Hand Changing Gear

[harjun]

Wouldn't it be cool if when you change gears the driver actually puts his hand down, reaches to the gear knob, and moves it? I think its just a standard feature, which most racing games have, that would improve realistics in the game, sorry if there is already a thread around on it, but just after playing the M3Challenge game, really needs to be put in :)

Thanks
Harjun

[BlakjeKaas]

It would always have some sort of lag and it's just eye-candy, first things first!

[DieKolkrabe]

1) Search

2) See #1

This would be VERY hard to do online. Or offline, due to the animations being very complex, as well as the issue of timing them. And it would add nothing to the simulator IMO, I'd rather the devs took the time it'd take to code that feature in, to work on things that'd improve LFS.

EDIT: And what the poster above me said

DK

[harjun]

oh, ok, but if it didn't have lag, woudln't it be cool though? no lag even on multiplayer for m3 challenge

[DieKolkrabe]

It's imposible to do animations without lag. Supposing they were done without lag, there's also the issue of timing the animations to shifting gears.

DK

[harjun]

but not if you have a decent computer...why should there be lag?

[DieKolkrabe]

It would lag for two reasons (this is how I understand it anyway):

1) The animation would begin when the player hits the up/downshift buttons, and it would lag due to that

2) Internet lag.

Edit: Jakg, Tristan, mrodgers, can any of you guys explain it better?

DK

[UncleBenny]

but not if you have a decent computer...why should there be lag?

because when you shift gears it needs to happen immediately. but the animation still has to run, so it is going to be behind the physical act of you changing gears.

gtr2 is like that, and it is extremely annoying, especially since i have an H shifter and you know you shifted already, yet you see the hand moving down and shifting again for nothing.

in order for it to work right, LFS would have to predict when you are going to change gear and then have the hand in place JUST as you shift. not going to happen.

[harjun]

oh, i see, but thats just, silly :)

[Jakg]

When you flick the paddle, the hand has to move in to the gear stick and then change gear, so the gear change animation always happens after the actual gearchange - ISI games do this, but they have to lag behind the actual gearchange to make them look reasonable.

EDIT - I can't see internet lag being a problem tbh.

"That's just silly" ...?

[DieKolkrabe]

/me votes to lock thread

[Bob Smith]

Better to just play the noise but even that lags too.

The solution lies in temporal coding techniques. ;)

[DieKolkrabe]

What are those?

And why has the forum suddenly taken (to me at least) a Star Trek-esque vogue?

EDIT: Jakg, what I meant by internet lag is that driver A changes gear, the animation plays, but lag comes into the equation

DK

[J@tko]

For example, I use keyboard with auto clutch - As soon as i press 'a' to up shift, it shifts up instantly. But LFS could not predict that I was going to shift up, so could not play the animation. If it did predict when I was going to shift up and played the animation, and I didn't - then it would look stupid! It could only start the animation when you have pressed the upshift button. You could get round this by LFS automatically putting the left hand onto the shifter when you are approaching the red-line (or braking, for that matter) then shifting when you press the button. But then people would complain that they could hold it on the red line all day and having their hand on the shifter would be unrealsitic (drifters maybe) Of course, in the FO8 and BF1 (and poss FOX, and GTRs) they could have (in Clarkson's words) 'flappy paddle' gearboxes, and they could move quite easily at the touch of a button?

[ajp71]

This would be VERY hard to do online. Or offline, due to the animations being very complex, as well as the issue of timing them. And it would add nothing to the simulator IMO, I'd rather the devs took the time it'd take to code that feature in, to work on things that'd improve LFS.


GPL managed to get away with doing this, mainly because it was a very short reach to the shifter and the cars had much slower gear shifts and the hand stayed on the wheel for a short time incase of a second shift. For cars with quick gearboxes and a longer reach the only way to do this would probably be to keep the hand on the gearstick all the time (or just turn the wheel off ;)) or somehow sense a gearshift, tell tale lifting, slight clutch creep or a more fancy solution of a pressure sensitive shifter. The sequential 'boxes in some cars I have worked on had a pressure sensor that triggered the throttle management process, but that is only a fraction of a second before the shift anyway.

[MAGGOT]

Of course, in the FO8 and BF1 (and poss FOX, and GTRs) they could have (in Clarkson's words) 'flappy paddle' gearboxes, and they could move quite easily at the touch of a button?

Just to be, uhh... pedantic, the only 'flappy paddle' car we have is the BF1. GTRs (currently) use a gated shifter, FO8 and FOX are sequential sticks.

[J@tko]

Just to be, uhh... pedantic, the only 'flappy paddle' car we have is the BF1. GTRs (currently) use a gated shifter, FO8 and FOX are sequential sticks.

Oh, are they - didn't know that! Surely the GTR's will move to a sequential stick sometime? You don't get DTM/V8 Supercars/Le Mans cars using gaters any more do you?

I wasn't sure of what the cars actually used - I just guessed!

[DieKolkrabe]

Oh, are they - didn't know that! Surely the GTR's will move to a sequential stick sometime? You don't get DTM/V8 Supercars/Le Mans cars using gaters any more do you?

I wasn't sure of what the cars actually used - I just guessed!

AFAIK, the V8s do and the GT2 classes at Le Mans?

Could be wrong though

DK

[harjun]

i think it would look rather strange if the hand was always on THE KNOB

[ajp71]

Oh, are they - didn't know that! Surely the GTR's will move to a sequential stick sometime? You don't get DTM/V8 Supercars/Le Mans cars using gaters any more do you?


Still get some, IIRC the works BMW Nurburgring cars had H pattern 'boxes and some cars competing in other GT championships (such as Britcar) still use them mainly on grounds of cost or driver preference.

[deggis]

I think you'd struggle to find a modern top level car with a H-gate in GT1/GT2 classes or GT500 (Super GT, former JGTC, the big GTRs in LFS are actually more similar with these). But the question is from which year these GTRs in the game are, they obviously look like much older, like late 90's. So H-gate actually could be possible. Scawen needs to decide which one it is when he someday in the next 10 years takes a look at the clutch/transmission simulation...

Most of the GT cars don't even need clutch anymore! At least this applies to Corvette C6R (GT1) and Ferrari F430 (GT2), I guess it's pretty much a standard today.

ps. DieKolkrabe and J@tko: "Le Mans" is not a class, but I guess you meant the GT1 and GT2 cars they run the series and in the 24h race itself? "Le Mans car" most commonly means the prototypes classes (currently LMP1 and LMP2) in general. Since LFS doesn't have similar cars it's irrelevant do they have paddles or not but yes, they have had paddles for nearly 10 years already. :)

[Matt0snap]

-1... I really wanted to see the guy shift. But then I played DIRT for PS3 and having the guy shift after the car changed gears was really annoying.

three ways this could work. Like the other guy said, automaticly move the drivers hand onto the shifter near red-line.

Have the same thing as dirt, when u hit the button, the car shifts, but the drivers hand isn't in tune with the car.

Third is have acutal lag in the shifting of the car until the drivers hand manually shifts...which would be probably the most annoying thing in the world.

lol, or fourth is to have a super computer that can predict when you are going to shift...

Thinking about it tho.... for the noobs who use automatic, having the drivers hand move to be alot easier...:x

[mrodgers]

lol, or fourth is to have a super computer that can predict when you are going to shift...
Quite simple, and no super computer needed. We have TrackIR that tracks your head movements for your view. Just create HandIR that tracks your hand so that when you move your had towards the shifter, the animation does the same.

Time for me to develop my HandIR shifter hand tracking system and retire from the millions I'm going to make selling it :D

[dawesdust_12]

Mike, can it also track other hand motions, so I can drive around BL like a gangsta, with my hand on my crotch?

[MAGGOT]

I think you'd struggle to find a modern top level car with a H-gate in GT1/GT2 classes or GT500 (Super GT, former JSGT, the big GTRs in LFS are actually more similar with these).

I haven't actually checked specs, but I thought our GTRs were closed to GT3 classed cars? (FIA GT3, SPEED World Challenge GT, etc)

[Dajmin]

The tiny amount of lag it'd be between you shifting and the animation starting would be negligable.

For those of us with paddles it'd just start when you hit the gear, so the next available cycle.
For those with a clutch pedal it could be done slightly better, with the animation starting when you engaged the clutch, moving out to rest on the stick when engaged and only actually moving the stick if you did then change gear.

Been suggested before though.

[mrodgers]

I haven't actually checked specs, but I thought our GTRs were closed to GT3 classed cars? (FIA GT3, SPEED World Challenge GT, etc)
Doesn't matter to me what the GTR class in LFS is suppose to be. I'm nearly done with my h-shifter and will be quite ticked off if I couldn't use it because someone chose the opinion that GTRs should be sequential.... :x

LFS for me is all about fun. H-shifter will just be more fun. In racing IRL it's all about precision and having the edge to win. Sequentials are more precise and give the machines more precision to their driving.

[spanks]

test drive unlimited did this very well...I guess it wasn't a total failure of a game

anyways, when you reach like 300 rpm before the shift point, you guy puts his hand down on the shifter in anticipation...not much unlike you would do when racing. if the rpm drops back down you put your hand back on the wheel, then when you shift...you shift.

[ajp71]

Most of the GT cars don't even need clutch anymore! At least this applies to Corvette C6R (GT1) and Ferrari F430 (GT2), I guess it's pretty much a standard today.


I'm not aware of a production based racing car that hasn't kept the conventional clutch/gearbox/differential arrangement simply dropping in racing replacement parts. Whilst in theory one could compete in a series with rolling starts and no pitstops clutchless (and I've push started both of the single seaters from the pitlane this way when the clutches have packed up in practice) I think a clutch is normally some how mandated in the rules and running without one would be such a pain it wouldn't be worth it. If you meant they wouldn't run a conventional foot pedal operated clutch in a separate housing then yes in some series you probably could run a clutch inside the gearbox connected to some inferior flappy paddle clutch but one word comes to mind, over-engineering (and it would actually do the job nearly as well as a foot pedal :doh:).

[deggis]

I haven't actually checked specs, but I thought our GTRs were closed to GT3 classed cars? (FIA GT3, SPEED World Challenge GT, etc)
Neither had I... http://www.fiagt3.com/cars.php

Seems to be quite a big variety of different cars, even one 4WD (Gallardo), hp ranges from 400 to 500.

JGTC is still closer, it's been Super GT since 2004, I use the old name because I mean older cars too. Matches the LFS GTR quite small engine configurations even better.

Noticed from the link above that Ascari KZ1R, Aston DBRS9, Corvette Z06 and Lamborghini Gallardo are still using manual H-gates in the GT3 class, on two of the cars sequantials are optional though.

I'm not aware of a production based racing car that hasn't kept the conventional clutch/gearbox/differential arrangement simply dropping in racing replacement parts. Whilst in theory one could compete in a series with rolling starts and no pitstops clutchless (and I've push started both of the single seaters from the pitlane this way when the clutches have packed up in practice) I think a clutch is normally some how mandated in the rules and running without one would be such a pain it wouldn't be worth it. If you meant they wouldn't run a conventional foot pedal operated clutch in a separate housing then yes in some series you probably could run a clutch inside the gearbox connected to some inferior flappy paddle clutch but one word comes to mind, over-engineering (and it would actually do the job nearly as well as a foot pedal :doh:).
I just mean that shifting is clutch-free. :) I thought that was self-explanatory because the subject was about gearboxes and shifting. Of course the cars still has clutch pedal but it's not needed in shifting.

I specifically asked about this from a pro driver who have mostly driven F430 and C6R in some French GT series. I was kind of surprised because I thought they'd still need to heel & toe while downshifting but only thing they need to do is blip the throttle. Upshifts are of course clutchless with automatic throttle cut.

[Sketchyrollin564]

I thought of a way to REDUCE (not get rid of) some of the lag that happens when you shift. Instead of the hand moving off the shifter only when you approach redline, it could also do it once you get below the powerband, AND also, as soon as you let off the gas, and hit the clutch. Depending on how fast you shift, having the hand come off the wheel when you hit the clutch, instead of wating till you actually shift, could be a huge difference.


So if we combine

1: once we get NEAR the optimal shift point (so theres some flexibility) the hand comes off the wheel and to the shifter, but doesnt shift till we actually shift

2: Once we get below to the powerband, and close to the "optimal downshift point?", the hand comes off wheel blablabla

3: As soon as we clutch, hand comes off wheel, bla bla bla


Combine those three, and it wouldnt be too laggy.


The only way though to do it perfectly, would be when your using an automatic transmission. But then if thats the case, why would your hand come off the wheel, unless your shifting to reverse or neutral, which then the computer wouldnt be able to know ahead of time anyways.

[mrodgers]

Actually, if you think about it carefully, the driver does move quite realistically and in perfect sync with gear changes, even in LFS. That is because YOU are the driver. Disregarding keyboard and mouse drivers, I still fail to understand why you even want the driver and/or wheel visible. The wheel is already mounted in front of you and the driver's hands are already mounted to your own arms.

If you are talking about the driver and wheel graphics, then you already drive in the cockpit view. Take it one step further from controlling an on-screen graphics with a controller to simulating driving a car and get rid of the driver/wheel graphics. The driver and wheel are already directly attached to you, use them instead.

[ciph]

Why does everyone say animations lag? That some kind of dumbness people spread..

[Matt0snap]

Why does everyone bump year old threads...and then bump them again 3 months later.

and this thread is about getting the gear changing as accurate as possible...only way would be to have lag... and that is why this thread died :thumb:

[Woz]

Why does everyone say animations lag? That some kind of dumbness people spread..

Explain this then lol

So I am sat at my wheel. I move my had to the shifter. Change gear and while my hand is moving back to the wheel the LFS drivers hand will be moving TO the gearstick to change it.

How does LFS know I am moving my hand to the stick. Think about what you are talking about before you post lol :)

LFS does not know that you are going to change gear, it just knows when you HAVE changed gear. At that point it can trigger the annimation. This means as my hand move back to the wheel I would see the drivers hand moving TO the wheel.

Do you understand yet?

What could be done is that when you start to dip the clutch the animation to move the hand to the stick could start, this would minimise lag but then the drivers hand would move to the stick when you clutch kick and that would look daft.

[dawesdust_12]

Woz, it's simple. We need a few strategically placed cameras around our room, that are looking for little white motion capture balls that are placed on our skin tight suit, then LFS can interpret this data, and animate us scratching our balls or shifting.

We could even have proper leg animation, facial expressions, head turning. It's easy as breaking through the Earths "Liquid Hot Magma" and then we're going for gold.

[Woz]

Woz, it's simple. We need a few strategically placed cameras around our room, that are looking for little white motion capture balls that are placed on our skin tight suit, then LFS can interpret this data, and animate us scratching our balls or shifting.

We could even have proper leg animation, facial expressions, head turning. It's easy as breaking through the Earths "Liquid Hot Magma" and then we're going for gold.

Wow you have solved it. Beats my other idea of setting my PC clock forwards 1 second, the time to move my hand from the wheel to shifter, in a hope that the PC would be on different time to me and hence solve the lag that way. It would be on future time compared to me and so would look like it predicted when I shifted.

Unfortunatly that technique has failed to work, no matter how much I change my PCs time settings :)

[mrodgers]

Dustin, you amaze me with your wisdom. I am truely astonished and I have never been astonished by you or amazed by you in all my years of LFS. :D

Track IR - check
Face IR - check
Hand IR - check
Feet IR - check
All working, I'm ready to race!

[atlantian]

hand and feet IR is just unnecessary, just get the G25...

[ciph]

No game is supposed to see if you move your hands. Its also called reaction time and not any weridness of lag. If you press a key windows dont know you are starting to press it it only knows when you pressed it fully <- Same shit.

And this "LAG" will not happen if your reaction is good to change a gear, and real drivers usually let their hands on the Gear controller.

I dont see why it shouldnt be possible... Anyone else who says something different lacks of informations, i worked once as a Game Dev i know what im talking about.

[atlantian]

No game is supposed to see if you move your hands. Its also called reaction time and not any weridness of lag. If you press a key windows dont know you are starting to press it it only knows when you pressed it fully <- Same shit.

And this "LAG" will not happen if your reaction is good to change a gear, and real drivers usually let their hands on the Gear controller.

I dont see why it shouldnt be possible... Anyone else who says something different lacks of informations, i worked once as a Game Dev i know what im talking about.
right on! so there is an "animation lag" this is when your brain sends signals to your hands.

i watched a documentary about speed called SPEED hosted by Jeremy Clarkson.

it turns out that everyone has the same reaction or "lag" but athletes are just so well trained that they move their body into position before they need to. they observe tale-tail signs of the mark and is prepared for it, that's why it seems like they have sharp reactions.

to tie it back to the point, we do have an "animation lag" where we reach for the shifter and move it, but we know when to do it so we have our hand on the shifter at the end of a straight, preparing to down shift.

so there is no point in adding an additional animation on top of our actions... if you want to have it be realistic enough that you can learn to race/drive stick on LFS... just get a wheel with an H shifter

[Woz]

No game is supposed to see if you move your hands. Its also called reaction time and not any weridness of lag. If you press a key windows dont know you are starting to press it it only knows when you pressed it fully <- Same shit.

And this "LAG" will not happen if your reaction is good to change a gear, and real drivers usually let their hands on the Gear controller.

I dont see why it shouldnt be possible... Anyone else who says something different lacks of informations, i worked once as a Game Dev i know what im talking about.

You just DO NOT understand what we are talking about do you lol

Let me try this...


ME Computer Driver
Move had to stick
Change gear (Trigger point)
Move hand to wheel Move hand to stick
Change gear
Move hand to wheel


This is the "lag" people are talking about. If you fail to understand it now I have NO IDEA how to make you see lol

We mean that by the time the annimation has played the action has already happened. Looks like your life as a game dev and developer taught you nothing :)

[dawesdust_12]

Although, the easy way, would to be when the RPM is within a reasonable point of shifting up, to move the hand to the knob, prepared, although downshifting could be shaky, unless it observes where you are, what's happening and what you're doing.
If you're braking, it should have your hand on the knob ready to downshift, but if you're not, I don't want no animation grabbing my knob when I don't want to.

It could be done, but it'd haffto be more observant than "oh, button pressed, lets do that animation now"

Also, I have a confession, I only partook in this thread so I could legitimately say "grabbing my knob".

[ciph]

Pointless in explaining here.. so i will stop because i see no sense of teaching monkeys using a computer.

[Woz]

Pointless in explaining here.. so i will stop because i see no sense of teaching monkeys using a computer.

You are just trying to back out now you have seen my timeline and realised you were WRONG! :)

BTW, this monkey is a software developer that started writing software in 1980. I have worked on commercial grade flight sims (military and comercial) and in places like Reuters on security etc. I not only know how to use a computer I also know how to tell it to do stuff down to assembly code level.

So COME ON THEN, explain why there will be no "lag" between my hand and that of the driver. You can get as technical as you need, I WILL UNDERSTAND YOU :)

EXACTLY HOW WILL YOU SYNC MY HAND MOVEMENTS TO THE VIRTUAL DRIVERS. (Please look at the timeline again first BTW)

This should be so funny :)

[atlantian]

guys... the best solution to this problem is to just have a replica of a car cabin built for gaming...

[ciph]

Woz, you dont get what the definition Game means. Did you ever think about that what you say cant be done without any other Controllers arround you? Why will be there a difference if you simply add an animation or leave it like it is? Its just an animation wich will be called after the Button CallBack event.

And i say congrats about Assembly Level, i did assembly on the old Amiga so dont tell me shit i know already.

You just know how to start your mouth and start talking shit that is totally unnecessary for anyone. Adding an Animation != Slowing down an event (Maybe you understand that?)

Since i wont add now Code snippet to proof that the most here are wrong you can keep believing whatever you wish to, for my part im done. Call me whatever u want but you will and can never change my knowledge because i have way more of that than you.

And dont even start trying to get me proof about ASM, i dont have to proof anything but if you wish me to i will do this outside of this Forum, if you feel like "I Require for everything proof" Pm me and we can talk about lowlevel machine code.

[Woz]

Woz, you dont get what the definition Game means. Did you ever think about that what you say cant be done without any other Controllers arround you? Why will be there a difference if you simply add an animation or leave it like it is? Its just an animation wich will be called after the Button CallBack event.

WE KNOW THAT. sigh

If you are a developer LOOK at the timeline I posted. If you FAIL to understand the timeline you are NOT a developer. It is a state diagram between 2 "threads" that are in different domains.

And i say congrats about Assembly Level, i did assembly on the old Amiga so dont tell me shit i know already.

I didnt tell you anything apart from "this monkey" knows how to use a computer. You appeared to believe you are the ONLY one that understand computers so I just had to slap that down lol

You just know how to start your mouth and start talking shit that is totally unnecessary for anyone. Adding an Animation != Slowing down an event (Maybe you understand that?)

NOBODY has ever said the animation will slow down anything.

Take a deep breath because once again you show a complete LACK of understanding about what we are even talking about.

Since i wont add now Code snippet to proof that the most here are wrong you can keep believing whatever you wish to, for my part im done........

We dont want a code snippet. It would be pointless. We just want to know how you stop the animation playing AFTER I have completed the gear change movements MYSELF.

The trouble is you have gut hung up on the word LAG and assumed it means something OTHER than what we are talking about. Look at the context because the mechanical side of things is simple, a control action happens which triggers an animation.

What we are ACTUALLY talking about is that the animation will NOT play until AFTER the gear has changed.

There will be a DELAY (replacement word for lag in this situation) between ME changing gear using MY H shifter and the virtual driver changing gear. The virtual driver will not change gear until the gear HAS ALREADY BEEN CHANGED.

Is it really that hard to comprehend. It MUST be because EVERYONE else in this thread understands EXACTLY what we are talking about apart from YOU!

[ciph]

WE KNOW THAT. sigh

If you are a developer LOOK at the timeline I posted. If you FAIL to understand the timeline you are NOT a developer. It is a state diagram between 2 "threads" that are in different domains.



I didnt tell you anything apart from "this monkey" knows how to use a computer. You appeared to believe you are the ONLY one that understand computers so I just had to slap that down lol



NOBODY has ever said the animation will slow down anything.

Take a deep breath because once again you show a complete LACK of understanding about what we are even talking about.



We dont want a code snippet. It would be pointless. We just want to know how you stop the animation playing AFTER I have completed the gear change movements MYSELF.

The trouble is you have gut hung up on the word LAG and assumed it means something OTHER than what we are talking about. Look at the context because the mechanical side of things is simple, a control action happens which triggers an animation.

What we are ACTUALLY talking about is that the animation will NOT play until AFTER the gear has changed.

There will be a DELAY (replacement word for lag in this situation) between ME changing gear using MY H shifter and the virtual driver changing gear. The virtual driver will not change gear until the gear HAS ALREADY BEEN CHANGED.

Is it really that hard to comprehend. It MUST be because EVERYONE else in this thread understands EXACTLY what we are talking about apart from YOU!


Lag is a common term used to describe a symptom often encountered in computing and especially networked systems, where results of actions appear much later than expected. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag

[Woz]

Lag is a common term used to describe a symptom often encountered in computing and especially networked systems, where results of actions appear much later than expected.

And that is EXACTLY what we have been talking about. The animation would happen much later than expected.

Or said another way. The animation would lag behind the action.

Care to dig yourself any deeper.

:munching_

[ciph]

Explain me why would the shifting happen before the animation?

[Woz]

Explain me why would the shifting happen before the animation?

I HAVE.

Look at the timeline I posted.

If you dont understand how to read it. One side shows my actions and the other shows the virtual driver actions. The actions are listed when they happen. When there is an action in both sides on the same line it means they happen at the same time. If only one side has an action it means nothing happens in the other side while the action occurs.

Hopefully you will now understand what we have been talking about. You should NOW be able to see that the driver animations LAGS the real drivers actions.

I even edited the timeline to show the event that triggers the animation.

[ciph]

Whatever.. real life calls me now

[Woz]

Whatever.. real life calls me now

Translated... You still dont understand lol

[dawesdust_12]

Guys, why can't we just get back to friendly conversations about knobs?

[Ian.H]

Guys, why can't we just get back to friendly conversations about knobs?

If I go back through some of my mail archives, I can probably get you a huge discount on making one larger, so much so it can apparently hurt the one you care for! (a great selling point :really: )



Regards,

Ian

[Bob Smith]

We had this same problem at work with Ferrari Challenge. Our solution was to make the gear changes really long, up to 0.8 secs in some cases. Hardly the route you wish to go in a sim (where you expect full control).

[Dajmin]

I still don't think it needs quite that much delay. IIRC, Porsche Unleashed managed it without any major delay to the actual gear changing process.

People with a clutch could get it really easy. Simply move the hand over to rest on the knob when the clutch is engaged, ready for the animation to play when the gear is actually shifted.

The animation wouldn't be as smooth for non-clutch users though. Look at the way some racing drivers change gear IRL. Their hand is barely on the stick for a fraction of a second, they pretty much just flick it with their fingertips. That means you could start the "quick" animation when you change gear and it'd only take a tiny amount of time to play. Could probably be animated in about 8 frames :)

[Woz]

People with a clutch could get it really easy. Simply move the hand over to rest on the knob when the clutch is engaged, ready for the animation to play when the gear is actually shifted.

The only problem here is if you clutch kick because you will see the hand reach for the shifter each time.

It would also need subtle things like if you are in say the last 100M of a corner the hand should stay on the stick for something like 1 second after a downshift otherwise it will look stupid as you bang down the gears. Keeping the hand on the stick would look more realistic.

[Stefani24]

why not making it like gtl, move the hand to the shifter when 500 rpm before shifting point?
and only local, dont send this to server, in gpl it works, so why not in lfs?

[fraghetti]

Because not every car revs 500 up so fast. How would it be with downshift, huh? :scratchch Other than that, everybody has another shift point i guess, some people want to shift at realistic ones, some shift where the perfect time is to.

[mrminor28]

dont need this , because driver off wheel off. with wheel i have own hands and wheel why in game need morE ? :scratchch:scratchch

[March Hare]

Wouldn't make the slightest difference to me as far as playing LFS is conserned. I use 70* fov so I wouldn't see the animation even if it was implemented.

As for the development of LFS. I would much rather have the devs spending time improving the physics / the damage model / the collision system than something as trivial as a virtual hand wanking a virtual stick.

[Dajmin]

Wouldn't make the slightest difference to me as far as playing LFS is conserned. I use 70* fov so I wouldn't see the animation even if it was implemented.

As for the development of LFS. I would much rather have the devs spending time improving the physics / the damage model / the collision system than something as trivial as a virtual hand wanking a virtual stick.
Nice mature answer there: "Doesn't affect me, I don't care".
I have drivers off anyway, so I wouldn't see it either. Doesn't mean some people don't have them on and would see them.

I think the point of this entire section is to point out things that might not occur to the devs. Physics, collisions, damage models are all standard things for a simulator and will get updated in due course. But recently a lot of suggestions started in this forum have been added. If someone hadn't said it they might not.

Please, if you have nothing worthwhile to add to a debate (or in this case a suggestion) don't waste the time it takes to post.

[Ikaponthus]

I will chip in with my 2c here:

I like the way the hand changes gear in GTR2 etc. Never even noticed the lag at all until I read it here. I guess I'm too busy looking ahead into the oncoming corner. :shrug:

While I agree there is more important things to be done, I think it really adds to the "finish" and immersion of a game anyway.

I'd rather the hand changed gear or there was just no visible hands on the steering wheel at all.

[atlantian]

^just pretend that your guy has paddle shifters :D

[March Hare]

You guys do know that you can turn the hands off, don't you?

[dawesdust_12]

but then who's sexy hands would I get to admire?

My own?! Bah :p

[atlantian]

how about having the guy have 3 arms? problem solved...

he doesn't step on the pedal when you press clutch? no prob, give him a third leg!

[DieKolkrabe]

^ Pointless

Zaphod isn't in the game.

And it's Live for Speed. Not Live for Alien

But some of the WR Times would suggest otherwise...

[atlantian]

lol, what about the "third leg" idea?(hint hint)

[DieKolkrabe]

This is a PG forum...
Or are you on about stools?

DK

[dawesdust_12]

You mean you're not supposed to be able to use it as a kickstand to hold yourself upright when your legs are sore?

Oops, my bad.

[atlantian]

This is a PG forum...
Or are you on about stools?

DK
yeah, roflolmaoz... sorry, won't mention anything sexual again

[Woz]

why not making it like gtl, move the hand to the shifter when 500 rpm before shifting point?
and only local, dont send this to server, in gpl it works, so why not in lfs?

Because the car might be geared to not require a change in a corner and you will then see the driver reach for the gears every time in that corner when the gears will not change

[JO53PHS]

How about the driver puts his hand on the gear leaver near the required RPM (or when the clutch is pressed) so that he is ready for a change :shrug:

[BIzO]

Why does everyone say animations lag? That some kind of dumbness people spread..

+1

[Jakg]

Oh not this again.

When i flick the paddle that is the FIRST time LFS knows i want to change - you'd then have to play a (albeit short animation) of the driver moving his hand to the gear stick and change gear.

[Woz]

+1

I hate to ask but did you just read the first couple of posts and then post your huge post of wisdom.

It has been shown in this thread WHY the animation lags and there is even a timeline showing WHY the animation lags. If you have gone through the thread and still fail to understand you are a lost cause.

Please rewind to page one and read ALL of the posts. If you still need to ask please feel free so we can see the level of your stupidity and know how slowly we neeed to talk so that you can see.

:)

[m374llic4]

No one else has to see the change, its no different then the animation of the moving his arms when you turn the wheel. If the animation is only done locally it would cause near no visual performance issues. It would not lag in the least as there is no need to process anything server side for an animation that is done locally.

[Jakg]

No one else has to see the change, its no different then the animation of the moving his arms when you turn the wheel. If the animation is only done locally it would cause near no visual performance issues. It would not lag in the least as there is no need to process anything server side for an animation that is done locally.
*sigh*

Lag doesn't have to mean Internet lag.

[m374llic4]

*sigh*

Lag doesn't have to mean Internet lag.

Sure it does,

Lag is used in place of Latency.
"Latency is the proper name for the time it takes a packet of information to be sent from the sender to the receiver over a network."

What your talking about is drop in frame rates due to inadequate processing power.

People just need to be more specific I guess : \. That and they need to calm the hell down. People just jump on you for anything you say, its always wrong, and your always a noob. heh, which is why in my 5 years of playing this game i have but 50 posts.

[Jakg]

What your talking about is drop in frame rates due to inadequate processing power.No, what i'm on about is lag - latency, whatever. Lag doesnt have to mean internet, it can JUST mean latency.

[atlantian]

how about having the hand be permanently ON the shifter like Dr. Toshiya Joushima (AKA: god hand) from initial d :D

[m374llic4]

No, what i'm on about is lag - latency, whatever. Lag doesnt have to mean internet, it can JUST mean latency.

Hah, bud, but latency mean internet. It is the time it takes for a packet to travel from its source to destination through the internet. So when you say latency/lag, thats what is coming out, it may not be what you are meaning, but thats what it is : P

[Jakg]

what?! Latency does NOT mean "internet". latency can be used on memory for example (CAS LATENCY). Can be used in other stuff, to...

[m374llic4]

what?! Latency does NOT mean "internet". latency can be used on memory for example (CAS LATENCY). Can be used in other stuff, to...

You know what, you are correct in that. I have forgotten about it being used in that fashion. Do accept my apologies kind sir.

[Inouva]

How about the driver puts his hand on the gear leaver near the required RPM (or when the clutch is pressed) so that he is ready for a change :shrug:

Nice

+1

agree

@ontopick

If lfs it´s mean Real simulation Shoul have the gear change animation
also too for sequential gears when the GTR interiors be finish

But i dont wanna say do it now , lfs need thing to improve more urgent
Like colisions detections and others thing , i sugest this but with a realy low priority

[Woz]

*sigh*

Why are there so many STUPID PEOPLE that have no understanding of what words actually mean mean :)

All lag means is that an expected action occurs LATER than expected. Go and look it up.

Is that so hard to understand. When we say the animation will lag it means the animation will happen AFTER the gear has changed. You will change gear and then you will see the driver change gear.

We do not mean it will effect FPS, net connections or ANYTHING ELSE.

[atlantian]

*cough cough**coughing up blood*
how about having the hand be permanently ON the shifter like Dr. Toshiya Joushima (AKA: god hand) from initial d :D

[dawesdust_12]

You want the driver to have his hand on his knob constantly?!

[atlantian]

of course! of course! a horse is a horse!

[the_angry_angel]

how about having the hand be permanently ON the shifter like Dr. Toshiya Joushima (AKA: god hand) from initial d :DThat's dangerous :p You'll also be attracting the "a real driver wouldn't be driving with one hand!" (aka the realism brigade).

[atlantian]

That's dangerous :P You'll also be attracting the "a real driver wouldn't be driving with one hand!" (aka the realism brigade).
oh, right,

[m374llic4]

I usually drive with one hand on wheel, other on shifter D : but thats because my car rips through gears so damn fast >_<

[atlantian]

do you do 4 wheel slides to clear narrow corners? :razz:

[m374llic4]

do you do 4 wheel slides to clear narrow corners? :razz:

Try to, but in Tampa theres not much of anything to do, to many stupid drivers and old people : \

[Woz]

*cough cough**coughing up blood*
how about having the hand be permanently ON the shifter like Dr. Toshiya Joushima (AKA: god hand) from initial d :D

Because this is not cartoon but a race simulation and if you han not noticed drivers normally hold the wheel when they do not need to change gear because they need to control the car. :)

[atlantian]

yeah, we should also include Ronald McDonald, and we should have Naruto and Sasuke, and perhaps even some pokemon running around the track, you know you gotta catch them all! :thumb:

[Woz]

I usually drive with one hand on wheel, other on shifter D : but thats because my car rips through gears so damn fast >_<

Please don't say your seat is also low so you can only just see over the dash and your arms are at full reach as well just to hold the wheel.

If you actually really do push your car and only have one hand on the wheel you are asking for a MAJOR smash.

Guess its your life you are playing with. Just hope you don't kill someone that has nothing to do with your stupidity :)

[atlantian]

jesus, what is with the people with such strong beliefs against anything that resembles danger? racing is all about risking you life by hurtling through narrow paths of pavement with nothing between you and the asphalt except for a thin sheet of aluminum... and developing the skill to avoid death:shrug:

[Woz]

jesus, what is with the people with such strong beliefs against anything that resembles danger? racing is all about risking you life by hurtling through narrow paths of pavement with nothing between you and the asphalt except for a thin sheet of aluminum... and developing the skill to avoid death:shrug:

Because if you really do push a car and try to hold the edge of grip on public roads and only have one hand on the wheel that is more than just the problem of the driver.

If you can't see the the risk then you are stupid.

I have said before elsewhere

Track = safe(ish) with sand traps and crash barriers, no traffic coming at you on blind corners.

Road = dead people.

The person in question sounds like this is what he does on public roads. People need to grow up and if you want to push a car GO ON THE TRACK.

Yes racing is about "calculated risk". Driving one handed at speed does not help you win a race BTW, it helps you crash.

[m374llic4]

Please don't say your seat is also low so you can only just see over the dash and your arms are at full reach as well just to hold the wheel.

If you actually really do push your car and only have one hand on the wheel you are asking for a MAJOR smash.

Guess its your life you are playing with. Just hope you don't kill someone that has nothing to do with your stupidity :)

no, im not some damn thug.

Because if you really do push a car and try to hold the edge of grip on public roads and only have one hand on the wheel that is more than just the problem of the driver.

If you can't see the the risk then you are stupid.

I have said before elsewhere

Track = safe(ish) with sand traps and crash barriers, no traffic coming at you on blind corners.

Road = dead people.

The person in question sounds like this is what he does on public roads. People need to grow up and if you want to push a car GO ON THE TRACK.

Yes racing is about "calculated risk". Driving one handed at speed does not help you win a race BTW, it helps you crash.


Who said anything about racing? I don't go around racing everyone like an idiot. Have you any idea how many horrible drivers there are in Florida? like 85%. I am not looking to get my hard work trashed over a civic. While on the highway, or at any decent speed I have my hands on the wheel.



The assumptions you keep making are just making you sound like a fool.

[Woz]

Who said anything about racing? I don't go around racing everyone like an idiot. Have you any idea how many horrible drivers there are in Florida? like 85%. I am not looking to get my hard work trashed over a civic. While on the highway, or at any decent speed I have my hands on the wheel.



The assumptions you keep making are just making you sound like a fool.

Sorry but was the way you were talking.

Yep, the world has started filling up with the idiot boy racers. Here in NZ we have just as many. Just done a road trip up north and had too many people sit 3mm from bumper down hill with blind corners.

Short fuse day :)

[m374llic4]

Sorry but was the way you were talking.

Yep, the world has started filling up with the idiot boy racers. Here in NZ we have just as many. Just done a road trip up north and had too many people sit 3mm from bumper down hill with blind corners.

Short fuse day :)

Its all good pal, I just hate how some of users on this forum tend to jump down someones throat for anything they don't agree with : \

I know how the short fuse goes >_< one of those damn weeks for me as well.

[Inouva]

Mmm , just ask , Why dont wanna the gear change stick animation?

Hard code ? , Low Fps ? , Unrealistic ?

I dont get it , should be , because LFS aim to real simulation , so , if aim to real sim , shoul be be the gear stick animation , like the Breake temp , or oil presure or engine temp , and many things

Maybe in the near future do this , or maybe in s3 , but why ppl dont wanna this?

If talk in real life the 60% or 70% of car in the WORLD have manual gears
And race cars (Not all) have to , also sequential or shift pad in the wheel

If you drive a automatic car and you dont wanna this , is your problem because LFS is Real Car Simulator

[Woz]

Mmm , just ask , Why dont wanna the gear change stick animation?

Hard code ? , Low Fps ? , Unrealistic ?

I dont get it , should be , because LFS aim to real simulation , so , if aim to real sim , shoul be be the gear stick animation , like the Breake temp , or oil presure or engine temp , and many things

Maybe in the near future do this , or maybe in s3 , but why ppl dont wanna this?

If talk in real life the 60% or 70% of car in the WORLD have manual gears
And race cars (Not all) have to , also sequential or shift pad in the wheel

If you drive a automatic car and you dont wanna this , is your problem because LFS is Real Car Simulator

Its not people don't want it its more working out how to make it happen when you change the gears and not after you change the gear, otherwise it looks a little daft.

There will be lag between when you change and when the virtual driver changes gear, Its how to minimise that lag.

Most techniques require prediction of when a change is most likely but then this creates situations where the driver will reach for the stick when gear change is not required.

[dawesdust_12]

Use past laps as a base for the animation, so when on a first lap, it'll be shit, but every lap, it slowly adapts to the combo and creates nicer animations?

[atlantian]

... i think i know how grand turimso did the animation... the 4 "action buttons" that the sixaxis has is pressure sensitive, the animation can be fast, but the thing is it starts when the player starts to press on the button, there might be some retarded glitch, like when you swipe your finger across the top of the button, but hey, that's okey...

and i think it would be great, if we have the animation kick in when the clutch is ~75% engaged

[Gekkibi]

Lots of wise words
...What do you expect when they give a driving license to a 16 years old children?

[dawesdust_12]

Don't generalize, some 16 year olds are decent and responsible drivers.

[Gekkibi]

Don't generalize, some 16 year olds are decent and responsible drivers.

Indeed, some. But not all of 'em. Heck, imho age for driver license should be around 22-25. I have seen so many recless 18 years old that it makes me feel sick.

Same with alcohol and tobacco (And much tighter control, meaning bigger penalties to those who sells 'em to minors).

Call me an old fashioned, but this is my opinion how I can turn this world a better place to live...

[LFSn00b]

Because not every car revs 500 up so fast. How would it be with downshift, huh? :scratchch Other than that, everybody has another shift point i guess, some people want to shift at realistic ones, some shift where the perfect time is to.Maybe an optional setting to set the hand to a specific rpm where it shifts?

[Inouva]

I still dont get it , WHY is so hard to do this

In some game the have the animation and i dont see the LAtency or lag or drop fps , is juts simple to do i think , only move the arm when you press your (boton) to change the gear , is not big problem

If other game can do it , why is so hard to do here :shrug:

[nihil]

I still dont get it , WHY is so hard to do this


Erm... Its taken how many years to throw together a few GTR interiors? I wouldn't hold my breath for this if I were you...

[Jakg]

In some game the have the animation and i dont see the LAtency or lag or drop fps , is juts simple to do i think , only move the arm when you press your (boton) to change the gear , is not big problemARGH!

PLEASE READ the thread. You've TOTALLY misunderstood.

[Inouva]

ARGH!

PLEASE READ the thread. You've TOTALLY misunderstood.

i read all , basicaly , dev need change the animation of the driver to create a new can fit all (steer and change gear)

Sorry if i slow to undertand this , but understand all this in english and think in one answer in english is not to easy

Can exprees better if talk in Spanish =/

[atlantian]

I still dont get it , WHY is so hard to do this

In some game the have the animation and i dont see the LAtency or lag or drop fps , is juts simple to do i think , only move the arm when you press your (boton) to change the gear , is not big problem

If other game can do it , why is so hard to do here


@Inouva i don't think you get the situation here, we are saying that there will be a time frame from which your character has it's shift hand off the wheel and reaching for the shifter... It's like the reload animation in an FPS...

waiting for that animation sequence may be acceptable with Counter Strike players, but it's not acceptable in racing

since, we want realism and we are all moving so quickly, anything(the essential controls) that we have to wait for(that is important) will cause a crash... and your brain knows you have to shift at the end of a straight, and you will subconsciously reach for the shifter with your hand, and when you think "shift" you will do it, that is why there is no wait for you to shift after you think it.

Here's a solution:
a)if you insist on having the animation and you are a keyboard or game pad gamer, strap a "brain scanning" helmet on and the animation will initiate when you think it.

b)if you don't care for glitchy "flicking-of-the-hand-towards-shifter" animation whenever you kick the clutch, then just have the shift animation be linked to the clutch.

c)the best solution by far, just have a nose view of the car, with nothing except for the car displays(tach and speedo) floating(no wheels); and have a steering wheel set in real life!

[Inouva]

Well , sorry i never discuss this type of tread any more

[Woz]

Well , sorry i never discuss this type of tread any more

Don't worry. I think the problem is more you appear to have seen the word LAG and assumed it means something different than the context it is used here. We do not mean there will be an effect on your net connection or that it will effect your FPS.

The CPU power required to play the animation of the arm moving is tiny and will not slow down anything at all.

Most people that have questioned what we are talking about say, whats the prob. Just play the animation when you press the gear change button. Yep that is simple and easy to do.
The trouble is that when you press the button the gear changes but then the animation will start. So you will feel all the effects of the gear change and after that has happened you will watch the arm reach for the gearstick and change the gear.

The situation is worse for those of us with H shifters because we will move our arms to the shifter, change gear and as our arms move back to the wheel the drivers arms on screen will be moving to the gear stick.

By lag me just mean the animation of the driver changing the gear will happen AFTER the gear has changed.

Does that help :)

[atlantian]

well, does my post sum everything up? btw, GT5 just has the hand go to the shifter when it's a probable shift point, so like, you go below 3k, hand on, you go above 6.5k, hand on. you can just randomly shift around, but the glitch doesn't matter.

[Inouva]

Don't worry. I think the problem is more you appear to have seen the word LAG and assumed it means something different than the context it is used here. We do not mean there will be an effect on your net connection or that it will effect your FPS.

The CPU power required to play the animation of the arm moving is tiny and will not slow down anything at all.

Most people that have questioned what we are talking about say, whats the prob. Just play the animation when you press the gear change button. Yep that is simple and easy to do.
The trouble is that when you press the button the gear changes but then the animation will start. So you will feel all the effects of the gear change and after that has happened you will watch the arm reach for the gearstick and change the gear.

The situation is worse for those of us with H shifters because we will move our arms to the shifter, change gear and as our arms move back to the wheel the drivers arms on screen will be moving to the gear stick.

By lag me just mean the animation of the driver changing the gear will happen AFTER the gear has changed.

Does that help :)

I see now the problem

One option be , toggle the animation "on or off" if you wanna see that or not

[atlantian]

^not really, because, then the people with animation off will have an advantage...

[Inouva]

^not really, because, then the people with animation off will have an advantage...

What advantage ?

Is just for eye candy

[atlantian]

don't you remember what we have been saying?

the animation is only extra filler delay of animation before the gear change is actually initiated...

with animation on:[touch button]["i reach for the shifter"][gear change]

with animation off:[touch button][gear change]

[Inouva]

don't you remember what we have been saying?

the animation is only extra filler delay of animation before the gear change is actually initiated...

with animation on:[touch button]["i reach for the shifter"][gear change]

with animation off:[touch button][gear change]

This vid explain what you say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-3S_RfOBuM

sorry if i am slow to understand =(

[atlantian]

i am assuming that the hand goes to the shifter when you have the foot on the clutch...

[juejue]

Im no expert by any means but I kinda get old reading LAG being quite misunderstood.

I think it might be possible to do what some one said previous about having the hand on the shifter in a Lower RPM and on a Higher RPM to prepare for a shit but after the shift has been made, the hand remains to go back to the wheel AFTER it gets out of the lower RPMs.

And you cant have the hand on the shifter when the clutch is activated because theres too many different types of driving that would confuse it and make it impossible to eliminate the different possiblities as to where WHY exactly the clutch is activated meaing to shift or clutch kick, whichever.

I dont want to get flamed if my idea does not work but just simply saying that it wont work.

[Inouva]

i am assuming that the hand goes to the shifter when you have the foot on the clutch...

i think no , but the vid show what are you talking?

[DieKolkrabe]

Im no expert by any means but I kinda get old reading LAG being quite misunderstood.

I think it might be possible to do what some one said previous about having the hand on the shifter in a Lower RPM and on a Higher RPM to prepare for a shit but after the shift has been made, the hand remains to go back to the wheel AFTER it gets out of the lower RPMs.

And you cant have the hand on the shifter when the clutch is activated because theres too many different types of driving that would confuse it and make it impossible to eliminate the different possiblities as to where WHY exactly the clutch is activated meaing to shift or clutch kick, whichever.

I dont want to get flamed if my idea does not work but just simply saying that it wont work.

Is that for bad drivers? :P Or for the toilet car in S3?

On-topic, I don't see a way it can be practical. If you go for RPM points, not everyone shifts at the same RPM, if you go for an animation, it lags behind the player shifting.

DK

[duke_toaster]

Now that IS an ouchtastic typo :schwitz:

[DieKolkrabe]

^ What he said

Bad drivers make bad shits

Rest of us make perfect shifts

See my logic?

-runs-

DK

[Inouva]

Is that for bad drivers? :P Or for the toilet car in S3?

On-topic, I don't see a way it can be practical. If you go for RPM points, not everyone shifts at the same RPM, if you go for an animation, it lags behind the player shifting.

DK

Same here , i have my own Point to change gear

[atlantian]

i think no , but the vid show what are you talking?
i can't see the pedals(like throttle view in LFS) so i don't know if the hand is going to the shifter when the clutch is depressed...

[Inouva]

i can't see the pedals(like throttle view in LFS) so i don't know if the hand is going to the shifter when the clutch is depressed...


OK , but in the vid , show what are you talking and understand now the situation.

We should w8 to dev if implement this on s3 or after and how it solver that problem

[atlantian]

i like the clutch triggered animation, or the "god hand" solution :D

[juejue]

LMAO, yeah that was a really bad typo, my bad.

But it could go on at suitable rpm range, the only downside to that is it wont show it if you shift in the 4k range or something really low.