LFS Competes against NetKar Pro and rFactor?

[UruNico2641]

Hey, I hope this is not already been posted about:shy:....

I've been reading around LFS, and some posts have rFactor, and NetKar Pro mentioned in them, and of course I was wondering...:scratchch

LFS is competing with other devs right? Correct me if I'm wrong..:nod:

and another question, just how many Racing Simulators, (as good as LFS, not new or dead...) are there?

I've wondered about this for a long time, isn't there someone else out there daring enough to go against LFS? lol:D:razz:

Nick

[the_angry_angel]

LFS is competing with other devs right? Correct me if I'm wrong..:nod:Well, technically yes?

and another question, just how many Racing Simulators, (as good as LFS, not new or dead...) are there?That's a subjective question. If you ask on the netkar forums you'll hear that netkar is better, here LFS, and so on.

They each have their own "forte" and specific goals that they're trying to acheive.

I've wondered about this for a long time, isn't there someone else out there daring enough to go against LFS? lol:D:razz:I still can't decide how to answer this.

The racing sim market is a niche and with exception of rFactor, isn't a widely marketed. LFS doesn't actively go up against the other products you've listed. The team are just doing their own thing. It's more of a passive side effect of them just doing what they want.

[thisnameistaken]

Try them and see for yourself. Some people like rFactor/GTR/GTR2/GTL/RACE/RACE 07 (from what I've seen they're basically all the same), some like netKar Pro, some like LFS, some freaks even like all of them.

netKar Pro compares best to LFS IMHO. The cars feel nice and mechanical (it's way ahead of LFS in this regard) and the tyres are very believable, but unfortunately: It's not very well supported by its developer, there are elements of the package which seem sloppily put together or rushed, multiplayer (apparently) doesn't work very well on some computers, and it only contains single-seaters, which I'm not that interested in driving. But if you want a really good single-player, single-seater simulator then give it a try.

[UruNico2641]

Hmm I just visited NetKar Pro and rFactor,

RFactor- looks nice, looks like a good enemy against LFS, but 60 ulimited trial time? What the heck is that?:arge: Thats a big Negative response for me.:x


NetKarPro- Looks ok, nice tracks, but absolutely no variety of cars!!!:sadbanana

Sorry if anyone likes these, they look good, but I'd say honestly, LFS is in the lead and will be in the lead unless things change... which they won't..... i hope........:razz:

[UruNico2641]

True, some like it more than others, but I'm sticking with LFS,

but I'm taking your word, I'll give them alll a try, whats the worst that can happen?

Besides, a sixty min demo can change minds Lol:razz::razz: joking, joking!!!



Nick

[Zachary Zoomy]

the devs don't want to "compete" with other devs. they want to develop their simulator at their own pace. NetKar, I've never heard of though.

[dawesdust_12]

NetKar is Good, but bad all at the same time somehow. It's a good base, but the developer has been... nearly non-existant for an entire year, where people had major issues, while he was off doing lines off of waitress' arses in Mexico/Italy (Not fact, but common belief, although the story changes :p).

[Kevin.]

Nascar racing season 2003 seems like a dominant sim.

[SamH]

Nascar racing season 2003 seems like a dominant sim.
You're not kidding.. did you see the price of Nas2003 on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/NASCAR-Racing-2003-Season-PC-Games-New-Factory-Sealed_W0QQitemZ200169669458QQihZ010QQcategoryZ620 53QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)?

[Zachary Zoomy]

You're not kidding.. did you see the price of Nas2003 on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/NASCAR-Racing-2003-Season-PC-Games-New-Factory-Sealed_W0QQitemZ200169669458QQihZ010QQcategoryZ620 53QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)?

NASCAR 2003 was and still is a fantastic sim. the graphics are outdated now however, and S1 beat it in physics. but it was one of the best major sims at the time.

[gp4racer]

netkarpro for many people its the best simulator ever, but for me is ***, i am not the fastest driver but nkpro you hit a kerb and the car is undriveable, LFS give me the signal to control the car and I can hit the throttle and push ahead.

[yoyoML]

Hmm... no one has mentioned Richard Burns Rally! Well, if you consider rallying a kind of "racing", too.

It has one of the best physics engines and corresponding FF, rich and completely natural graphics, suitably punishing damage modelling, extensive garage setup, weather and loose surfaces, realistic sound effects... Suffice to say, for all things it set out to do, it does them extremely well.

It's still very much alive despite being published in 2004 (?) because of the frequently updating RS-RBR mod, which contains too many cars I've already lost count.

[NSX_FReeDoM]

netkarpro for many people its the best simulator ever, but for me is ***, i am not the fastest driver but nkpro you hit a kerb and the car is undriveable, LFS give me the signal to control the car and I can hit the throttle and push ahead.
isnt tat what happen if real life?

[tristancliffe]

No

[HVS5b]

Hmm... no one has mentioned Richard Burns Rally! Well, if you consider rallying a kind of "racing", too.

Aye good point :nod:

A friend bought this for a tenner or so a few months back, and for that kind of money it's a stonkin game :thumbsup: Really need to spend some proper time getting into it. Seems like it has a decent and lively community too, but I don't know how good the control is on the modding front.

Also provided a nice wee flashback to all those hours of CM rally back in the day!

[JeffR]

I'm not sure there that much "competition". The games appeal to different groups of players. Based on the online stats, LFS has a fairly large number of online players. The ISI games pretty much split up the online players into many small groups.

I would say that most of the simmers from 1999 that played Grand Prix Legends, Nascar Racing 2003 (on road tracks) and it's mods, EA's F1C 99-02 and it's mods, have moved onto the ISI based games available today. Most of the mods and tracks from the previous games are available on rFactor now. This group is mostly interested simulations of real cars and tracks.

The early versions of LFS had questionable physics, and most of the cars were slow, something that wouldn't appeal to the older generation of simmers. LFS has since improved, good physics and faster cars, but it only includes a few real cars and no real tracks, so it continues to be a mostly separte group of players.

There are some "crossover" players, and I play ISI games, LFS, arcade racing games and non racing games, although not that much online. Too many games, not enough time.

[e2mustang]

rofl 160$ nascar 2003,come to me its free,just take it XD

[dawesdust_12]

/me runs to hungary!

[e2mustang]

/me runs to hungary!
Actually im closer,i live in Nj ;)

[dawesdust_12]

New Jersey! Bah, I don't wanna go there. :p

Just don't tell me you live in Nutley, or someone will die

/me glares at Jakg

[mrodgers]

rofl 160$ nascar 2003,come to me its free,just take it XD
New Jersey, eh? I'm just over here in Pennsylvania. I'll come pick it up tomorrow. After I sell it on e-bay for $160, I'll send ya $5.

No one has come up with a NASCAR sim since NR2003 that's worth anything since only EA has exclusive license for it. So, if you want to race NASCAR, you don't have much of a choice but to stick with NR2003. Still the best physics for stockcar oval racing available.

[Jakg]

isnt tat what happen if real life?Depends on the kerb, but not in nKPro

[ajp71]

netkarpro for many people its the best simulator ever, but for me is ***, i am not the fastest driver but nkpro you hit a kerb and the car is undriveable, LFS give me the signal to control the car and I can hit the throttle and push ahead.

I don't remember the kerbs being undrivable in nK Pro, but then again due to my PCs (that was identical to the test rig that got a stable 50 fps online, except for a slightly faster processor) pathetic performance.

The kerbs in LFS though are mostly easy to take, the reasons for this is some of them are flat and smooth, you do get that IRL but still there seems to be a lot of grip on them, you'd never want to be braking on a kerb IRL in LFS you can get away with it. Blackwood is a particuarly bad example with the green run off matting stuff that no driver would ever choose to drive on IRL, it should have pretty low grip and the car should be bouncing about and getting torn apart by the vibrations. In other words it would not be the fastest line IRL whereas in LFS I think it is identical to the tarmac.

Another issue is the lack of punishment for taking kerbs, I know there is a bit of damage but it's not really noticable. IRL taking to much kerb can result in race ending damage. I remember a guy who ended up in a big smash on the pit straight following suspension failure that he thinks was caused by just clipping one kerb too hard in the previous corner. You've also got to take into account other issues, cars which are generating any kind of ground effect will have big issues with loss of downforce over kerbs and racing cars with low tire pressures can easily get a tire deflated by clipping the sidewall on a kerb.

[Hyperactive]

As I see it, LFS and rfactor have quite similar target groups while the nk pro is aims strictly for the realism, sometimes at all costs, making it too hard for the average driver.

I think it is a great pity that nk pro was left as it is. It has all the ingredients to be something really awesome, something that was once available for LFS too. But for all sims, I can't see any direct competitor, they are different enough to live on their own.

But tbh, I don't see any competition. Not because one is better than other, but because all are average in their own ways. Even GPL is just fine with today's standards :shrug:

[JTbo]

I try to avoid inner kerbs in LFS, quite many of those are instant spin out if you use clutch pack, with viscous coupling they are not an issue.

Other games and sims it seems to be similar to some extent as clutch pack in LFS.

I haven't got superiority of clutch pack in corner exits either, you have to be so careful with throttle that acceleration is slow, with clutch pack you can actually react if car starts loosing grip, so ease a bit and it handles situation well, I have noticed less severe behaviour with competitors in similar situation.

But then again, I'm not very good driver :D

[WakkyDude]

TOcA could compete with LFS any day...

[The Very End]

TOcA could compete with LFS any day...

Haha, never!
Toca had the worst physics ever, and the overal game was quite bad.
But thats is imo :)

[Maelstrom]

Haha, never!
Toca had the worst physics ever, and the overal game was quite bad.
But thats is imo :)

Toca 1 and 2 were pretty good! Not as much as LFS of course, it was another era but convincing!
After it went right into the abyss!

I still prefer Toca 2 to Rtacktor!

edit: I'm talking about Toca 2 touring car, not Toca 2 race driver!

[J@tko]

RFactor- looks nice, looks like a good enemy against LFS, but 60 ulimited trial time? What the heck is that?:arge: Thats a big Negative response for me.:x

U got a 60 min trial of R-Factor? I've got an unlimited one! Pretty bad though, especially with keyboard. LFS is better, IMO.

[Electrik Kar]

The kerbs in LFS though are mostly easy to take, the reasons for this is some of them are flat and smooth, you do get that IRL but still there seems to be a lot of grip on them, you'd never want to be braking on a kerb IRL in LFS you can get away with it.

I find the LFS curbs more slippery than those in GTR2. Atleast, you've gotta be slightly careful when you're going over them. In GTR2, I don't think I've discerned any difference between the tarmac and the curb in terms of grip.

The green criss-cross runoff at Blackwood though seems quite grippy.

[yoyoML]

As I see it, LFS and rfactor have quite similar target groups while the nk pro is aims strictly for the realism, sometimes at all costs, making it too hard for the average driver.

I think it is a great pity that nk pro was left as it is. It has all the ingredients to be something really awesome, something that was once available for LFS too. But for all sims, I can't see any direct competitor, they are different enough to live on their own.

But tbh, I don't see any competition. Not because one is better than other, but because all are average in their own ways. Even GPL is just fine with today's standards :shrug:

I don't think netKar is that difficult. Have you been through the era where you had 5 choices of flight-sims at any time? Flight-sims have much steeper learning curve than any race sim ever, but people managed just fine. Ok, not so fine since that genre is currently more dead than sim racing. But clicking a few (2) buttons to start a car isn't that much more difficult.

I also hope netKar gets its deserved polish because the foundation seems really good. Who knows, I might get it when that darned patch eventually comes out LOL!

[yoyoML]

Haha, never!
Toca had the worst physics ever, and the overal game was quite bad.
But thats is imo :)

Indeed the Toca's (aka RaceDriver) are really bad. It's like stirring that G25 through molasses in a vain attempt to steer a boat. Not even NFS is that unresponsive/filtered/damped whatever. I guess they couldn't decide if they wanted a pivot physics or a 4-point one.

But they do have decent graphics which runs super fast!

[frankwer]

Netkar Pro is not so difficult apart from the damage model which is sooo sensitive, touch wheels and your race is over :)

[JeffR]

Regarding curbs: a video of a McLaren F1, driven by David Coulthard in 2002 at Spa, and a 2003 Ferrari (not sure of driver) at Monza using the curbing. On a side note, regarding "realisim", the cars viewed in replays of various racing games never seem to truly duplicate the responses of real cars. To me, it's mostly suspension movment, and how the cars drift (for the ones that do drift). I'm not sure if it's the cars, the tracks, or some other factor, but although racing games are close, they just don't look "right", something is just missing. I think this is why Simbin made the comment that these are racing games, not simulations.


Real F1, 2002 at Spa:
spaf1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/spaf1.wmv)

LFS F1 at Blackwood by MacEST:
lfsblf1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/lfs/lfsblf1.wmv)

Real F1, 2003 at Monza:
mnzaf1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/mnzaf1.wmv)

[ajp71]

Real F1, 2002 at Spa:
spaf1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/spaf1.wmv)

They're flat kerbs that can be driven on, not like the more aggressive ones that are not normally driven on, like the ones at Blackwood. Fern Bay has even more aggressive kerbs that can still be driven on without any real penalty. There is no way that the Fern Bay Club and Green chicanes would be driven like they are IRL.

The kerbs at Monza are more aggressive than the ones at Spa but still no way near as aggressive as the ones at Blackwood.

[JeffR]

They're flat kerbs that can be driven on, not like the more aggressive ones that are not normally driven on, like the ones at Blackwood. Fern Bay has even more aggressive kerbs that can still be driven on without any real penalty. There is no way that the Fern Bay Club and Green chicanes would be driven like they are IRL.

The kerbs at Monza are more aggressive than the ones at Spa but still no way near as aggressive as the ones at Blackwood.Since LFS is supposed to be a simulation oriented racing game, then why not make the curbing similar to what's found in real life?

[tailing]

I've never tried nkpro but have always been curious about it as namie had a lot to like about it (although not enough to devote time with it over lfs). I obviously then can't comment much on it but I happened to visit the forum at rsc and read the thread about what people love about nkpro and it was all stuff that I can get in lfs already, seemingly to a standard as good or better, without all the problems.:shrug:

[evilgenius]

My vote goes to Richard Burns Rally, and second goes to LFS.
1.) RBR is what made me want to buy a steering wheel set, and when I started playing with my logitech formula force gp, it just became SO alive, and then there was the czesh plugin for online competition, than there were new cars (really awesome ones) so I played RBR for a long time, and it needed constant training. Then there came the n4 and s1600, which brought rbr in to a new level of sim-racing, the game has survived for quite a few years now only on its fan-base, new mods , updates etc, and they are very high quality. The only drawback are the tracks :/ you just want more ! and the new tracks that are coming now ar not on par with the original ones, but RBR is the best bargain sim-racing game, I mean, you get SOOOO much for so little. RBR is a different level of sim-racing, it is fun, when it is taking seriously, and I think, that a steering wheel set is a must to enjoy this one.
2.) LFS is the common racers sim-racer, cauz it is as I see by the number of people playing, very enjoyable with keyboard/mouse, which is surprising.. LFS shines through with the multiplayer and its levels of difficulty, from an golf to a firebreathing gtr. LFS is not complete yet, it has its cons, but it is very enjoyable, and offers much fun at not very high cost or gear needed.
3.) pretty much GTR/RACE....and the others :D

[GWADanny]

I played the nKpro demo and i think it is very good and very realistic although it does have problems, specificly online where not many play ATM which should be one of the best aspects of any racing sim, LFS is still 1 of the best sims but i think nKpro will be very close to LFS in the future.

Oh and about rFactor, i think it sucks piss !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ^^

[ajp71]

Since LFS is supposed to be a simulation oriented racing game, then why not make the curbing similar to what's found in real life?

Aggressive kerbs like we have on a lot of LFS tracks are realistic. The very flat kerbs found at most modern F1 tracks have been made much less aggressive to pander to the demands of teams who can't cope with bumpy challenging circuits. IIRC a few years ago there were even complaints from teams about anti-cutting markers at Spa breaking front wings ;)

[JeffR]

Aggressive kerbs like we have on a lot of LFS tracks are realistic. The very flat kerbs found at most modern F1 tracks have been made much less aggressive to pander to the demands of teams who can't cope with bumpy challenging circuits.The issue is high downforce and low clearance. Race cars break if the surface or curbing is too harsh.

realistic - So which real world tracks have aggressive curbs?

[tristancliffe]

Most of the circuits that MotoGP and F1 don't visit

[ajp71]

The issue is high downforce and low clearance. Race cars break if the surface or curbing is too harsh.


The solution is not to drive on them then.


realistic - So which real world tracks have aggressive curbs?

Some tracks like Pau and the 'ring have kerbs that would (and do) simply destroy suspensions if you try and drive on them like you can the kerbs at Fern Bay, look at the number of DNFs from suspension failure in a typical F3 race at Pau.

Lots of tracks have kerbs somewhere in between the F1 circuits and the extreme kerbs of older circuits. Generally kerbs are getting less aggressive, which is a bit of a shame really as there's nothing wrong with having to drive on the prescribed racing circuit rather than all the rumble strips.

[The Very End]

I`ll quote kart racer, that made a good post that points out somethings, take a look :

The graphics could be updated. The car selection isn't as great as it could be. The tracks do have a sort of "dull" feeling.

Thankfully, most of those attributes are not priority right now. If they were, we'd end up with a rFactor or Race 07. Don't get me wrong, I play (and enjoy) rFactor,GTR2 and Netkar Pro. Its just that they can't hold my interest for as long as LFS.

I enjoy the other sims, but not as much as I enjoy LFS and to be honest, I probably wasted my money on them. rFactor, GTR2 and NKpro all have different qaulities but tend to lack more than they contain.

GPL was the only sim that had me addicted to just plain driving/racing. Look at the community that sim had and continues to have! Currently that sim is outdated in every way, but with strong physics and a great net code, GPL continues to be one of the best sims around. It had one type of car and around a dozen tracks. The feeling of the physics and the close, competitive, consistent and structured community made for a experience I could never get tired of.

GTR2 has your real cars and your real tracks, but lacks a "connection" feeling if you ask me. I don't feel like I'm driving a car. The netcode is horrendous and the cars visibly look like they are floating in and out of the track like boats...even in single player replays sometimes. The times are supposedly close to its real life counterparts, but thats it. Its a "hey look, this is a real car and wow! this sim is so real the times are close to the real thing!"....then you're bored already.

rFactor has the selection, anything you want and anywhere you want. With all that comes a sense of dilution in the actual racing; the racers/leagues/hosts/talent is spread too thin. Not to mention the confusion of matching track versions and mod versions and patches and car version...ahh blah blah...Thats why we don't need tons of cars and tracks yet.
Netkar Pro is a great example of a sim that is and was underhyped and has amazing potential. Sadly, I find it difficult to think that NKpro will or even can make a strong come back, with a community that felt abandoned. No worries there, because we have communication. The dev's are busy, but the still frequent the forums.

You don't think that we've had dozens and dozens of month on end periods without updates since 2002? People have complained about the update frequency ever since the sim first caught on. Thankfully, the dev's stuck to their plan. They've always surprised us with features,listened to our complaints, fixed our issues and concentrated on creating the best online racing simulator there is. That will not stop, this is just a dry time...and tbh....that means they are working on creating, updating and fixing the features that make this sim so great.

I want real tracks, I want real cars, I want more updates and I want better graphics. If they followed those "wants", we would end up with either a sim that has a great selection but too much rough, unfinished and unpolished content(RF), real cars and tracks...but no real "feel"(GTR2),a burnt out development team(Racing Legends,anybody?) or a unpolished abandoned gem(NKP).

Instead, they are building that part of the sim that gets people addicted...that part that lets you "feel" like your driving and that part that allows for great close racing with a great community.

Its difficult to see, but we all love LFS because of things that aren't so apparent at first. Its no surprise that the first thing people notice when they get bored is the lack of visual quality,apparent fictionally based car selection and lack of real world comparisons.

The Developers know what they are doing, the updates are not as frequent right now for a reason. Trust them. They, after all, made the very thing you are thinking about right now. The thing you are spending time reading about, the thing you use enough to get you almost emotionally attached.The thing you beg for more of, because of the feeling this thing called LFS give you. Its the physics and the net code that builds a great sim and this one is being built as I write this. Lets let them and help them create the best online simulation available, in return they will throw us some new content along the way to keep everybody interested. I just hope they continue doing what they have been, because if they do, this sim is only going to get consistently and astonishingly better as time goes on.

[JeffR]

Lots of tracks have kerbs somewhere in between the F1 circuits and the extreme kerbs of older circuits. Generally kerbs are getting less aggressive, which is a bit of a shame really as there's nothing wrong with having to drive on the prescribed racing circuit rather than all the rumble strips.Except that because of mistakes made by drivers or being forced off track by another driver causes the cars to be severly damages if the curbs are too "aggressive". If it was your money paying to repair the cars would you want "aggressive curbs"?

Worse yet is the issue that a damaged car could go out of control and cause a crash with other cars. The car builders and the drivers want safe tracks.

[tristancliffe]

Big, aggressive kerbs are no less safe (except for bikes, when they can nasty things to riders' hips), just make it easier. It's pandering to the big money series.