LFS too "sanitized"?

[danowat]

I have been playing RACE07 for a little since it was released, and one of the major things I can see is the way RACE displays the "roughness" of racing, the cars moves, the tracks have bumps and lumps and the whole things just feels a lot more raw and visceral.

Going back to LFS (as much as I love it) just feels very clinical and sanitised, which in turn makes it feel a bit "gamey".

Am I alone in this?, anyone else think that LFS could do with a bit of "roughening up"?

LFS will always be my primary sim, but there are many area's that could do with improving :nod: :D

[dude56]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think a lot of it has to do with sounds.

[danowat]

It's not the sounds, it's just the way the car moves, the roughness and rawness of it all, it's very hard to describe, but there is certainly something missing.

[spankmeyer]

Some technical reasons for the sterility: Sound engine produces very few ambient noises and sound effects, small and few textures track textures, dynamic alpha layers are missing (like dirt and scratches on models).

[LRB_Aly]

Yeah it could be a bit bumpier here and there. That's also why I'm playing the 1979 F1 mod on R-Factor now and then, it literally bumps your eyes out of the head.

[Tweaker]

Don't be fooled by the cockpit vibrations.... if that is what you are talking about here....

All recent ISI based games have those vibrations, even if the track isn't bumpy. Because externally, their cars look just as rigid as LFS cars when it comes to bumps & suspension play.

Then again, LFS tracks ARE too smooth mostly, and about the only tracks I like are South City and Fern Bay specifically because they are bumpy in certain areas. All the other tracks feel far too smooth. And in reality, even what looks like a smooth track, many drivers discuss the bumpiness of the track. There just needs to be better tracks for tight racing with touring cars and such. Much of the desire to have bumpier tracks is due to the very large and wide boring S2 tracks made for the bigger cars. We really need better tracks for slower racing cars.

[danowat]

It is probably a canned effect in ISI games, but it's a nice effect, and certainly adds to the imperssion.

[axus]

Dan, if you struggle with immersion in LFS, drive in cockpit view (custom if you need), with real dials, analogue speedo (makes it harder to see so you don't look at it in corners) and the HUD disabled. If you want to check your split times in a race, have a shift+F button on the wheel to hide/show the HUD.

And, hasn't Scawen mentioned somewhere that he would like to add track bumpiness to LFS, at some point?

[danowat]

Already do all that mate :)

[thisnameistaken]

I haven't played RACE 07, but in last year's RACE I found a lot of those effects quite distracting. In particular I remember there being a very exaggerated bouncing effect in some places (going through Curva Grande at Monza for example) that just seems weird - more like a constant oscillation than driving on a bumpy surface.

I agree that LFS feels too clean though. The cars don't "feel" mechanical enough somehow.

[halo]

I believe that we will have those kind of bumpy tracks,
more realistic sounds etc. when devs think its time to.
I agree Danowat, yes LFS has a little sanitized environment compared to other sims.

[StewartFisher]

I've spent a fair bit of time on rFactor recently (mainly on the W196 and GP79 v2.0 mods) and I do feel that LFS lacks some immersion when I return to it.

I think it's almost all to do with the sounds. Driving in rFactor you hear the creaks and squeaks of the chassis and suspension as you hit bumps, whereas in LFS you hear the engine and the tyres and...well...that's it!

The FF in rF seems irreparably broken when it comes to bumps. Even with RealFeel enabled my wheel shakes around all over the place in response to bumps :shrug:

However, I'm confident that this will eventually be fixed in LFS :)

[Blackout]

Well...being a idiot I bought Race 07 and the whole game just feels awful, plain awful. I don't actually know what is it, but I guess it's the fact that FFB doesn't tell what the front wheels are doing, and it shakes a lot.

Few details also bother me a lot, like the fact that many cars seem to miss shift lights, and the helmet view I can't mod because Steam is evil.

On the plus side, it wasn't that expensive because the US dollar is weak.

[danowat]

Lets no get into the whole, this is better than that sim..........

FYI, you can mod the helmet view with the steam version, just drop the dds file in your race07 folder.

[Blackout]

Lets no get into the whole, this is better than that sim..........

FYI, you can mod the helmet view with the steam version, just drop the dds file in your race07 folder.

Well, you sort of went into it saying LFS doesn't do something. I'm not here to make war though, but I don't feel Race 07 shakes are that special.

Thanks for the tip though, couldn't find any information about it..and was too afraid to ask from RSC. :P

[danowat]

I am not saying RACE is better, now way jose, I am just saying that LFS could do with "its waters muddying" if you get my drift, it's too clinical, too sanitized and that leads to it being a bit gamey.

I am going to try and find some video clips, and try and do a comparison with RL and LFS to try and highlight what I am getting at.

[z3r0c00l]

The cleanliness needs to be lost by means of the same subsumption architecture the rest of LFS depends on. The effects and realisms are a product of the interaction between lots of lower level simulations.

The Racing line on the track at the corners comes from the tyres slipping the most there, eventually, scratches on the cars, oil stains on the track, creaks in the suspension will all be a product of the simulation, not a design feature.

eg.

engine failure due to engine model detecting over-heated engine and excessive mechanical forces from flat shifting, oil on the track due to track condition simulation in localised area, stain on the track due to track condition simulator rendering, fox spinning backwards into wall and bursting into flames as a result of traction loss when grip calculated from track condition simulation and tyre simulation interacting, collision detection physics crumple the crap out of the fox, which catches fire, because the petrol tank detect more crumpling that it could reasonably sustain while still holding liquid.

Sum all of the above, and you get s3, but you don't have to program "spinning out" you program aspects of grip, momentum etc. and spinning out on oil just happens.

The same goes for the bumpy track. When we have rain, the bumps will determine where the rain settles on the track, which bits are slippier than others, driving on the track in middle-wet conditions will dry it steadily etc. However, they can't code the bumps into the track without knowing how they're going to code the track conditions (wet road, oily road etc) simulation, because they will have to interact so heavily with it.

[danowat]

I see what you are saying, but you are missing my point, I am talking about the driving "feel"

[z3r0c00l]

put your monitor in the washing machine and sit on the tumble drier, fire them both up and lfs too, it'll feel just like the karusel.

[Crashgate3]

I find the opposite. LFS feels so much nicer to drive. Playing rFactor I often find the car impossible to control because of all the bumping about seemingly because of the car going over the sharp edges of the track polys, rather than actual 'bumps'. A good example of this is the carousel at Nordschleife. It should be a nice, smooth constant radius turn, but a lot of the cars bounce right out of the banked part.

I've been having a go at making rFactor tracks and the 'bumps' you can add are simply a surface that makes the car osscilate up and down at a certain wavelength and amplitude, cetainly not random bumping as you'd get on a real track.

[z3r0c00l]

It might be constant radius, but it certainly is not smooth, even with a car with cheap immitation fruit pastels for suspension its very bumpy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbv0pshFW5Q

[danowat]

It's so bumpy, I went on it once on the bike, then every other lap, I decided to go round the smooth(er) top bit :)

[al heeley]

I know what you mean too about the 'smoothness'. I find NKP excels in the 'feel' and some of it is the FF, some is also the sound feedback, but after a ahlf hour driving NKP hard, LFS does feel arcady-smooth.:x

[nihil]

I know this will freak people out, so I'll probably have to pad the post out with lots of appeasing justifications, but.....

I had a quick go at TOCA with a DFP the other weekend (TVR on Oulton Park). Now bearing in mind that I have only ever once before driven with a force feedback wheel, the over-riding impression was that (here's the appeasing bit...) the car's handling came from never-never land (ok, that's over with, no "but LFS is a sim" type responses please....), but the feel from the track gave a fairly convincing impression of weight reacting with a surface.

My only experience of driving LFS with force feedback was a little disappointing (FXO GTR on Fern Bay, and XRG on South City). I could feel the tyres resistance as they turned against the road, but there was very little sense that the road was anything more than a unitary, conceptual surface. Even on South City, there were a few, individual, moments that signposted themselves as 'a bump', but still the road surface seemed to have nothing in the way of a granular, moment-by-moment, identity.

....the carousel at Nordschleife. It should be a nice, smooth constant radius turn...


Let me add to the bewilderment at that statement... Actually, in RL, its a scary, white knuckle moment, that you survive with an equal measure of luck and speed-sapping fear... :)

[al heeley]

Would be interesting to find out how much influence the FF settings have on this perception of handling.

[danowat]

The only analogy I can liken it too is the dolby switch on an old tape deck.

Race is with the switch off, rough, raw, "scratchy", LFS has the dolby setting on, artificially smoothened.

[Racer556]

It's not the sounds, it's just the way the car moves, the roughness and rawness of it all, it's very hard to describe, but there is certainly something missing.

You're just right in there! (first post since 2 years!) I was thinking about that while watching touring on youtube... look at the entries, the brake points... you actually see the car nosing to the front. When truning you see the carr fighting with it.

ok, now what's lacking lfs... it needs a bit of physics update for the "more realistic" movement of the car, recorded sounds for the things that are NOT dynamic (c'mon, you can't belive LFS will SIMULATE the sound for the suspension/road/chasis) the realtime produced sounds for the engine is perfectly well indeed. and ofcourse work out the "lag bugs" so we can get some contact between each other (without becoming a flying ricochet with four wheels XD)

PD: 2 years and 10 and a half months xD

[DeadWolfBones]

I haven't played RACE 07, but in last year's RACE I found a lot of those effects quite distracting. In particular I remember there being a very exaggerated bouncing effect in some places (going through Curva Grande at Monza for example) that just seems weird - more like a constant oscillation than driving on a bumpy surface.

I agree that LFS feels too clean though. The cars don't "feel" mechanical enough somehow.

This is my feeling as well. I hate the artifical griminess of the ISI sims (pebbles hitting the wheelwells all the time is pretty ridiculous), but LFS is a bit too placid at times.

I'm sure Scawen has some brilliant solution in mind, though.

[Electrik Kar]

I don't drive w/ FF, but I can understand that sense of smoothness as well. Especially after coming off GTR2, everything in LFS is smoother- not really for better or worse, just different I suppose. LFS can get pretty hairy and bumpy though- anyone remember the MRT?

I'd love to see a bit more variation in the track surfaces in LFS. In fact I hope that becomes a top priority sooner rather than later. Out of all improvements I can think of, more detailed track surfaces would probably top my list. Detailed, as in 'next generation' - an innovative approach. Couple that with some better sounds, and... :yummy:

[Crashgate3]

OK, I retract my statement about the carousel. :D

That was a bad example. There are parts on a lot of rFcator tracks however where the car will throw itself off the track because of some of the bumps, even when you're going in a straight line.

[micha1980de]

It's not the sounds, it's just the way the car moves, the roughness and rawness of it all, it's very hard to describe, but there is certainly something missing.

i assume you're missing the "contact" to other cars the little bumps and close racing in generall, the small pieces of gravel in the wheel housing, the dirt on your windshield the blue smoke from all these engines revving... etc.
i'm missing that certain something too, but hey we'll get it.
It's just a matter of time.:schwitz:

regards

[Gnomie]

Well...being a idiot I bought Race 07 and the whole game just feels awful, plain awful. I don't actually know what is it, but I guess it's the fact that FFB doesn't tell what the front wheels are doing, and it shakes a lot.
I haven't played Race07, but THE thing I like the most about LFS is the excellent return-to-centre thing which lets your steering wheel tell you where the front wheels are pointing at any given time, especially when you drift. Feels very good.

[ajp71]

I really hate the vibrations most rF tracks produce, which are just consistent bumps everywhere on the track AFAIK. I would, however, love some proper bumps to be modelled, as in modelling individual bumps that actually make a difference to the experience of the track rather than just shaking everything. LFS already has some at Fern Bay and South City but the other tracks could do with some more really.

[BlueFlame]

I know what you mean Dan, LFS is a 'soft' game. As shit as other games are, the raw 'ear splitting, head acheing rawness' isn't here. I can understand the road cars feeling reletively soft, but the GTR's and Formula's aren't as hard as they should be... And please, don't try to correct me, I am NOT talking about handling. Purely Atmospheric :tilt:

[STROBE]

Have to agree about the S2 tracks being too smooth and artificial. Yes, they're wider for a reason (to accomodate larger, faster cars) but that doesn't mean they have to have the surface of a billiard table. Westhill, for example, you'd expect to be quite bumpy since it appears as a generally low budget, undeveloped track (unlike Aston, with grandstands and kerbs and configs galore).

Speaking of Aston, it'd be nice to feel the difference in the surface when using (for example) the modern GP config, compared to bits of the old Historic config that aren't part of GP and would be an older, more pitted, weathered, frost-bitten surface.

[BlueFlame]

I enjoy the in-depth analysis' of the Track's and cars, especially what Strobe said about Westhill being a low budget track e.t.c. If you could pair Westhill with a real life track - try and pair with an english track first. What would you pair it with?

[danowat]

Thruxton

[Shotglass]

Don't be fooled by the cockpit vibrations.... if that is what you are talking about here....

All recent ISI based games have those vibrations, even if the track isn't bumpy. Because externally, their cars look just as rigid as LFS cars when it comes to bumps & suspension play.

its an effect you can set in the player files ... one of the first things i switch off in any isi sim


i fully agree that lfs' tracks are too smooth but isi artificial virbations everywhere are not the way to go

btw dan if youd like to see more bumps dial the z gforce movement down to 0

[danowat]

I'll have a fiddle with the G force settings, see if I can improve on what I already have

[Bob Smith]

My only experience of driving LFS with force feedback was a little disappointing (FXO GTR on Fern Bay, and XRG on South City). I could feel the tyres resistance as they turned against the road, but there was very little sense that the road was anything more than a unitary, conceptual surface. Even on South City, there were a few, individual, moments that signposted themselves as 'a bump', but still the road surface seemed to have nothing in the way of a granular, moment-by-moment, identity.
The wheels at the race centre had some issues:
* They were momos
* They were seriously well used and worn (despite regular replacement)
* They weren't optimally setup for LFS (rather for GPL)

As soon as I got home I shaved 2 seconds off my laptimes, it was lovelly and frustrating all at the same time. :D

I think it's almost all to do with the sounds. Driving in rFactor you hear the creaks and squeaks of the chassis and suspension as you hit bumps, whereas in LFS you hear the engine and the tyres and...well...that's it!
And wind, don't forget wind!

[mrodgers]

I don't have experience with anything prior to LFS except with NR2003 (read as I went from NR2003 straight to LFS and stayed). Here's my 2 cents.....

Aston National for example use - after the 2nd split, as you pull out of the right hand hairpin, there is a huge bump there. You can feel it in the car, see it in the car, as well as it can (slightly) mess you up. It is especially noticeable in reverse configuration as that is part of a braking zone coming in.

South City Long - After the double apex and chicane, the left hander heading down the hill, at the bottom of the hill, and the left hander before entering up the overpass just before the 2nd split. You can really feel, see, and be messed up by the bumps there.

These are really the only 2 places that I can think of that has any sort of bump to them that affects you in any way. You guys state LFS as being smooth as silk, and for handling, yes it is. But visually, even at Westhill, I can see the tracks are very bumpy as the car shakes around quite a bit visually. The problem is, you can't feel them and they have no affect on your car.

LFS needs more areas/corners like the spots I mention there at Aston and South City. Fern Bay keeps coming up here, and I'm trying to think of anywhere on that track that is bumpy. I can think of no areas. The only time I can think of hitting bumps at Fern Bay is if you use the curbs. Same with Kyoto. And like I said, Westhill I can see bumpiness visually, but there is no feeling of bumpiness at all.

Added: Yes, artificial vibration is definitely not the way to do it (going along with what Shotglass stated). But the bumps that I mention at Aston and South City, you do feel in the steering wheel as the weight of the car will lift slightly, giving you a change in the feedback from the steering wheel. A steering wheel does not vibrate because of bumps. But the Aston and SO bumps are quite realistic to what you would feel in the wheel if you hit them in a real car.

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a stupid, fat, lazy, can't drive, can't spell, war loving, humorless, can't understand sarcasm American :D Just had to put that in there, hehehe :D

[Bob Smith]

There is (or at least it was more noticeable in 0.3) plenty of bumps in SO Long coming down to break for the really tight corner, and also one at the top of that hill. Totally agreed LFS tracks are still too smooth, though.

[sinbad]

For the most part I agree, particularly that surfaces are too smooth, lacking both low and high frequency bumps. I also think engines still lack character, which contributes. Not just sound, but the way they idle, the way they rev up and down, the way they respond to throttle, not to mention the way they start :). Too perfect, too smooth, almost too turbine-like maybe. Just my 2 cents.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

100% Agree Dan. LFS is more an excercise in maths than visceral experience sometimes, but it sure does drive well.

But Shot, what in the world are you talking about? Last time you brought up the zero movement / G force, I thought you were berserk, but I went and tried it - and it just made it worse! Even the bump you mentioned in Blackwood (I think it was) is an order of magnitude more noticable with head movement enabled!

[Shotglass]

But Shot, what in the world are you talking about? Last time you brought up the zero movement / G force, I thought you were berserk, but I went and tried it - and it just made it worse! Even the bump you mentioned in Blackwood (I think it was) is an order of magnitude more noticable with head movement enabled!

i find that the damping on the gforce moevements tends to smooth those bumps a lot
maybe the cockpit isnt shaking anymore with all sliders down to 0 but thats not what youre looking at or at least it shouldnt be
at least with a stiff chassis like the fo8 or the bf1 i do see the bumps a whole lot better with no head movements

might be a monitor response time thing

[Racer X NZ]

My 2 cents worth.

LFS tracks are WAY too smooth with perfect tarmac and very few bumps or ripples.
SO is the best but still needs a lot of work IMO.

My real world experience ( Bikes, Sidecar swinging, Karting, and car track days) at 3 NZ circuits is that tracks change grip, tracks tend to ripple ( especially after trucks have been there ! ) and there can be huge differences in grip as only sections of track are resealed at a time.

Also for SO I think that there should be the standard road markings ( white lines, giveway etc ) and as these are always done with a plastic paint the change of grip for this as well as manholes will make the surface more realistic.

I'd love to see a lot more work on the tracks but this is not a complaint, LFS with FF on max still feels better than any other sim I've used but as with anything there's always room for improvement.

[Zachary Zoomy]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think a lot of it has to do with sounds.

I've always liked racer for the way it sounds. in LFS the FZ50 doesn't sound like a flat 6. LFS sound have always sounded "cheap" no offence please! while in racer, a 911 sounds like a propor flat 6.
I don't drive racer very much becuase the game has millions of bugs etc, but the sounds have always bugged me in LFS.

[dawesdust_12]

Zachary, the Racer sounds would sound "right" because they are direct clips from the car, so while they are realistic, they give the feedback of sticking your wang in a toilet paper roll.


I don't accept responsibility for awkward situations arising from my post, such as conversations involving mothers, fathers, wangs, toilet paper rolls, condoms, or any other derived conversations from forewarned items.

:p

[Zachary Zoomy]

yes, very true.

[MAGGOT]

..the Racer sounds would sound "right" because they are direct clips from the car, so while they are realistic, they give the feedback of sticking your wang in a toilet paper roll.

:ices_rofl

[Hankstar]

Zachary, the Racer sounds would sound "right" because they are direct clips from the car, so while they are realistic, they give the feedback of sticking your wang in a toilet paper roll.Whatever floats your boat Dusty, I aint gonna judge you :thumb:


GODDAM SICKO.

[dawesdust_12]

Better not judge me, or I'll start scrubbing the LFS tracks so much, they will be smoother than... ... ... Jakgs legs.

:P

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

And here the other night he was bragging about women? I didn't think he meant cardboard ones.... I guess that's just efficient recycling for toilet paper rolls? :scratchch

And the FZ5 sounds precisely like a flat six, at least fundamentally. Drive it properly like a real car with DAVEWS sound and anyone could identify it as a flat six within 3 seconds. LFSs engines all sound the best at low/med revs unfortunately. Which makes me think it's largely the mechanical clatter at high RPMs that distinguish RL sounds.

[dawesdust_12]

Hey, If she ain't recyclable, she ain't do-able?

You all are sicko's

[JeffR]

tracks too smoothThis is a compromise to allow high downforce cars like the BMW F1 to run. My guess is this is the reason Blackwood was smoothed out. If the tracks were bumpy, it would tear F1 cars apart.

Race 07 cheap ... In the USA, Race 07 is $20 (USA) at EBGames online. GTR2/GTLegends are offered together, also for $20 USA at the local stores. On the other hand, Need For Speed Carbon Collector's Edition was initially selling for $35 to $40 in the USA. Racing sims aren't popular in the USA so they're cheaper here.

Race 07 is supposed to be a "WTCC" game, so it doesn't have a lot of variety of cars. Open wheel cars are Formula 3000 and Formula BMW (relatively slow, not F1 cars). Obviously there are WTCC type cars plus, the Radical SR3+SR4, and Caterhams, which are quite good in the game, at 200, 260, and 320hp (in real life there is a 330 prototype), as it's captured the go-kart like driving style (they drift) fairly well.

The dashes in the cars are plain and once the helmet is removed (see below), the dashes in the open wheel cars are very plain. For the F3000, the animated shifting should have been skippped or used paddle shifters, since it's about 1/2 second behind the actual shift, which looks silly, but you can see the glow of the disk brakes from the cockpit view which makes up for some of this.

Bottom line for me, it was definately worth the $20. I made a video of a f3000, so those that don't have the game can get an idea of what it's like:

r07bhf31.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/r07/r07bhf31.wmv)

update - since I mentioned caterhams, added a video with one:

r07obc3.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/r07/r07obc3.wmv)

Helmet view I can't mod.Fixes available at RSC for this, although you still get annoying bug splats.

clear helmet thread (http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=300515)

no helmet thread (http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=299798)

If you don't like the Euro Sport logo on your replays, go here:

Program Files\RACE 07 Offline\UiData\Menu\Textures

and rename or delete MenuArt_EurosportLogo.tga

[GFresh]

Fixes available at RSC for this, although you still get annoying bug splats.



Bug splats!? Thats sooo NFS2 :razz:

[Hallen]

Are we talking about bumps in the track or are we talking about that annoying thing that rFactor does where the whole dash bucks up in the air when you hit a bump? I mean, it looks like the whole car is made up of separate parts and the steering rack is made of rubber. It is silly. Real cars don't look like that when they go over bumps.

Your eyes don't work like that either. If you have your eye on a spot in front of you, they will track that spot no matter what bangs and vibrations are happening. Your eyes do not work like a helmet cam.

Until you get a full motion setup, it will just look silly if you try and do things like rFactor does. I have to turn all that stuff off to drive rFactor. It is too distracting otherwise.

I don't think that the tracks in LFS are too smooth. Race tracks in general are smooth, at least ones that get any kind of regular maintenance. They are much, much smoother than real roads. I think South City has plenty of bumps in it they way it is. Aston has bumps. You can feel them and they will upset the car if you hit them wrong. It makes braking difficult in certain places.

I guess I just don't see the problem.:shrug:

[danowat]

Not so much bumps in tracks, but the way the cars react, they just seem too smooth, maybe it is the tracks, maybe its the smoothness of the cars, maybe its a bit of both, but LFS needs some more "rawness"

[dawesdust_12]

I find it so distracting, in LFS, I even turn off G Forces.

[harjun]

many little little things, sounds, yes, few bumps on the tracks, like on South City, thats why i like it, because then like, the skill comes in ;)

[Nathan_French_14]

...thats why i like it, because then like, the skill comes in ;)

No wonder i never see you on souty city :tilt:

I completely agree with you dan, LFS feels waaay to soft. Definetely needs to feel more hardcore.

P.S, i have RACE07 too dan, we should race online when i get my wheel back ;)

[Chaos]

Then again, LFS tracks ARE too smooth mostly, and about the only tracks I like are South City and Fern Bay specifically because they are bumpy in certain areas. All the other tracks feel far too smooth.
I disagree here... Kyoto, Westhil and Aston are pretty bumpy too... you just don't notice this when sitting in your chair... Try those tracks in the FD301 and you will be surprised how bumpy they are in certain areas...

[Electrik Kar]

LFS is more an excercise in maths than visceral experience sometimes

Agree. Very concise statement which has also been rattling around in my head for some time- I'm sure much of it's to do with LFS being in alpha. But you're right- LFS is a bit too clinical/cool/mathematical in its general feeling. I guess that's why true simmers love it. The 'wow' factor in LFS is really only coming from the physics- and not really from anywhere else.

In a way, that's fine. When I play LFS, after awhile I start to feel like a very analytical and serious number crunching robot operator who's sole purpose is to find ways to shave 10ths off laps. When I play GTR2, I find I'm enjoying the more 'visceral' experience of racing against other cars- being surrounded by exploding and churning engines, the sense of being inside some mechanical thing.

But I'm never as focused as when I'm on LFS. I don't really take racing as seriously. I'm just going round a track, winning or losing, taking it all in. With LFS, you can come away exhausted from concentrating too much- and when that pays off, there's a much better feeling. So, I guess LFS can feel sanitised, but also, it's an intense experience as well.

[danowat]

Good post, totally agree :)

[imthebestracerthereis]

You sometimes get the feeling of "rough" if you try rallycross tracks, I do think its too smooth :/ too bad noone likes rallycross anymore :hide:

[Chrisuu01]

I have to agree ive played demo byt my dads place

and it feels difrent it feels rough and hardcore but that was in my pre DFP era

Does a DFP give a Difrent feeling than other none 900 degree wheels??

If it cames to Race07

[col]

I think that part of the 'problem' with bumps in LFS is that the physics engine puts some limitations on what contours the bumps can have.
Think about what happens when your car hits a curb with a hard edge - think SO1 pit in-road - it's a lottery whether you are launched into the stratosphere.
Basically, the bumps cannot have hard/sharp edges. They are really smooth sinusoidal undulations, so for them to be noticeable, they have to be quite large - like the ones exiting the SO1 chicane. If bumps could have harder edges, then there could be small bumps that would still be noticeable e.g. a 'lip' at the edge of some fresh tarmac...

I'm not sure how easy this would be for Scawen to implement - it really depends on how his tyre model works, the granularity of the track model, the frequency of the physics updates, (probably most importantly) the complexity of the filter used to smooth the impact of poly edges on the tyres.

It would be great to see improvements in this area.

Another thing that might make an difference to the reaction of the cars to inconsistencies in the track surface is chassis flex. This has been discussed a lot in the past, and Scawen seem to be very interested in including chassis flex modeling, so I think we will see it at some point.

Col

[nihil]

As soon as I got home I shaved 2 seconds off my laptimes, it was lovelly and frustrating all at the same time. :D


And wind, don't forget wind!

Wind? Well, I'll take it on trust your improved times weren't due to the beer and the curry....

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

perfect post

:thumb::nod:
Very well said.

You sometimes get the feeling of "rough" if you try rallycross tracks :hide:

This is true actually. I do really notice the sensation of being roughed around; air time feels far more like air time than other sims, and when I hit the ground I find myself cringing sometimes.

[Hallen]

Not so much bumps in tracks, but the way the cars react, they just seem too smooth, maybe it is the tracks, maybe its the smoothness of the cars, maybe its a bit of both, but LFS needs some more "rawness"

I think the cars react perfectly. If you really had your butt in the car instead of sitting on your stable apartment floor, you would then notice all the bumps.

Until the point where all of us can afford some kind of motion seat, you just won't feel it and will think the cars aren't moving enough.

The only fix for this is to exaggerate the bumps, like rFactor does, and make the sim more unrealistic.

Personally, I think that if you really use your eyes and really immerse yourself you will see the bumps, and you will almost feel them. BBT said it, he cringes waiting for the car to hit after getting air. That is because the reaction of the car is believable which makes you anticipate actual physical impact... which of course never comes because you are not physically there.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

The more I think about it, I'm starting to see that you're totally right Eric. I think playing other things mentally corrupts the truth. It's about "recreating the sensation" vs recreating something close to reality, and without physical feedback it's blurry. I remember seeing/reading about using the Force Dyanmics, and man, LFS seemed violent just watching the FD move around. Bumps galore in places I had no idea about etc.

And with regard to the attitude of this board - at least for me personally, I have no issue with people playing other sims, and I don't think anyone here does really. The issue comes when a fan of other sims starts saying that the physics in LFS are off, which compared to anything on the market yet is pure & utter BS. Usually folks come here saying "how it should be" and that's when backs go up. Could certain things be better? Sure. (lots of things could...:hide:) But for vehicle dynamics nothing currently beats LFS.

[Shotglass]

air time feels far more like air time than other sims

i think it was tristan who posted about how the cars in lfs at least fly in a believable way after some of the more silly collision detection glitches about a year ago

sometime this year i saw a video about wreckers in gtr2 on youtube (im pretty sure its this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lna-uFBdxog at 0:26 ... 0:12 is fishy as well) which had an interesting bit where the car got air time and the cars flow stayed perfectly parallel with the ground for the entire flight
its quite embarassing to see how some sims handle rigid bodies aka the most basic thing in physics

[Gil07]

How about this one? :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCrzA3IAEXs

[mrodgers]

How about this one? :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCrzA3IAEXs
Bah! I was just about to post that...

Love how the one car jumps up, over, then bounces backwards when it lands, also staying parallel to the ground while flying through the air.

These videos really show how much better GTR2 is over LFS and makes me want to go right out and buy it as soon as I get off work...

(disclaimer: sarcasm there, for those who believe we don't understand sarcasm in the US.)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Mike, the disclaimer ruins it!

[mrodgers]

Mike, the disclaimer ruins it!
But then, no one would understand it as sarcasm coming from a "merican"...

[Jakg]

coming from a "merican"...Uh, is that like a Mexican? :dunce:

[AndroidXP]

LFS tracks not bumpy enough? Are you sure? I mean, just take a gentle stroll around Blackwood, switch to chase view and turn on the forces. You'll see quite a lot of rumbling in the load bars, so saying the tracks are smooth is definitely not true. I'd rather suspect the missing tyre impact noises and general lack of dedicated immersion enhancing things to be the reason for this phenomenon.

What I'm also not too sure of lately is the force feedback. I mean yeah it's great in its core due to being absolutely true to the physics and not containing anything faked or artificial, but sometimes it seems that fine details or even rough details that should be feelable simply aren't. Is it a weird FF coding issue that drains or filters out the "noise"? Are the spikes in FF from rough road or sometimes even rumblestrips simply too short and irregular to register for the FF or for the FF motors to react? Is it maybe a tyre physics issue that means all these irregularities simply aren't transferred to the steering column, either because maybe the flexing tyres are damping out too much, or maybe the self aligning torque is not handled correctly?

I don't know. IMO weight transfer and mechanical trail are portrayed perfectly, but the finesse, the fine detail seems to be missing sometimes. Then at other times you can be truly amazed at how well the tyre physics handle other things, like the difference in turn resistance when standing still between turning normally and turning with the brakes depressed. You can really feel the rubber flex and notice how the stress is relieved from the tyres once you step off the brakes and the wheels can finally turn/roll again.

:shrug:

[Shotglass]

Is it a weird FF coding issue that drains or filters out the "noise"?

a while ago someone working with usb devices posted something about lag induced by usb stacks and how the constant forces used by lfs have a somewhat slower path (dont really remember the details)
apparently spring force effects are a better method to make the wheel change forces quickly

additionally it could be amplified by some freak synching issues with the the wheel working at 100hz in lfs and 125hz at hardware level

[Hyperactive]

...

Aston has bumps. You can feel them and they will upset the car if you hit them wrong.

...

Aston has a bump. LFS has a lot very very small camber changes in corners but not really many bumps. The lack of those small bumps is imho not an issue, the issue is the total lack of elevation changes. Very few of the elevation changes in LFS have any effect on your driving. But that's not really related to the sanitated feel of LFS.

In a way LFS feels like watching a scifi movie with great plot, awful graphics and synth sounds. Not that the graphics in LFS are bad but if you have ever seen a movie where the the actors have been replaced by computer models you know what I mean. It looks and feel artificial and it doesn't really have any feelings.You still get the point of the movie, someof the main points and feeling translate very well but as a whole it is fake. When you watch a movie with real actors you notice all those small facial expressions and small vivid things that make it look believable.

In a way LFS feel better when the engine sound clips because that brings exactly the kind of living feeling into LFS it needs. That being said, the look and feel in LFS can only be touched and bettered by nk pro. Nk pro looks amazing, the sound is 1000x better than LFS' but sadly it doesn't work because it is buggy and has tonnes of small issue. LFS does work and doesn't have those small issues but it still an indie product and that defenately shows in many ways.

LFS defenately doesn't imho need a graphics makeover or any fudged kewl smokey-sparkly stuff. Sparks from ground collisions and dirt would be nice along with cars with a lot more small details though. The main thing would to improve the sounds along with graphical look, if this sanitated feel is something that is going to be improved.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I did notice a huge increase in how attached I felt to the sim when I upgraded to a G25... I also know that the steering geometry setup plays a huge role in what's felt and how strong. Some setups I can barely feel anything other than aligning torque, and some setups magnify things alot. I can still feel the train tracks at SOx when driving over them at 220K in the LX6 with most setups, so I don't think resolution or latency is really a big issue in the end. Some setups I can feel every single time I touch curbs, some setups I can't. Coming into a braking zone on the curbs rattle the heck out of the wheel with almost every setup, and for example the XFR at FEx has the wheel doing things constantly (FWD of course).

Edit: @ Hyper, but AXP is right - check the vertical loads on the tires in forces view, and you can see that there is a ton of variation in the surfaces which you really don't "experience" for some reason. I'm starting to see that the over tidy feeling of LFS is related to ambient things, not the road surface itself.

[JeffR]

i think it was tristan who posted about how the cars in lfs at least fly in a believable way after some of the more silly collision detection glitches about a year agoExample of silly collision detection in an old version of LFS (from back in 2004). It's a lot better now.

lfsbmpr.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/lfs/lfsbmpr.wmv)

How some sims handle rigid bodies aka the most basic thing in physicsWell the car model may be rigid, but it definately didn't stay parallel to the road in this case:

gtrspap.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/gtr/gtrspap.wmv)

The in air path didn't seem that much different than the real thing (driver was OK):

mercfly.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/mercfly.wmv)

[Hyperactive]

Edit: @ Hyper, but AXP is right - check the vertical loads on the tires in forces view, and you can see that there is a ton of variation in the surfaces which you really don't "experience" for some reason. I'm starting to see that the over tidy feeling of LFS is related to ambient things, not the road surface itself.

Tons of variation is a huge exaggaration :) Try it yourself. Westhill is smoother than butter, just like Aston or car park are. They are pretty much the same. Although the tire forces don't really show much else than the polygon edges. Maybe so tracks have more roughness but it might be the polygon edges agin, I guess... And to add the already mentioned fact that most of the "bumps" in LFS are as wide as the road...

I also found that there is a second bump on Aston :tilt:

[mrodgers]

Westhill is definitely not smooth. I had a poor setup for a league race at Westhill and the car was visually bouncing everywhere. Other than the Aston and SO bumps that you can feel in the reaction of the car and the steering, Westhill is probably the next bumpiest that I can see visually with my g-force slider settings that I don't see at tracks such as Fern Bay and Kyoto.

[Mazz4200]

a "merican"...

Uh, is that like a Mexican? :dunce:

No Jakg they're the exact opposite.

A Merry can, but a Mexi can't

[ajp71]

its quite embarassing to see how some sims handle rigid bodies aka the most basic thing in physics

It should be noted that that really weird behaviour is caused by lag and a system of position reporting rather than everybodies PC do the physics for all the cars. Whilst it is CPU intensive LFS just looks so much better for online play ;)

[geezer45]

I haven't read this whole thread so please don't flame me, but has the 'Acceleration shifts viewpoint' feature been mentioned here?

[Electrik Kar]

most of the "bumps" in LFS are as wide as the road...

Most tracks have a dds road texture file with 'bump' in the name. The width is the same as a normal road texture, which is half of the road.

[yoyoML]

I'd like to take RBR as an example. For me it is every bit as accurate a number crunching program as LFS, but carries that extra bit of roughness. Of course its roads are much rougher in nature... But even pure tarmac offers a very visceral experience there.

I find RBR's sound really makes it shine, especially the suspension sounds. You can hear very clearly the strong compressions or bottoming out. Also the collision sounds are excellent, as they recorded the sounds smashing up a real old car. Every collision sounds as it should. The transmission/gear change sounds give great impressions of metals banging metals. The turbo whine reminds you the brutal power, too. I remember the echo is properly modeled by using virtual/echoing walls of variable width.

The damage modeling is also top-notch. From experiences of damaging the car, you paint a mental picture about what to expect running into a tree. It is not there when normally driving, but you feel it.

The overall graphics is a lot more detailed. I think if LFS modeled individual curb bumps it'd look a lot more menacing. The shading across different surfaces also contributes to their, well, substance. LFS should probably start using shaders. Oh, and the dynamic reflections (that update every frame) helps with the sense of speed, which (the reflection) is absent in all of LFS and ISI sims and Papy sims...

I agree with what's said about tracks needing more bumps. Not only tracks, but also trackside surfaces. I'm not too worried though, as simulations always start very clean but get dirty as you simulate more and more things.

[z3r0c00l]

I've binned it off a road into woodland, I'd say RBR is about right. :) branches breaking glass makes a very distinctive sound.

[deggis]

Nk pro looks amazing, the sound is 1000x better than LFS' but sadly it doesn't work because it is buggy and has tonnes of small issue.
You can't be talking about the Scazzato/synthesized (aka "simulating how engine sounds through cheap onboard mic with horrible distorted wind noise") sound engine in nKp?

[Hyperactive]

You can't be talking about the Scazzato/synthesized (aka "simulating how engine sounds through cheap onboard mic with horrible distorted wind noise") sound engine in nKp?

Yes I am. It is a bit worn topic with LFS sounds but I think there is a lot that can be done to make the cars sound more real and better. Synth sounds in nk pro sound imho decent. LFS just doesn't. I just did few laps in nk pro and it was quite a refreshing experience. In many ways :)

[deggis]

Are you sure you aren't mixing it up with the crossfaded/sampled engine in nKp?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5MCc_6HoX5k

If that sounds better than LFS sound in your opinion, then I simply can't understand. Maybe the sound is not so smooth and sanitized like in LFS but that horrible distortion is definitely not making it more real either.

It amuses me how the synth engine in nKp produces so similar sound to onboard vids with cheap mics where the sound is completely distorted because of wind noise. Just compare it (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-W9jUrNSifo)...

The crossfaded/sampled engine in nKp is ok (altough sounds somehow like V12 diesel, it's a bit off regarding the engines in those formulas) but no point comparing that to LFS, everyone knows the difference in sampled and synthed sound.

[Hyperactive]

Are you sure you aren't mixing it up with the crossfaded/sampled engine in nKp?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5MCc_6HoX5k

If that sounds better than LFS sound in your opinion, then I simply can't understand. Maybe the sound is not so smooth and sanitized like in LFS but that horrible distortion is definitely not making it more real either.

It amuses me how the synth engine in nKp produces so similar sound to onboard vids with cheap mics where the sound is completely distorted because of wind noise. Just compare it (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-W9jUrNSifo)...

The crossfaded/sampled engine in nKp is ok (altough sounds somehow like V12 diesel, it's a bit off regarding the engines in those formulas) but no point comparing that to LFS, everyone knows the difference in sampled and synthed sound.

The crossfade sounds can be really hilarious in nk pro: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bkwBYnIm3l0. And I meant the synth sounds. I don't get those clippings in nk pro, although I haven't even tried it online for months. Iirc nk pro works quite well offline but you get all kind of weird sounds distortions&bugs online. At elast I did back then.

I admit that the sounds in nk pro sound way too much like those crappy onboard videos but in the end the sounds are more credible than the sounds of LFS. It is not about how good it sounds in the end, it is the credibility which makes the sounds good for me.

[axus]

Scawen said though, that the engine simulation is in need of a makeover before we can get a significant improvement in sounds. Let's hope that that's in the not-too-distant future... so many things need to be updated. :schwitz:

[deggis]

The crossfade sounds can be really hilarious in nk pro: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bkwBYnIm3l0.
Those off throttle noises you mean?

And I meant the synth sounds. I don't get those clippings in nk pro, although I haven't even tried it online for months. Iirc nk pro works quite well offline but you get all kind of weird sounds distortions&bugs online. At elast I did back then.
I have never heard how it sounds without those clippings, I'm not so sure is there even any specific clipping problem. I don't remember huge discussion over this at the nKp RSCnet forum. I've thought that's just the way it sounds. If there is some kind of hardware prob with the clipping, then it must be pretty bad problem because I guess that's how it sounds for majority of the players...

Don't know how online affects the sound (that video I posted is from offline afaik), I'm one of those who got the "sorry, no win" card regarding online (un)functionality in nkp.

I admit that the sounds in nk pro sound way too much like those crappy onboard videos but in the end the sounds are more credible than the sounds of LFS. It is not about how good it sounds in the end, it is the credibility which makes the sounds good for me.
I don't get it. Explain this credibility :) Only thing that matters is how it sounds in the end and how accurate it is (feedback).

[JeffR]

Sounds and graphics - seems a bit off topic, but if you want sounds and graphics comarasons:

Live For Speed:

lfsslzg.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/lfs/lfsslzg.wmv)

lfsblf1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/lfs/lfsblf1.wmv)

Race 07:

r07obc3.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/r07/r07obc3.wmv)

r07bhf31.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/r07/r07bhf31.wmv)

Arcade racers like Need For Speed series are hard to beat Carbon:

nfscview.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/nfsc/nfscview.wmv)

ncsctccx.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/nfsc/ncsctccx.wmv)

NFS High Stakes (released in 1999):

n4kpcl.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4kpcl.wmv)

n4raf1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/nfs4/n4raf1.wmv)

[danowat]

They can afford to spend the time of graphics, because it's aimed at a different demographic of people, bells and whistles graphics over physics.

[xaotik]

Jeff, I have to ask: is there any time that you don't have fraps going when playing a driving game? You seem to have an endless supply of video captures from games.

[Hyperactive]

Those off throttle noises you mean?
No I mean that the car sounds like a nascar with a 5-litre engine instead of that 1.8 what it is supposed to be... Kinda like putting a 3litre V12 in UF1 and saying it sounds great. It sounds, but where is the credibility? UF's engine is not a V12, it is a 1-litre I4 but it doesn't sound like one. Or it does but barely.

For a UF1 comparison has anyone driven an old VW beetle in real life? Those sound amazing compared to UF1 in LFS :)
I have never heard how it sounds without those clippings, I'm not so sure is there even any specific clipping problem. I don't remember huge discussion over this at the nKp RSCnet forum. I've thought that's just the way it sounds. If there is some kind of hardware prob with the clipping, then it must be pretty bad problem because I guess that's how it sounds for majority of the players...
Clipping in LFS is very different than what it is in nk pro. In LFS the sound kinda jams or resonates while in nk pro you get those glitch sounds, kinda like backfiring... In nk pro it happens when you are running fraps on the background or play online, at least for me. Probably it has something to do with cpu load, just a guess though..
I don't get it. Explain this credibility :) Only thing that matters is how it sounds in the end and how accurate it is (feedback).
Credibility is that an engine sounds like an engine. It doesn't need to sound like a roaring beast. Car engines have various different tones depending what it is doing. In a car the engine gets louder and more aggressive towards the red line but in LFS it just fades away. The LFS car sounds just are not what the real car sounds are, at least what I hear. Ear is of course not a precise intrument but the difference in sound is amazing when you compare a 3-litre engine in LFS and in real life. :)

[xaotik]

In LFS the sound kinda jams or resonates

...

In a car the engine gets louder and more aggressive towards the red line but in LFS it just fades away

The exhaust model in LFS appears to be a ring modulated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_modulation) waveform (short sample) which basically creates all sorts of resonance. Also its anti-clipping mechanism works like a limiting compressor, it just doesn't send out the audio if it crosses a given volume threshold, however it seems to monitor all frequencies - so even if some range is free of too loud audio and one other range does cross the threshold it will stop the audio. What I still think would benefit LFS is a normal compressor before the limiter, that way the quieter sounds (which in this case tend to be lower frequency too) would have a chance instead of causing clipping and getting removed.

If you play with the waveform sample source you can try this, set the sample to a lower pitch and notice how at higher RPM it starts to "disappear" if you don't induce some modulation to it with the "exhaust pulse tone" setting - however setting that too high if your waveform's dynamic range is maxed out will cause clipping and again it'll just fade out and leave you with the wind noises.

The pisser is that the limiter is applied to the sum of sounds, so if any of your higher frequency sounds like gear whine, air intake, etc are dominating a given range then it'll cause clipping all over again and due to the way the limiter appears to work it's bye-bye audio.

[z3r0c00l]

If you want the car to sound more sporty, crank the 1.5th and 4.5th engine order sound pressure levels.

This is why cars with twin exhaust 4-2 manifold into mid muffler with 3 chambers sound more sporty than a single pipe with a simpler 1 in, 1 out muffler of the same literage. Both have a neglectable effect on back pressure.


Look at thse two different frequency maps for exhaust system design, one has a single mid muffler, and produced a sanitized lfs style sound, the other, with more red line towards the top of the engine range, produces louder frequency responses accross the engine order speeds. This second, sportier, growlier trait is what lfs is missing.

[deggis]

No I mean that the car sounds like a nascar with a 5-litre engine instead of that 1.8 what it is supposed to be... Kinda like putting a 3litre V12 in UF1 and saying it sounds great. It sounds, but where is the credibility? UF's engine is not a V12, it is a 1-litre I4 but it doesn't sound like one. Or it does but barely.
Oh, ok. Like I said previously too, the crossfaded (sampled) sound in nkp is a bit overkill regarding the engines in the game.

Clipping in LFS is very different than what it is in nk pro. In LFS the sound kinda jams or resonates while in nk pro you get those glitch sounds, kinda like backfiring... In nk pro it happens when you are running fraps on the background or play online, at least for me. Probably it has something to do with cpu load, just a guess though..
Yup but I'm still not so sure is there a specific problem with this in nkp (now forgetting the online issues). For me it sounds exactly like that in the vid I posted earlier and all the vids I've seen it sounds the same. If it sounds for you that much different without this clipping issue, care to record a wav? I'd really like to hear it, I have doubts though, even without the clipping, the way the sound is produced is just so weak in a certain way and so distorted.

Credibility is that an engine sounds like an engine. It doesn't need to sound like a roaring beast. Car engines have various different tones depending what it is doing. In a car the engine gets louder and more aggressive towards the red line but in LFS it just fades away. The LFS car sounds just are not what the real car sounds are, at least what I hear. Ear is of course not a precise intrument but the difference in sound is amazing when you compare a 3-litre engine in LFS and in real life. :)
Eh... I kinda thought you would compare LFS and nKp. LFS lacks this "credibility" but nKp is complete opposite if it's "1000x better"? That I don't understand.

[mcintyrej]

LFS' sound engine is pretty awesome to be honest. It pretty much replicates a real car sound given its stats. Using LFS Tweak I input the Audi S1 Group B rally car specs, I can tell you I was on Drag strip for about 30 minutes revving the nuts off my car because it sounds totally like the audi. For those who are wondering why I spent 30 minutes listening to a german car, listen to this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hEK7POxpVeE

[Mrwei]

LFS is perfect!

RACE 07 eventhought be good at some parts.

but that doesn't matter...

Love LFS race with people.......:):)

[Hyperactive]

If it sounds for you that much different without this clipping issue, care to record a wav? I'd really like to hear it, I have doubts though, even without the clipping, the way the sound is produced is just so weak in a certain way and so distorted.
If I try to run fraps on the background it starts clipping :razz:. And I don't have a video camera to record anything either so I can't make a video/audio just to show it :)

Eh... I kinda thought you would compare LFS and nKp. LFS lacks this "credibility" but nKp is complete opposite if it's "1000x better"? That I don't understand.

What I'm trying to say is that for me the cars don't need to sound good per se. The sound is good when it is convincing, it is something you might expect to hear in real life. I took nk pro along only because it uses synth sounds and as such is probably the only good comparison when comparing the audible feedback and sound quality as a whole. Imho nk pro does better job with the few cars with its sound engine, it is just more credible to an untrained ear like mine.

Of course it is a whole lot more challenging to make sound engine for 20+ cars (from UF1 to BF1) instead of 4 formulas but imho none of the LFS cars sound as convincing as the nk pro cars. Credible sound and good feedback from the engine sounds is something where the differences are very big among sims. That's why I say that nk pro sounds 1000x better, mostly because it is more convincing, not because it sounds like a roaring beast. Which it doesn't, nor should.

On the other hand, the LFS engines are kinda clean and "linear" when compared to real engines which may be one reason why the sound side is so clean as well. The sound engine needs to get its data from somewhere and if the data is too clean the outcome is too clean as well. Or it may be just the ring modulations and what-all that cause the sound to ...ehm... be not as good as it could be.

[Gimpster]

LFS tracks do feel like that were just paved, with glass like surfaces. nkPro is better in this regard as when I drive in that sim I feel like I am driving a car on a real road surface. Its a combination of sound, visuals, sound and physics feedback. LFS for all that is great about it just feels way to smooth and tame. The grainy texture of tarmak and all its little imperfections are missing. That may also be why it some times feels like we are driving on wet pavement as when we do slide its nice and smooth not gritty and full of character.

[JeffR]

Jeff, I have to ask: is there any time that you don't have fraps going when playing a driving game? You seem to have an endless supply of video captures from games.I do use fraps a lot, even for non-racing games (see below). Part of this is to allow potential players to get an ideal of the look and sound of a racing game. Sometimes I get a request to make a video for the arcade games, where I seem to do better than I do at racing sims (I'm about 4% to 7% slower than the top sim guys depending on the game).

As for the non-racing games, I've been a Tomb Raider fan since the original, a few samples from the latest one, where Lara shows off a lot of her moves:

tragp1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/tr/tragp1.wmv)

If you go to my web site, I also have some real race car videos, plus some miscellaneous stuff.

Getting a bit back on topic, I forgot to include this short clip of the sound of a real Caterham (2.3 liter, about 225 hp at the time, rev-limited, later bumped to about 250hp by the guy I sold it to).

cat1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/cat1.wmv)

A 2003 Ferrari F1 race car at Monza:

mnzaf1.wmv (http://jeffareid.net/real/mnzaf1.wmv)

[deggis]

If I try to run fraps on the background it starts clipping :razz:. And I don't have a video camera to record anything either so I can't make a video/audio just to show it :)
I understood that clipping issue with Fraps and that's why I said .wav, you can record that with Wavepad: http://www.nch.com.au/components/wpsetup.exe

As long as I haven't heard how it "really" sounds (without this mythic clipping issue) I can't understand your opinion.

What I'm trying to say is that for me the cars don't need to sound good per se. The sound is good when it is convincing, it is something you might expect to hear in real life. I took nk pro along only because it uses synth sounds and as such is probably the only good comparison when comparing the audible feedback and sound quality as a whole. Imho nk pro does better job with the few cars with its sound engine, it is just more credible to an untrained ear like mine.
Yet again all I can say is that "I just don't get it". :D Maybe we need to agree to disagree then.

Of course it is a whole lot more challenging to make sound engine for 20+ cars (from UF1 to BF1) instead of 4 formulas but imho none of the LFS cars sound as convincing as the nk pro cars. Credible sound and good feedback from the engine sounds is something where the differences are very big among sims. That's why I say that nk pro sounds 1000x better, mostly because it is more convincing, not because it sounds like a roaring beast. Which it doesn't, nor should.
I have to wonder at which point this "convincing" sound comes to the picture in nkp when the sound basicly only consists of distorted noise and it has even less difference between high and low rpm pitch than LFS.

And if we go back to the clipping issue, that if it really sounds different in your computer (that .wav/.mp3/whatever would help :)) then I guess this debait is pointless but I have doubts about that... if it sounds right for Kunos and for 1 player out of 100, then there's something really fubar somewhere.

Is this any closer what you hear?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dYb9y0OaWjE

At least the actual video quality is better than in the one I posted previously.

On the other hand, the LFS engines are kinda clean and "linear" when compared to real engines which may be one reason why the sound side is so clean as well.
LFS vs. real life... what about nkp vs. real life? :)

If I've been too unclear, I don't think LFS is perfect in this regard, not even close but imho wins outright nkp's synthed engine. Third competitor in this class is that Todd's sound engine, Scawen could learn something from that...

[Whisper]

LFS is more an excercise in maths

Even though it's spelled "exercise", that is still probably the most accurate description of the game to date.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Mine's the Canadian spelling!

[thisnameistaken]

Mine's the Canadian spelling!

I thought that was "Exeh?cise"

[tonyonparas]

I have noted bumps that shake car in LFS.:nod: Actually there is only two places: south city overall and in aston national reverse in that heavy braking after the long flatout.
I took a look of RACE 07 at youotube. No no no. That car is going on rails with hell of a understeer. And it goes way too fast.:schwitz:
I´m perfectly happy with LFS at the moment. And remember that it´s going to get better all the time.:thumbsup:

[mrodgers]

I have noted bumps that shake car in LFS.:nod: Actually there is only two places: south city overall and in aston national reverse in that heavy braking after the long flatout.
I took a look of RACE 07 at youotube. No no no. That car is going on rails with hell of a understeer. And it goes way too fast.:schwitz:
I´m perfectly happy with LFS at the moment. And remember that it´s going to get better all the time.:thumbsup:
Turn up your g-force view sliders. The car shakes everywhere! LFS is bumpy everywhere. It's just that the bumps shake you and the car and not affect the car's handling.

[Gromit37]

I have to agree that LFS lacks the feel of a real car's steering vibration. GTR2 just feels more real in that respect. As for sound, I think LFS leaves a lot to be desired. The excellent Caterham mod for GTR2 not only feels more realistic than LFS, it sounds far better too. The sound of the LX6 reminds me of some games from the '80s! It's just too artificial :(

[tiagolapa]

Turn up your g-force view sliders. The car shakes everywhere! LFS is bumpy everywhere. It's just that the bumps shake you and the car and not affect the car's handling.

Agree. Maybe some tracks could be more bumpy but they arent flat. I can see car vibration (not constant like some other sims). I think the solution may be flexible chassis :shy:

The sounds are important too. Suspension and chassis sounds are missing, break squealing and dirt in road too. :(

[xaotik]

Agree. Maybe some tracks could be more bumpy but they arent flat. I can see car vibration (not constant like some other sims).

That's exactly the point - whatever causes your car to bump and jump will cause it lap after lap in LFS because it's there on the track and not an effect that is turned on when you are going at a "high speed".

[flymike91]

noo! Im remembering how the flight simulator X flexible chassis killed my computer (3 fps) right now i'm happy with 100+ fps thank you :)
carry on

[Nikn]

If you want it to look a lot more bumpy, turn up the 1g vertical shift and all the 1g shifts in the views option. I'm not sure, but I think they might be set to 0 by default.

Definitely, there needs to be some kind of sound generated when you run over a bump or when the suspension compresses.

[AndRand]

but you will not notice that from outside view - the car and whels go smooth, I tried it at BL rumble strips - incar view shakes, but wheels dont. Rumble strips at Aston are much bigger and they affect the car.

What I find missing about bumps is that they are too few and too big (ie. FEGreen, AsNat/His/North/GP near chicane), only bumps I feel alright are at KY Nat when you go off the oval.

[TRKAC]

the game feels great to me,i hate those screen shakes effects in other games,that is realistic only if you are a camera in the game and not a man

[Bmxtwins]

the game feels great to me,i hate those screen shakes effects in other games,that is realistic only if you are a camera in the game and not a man
why do you keep bumping 4 year old threads

[rod-kb]

why people still talking about rfactor 1?..when the RF2 is already out...try it!! it's awesome:thumb:!! by the way.the RFactor 1 sucks:shrug:

[GAVD999]

why people still talking about rfactor 1?..when the RF2 is already out...try it!! it's awesome:thumb:!! by the way.the RFactor 1 sucks:shrug:

Because its a 4+ year old thread that someone has just bumped :thumbsup:

[bishtop]

rfactor 2 beta is out not the full release which was originally due in january

[TRKAC]

why people still talking about rfactor 1?..when the RF2 is already out...try it!! it's awesome:thumb:!! by the way.the RFactor 1 sucks:shrug:

II would trry it if there was a free beta option,i dont want to pay to play a beta

[Be2K]

II would trry it if there was a free beta option,i dont want to pay to play a beta

U payed for LFS beta Oo :really:

edit. Okay u did not, i checked ur Status and u are a Demo Racer, but would u buy a license to play LFS fully ? ;)

[rockclan]

U payed for LFS beta Oo :really:

edit. Okay u did not, i checked ur Status and u are a Demo Racer, but would u buy a license to play LFS fully ? ;)

Sorry to interupt, but he was talking about rF2 beta. :D

[TRKAC]

U payed for LFS beta Oo :really:

edit. Okay u did not, i checked ur Status and u are a Demo Racer, but would u buy a license to play LFS fully ? ;)

Noup,i will never buy lfs.I would buy it only to play online,but after the demo online experience i see no point in that


racing online is just full of people hitting you,driving thee wrong way and even when i have a normal race there was no end of the race
after the race is over there is nothing,you just keep on driving

i love how that small car in demo(dont know the name) drives,it feels like a real car and i wish i could have that in other racing games

[boothy]

racing online is just full of people hitting you,driving thee wrong way and even when i have a normal race there was no end of the race
after the race is over there is nothing,you just keep on driving

You joined a server called PVL Crash & Fun, what were you expecting? :tilt:

[Sobis]

Noup,i will never buy lfs.I would buy it only to play online,but after the demo online experience i see no point in that


racing online is just full of people hitting you,driving thee wrong way and even when i have a normal race there was no end of the race
after the race is over there is nothing,you just keep on driving

i love how that small car in demo(dont know the name) drives,it feels like a real car and i wish i could have that in other racing games
Look, mate. If you really think you will get proper racing in demo and CRASH SERVER, you are terribly wrong. Try AA, Redline or other serious servers and then you will get some racing (just a little bit. To get full racing, you need to be fast) and believe me, buying S2 is totally worth it. It has (very) good racing servers, really fun leagues (but you need to be fast to participate there) and you won't see any wrong way drivers, unless you'll go to cruise server ofc...

[Skagen]

Noup,i will never buy lfs.I would buy it only to play online,but after the demo online experience i see no point in that


racing online is just full of people hitting you,driving thee wrong way and even when i have a normal race there was no end of the race
after the race is over there is nothing,you just keep on driving

i love how that small car in demo(dont know the name) drives,it feels like a real car and i wish i could have that in other racing games
The demo provides a demonstration of technicallities with the simulator. But it's not a demonstration of the community you can accsess with a S2 license. People who have bought the license are a bit more serious about the game (or simulator as these people insist it should be called) compared to the free demo racers.
Just look at the big events and the effort people put into it.

[TRKAC]

You joined a server called PVL Crash & Fun, what were you expecting? :tilt:

it was the same on other servers The demo provides a demonstration of technicallities with the simulator. But it's not a demonstration of the community you can accsess with a S2 license. People who have bought the license are a bit more serious about the game (or simulator as these people insist it should be called) compared to the free demo racers.
Just look at the big events and the effort people put into it.

No thanks,why would i pay to play against trolls on this forum. Sorry i know probably most of them are just non educated kids but still...

[Ki-Men]

it was the same on other servers

No thanks,why would i pay to play against trolls on this forum. Sorry i know probably most of them are just non educated kids but still...‚
You are ridiculus.
In any league iff you dont obay to rules of behavior on track and rules for racing you will be banned from league and server.

[TRKAC]

‚
You are ridiculus.
In any league iff you dont obay to rules of behavior on track and rules for racing you will be banned from league and server.

cool story toll,now spam off

peace

[Faultygearbox]

cool story toll,now spam off

peace

How is that trolling?
Yesterday, I was in such an arranged race (27 laps) and all went perfectly smoothly, as the people involved were serious.

[Waste Me]

TRKAC,
The good thing about this sim is if you like it you buy S2 and stay, if you do not you go.
If you want to come back you can, manly folk are helpful the rest,,, tossers.
Really no diffrent to RF2, CARS, GTA and on and on.
The banter is good and most pepole are treate well.
If you want fun on the servers its there but so is the hard core.
Enjoy what you do and live the life you want, as will we!:nod:

[-NightFly-]

Anyone else finding similarities?: http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=893430

[Si Mclaren]

Anyone else finding similarities?: http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=893430

:scratchch

[bishtop]

Anyone else finding similarities?: http://www.lfsforum.net/member.php?u=893430

i also thought this and suggested in here - http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=78826

:thumb:

[TRKAC]

How is that trolling?
Yesterday, I was in such an arranged race (27 laps) and all went perfectly smoothly, as the people involved were serious.

cool story troll

TRKAC,
The good thing about this sim is if you like it you buy S2 and stay, if you do not you go.
If you want to come back you can, manly folk are helpful the rest,,, tossers.
Really no diffrent to RF2, CARS, GTA and on and on.
The banter is good and most pepole are treate well.
If you want fun on the servers its there but so is the hard core.
Enjoy what you do and live the life you want, as will we!:nod:


ok troll now spam off -)

peace

[kochomoch]

after the race is over there is nothing,you just keep on driving


And what do you want ? To go to the next level like in NFS ?

P.S. And "TRKAC" the only troll in this thread is you !

[bishtop]

i wouldnt bother with the noob now,hes obviously someone without friends and thats why he trolls the forum

[TRKAC]

And what do you want ? To go to the next level like in NFS ?

P.S. And "TRKAC" the only troll in this thread is you !

why not? ranks would not be bad

i wouldnt bother with the noob now,hes obviously someone without friends and thats why he trolls the forum

yeah he trolls in all threads

peace

[kochomoch]

why not? ranks would not be bad

If you want ranks buy S2 and drive in cargame.nl S2

[aaltomar]

It is probably a canned effect in ISI games, but it's a nice effect, and certainly adds to the imperssion.

I hate the effect with passion. Feels like the car has lost all it's rigidity and starting to fall into pieces. Also since you know it's a canned effect and has nothing to do with the road roughness it's very irritating.

[rockclan]

cool story troll

ok troll now spam off -)

peace

YOU WHERE SUPPOSED TO LOVE LFS, NOW BLEED B**CH BLEED, BLEED B**CH BLEED, BLEEEEEED!

So long, b**ch you did us so wrong, we can't go on, living on this forum with you.


Don't think I'm trying to be offensive, I'm just quoting lyrics from a song, and twitching them just a tiny bit. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7sO7ZyA7wg)

[USRacer]

He obviously already has s2. His made spoof demo account just to take the piss. Yes, a little birdy told me so.

[bishtop]

He obviously already has s2. His made spoof demo account just to take the piss. Yes, a little birdy told me so.

yeah i agree,has having seen its an account that was made in 2010 but had done but hadnt been used when started posting,its an account that was made as a spare back when was probably a demo holder.

@rockclan lol id love to hear a version with them words,would come in handy quite a lot here

:thumb:

[steve30x]

Going back to LFS (as much as I love it) just feels very clinical and sanitised, which in turn makes it feel a bit "gamey"
LFS Isn't a game? I dont play it on my computer?