Catching a spin in a FOX

[Dissident]

I've been driving the XFG and I feel pretty comfortable driving it close to the limit. I can feel it when I've pushed too far in a corner and I'm able to catch it most of the time.

But I've recently started driving the FOX and it's so much more difficult. Whenever the car starts losing grip, I'm not able to catch it: accelerate and the spin gets worse, brake and you just do a slow-motion curve to the side of the track, countersteer and it feels like Holiday On Ice.

So how do you catch a spin on the FOX ?

[AndroidXP]

1) Be quick
2) Don't stay on or go off the throttle - just ease up a little so you're applying about 50-75% throttle
3) Counter steer, but stop doing it slightly *before* the car snaps back
4) Don't touch the brakes, period
5) Practise

PS: Catching oversteer on the XFG is ridiculously easy, so you stating that you're only able to catch it "most of the time" heavily suggests you need way WAY more of point #5 ;)

\/\/\/ Beat ya! :p

[tristancliffe]

The FOX has the engine out the back, so you've got to be quick. Most people, in both games and reality don't realise they need to correct for ages into a slide. You need to sense the slide MUCH earlier - even predict it.

Then the best way is to come off the throttle slightly, and apply opposite lock. Make sure you remove the opposite lock when the grip returns, else you'll overcorrect and spin the other way. Don't floor it (won't help in RWD 99% of the time), and don't lift off (last thing you want to do is reduce load on the rear tyres!).

The FOX is, in my opinion, by far the easiest car to drive in LFS, including the XFG, so it shouldn't take you long to drive.

[tinvek]

it comes with experience, like tris i find the fox pretty easy to catch when it slides now (unless i'm too tired or being heavy handed (footed?) ) yet at first it seemed really hard to catch

[BlueFlame]

I agree with tristan, once you know know the track, you know what kind of characteristics of the corners are, and at some corners, you have to predict a slide, so be ready for it. With some corners say on AS CLUB (seems to be a popular track for public FOX racing) The final corner into the chicane is a bit of a trouble on the exit, so when you are feeding the power on, just be ready for the little correction, I have found, if you are fast enough on the correction, it is almost straight immediately, but if you leave this 'fast correction' too late, it makes no difference.

Predict what the car is going to do, but don't think about how the car will be all around the track, just in some kinds of corners, where it is a possibility that the car can spin.:thumbsup:

[yoyoML]

I find that if you go into too big a slide and are countersteering heavily, after catching it and just before being snapped back to the other way, it helps to stab the throttle momentarily.

Like said, catching the XFG is quite easy, as easy as flooring the throttle 90% of the time. Try driving/sliding/catching a RWD instead.

[Dissident]

Thanks for all the tips, I'll try to keep them in mind.

[Danny30]

Hello!

I´m a newbie in LFS but I do have some real life driving(not racing) experience. I have started to learn LFS using the lx4 on Blackwood Gp.I have gradually built my own setup, too.

Even though my experience is limited I would warmly recommend this combination! The lx4 is quite a tricky car to drive fast (PB at the moment 1.27.47 using my own design-setup) but you really learn to live with a slippery rear...
And you definitely learn to catch a spin!!!:)

I´ve done approximately 150 laps on Blackwood with this car mostly in 15-20 lap segments.

Today I tried to race some of the other cars(XFG and FOX...), and surprisingly most of them felt a lot easier to drive.

T.Danny30

[The General Lee]

I find, on some high speed corners, shifting down a gear helps keep the slide under control. Not to sure about the slower corners. But shifting down always works at the first chicane at Aston Club.

[BlueFlame]

the lx4 is a little bit different tho, because of the FOX's initial grip, when you catch a slide in the LX4 it gradualy comes back to where you want it to be, in the FOX, it is usually quite violent in it's recovery

[Gizz]

The FOX has the engine out the back, so you've got to be quick. Most people, in both games and reality don't realise they need to correct for ages into a slide. You need to sense the slide MUCH earlier - even predict it.

Then the best way is to come off the throttle slightly, and apply opposite lock. Make sure you remove the opposite lock when the grip returns, else you'll overcorrect and spin the other way. Don't floor it (won't help in RWD 99% of the time), and don't lift off (last thing you want to do is reduce load on the rear tyres!).

The FOX is, in my opinion, by far the easiest car to drive in LFS, including the XFG, so it shouldn't take you long to drive.

dont think there's anymore to add, things just happen faster and a bit more savage, but as said above you carnt get a easyier car to drive/race, the thing goes round on rails, thats why i like the FV8 still better than F1 car..... in the S-S class cars though if you dont catch it in time your going off or gona spin, with the other cars i find you can leave a imanant slide for what seems weeks and still be able to correct it but i only drive S-S cars, so its probably just me :smileypul practice practice practice :thumb:

[Heph]

The problem with the FOX (and most mid engined cars) is not to catch the slide, but to get the wheels back fast enough to avoid the car snapping back the other way ("coup de raquette" in french) ...

I drive a Lotus Elise IRL and have had this problem quite a few times (on track hopefully :D). You've got to feel when you loose rotationnal speed, then it's time to get the wheels straight or else it'll snap back.
As for the gaz pedal, you shouldn't floor it (you'll loose any grip) nor lift off (you might loose grip and regain grip too abruptly) just ease off the throttle a little (you had too much obviously :razz:) and use the steering to catch the slide.

IRL, you can brake while keeping some throttle (left foot braking), that way you'll move the brake bias much forward and the front wheels will start to slide. It works surpinsingly well but it's not natural. I haven't tried that yet on LFS... Might try it tonight :nod:

[LRB_Aly]

IRL, you can brake while keeping some throttle (left foot braking), that way you'll move the brake bias much forward and the front wheels will start to slide. It works surpinsingly well but it's not natural. I haven't tried that yet on LFS... Might try it tonight :nod:


It works fine in LFS, have to use it sometimes myself.

[sinbad]

Go out and drive like a hooligan, deliberately slide all over the place. You'll get a feeling for correcting, quickly understand where the limit is.

What you have to do when a slide occurs depends a lot on what you did to cause it and the situation you find yourself in. You don't have to lift every time - often it's easier to just keep your foot in and quickly correct with the steering, but it depends how much room you have because doing this sends you towards the outside of the corner sooner, after all it's caused by trying to steer too tight a line. Only lift if you won't have room or if you don't react in time, but as said above, you never have to lift all the way off to correct a "normal" FOX slide.

[Jamexing]

Left foot braking with part throttle. An advanced technique though, much better for getting the most of the rear brake bias required to take maximum advantage of rear brake force than catching slide, but its all good nonetheless. LFB whilst on part throttle, done just right (depending on intent), effectively turns your RWD car into a front brakes only machine. The brakes also have a secondary effect of forcing the front wheels to behave as if they are connected via a super tight clutch pack LSD. This alone generates significant stabilization.


BTW, the above explained LFB technique can be extended to DELIBERATELY generate extra rotation on entry, useful when you are say on not so grippy gravel. The front LSD effect moderates the yaw rate whilst extra throttle spins the rears up a bit, generating oversteer if yawing force is applied. Works for both RWDs and some AWDs.

On FWDs, you can achieve a similar effect but via a different route. Just before turn in, slightly release brake pressure or maintain it, depending on exact condition) whilst adding steering and throttle simultaneously. This allows a hand brake turn effect as the car acts as if the hand brakes are on, but can be much more easily and quickly stabilized with just a bit less brake or a bit more throttle. Great for all sorts of conditions but especially on low grip surfaces.

[J.B.]

IMO using LFB to catch oversteer only works in LFS because the setups all have unrealistically far forward brake balance.

[Gizz]

IMO using LFB to catch oversteer only works in LFS because the setups all have unrealistically far forward brake balance.

not sure i agree with why LFB works and its conection to setups, but i do agree brake balance in LFS is way to forward biased, this causes untold problems with front tires, but we have the best team working on this game so i have no dout it will be sorted one day :thumb:

[Heph]

IMO using LFB to catch oversteer only works in LFS because the setups all have unrealistically far forward brake balance.

LFB alone won't catch any oversteer (not with the set I use anyway).
We were talking LFB + some throttle. This will indeed move the brake bias far forward .

Beside, trust me, it works IRL:nod:

LFB is not so hard to use in LFS, I expect most driver to LFB, at least the one who don't have clutch... I agree that using LFB on a setup with the clutch is more difficult because you end up using the brake pedal with both foot.
It becomes even more complicated when you shift down with heel & toe, and then get your left foot on the brake to free the right foot for throttle. It helps controlling the stance of the car during the transition between brake and throttle and eliminate the time lost between braking and accelerating... :schwitz:

[J.B.]

If it works in real life then show me one video clip of a racing driver using it to correct oversteer.

I used to use this technique sometimes in LFS but it doesn't work anymore for me since the diff preload allows me to use more realistic brake balance.

[Impreza WRX]

Practice a lot with the LX6, then move onto the FOX. The XFG is front wheel drive, so it should not ever oversteer unless you did something wrong.

[bbman]

Practice a lot with the LX6, then move onto the FOX. The XFG is front wheel drive, so it should not ever oversteer unless you did something wrong.

As much as an RWD can be set up to only understeer, a FWD can be set up to oversteer no problem... In fact, all the FWD cars in LfS are!

Why is it always the dumbest things that get quoted to eternity?

[thisnameistaken]

Why is it always the dumbest things that get quoted to eternity?

Sorry, couldn't resist... :shy:

[Gentlefoot]

The FOX really can be set up to be very easy to catch a slide. Go and get one of my set ups from LFS Car Setups (http://gentlefoot.com/sets.html)

You should pick a track with a few slower corners to help you practice catching the oversteer.

You have to be quick with the opposite lock - experience with the car will mean you can anticipate the oversteer earlier so just practice.

If you are having trouble with my set you can make it easier to catch the slide by making the following adjustments:

-reduce the amount of differential power locking. This will allow the inside wheel to spin up more making the slide easier to catch.

-add some front ARB - just one or two clicks.

-add 1 click of rear downforce.

These changes will however make the set slightly slower.

Good luck. My LFS Track Guides (http://gentlefoot.com/trackguides.html) page should help too.

[Dissident]

-reduce the amount of differential power locking. This will allow the inside wheel to spin up more making the slide easier to catch.


This change (I went from 75% to 60%) made lots of improvement. It has gotten much more fun driving the FOX and now I'm down to 1:10.50 on BL GP, with a TPB of 1:09.70. Thanks a lot, Gentlefoot :thumb:

[Gizz]

This change (I went from 75% to 60%) made lots of improvement. It has gotten much more fun driving the FOX and now I'm down to 1:10.50 on BL GP, with a TPB of 1:09.70. Thanks a lot, Gentlefoot :thumb:

dont thank gentlefoot!!! his head is big enough already :D

[Heph]

If it works in real life then show me one video clip of a racing driver using it to correct oversteer.


If you want a video showing this technique (and others), try "Bending the Rules". It can get boring but is very informative and was made by english driving instructor (Andrew Walsh) who used to be a F1 test driver...

I might post a short extract from this video but right now I'm moving so my DVDs are packed... And I never tried cutting a short extract out of a DVD :razz:

[J.B.]

Thx, I found a short clip here. (http://www.carlimits.com/shop/product.php?p=27) . Looks interesting, would you say it's worth ordering even if you don't a real car to apply the techniques yourself?

BTW if you want to cut part of a DVD the best way is to first save the VOB files to HD using DVD Decrypter and then cutting using Videoredo or Virtualdub.

[Shotglass]

isnt that short clip just the technique weve been talking about ? catching oversteer by locking the front wheels

[KartRacer]

The best explanation for a slide in a formula car was given to me by a Jim Russell driving instructor, I'm not sure where it originates.

"A open-wheel formula car acts like a dart flying backwards"

What I got out of that is; once it wants to turn around on you, you're probably already backwards.

Corrections need to be made very early and very smooth. The corrections are usually made before you can visually notice the car sliding, the steering wheel movement is very small and quick. The return of the counter-steer is also important. It needs to be quick as well, but it needs to build up to the original steering angle or the rear will snap again. Concerning the throttle and brakes, unless it is power oversteer (which is not a common issue in the FOX), the pedals shouldn't move. They shouldn't move because you will upset the pitch and fore-aft weight transfer, which will make the cars grip less predictable and much more difficult to correct.

Sometimes the correction or "catch" isn't even counter-steer, rather its just less steering angle and a pause on the pedals. This lets the tires catch up with what your asking them to do, with out upsetting the car too much.

It takes lots of time to get fast and comfortable in a open-wheel car. While its difficult in all cars, open-wheel cars are particularly challenging regarding correcting mistakes without causing extreme negative results. Theres nothing you can read to teach it to you, its muscle memory, hand-eye coordination and just plan experience. After a while you will notice your hands moving with absolutely no apparent thought crossing your mind of a "slide."

I'm no expert, but I'm fairly sure all of that is, more or less, some good advice. Keep driving :)

Concerning the left foot braking idea, well it might work in LFS, but in real life your more or less asking to continue off the track at that angle right then. No more the bias, brakes transfer weight to the front, increasing the grip of the front and reducing the grip in the rear. Locking the fronts takes away nearly all the grip in the front and by doing that stops the slide because of the balance of grip front to rear. Or, it may stop the slide because it locks up all four tires, which stops and reduces all control and grip the tires had, so the car holds that angle and slides wherever its heading. If you ever talk to any driving instructors, the last thing you want to do is abruptly lift and even worse than that, would be brake "jabbing." If you've ever seen a car spin because a car in front spun its because the car behind abruptly lifted and/or slammed on the brakes, which makes the weight go to the front and thus, spins the car right around. Braking to save a slide should only be used in circumstances where the car is no where near the point of recovery and if it wasn't used the car would for sure quickly loop around and go off the track. Thats why at most driving schools, they pound the idea of two feet in. You start to spin, slam on the brakes and if you can the clutch. This makes the car slide in which ever direction its heading very predictably so that people behind you can make a decision on where to go around you. It more or less eliminates the possibility to smoothly catch a slide in my opinion.

[J.B.]

isnt that short clip just the technique weve been talking about ? catching oversteer by locking the front wheels

Agree. And race cars don't have the forward bias of a road going Elise. That's why I asked earlier for a clip of a racing driver doing something like that in a real race car.

This brings up a question that IMO hasn't been considered enough: Why do LFS cars need so much forward brake bias and so much diff coast locking? (A typical brake balance value for a Formula Renault might be around 55%, in LFS some WR sets have up to 70% + locked diff).

A while ago I posted some thoughts (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=441421#post441421) on the issue but no one replied. :shrug:

[Shotglass]

i dont think they actually need it per se
id say its either that engine braking has too much of an effect or more likely we can abuse the engines too much by downshifting rapidly to help with trailbraking

i suppose a real engine would give up in a cloud of smoke after 2 corners of lfs downshifting

[Heph]

Thx, I found a short clip here. (http://www.carlimits.com/shop/product.php?p=27) . Looks interesting, would you say it's worth ordering even if you don't a real car to apply the techniques yourself?

Is this DVD worth ordering? If your aim is to decrease your LFS time then No!! That is unless you have a G25 and drive like in a real car: Heel and Toe, LFB ...
Now if you want to learn about driving techniques and cars physics then yes it's worth it. Steering / braking technics are rather basic but Traction circle and slip angles are less commun. There's also laps done with the different technics with hand and feets filmed. The only complain I have about this DVD is that it might have been longer...

There's also books out there that are full of infos but keep in mind all those technics are for real world driving. IMHO, LFS is as close as it gets but there's still a lot of difference.

BTW, thanks for the video editing tips :smileypul

[Heph]

This brings up a question that IMO hasn't been considered enough: Why do LFS cars need so much forward brake bias and so much diff coast locking? (A typical brake balance value for a Formula Renault might be around 55%, in LFS some WR sets have up to 70% + locked diff).


I wouldn't compare brake Bias from a real car to the one in LFS.
In LFS, brake bias refers to the ratio off braking force applied to front wheels compared to the rear.
On a race car / sport car, brake bias reffers to the ratio of pressure that goes to the rear calipers compared to the front. But the calipers and discs (size) may be different!!!

As an exemple, the Lotus Elise don't have any brake bias so the same pressure goes to the front calipers and to the rears. Discs are the same but calipers are different: 2 pistons front, 1 piston rear. Even the brake pads are different in shape.

[tristancliffe]

In a proper racing car (with adjustable bias via twin master cylinders), the pedal force is biased, so the front and rear will have different line pressures. The front and rear brakes (radius, number & size of pistons, pad surface area, materials etc) will likely also be different as well.

I don't know quite how LFS does the bias - whether it's pedal effort split, line pressure bias, or brake torque bias. I suspect the latter (which is what Heph suggested), and so I agree that the LFS bias might not be comparible to real life bias figures.

[J.B.]

i dont think they actually need it per se
id say its either that engine braking has too much of an effect or more likely we can abuse the engines too much by downshifting rapidly to help with trailbraking

i suppose a real engine would give up in a cloud of smoke after 2 corners of lfs downshifting

Hmm, gave it a thought. So by doing the fast and early LFS-machine-gun-downshifting the brake balance is shifted towards the rear and then after that, when the car is actually turning into the corner, the balance goes back to the front. In reality I think you'd want the opposite. More towards the front initially because of the higher downforce and then back to help the car turn in.

I still feel that the LFS typical diff and brake settings are a workaround to a physics problem although I don't know exactly what. The cars just seem too tail happy on turn in without these tweaks.

Heph and tristan:
Yeah, I'm not 100% positive about the details of the value I mentioned earlier. But I had a look at some RAF data for the FOX and the normal tyre loads under braking are around 65-66%. If you add in tyre load sensitivity the optimal braking balance would be a bit further back than that.

Anyway, I'd still be interested in some comments about my self proclaimed "realistic" setups. For me personally they feel a lot more natural than typical LFS sets. The one attached was good enough for pole and win in OWRL Div B2 with about 20 min practice but I'd love to know what's possible in the hands of a WR driver. Or what someone with RL experience like tristan thinks about the handling.

[Shotglass]

Hmm, gave it a thought. So by doing the fast and early LFS-machine-gun-downshifting the brake balance is shifted towards the rear and then after that, when the car is actually turning into the corner, the balance goes back to the front. In reality I think you'd want the opposite. More towards the front initially because of the higher downforce and then back to help the car turn in.

i dont think you quite got my idea
the corner entry technique you find in lfs usually involves shifting down rapidly followed by a very short trailbrake and a bit with the car coasting torwards the apex

so the result is that you have the high reving engine normalizing the brake torque during the straight part of braking following that the driver "slowly" takes his foot off the brakes shifting the balances further back progressively
the last bit of the entry is a section where the car coasts to the apex ie only the driven wheels are slowing the car down

[J.B.]

I still don't get it. Why do say the brake balance gets shifted backwards while the driver gets off the brakes? The decreasing brake pressure shouldn't change the brake balance.

EDIT: I guess you mean that the total normal force balance moves towards the rear. True, but doesn't that support my claim that LFS cars are too loose on turn-in?

[Shotglass]

it probably does
however since the idea here is that youre basically entering the corner with the handbrake pulled ... shouldnt the cars be tail happy ?

[J.B.]

Yeah, using the brakes to make the car tail happy (to help turn in) is how I understand the concept of trail braking. In LFS however the brakes are used to stop the tail hapiness. It's most obvious in the MRT, just try driving it with an open diff. You'll see that you can turn in at a much higher speed if you trail brake. If you don't trail brake you just spin.

[Shotglass]

the mrt is a bad example since it has all the traits to create a massive weight shift at turn in which will lead to problems with engine braking on an open diff

i honestly dont know if the engines braking effect is overdone in lfs so that it might exaggerate the behaviour but from what little i know about car dynamics i would expect a car like the mrt to be very hard to turn into a corner safely with an open diff (at the limit of traction obviously)

[J.B.]

Not quite sure about that. An F1 brakes at 5 G but isn't five times as long as an MRT so weight transfer would also be a big factor there. But that does ignore other factors of course.

Anyway maybe I'll try driving all cars for a bit with open diffs and without trail braking to see if I can get a better understanding of my "too tail happy turn in" feeling. Someday :)

[Shotglass]

actaully i meant lateral weight shifts which i suppose should be a significant factorn on a car with very narrow track and very sticky tyres

unloading a wheel under engine braking with an open diff usually isnt a good idea
my guess is if you give it just the tiniest bit of throttle the tail happyness will disappear

[gishuk]

i find it quite easy to catch the back end in the FOX and im crap so you should be fine after a lil bit of practice.

the big GTRs on the other hand..... :(

[Crommi]

i find it quite easy to catch the back end in the FOX and im crap so you should be fine after a lil bit of practice.

the big GTRs on the other hand..... :(

I guess it comes down to a preference but for me FZR and XRR are alot more forgiving than FOX. With FOX the steering corrections have to be really quick and exactly the right amount, especially the moment when you return the steering wheel to center position.

With FOX the steering movement is like "snap--hold--snap" where in GTRs I can much more easily stay in control of the slide with small steering adjustments and as in FZR's case, quickly end it with fast steering movement to opposite direction.

[ajp71]

A typical brake balance value for a Formula Renault might be around 55%, in LFS some WR sets have up to 70% + locked diff


Whilst there may be difficulties comparing LFS to real life, including the fact that real world brake bias adjustments do not give an easily measurable ratio, typical brake bias values people reckon they're running seem to range from 70-85% in F4, admittedly it's not precise but I'd of thought the LFS figures are far closer to the real life figures than what you suggested. It should also be noted that you'd expect LFS figures to be lower because a lot of real life drivers would rather have a bit too much front bias than end up with a locked up rear end.

[Stang70Fastback]

I guess it comes down to a preference but for me FZR and XRR are alot more forgiving than FOX. With FOX the steering corrections have to be really quick and exactly the right amount, especially the moment when you return the steering wheel to center position.

With FOX the steering movement is like "snap--hold--snap" where in GTRs I can much more easily stay in control of the slide with small steering adjustments and as in FZR's case, quickly end it with fast steering movement to opposite direction.

Agreed. The FZR is a heavier vehicle, so once you've corrected for the slide, the vehicle doesn't snap back into place like the FOX does. That's the part that I've noticed EVERY SINGLE person have trouble with who asks to try out the game. They are WAAAY to late in returning the wheel after correcting for a slide.
In the FZR though, you can still save the car if it rotates past the center-mark. The FOX on the other hand - it's a general rule that once you've over corrected - you're screwed. Unless you are really skilled, in which case you rarely ever get into that scenario :shrug: