So, will the new update reward clutch and shifter drivers?

[Origamiboy]

First of all, let me say the new update is great news, and a massive thumbs up to the devs for implementing all of this.

Now, in Scawen's video, he mentioned that clutch wear and engine damage have been improved, and that sequential users will 'need to ease off the throttle in order to shift up', amongst other things.

Do these changes amount to rewarding clutch and h-shifter drivers, or will it not make much of a difference? As a clutch and shifter user myself, it would be nice to benefit from reduced engine wear etc from not flat shifting for example.. Also, if clutch users are rewarded, will there be a backlash from other racers? Should there be server level options such as 'clutch only'?

What do you think?

[JTbo]

It sounds like shifting will be bit like netkar, unless you don't lift it won't change no matter what, but I guess that works such way only if you don't press clutch, this is good thing together with clutchless shifts you can use sequential properly then and I believe it will have quite some effect.

Clutch heating I believe is set to such level that if racer constantly shifts with lot of clutch slip it will cause problems, I believe that it really effects driving too, but also that effects to shifter users too, they need to take care not to slip too much of it.

But these are only guesses, it is now less than a month until we know for sure how it is :)

Anyway it sounds really good with engine damage and realistic limiters :)

[Blackout]

Now, in Scawen's video, he mentioned that clutch wear and engine damage have been improved, and that sequential users will 'need to ease off the throttle in order to shift up', amongst other things.

There was no mention about engine damage or clutch wear, don't make up things, please.

It said gearbox and engine simulation was improved and that you can heat up your clutch and stall your engine.

[richy]

Wonder how the stalling on the grid is going to shake up starts? :D:D:D:D

[Origamiboy]

There was no mention about engine damage or clutch wear, don't make up things, please.

It said gearbox and engine simulation was improved and that you can heat up your clutch and stall your engine.

Doesn't that amount to the same thing? Either way thats the way I understood it, I'm not trying to make anything up.

[tristancliffe]

No, clutch heat and clutch wear are different. So are engine damage and clutch damage. All we know is stalling (not damage, heat or wear) on the engines, and heat on the clutch (not wear or damage).

[Origamiboy]

No, clutch heat and clutch wear are different. So are engine damage and clutch damage. All we know is stalling (not damage, heat or wear) on the engines, and heat on the clutch (not wear or damage).

Ok, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.. :thumb:

[Blackout]

No, clutch heat and clutch wear are different. So are engine damage and clutch damage. All we know is stalling (not damage, heat or wear) on the engines, and heat on the clutch (not wear or damage).
Just out of curiosity, would you think clutch wear is actually needed? I'm probably smart as left handed ape what it comes mechanics and stuff, but I can't help wondering if wear is needed.

Because, if the clutch starts to slip, it should stop working as it should because the heat itself. I could imagine that in LFS's short races (and the fact you get a fresh car every race) clutch wear could be rather irrelevant this point? Or does clutches wear down in real racing that much?

[AndroidXP]

Hard to tell. Normally you'd at least need clutch damage too. I don't know what the effects of clutch heating alone are, only that after going over a certain temperature you basically "melt" your clutch, but this damage is irreversible, so just letting it cool down won't fix anything.

[tristancliffe]

In something like the F1 car, with a clutch the size of your fist and the power of several small countries, clutch wear would be an issue - it get's hot, slips, wears out = no more clutch (even if you let it cool again).

On the more sensible cars, or road cars, I'd doubt we'd ever notice it really, so heat on it's own would be enough. Who knows whether Scawen has added wear as well as heat... We'll find out soon enough, and I doubt it'll be the last drivetrain update ever anyway, so there will always be scope for adding it.

[AndroidXP]

In something like the F1 car, with a clutch the size of your fist and the power of several small countries.But isn't it the torque clutches fear? :p

[thisnameistaken]

Wonder how the stalling on the grid is going to shake up starts? :D:D:D:D

In the UF1, XFG and XRG, probably nobody using manual clutch will be able to get it off the line, but all the auto-clutchers will be saved by their robot left foot. The rest of the cars you'll still be able to bury the pedal and off you'll go, just like we do now.

I want a UF1 race at BL1R with 30 manual clutch drivers though - the start would be very entertaining!

[tristancliffe]

Power = n x Torque x rpm, and I wanted an rpmless unit :p

[Mille Sabords]

Get SI units and you can sell this n... or trade it for higher RPMs :)

[SamH]

In the video, Scawen says "clutches can overheat". This implies at least in-game clutch problems through misuse, no?

Engines now have more inertia, realistic redlines. Clutches can overheat and engines can be stalled.

[Bob Smith]

A clutch can only handle so much torque, torque past this limit will just make the clutch slip, rather than be transmitted to the wheels to drive the vehicle. Adding clutch heating just means you can reduce this torque limit with temperature.

For anyone using the text version of LFS, the patch will add the following message:
"You become aware of a distrinctly non-rubber burning smell. What do you want to do?"

[thisnameistaken]

So what causes clutch overheating? Flat-shifting in the road cars?

[JTbo]

In something like the F1 car, with a clutch the size of your fist and the power of several small countries, clutch wear would be an issue - it get's hot, slips, wears out = no more clutch (even if you let it cool again).

On the more sensible cars, or road cars, I'd doubt we'd ever notice it really, so heat on it's own would be enough. Who knows whether Scawen has added wear as well as heat... We'll find out soon enough, and I doubt it'll be the last drivetrain update ever anyway, so there will always be scope for adding it.

Yes, if you drive like a granny (3000-4000rpm and car barely moves) you will fry your clutch, even if it is not worn thin, clutch and flywheel has almost no friction as surfaces will go glass like (how do you call it in international language?), do several burnouts with clutch and it surely is failing, so I think it can happen with road cars too.

Would be sweet if we would be required to go Halfords and buy new clutch before we can continue abuse, it would teach kids some truths of life :nod:

[ajp71]

So what causes clutch overheating? Flat-shifting in the road cars?

Clutches can overheat any time they get lots of slippage, they shouldn't really be an issue in normal racing with a reasonably realistically treated car. Clutches don't tend to produce much slippage in low power cars and actually plates cracking on cool down after a session is the most common (and very expensive and terminal) issue, both are cars have done this in practice and ended up locking the clutch together and successfully completed races from a push start afterwards ;)

AFAIK there's no such thing as flat shifting IRL (possible exceptions of drag racing etc.) all real racing cars have the throttle bodies closed either by ape or super computer. If they didn't they simply wouldn't last. A true sequential gearbox is usually shifted clutchlessly (an F1 gearbox is different) and as such cannot be shifted when the gears are meshed to together with the torque of the engine being applied, so real cars have to have the engine torque cut somehow, the simplest solution is to lift the right foot. It's exactly the same reason why you'll find you can't take your road car out of gear without removing the engine torque (either by clutching or lifting off). Any attempt at flat shifting or not vaguely rev matching with clutched shifts will result in forces tearing just about everything apart and it is unlikely to last long enough so you have to worry about the clutch overheating.

[JTbo]

Spark cut ;)

[thisnameistaken]

Clutches can overheat any time they get lots of slippage

So this is unlikely to ever happen during a race in LFS, then.

[AndroidXP]

On the contrary, they should get absolutely destroyed if the flatshifting is continued as now. I hope the clutch simulation becomes more realistic, though. Right now we seem to have infinitely strong clutches that never slip when fully engaged, no matter how much torque is applied.

[SamH]

Sounds like the gearbox has been reworked and methods of shifting are changing, so it's not possible to know yet how it all will come together.

[mrodgers]

I'm thinking, again, advantage goes to auto clutchers. How can you slip the clutch if the computer is doing it for you?

Talking tintops, clutch and h-shift, I would think that the only time you would get too much heat in the clutch during racing is at any time you start from a stand still, at race start, or any time you spin out and start back out from a stand still. For me at least in my real car on public normal road driving, clutch slippage is very minimal when shifting gears.

But, I don't know how that would relate to a smaller lighter clutch in race cars or single seaters. In the road cars, if assumed a stock clutch, they are made for ordinary folks driving on ordinary roads. They are designed to take slipping on a normal stock road car.

[F.Rizzo]

I assume full throttle gear changes will cause overheating ... when the clutch en/dis-engages and you are on full whack power, the excess friction will cause heat and wear.

Only time will tell though :D I think LFS could use some more "Punish bad behaviour"! :thumb:

[AndroidXP]

^ Also known as the multiple times mentioned "flatshifting" ;)

[F.Rizzo]

lol sorry I was being lazy and didn't read all the replies in full ^^

:shy:

[Blackout]

Interesting, very interesting.

I would like to know what differences there are in clutches used in normal road cars and proper racing cars.

I've been under the impression that in race cars you need more revs and the car is easier to stall. But is it because the clutch bites that hard, or because all the torque is on the high revs? How are clutches used in racing cars and road cars physically different, and how is the difference shown when used if there is any? Of course, then there are gearboxes... is there a thread about this already somewhere, would like to read more.

Never had guessed I would get even near this excited about some clutch thing, can't imagine how excited our real propeller heads are.

[tristancliffe]

Race clutches have stronger springs, and softer materials - they wear quickly, but they transmit the torque effectively. But it means that they are difficult to balance on the biting point, and feel like they are either on or off. They are also noisier, as the plates can flutter and vibrate when the clutch is disengaged.

Road clutches are designed to be long lasting and easy to use - softer springs, built in drive cushioning, and harder more predicable materials.

Add to that a race engine is peaky (not much torque/driveability low down), and they can be tricky to move away in.

[Blackout]

Thanks for the always so informative replay Tristan. And well, if Scawen has managed to put in all that, I must say that the time taken is more than acceptable.

Can anyone tell if clutch heat has been tried in any other sim before? I can't recall any.

[Hallen]

Race clutches have stronger springs, and softer materials - they wear quickly, but they transmit the torque effectively. But it means that they are difficult to balance on the biting point, and feel like they are either on or off. They are also noisier, as the plates can flutter and vibrate when the clutch is disengaged.

Road clutches are designed to be long lasting and easy to use - softer springs, built in drive cushioning, and harder more predicable materials.

Add to that a race engine is peaky (not much torque/driveability low down), and they can be tricky to move away in.

Also, don't forget that the race flywheel is generally much lighter than in a standard car. This means less inertia when trying to mate the clutch plate to the flywheel which will make it much more difficult to pull away smoothly. I think this leads to more of the smoothness problems than the clutch material will. It also demands better rev matching on shifts because RPM will drop more quickly with the clutch in than it would on a street car.

[mrodgers]

^ Also known as the multiple times mentioned "flatshifting" ;)
Yes, thus with auto clutch, we will now just not flatshift. With the computer automatically working the clutch, there is no human error in slipping the clutch accidentally, so without flatshifting, I wonder where overheating with the autoclutch will fall.

As I said, advantage still goes to auto clutchers (aka, Me :D)

I certainly hope to sway advantage towards the clutch users, or to fair it up anyways, the auto clutch isn't changed to be so ridiculously slow to be unrealistic like in so many other titles. Racer's auto clutch comes to mind, ridiculously and unrealistically slow. Just needing to lift on the throttle to shift doesn't sound to me to make it more even for the clutch users.

Again, I'm talking tintops and not the open wheelers. Road cars and GTRs are what I care about. I certainly hope as well that, for in the future and the possiblility of me getting a G25 (unlikely), the GTRs are not force to be sequential only. I care less about 900 degrees and better steering, clutch and h-shifter is what I want, badly.

[tristancliffe]

Yes, all good points too. You win a small cookie (which you'll find at your local cookie emporium - tell them I sent you).

[MRSisson]

For anyone using the text version of LFS, the patch will add the following message:
"You become aware of a distrinctly non-rubber burning smell. What do you want to do?"

I would read a scroll of Enchant Drivetrain, while confused.


(I've been playing waaaaaay too much Nethack lately.)

[DaveWS]

Yes, thus with auto clutch, we will now just not flatshift. With the computer automatically working the clutch, there is no human error in slipping the clutch accidentally, so without flatshifting, I wonder where overheating with the autoclutch will fall.

As I said, advantage still goes to auto clutchers (aka, Me :D)

I certainly hope to sway advantage towards the clutch users, or to fair it up anyways, the auto clutch isn't changed to be so ridiculously slow to be unrealistic like in so many other titles. Racer's auto clutch comes to mind, ridiculously and unrealistically slow. Just needing to lift on the throttle to shift doesn't sound to me to make it more even for the clutch users.

Again, I'm talking tintops and not the open wheelers. Road cars and GTRs are what I care about. I certainly hope as well that, for in the future and the possiblility of me getting a G25 (unlikely), the GTRs are not force to be sequential only. I care less about 900 degrees and better steering, clutch and h-shifter is what I want, badly.

What if when the clutch is re-engaged after a flatshift, the speed difference between the engine and drivetrain causes the clutch to slip?

[Shotglass]

For anyone using the text version of LFS, the patch will add the following message:
"You become aware of a distrinctly non-rubber burning smell. What do you want to do?"

grues would be fare more realistic for hanks track than those silly bears and octopi

[AndroidXP]

Yes, thus with auto clutch, we will now just not flatshift. With the computer automatically working the clutch, there is no human error in slipping the clutch accidentally, so without flatshifting, I wonder where overheating with the autoclutch will fall.Auto-clutch does not "cure" flatshifting clutch problems - throttle cut does. The problem is not slow or sloppy engaging of the clutch, but the clutch slipping because it can't cope with the excess forces caused by the revved up engine (flywheel) that now needs to be slowed down to wheel/transmission speed again.

[thisnameistaken]

I certainly hope to sway advantage towards the clutch users, or to fair it up anyways,

As a clutch user, I personally couldn't give a toss. If someone is quicker than me then they're quicker than me - if that's because they're using easier controls then I need to get better with my controls.

If we give faster shifts to people with fancy hardware, we're essentially letting people buy an advantage. Currently, people with fancy hardware can still switch it off and go with two pedals and paddles if they want to and the playing field is level, but if it goes the other way then everybody will have to buy a G25 or build ghetto hardware to keep up. That would be bad.

[Blackout]

So how will the increased engine inertia add up to this clutch/gear changing thing?

Changing gears and matching the revs is easier?

[JTbo]

Four blade race clutch (much easier to use than 3 blade, but handles bit less torque commonly)
http://www.gg-quad-northamerica.com/Parts/Sinter%20Clutch%20Disk.jpg

Normal type of clutch
http://www.global-b2b-network.com/direct/dbimage/50104346/Clutch_Disc__395_.jpg


See difference in contact area, typical road car clutch have big contact area which make it durable and easy to operate.
Race clutch has much less surface area, which means more pressure but also operation is more harsh as clutch bites better.
Also note that smaller surface area last less time and will warm up quicker.

Now clutch sits between flywheel (which is kind of disc of steel bolted to crankshaft) and pressure plate and is squeezed against flywheel by pressure plate springs, when you push clutch pedal down clutch disc moves away from flywheel. Flywheel rotates at engine speed and clutch rotates at speed of transmission affected by gearing and gearbox rotating speed is affected by powered wheel speed.

Now there is lot of different situations you can think about and every time you find engine and transmission to be or try to be rotating at different speed there is potential slip in clutch. Clutch resists slipping so much that it can handle torque and if you push clutch pedal you can modulate amount of torque it can handle, all the way to 0nm of torque.

[Blackout]

See difference in contact area, typical road car clutch have big contact area which make it durable and easy to operate.
Race clutch has much less surface area, which means more pressure but also operation is more harsh as clutch bites better.
Also note that smaller surface area last less time and will warm up quicker.
Nice comparison pictures, and that actually makes sense in terms of physics I can remember. I think the left handed ape might have been a slight understatement, but it doesn't kill so whatever. :)

[mrodgers]

Auto-clutch does not "cure" flatshifting clutch problems - throttle cut does. The problem is not slow or sloppy engaging of the clutch, but the clutch slipping because it can't cope with the excess forces caused by the revved up engine (flywheel) that now needs to be slowed down to wheel/transmission speed again.
Yes, I know that about the flatshifting/throttle cut relation. Under normal circumstances, you would not have excessive heat in the clutch if driven normally and close enough to rev matching. On road cars, it is even better because of the clutch being designed to tolerate slipping due to the need for longevity. With auto clutch, the thought of rev matching and perfect clutch to flywheel engagement is done with one foot lifting the throttle and the computer working the clutch. You only need to worry about your right foot and when to change gears. But with using a G25, the user needs to worry about clutching properly with left foot while cutting throttle and switching gears, a lot more room for error. I just fail to see how you would get excessive heat in the clutch if using auto clutch.

I think that it indeed has everything to do with slow or sloppy engaging of the clutch, the human user operating the clutch and shifting poorly is the reason for the excessive forces upon upshifting. Or perhaps, I just have false understanding of the relationship of rotational speed between the output shaft, input shaft of the transmission and output shaft of the motor :shrug:

We'll see come closer to Christmas how it all works out, eh? :D

There's been plenty of times that, due to wearing my work boots catching on the carpet mat, or whatever, that my foot has gotten stuck while letting out the clutch IRL and caused me to very excessively slip the clutch. If I had auto clutch in my real car, it would never happen, thus human error will never happen with autoclutch in a racing sim.

[AndroidXP]

Well, of course there's "more to do" with auto-clutch disabled, but it's like no difference at all once you're used to it. Also, the occasional mis-shifts or not perfectly matched revs hardly contribute to clutch overheating in a significant manner. The only things that do are reaaaaally slow clutch engagement (which never happens during a race, unless you're a special kind of muppet) or flatshifting.

Auto-clutch doesn't make a difference to how screwed up your clutch gets when constantly flatshifting - what I mean is, if you keep the foot planted on the throttle then it's irrelevant how fast you release the clutch, if anything auto-clutch is making it worse due to operating the clutch slower. If you remove throttle when shifting then it's not flatshifting anymore, which was the main point as far as I can tell :D.

[Apoc112]

so what these changes might mean to an auto-clutch driver like myself is that IF we're effected by the clutch slip/heat issue, we may have to tweak our throttle cut settings (or become accustomed to actually lifting throttle) to shift, right? i think that's awesome...

[AndroidXP]

Yes, the point is: clutch heat = no more flatshifting.

(No matter what helps you use, unless it's throttle cut, but with that enabled you can't flatshift at all anyway)

[thisnameistaken]

Yes, the point is: clutch heat = no more flatshifting.

Chalk up another point for the LX4 over the TBOs then. :thumb:

[Apoc112]

i like that this adds a level of tunability... before there was really no point to having throttle cut enabled, but now we'll have to tune it to optimize performance without burning the clutch.

[zak_mull]

Clutch damage is possible, like when you hit clutch down then shift then hit the sift as clutch is almost fully open?

that can damage it......

[Chris P]

Power = n x Torque x rpm, and I wanted an rpmless unit :p

Is it not:
P = 2(pi) * Torque * n
???

[tristancliffe]

In my equation, n = constants, including gearing; in your equation n = rpm

[StewartFisher]

In my equation, n = constants, including gearing; in your equation n = rpmHow does gearing affect power output? :scratchch
Is it not:
P = 2(pi) * Torque * nWell, if 'n' is RPM (it commonly is) then that's true, although you'd have to be careful about units. If you had torque in Nm and RPM in...well...RPM, then the units of power would be Joules/minute rather than the more usual Joules/sec (i.e. Watts).

[tristancliffe]

I was measuring torque at the wheels (which is where most of us do), and converting to engine power (i.e. wheel rpm - engine rpm). I'm not one of these retards that believes Engine Torque figures from rolling roads :D

[J.B.]

I'm guessing it will go like this:

-if you try to shift with your foot flat on the power the gear won't change.

-in cars with sequential boxes you will need to lift off to shift up

-in cars with H-boxes you will need to lift off and press clutch to shift up

-both lifting and clutching can be done by driving helps but will result in slightly slower shifts than a perfect manual shift

But I don't really see where clutch temperature comes into play. Maybe just to stop the manual clutchers from being ultra aggressive?

EDIT: Hang on, maybe it's to stop the unrealistic machine gun downchanging!

[tristancliffe]

And maybe to stop crazy clutch slipping exploits in powerful cars? Or to allow optimum clutch temps for the Sauber (too cold = crap, too hot = fail)?

[AndroidXP]

I was measuring torque at the wheelsThat raises the question, why would you do that when the topic was the torque acting on the clutch? ;) :D

[Not Sure]

informative posts :thumb: ^^

just one thing i noticed from the translation:

3h_box_hpat H-pattern gearbox
3h_box_bike motorbike gearbox
3h_box_sequ sequential gearbox
3h_box_seqi sequential gearbox with ignition cut
3h_box_semi paddle shift gearbox
3h_seq_hpat sequential operation of H-pattern gearboxany new additions here? a longshot yeah..


also i think more engine inertia means that the flywheel does not slow down so fast / engine resists the change in rpm more.

this will heat the clutch if the driver doesn't lift off the throttle. not rev matching properly will maybe upset the car more..

i hope the new physics will reward skillfull heel-toeing and make clutchless shifts more realistic.

i can't wait! :hyper:

yet i don't think auto-clutch users are in any significant disadvantage as the heat/damage is basically about throttle control. yeah, not everybody has a clutch pedal - why not use a button clutch? that's like.. not so much like cheating.. :hide:

[richo]

I sold auto parts for close to twenty years, when a normal car clutch is abused it tends to glaze the clutch plate which makes the two surfaces slip or produce hotspots on the pressure plate that cause shudder.

When there really abused i have seen the springs broken in the clutch plate and the fingers busted off the pressure plate.

Not to mention the thrust bearing can collapse or the pilot bearing in the flywheel can seize through heat.

Brass button style clutches offer minimal slippage but are utter pigs to get of the line, because there is next to no slip in them.

The clutch plate can also glaze up because it wasn't bedded in properly , very similar to brake pads doing the same thing.

I,m hoping this patch brings more reality into clutches and shifting , and that horrible sound of flats shifting is a thing of the past.

One last thing we got to play with a clutch setup out of an F1 car that Daikan made , there really small but have a heap of little carbon type clutch plates,very small diameter but a fairly long unit and really light.

[KartRacer]

I'm just excited about engine inertia, hopefully no more ridiculous down shifts....like 6th-1st as fast as you can. The engine will hopefully "try harder" to keep rotating at the same speed, in turn making it easier to lock up or not brake quick enough. Blips will be more important. Hotlappers were taking advantage of the ability to "shock" the auto-clutch system by down shifting extremely fast, this would keep the clutch in until it reached the car needed for the corner, like skip shifting with an H-pattern. In a real sequential you cannot "skip" shift, you must blip each down shift. Even in an H-pattern gearbox you can still clutch less down shift. Hopefully driving with the auto-clutch off and with out using it in the formula cars will be possible.

[tristancliffe]

That raises the question, why would you do that when the topic was the torque acting on the clutch? ;) :D

Ssshhh you, I'm trying to climb out of this hole, and you're not helping! :D

[legoflamb]

I think there is no advantage for either clutchless-sequential, or clutched shifts because of the updates to the clutch and sequential simulation, and more engine inertia.

This seems so, in that the clutch shift may be able to full throttle shift however, intern will cause a lot of slipage in the clutch caused by the updated engine and engine damage. In the same effect, the sequential shift now requires throttle lift in order to shift, also causing the compression to slow the car, if not timed correctly, diminishing its advantage over the clutch shift.

Both seem to have the same effect, although there may be some advantages for either not clear at the moment.

[ajp71]

I think what NotSure has found is very significant.


3h_box_hpat H-pattern gearbox
3h_box_bike motorbike gearbox
3h_box_sequ sequential gearbox
3h_box_seqi sequential gearbox with ignition cut
3h_box_semi paddle shift gearbox
3h_seq_hpat sequential operation of H-pattern gearbox

The ignition cut option sounds like a replacement to the throttle cut option and by the sounds of it will only be available in cars with a sequential gearbox. It sounds like for the H pattern cars we aren't going to get that luxury.

Personally I can't see a great advantage for a shifter over a sequentially shifted H pattern seeing as 90% of cars are shifted in a sequential sequence on a track anyway, the only possible advantage being using an unconventional pattern (ie. putting a lower gear in a high slot to allow for quick shifting for certain parts of a track). Hopefully however these new changes will be enough to convince me to build myself a proper 3 pedal setup :)

[z3r0c00l]

I want a lightened flywheel in my car - it takes a week for the engine rpm to drop of its own accord!

[deggis]

The ignition cut option sounds like a replacement to the throttle cut option and by the sounds of it will only be available in cars with a sequential gearbox. It sounds like for the H pattern cars we aren't going to get that luxury.
I found these too and posted to the other thread, thinking I was the first one to find them, just to found out that they were already posted here :D In addition to those, there are these lines:

3h_tip_rtcg Release the throttle when changing gear to avoid overheating the clutch
3h_thisnost This car does not have a starter motor


Also seems like throttle cut is now a real feature instead of driving aid... because auto cut and blip options are gone! The string commands for these are missing from the new translation (unlike in patch x language file). I doubt renaming to something unrecognizable. BTW: auto clutch and brake help are still there.

We'll see what this means in the end but... would be stupid to wash down the toilet the new features by leaving auto cut as it is. Altough I'm suspicous about the blipping: doing it manually too, even with auto clutch? LFS finally goes hardcore? At least this way auto clutchers would get less advantage for doing less.

But what does this very likely removal mean for keyboard/mousers? So far if you have chosen keyboard as the controller, the blip/cut options in the options have been invisible and always enabled. I sure hope that would not be the case anymore. Can you think of getting passed by keyboard player on the straight, just because they are doing LESS but still always getting optimal upshifting? *waiting for keyboard players to flame me* :mad:

[AndroidXP]

What I find most intriguing is the line "This car does not have a starter motor". Now THAT will be interesting. So in some cars, once you've stalled you're screwed :D. Maybe that's the case for the new FB02?

[geeman1]

I hope that's true. Auto cut and blip really don't make any sense to me. Hopefully keyboard/mouse users will have those disabled too. It's not really that hard to blip / cut the throttle manually anyway, no matter what controller.

[tristancliffe]

The new car should have a starter motor (I'd wager). As would the FOX, and quite possibly the F08 (I can't remember if F3000 cars had starters - I think some did, some didn't). The Sauber we all know won't, of course.

[deggis]

What I find most intriguing is the line "This car does not have a starter motor". Now THAT will be interesting. So in some cars, once you've stalled you're screwed :D.
Mini game: keep the engine running and get crane help or "EPIC FAIL" (replicating the Hamilton scene from Nurburgring).

[Fabri91]

The new car should have a starter motor (I'd wager). As would the FOX, and quite possibly the F08 (I can't remember if F3000 cars had starters - I think some did, some didn't). The Sauber we all know won't, of course.

We have to remember that many f1 cars (if not all) have an anti-stall thingy...

[StewartFisher]

We have to remember that many f1 cars (if not all) have an anti-stall thingy...That system declutches the engine if it thinks it's about to stall. I'd hope we have something similar in LFS, though things go wrong too fast it might not react in time to prevent a stall.

[tristancliffe]

Just like in real life - it's still possible to stall an F1 car even with anti-stall.

[z3r0c00l]

Many fuel injected engines have a rudiemntary anti-stall mechanism. I'm not sure why, but when I gently lift the clutch on my car at idle, gradually pulling away at 800rpm, if I sink the clutch quickly, the revs climb for a moment up to 1,200 before dropping back down, as if it was adding a little bit of fuel to stop the revs dropping too low.

If the engine simulation has got as far as modelling fuel injector behavior, and the time it takes from injector in the plenum to reach the cylinder I'll be very suprised though.

(edit : tristan will correct something I've said, so I'm going to leave a gap for that...)








I would have thought going backwards with the clutch in a forwards gear as a result of a spin would be enough to stall any engine, no matter how "anti-stall" capable.

Looking at old footage of the turbo formula one cars, I wouldn't be suprised if the turbo GTR cut out on the start line of its own accord!

[StewartFisher]

Many fuel injected engines have a rudiemntary anti-stall mechanism. I'm not sure why, but when I gently lift the clutch on my car at idle, gradually pulling away at 800rpm, if I sink the clutch quickly, the revs climb for a moment up to 1,200 before dropping back down, as if it was adding a little bit of fuel to stop the revs dropping too low.I'm not sure if it's intended as an 'anti-stall' system, but fuel injected cars will control their idle speed to a given setpoint. As you load the engine by feeding in the clutch the engine will have to put in more fuel to maintain idle speed. It's possible that if you dump the clutch too aggressively that the engine would move to a higher idle speed to avoid a stall.

[ajp71]

The new car should have a starter motor (I'd wager). As would the FOX, and quite possibly the F08 (I can't remember if F3000 cars had starters - I think some did, some didn't). The Sauber we all know won't, of course.

I think all cars (including the BF1?) will have onboard starter motors as they are obligated to in series regulations. The issue come because most do not have an alternator and small batteries, so only have a limited number of starts before they flatten the battery. In the larger cars the starter motor may not be able to turn the engine without a slave at all.

Many fuel injected engines have a rudiemntary anti-stall mechanism. I'm not sure why, but when I gently lift the clutch on my car at idle, gradually pulling away at 800rpm, if I sink the clutch quickly, the revs climb for a moment up to 1,200 before dropping back down, as if it was adding a little bit of fuel to stop the revs dropping too low.

That's simply the effect of disconnecting the resistance of the gearbox.

[tristancliffe]

I think all cars (including the BF1?) will have onboard starter motors as they are obligated to in series regulations.Not F1 cars - they don't have to have a starter motor, and they don't fit one. The starter plugs directly into the gearbox and turns the cranky shafty.

No idea on the correction I was meant to do a post or two above though :shrug:

[Mille Sabords]

I use the mouse to drive and keyboard for throttle / brake / clutch.
I tried to blip on downshift (XRG only...) like this and it's hell. Looking forward to it :)
At the moment I do not get enough incentive to be persistent at it, this might be the time!

If LFS goes this hardcore way then it will probably be general nightmare for a few weeks, and excellent fun in close races for all the missshifts and slipping pedals / fingers.
I wonder how that would affect longer races / leagues?

[mrodgers]

If LFS goes this hardcore way then it will probably be general nightmare for a few weeks, and excellent fun in close races for all the missshifts and slipping pedals / fingers.
I wonder how that would affect longer races / leagues?
I don't think so. There aren't that many keyboard/mouse users. And the folks who have a clutch have been using them for quite some time, so I would think it won't be that big of a deal. For us with no clutch, doesn't really affect us other than we lift the right foot a bit to shift instead of flatshifting. Simple to do.

[ACCAkut]

I don't quite understand how the racestart is changed by the new clutch modell. How will it be possible to start the car only with button clutch? In the weak cars like the UF1 IMo its impossible without a pedal.

[Mikkel Petersen]

I don't quite understand how the racestart is changed by the new clutch modell. How will it be possible to start the car only with button clutch? In the weak cars like the UF1 IMo its impossible without a pedal.
If you just floor it, it won't be problem. Trust me, right now I drive in a 1.0 litre 55 hp car which weighs 900 kg and it dosen't have a problem with burning rubber.

[Not Sure]

I don't quite understand how the racestart is changed by the new clutch modell. How will it be possible to start the car only with button clutch? In the weak cars like the UF1 IMo its impossible without a pedal.

i just tried launching the uf1 with mouse and keyboard:

no problems, autoclutch (anti-stall) didn't kick in if i kept the revs above few thoushand rpm. so it shouldn't stall. button control rate at 4.00

[[RF]-art555]

UF1 won't stall unless you do something stupid IMO, even with some long gears set, when you start off, wheels spin a bit while RPMs go down to about 3-4k and then you are continuing accelerating finely.

[mrodgers]

Since when do road cars stall at under 4000 rpm? You should be able to start the UF1 (all road cars) with rpms at or even under 1000 rpm. It's if you dump the clutch without enough revs that it would stall. Just ease off the clutch and hold the rpm at 1000, should be fine. If not, then more work needs to be done (which I imagine more work on specific features will be in the barrage of Y2-xx test patches)

[deggis]

For us with no clutch, doesn't really affect us other than we lift the right foot a bit to shift instead of flatshifting. Simple to do.
Don't forget the blipping, because option for it has been removed from the translation files... if it means exactly that ingame too.

Ever tried manually blipping? It takes surprisingly long time to get used to do. Add engine damage to this and braking for a corner starts to be quite a lot more interesting! :)

I don't quite understand how the racestart is changed by the new clutch modell. How will it be possible to start the car only with button clutch? In the weak cars like the UF1 IMo its impossible without a pedal.
I very highly doubt this is included, but there is a VERY SIMPLE solution to this: "Change brake pedal to clutch pedal" feature.

In the start the brake pedal could be a clutch by default (as there is that magical handbrake keeping the car so you don't need brake anyway), then after you start you press some specific button and the game configures the pedal back to brake. Or maybe even automatically after the start.

It's already possible to do with Vain's clutch start script (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=10956), why not integrating it to the game by default? Could be very innovative feature and even for all users (well, here comes to keyboarders to the picture :shrug:). Only problem could be combined pedals but who actively plays with those anyway...


.

[dav rc]

I very highly doubt this is included, but there is a VERY SIMPLE solution to this: "Change brake pedal to clutch pedal" feature.

In the start the brake pedal could be a clutch by default (as there is that magical handbrake keeping the car so you don't need brake anyway), then after you start you press some specific button and the game configures the pedal back to brake. Or maybe even automatically after the start.


Oh! :thumb: Please, someone do this! :D

[mrodgers]

Don't forget the blipping, because option for it has been removed from the translation files... if it means exactly that ingame too.

Ever tried manually blipping? It takes surprisingly long time to get used to do. Add engine damage to this and braking for a corner starts to be quite a lot more interesting! :)
Psst, as been pointed out, there was no word on added engine damage :razz:

I turned throttle cut and blip off in March of 2005, suspiciously the same date that shows under my user name :D.

Now that I think about all the speculation on the forums, it seems that everything talked about is assuming sequential shift. Not all cars should need any change in throttle if using the clutch. You especially shouldn't need the use of throttle blip to downshift. The throttle blip is to rev match so you don't lock the drive wheels up under braking mostly.

[deggis]

Psst, as been pointed out, there was no word on added engine damage :razz:
Eh, I meant when that gets added in "near future" (whatever that means in LFS terms)

I turned throttle cut and blip off in March of 2005, suspiciously the same date that shows under my user name :D.
Good :)

[UncleBenny]

Now that engine stalling is going to be implemented and people will have to make sure the starter button is mapped, I wish when you join in the garage (practice/qualify), then engine was off and you had to start it yourself. I'm guessing this could probably be done with a script but I feel like you'd hear the engine shutting down which would ruin the effect.

[z3r0c00l]

That's simply the effect of disconnecting the resistance of the gearbox.



Naturally, but it does try to maintain engine rpm above stalling speed by adding more fuel. Otherwise it would not climb above the idle speed when resistance is removed. Acceleration has no inertia. As gentle as it is, it does try to stop you stalling.

Part of me thinks it is so you can move the car around your drive at home without having to use any gas.

I wonder if they have actually mapped fuel injection... I want that nice burble you get when on over-run, why does that happen? I would've though pulse width modulation would allow the shut off to be instant?

[word.]

I wonder if we will be able to crash start the cars with the new gearbox and clutch physics? Who knows :shrug:

[ajp71]

Naturally, but it does try to maintain engine rpm above stalling speed by adding more fuel. Otherwise it would not climb above the idle speed when resistance is removed. Acceleration has no inertia. As gentle as it is, it does try to stop you stalling.


The engine is producing a fairly constant force acting against the force of the resistance in the gearbox. When you lift off that clutch you reduce the resistive force in the engine/gearbox. This causes the engine to accelerate until the forces are balanced again. It will happen in any car regardless of whether it's running fuel injection or not. Whilst you could have an advanced anti-stall throttle management system I'm almost certain no modern car deploys such a system, partly because it would result in learner cars across the country taking off with full throttle starts and partly because managing the clutch (as racing anti-stall systems work) is far more sensible and safer.

[Origamiboy]

Wow, this thread has really taken off! Its made for an interesting read and I've learned a lot, thanks a lot. :)

:thumb:

[vane]

this is all the more reason for scawen to give us all free g25s for being loyal alpha testers :P

[Bob Smith]

this is all the more reason for scawen to give us all free g25s for being loyal alpha testers :P
Nah, I don't have room for another one. :razz:

[JTbo]

That guy with numbers in his name said:
Naturally, but it does try to maintain engine rpm above stalling speed by adding more fuel.

It does open throttle a bit, either via throttle butterfly or via idle motor/valve, fuel is adjusted to match increased amount of air.

It won't just add fuel, that would be silly and not very helpful :nod:

[mrodgers]

LMAO! I'm in single player right now attempting to drive with a clutch. Took me a while with DXTweak since my 2nd pedal set is a very old Thrustmaster T2 with combined axis, but I've got it working. Now, if only I could left foot brake, let alone heel-toe and clutch and downshift all at the same time! This is hysterical!

Next step I think is getting the squashball back in there so I don't have as much of an axis on the brake pedal. High stiffness + high braking force in setup is pretty good for pressure sensitive braking.

Ok, accelerate, clutch, shift... accelerate, clutch, shift... accelerate......... clutch, blip, downshift... clutch, blip, downshift... clutch, blip, downshift... WOA! WALL! BRAKE BRAKE BRAAAAAAAAAKKKKKEEEEE!!!!! :D

[Hallen]

Yeah, the problem with heal-toe on pedal sets is usually the brake is much lower than the gas pedal when you are braking. This makes it hard to get you foot over the gas pedal to blip it.

I also find that I am much more awkward trying to brake with my right foot than my left when I am driving LFS. I have gotten so used to left foot braking and to using throttle at the same time to stabilize the car, that it makes things harder when I right foot brake.

And I do have ECCI pedals with the clutch. It is definitely better than the standard DFP pedals, but it is still difficult to heal toe. I will figure something out. I have been needing to do it anyway.

[thisnameistaken]

I also find that I am much more awkward trying to brake with my right foot than my left when I am driving LFS. I have gotten so used to left foot braking and to using throttle at the same time to stabilize the car, that it makes things harder when I right foot brake.

I'm the opposite. I find it really hard to left-foot brake in LFS because I have such generously-proportioned genitalia. It's not comfortable to have my legs that close together all the time.

Same reason I had to turn down the second McLaren seat.

[Riders Motion]

I'm guessing it will go like this:

-if you try to shift with your foot flat on the power the gear won't change.

-in cars with sequential boxes you will need to lift off to shift up

-in cars with H-boxes you will need to lift off and press clutch to shift up

-both lifting and clutching can be done by driving helps but will result in slightly slower shifts than a perfect manual shift

But I don't really see where clutch temperature comes into play. Maybe just to stop the manual clutchers from being ultra aggressive?

EDIT: Hang on, maybe it's to stop the unrealistic machine gun downchanging!

That sucks big time for peoples without a clutch like me ... :schwitz:

[wien]

That sucks big time for peoples without a clutch like me ... :schwitz:You ignored his very next point. If you don't have a clutch, you activate auto-clutch and it clutches for you (but perhaps slower than you would be able to yourself).

[mrodgers]

Yeah, the problem with heal-toe on pedal sets is usually the brake is much lower than the gas pedal when you are braking. This makes it hard to get you foot over the gas pedal to blip it.

I also find that I am much more awkward trying to brake with my right foot than my left when I am driving LFS. I have gotten so used to left foot braking and to using throttle at the same time to stabilize the car, that it makes things harder when I right foot brake.

And I do have ECCI pedals with the clutch. It is definitely better than the standard DFP pedals, but it is still difficult to heal toe. I will figure something out. I have been needing to do it anyway.
I am finding this out right now. It is impossible for me to hit the throttle while braking. Physically impossible. I don't have my pedals on the floor. I built a platform to raise them to so my legs are not straight down in an 'office chair seating' position. I simply now don't have the room to move my heel up and onto the throttle, my knee hits the bottom of my keyboard tray (I'm not removing it, keyboard would be in my lap then :D).

I think I have my first LFS injury. I seriously think I pulled something trying to get my heel onto the throttle while braking, LOL. I'm not the most flexible in the world here.

Pedal base still needs to be raised, and pushed farther away to be comfortable. That will put my knees into the desk even more.

Darn, this is difficult. Not to mention the 'panic' brake where I just slam the clutch down reverting back to left foot braking in my mind, LOL.

Why is it so easy, simple, and second nature in a real car, but the simple concept of doing it is so difficult in front of a computer, LOL.

Oh, and to top it off, I keep wanting to shift my MOMO sequential shifter like an H-shifter, LOL.

[Zachary Zoomy]

Oh, and to top it off, I keep wanting to shift my MOMO sequential shifter like an H-shifter, LOL.

lol, me too. thank goodness I asked Santa for an ActLabs shifter.

[thisnameistaken]

I simply now don't have the room to move my heel up and onto the throttle, my knee hits the bottom of my keyboard tray (I'm not removing it, keyboard would be in my lap then :D).

Yeah my keyboard tray is pretty close when heel/toeing too. You'll probably find though that with practice you don't need to move your foot so much though - you don't actually want to plonk your heel flat on the pedal, you can probably just "squidge" the side of the pedal with the edge of your foot and it should be enough.

[mrodgers]

.....you can probably just "squidge" the side of the pedal with the edge of your foot and it should be enough.
1. squidge

When a cat stretches and claws the area where its about to sleep. Like people fluff a pillow before they lay down.


I'm not going to stretch and claw my throttle pedal before I heel-toe....

:D

[thisnameistaken]

Rubbish definition! Squidging is the result of the meeting of one firm surface with one squishy one. Foot + pedal, nose + window, spider + steel-toe-capped boot.

[tailing]

mrodgers it probably depends on the way the pedals are layed out but I brake using the ball of my foot below the big toe. To blip the throttle I basically just flick my ankle to the right, my foot pivots on the ball and the outside of my foot naturally presses on the throttle. This way you don't have to move your leg at all and thus it makes it much easier to apply constant brake pressure.
Heel-toe is a bit of a misnomer and apparently originates from an old car with a totally different pedal arrangement, I would say the vast majority of people when they heel-toe don't use their heel at all but rather some part of the outside edge of the foot.

Another tip for learning that helped me at the time was to actually sit down at the wheel and pretend I was driving, imagine I was coming to a braking area and slowly go through each motion, eg. apply brake, apply clutch, change gear, blip throttle, disengage clutch, engage clutch, change gear, blip throttle etc. etc. You can do imaginary laps of your favourite track, slowly speeding up the process.
When you try learning in game as you've found out you come to a braking area and you muddle things up and next thing your in a wall. :D

[spankmeyer]

LMAO! I'm in single player right now attempting to drive with a clutch. Took me a while with DXTweak since my 2nd pedal set is a very old Thrustmaster T2 with combined axis, but I've got it working. Now, if only I could left foot brake, let alone heel-toe and clutch and downshift all at the same time! This is hysterical!

Next step I think is getting the squashball back in there so I don't have as much of an axis on the brake pedal. High stiffness + high braking force in setup is pretty good for pressure sensitive braking.

Ok, accelerate, clutch, shift... accelerate, clutch, shift... accelerate......... clutch, blip, downshift... clutch, blip, downshift... clutch, blip, downshift... WOA! WALL! BRAKE BRAKE BRAAAAAAAAAKKKKKEEEEE!!!!! :D

Relevant to your interests: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=34481

:)

:confused:

[AeoIus]

I'm the opposite. I find it really hard to left-foot brake in LFS because I have such generously-proportioned genitalia. It's not comfortable to have my legs that close together all the time.

Same reason I had to turn down the second McLaren seat.

We all feel very sorry for you Kev :smileypul

[z3r0c00l]

mrodgers it probably depends on the way the pedals are layed out but I brake using the ball of my foot below the big toe. To blip the throttle I basically just flick my ankle to the right, my foot pivots on the ball and the outside of my foot naturally presses on the throttle. This way you don't have to move your leg at all and thus it makes it much easier to apply constant brake pressure.
Heel-toe is a bit of a misnomer and apparently originates from an old car with a totally different pedal arrangement, I would say the vast majority of people when they heel-toe don't use their heel at all but rather some part of the outside edge of the foot.

Another tip for learning that helped me at the time was to actually sit down at the wheel and pretend I was driving, imagine I was coming to a braking area and slowly go through each motion, eg. apply brake, apply clutch, change gear, blip throttle, disengage clutch, engage clutch, change gear, blip throttle etc. etc. You can do imaginary laps of your favourite track, slowly speeding up the process.
When you try learning in game as you've found out you come to a braking area and you muddle things up and next thing your in a wall. :D


The method you first describe is great for all the pedal setups pc wheels come with, I had to change to this one because my accelerator pedal in the BMW is hinged at the bottom.

In the Mazda, all the pedals swung under from the footwell, and the pedals were too far apart to rock right to blip, so I would rotate my foot and use the right hand side of my heel.

The trouble I find, it that I have to push hard on my brakes in the car, and I've got a remarkably stiff throttle pedal (which I'm going to see the docter about later this week), so when I do it in LFS, I find myself locking up all the wheels, and then when I release some brake pressure, I find out I'm also at WOT and the car goes "what the hell kind of transition is that!? I'm going to take this corner backwards to teach you a lesson."

anti-stall - obviously it doesn't just add more fuel, it opens some stupid butterfly arrangement controlled by a servo (for cruise control as well) which allows more air to be sucked in, the air mass sensor detects this and adds more fuel to maintain the right mixture, thus giving more power out the engine.

[Weed]

I'm the opposite. I find it really hard to left-foot brake in LFS because I have such generously-proportioned genitalia. It's not comfortable to have my legs that close together all the time.

Same reason I had to turn down the second McLaren seat.

lmfao :D

[HVS5b]

LMAO! I'm in single player right now attempting to drive with a clutch. Took me a while with DXTweak since my 2nd pedal set is a very old Thrustmaster T2 with combined axis, but I've got it working. Now, if only I could left foot brake, let alone heel-toe and clutch and downshift all at the same time! This is hysterical!

Next step I think is getting the squashball back in there so I don't have as much of an axis on the brake pedal. High stiffness + high braking force in setup is pretty good for pressure sensitive braking.

Ok, accelerate, clutch, shift... accelerate, clutch, shift... accelerate......... clutch, blip, downshift... clutch, blip, downshift... clutch, blip, downshift... WOA! WALL! BRAKE BRAKE BRAAAAAAAAAKKKKKEEEEE!!!!! :D


Lol, it's great innit :nod:

The other night I had a shot with the G25 on 720* steering, H gate shifter, manual clutch whilst sat in a BRD race frame with a 46" HD LCD tv attached to the frame. Tell you what, it was sooooo real that it all came naturally, just like IRL. The course was FB rallyX, I highly recommend it :D

Back in my own house it's much more difficult to create that level of immersion in a computer chair and 19" monitor..........and much more difficult to drive with all the thingumies switched on:schwitz:

[mrodgers]

Now, if only I could left foot brake, let alone heel-toe and clutch and downshift all at the same time! This is hysterical!
Just to note, that was an error about left foot braking. It was right foot braking I meant to say......

Been driving a manual since I got my license (1988). No need to heel-toe out on the roads driving to work. I'm amazed at how difficult it is just to use clutch and simply right foot brake even without heel-toe shifting sitting in front of a computer when I've been driving IRL like that for 19 years. I can't left foot brake for my life in a real car. :D

Yes, I understand the concept and the motions. I started receiving an extreme cramp in my thigh no matter how I tried to reach the throttle while braking.

Spankmeister, I've already watched the first two posted vids. Good thread start there. It will be interesting to watch it all.

If I rock my foot over to the throttle, it gets stuck between the pedals, too much room. If I rotate the foot to hit with the corner of my heel, the cramp comes, ouch! Can't say it's not fun trying (not on race server) as I go barreling into a barrier because I'm not stopping, LOL. I don't think you'll be wanting to see me heel-toe on a race server probably before S3 is released, hehe :razz:

[JTbo]

@mrodgers, seriously you are aiming to serious injuries like that :D

Let's see how spring goes, maybe I can join the club then :razz:

[mrodgers]

Tonight I may bolt a small extention onto the bottom of my throttle so I can reach with my heel. And, I may try using moccasin style slippers so I'm not just in socks and not in full shoes. My moccasins look like they would be a nice comprimise.

I think my main problem is what part of my foot I use on the pedal after 20 years of driving and 12 years of using a wheel in sim driving. I use my foot way too low on the brake pedal, using just under my toes (between the toes and the ball?) on the bottom of the brake pedal.

[Methyl Ethyl]

I'm thinking, again, advantage goes to auto clutchers. How can you slip the clutch if the computer is doing it for you?

Talking tintops, clutch and h-shift, I would think that the only time you would get too much heat in the clutch during racing is at any time you start from a stand still, at race start, or any time you spin out and start back out from a stand still. For me at least in my real car on public normal road driving, clutch slippage is very minimal when shifting gears.

But, I don't know how that would relate to a smaller lighter clutch in race cars or single seaters. In the road cars, if assumed a stock clutch, they are made for ordinary folks driving on ordinary roads. They are designed to take slipping on a normal stock road car.


....especially since your daily driver is an AUTOMATIC....:D:D:D:razz::razz::razz:

[mrodgers]

....especially since your daily driver is an AUTOMATIC....:D:D:D:razz::razz::razz:
Don't you go showing up on the forum after being MIA forever just because I sent you an email about this patch and harass me! You know perfectly well why I'm stuck driving an auto at the moment (next 5 years :()

:haha:

[Hallen]

....especially since your daily driver is an AUTOMATIC....:D:D:D:razz::razz::razz:

lol, jokes on you dude. Automatic transmission have a lot more clutch slippage on shifts than a manual transmission does :D The smoother shifting an automatic is, the more clutch pack it burns up for every shift.

[tristancliffe]

Unless it has a torque converter :D

[Hallen]

Unless it has a torque converter :D

Nope, even with a torque converter.

How did we get here?:really:

[tristancliffe]

Dunno! :D

A torque converter isn't a clutch (as such), so the clutch isn't slipping (nothing to slip, as such). Semantics.

[mrodgers]

How did we get here?:really:
A friend of mine appeared from beyond the woods to make fun of me.:tilt:
I've driven manuals all my life except for my first car (hand-me-down) and now since I bought my wife a new one and got her old one as a hand-me-down. 5 more years and I get myself a new one too :D. Unless I buy used, which is what we are trying to avoid.

[yoyoML]

Dunno! :D

A torque converter isn't a clutch (as such), so the clutch isn't slipping (nothing to slip, as such). Semantics.

There are clutches you know, just not at the torque converter's place. Not only one, either. There are multiple clutches in an auto box that hold various parts together for different gears. So each time an auto shifts some clutches slip.

However, I've not experienced auto boxes that are particularly smooth.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Band clutches are a bit of a different story anyway; most of the slippage happens at the torque converter. But yes, by definition there is some slip but nothing compared to a manual transmission.

[The Very End]

Ok, sorry if this has been asked before, but it`s is rather loong to read thorught it all.
I seen people moaning about new stuff with gearing, clucths and such (damage to it too). I have those cut/blips things off, and I use clutch senquental (wrong spelled) gears. Will the new patch affect this on any kind, or can I drive like I drive today, without really notice any change?

[xaotik]

From what I understand, if you shift without cutting (flat-shifting?) in cars with a sequential gearbox then it won't shift up at all. I don't know if there is going to be an option for this or not.

[The Very End]

so I really need trottle cut on upshift and downshift enabled? :)
Probally will be slower, but what the heck, new car, maybe new so config, should complain ;)

[Mille Sabords]

No, the overall opinion is that throttle cut on upshift will no more be done for you / option removed. So you will have to lift, else gear will not engage.
Throttle blip done automatically would also go away, so you will have to do it yourself (blip the throttle when you downshift, there is an interesting thread in the beginners section).
If all this happens we are in for more fun, more work and more mistakes!

[The Very End]

But how, lol I don?t understand, everytime I brake I usually steps off the trottle, thats ok enough. But also when I accelerate? Do I need to completely lift my foot off the pedal, or is it enough to just, erhm, not give full trottle? :)
Sounds interesting, going to hurt lol ;D

[Mille Sabords]

But how, lol I don?t understand, everytime I brake I usually steps off the trottle, thats ok enough. But also when I accelerate? Do I need to completely lift my foot off the pedal, or is it enough to just, erhm, not give full trottle? :)
Sounds interesting, going to hurt lol ;D
Wait and see... :drummer: show opens in a few days (drooling over keyboard at work)

[The Very End]

But I...I can`t lol! I need to know, but allllrrright :/ I`ll wait.

[ColeusRattus]

But how, lol I don?t understand, everytime I brake I usually steps off the trottle, thats ok enough. But also when I accelerate? Do I need to completely lift my foot off the pedal, or is it enough to just, erhm, not give full trottle? :)
Sounds interesting, going to hurt lol ;D

Actually, you don't accelerate when you depress the clutch, as the connection from the motor to the driven wheels is cut.

[tristancliffe]

TVE - It's very simple, but I suppose this is an example of your English skills being very poor (relative to the rest of the non-English forum users).

Accelerating - When you want to change gear you will need to lift your foot off the throttle to unload the gears - it won't have to be a complete lift, and it won't have to last very long. Just like in real life. Scawen even mentioned it SPECIFICALLY in his video. Watch it again.

Braking - This depends on Scawen's level of accuracy. If clutchless shifting whilst braking, it might require you to lift off the brakes a smidgen (to unload the gears), or a jab at the clutch. Or it might be automatic. We don't know.

Some cars have built in electronic aids, like throttle or ignition cut - the Sauber, for example, will still be a flat shifter. The FBM will require a quick lift. The road cars will (probably/hopefully) require a relatively big lift.

[LRB_Aly]

No, the overall opinion is that throttle cut on upshift will no more be done for you / option removed. So you will have to lift, else gear will not engage.
Throttle blip done automatically would also go away, so you will have to do it yourself (blip the throttle when you downshift, there is an interesting thread in the beginners section).


Sorry I didn't read the whole 5 pages of this thread, so don't shoot me if I'm asking something already asked.

You tell the general opinion is that the blip/cut will be on a manual base in future. While I'm perfectly fine with this (I blip manually most of times) on road cars and maybe even on MRT etc... , I just ask myself the question what about the F1? Or the GTR's? Will they be automatic (the F1 sure is in real life) or will they also be manual. P.S: Answered by Tristan before I could ask :)

Second thing I asked myself: What will (the new patches physics) change to the setups in general?
Will there be a tendency in making them more stable under braking or will there be no change at all, or will the gearing, what do you guys think?

[The Very End]

TVE - It's very simple, but I suppose this is an example of your English skills being very poor (relative to the rest of the non-English forum users).

Accelerating - When you want to change gear you will need to lift your foot off the throttle to unload the gears - it won't have to be a complete lift, and it won't have to last very long. Just like in real life. Scawen even mentioned it SPECIFICALLY in his video. Watch it again.

Braking - This depends on Scawen's level of accuracy. If clutchless shifting whilst braking, it might require you to lift off the brakes a smidgen (to unload the gears), or a jab at the clutch. Or it might be automatic. We don't know.

Some cars have built in electronic aids, like throttle or ignition cut - the Sauber, for example, will still be a flat shifter. The FBM will require a quick lift. The road cars will (probably/hopefully) require a relatively big lift.

Oh really, please shut the **** up about my english knowlege, will you? I allready said that it ain`t good, and you have allready said it 3 times, no need for more, ok? Most users can easely just by looking at my post see that it ain`t a english master brain behind it, but there is no need to use that against me everytime I asking for something, or for that matter, speaks.

Belived that you got a reminder in the other topic regarding other users.

Anyway, I got it, I understand, thank you.

[thisnameistaken]

Oh really, please shut the **** up about my english knowlege, will you?

There's nothing wrong with your English, dude. You're coming through loud and clear, embarrassing many of the natives.

It's your taste in music that's bad. :hide:

[Methyl Ethyl]

lol, jokes on you dude. Automatic transmission have a lot more clutch slippage on shifts than a manual transmission does :D The smoother shifting an automatic is, the more clutch pack it burns up for every shift.

Have you ever seen Nighthawk drive a manual tranny!!!!??? :D:D:D

[The Very End]

There's nothing wrong with your English, dude. You're coming through loud and clear, embarrassing many of the natives.

It's your taste in music that's bad. :hide:

Lol, don`t lie, it`s readable sure, but usefull - no :p
My music taste is bad?! What?! How you dare?!

[Methyl Ethyl]

A friend of mine appeared from beyond the woods to make fun of me.:tilt:
I've driven manuals all my life except for my first car (hand-me-down) and now since I bought my wife a new one and got her old one as a hand-me-down. 5 more years and I get myself a new one too :D. Unless I buy used, which is what we are trying to avoid.


We haven't been friends for a long time......LOL!! :)



**** Methyl Ethyl running away for another couple months***** ;)

[deggis]

You tell the general opinion is that the blip/cut will be on a manual base in future. While I'm perfectly fine with this (I blip manually most of times) on road cars and maybe even on MRT etc... , I just ask myself the question what about the F1? Or the GTR's? Will they be automatic (the F1 sure is in real life) or will they also be manual. P.S: Answered by Tristan before I could ask :)
Addition to what Tristan said, people sherlocked from the language translation files (http://www.liveforspeed.net/lfs_translate/public_translation_viewer.php) (updated for the new patch) that there are five different kind of gearboxes: H-gate full manual, motorbike gearbox for MRT, sequential, sequential with ignition cut (does cutting automatically, likely for GTRs) and semi-auto sequential (does blip and cut automatically, for BF1). So the problem you saw does not exist. :) Difference will be now that it's a feature in the gearbox instead of driving aid (incase the cut/blip options gets removed).

[LRB_Aly]

Addition to what Tristan said, people sherlocked from the language translation files (http://www.liveforspeed.net/lfs_translate/public_translation_viewer.php) (updated for the new patch) that there are five different kind of gearboxes: H-gate full manual, motorbike gearbox for MRT, sequential, sequential with ignition cut (does cutting automatically, likely for GTRs) and semi-auto sequential (does blip and cut automatically, for BF1). So the problem you saw does not exist. :) Difference will be now that the blip/cut on cars is a feature in the gearbox instead of driving aid (incase the cut/blip options gets removed).


Thank you :)

[Hallen]

Band clutches are a bit of a different story anyway; most of the slippage happens at the torque converter. But yes, by definition there is some slip but nothing compared to a manual transmission.

I know, we are way off topic, but I am having fun with this.:shrug::)

It all depends on how you shift your manual. If you feather the gear in slowly with lots of gas, then yes, a manual will slip more. But, on average, I would bet the automatic clutches will slip more than a manual clutch. I don't think the torque converter will slip much. It will probably slip no more than it would when you are fully engaged in a gear and powering down the road. In other words, about 5%.

The torque converter is just two big fans stuck in fluid. One is turned by the engine, and the other is connected to the driveshaft going through the transmission. If you are changing gears and the transmission is essentially in neutral, the transmission side of the torque converter will speed up with RPM's of the engine (assuming there is little or no fuel cut to the engine). As the clutch starts to engage, the engine RPM will be brought back down relatively slowly until the clutch is fully engaged and then the RPM will start increasing again assuming you have not lifted off the throttle. That period of time where the RPM is dropping is the time where the clutches are slipping. The smoother the shift, the more slipping you get. This is why it can be good to get performance software for you slush box. The software will typically shorten the slipping time to allow for faster shifts and this in turn reduces the clutch wear. It will also give you more of a jerk on each shift.

The real problem area can be with the transmission that use a final clutch to directly connect the engine to the drivshaft (a "lockup clutch") and bypasses the torque converter. This removes the inefficiencies of the torque converter and allows for better gas mileage when cruising. However, if you are constantly varying your throttle position, like if you are in traffic or rolling hills, the lockup clutch is constantly engaging and disengaging getting hotter and hotter and burning up clutch material. It is usually the first clutch to fail. It also does nasty things to the transmission fluid. This is why it is really important to change slushbox fluid regularly. It is why most cars have a way to turn off the lockup clutch for city driving or towing (two different Drive modes on the gear shift).

So there is my layman's understanding of all of this. Did I mention how much I hate slushboxes? I had to remove the one from my E32 and have it rebuilt ($3000) and then reinstalled it (all by myself) all because BMW has a stupid policy of a "lifetime" fill of transmission fluid.:D

[vane]

this just makes me want a G25 :p

My moccasins look like they would be a nice comprimise

my bro learnt to drive with moccasins in a rover 100, cause his feet are so big, its like driving in socks :p

[mrodgers]

my bro learnt to drive with moccasins in a rover 100, cause his feet are so big, its like driving in socks :p
Since you quoted me there..... I just tried it tonight in moccasins. Worked very well. In just socks, my foot would just fall between the pedals. Also, having a stiffer bottom to my feet helps.

I also have the pedals mounted on a platform raising them about 4 inches in front and 6 inches in back. The angle makes it harder. I stuck a shim to raise the front a bit and it's much better.

I still wouldn't want to be doing this on a race server. Soon though, soon. Maybe I'll be ready by the patch.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

It all depends on how you shift your manual. If you feather the gear in slowly with lots of gas, then yes, a manual will slip more. But, on average, I would bet the automatic clutches will slip more than a manual clutch.

Well, the amount of slip you impose on a clutch from starting with a manual, especially on a hill is what I meant mostly. That's where the majority of the slip takes place, and of course with an auto there's none. That starting slip adds up to much more than the slip of an auto's bands by quite a lot.

I don't think the torque converter will slip much. It will probably slip no more than it would when you are fully engaged in a gear and powering down the road. In other words, about 5%.

It depends on how hard you're accelerating. If you're driving normally, there is still plenty of slack that's taken up by the converter during a shift, which is why rpms tend to stay almost nearly constant under light throttle acceleration, at least until you hit 3rd. Of course, if you floor it then the converter is stalled constantly and there is more clutch slip. Unless as you pointed out you have the trans tuned for instant shifts, which is always better regardless of driving style.

The torque converter is just two big fans stuck in fluid.

Actually, that would only be a fluid coupling technically, which is different, and much much crappier. Torque converters use some other tricks to actually be quite efficient at transferring torque, having to do with the housing itself and geometery.

If you are changing gears and the transmission is essentially in neutral, the transmission side of the torque converter will speed up with RPM's of the engine (assuming there is little or no fuel cut to the engine). As the clutch starts to engage, the engine RPM will be brought back down relatively slowly until the clutch is fully engaged and then the RPM will start increasing again assuming you have not lifted off the throttle. That period of time where the RPM is dropping is the time where the clutches are slipping. The smoother the shift, the more slipping you get.

There is no neutral phase per se. It's only a matter of engaging one clutch, and sometimes disengaging another simultaneous to lock different parts of a planetary set - either the sun, the ring, or the planets. Totally locked tends to be 3rd, since locking the whole thing means 1:1 which is generally 3rd in typical boxes. But yes, under full throttle a 1->2 shift would incur some slippage since you're dragging the engine back down by changing ratios.

The real problem area can be with the transmission that use a final clutch to directly connect the engine to the drivshaft (a "lockup clutch") and bypasses the torque converter. This removes the inefficiencies of the torque converter and allows for better gas mileage when cruising. However, if you are constantly varying your throttle position, like if you are in traffic or rolling hills, the lockup clutch is constantly engaging and disengaging getting hotter and hotter and burning up clutch material. It is usually the first clutch to fail. It also does nasty things to the transmission fluid. This is why it is really important to change slushbox fluid regularly. It is why most cars have a way to turn off the lockup clutch for city driving or towing (two different Drive modes on the gear shift).

They generally only lock up past certain speed, so in the city it's not usually an issue. Not to mention the fact that the locking usually occurs (by design) when there is little load (with the exception of nearing top speed in 3rd or 4th at WOT, no trans I know of locks up in any gear lower than 3rd), and therefore slippage is minimal.

[Hallen]

Well, the amount of slip you impose on a clutch from starting with a manual, especially on a hill is what I meant mostly. That's where the majority of the slip takes place, and of course with an auto there's none. That starting slip adds up to much more than the slip of an auto's bands by quite a lot.

Yes, of course. No argument there.



It depends on how hard you're accelerating. If you're driving normally, there is still plenty of slack that's taken up by the converter during a shift, which is why rpms tend to stay almost nearly constant under light throttle acceleration, at least until you hit 3rd. Of course, if you floor it then the converter is stalled constantly and there is more clutch slip. Unless as you pointed out you have the trans tuned for instant shifts, which is always better regardless of driving style.

There would be less clutch slip if the converter were stalled. Stall RPM is quite high on modern transmissions though.



Actually, that would only be a fluid coupling technically, which is different, and much much crappier. Torque converters use some other tricks to actually be quite efficient at transferring torque, having to do with the housing itself and geometery.

Yes, of course. But I was trying to be simplistic. There is still no direct mechanical connection between the engine and the transmission.



There is no neutral phase per se. It's only a matter of engaging one clutch, and sometimes disengaging another simultaneous to lock different parts of a planetary set - either the sun, the ring, or the planets. Totally locked tends to be 3rd, since locking the whole thing means 1:1 which is generally 3rd in typical boxes. But yes, under full throttle a 1->2 shift would incur some slippage since you're dragging the engine back down by changing ratios.

Of course neutral is a figure of speech to illustrate being between one gear and another. It doesn't change the fact that there will be clutch slippage every shift otherwise there would be little point in having the clutches there in the first place.



They generally only lock up past certain speed, so in the city it's not usually an issue. Not to mention the fact that the locking usually occurs (by design) when there is little load (with the exception of nearing top speed in 3rd or 4th at WOT, no trans I know of locks up in any gear lower than 3rd), and therefore slippage is minimal.

Modern transmissions can lock at any speed.

3rd gear is 1:1? Man, you are living in the dark ages (or are looking at US designed cars):really:. My E32 was a 5 speed transmission with a locking converter back in 1994. Newer cars have as many as 6 or 7 gears in their automatics.

I don't have any facts to back up my assertion. I just know that automatic transmission are wear parts on modern cars and they will fail sooner or later. I have 140k miles on my car and it has the original clutch in it. I doubt I would have gotten that out of an automatic (but mostly because of BMW's stupid "lifetime" fluid policy.)

[JTbo]

Even my (RIP) Nissan had locking automatic and that car was made 1986, 1.5L 3-spd auto, oh the horror, well anyways it did lock around 70kph or so.

How happy I am that I have always driven in proper manner and not utilizing bugs in program (flat shifting) so there won't be any trouble adjusting to new patch. Of course I need to be more careful a bit, sometimes I tend to make mistakes when shifting, my leg and hand are not used by same CPU it seems :scratchch

[Gabkicks]

jtbo is dual core?

[JTbo]

jtbo is dual core?

Aren't we all ;)

[Rappa Z]

Well, i know i have to get use to the new feature, since i use throttle cut and blip. I'm worried about my pedals, they already are degrating just from braking hard and i don't want it to get worse.

[DeKo]

Aren't we all ;)
Nope, im definetely single core, cant do more than 1 thing at once :)

[JTbo]

Nope, im definetely single core, cant do more than 1 thing at once :)

Huh? I can't do just one thing at time, so for example when using joystic shifter while racing lfs I may think about what to make dinner today while at same time I'm thinking my next move of overtaking and also I'm trying to predict what that other guy will do, there is always several things going on on my mind and really same time, thought it would be same for others :shrug:

[bbman]

Huh? I can't do just one thing at time, so for example when using joystic shifter while racing lfs I may think about what to make dinner today while at same time I'm thinking my next move of overtaking and also I'm trying to predict what that other guy will do, there is always several things going on on my mind and really same time, thought it would be same for others :shrug:

I think your memory management need an update... :tilt: