who actually can shift properly)

[JTbo]

Can you run a few laps and upload a replay? You've GOT to be doing something wrong. But without even seeing you drive, my guess is that you are not lifting off the throttle when shifting up, or blipping the throttle when shifting down. There's also a post in the main forum about how to shift each of the cars properly. That might help you. But you NEED to lift/blip during shifts. Not doing so will fry the clutch.

It seems to me as though the clutch heat was put in to prevent people from driving unrealistically, and to punish those who are hard on the car. Personally, I would rather see the clutch more strong and lifelike, and punish bad shifting in the same way that it's punished in real life - locking tires and car instability.

Go practice your shifting technique, which should make you faster and make your car last longer. Then also cross your fingers that X32 has fixed clutch behavior. :)

Actually I'm happy with current behaviour at this point, until Scawen does new engine model for some future patch that comes after Y.

[flymike91]

i havent heard anybody say how the clutch is handling drifting

[Cue-Ball]

Actually I'm happy with current behaviour at this point, until Scawen does new engine model for some future patch that comes after Y.I think that the current behavior is very raceable, but it's still very incorrect and will have negative side effects. There's no reason to settle for the way it is now if Scawen can tweak it a bit to be more realistic and natural.

The grip of the clutch should be stronger than the grip of the tires or the power of the engine. We can still keep the clutch overheating when people slip it too much, but the basic behavior really does need to be fixed.

[Cue-Ball]

i havent heard anybody say how the clutch is handling driftingNobody knows since the demo doesn't have the XRT anymore. ;)

[mongoosetierney]

I dont know if this has came up alredy i look threw as many non bug post's(with the odd report here and there) as i could, but has ne1 noticed/realised that you can flat shift in ALL turbo cars with minimal to no clutch damage. This is a bug/flaw right?

Please read this Scawen and Reply, And thank you and Eric/Vic for the work you have all been doing. :thumb:

[audimasta]

Well i don't know if this is the right place to post this but....I found a little bug. Don't know if it's been there from before the test patch, but anyways.

I was driving a fox around so chicane route reverse, and rolled at the exit of the chicane. Went upside down, and my engine went to a stall. I was in 6th gear. Still upside down, and still having stalled the engine, i pressed the throttle and then my FRONT wheels started spinning for about 3 sec. Then they suddenly stopped. I tapped the throttle again, and the same thing happened.:tilt:

I have a replay if needed :)

[Tweaker]

I have a replay if needed :)
Of course it is needed :doh:

[audimasta]

Of course it is needed :doh:

Ok, ok chill...I though maybe the explenation was enough:)

It's in the end of the replay.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Don't mind him, he's forgotten to take his Mydol for the past 6 months or so :D

[jayhawk]

While I do believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with the current clutch modeling, I really don't see how people are having so much trouble with this. I raced last night and was able to finish 33 laps around Westhill and 25 laps around South City Classic in road cars with H-shifters. In both cases I finished the race with barely any heat at all in the clutch.

I honestly don't know how or why people are having such trouble with clutch overheating. Seriously - if you can't finish a race without burning up the clutch, even with the currently flawed modeling, you need to take a good hard look at your driving style.

Summed up what I believe. Really now; I thought it was the Americans that cannot grasp the concept of a three pedal car. :razz:

Either that, or the majority of players are well under the age of 18, and thus never driven in real life.

[legoflamb]

Ther is a problem with the sequential shifter, not a big problem, but it doesnt seem right. The problem is that you can hold the shift up button/stick/paddle and just lift throttle all the way up through the gears.

I think one should have to release the up shift button/stick/paddle in order to be able to shift again to the next gear.

Edit: disregard above, but like the old H-pattern shifters, with the sequential you can do something like pre-shifting if you hold the shifter before you have lifted throttle.

[legoflamb]

Summed up what I believe. Really now; I thought it was the Americans that cannot grasp the concept of a three pedal car. :razz:

Either that, or the majority of players are well under the age of 18, and thus never driven in real life.

Off topic:

I agree :nod:

[Kazu2799]

Drift with the new clutch is nice. I did about 20 laps with the xrg and i never overheated the clutch.

[STenyaK]

Drift with the new clutch is nice. I did about 20 laps with the xrg and i never overheated the clutch.
Which means you do not use the kick-clutch drift technique... i'm a crappy drifter so i use it often (more often than handbrake in fact).
I haven't tried though (broke a finger the other day so i've only been able to test the new patchs with keyboard :( ).

[Nicocrank]

awesome the clutch with G25 , dont have any problem on overheating clutch , i guess if u know how to use a real clutch for whats is its design for, you will feel at home with the new settings, recommend auto clutch off also , for maximum fun :thumb::thumb:

also For drifting i felt more in control or i can really feel the motion of the car when its sliding on the track :thumb::thumb:

Drift with the new clutch is nice. I did about 20 laps with the xrg and i never overheated the clutch.

[kdesser]

Ok, ok chill...I though maybe the explenation was enough:)

It's in the end of the replay.


See my post on previous page...
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=627755#post627755

[audimasta]

See my post on previous page...
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=627755#post627755

Ahh...Skimmed through the thread but didn't see your post:weeping:

[HeerBommel]

Yesterday, I drove a race with AI drivers with XFG on Blackwood, but after 3 laps my clutch was overheated, and I couldn't drive the car anymore.After a restart => same problem, The AI's seems having no problems with the clutch but I can't drive not more than 3 laps (keyboard steerring and automatic clutch).The only way to spare the clutch is to drive very carefull and use the gears very carefull but that cost me 4 sec. per lap :-(

[AndroidXP]

You have to lift the throttle while shifting. And how is that a physics bug? :geezer:

[sinbad]

Yesterday, I drove a race with AI drivers with XFG on Blackwood, but after 3 laps my clutch was overheated, and I couldn't drive the car anymore.After a restart => same problem, The AI's seems having no problems with the clutch but I can't drive not more than 3 laps (keyboard steerring and automatic clutch).The only way to spare the clutch is to drive very carefull and use the gears very carefull but that cost me 4 sec. per lap :-(

Post a replay. The only time I've burnt out the clutch whilst actually driving round the track has been to see if it's possible. It doesn't exactly demand massive respect in order to keep it cool enough. Just don't have your foot to the floor and the engine redlining when the clutch re-engages. Lifting costs a bit of time in the TBO class because the turbo needs to spool up again, but in the NA cars you don't lose much at all, certainly nowhere near 4 seconds per lap at Blackwood.

[HeerBommel]

And how is that a physics bug? :geezer:

What Else ??It's not difficult to burn your clutch, do a little test => Drive XFG, make a pitstop, finish the pitstop and drive away in second gear (keyboard steerring), before the end of the pitlane your clutch is gone !!!!!!!!!!

[Mille Sabords]

Please HeerBommel this is not a physics bug, you have to understand that you need new gear ratios especially if you drive with autoclutch (like I do), try to pull out of stop in 3nd gear IRL (that would be your current LFS 2nd gear more or less) @ 6000RPM and tell me how it smells :)
Enjoy this new patch, now you have a lot to test and more to learn!

[arco]

Actually I'm happy with current behaviour at this point, until Scawen does new engine model for some future patch that comes after Y.

I'm quite sure you will be happy with whatever changes they throw in. If you were required to run 10 times around your house before playing LFS, I'm sure you would gladly do it. :really:

[mongoosetierney]

Could people stop talking about the Patch here. Make a different thread this is for IMPORTANT BUG REPORTS. Thanks.

[Dillyracer]

Which means you do not use the kick-clutch drift technique... i'm a crappy drifter so i use it often (more often than handbrake in fact).
I haven't tried though (broke a finger the other day so i've only been able to test the new patchs with keyboard :( ).

Actually, from what I remembered, pro's use the clutch-kicking technique more than the handbrake.

[Breizh]

drive away in second gear (keyboard steerring)
Do the same with a real car and report back...

[Crady]

Well I don´t know if it is a bug, but I have problems shifting the last gear. Especialy I have this problem with the FOX.. All other gears are ok but to shift the sixth I have to press the paddle several times...

[Rotareneg]

Do the same with a real car and report back...

Once I had to drive 5 miles in second gear (shifter cable broke) on city streets with plenty of stop lights. The clutch held out just fine, although I admit I wasn't trying to race. :D

As far as burnt clutches go, when I was getting my CDL another student appeared to be unable to learn how to use the clutch and overheated the poor thing to the point that it would start slipping just driving over a highway overpass.

Also, with unsynchronized transmissions it's easy to shift without the clutch, just lift off the throttle a bit to take the load of the gears, shift into neutral, then blip or cut the throttle to match RPMs. I'm not sure if most manual transmissions in race cars are synchronized or not however.

[yueyue]

oops,i love the new physics,it's closer to real.

but there's still a big problem: "Formula Drift"

F1 can drift for a long time and a long length

here is the spr:D

[kaynd]

so what? a real formula can't slide sideways?
It will sure loose all it's DF and then be completely uncontrollable but there is a long way in front of us for such detailed aero model... it might not come even in S3

[yueyue]

so what? a real formula can't slide sideways?
It will sure loose all it's DF and then be completely uncontrollable but there is a long way in front of us for such detailed aero model... it might not come even in S3

:D real formula can drift,Kubica even had a long drift in Chinese GP 06


but the formula car can drift too long,hopefully it will be better in S3,

BTW,if the car don't slide,it feels good!:tilt:

[uttoro]

Not sure where to post:

Is it correct, that auto shifter in a street car applies the clutch faster than manual?

[AJS]

It's as if the engine is very very light or has no flywheel. It's feels to me like some paperclip crankshafted engine which has no inertia or inner friction to deal with lol.

Yup

First thing i tried with the new patch was "Shift-Lock" with the XRG.

3rd gear 6000 RPM press the clutch shift to 2nd and then just kick the clutch without to heel and toe at all.

Nada Zippo niente. The rear wheels didnt lock up at all.

Try this in real life or better not. On trackday I locked up my wheels once when i didnt get heel and toe 100% right and that was far from being as brutal as my try in LFS.

[Napalm Candy]

When go out from pits (boxes or garage or what you want to say it) and
If you turn soon and touch the wall, the car it spun and ejected 10 meters away

The GTi and tourism in general, are very unrealistics, because the sensations and the reactions of the cars are more tipically from a wet way than a dry way. Is extremely easy to make Oversteering without handbrake inclusive at 60km/h :(

[TypeRCivic]

I've found a weird bug...I was messing around with new test patch and ran across this. However I managed to save a replay... LMK if you find anything wrong with this. I'm not sure if it's been experienced before or not. I cant see why this would only happen on my PC, but you never know. Maybe this should be looked at by the DEVS, Dont ask me what made me do this but I was bored and looking how the car acts to when you dont hold the clutch in and I was hoping it would jump start but I was like WOW MY PC is messing up... And this time I know I'm not messed up, this is happening..:nod: LMK whats the deal with this.

[dougie-lampkin]

When go out from pits (boxes or garage or what you want to say it) and
If you turn soon and touch the wall, the car it spun and ejected 10 meters away

The pit walls and dividers have been doing this since S2 was released I think...

[PLAYLIFE]

The pit walls and dividers have been doing this since S2 was released I think...

Got auto banned on the P!!nk server today because of that

[JTbo]

Blackwood pit stable walls are still quite agressive, found out as accidentally touched one a bit.

Replay attached.


Also from year 2006 video from same issue (http://www.janiervast.com/lfs/collision/video_body_view/hit_body.avi).

Edit:
I guess these are only useful for reference to patch Z or something.

[JTbo]

Those are related, engine shutoff is to exclude car from physics calculations to save cpu time, but it seem to have effect of temp cooling also.

[marzman]

Maybe it's on other tracks to, but i discovered your car gets repaired when you drive into an out-of-bounds section on South City (including clutch and tires).

[Breizh]

Does it save that much CPU time? It might not be a very important thing, but sometimes it was handy in practice session to let overheated tyres cool down in pits for a few min. while e.g. going on the toilet. ;)
Press I when you're back from the toilet?