BUG REPORTS : AI Drivers [Archive]

Cue-Ball

10th December 2007, 20:09

I just tried an all-AI race on Blackwood with the new BMW. The race was 150 laps which required the AI cars to pit once. All cars pitted on lap 79, but only three cars made it out of the pits. The rest burned up their clutches trying to get out. One car actually is still shown as pitting, but he's sitting outside of the pit area, on the drive-through lane. It says that his pit stop is finished, but it appears that since his clutch is burned up he can't get underway to end the pit stop.

Out of 10 cars in the race, only three made it out of the pits. Still an improvement though. :)

kompa

10th December 2007, 20:12

the ai drivers don't seem to blip the throttle on downshifts (lx6)

Jay

10th December 2007, 20:12

yay, the AI is very cool. ppl driving like this are banned on most servers, arent they? :)

well, keep an eye on the rac-ai in the pits. it repairs some damage, the xrt kicks his ass and it looks like there is a bigger problem. lfs wants to continue the pitstop while the rac is already pushed out of the pits by the xrt.

http://rapidshare.com/files/75678684/wtfki.spr.html

R.Kolz

10th December 2007, 20:15

AI´s can´t drive the LX6/RAC/FZ50 on the rallytracks (BL2/FE5) anymore.

@they continue their pitstops outside the pits. Se att.files.

SpikeyMarcoD

10th December 2007, 20:28

They stopped on middle of track after qualy/during qualy. They should have pitted?

auch_enne

10th December 2007, 20:55

Entering pitlane to fast, getting DT, comming in for DT entering to fast getting now DT, etc etc etc..

Overtaking on the straight they give a much to aggressive yank on the wheel causing them to spin out.

They have no "race sense" no blocking or proper overtaking.

Also crashed/rolled AI should be removed from track..?

Of the 12 cars that started 3 reached the finnish, those 3 where FZ5 cars, one LX6 managed to keep going till lap 39 of 45. Rac, XFR's UFR's and other 2 lx's crashed or rolled early in race.

TFalke55

10th December 2007, 20:59

happened to me: a 15 min qualifing and 8 mins to go... every car returned to pits, get into the stall and stand still... :(

JTbo

10th December 2007, 21:16

Those bummers indeed burn their clutches if they spin on city track, they don't feel sorry for it at least.

Replay (http://jtbo.pp.fi/images/LFS/JTbo_SO6_XRT_FINISHED.zip)

I tried to cause havoc there, succeeded quite well as many AI cars did not move to finishline ;)

Priitmek

10th December 2007, 21:23

Just tried to have a 2h race for AI, but they did not go to pits to refuel.

And AI still has no idea how to pass another one.

AndroidXP

10th December 2007, 21:40

Dudes, please don't report the AI being not "smart" and don't have much racecraft. Scawen posted in his TOPIC post that he knows about that and is going to work on it in the coming week.

That said, the AI needs to handle the clutches better. Had a meagre 20 lap FBM BL1 race and I think out of 10 AI only 6 finished, with the others randomly littered around the track trying to move with their burnt clutches. Though it seems they handled it quite ok up to the point they made their pitstop.

Thorvertonian

10th December 2007, 23:35

If an AI s bumped by another car mid pit-stop, he drives out the pits and does another lap and runs out of fuel, rather than pitting in the next open pit box

Scawen

10th December 2007, 23:38

Thanks for the bug reports. Yes I posted that they still ram players, and I'll be working on that.

rigth before AI gonna pit on OVAL
They go 2 fast
They get penalty (or what it called)Which car were you using? This will help me reproduce the bug in minimum time.

They stopped on middle of track after qualy/during qualy. They should have pitted?Which track configuration was this on? If it's a SO Sprint Track or FE Rallycross Green there are no pit stops or pit lane so that's what they do.

Entering pitlane to fast, getting DT, comming in for DT entering to fast getting now DT, etc etc etc..Which car and track configuration was that?

aroX123

10th December 2007, 23:39

The new car...

dawesdust_12

10th December 2007, 23:41

Scawen, All cars speed entering pit lane at KY1 (Untested at other combos)

aroX123

10th December 2007, 23:43

A odd question:

Will it come more cars? NEW in other patch?

( i have seen some vid's on youtube that someone have make a car)
Skoda car...

AndroidXP

10th December 2007, 23:45

This is a bug report thread, please keep it to bug reports only. Even though the other posts weren't 100% on topic they were at least vaguely related. :x

Shotglass

10th December 2007, 23:54

they seem to be aware that hot tyres have less grip but are they also aware that its they themself heating those tyres up?
toying around with 20 fo8s at bl1 led to a whole bunch of ais locking up everywhere and driving in a puff of smoke after just a few laps (less than 5)

troy

11th December 2007, 00:01

just had this failure messages in a server full of AI's not sure if its really related but i guess its best to post the screenie here.

message was: invalid (x) - could not find connection

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 00:11

just had this failure messages in a server full of AI's not sure if its really related but i guess its best to post the screenie here.

message was: invalid (x) - could not find connectionThat looks like a failed InSim message to me. Are you running an InSim tool that might not be compatible with the latest patch? Just a thought.

dawesdust_12

11th December 2007, 00:15

Well, we're in the SR Ai server, so their app might need to be fixed some.

Thorvertonian

11th December 2007, 00:17

I've just taken it off-line, it shouldn't have been running anyway, but all insim apps are now off

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 00:33

Are the AI drivers supposed to pit for anything other than fuel and tires? I'm running a race around South City with 9 AI drivers right now. One hit the wall and damaged his suspension, but rather than pitting he's continuing to limp around the track, causing pileups and generally being a rolling road block.

Are the AI supposed to pit for damage or retire if it gets bad enough? Is this planned for post-Alpha?

_--NZ--_[HUN]

11th December 2007, 00:51

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 00:59

;623545']My FO8 AI just kept going with deflated rear tyres and damaged suspension.Yeah, I've found the same thing. At first it was just one AI that bent up his car who refused to pit, but after less than an hour, an entire field of 9 AI drivers on South City have pretty much totaled their cars. They've either plowed into the guy that was putting along, they've hit the wall, or they've blown out their rear tires. None of them have pitted for new tires or to fix damage, so I'm guessing that behavior isn't included in this patch.

Edit: I'm also curious if the Newbie-Learner-OK-Quick-Pro makes a difference. I've tried a few AI-only races on the different levels and noticed no real difference in lap times, passing ability, driving line, etc.

dev

11th December 2007, 01:40

Multiplayer game... Two AI crashed, the one in front got massive LAG, and the second one stoped and waited... Look at the replay, watch the AI called Sonny...

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 01:54

It looks like AI drivers stop for fuel on races measured in laps, but not on timed races. I ran a few races today that were 100 or more laps and each time the AI would pit for fuel (or at least try to). I just ran a 1 hour race on Westhill with three each of the GTR class cars with "pit stop required"=yes. The AI cars correctly determined that they would need to run 2 stints, and they put less than a full tank of fuel in. However, by lap 22 (about 35 minutes into the hour long race) the FXRs were running out of fuel. Two laps later the XRRs and FZRs ran out. None of the cars ever stopped for fuel.

So, they correctly knew that they would have to stop for fuel. They correctly gave themselves enough fuel for about half of the distance. But they never stopped to refill.

Shinomori

11th December 2007, 03:03

On FE Black Rev AI drivers in the LX6 are consistently overcooking the corner after you go over the bridge.
It's quite funny to watch a group of 20 of them do it.
Tried the same w/ the RAC and they're fine. The LX6 drivers are fine on the same corner on FE Gold Rev.

PaulC2K

11th December 2007, 03:49

Same thing here, AI cars not knowing they're about to run out of fuel and just grind to a halt, also a timed race.
Can only comment on the FZR really at this point, as they ran out about 10min ago, the XRRs are all sitting in various gravel traps and the FXRs are leading the way but will eventually run out of fuel :(
Im betting it wont take much to fix, probably just an oversight, but at least its getting there.

The fuel calculations at the start were interesting to see, nice knowing they dont just stick 100% fuel in and keep on going and instead devise their own strategy of sorts.
Also, a question about the AI while im thinking about it, half the FZR's which ran out of fuel also picked up a puncture the same lap, and its got me wondering whether they pit for damage & tyres, though im guessing they wont revise the strategy based on their findings (ie flat 60% into their intented stints).

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 04:32

Also, a question about the AI while im thinking about it, half the FZR's which ran out of fuel also picked up a puncture the same lap, and its got me wondering whether they pit for damage & tyresFrom what I've seen so far (I've run several AI races of varying lengths), the AI drivers do not stop for tires or damage - only fuel. And even then, not during timed races. Hopefully Scawen can fix this in the next test patch.

[RCG]Boosted

11th December 2007, 05:24

oval/FZ50 when pitting the AI *might* spin out sometimes.
sometimes a few AI's try to take the same pitbox, resulting in 2-5 cars beside, instead of taking another box they drive another lap and pit then.
same config, they pushed eachother on pitentrance what resulted in penaltys, which they dont clear.

edit - AI's dont repair if pitstop isnt forced.
no matter how many damage they have.

SpikeyMarcoD

11th December 2007, 05:58

Thanks for the bug reports. Yes I posted that they still ram players, and I'll be working on that.

Which car were you using? This will help me reproduce the bug in minimum time.

Which track configuration was this on? If it's a SO Sprint Track or FE Rallycross Green there are no pit stops or pit lane so that's what they do.

Which car and track configuration was that?

Nope was FE1 Club is that i believe.

SpikeyMarcoD

11th December 2007, 06:00

Found it intersting they all had same strategy and came in to pits at same lap. Are they supposed to used same strategies atm?

auch_enne

11th December 2007, 06:45

Which car and track configuration was that?

SO Chicane, saw it doing a damaged RAC each time, altough an other RAC and LX6 made the same mistake a few times. The damaged RAC never got a chance to repair due to always entering to complete drive tru and getting a new one.

Pasci

11th December 2007, 11:34

KNOWN ISSUES : The AI will still drive into you quite a lot when you are racing, in the pit lane or on the main track. The focus so far has been their speed and racing reliability, and their ability to pit. I expect to work on their behaviour around other cars this week.

Thanks for you're work - and nice to know, what should by fixed also soon. I hope this evening I can drive with friends and some AI via internet... yesterday I'm driving with 19 AIs. Only the main problem (which you want fix anyway - see above) I could report and a little chaos within the pitbox.

I hope, the next (AI) test patch coming soon...

once again: all over - very impressiv and nice work

PS: Could ai also drive with wind soon? At the moment both isn't allowed.

uttoro

11th December 2007, 11:54

AI dont pit when practice

Tommy

11th December 2007, 12:32

Ai behaves ok (pitting) when server has compulsory pitstop = on, but when it doesnt, they NEVER pit.

Instead of calculating pitstops on start of the race, they should do it dynamically, like 200m before pitlane:
im_damaged_a_little && have_1min_advantage = dont pit
but, im_damaged_hard = pit.

while damage == structural damage && tire worn
some simple function would do here.

Coming out of the pit at start they should let pass whoever is on the main straight in the pit (now they crash into each other)

Coming into pits, "pitting guide lane" should be done so that they wont go over other pit boxes;
they have to watch for other racers coming out of their pit boxes.

Lotesdelere

11th December 2007, 12:34

AI dont pit when practice
They don't pit for refuelling during qualify either.
What is pretty annoying is that they have their own fuel 'strategy' and looks like they don't obey the fuel settings set into the garage.

Anyway they can't pit properly during a race. They are ALL going to pit on the same lap because they are ALL using the same fuel strategy (see above) and if there are more than 3 AI's on track they are going to crash each others in the pitlane.

There are also some issues with overtaking :shrug:

GeForz

11th December 2007, 12:51

I don't know if this is really AI related, but I just disconnected from a server where we were running AI races with a "STORE OVERFLOW" error.

My AI made his mandatory pit stop and got pushed out of the pit lane by other AIs.

Replay attached. It's "Kamel 3" at the end of lap4.

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 17:11

Ai behaves ok (pitting) when server has compulsory pitstop = on, but when it doesnt, they NEVER pit.That is not the behavior that I've seen. I ran multiple races yesterday with AI drivers. During at least two races where compulsory pit was turned off, the AI drivers DID pit for fuel. The did not pit for damage or tires, and they did not pit during timed races (1+ hour), but they did stop during long races for fuel. The problem is that they all stop on the same lap and crash each other out in the pits.

kaynd

11th December 2007, 17:36

AI doesn’t try to remove the flipped or stuck to the wall car from the track and if there is no other way (luck of reverse gear @ MRT) they will stay stuck in the middle of the track for the entire race.

They could shift+s if reset is not allowed.

[RCG]Boosted

11th December 2007, 18:10

what does that mrt in the top of the pic there? Oo

kaynd

11th December 2007, 18:55

Flying after a full speed crash with a flipped ,in the middle of the track, mrt :D

Yeah also AI does nothing to avoid obstacles like this but this can't be easily fixed.

ksa_land

11th December 2007, 19:49

At the oval the AI slows down too much on corner entry when they are not PRO. The lower the AI level the harder they slow down.

Sorry for my ***:shy:*** english.

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 19:53

AI drivers with XRRs are getting drive-through penalties for speeding in the pits on Westhill (standard direction). FXR and FZR drivers seem to be able to pit fine, but the XRR drivers pit for fuel and get a penalty. When they enter the pits to serve the penalty they are speeding and get penalized again, ad infinitum.

X-Ter

11th December 2007, 19:56

FXR - Aston North - Turn 8 - 9

AI have huge troubles coping with that corner.

--- Edit ---
XRR also have a lot of toruble in the exact same spot, while the FZR goes trough just fine. All AI's where using the Race S setup.

Tommy

11th December 2007, 20:28

That is not the behavior that I've seen. I ran multiple races yesterday with AI drivers. During at least two races where compulsory pit was turned off, the AI drivers DID pit for fuel. The did not pit for damage or tires, and they did not pit during timed races (1+ hour), but they did stop during long races for fuel. The problem is that they all stop on the same lap and crash each other out in the pits.

I didnt have time to test it on endurance race, but what i meant is: i start race with 4 laps so they have ~3laps of fuel, then set /laps 30

and watch them pit every 3 laps to test... well they dont do it when compulsary pitstop is off :( but when its on, they pit for fuel, tires AND damage - the way it should be.

Cue-Ball

11th December 2007, 20:33

I didnt have time to test it on endurance race, but what i meant is: i start race with 4 laps so they have ~3laps of fuel, then set /laps 30

and watch them pit every 3 laps to test... well they dont do it when compulsary pitstop is off :( but when its on, they pit for fuel, tires AND damage - the way it should be.That sounds like another problem where the AI does not realize that the number of laps for the race has changed. It seems as though they determine the number of laps when they first enter the game, but that they are not updated when you manually increase the number of laps.

SpikeyMarcoD

11th December 2007, 22:20

Problem with pit chaos seems to be that the winner wants to turn into the first box instead of the last. The second car cant brake in time etc. etc.

STenyaK

11th December 2007, 22:31

1- AI does not take into account car in front when in pitlane, only in raceline.

2- During one of those huge pit-in messes at mid-race, this car "Monica" was still refuelling when the 2 cars behind her tried to get out of the pitlane, but crashed into her and pushed her out to the raceline for a while.
"Monica" was still applying brakes and intermitently apparently still refueling.
Here's a picture of it (yellow car just managed to leave monica aside):

SpikeyMarcoD

11th December 2007, 22:37

Ahum.... Christine anywhere? I remember she liked to mess stuff up also.

STenyaK

11th December 2007, 23:02

Ahum.... Christine anywhere? I remember she liked to mess stuff up also.
None of my close friends is named Christine, so no AI for her :-)

Schizo

12th December 2007, 00:06

Some testing i did

-AI won't pit in timed races
-AI is often going too fast entering pits
-AI pitting on same lap
-AI is racing with minimal pitstops (variable stints looks more realistic to me)
-AI is crashing on multiple pitstops
-No tyre change / damage repair using pitstops
-AI only pitting for fuel, keeps driving when heavy damage/leak tyres

legoflamb

12th December 2007, 00:19

It seem the AI Slam on the breaks when I pass.

Edit: also the ai seem to have to pit for short races. when making the replay I set it to 3 laps and all the AI pit in the first lap, so I set it to 6 laps, still it sayed "fuel 7% - (1 stint)". I assume that means for the AI to pit.

I appologise for the strange sentence structure(was in a hurry).

SPR here:

Cue-Ball

12th December 2007, 00:35

I've done some more testing and am trying to figure out how the AI decide which pit stall to use. I had three FZRs running on Aston (Nat'l, i think). They pitted in around lap 40 or so. The first car into the pits pulled into one of earlier stalls (stall #8 or so). The second car drove past him and pulled into either the last or second to last stall. The third car drove in and, apparently, tried to park in the same stall as the previous car. He pushed the car in front completely 90* sideways in the pits, but luckily that car was able to get out okay. When the car that did the pushing (the third car of the three to enter the pits) tried to leave, he ended up driving across the grass and taking out the two cones at the end of the pits.

Damo74

12th December 2007, 05:07

AI also has no idea how to look after their clutch. If it happens to heat up, they will continue to mash the accelerator until the clutch melts.

SpikeyMarcoD

12th December 2007, 05:52

None of my close friends is named Christine, so no AI for her :-)

Be glad then .

The Very End

12th December 2007, 10:12

They work fine to me. They seems to brake and avoid me if I crash or overtake them, so they are smarter. They pit and are working fine, execpt after finish when they pit, but that isn`t important.

Lol, had a blast today, equipted AI with WE oval set, then I equipted bump draft set. Rofl, it was awesome, 30.50 we got xD

Mille Sabords

12th December 2007, 10:34

Hi! At work now so testing the AI's on their own.
What I've found so far:
Racing line and overall performance improved a lot! :)
AIs can overtake (I witnessed a few daring (suicidal?) moves in the braking zones) but AIs do not seem to use slipstream at all (still braking in the straights...)
AIs respond to yellow flags pretty well / avoid collisions (except in pits...)
AIs completely ignore blue flags
AIs pitting is around 70% good (the rest burn their clutch or fool around) Do AI pits always in the same box? I can not find a pattern but apparently their position in the race has no influence on the box.
AI's repeat the same mistake lap after lap (example, XFG+XRG @ SO chicane clipping wall after downhill straight each lap of the race) - no auto update of "ideal" racing line?
AIs that take a spin are out of the race, they heat their clutch recovering and destroy it shortly after by ignoring the temp raise.
Overall impressive improvements! For short races without pitstops these new AIs can be serious competition.
Many thanks

Lotesdelere

12th December 2007, 10:42

AIs completely ignore blue flags
True.
In fact they just ignore any other car behind or alongside to them.

That's one of the reasons why I would like to have a server option to disallow the use of AI's.

It's quite annoying to see people adding an AI into the middle of a crowded race, the result is often a mayhem.

orne

12th December 2007, 15:01

I'd like to add another trajectory problem not mentioned yet, in South City Chicane, the LX4s are hitting the wall on turn 3(? fast right turn after the back straight) causing them damage which in turn causes them to pit for damage every few laps.

Other than that, it's pretty impressive watching 50km races where there's no incidents, that was almost impossible to see with the previous AI.

sinbad

12th December 2007, 16:01

Anyone else find that at least half the cars (UF1, XFG and FZ5 most notably), and most of the road cars in general, are unable to negotiate the chicane when you run them on SO Chicane Route? They do a bit better on Classic and only gently hit the far barrier- the path (4) is different on Chicane Route, though. Much much closer to the right hand barrier, they hit it and get knocked across to the left and then crash into the far barrier hard. They don't learn.

shiny_red_cobra

12th December 2007, 16:47

Cue-Ball

12th December 2007, 16:51

I think it's been mentioned once, but the AI don't qualify properly. I set 20 FBMs at BL1 for 15 minutes of Qualifying and they all drove for 5 laps (around 6 minutes) and they all went to their pit garages (they didn't have a pit stop), and sat there for the remainder of the qualifying. What they should do is do a pit stop, then continue until qualifying is over.I've seen that same behavior, with AI cars running a few qualifying laps, then pitting. But I've also seen AI cars head out for qualifying and keep running until they were out of fuel. I was running two different tracks when I saw the different behavior, but I'm pretty sure that qualifying was set to 15 minutes in both cases.

Otaku

12th December 2007, 18:33

AI doesn't learn anymore right?

Cue-Ball

12th December 2007, 18:54

AI doesn't learn anymore right?I think the only person that knows the answer to that is Scawen.

xaotik

12th December 2007, 19:45

Not really a bug, just an ommision I guess - but AI players don't seem to react to stop and go penalties when applied to them via "/p_sg" while they do react to drive through when applied via "/p_dt".

EDIT: actually - this only applies in practice mode, just tried it in race mode and they do react

axus

12th December 2007, 19:55

More of a small improvement suggestion than a bug that shouldn't be that much work: the AI's braking technique is somewhat lacking, especially in the downforced cars. They try to stand fully on the brakes and the come off them and back on and back off and so on. You can see it in their braking trails on a set with slightly stronger brakes. If they could estimate how much they could press the brakes without locking based on current speed (downforce) and tyre condition they would easily find another half a second I reckon. :) Anyway, nothing major.

The Very End

13th December 2007, 07:29

Remember to have "AI use player setup" enabled, it might help.

axus

13th December 2007, 10:09

AI don't seem to be aware of grip loss due to punctures. An AI tried to take the corner at the end of the straight on Blackwood at full speed with the tyre condition showed below. It just went off the track and crashed.

EDIT: Didn't go into the pits either.

Hyperactive

13th December 2007, 10:59

NO bug reports in this post

Could the ai be even more faster? Another thing is that the ai are a bit slow off the line, in the starts. I guess the fastest method to start is still to rev up and drop the clutch so could the ai use this method as well.

axus

13th December 2007, 11:08

Blackout

13th December 2007, 12:12

Are AI trying to over correct wheel movement when they drive over kerbs? Or do they just have very flimsy hands with great strength but no resisting muscles? Because their steering and hands shake very violently and incredibly quickly to side to side when they drive over kerbs.

AS Cadet and the chicane braking on the second sector is a good place to demonstrate it, see the replay.

RedRiver

13th December 2007, 15:04

At Blackwood Rallycross track they crash into the barrier before they enter pits.

orne

13th December 2007, 15:20

The following cars(all with default hard track setup) hit the wall and get damaged at the South City Chicane Route turn 3:

- FXO, pits 5 times in a 17-lap race
- RB4, pits 3 times in a 17-lap race
- XRG, pits 3 times in a 17-lap race
- XFG, also hits the wall but it doesn't hit hard enough to need a pitstop

I think what might be causing those crashes is that corner being downhill and therefore they're not braking enough for it because the trajectory when hitting '4' is correct.

Cue-Ball

13th December 2007, 18:05

I'm not sure if this is planned to be addressed when the AI become more aware of human players, but it's an issue I saw last night so I wanted to mention it.

When returning to the pits after their cool down lap, the AI don't realize if there is a player in the stall. I raced 8 AI players and passed all but two. We all ran a cool down lap and returned to the pits. I went into the stall after the first two AI guys, and then the next car that came into the pits tried to fit into the same stall, pushing me out the back. This was on South City, but I'd imagine the behavior is the same everywhere.

That said, I really, really like that the AI run a lap then pit. It prevents a massive pile-up at the finish line and teaches good race etiquette to newbies.

shiny_red_cobra

13th December 2007, 19:39

Well, technically, every player or AI is assigned a unique pit garage right? So you shouldn't go into theirs, you should go int your own.

But I do agree that the AI has to be more aware of other players, and even each other, they shouldn't be bumping themselves around.

Shotglass

13th December 2007, 19:39

oddly enough they seem to be very aware of other ais around them ... in fact so much that they step on the brakes on the bl backstraight when theyre in the tow of another ai in front of them

Cue-Ball

13th December 2007, 19:47

Well, technically, every player or AI is assigned a unique pit garage right? So you shouldn't go into theirs, you should go int your own.How are we supposed to know what garage is assigned to us if there's no qualifying enabled on the server, since you start on the grid and not in the pits.

Also, even if you DO start in the pits, the stalls all look the same and the numbering is quite difficult to see on your way out.

I'll have to run a test and check, because I'm fairly certain that the AI don't exit, pit, and return to the same stall throughout a race. It doesn't seem to be consistent.

Edit: Okay, I've done some testing on this, and here are the results I've seen. AI cars, after the race, enter the pit stall that corresponds to their number. ie: AI1 will stop in the first stall, AI2 in the second, and so forth. For some reason, the later AI cars have a hard time getting into their stalls regardless of their finishing order. For instance, on a race around SO Classic with 8 AI LX4s, cars 1-5 successfully entered a stall after the race, but cars 6, 7, and 8 all failed and did a drive through of the pits, stopping at the end of pit late. Car #7 tried to enter the stall, but hit the wall. He then backed up (hitting the wall behind him), then finally gave up and exited pit lane, plowing into the other two cars that were already sitting at the end.

The pits that the cars use for refueling do not seem to correspond to the car number, the position in the race, or anything else that I can determine. In the race I tried, AI#1 who was running in first place pitted in the 9th pit box (out of 16 boxes total). AI#2, running in second place, pitted in the 12th pit box. AI#7, running in 6th place, pitted in box #5. This is made even more complex by the fact that two stalls share one pit spot. For instance, South City has 16 places to pit, but 32 stalls/garages. Because all of the AI pit at the same time, there are not enough pit spaces for them all. I haven't tried running with >16 cars yet, but I'm going to give that a try. I'm sure it's going to cause havoc.

In essence, it seems like the AI need to be made aware of which pit box is "theirs", and whether or not the car they share it with is already there. This is quite complex, because the car they share it with is likely to be a human player, not another AI car. I'm actually surprised that this hasn't caused more problems in the past, given that we can have more people on a server than there are available pit stalls. On short races with forced pit stops, I can easily see people coming into the pits only to find that there are no open stalls. Something that makes this even more complex is that at least some of the tracks do not have numbered stalls or pit areas. How someone would be expected to know which pit box was theirs, with no number, no markings, no pit crew, etc. is beyond me.

I really, really would love to see LFS make pitting more realistic, but there are obviously several issues that will have to be addressed before that can happen.

sanfen

13th December 2007, 20:01

Firstly, thank you to give us the amazing fast AI.
However, I found 2 problems.

I only race with them in BL1. Against 5 PRO AI

1. When they scrach the other on the side, one of them who are not in the racing line will brake.
This is strange, what we usually do for that is ... nothing.
Maybe in the corner, when two cars collide each other on the side. We may brake to create the line for two racers in the corner. But it is ridiculous. Maybe you can set this to some less throttle.

2.I met a strange crash at me. I can't understand that in anyway. He just use his tail crashing my front end and ... he's out...

And... The AI in X31 is not as fast as X30 anymore, is that programmed to make the race more competitive? Slowing the car in front of you down?

MaKaKaZo

13th December 2007, 22:06

I was doing some AI testing in chicane route with the FBM. My intention was to check how many laps the tires would last after totally wearing off. This is what happened:

- The AI got a flat tire at the beginning of the second sector of lap 59 (out of 88, which the AI decided to do on only one stint with 100% fuel tank). He perfectly had the opportunity to pit in that lap, but after the hairpin he decided not to and went on to do a whole lap with the flat tire.

- Then on lap 60 he came in to change tires and got a drive-through penalty because he didn't calculate well how the flat tire would affect the braking. At the pitstop he changed all 4 tires while just changing the front ones maybe would have been enough to end the race (I guess they don't know about tire wear percentage yet).

- On lap 61 he came in again to complete the drive-through and he did it correctly. This is why I guess that the problem with the earlier penalty he received was the flat tire, because on normal conditions he did brake enough not to surpass the limit.

I have the replay but it's 1.7 MB compressed and don't think it will be of any help as the post describes pretty much everything.

the_angry_angel

13th December 2007, 22:42

I've not spotted this one yet, so here goes.

Any AI driver will stall on the drag strip. Once they restart their engine they start going around in circles! Replay attached.

Xmods6879

14th December 2007, 02:16

The same thing happened to me.

word.

14th December 2007, 05:37

same here. I think this started since X31

eblise

14th December 2007, 07:53

My poor English,Below are the Google translation:schwitz:
LFS X31
I and 3 AI race three laps and save replay,after i look replay, restart race by SHIFT + R, one AI can't move.When i see this replay again, replay is mistakes.
:schwitz::schwitz:

dev

14th December 2007, 08:16

I've not spotted this one yet, so here goes.

Any AI driver will stall on the drag strip. Once they restart their engine they start going around in circles! Replay attached.

I just tested this, and I can't reproduce it with any car...

EDIT: I just noticed that i was using X30... in X31 it's happening just like in the replay

HeerBommel

14th December 2007, 11:34

I can't control the AI's fuel quantity anymore in patch X31.With patch X30 I started a 100 laps race with 5% fuel and 5% refuel so the AI' have to pit every 4 - 5 laps, but now with patch X31 I started the same race 100 laps, 5% fuel and 5% refuel, but the AI's started with full fueltank (100%).

Mille Sabords

14th December 2007, 13:16

Hi,
HeerBommel: The AI in patch 31 seem to determine a pitting startegy based on fuel consumption, as it is different for each car but not affected by setup.
However they are not (well, do not seem to) readjust the strategy when they have to pit for damage (and they do pit and repair whatever your choice is).
I just ran a 20 lap race with XFGs and XRGs full grid on SO6, various setups including 2 roadgoing XRGs.
These to had to pit for damage (5 pitstops) and finished the race with 45% fuel in tank...
However the XFGs with proper race sets finished with approx 5% in tank, 1 pitstop as specified (mustpit on).
The .knw is no longer AI based nor updated after a race, so I assume they do not learn any more. That is unfortunate for XRG AIs as they do not seem to cope well with the highspeed downhill braking (hit wall each lap :)). Hard life ahead!
AIs keep tyres green and good when given a proper set, and take tyre temp in account is seems! Excellent!

Venus

14th December 2007, 14:18

Few problems with AI.

Track AS2, car Fox, 60 laps

First race, all cars ended up stuck in the two sand traps at the final corner on AS2.
Second Race. Half the cars stuck in the same traps, the other half burnt out their
clutches on track. In both races (2 pit stops), most seems to handle the pit ok, though there were some crashing into each other trying to get into garage. (Maybe it'd be better if they just stayed on their pit, rather than enter garage (easier fix). Not sure if they are faster on this track or not yet. They seem slower. They used to mid 102s, now they are doing 103-104s, with little improvement. Most did roughly 55 laps.

SO6 FMB they seem pretty quick there (at least compared to current avg human times on servers) though clutch problems as usual same with pit problems.

AS3 FXR - well first few laps they all crashed taking final chicane, but they finally learnt it - big improvement - they now also use the correct gear - big improvement. Same clutch n pit problems though.

That's the end of those I've tested. Still not happy with new rev limit and the clutch is way too sensistive to overheated. I deliberately burnt out a clutch once. That was in a normal car, and it took alot longer than this, a race clutch should be alot better than normal cars clutch.

Not Happy

CELTIC100

14th December 2007, 14:42

I ran a test race in the FXR Pro setting 12 Car Race - 10 laps of AS6R mandatory pit ON starting from back of grid :) . When overtaking Ai as I get ahead they slam on the brakes and drop back 50m (Yeilding ? ) and then on lap 7 80% of the cars pitted with myself, I was leading and pulled into my stall only to be shunted out of it by an Ai taking my place :D the race went pretty well considering the other cars pitted early due to crashes ect. This was the first race I had run them My best lap was a 2:39 and the Ai Best lap was 2:45

I won by a sec and a half as I had to do a drive through :D

Venus

14th December 2007, 15:07

If the AI on as3 fzr miss their pit due to flat tyres, they'll abort and head back out onto the track again, instead of just picking the next pit box. That's with R2 tyres.

As for balance, I'm running a 50 lapper same track with 9 ai, all GTR car types for each set of 3 AI. After qualifying, 1 AI was 1 sec faster than rest, the FZR still seems to dominiate, with the FXR coming last (1.5 seconds behind FZR & XRR). I'll post results of race times. The FZR all blew their tyres, and all kept getting drive throughs, which prevented them from pitting, as they just did the drive thru, and everytime they went into pit, they got drive thru. Definitely need work on them controlling pit speed on entry when damaged.

One other thing about the AI's agressiveness. I noticed if you brake properly into corner when they do, and hit apex, they tend not to be able to tap you. (braking into corner entry I mean).

Yeh race is finished... that's the gap between FZR and FXR (1.5s). The XRR is between them.

Ven

Mille Sabords

14th December 2007, 15:25

I tried a few 5 lap races with mixed XFG XRG and various setups, mustpit on, on SO6.
Quick AI is much better than pro for XRG, and quick XFG AI's still get overall better time than pros because they do not get damage.
XRG pro laptime 1:26.6 best
XRG quick laptime 1:27.4 best but still 20second better race time over 5 laps + pit. And without forced pits the XRG pros still have to go repair.
Apart from that good scaling from newbie to quick.

shim

14th December 2007, 16:04

problem with AI on FE Club

- AI after a single lap race all pit and crash into each other, half the field goes back onto the track and stall their engines.. tested with full grid and was able to reproduce multiple times

Venus

14th December 2007, 16:55

In a long race (50L) on AS3 with fxr, fzr and xrr, both the fzr and xrr keep blowing tyres and getting stuck in sand. 6 cars were in sand with flats at one point, of which 2 got out. One pitted and changed tyres... 3 others going around track with flat tyres would not pit, and kept going off. Seems there's a problem with them knowing a flat tyre means pit.

One quick solution to that is a global force pit by the player (ie hit enter) but thats pretty rough way to do it. Definitely need more work.

On a side issue, since R2 tyres go flat after 15 laps with AI FZR, the R3's after 50 laps only heat up the inside. The inside temp was 90, the outside was 60. Could probably be fixed in setup so not really an issue. The XRR was even worse, the FXR was just cold. As I said, setup issue methinx.

None of the circulating cars blew a clutch, except for those stuck in sand. (FZR & XRR).

tristancliffe

14th December 2007, 17:06

:hihi:Not Happy

Shotglass

14th December 2007, 17:23

DrDNA

14th December 2007, 19:21

BF1's @ KY GP Rev always suffer casualties through T1 and into the next cluster of corners on the first lap of a race. What seems to happen is two of them will end up side-by-side going into the first corner and the outside driver will simply go wide onto the grass, sometimes rejoining the track moments later to take out other racers. I've tried with a full grid, as well as smaller grids down to around 10 AI and the problem is obviously worse with more AI. I've also tried varying fuel loads (for the heck of it) and that didn't change things.

This corner was also an issue with the AI prior to the latest test patches, but hopefully improving their situational awareness will solve a lot of these problems.

Lotesdelere

14th December 2007, 20:49

Any AI driver will stall on the drag strip. Once they restart their engine they start going around in circles! Replay attached.
AIDragStalling.spr
LOL! :D

Replay of the year IMO :thumb:

Sorry for OT but I couldn't resist :)

Franek_PL

15th December 2007, 11:28

LX4 are hitting the wall on last jump on BL2, and burn the clutch after 3 laps.

HeerBommel

15th December 2007, 13:23

I started a race with 7 AI drivers and myself, 20 laps XFG, BL, after 6 laps 2 of the AI's couldn't drive anymore because of burned clutches.
I burned my clutch after 4 laps...:shrug:

Maybe the burned clutches has something to do with the pitstop, where some AI's hit each other, they made their pitstop all in the same lap, maybe this should be more random

AndreABG

15th December 2007, 13:44

when u spin an AI, they overheat there clutch when accelarating from 0mph - what is "normal", but they don't go carefuly with it afterwards, so they burn it all away...

SpikeyMarcoD

15th December 2007, 13:46

It seems 3/4 of the ai field messes up the oval KY1 in my attempts so far. Big smokes and spinning ais.

EDIT: was with FZRs
EDIT2: after using a GT2 (handicap) set the ais use no handicaps, they only use handicaps if i give them my set

richukss

15th December 2007, 18:19

Hello!
There is a bug , with AI drivers , watch a replay.
Small description - On ''8 Lane Drag'' AI with new formula drives backward.
P.S My 1st post , sorry if something is wrong :shrug: , and sorry for my bad english.
P.P.S Sorry if someone already posted this bug.

orne

15th December 2007, 19:17

Perhaps forcing the AI to pit when a tire's pressure reaches a critical level would help reduce these punctures.

Also I noticed that some of those punctures are caused by the aggressive braking technique they use. Comparing with my driving, I find that they heat up the outside tire alot less than me, however, because of the braking, they lock up the inside causing it to heat more than when I'm driving.

The AI is particularly fast in South City Chicane with the FBM, I did a race with them and just couldn't keep up, it got worse in the final laps when my left front was hot and theirs was just fine.

SpikeyMarcoD

16th December 2007, 10:27

Did a rally X green on Fern bay (FE6?) and the ais did not ebter pits after race. They just did another lap and stopped in first corner.

What do they do on tracks without pit SO2/SO3? hm gonna find out

EDIT they do another lap and crash
EDIT2 on blackwood rally they mess up pitlane entry after race. One slides a bit and the one after knocks em over.
EDIT3 after races some ais go back on track after having been in pits. also weird.

Scawen

16th December 2007, 12:30

AI´s can´t drive the LX6/RAC/FZ50 on the rallytracks (BL2/FE5) anymore.

@they continue their pitstops outside the pits. Se att.files.Do you know how this happened? Because normally the pit stop works correctly.

I just want to know how they can get into that sutuation where they are driving around and it still says "refuelling" over their car.

SpikeyMarcoD

16th December 2007, 14:42

The faster cars TBOs and BL2 are not a good match in the 2nd corner. they slide to outside of track constantly, dont learn.

On FE green rally X after race cars dont come in pit.

Loving racing them :D if they just see me if i am not on ideal line and sometimes dont give up easily to avoid contact i am even happier

haelje

16th December 2007, 15:31

dont know if still reported: in the attached replay is a AI only race. after the start there were some crashed and while recovering from that "Rosberg" overheats his clutch. after that is not working anymore he stand on the backstraight trying to get a gear in, but don't move. so he stays on a dangerous place on track.

another thing i recognized: while the race i pressed "2" to store the replay and after i gave a name the replay instantly begin to playback, but the race was still running ?

here is the link to the spr-replay file: http://www.haelje.de/downloads/AIrace.zip

troy

16th December 2007, 15:36

test patch X32

AI cant take the fast lefthander after the long bridge with LX6 on FE4R

R.Kolz

16th December 2007, 15:43

Do you know how this happened? Because normally the pit stop works correctly.

I just want to know how they can get into that sutuation where they are driving around and it still says "refuelling" over their car.

Looks to me like it happens whenever bots are pushed out of their pitboxes before having finished their repairs/refuelling. In this case it´s the AI16.

Worth a look the bot "Torben Jensen" as well a) his pitstop and especially b) as he has entered the pits for his 30 sec. penalty and then all of sudden stops his car.

Finally, the stats rapport "GCBlip" on bots.

Here the replay of it and its statistics:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4CEC5TK2

axus

16th December 2007, 15:55

in X32, AI still give themselves quite a shunt into the far wall at in the right hander off the highway on SO4r/5r/6 in some cars. LX4 and LX6 definitely. Considering that, probably the all the TBO road cars too.

sinbad

16th December 2007, 15:59

I consider this a bug, so I'll post it here. Posting again in case AI path regeneration was supposed to have sorted these things out.

None of the road cars except for TBO can negotiate the South City Chicane Route- Reverse chicane anything like satisfactorily. XFR can't either, and I haven't looked at all the other race cars.
Start a race with a few LXs, FZs, Racs, XFGs and UF1s. They don't appear to get any better either.

benjie.13

16th December 2007, 16:11

The AI are still going too fast into the pitlane on X32. This is on the KY Oval.

Scawen

16th December 2007, 17:13

The AI are still going too fast into the pitlane on X32. This is on the KY Oval.Which cars? Because I tested the oval and it was ok. It will just save me a lot of testing if you tell me which cars don't slow down in time.

PLAYLIFE

16th December 2007, 17:18

You know some cars exceed the speed limit because other cars are tailgating down the pit entrance (I mean they are touching the car in front and pushing it). For example I did a race in SO Classic and FZ5 was followed into pits by two RAC. The two RAC pushed the FZ5 over the pit entry line and made it have a drive through.

xaotik

16th December 2007, 17:46

The AI now pit when in practice mode if they need to refuel, however they change tyres and repair damage (if there's need to) but they do not refuel.

germanpio

16th December 2007, 18:32

Which cars? Because I tested the oval and it was ok. It will just save me a lot of testing if you tell me which cars don't slow down in time.

BF1 everytime, almost the same for FO8. Big GTRs from time to time. (KY1)
Isn't it possible that they do not cross the thick white line in the turn and stay inside the yellow line?

edit: This also applies to KY2!!

StewartFisher

16th December 2007, 18:39

Which cars? Because I tested the oval and it was ok. It will just save me a lot of testing if you tell me which cars don't slow down in time.Seems to be the faster cars (i.e. GTR and Formula). I've attached a couple of replays of AI cars at KY Oval. The BF1s don't slow down in time and get penalties. The UF1s do slow down in time but they all miss their pit boxes! A couple of the UF1s also miss their garages at the end of the race because they collide.

yankman

16th December 2007, 18:51

I don't know if it is really is a bug, but I think there is need for a workarround.

An AI car was pushed away while pitting and hit the brakes even when leaving the pits. Have a look at R2-D2 in lap 5.

Cue-Ball

16th December 2007, 20:53

I just want to say what a massive, massive improvement the new AI is. They stay on track, they pit properly, they account fuel, etc. Best of all, I can really see the difference between the Newbie and Pro levels now. Before they ran very similar times, but now the Newbie level should be good enough for beginners to keep up and pass, while the Pro level should be tough to beat, even for veteran players. Huge, huge improvement overall.

Hell, I dare say that now the AI players are faster and hold better lines than most of the humans I've played against. :thumb:

AndroidXP

16th December 2007, 21:06

JTbo

16th December 2007, 21:11

Phew 5 pages, someone please yell if this has been already filed in, ok?

Track = BL2
Car = XFG
Setup = Default rally cross, I had 28% fuel set and 15% on pitstop
Race 10 laps, no qual, no wind
11 AI cars, all use player setup
LFS version X32

AI cars seemed to pit at lap 5 because no fuel, AI 1 decided to make a pitstop at lap 9 too.

Pitting is chaos, entry is too aggressive, cars almost do spin, they ram to each other on pits and generally their behaviour on pit entry is bit of a problem.

Here is zipped replay (http://jtbo.pp.fi/tiedostot/lfs/BL2.zip), look AI 1 lap 5.

Second problem is that AI cars tend to warm up their clutches on normal driving, so could be that 20 laps is bit of challenge already.
I just made test race of 20 laps with 11 AI cars, they never did finished the race.
Also I realised that of course my fuel settings have nothing to do how much fuel AI takes :D

Widdowmaker

16th December 2007, 21:59

Which cars? Because I tested the oval and it was ok. It will just save me a lot of testing if you tell me which cars don't slow down in time.

FZR still speeds in pit lane on X32 :nod:

Ahhh - just checked properly - with damage - failed to brake in time - with no damage slows down just fine...... Call of the troops

Only real problem I do have there is that the AI take to the pit lane in the middle of the bend - and should really join before the solid white line.

word.

16th December 2007, 22:27

Which cars? Because I tested the oval and it was ok. It will just save me a lot of testing if you tell me which cars don't slow down in time.
It depends on the setup, I tested with BF1 using R4s on the front, and it seems that the AI doesn't slow down in time because they lock up the front tyres.

-edit- this seems to be 99% fixed in X32 :tilt:

Cue-Ball

16th December 2007, 22:29

One thing I just found out is that the AI likes to change the line for overtaking or evading someone extremely quickly. Had a little XFR AI race a few minutes ago and an AI car approached from behind after I had screwed up a corner. I saw it coming closer and closer in the rear view mirror, almost touching, then it suddenly yanked to the right and promptly spun off the track :Looking_aI've seen this same behavior. The worst part about it is that even with doing that quick change of line, they still fail to make the pass about 99% of the time. I think that the "passing" code is more designed for cars of different classes where the faster car is overtaking the slower car with a significant speed difference. In cars of similar speeds, rarely is there any passing in the game. The passing that is there seems to be mostly from one AI bumping the other just before a turn, which gives just enough room to get by. It would be nice to see a little more variation or, if possible, have the AI make a mistake every once in a while (enter a corner slightly too hot, brake just a little too much, etc). That would allow for a lot more variety and passing in the races.

That said, the AI are 100X better now than they were in Patch X.

Moonclaw

17th December 2007, 03:12

If an AI is given a stop and go penalty by an admin, but removed before the car enters pitlane the AI will still sit for 10 seconds, even if the pit stop was completed in 2.

ps. I realize this is not a request thread, but a command for AI pitting would be handy (f.ex. /aipit [name]).

Shotglass

17th December 2007, 03:26

the ais spin a lot if they try to enter the fe club pitlane with a bf1

PLAYAPIMP

17th December 2007, 04:04

if it has been posted sorry
Track:BL1R
Car:XRR
2nd Chicane right before last corner when they try to go over it they get on 2 wheels and then just flip

LupusC

17th December 2007, 10:31

SO Sprint2 Single Player. After 4 Rounds of qualification the AI drivers are scattered around the track.They do not drive back into pits

MarioX

17th December 2007, 10:35

SO3 (like SO2) being a sprint track, the pitlane isn't really functional, so it 's probably supposed to be like that...

Shotglass

17th December 2007, 12:47

On problem I´ve noticed during our AI racing sessions was that the AI doesnt recalculate the pitstop if they start from the pits a few laps behind the leader (with mustpit on).
What happens is they still time it at half of the _full_ race distance, which in case the leaders are already past the half distance mark, causes them to get a disqualification for not pitting at all or pitting on the last lap.

So it should be (laps_max - laps_leader)/2 instead of laps_max/2

Venus

17th December 2007, 14:17

Another problem with the race tests I did, was an AI passing another AI, the first one would sometimes just brake, even on a straight or anywhere really. Thought that very odd.

agm_ultimatex

17th December 2007, 15:36

I just did a race on the 8 lane drag with 7 AI, I was the only one to finish. The AI were driving around the start line, some didnt even move. some drove forward a bit, then parked on the side.http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=62914758lr3.jpg

benjie.13

17th December 2007, 15:53

It's the BF1, Scawen.

boydverbeek

17th December 2007, 18:02

basicly in all pits on all tracks with all cars they go to fast, they drive at a surten speed towards the pits and then brake for there lifes to reach 80 km.
I did not test it with all cars to be honest, and not on all tracks, but i think all would be the same if they have enough braking power.
The problem is there either to close to eachother when they enter the pits or there braking to hard, i think scawen would have a easy awnser for this.

Il show you...

this screenshot is from 5 BF1's driving one lap and then pitting, all im showing is the end result.
I thought first it was becuase of the brakes becuase ai's usaully are pretty much brain dead, but suprisingly they all did there calculations.

http://img198.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=13290_bf1_122_357lo.JPG

In the picture there is just 1 ai saying it was going to fast in the pits, but thats the fualt of ai 1, if he dint brakes to hard the front wheels of ai 2 werent of the ground.
I mean if i was between those 5 something more horrible would have happened, give us some space between the ai's?.

i got more...

So i went on with my thoery and stupidly think that scawen just testet with the defualt sets since we can change the set's of the ai's (Sorry Scawen), but i gues im the idiot becuase my thoery was wrong.
Once they crossed the pit line i was surised by the result, becuase they just did the same i mean the same thing.

http://img149.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=13986_bf1_2_122_1164lo.JPG

i mean comon man you guys got brakes now but they still make the same mistake, i was hoping you 5 could show some results.

i got more...

so now im gonna show you how they cross the pit line.

http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=14546_bf1_3_122_733lo.JPG

very funny becuase they brake when they pass the speed limit sign, they must have a heavy right foot.:D

I hope this can help you scawen in the development of the AI drivers, let us know if this is the right way to report the bugs.

AndroidXP

17th December 2007, 18:21

You should try it again in X33 ;)

xaotik

17th December 2007, 18:45

Although in the pits they're kinda OK - which is what X33 addressed. There's not much difference right before the pits - perhaps they don't take in account the fact that they got reduced downforce when they're close behind another car or something. The penalty issued in the screenshot was because of getting rear-ended. Almost the entire field but the last AI got one.

boydverbeek

17th December 2007, 18:45

lol he released a new patch when i make my nice post :(

wel tested it again and same things happen, they might be less agressive now but they still manage to crash eachother.
I think you should put more distance between the ai's when they make the return to the pits, this most likely wil fix the problem in pitting.
If not then let the ai's pit in the last pit not the first, this seem to be a problem to.

Inouva

17th December 2007, 20:02

well this is mi first report , i put 5 ai in We R

in one S curve al ai crash

see replay
44572

Regards Inouva
________
SUZUKI EQUATOR HISTORY (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_Equator)

JTbo

17th December 2007, 20:09

w126

17th December 2007, 21:15

I watched some short (7 laps) AI races in 3 slowest cars on all rallycross configurations, with X33 version. They all used default rallycross setups.

BL2:
- AI make violent turns at the entry to the pits (their path is just strange), as a result they almost lose control and crash sometimes.
- AI in XFG very easily damage their suspension on the jumps. They go into the pits to repair it even when it seems they could continue and finish the short race.

BL2R:
- Suspension damage in XFG, similar to BL2 situation.
- AI in XRG and XFG (less frequently) tend to hit the inside wall of T1.

FE5 and FE5R:
OK

FE6 and FE6R:
- Their behaviour after the race (I've seen it reported before) is probably due to lack of proper garages.

All configurations:
- They sometimes stop after the race but before reaching the pits. I'm not sure if it is caused by running out of fuel. If that's the case then maybe fuel calculations are too optimistic for gravel driving.
- AI are relatively not as quick as they are now on all-tarmac tracks. I guess it's not a bug though. :)

dungbeetle

17th December 2007, 23:05

Patch X33

I'm getting AIs that occasionally run out of fuel and burn out their clutches, but before I report anything here, I need to know how the whole pitstop/refuelling/resetting thing works in case it's my fault! :)

OK

When it's me and several bots racing together (as opposed to testing with just the bots running on their own):

1. Is there a way to force the AI cars to start with a certain amount of fuel before a race?
2. Is the amount of fuel the AI starts with influenced in any way by the amount of fuel I start with, and in particular, when I select that the AI should use the same setup as me?
3. Presumably I can only force one pitstop on the AI - any others would be down to them as and when they see fit?
4. When choosing a fuel/pitstop strategy, will all the bots have the same strategy, or might they vary at all? (They all seem to pit on the same lap at the moment).
5. If I allow resets, are the bots supposed to reset themselves when, for example, they burn their clutches out?

Any advice gratefully received. :)

Cheers
/d

Cue-Ball

17th December 2007, 23:23

1. Is there a way to force the AI cars to start with a certain amount of fuel before a race?Sorta. You can't choose how much fuel the AI cars start with, but you can make them start with less than they normally would use. Set the race length for, say, 5 laps. Start the race. Then change the race length manually using [/laps 20]. That should work. Though, you have to run a LOT of laps before the AI would have to pit more than once, so it's probably easier to just turn on the pit stop requirement.

2. Is the amount of fuel the AI starts with influenced in any way by the amount of fuel I start with, and in particular, when I select that the AI should use the same setup as me?No. The AI uses your setup, but the amount of fuel in your tank is independent from the rest of the parameters in car setup. Not just for AI, but for your car as well. No matter what setup you load, your fuel level will only change if you do it by hand.

3. Presumably I can only force one pitstop on the AI - any others would be down to them as and when they see fit?You can "force" more than one pit stop by running a LOOOOOONG race, but that's about it. From my experience, you have to run 100 laps or more before any car would have to run more than 2 stints. Even then, the FZR is the only car I've found that uses enough. I haven't tested the two big formula cars though.
4. When choosing a fuel/pitstop strategy, will all the bots have the same strategy, or might they vary at all? (They all seem to pit on the same lap at the moment).Again, I've run a lot of AI races in the past week and AI always pit at the same time, assuming they are in the same model car. But if you run two different cars (the XRR and FZR, for instance) they will pit at different times due to differing fuel uses. But ONLY if they are pitting for fuel, and not pitting to satisfy a "must pit" requirement. Also, only if the race is long enough that fuel consumption is relavent to the race (ie: 50+ laps on the long tracks)

JTbo

17th December 2007, 23:28

AI cars pit 2-3 times (I have not set anything regards AI) at BL2 on 20 lap race, that is if they manage to get that far, I think once one AI has finished in my testing, 16-18 laps typically best achievement, sometimes they fail on first pitstop as they crash on pit entry and burn their clutch there.

It might work better on other tracks, but on BL2 it is not working too well, it is impossible to have 20 lap race against them, I feel.

Misko

18th December 2007, 00:59

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 01:18

Just a note that real rallycross races are no longer than 4 laps. It's an event with lot of heats, qualifying and eliminations of 3 laps, then finals of 4 laps (exact distance is set in FIA regulations in kms, and for BL2 it turns out to be 3 and 4 laps). Of course, there are never any pitstops there. So, even with sensitive clutch, rallyx is still fine both for humans and AIs if we keep it real. :)While that may be true, it doesn't really address the underlying issue that clutch behavior is unrealistic and that some cars are massively handicapped because of it.

dungbeetle

18th December 2007, 01:22

Patch X33 ... I need to know how the whole pitstop/refuelling/resetting thing works ...

Many thanks for the replies guys.

Much appreciated. :thumbsup:

Cheers
/d :)

dawesdust_12

18th December 2007, 03:42

At SO Classic, with BF1's, the AI's have pretty severe issues on any setup / default setups, driving into walls on exit of T1, and the start is pretty bad too.
At Aston Grand Prix, the AI's (XRT, FXO and RB4 I tested) have seemingly huge issues with keeping the optimum line, swerving all over, especially in traffic
At Aston GP, RB4's when getting passed, slow down considerably (as if approaching yellow flag situation), causing easy pass + incident behind, particularly in traffic.
At Aston GP, AI's with punctured tyres overshoot a pitstall (and gain DT penalty on entrance), then pull out of pits as if it was repaired. (Tested on TBO AI's, but have witnessed it in isolated cases with other GTR cars)
XRT AI's seem very bad with threshold braking, and lock their tyres up very often, they are the only RWD car that I've seen exhibit this behaviour.

The main issue with the AI's with punctures though, is that they continue to have standard braking points, maybe those AI's should go to a "50% line", where they are super cautious, where all braking points and stuff are overdone, just to ensure they get there safe, because the AI enduros I've ran, it's been the FXO and RB4 which finish, where as the XRT absolutely kills its tyres, then can't change them, because when it comes in, it gets a DT, then pulling into stall, overshoots then leaves, and rinse and repeat. Maybe another alternative is that if it overshoots, it uses a bit of logic and either reverses if it's clear, or pulls forward into another stall?

Just reporting what I've seen here watching an AI race, which I've done nearly every night since the initial X30 series of patches.

Edit: Most cars (watch a full field of AI's from the rear of the grid) at SO1, have issues off of the start also, one of the cars is forced to back off, which then creates a nice little accident, same with slow starting FXO's on all tracks, they create accidents because of the inability for them to get off the line..

Damo74

18th December 2007, 07:20

Inouva

18th December 2007, 07:30

OK, for all you hard at work AI testers, here is a little break for you. Just a quick minute out of your lives, have a bit of a laugh. Just a quick vid on the shortlived draglane bug.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=6qN7GulxeS4

I call it - The Dance of the UF1000

HAHAHHAHA i know this is a serious post but

OMG ROLF!
________
Falcon (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Falcon)

SpikeyMarcoD

18th December 2007, 07:46

AIs dont always use your set, since that is an option in the menus.

Lotesdelere

18th December 2007, 07:52

At Aston Grand Prix, the AI's (XRT, FXO and RB4 I tested) have seemingly huge issues with keeping the optimum line, swerving all over
I've noticed the same swerving issue at the end of the straight of BL1R with the BF1.

dawesdust_12

18th December 2007, 08:04

It's not high speed swerving though, it's them changing what line they wish to take (pass or normal), but they do it very very quickly, and causes them to spin out, or get into situations where they end up braking because there's a car within 2 lightyears of the nose of their car.

JTbo

18th December 2007, 09:56

Just a note that real rallycross races are no longer than 4 laps. It's an event with lot of heats, qualifying and eliminations of 3 laps, then finals of 4 laps (exact distance is set in FIA regulations in kms, and for BL2 it turns out to be 3 and 4 laps). Of course, there are never any pitstops there. So, even with sensitive clutch, rallyx is still fine both for humans and AIs if we keep it real. :)

Still I can drive lot harder with XRG than XFG, which kind of spoils mixed class racing there even if we keep it real.

However I have been in league races where we had 25 laps there so LFS is bit different to reality in this matter.

Training with AI is impossible also currently for such longer races.

Scawen

18th December 2007, 11:06

mcgas001

18th December 2007, 11:10

traxxion

18th December 2007, 12:26

... The focus so far has been their speed and racing reliability...
This has triggered me to post here. Been trying some practise races with AI XF GTR's on South City Classic and Blackwood Grand Prix reversed. On both tracks the AI's - set to Pro level - were about 3 seconds slower than me, and not improving much over the length of a couple of 15 lap races.

Now I know I'm seriously, insanely, superduper fast (:tilt:).. but 3 seconds over 1 minute-ish laps on pro level makes me think their speed really needs some work? Or is this very setup-related? Is it possible a setup makes three seconds difference for AI's?

Edit: On a side-note, why is it the AI never use the full length of qualifying to set a time?

AndroidXP

18th December 2007, 12:33

It's setup and car related. IMO they also lack some racing techniques, for example they don't seem to know that applying a little throttle in the XFR can help cornering.

ImportFantasy

18th December 2007, 12:37

I dont know if this has been reported or not but,if you set 5 laps on a track like blackwood and switched to drag stripe,they will keep going until they would hit the wall.

Scawen

18th December 2007, 13:12

but 3 seconds over 1 minute-ish laps on pro level makes me think their speed really needs some work? Or is this very setup-related? Is it possible a setup makes three seconds difference for AI's?Yes they need work. It's very difficult for me to write computer programs that can drive as fast as you. What you see now is the result of a couple of months of making them drive as fast as I could achieve in that time. I can often work a day on AI and they will gain a tenth of a second. Some days I could work all day and gain a hundredth. There is loads more I can do but it will take months. The next thing I think I should focus on is improving their ability to understand bumpy road surfaces. But this will not be before Patch Y.

I dont know if this has been reported or not but,if you set 5 laps on a track like blackwood and switched to drag stripe,they will keep going until they would hit the wall.OK, I reproduced this but only by loading a saved grid which had 5 laps when I saved it. Is there another way to reproduce this? If not then I propose the best and safest solution will be for the "load single player start grid" function, to not load Laps, Qualifying, Wind.

traxxion

18th December 2007, 13:29

Yes they need work. It's very difficult for me to write computer programs that can drive as fast as you. What you see now is the result of a couple of months of making them drive as fast as I could achieve in that time. I can often work a day on AI and they will gain a tenth of a second. Some days I could work all day and gain a hundredth. There is loads more I can do but it will take months. The next thing I think I should focus on is improving their ability to understand bumpy road surfaces. But this will not be before Patch Y.
Fair enough! :)

Just to make this clear: I don't even want to think about how difficult it is to program AI's and I have big respect for you - for how they behave already (having a hard time keeping up with the pro FBMW's!).
I posted this to avoid the possibility that you didn't know about this big difference in speed with this particular car and tracks (at least the gap seems bigger than with other cars). Maybe there was something obvious / easy to be changed to fix it for these particular combo's. But I see you're well aware of this "problem", and am looking forward to see the improvements in the future.

PS Sorry for the signature, couldn't resist! :D

Chaos

18th December 2007, 14:06

I don't know if the AI raceline is hardcoded or not, but from what I saw, I think the major part slowing the AI down is that they are not using the full width of the track for their driving... When I teach people to drive fast, I always tell them that each cm (inch) of unused track costs them a lot of time...

Schooner

18th December 2007, 16:56

What you see now is the result of a couple of months of making them drive as fast as I could achieve in that time. I can often work a day on AI and they will gain a tenth of a second. Some days I could work all day and gain a hundredth. There is loads more I can do but it will take months.

I'm not a programmer at all, so I'm probably way off base.

Don't you have the telemetry of the fastest drivers in LFS already? Can you use the world record hotlaps to train the AI or lay out their line?

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 17:00

Fair enough! :)

Just to make this clear: I don't even want to think about how difficult it is to program AI's and I have big respect for you - for how they behave already (having a hard time keeping up with the pro FBMW's!).I agree wholeheartedly. The AI aren't perfect, but they are a HUGE step up from before, and better than half of the people I've raced against. A friend and I raced against a pack of AI cars on Blackwood in the LX4 the other night. I was driving my ass off just to keep up with the "Quick" guys. I made one mistake and never saw them again. The "Pro" guys dusted me within 2 laps and I was unable to catch up.

The new AI is a hundredfold improvement. Once they can adapt a little bit better to overtaking situations and changing conditions, they're going to really give people a run for their money.

zipper (cze)

18th December 2007, 18:43

X35 - I did some race with FXR against AI XRR and FZR and after the race, both AI stopped, made a 180° turn and went straight into pits. Yes, it's pretty similar to most people online, but in X33, they did a lap and then went to the pit, now they drives in opposite direction. btw FZR AI driver did two times a spin in right turn after second split in five laps, but i guess it's not unusual without any lap done before.

btw speed of AI's... i didn't managed to stay close behind the XRR. Well, I drove by mouse and usually using DFP :)

EDIT: hm, Kyoto National was the track :shy:

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 18:49

I just ran a few AI drivers in the FZ5 around Kyoto National. I originally had the race set to 2 laps, then increased it after the race started (to force them to pit). After the 3rd lap, when coming off the oval, every single one of them suddenly turned towards the infield, went through the grass, and hit the pit wall. Once there, they seem unable to figure out how to get back on the track. They just go back and forth into the walls.

This is on X35. Not sure if it happened on previous patches since this is the first time I've tried this track/car combo with the AI.

Edit: I tried the same repro but using the F08 instead of the FZ5. The cars are trying to pit from the wrong end. They pass the pits, then turn around and enter the pits from the wrong end. Then they leave the pits, drive about and 1/8th mile, then turn around and start going the correct way again.

Edit2: I've tried this now with multiple different cars. The F08 and FZR can successfully get into the bits, but they go backwards. The FZ5, LX6, etc. can't seem to figure out how to go backwards and can't make it to the pits. Not sure why some cars can turn around and others can't. Something in the [enter pits] path is obviously wrong, here. Kyoto National Reverse does the same thing. They try to go in the wrong way.

SpikeyMarcoD

18th December 2007, 19:22

I still dont understand why i sometimes after races see AI drive into their box normal and then leave again on track???:shrug:

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 19:25

For what it's worth, even though the AI can't account for the wind, they seem to be able to cope with it just fine. I've tried several races where I start the race, then turn the wind to level 2. So far, I've seen no adverse effects from doing it.

auch_enne

18th December 2007, 19:28

Just added some odd mix of cars on oval, practise, a MRT got flipped, no reset, and AI dont shift S orso, so it just lay there, untill it got hit again landed on it's feet.. nothing happend.

Shouldn't it try to reach the pits? why doesnt it move?

Also on track they seem to evade eachother, but exiting pits they just drive in to each other full speed. Mind you, it was an odd combo so big speed differances but still :)

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 19:33

Just added some odd mix of cars on oval, practise, a MRT got flipped, no reset, and AI dont shift S orso, so it just lay there, untill it got hit again landed on it's feet.. nothing happend.There's an option to allow resetting. It's off by default but if you turn it on I think the AI will reset their cars and fix damage.

sinbad

18th December 2007, 19:57

Last time I'm going to mention it, this time included a replay. The path for many of the cars, and almost all the road cars at SO Chicane Route rev just results in them smashing into the barrier time after time. They usually only make it through without serious collision if they've reacted to a car in front clipping the barrier.
Here's a 5 lap LX6 race which nicely illustrates the problem there.

SpikeyMarcoD

18th December 2007, 19:58

If i take a set with intake restriction and have option AI use driver's set to NO LFS should still use the same restrictions on the AI.

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 20:01

If i take a set with intake restriction and have option AI use driver's set to NO LFS should still use the same restrictions on the AI.How do you figure? If the intake restriction is part of the setup, and the AI are not using that setup, why would they have the restriction?

You would have to use server-side restrictions of some sort for that.

SpikeyMarcoD

18th December 2007, 20:27

The AI are using a set they calculate. They should account for the voluntary restrictions.

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 20:34

The AI are using a set they calculate. They should account for the voluntary restrictions.But you are taking a voluntary restriction, not them. If you restrict your car, those restrictions aren't enforced on everyone else in the race. Only server-side restrictions would do that. In that case, all cars (including the AI) would be restricted.

I think this is working as it's supposed to.

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 20:40

The AI are still having problems coping with grass. They are much better at staying on the track now, but on occasion when they try for a pass they spin out or get bumped onto the grass. Quite often they will sit there spinning circles or bumping into walls. Not sure if this can be fixed simply by having them use less throttle when on the grass.

Edit: AI still having issues pitting too. I had 7 cars running on Kyoto GP. Even though there are 16 pit boxes there, out of 7 cars two of them apparently tried to use the same box and crashed into each other. Either that, or the later car turned in too soon hitting the first car as it was trying to enter the next box.

SpikeyMarcoD

18th December 2007, 20:54

Cue-Ball

18th December 2007, 20:58

There are whole classes now based on restricted cars GT2 (CTRA) and UF BabyR. So i should not have to let them use my set perse to race them. I dont think its an unreasonable question.

Dont know what you mean with serverside if i am racing by myseld in singleplayer.Even in single player, you're essentially running a host. You pick the track, the laps, the weather, if pitting is required, etc. What you're basically asking for is a way to restrict all the cars that connect. What we have right now is simply voluntary restrictions that can be used by leagues to add ballast or intake restriction to specific people.

I understand what you're asking for, but it needs to be solved by server-side restrictions, not a change in the AI behavior, IMO.

gohfeld23

18th December 2007, 20:58

I found a almost sure way (bug) to win against any AI difficulty.

Not sure if it was mentioned already but if you get on the inside of the AI in the corner, they will pull back quite a bit allowing you to gain a good lead.
However, if you are on the outside, they will slam you into the wall with all their might.

I believe those two should be balanced a bit to make the AI a bit more realistic, but all in all the AI are great IMO.

Great job Scaven and Team......once again.

germanpio

18th December 2007, 21:45

In X35 the AI in KY2 and KY2r now drives in the wrong direction in the pits. e.g. KY2 should be to the right, but the AI drives to the left.

henrico-20-

18th December 2007, 22:09

AI doesent overtake. did an 16hour test race wit UFR 30%restriction XFR 25%restriction and LX4 0% restriction. but they just don't overtake. they step all the time on the brake when they make a move to pass. also Did GTR test on KY Oval, when AI is faster they just don't pass even on straights. they jump on the brakes and make abrubt steering moves. also they enter the pitlane to fast at KY oval so they get a drivetrough all the time. but i see that its fixed in X35?

so these bugs i noticed:

-AI don't overtake they just brake and do abrubt steering and following eachother in one line. even when there is a diffrent in power ( LX4/UFR/XFR)
-AI doesnt use the full width of the track. just one line.

jayhawk

18th December 2007, 23:39

They seem to be OK at Aston. I had 15 cars, 4 of each GTR class, and 3 FOX's. One AI got smashed to bits and limped around the track in first gear before it ran out of gas and parked far away from the race line. One other AI played in the sand at the downhill chicane, then finally got itself out.

They pitted once during the 10 laps, did not burn their clutches out, and only one AI tried to bump another out of a pit stall.

To me, a vast improvement.

Cue-Ball

19th December 2007, 01:01

I can confirm that Kyoto National pit behavior is fixed in X36. Thanks!

tristancliffe

19th December 2007, 09:59

Just had lots of AI at BL2 in XFGs, with a forced pitstop and 20 laps (mainly to test the clutch solution, which seems to work fine).

But their pitlane entrance technique is, err, interesting. Wait until last minute, then hurl the car sideways into the pitlane in a big slide. Then catch the slide, flick it the other way, and tootle down the pitlane...

The race isn't over yet (AI4 looks to have it in the bag with 6 laps to go!), but when it is I'll try and attach the replay.

Edit: Download zip file containing spr here (http://www.reynard883.com/misc/AI BL2 Pitting.zip)

sil3ntwar

19th December 2007, 11:01

AI still fail to slow down enough for the pits on the oval in BF1 or if they have damage at any track (im guessing, its the case for westhill anyway). They get a penalty then when they come in to serve the penalty they get another. This continues forever it seems. Cant really test a lot as LFS crashes a lot when alt tabbing with AI running and i need a pc restart to play again.

Cant upload replay as its too big.

Noccy

19th December 2007, 11:19

Things i noticed during a full grid 51lapper with XRT at blackwood.

- AI only takes fuel for 4 qualylaps and then comes into the pits regardless of time remaining. They dont go out again even if theres still 8 minutes of qualy left.
-15 out of 20 cars got stranded in the sandpit after the straight. Most(but not all) had a front puncture and werent able to adapt their brakingpoint..thus sliding into the gravelpit. (could be prevented by adjusting brakepressure so they dont lock their tires so often..but the ai should be able to adapt to blown tires)
-AI that pits on lap 41 to replace an almost blown right front replaces all four of his tires, and worse...adds the starting amount of fuel for 51 laps. He had ~13%left and added ~54% ending up with 67% of fuel..so more then he would need for a whole race while there were only 10laps to go.

Even though i only race online, the AI has improved alot. All they need imo is more consistency to be a good tool to get newer players up to speed

mrfell

19th December 2007, 11:43

more odd xfg bl2 behaviour whilst pitting very early in a 20 lap race, its quality viewing.

edit: x36 btw

orne

19th December 2007, 12:26

XR GTR is having trouble in the last corner of the KY Grand Prix track when the front tires are hot...

JTbo

19th December 2007, 13:13

AI drivers in BL2 driving LX4 are spinning near end of 2nd gravel section, they do that in every lap and reason is that they drive inside to corner where is large bumps and same time they turn left so they turn 180 degrees in air and land to opposite wall.

When there was other AI cars (one of each car type allowed) there, they drove that place properly, but if LX4 was spun there they tend to ram against poor fella with full speed.

And indeed, pitting problem of AI is still there, they make entry too late and violently, loosing control partly or completely, also they ram to each other while trying to get into same pitbox.

It seems to be really troublesome this BL2, maybe fixing all issues with it are going to take bit too much time from other bug fixing?

ksa_land

19th December 2007, 13:15

Hi,

did some testing at Westhill with PRO AI:

X35: UFR & XFR, 12 cars, 10 laps, forced pitstop, "use player setup" off
--> all UFRs get a DT as they enter pits. But they are allways too fast, so they get a DT forever.
Pitting itself is a mess (All cars at same time in the pits). Some crash in the car in front of them. Don't know if they want to pit at the same place (yellow pit marking) or if they want to pit one place later but steer too early to the left side.

X36: FBM, 12 cars, 10 laps, forced pitstop, "use player setup" off
--> most of the cars get a DT when entering pits --> DT forever --> disqualified after race.
Pitting itself the same mess. Some crash into other cars. A crashed car got pushed out of the pits by another. The pushed AI was on full throttle AND half on the brake --> clutch was overheating. After the car behind passed the pushed car the AI wanted to drive normal but wasn't aware of the overheated clutch --> AI burned clutch totally.
Other (4 or 5) AIs didn't get refueled. They were out of fuel after a half lap after pitting --> out of race

X35: big GTRs (mixed), 12 cars, 10 laps, .... like above
--> NO DT but they braked unhumanly perfect into the pits :D
After Race some of the cars didn't turn into their pitstalls(?). Oddly they turned left to enter the stall but suddenly turned right again and drove through the pitlane and turned off the engine a few meters after the pits.

Hope you understand my english :tilt:

Hyperactive

19th December 2007, 18:04

A feature request, no bug reports in this post

One easy (some will not like this) way to make the AIs faster could be to make the AI cars lighter and more powerful, kinda like reversed handicaps. This would solve some issues with the AI drivers:
- slow through corners, not able to maintain speed through apex
- too late on full throttle on corner exit (slow on straight)
- brake too early

Just for clarification I'd like to add that what I'm proposing is that the cars the AIs are driving would be made lighter and more powerful than the normal cars. Maybe the actual weight/power ratio could be adjusted by the AI skill levels.

Why to make the AIs' cars faster instead of handicapping yourself?

Firstly, it is easy to implement (I guess) and would instantly make AI drivers faster and maybe this would leave more time for our hard-working coder to focus on their behaviour.

Secondly, you can use the same setup and same driving techniques (braking points etc.) as if you were practising for a league race against "fast targets". And most importantly you would be practising with a car that is exactly the same as the car you will use in the actual race.

Third. Racing with AIs would be more challenging and fun, not just an overtaking practise with idiots (sorry :)). On some tracks the AI are indeed quick (SO7 with FBM) but with roarcars they are really slow.

Sorry to bump this here but... it could work...?

MarioX

19th December 2007, 18:42

Not trying to offend, but that would be really dumb thing to do. It would be not LFS'ish at all :really: One of the best things about AI in LFS is that they have to drive in the same physics engine, using the same cars and influence the car through same controls as human player. In most(all?) other sims/games AI is artificially "driving" in separate(simplified) physics model with handicapped, or simply fatser cars - depends on the difficulty setting.

What is the point in AI really? To give a possibility to race against opponents offline. The key point in racing is equal conditions. What would happen if noobs on online servers have started demanding lightened and more powerful cars because they are slower... sounds like complete nonsense, doesn't it ?

If you really want to make races against AI harder for yourself - then use existing handicaps options for your car - no need to sacrifice LFS philosophy and realism for that :nod:

madbikes

19th December 2007, 19:24

I don't think this has been reported yet.

I was racing with 5 AI in X36 on SO Classic Reverse for 6 laps (all XFG). It doesn't look like the AI takes bump into account that they lose control at the chichane. All AI cannot find a way to go back to their line and end up burning their clutch at the end of the chichane (all 5 AI lined up nicely). This is highly repeatable.

Cue-Ball

19th December 2007, 19:25

The lines that the AI use, when the get on the power, etc. can be modified by Scawen. Rather than "boosting" their cars we should address their lines and throttling.

Can you be specific about which track/car combos the AI are slow on? I ran against some AI in the LX4 on Blackwood the other night and had one hell of a time just keeping up with the Quick level. The Pro level guys left me in the dust.

madbikes

19th December 2007, 19:53

I also tried the normal direction and they don't know how to exit the chichane. They just ram the wall on their own. After race ends, they know how to get back to pits, but two AI don't know their way in the pits and cause two of them just exit the pit and just stayed there.

Hyperactive

20th December 2007, 09:32

The lines that the AI use, when the get on the power, etc. can be modified by Scawen. Rather than "boosting" their cars we should address their lines and throttling.
As I implied, it would be just a short fix to get them competitive. I know it is agains the spirit of LFS but it could save some time in-between :)
Can you be specific about which track/car combos the AI are slow on? I ran against some AI in the LX4 on Blackwood the other night and had one hell of a time just keeping up with the Quick level. The Pro level guys left me in the dust.
Let's just say that I haven't yet found a combo where they are competitive (oyher than SO7r/FBM). I'll try that BL1/LX4 next along with some other lx4 combos :)

Sorry for posting this stuff here. I know this thread is for bug reports only but... *excuse*

AndroidXP

20th December 2007, 10:00

I think it doesn't really make any sense reporting all these AI issues. It is IMO pretty clear that while they're massively improved speed wise (which was afaik the focus of the current AI improvements), they're far from having good racecraft or being raceable in the first place.

All these things will not be fixed in patch Y but afterwards, it's not like Scawen said he'll stop working on the AI as soon as Y is out. :thumb:

Madman_CZ

20th December 2007, 13:08

I have just had something weird happen to me. I started a race sp South City Chicane route only with AIs. I was spectating and having a bit of fun watching them. Then on lap 3 on the first corner AI car number 10 (AI 10) crashed and got stuck facing the wall. It then just kept flooring the throttle until it blew the two rear tyres. It was also hit by another AI approaching car. But this wasn't the weird bit yet, the ai then slowly managed to get going after being hit a few more times by other ai opponents. It slowly made its way down the long straight and towards the double right handed corners where again it spun due to the deflated rear tyres. The rest of the pack was coming to that section with AI 10 still being all over the place. The weird thing was that the other AI cars did slow down but then they suddenly lost grip at the rear and span out. Around half of the field span out at the same spot with the same problem , sudden loss of rear grip? could this have been the setup? I noticed their rear tyres were hot but to have them nearly all spin out? hmm

probably just the ai not being finished like AndroidXP says.

I have attached the replay. Watch car AI 10 and it all starts happening start of lap3, first corner and then wait until he goes past the long straight.

Scawen

20th December 2007, 13:29

This doesn't fix all problems of course but there are quite a few updates in X37 which help them crash less.

AI :

AI drive more slowly to deal with damaged car
Improved decisions to make pit stop for damage repair
Improved AI speed and fuel estimates on rallycross tracks
Mid race join AI consider lead car laps for must pit rule
Improved pit stop box decisions to reduce pit lane mayhem
FIX : AI driving too fast into Oval / Westhill pit lanes
FIX : AI crashed entering Blackwood rallycross pit lane
FIX : AI could keep driving in pit stop state if knocked

MoonForce

20th December 2007, 13:35

just sum improvement in this bugtest topic: ai dont know flags yet right? i had the problem that i had a full field of ai and some of them got blue flags for 30 minutes long but they did not move away... so just a impro, maybe there could be some like " if ai-car.gotblueflagged reached limit then p_sg for that ai-car" or something like this would solve the problem for the moment couz ai would enter the pits next lap and blue flag is over ...

JTbo

20th December 2007, 13:51

RB4 @ SO6R try to cut at entry of 'bus stop' which results them hitting the wall, but this seem to be happening only with cold tires.

Do they still learn? Might be something they would be able to learn :scratchch

This with x37

Hyperactive

20th December 2007, 14:33

WE1 with XRTs, qualify, 20minutes. The AI cars do their laps and pit for more fuel. But if they see that their pitbox is already taken (maybe other ai has spinned on or going over the spot as the Ai checks if the said spot is free) they don't pit and continue straight out from the pits. As a result they run out of fuel in T1 (:D) and cause massive accident because those who got fuel drive into the stopped cars.

EDIT: X37

Scawen

20th December 2007, 14:58

Flame CZE

20th December 2007, 15:21

I tested AI at Blackwood RallyX with XRGs on patch X37, i set pit stop required and 2 laps. Some of those cars were a little bit damaged so they were longer time in the pit. The car (AI 10) which drove out of the pit earlier crashed into the car still standing in the pits. Watch the attachment.

Hyperactive

20th December 2007, 15:35

Strange because they shouldn't even stop for fuel in qualifying, and they certainly don't check to see if a pit box is free! Actually they totally ignore all other cars in the pit lane.

I'll run a test but the only explanation I can think of at the moment is they are not actually pitting for fuel, but in fact they are trying to park, and are getting knocked out when trying to park. How many AI did you run for this test?

I've done this few times with different amounts of AI, from 10 to max. Always the same :)

I'll look for replay next

EDIT: that's right. I'll upload the file to some place, the files is too large (7mb)

Hyperactive

20th December 2007, 16:11

The file: http://www.bestsharing.com/files/ugMn9u382849/WE1.spr.html

Although it should be easy to reproduce. Just put enough AIs to qualify and watch.

D_Thrasher

20th December 2007, 16:24

This may well have been reported before (apologies if it has), but the AI seem to be having some trouble entering the pitlane on SO5. I'm using X37, and the AI were all using XRRs (called Sausage, Gas Pipe and Girtle...bit of a Worms Armageddeon influence there, hehe). They all went to pit on lap 4, and missed the pit entry lane, bouncing off and then trying to drive through the wall into it...burning out their clutches. They also kept hitting the wall opposite the sharp hairpin, repeatedly. I've attached a replay.
Again, sorry if this had already been reported. Thanks for X37 too..should help a lot on the other tracks.:)

JTbo

20th December 2007, 16:47

AI cars seem to have some difficulties with LX4 at BL2 also, that last s-curve on 2nd gravel area. They hit wall left side of road and jump from bump spinning so they end up to wall left on road.

I did run with about 10 AI cars 15 lap race and only 1 did finish as other went upside down on that corner, there was bit of bad luck too, but they have trouble to handle that place.

Then winner managed to flip his car to side on out lap after race.

One AI car was flipped back to wheels, but as he had shut down engine he never started it again.

I'm thinking Scawen soon removes BL2 all together as there has been so many problems :schwitz:

Scawen

20th December 2007, 16:58

I've done this few times with different amounts of AI, from 10 to max. Always the same :)

I'll look for replay next

EDIT: that's right. I'll upload the file to some place, the files is too large (7mb)OK I know what this is, it's the same thing at AS Cadet, when they are trying to park.

Because when they want to park they don't consider their stopping point until they are in the speed limit zone, and by then it's basically too late.

I'll try and do something about this...

JTbo

20th December 2007, 17:04

OK I know what this is, it's the same thing at AS Cadet, when they are trying to park.

Because when they want to park they don't consider their stopping point until they are in the speed limit zone, and by then it's basically too late.

I'll try and do something about this...

For me it looks like AI could use some sort of look ahead feature (looking up to 200m ahead) as now they seem to be looking 10 meters ahead, but that might be bit hard to do CPU efficiently as I believe it would be needed to add one another AI calculations routine for that to work, but you are genius here, I believe you have better ideas how to do it :D

510N3D

20th December 2007, 17:09

forgive me if im too lazy to read the entire thread but i've got a suggestion and a erm...little bug i guess. The suggestion would be to decide somewhere (let it be the F12 page for instance) how often the ai should do a qualify run. Right now they do their 3 laps + the 4th lap to pit in and thats it. You need to spectate them and let them rejoin again (as you know already). The bug i have noticed is when (track was so6 (love it:thumb:)) when the ai is leaving the tunnel going on the start/ finish straight and when another car is leaving the pits or driving in the pitlane, it is trying to avoid it for some reason :D.

Scawen

20th December 2007, 17:26

For me it looks like AI could use some sort of look ahead feature (looking up to 200m ahead) as now they seem to be looking 10 meters ahead, but that might be bit hard to do CPU efficiently as I believe it would be needed to add one another AI calculations routine for that to work, but you are genius here, I believe you have better ideas how to do it :DNo, they deliberately did not look ahead in that case, that code was to fix AI going mad in loop back pit paths - entry to AS Cadet REV for example.

But I've done a fix and will prepare the update.

sinbad

20th December 2007, 17:44

So- updating the path of an AI car around a circuit so it doesn't crash every single time: Oh, let's say Chicane Route Reversed, and let's say LX6 (although I could pick plenty more), and more specifically, the chicane - is that a big job that could not be done for any of the test patches? Or does scawen have me on block? Just curious, I'm a little surprised my posts haven't even been acknowledged.

Scawen

20th December 2007, 17:54

Hi Sinbad. I put your bug report as a note on my sheet, which I do for all reported bugs, usually without acknowledgement. Then I try to get round to it when possible.

But we are at that time now where I can say that those individual issues won't be fixed for Patch Y. It is an extremely difficult problem to solve. The AI paths (knw files) are all generated, we don't have any editing facilities for them.

The solution to the issues you reported (crashing into walls in the tight section at South City, and all other failures to follow their racing line correctly) is to improve the AI's understanding of bumpy road surfaces and so on, probably by a more careful analysis of the road surface between path nodes and taking into account their suspension hardness as well which they currently ignore in their current slightly crude bump analysys. These are general updates which will make AI better and driving and better at generating paths. I've been thinking about this quite often but haven't solved it yet, it sounds like a few days of work to get it right.

The only blanket way to solve all such issues at the moment would be to make the AI take more care everywhere, then they'd just be slow basically. While there is still inaccuracy in their understanding of how fast they can go in any particular place, it's better to have a few tracks where they wipe out, rather than being slow across the board.

mrfell

20th December 2007, 17:59

Still getting crazy pitting in bl2, X38 and a mixed grid

-V-Max-

20th December 2007, 18:06

I always thought that AI could generate there own path? They learn.. (okay they do, but read on)

I tried something out.. Placed a barrier JUST on their racing line in a (slow) corner, it tipped their back and they sometimes spun out, some AI could correct it.. Kept them going for around 50 laps but they didn't learn that driving 'there' isn't best practice..

Am i asking too much from the AI path learning?

sinbad

20th December 2007, 18:17

-V-Max-

20th December 2007, 18:21

That's strange, because placing barriers in corners where AI cars run off road worked in pre-X30. I did that for example in the last turn of KY Long Rev and they changed their path more or less (however, didn't helped continously and everytime) in FZ5 et cetera.

Offroad isn't on there path I think, it's pretty normal they learn to stay on their path (and the road?)

Not trying to argue, just checking :)

510N3D

20th December 2007, 18:24

Thankyou for the response. It's interesting because they deal with it properly in some cars, even ones which are more upset by bumps like the single seaters, but it looks, to me, like the path for those cars which crash repeatedly is in fact closer to the barrier. See pictures.
Maybe they don't stick to the line perfectly - they miss the barrier by a whisker in the slow down lap, but why is the generated line so aggressive and close for some cars? It's like some cars are simply more intelligent at creating their path than others.

i think it has alot to do with the suspension in combination with brake behaviour and weight transfer. For instance, i gave my ai the road going setup from bob smith for the uf1 and they where simple unable to take some turns properly because of the things mentioned above. The compensation of several factors at one time is the issue i guess.

Edit: another thing would be the line itself. Scawen said its been generated and i just take ky1 as an example: the line itself is well, pretty much crap actually for the faster cars but for the slower cars, lets say ufr and xfr its pretty much perfect. If you then take the fxo or rac for example it doesnt really fit anymore. So in the end, its a line not for every car individually but a general line (at every track i assume) which also makes things a bit more complicated for them ai.

sinbad

20th December 2007, 18:32

i think it has alot to do with the suspension in combination with brake behaviour and weight transfer. For instance, i gave my ai the road going setup from bob smith for the uf1 and they where simple unable to take some turns properly because of the things mentioned above. The compensation of several factors at one time is the issue i guess.

That would explain their failure to stick to the line properly, but doesn't shed light on why cars that might struggle with those things would generate a path which, even if they were almost perfectly following it, would still result in a crash.
r.e your edit, look at my attached files (closely). They do have different lines.

510N3D

20th December 2007, 18:44

That would explain their failure to stick to the line properly, but doesn't shed light on why cars that might struggle with those things would generate a path which, even if they were almost perfectly following it, would still result in a crash.
r.e your edit, look at my attached files (closely). They do have different lines.

yes they do, resulting out of a couple of factors, some of them mentioned in my previous reply. I guess their ability to adapt is pretty much limited right now. Also with rather hardcore settings inside the setup this could be a reason for this. For example, asymetric camber (and/or tire preasure) settings. Or another example at so6, AI @ fo8 and they had the bad habit to shift down to second gear in this area which is also on you picture (but comming from the other side) which then forces them to lift off even more and correct the line again. When i altered the transmission they sticked with the correct gear and where even faster. :shrug::D

Ondrejko

20th December 2007, 19:14

AI drivers cannot park in pits of Fern Bay Gold after the race, because they crash each other at pitlane so they go for another lap and they stop in T1

xaotik

20th December 2007, 19:14

Edit: Some drivers developed a different path on KY Ring, too. I had some TBO drivers which took the inside line after last corner because of beeing rear-ended by GTR quite often. Can't provide screenshot from my X10-install this time as I'm out of unlocks for this month (new hardware). :tilt:

Yeah, in pre-X30 patch level the AI had separate .knw files which they updated - now that doesn't seem to be the case - or atleast I don't see them maintaining some sort of state on file. Which is sort of sad because I had gotten fond of some of the quirks a few of my trained AI drivers had developed.

Cue-Ball

20th December 2007, 19:17

AI drivers cannot park in pits of Fern Bay Gold after the race, because they crash each other at pitlane so they go for another lap and they stop in T1That happens on pretty much every single track with every single car. The AI are pretty decent out on the track, but their behavior for pitting and stopping after the race leaves something to be desired. I'm sure it's on Scawen's to-do list, but dunno if we'll see it fixed for Y.

The Very End

20th December 2007, 19:18

Would be awesome if the AI could still learn. It would help a lot, and it maybe would be competative at some way.
We`ll just have to wait and see what Scawen makes out of it :)

germanpio

20th December 2007, 19:25

If the AI gets on the grass in the BF1 they still use too much throttle. They are spinning for a lot of time (>5 minutes) unless they are randomly hit by another car.

Napalm Candy

20th December 2007, 19:28

Yesterday i tried a thing. I make a race with 20 drivers, with the 20 diferents cars, in Fern Bay Gold Reversed. In order 1st UF1000 and last BF1, from slower to faster

If you want to see a lot of bugs and inconsistencies, try to do that.

-All the cars has the same Race line, only change the points to brake or acceleration. And this is incorrect, a BF1 can't has to do the same that a UF1000 or MRT.

-Only few formulas, in some cases know how to pass. For example a FZR can't to pass a RB4 if is not hitting. The others only pass if the front exits of the race line.

-None gives way when has blue flag.

-FOX (and others) don't know how leave the grass and return to track.

-All cars (XRT vs XRT, or BF1 vs BF1, etc) make the same movements in the same location, lap after lap, the same errors or "last braking"... etc. The only differences between drivers is that the 1st is a little faster than 2nd that is a little faster than 3th.. etc

-And a very large etc

xaotik

20th December 2007, 21:06

-All cars (XRT vs XRT, or BF1 vs BF1, etc) make the same movements in the same location, lap after lap, the same errors or "last braking"... etc. The only differences between drivers is that the 1st is a little faster than 2nd that is a little faster than 3th.. etc

I think that's just part of them using one unified AI path or something. It can be quite funny to watch them do it when they're all in a line - it's like a conga dance. As a quick fix try listening to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO35nuvYo4k) as you watch them. :)

Widdowmaker

20th December 2007, 21:44

Qualifying - KY Oval. Full field (XFR, XZR, XRR) of AI on 3 minute quali. Ai started from the pit - did 2 laps - and as the 3 minutes ended - 1/2 the field failed to make a last lap, eg they didnt cross the finish line before the end of Quali - thos that had had sufficient fuel left but didnt not complete the lap they were on.

Because the clock had gone to Zero - they pitted and ended session(pulled into garage) - even though they could still have done a flying lap.

JO53PHS

20th December 2007, 23:26

Please report any issues you find in the new AI drivers in this thread.

Try to avoid duplicate bug reports.

KNOWN ISSUES : The AI will still drive into you quite a lot when you are racing, in the pit lane or on the main track. The focus so far has been their speed and racing reliability, and their ability to pit. I expect to work on their behaviour around other cars this week.

The speed is good, unfortunately the same can't be said for how clean their racing is.

Good work with speed of AIs but they really need to crash a lot less, after a 1 lap race at SO chicane route all cars were damaged and some totally wrecked:(

There was even an airbourne XFG as the cars came down off the bridge :)

Cue-Ball

21st December 2007, 00:16

The speed is good, unfortunately the same can't be said for how clean their racing is.

Good work with speed of AIs but they really need to crash a lot less, after a 1 lap race at SO chicane route all cars were damaged and some totally wrecked:(

There was even an airbourne XFG as the cars came down off the bridge :)That's strange. I thought the AI on SO Chicane was fixed? I ran two AI-only races earlier today, both of them using the XFG and XRG. Both races were 20+ laps and all cars finished (without damage) each time.

thatguy

21st December 2007, 00:35

When you are online and the server you are playing on displays how fast you've reached 100km, if you have an ai driver out on the track (that you put there) and you leave the pits, you'll see thousands of those 0-100km messages. Not sure if this counts as an lfs bug, or something those servers need to fix, but posted here anyway. I've only replicated this once after the first time.

JTbo

21st December 2007, 00:38

=C.R= Boomshanka

21st December 2007, 00:54

this happened a few times today after the update single player in so chicane

the tyer/CT bar (the f9 key)

wouldnt show me any wear or heat always just black

Cue-Ball

21st December 2007, 01:05

You might want to save that as a .jpg and repost, since it's half a meg for that tiny little bitmap.

Shotglass

21st December 2007, 01:25

Theres a funny issue with the way they pit on KY oval with the UF1 (yes we actually spent about an hour tonight watching the AIs race that combo). Anyway the problem is when they go for their pitstop they do what looks a lot like a handbrake turn and overshoot their parking position by a mile. By the looks of it I´d guess its caused by the kink along the pitlane.

edit:
Sorry ´bout that. After trying again offline with race_s it would seem that the issue was caused by casse´s retarded setup and not the AI.

MarioX

21st December 2007, 04:41

Ran two 50 lap races with 12 AI (XFR and UFR) on AS Club Rev (Reset - No, Pitstop - NO). There was one problem which wasn't mentioned yet (?) - after about half a race, first XFRs started blowing their front right tyres and going to pits afterwards, BUT missing they pit box(or not reaching one) - they simply stopped in between two yellow marked spots. As nothing happens (because they don't "check in"), they immediately go again to the track with all the damage they have and a blown tyre. So such crippled AI then goes to pits again in the next lap, and it's still the same - they stop in the wrong place, nothing happens, they go out. And so on and on for every lap, until race ends. All XFRs except one had this problem, but none of the UFRs (they pitted correctly). spr is ~40 MB so i'll upload it somewhere if really needed.

p.s. almost sleeping as I'm writing this, but you get the point...