Round 8 Objections

[BenjiMC]

Please post any objections to on-track conduct or administrative rulings here in the following format;

Car Numbers:
Lap/Time:
Description of incident or video link:


Full replay to be found here (http://www.mediafire.com/?0xi7eu0zzab)

[R.Kolz]

1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag.
2.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 2.40 mins race session
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter last sector / no 2 car length
3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1 (See attached file and race replay)
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector

4.

Car Numbers: #05 <--------------- EDIT: DBA´s car has No. #12 and not #5 as I posted before.Lap/Time: 1hour 11.mins Race session
Description of incident or video link: diregarding blue flag to TDRT #21.

[nmanley]

Since the DT was not assested to the #23 for Quali chatting there is still a penalty due.
The only penalty for DT on the #23 car was for an in race chat on lap #4.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/126fcfbddd44b9fd3b0bc3080c091a6d6g.jpg

[BenjiMC]

i didn't actually spot that, i was busy typing the stuff for other people. I wont have time to do the objections today and possibly not tomorrow either.

[DeadWolfBones]

Your screenshot attachment shows the 08, not the 23. Furthermore, I have no idea what it's supposed to prove.

[R.Kolz]

Your screenshot attachment shows the 08, not the 23. Furthermore, I have no idea what it's supposed to prove.

The pic. shows 5 cars at SC not keeping 2 car length. Easy as it is.
But:
In case you don´t see anything at the picture you just ignore it.
Or put it in this way:
It´s a simle add-on.

My complaints No.1 to 4 are like the IGCT rules demand clear listed as:

Car Numbers:
Lap/Time:
Description of incident or video link:

Regards TDRT R.Kolz

[DeadWolfBones]

Anyhow, our rebuttal:

1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag.

Chat is undeniable. Guilty as charged.

Ignoring a blue flag, however, is untrue. I went to the outside of the corner to let you through and you ran wide and rammed into me. That's when I did the "..."

2.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 2.40 mins race session
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter last sector / no 2 car length

BigTime was indeed off the limiter until the first few cars got onto the main straight. He did, however, engage the limiter prior to the green flag and stayed on it until the green flag was given.

3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1 (See attached file and race replay)
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector

The 3, the 15, and the 23 all had the limiter off for at least a few seconds after the sector line, however by the time Benji warned the 3 to engage the limiter, the 23 had its limiter engaged and did not disengage it until the green was given. I did not see the 1 without its limiter on. I'd add that since the admin command to engage limiters is not visible in the replay it's hard to determine how tardy these cars were.

(As a side note, the 13 (leader) was doing some weird braking stuff while on the limiter ahead of the 1. Not sure what that was about.)

:shrug:

NOTE: of course, I will not be involved in any protest decisions regarding CoRe cars.

[DeadWolfBones]

The pic. shows 5 cars at SC not keeping 2 car length. Easy as it is.

Understood. You should understand however, that the 2 car-length rule is a guideline and not something that is normally penalized. Furthermore, that location is quite far from the start of the lap (restart/start of the race) and likely happened while the field was still accordioning/sorting itself out. It's not really relevant.

[BigTime]

I will not contest any protest because they will not effect the out come of our season finishing position. However I do want to make clear that in no way did we gain any advantage from the pit limiter protest.

[BenjiMC]

Chose a bit of a corner to show the 2 car gap :really: but DWB has already answered that. Can you give your video's in real time please, not fast forward.

[alland44]

I have to protest against Rudy Kolz, not following this rule :

2.2) When being lapped, a driver is expected to drive a normal racing line and avoid erratic movements that may confuse lapping drivers. If a driver wishes to pull over and slow to let the leader pass, this should be done on a long straight and done in such a manner that the intent is clear to the lapping driver. Under no circumstances should a driver being lapped slow excessively while entering or in the middle of a corner.

Rudy hit me, in a corner, in an insane manouver. This kind of treating the blue flag rule, must be punished hard, in my humble oppinion.

I first did not find it plausible to make a protest, because Rudy´s team and mine, didn`t finish the race. I now see how he pinpoints the rules, and another team accuses him for the same thing. Hitting them in a corner, with "blue flag status".

In danish we have a saying : "Don`t throw with stones, if you, yourself live in a glasshouse" I know Rudy loves this kind of stuff, therefore I said it. We have a discussion on the danish forum, where he mentioned something about complaing about me !?

This is the only incident I have with the TDRT team and Rudy Kolz, so he must mean this situation. I hope your judgement can learn him how to obey the rules, so we can have fair racing the next time we meet.

http://www.forum.lfs-dba.dk/attachment.php?attachmentid=571&d=1193005475

I enclose this pictureset, for you to see. I did not get the best quality, because i have no good pictureeditor on this machine. But you can wind the replay to lap 35 and look for yourselves, if the pictures isn`t good enough.

[banshee56]

I'd add that since the admin command to engage limiters is not visible in the replay it's hard to determine how tardy these cars were.

Might I suggest the use of Race Control Messages accross the middle of the screen to show green, yellow, and pit limiter commands.

Using the scripting is a way that can help the admins do this quickly. A script that with a single button push, sets and displays the race control message, and another button push clears the message and resets the script for the next time it's needed.

My apologies if this suggestion is in the wrong place, as this is a protest thread.

[DeadWolfBones]

Allan, we can't see those pictures (have to be logged in on your forums). Can you post them here?

[alland44]

Its lousy pictures, but I had to run replay twice, which takes half an hour to complte. Else wind replay yourself.

[alland44]

The last three

[nmanley]

BigTime was indeed off the limiter until the first few cars got onto the main straight. He did, however, engage the limiter prior to the green flag and stayed on it until the green flag was given.

OH yes ... he was on the limiter for all of 3 seconds before the green came out. The first 6 laps of BigTimes drive was both impressive (He is very fast) and saddening. Bumping the 25 car off the track in a sharp defensive maneuver (Lap 6) when he could have already entered the pits to serve his DT penalty. Maybe he was waiting for a Safety Car to come out for his DT. :scratchch

[DeadWolfBones]

OH yes ... he was on the limiter for all of 3 seconds before the green came out.

Nevertheless, he was on it, at the same speed as everyone else. This means he wasn't able to spool up his turbo and didn't get any advantage from the time he was off the limiter.

If the penalty is given for being off of the limiter prior to that, that's fine. Can't argue with the evidence. I'm just saying he didn't gain anything from it.

The first 6 laps of BigTimes drive was both impressive (He is very fast) and saddening. Bumping the 25 car off the track in a sharp defensive maneuver (Lap 6) when he could have already entered the pits to serve his DT penalty. Maybe he was waiting for a Safety Car to come out for his DT. :scratchch

As has been previously mentioned in the race discussion thread, it was not a defensive maneuver. It was a bit of the old lead foot syndrome that got the car slightly sideways coming off the corner. Add a little lag to the mix and you have a more explosive bit of contact than it should have been. An unfortunate incident, to be sure, but nothing intentional.

I realize you're upset about the SC (I've read your boards--hope Stu meant IGTC when he said LOTA), but let's not make a conspiracy theory out of it.

:)

[nmanley]

I very glad you read our board as I wanted all of those involved to know how I feel.
Can't speak for Stu but he was the one who worked and carried the team thru the year.

The professionalism of this series has for the most part been very good. Most decisions are made very well.

Remember LOTF is a team of older guys. Investigations are not something I do or take lightly.
The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support Benji's reasoning for a safety car. BT's right rear looked worse than his Left front at the time of the incident.
BigTime enter the pits 2:07 after the start of his previous lap and he ran slower than he could have with the full course caution. 2:07 is 113% within the race lap average. Hardly a moving road block. ;)

It is what it is and we do not expect a penalty for the safety car. No way to be fair about it anyway.

What we do not what is the safety car deployment to be a problem in the future. Maybe do away with it completely. :shrug:

The safety car causes to much problems in real races with finishing orders but they are a necessary thing when peoples lives are at stake. We race a damn simulator. NO SAFETY CAR NEEDED! :D

[DeadWolfBones]

The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support the reasoning for a safety car. BT's right rear looked worse than his Left front at the time of the incident.
BigTime enter the pits 2:07 after the start of his previous lap and he ran slower than he could have with the full course caution. 2:07 is 113% within the race lap average. Hardly a moving road block. ;)

If you took the time to figure that out, I'm sure you also realized that Benji couldn't have known what sort of lap time Nolan could run at the time he threw the yellow (only a few corners into the lap). It was a decision made at a split second. It's easy to say in retrospect that he made a decent lap out of it.

What we do not what is the safety car deployment to be a problem in the future. Maybe do away with it completely. :shrug:

The safety car causes to much problems in real races with finishing orders but they are a necessary thing when peoples lives are at stake. We race a damn simulator. NO SAFETY CAR NEEDED! :D

The safety car will not be done away with. It is our intent with IGTC to create a league that is similar in many respects to the ALMS style of endurance racing, and SC periods are a big part of that format.

We will, as has been stated, clarify in the rules what sorts of incidents are grounds for SC periods, and where officials have room for judgment calls.

[AppiePils]

The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support the reasoning for a safety car.

Not sure what 'facts' you're talking about. I merely gave a description about what happened, which is nothing different from what is stated here by Benji en DWB: I saw Bigtime getting a flat in T1, I notified Benji, Benji made the call to send out the SC and there I went.
What I see here is a discussion about the reasoning of sending out the SC (which Benji described here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=579772#post579772)) and has nothing to do with my description of how it went.

Please refrain from altering my words or putting them in a different context as a support for any conspiracy making. If I have something to say, I'll say it myself. Thank you.

I would not have to add the latter, but apparently you guys removed my access to that topic so I cannot clarify things myself but instead you guys are placing my description in wrong context on a public forum. I personally did not expect this from a team with older guys...

The safety car causes to much problems in real races with finishing orders but they are a necessary thing when peoples lives are at stake. We race a damn simulator. NO SAFETY CAR NEEDED!

From what I have understand the goal of this league was to get as close to reality as possible.

[S k i p p y]

First of all the thread was moved to a part of our forum for which you do not have access. You were not removed from the thread, the thread was removed from the public. Furthermore, it was moved because people have decided to drag conversations from our forum into this forum. If you have a problem there then talk about it there.

[BigTime]

I very glad you read our board as I wanted all of those involved to know how I feel.
Can't speak for Stu but he was the one who worked and carried the team thru the year.

The professionalism of this series has for the most part been very good. Most decisions are made very well.

Remember LOTF is a team of older guys. Investigations are not something I do or take lightly.
The facts as Appie stated on our forum do not support Benji's reasoning for a safety car. BT's right rear looked worse than his Left front at the time of the incident.

What we do not what is the safety car deployment to be a problem in the future. Maybe do away with it completely. :shrug:


I don't know where you got that because nether of my rear tires looked as bad as the fronts... Thats just due to the way that setup was working.

I personally feel we need to throw more safety cars for more incidents around the track. Take for instance in the event of a roll over. I think the full course yellow should be thrown immediately, just as it would in real life. After all it's called Sim-Racing, not play around and half way enforce real life rules... Besides if one of us can't properly run around the track with the rev limiter off under a safely period then I don't think that person is a high enough quality driver to run in league races. The rev limiters are necessary on a league racing format, but then again I don't think so. It really all depends who is driving at what time. I will for sure turn the rev limiter on from now on though.

Also I have a 3 lap buffer from the time I receive a penalty to the time I have to come in and serve it. Regardless of the reason thats a well known rule that all drivers can use at their on digression.

Continue investigating and have fun, see you on LOTA.

[MARSH2a]

LOL,

I know old.

Stu isn't old.

I'd give my left nut to be his age!

LOTF guys, don't post here if your BP is > 140/90!

[nmanley]

I personally feel we need to throw more safety cars for more incidents around the track. Take for instance in the event of a roll over. I think the full course yellow should be thrown immediately, just as it would in real life. After all it's called Sim-Racing, not play around and half way enforce real life rules... Besides if one of us can't properly run around the track with the rev limiter off under a safely period then I don't think that person is a high enough quality driver to run in league races. The rev limiters are necessary on a league racing format, but then again I don't think so. It really all depends who is driving at what time. I will for sure turn the rev limiter on from now on though.

Also I have a 3 lap buffer from the time I receive a penalty to the time I have to come in and serve it. Regardless of the reason thats a well known rule that all drivers can use at their on digression.

Continue investigating and have fun, see you on LOTA.


I agree with your assesment based on DWB's explination of why the series uses the Safety car.
Although if we could all start with our bumpers touching there would be no problem with limiter rulings. :D

[R.Kolz]

You should understand however, that the 2 car-length rule is a guideline and not something that is normally penalized.

I´m sorry to tell you but this is in my oppinion one of your worse statements ever made.

I will try to explain you why.

You´re telling me that the "2 car-length rule" is a guideline and not a rule.

Then you as a IGTC admin might consider to update your IGTC homepage and add a sub-section called "Guidelines"

Pls. let me explain some of my preparation for an IGTC race.

a) I visit the official homepage for the IGTC races:
http://www.igtc.co.nr/

b) I point my mouse on the term " RULES ".

c) I read these rules og the IGTC and understand that me and my teammates will have to follow them during the actual IGTC race.

d) As of the "2 car length rule" I find something in the official IGTC rules set. Here:

RULES:
E. RACE START CONDUCT:
1) Races are started behind a safety car (hereafter SC), driven at pit limiter speed, in single file. All drivers must leave a gap of at least two (2) car-lengths to the car ahead during the parade lap.
1.1) During the parade lap, all drivers must drive respectfully and with control. Pit limiters are not required until the final sector of the parade lap, at which time race control will instruct drivers to stabilize the two car-length gap to the car ahead and engage their limiters. Any driver caught driving with pit limiter disengaged after this point will be subject to a DT.

e) I take this as a rule.Full stop. At no point I will treat this as a just a guideline or something which is allowed to be interpretated at a later stage. And nor/neighter will my teammates do, I hope
Not sure they will follow this rule as of some tactical race reasons but if caught they will not be able to blaim anybody but themselves.

I will attach a file referring my objection 2 made in this thread. Later on I will make my points of objection 1,3 and 4 even more clear to help your decision finding.

Sidenote: I´m aware of that it looks like I´m shooting at the CORE team but let me asure you that this is not the case and I wouldn´t have any motivation to do so. I know the CORE racing only as very fair and competative team and so far I never had to complain about the above.

See att. file regarding my objection 2.

Regards
[TDRT] R.Kolz

[R.Kolz]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by R.Kolz http://www.lfsforum.net/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=580660#post580660)
1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag."

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones
"Chat is undeniable. Guilty as charged."

Thank you that we can agree on this one.
--------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones:
"Ignoring a blue flag, however, is untrue."

I have understood that you disagree on this matter but please let us just forget about you beeing blue flagged as it actually isn´t subject of objection 1. I shouldn´t have posted it at all. Sorry for that.

Regards
[TDRT] R.Kolz

[alland44]

Moved To Suggestion Forum

[Astro [ BJRL ]]

I'd like to say I'm with Koltz on this.
The 2 car lenght distance is something I took serious from my own point of view ( meaning my car ) and I really concentrated trying to do it right.
I had Koltz behind me on parade lap and he acted accordingly. The fact that he overtook me right after start, is due to his eminent driving, so when others try to get around the 'rule' and gain from it, I get annoyed.
But I'm cool now. Just needed to point out it's not a good idea to degrade the 'rule' to a 'guide-line' after the race.

:really:

[BenjiMC]

Just for clarification, The 2 car rule is for when your NOT on your pit limiters. As soon as the "Fall in line, Pit limiters on" message is displayed your supposed to fall in line, bunch up and activate pit limiters, thus 2 cars is no longer in force. You can try to bunch up by de-activating the pit limiter BRIEFLY however.

Secondly DWB is not responsible for incidents involving CoRe cars so the conspiracy etc is against me here. I agree i may have made the wrong decision but we are all human and we all make mistakes. I accept my mistake, learn from it and leave it where it was. Please dont argue on the forums in this thread, it is for posting objections not conspiracies and arguments.

[banshee56]

Any idea when these objections will be completed? The series has ended, and I think it's time to get these objections complete so we can move on to off season discussions about what we would like to see changed and/or improved.

I've only participated on a limited basis, but what I have seen so far, I'm encouraged that this can be a solid, long-running league for LFS. Most leagues have races that are 1 hour in length, which is fine. MOE has 6 hours minimum (and up to 24), so the 4 hour length in IGTC feels pretty good for endurance racing.

[BenjiMC]

Should be done today.

Secondly my post above as a reply to John Holme is wrong, you are meant to keep the 2 car gap when on pit limiters.

[R.Kolz]

Any idea when these objections will be completed? The series has ended, and I think it's time to get these objections complete... (snip)

Excuse me but for me this IGTC series will be over when we have the official round 8 race results and the official overall standings as well.
We don´t have them yet.

Even that I can see that CORE really are some fast celebraters... :D

[rcpilot]

The XRR position was locked out before we came to this race and the FZR has an extra lap buffer with no complaints about it. The likelihood of that position being changed is astronomically low. Besides it just being weird to go back and take that pic once all the objections are done.

[banshee56]

I was simply asking because it appears that everyone outside the series admins seem to be discussing the interpretation of the rules relative to these particular protests.

Yes, there is a mention in the "Rules" about a 2-car gap during a parade lap. Nowhere does it mention that there is a penalty for not holding a 2-car gap during a parade lap.

1.1) During the parade lap, all drivers must drive respectfully and with control. Pit limiters are not required until the final sector of the parade lap, at which time race control will instruct drivers to stabilize the two car-length gap to the car ahead and engage their limiters. Any driver caught driving with pit limiter disengaged after this point will be subject to a DT.

1.2) In the event that the field is unevenly spaced as it approaches the green flag, the marshals may instruct drivers to close up to or back off from the car ahead. Once pit limiters are engaged, drivers should not release them unless otherwise instructed.

We were told over Ventrilo by Benji, that we could disengage the Pit Limiters if we needed to regulate the gap. You can put two cars in a line in the same gear and with the pit limiters on, and a constant gap will NOT be held, simply because of different gearing in the cars (yes, this can make a fractional speed difference), corners, and reactions to maneuvers taken by other drivers ahead or behind.

And about celebrating early....the outcome of these objections on the 23 car will have no bearing on the final standings, as the 23 car was 10 points ahead coming into the race, and had more wins than the only car that had a chance to tie, the LOTF #1 team, thus mathematically making them the undisputable champions. Yes, we were excited about winning the IGTC title, and we won't apologize for that excitement.

[DeadWolfBones]

I´m sorry to tell you but this is in my oppinion one of your worse statements ever made *snip*

I understand the reasons that you're upset. However:

1) There is no way to accurately measure how far apart two cars are on the track. It's easy to estimate, but not something that we can really pinpoint. (Can't take a measuring stick out onto the track.) Therefore...

2) There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule.

Aka, it is a guideline.

We put it in the rules to scare people into following it. :D

Never really expected anyone (especially someone who was not directly involved in the alleged violation) to protest it.

The wording will be changed for next season in order to make this more clear, assuming we still have limiter/spacing rules for next season. Maybe everyone will be courteous enough by that point that we won't need them? :smileypul

[Lotesdelere]

From what I have understand the goal of this league was to get as close to reality as possible.
Yes and I can't remember an endurance road race where the Safety Car has been used because just and only one of the cars had a simple puncture.

Even in F1, I remember Mansell, Senna and Schumacher who were able to join the pits on three wheels after losing one wheel, and there was no Safety Car at all, even in Monaco which is obviously not the widest track in the world.

[BenjiMC]

Yes and I can't remember an endurance road race where the Safety Car has been used because just and only one of the cars had a simple puncture.

Even in F1, I remember Mansell, Senna and Schumacher who were able to join the pits on three wheels after losing one wheel, and there was no Safety Car at all, even in Monaco which is obviously not the widest track in the world.

As i said, my mistake, live and let die.

[R.Kolz]

Objection 3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1.
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector.

I´d like to encourage you to watch the replay.It´s pretty self-explanatory and my motivation on objection 3 was because of the illigeal driving of car #23 ( gaining 2 positions) and #1 ( gaining 1 position) they violated the officilal IGTC rules. Furthermore it´s to see what advantage the slipstreaming of the leading cars give you but not the 6th and worse positioned racers on the track as they don´t violate this rule - which status now has changed to be a " Guideline" only.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones, 21.14:
(As a side note, the 13 (leader) was doing some weird braking stuff while on the limiter ahead of the 1. Not sure what that was about.)

That´s mayby why you introduced the "2 car length" rule? :razz:

[DeadWolfBones]

Objection 3.
Car Numbers: #23 / #1.
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector.

I´d like to encourage you to watch the replay.It´s pretty self-explanatory and my motivation on objection 3 was because of the illigeal driving of car #23 ( gaining 2 positions) and #1 ( gaining 1 position) they violated the officilal IGTC rules. Furthermore it´s to see what advantage the slipstreaming of the leading cars give you but not the 6th and worse positioned racers on the track as they don´t violate this rule - which status now has changed to be a " Guideline" only.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones, 21.14:
(As a side note, the 13 (leader) was doing some weird braking stuff while on the limiter ahead of the 1. Not sure what that was about.)

That´s mayby why you introduced the "2 car length" rule? :razz:


AGAIN, that's the 08 CoRe car (FZR) in your replay, not the 23.

Furthermore, I don't see anything wrong there. They were more bunched up than they should have been due to the 13 car (leader) tapping his brakes and dropping below pit limiter speed. When the green flag came out, the 01 and 08 got better starts and got around the guys in front of them. This is purely down to reaction time--there is no effective slipstream effect at that kind of speed.

ETA: furthermore, the FZR already has a superior rolling start to all the other models.

[R.Kolz]

Originally Posted by DeadWolfBones:

"I understand the reasons that you're upset. However:
1) There is no way to accurately measure how far apart two cars are on the track. It's easy to estimate, but not something that we can really pinpoint. (Can't take a measuring stick out onto the track.) Therefore...
2) There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule.Aka, it is a guideline.
We put it in the rules to scare people into following it. :-D
Never really expected anyone (especially someone who was not directly involved in the alleged violation) to protest it.
The wording will be changed for next season in order to make this more clear, assuming we still have limiter/spacing rules for next season. Maybe everyone will be courteous enough by that point that we won't need them?"

Ok,this IGTC series has in my oppinion been some of the best racing I´ve ever had in my short LFS live, admitted.
Why I posted the objections 1-4? Well, because none of the other involved drivers did as of (1-3). Easy as it is.
Objection 4 I did as it wasn´t the first time I have had contact with a DBA guy at the IGTC rounds. But this one about round 8 will you guys decide but for sure it will be contunued on our danish LFS forum.

And as of your point 1):
Why did you introduce this rule when you are aware of that you can´t measure it? Never the less - I dont even need my glasses to be able to see what´s going on after about 45 mins. of the race right before the green flag was waved once again. It´s on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g


Objection 3 is about PL >and< 2 car length involving CORE Car #08 and Car #1 at race position 2 and 4 on the youtube video.
Thank you for pointing this out once more. I finally realized it. ;-)

As of your point 2) :

One <B>very strainge</B> headline:

"There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule."

Aka, it is a guideline.We put it in the rules to scare people into following it."

Go through you ruleset and find out that about every rule you have there is no description of punishement attached to it.

Want to have an example? Here we go.

SKINNING AND DRIVER NAMING for example. Thousand of other examples to be found.

Where does it say you get a penalty when name/racenumber/skin are not in IGTC-rules order? Nowhere. Your point 2 doesn´t make any sense at all. Let´s for a moment stay at this matter. Drivernaming. Well, TDRT has been there - done that.
See att. file.

This is my very last post in this objection thread. I think I made my point clear.

A serious race league needs some serious rules and I still believe this season, with all of it´s comments is helpful to arcieve an even better IGTC round 2.

Thanks to you guys I´m right now having these discussions. Without you guys there wouldn´t be any IGTC at all.

Regards
[TRDT] R.Kolz

[srdsprinter]

LOTF #1 response:

As mentioned, the lead 13 car was acting strangely, braking while under the limiter.
Upon Green Flag message, I released the limiter.

A by-product of having a Normally Aspirated motor is the absense of lag. The FZRs always gain a large amount of time on starts/restarts as such. This is part of the considerations needing to be taken in account when choosing your vehicle (FZR, FXR, or XRR) in preperation for the season.

[DeadWolfBones]

Ok, I got your and Benji´s point. Pls. don´t make me loose al respect to you guys or this IGTC series, which in my oppinion has been some of the best racing I´ve ever had.

Thank you, it'd been our pleasure to facilitate it.

Why I posted the objections 1-4?
Well, because none of the other involved drivers did (1-3). Easy as it is.

While I appreciate your efforts to police the driving in the series, this is not what the protest system was intended for. In the future, there will be a clause written into the rules that will allow drivers to submit protests only for incidents that directly affect their team. It is the admins' job to police driving in the series, not the drivers'.

And as of your point 1): Why did you introduce this rule when you are aware of that you can´t measure it? Never the less - I dont even need my glasses to be able to see what´s going on after about 45 mins. of the race right before the green flag was waved once again. It´s on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Objection 3 is about PL and 2 car length involving Car #23 and Car #1 at race position 2 and 4 on the youtube video.

This has been addressed in my above post.

As of your point 2) :

One very ridiculous headline:

2) There is no penalty assigned to a violation of the 2 car-length rule.
Aka, it is a guideline.We put it in the rules to scare people into following it.

Go through you ruleset and find out that on about every rule you have- there is no punishement attached to it.

This is a gross exaggeration.

Want to have an example? Here we go .
C. SKINNING AND DRIVER NAMING
where does it say you get race deceicive punished when not in IGTC-rules order?

Well, been there done that. See att. file.

Agreed, that is an oversight in the way the rules are written. It will be corrected in preparation for season 2.

[rcpilot]

And as of your point 1): Why did you introduce this rule when you are aware of that you can´t measure it? Never the less - I dont even need my glasses to be able to see what´s going on after about 45 mins. of the race right before the green flag was waved once again. It´s on youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kI5jH4X-w1g

Objection 3 is about PL and 2 car length involving Car #23 and Car #1 at race position 2 and 4 on the youtube video.

The pit limiter creep is going to happen, plus the lead car slowed down at the last second, we as a team were doing some running for multiple laps under our pit limiters in identical cars for some video footage and we were constantly adjusting our pace. And then the FZR is just a faster car on a rolling start, 0 turbo lag and no traction issues like off the line.

[BenjiMC]

4.

Car Numbers: #05 <--------------- EDIT: DBA´s car has No. #12 and not #5 as I posted before.Lap/Time: 1hour 11.mins Race session
Description of incident or video link: diregarding blue flag to TDRT #21.

You are in the wrong here. Granted 12 DBA was slow out of the corner however you did nothing as a reaction, you just dived through on corner exit where 12 DBA would not of expected you too. Had your car finished i would of given you an LL penalty, not 12 DBA.

[R.Kolz]

ARG....another post of me.


Pls. read my post #40. I have had problems posting this one.

Post #40 is the "official R.Kolz and latest one" to refer to. :)

Obj. 4 - Benij, thank´s for your statement on this one. Done.

Regards [TDRT] R.Kolz

[BenjiMC]

Car Numbers: #23 / #1 (See attached file and race replay)
Lap/time: 45 mins race session.
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter / no 2 car length at some point last sector


1 LOTF #1 and 23 CoRe #1 gained no advantage from this however 23 occasionally overtook the car in front and as such has been assessed an LL penalty putting it in 3rd place.

[BenjiMC]

2.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 2.40 mins race session
Description of incident or video link: no pitlimiter last sector / no 2 car length

No advantage was gained and 23 CoRe #1 was on the pit limiter for an acceptable period of time before the green flag.

[BenjiMC]

1.
Car Numbers: #23
Lap/Time: 23 mins left of qualifying
Description of incident or video link: chatting: " ... " while ignoring a blue flag.

23 CoRe #1 is assessed a second LL penalty and dropped to 5th.

[BenjiMC]

15 Unity Receives 30 seconds off of their final race time however this does not affect their final race position of 6th

[Humbleridderen]

15 Unity Receives 30 seconds off of their final race time however this does not affect their final race position of 6th

did you remember to compensate the time we lost for taking Drive through for the skin problem, which wasn´t a real skin problem anyway?..because then I think we should be higher up as we had a comfotable 4th place at the disconnect.

[BenjiMC]

did you remember to comensate the time we lost for taking Drive through for the skin problem, which wasn´t a skin problem anyway?..because then I think we should be higher up as we had a comfotable 4th place at the disconnect.
Thats what the 30 seconds was for.

[Humbleridderen]

Thats what the 30 seconds was for.

You must be kidding, We went out in the correct skin, I have seen replay of this (not mine) when we went out of pit after the disconnect. Some could see it, some couldn´t. Nothing to do with us. LFS connection problem!

[BenjiMC]

EXACTLY hence the DT is effectively removed by the 30 seconds i removed from your race times...

[DeadWolfBones]

lol, ambiguous wording. He meant you get 30sec back.

[Humbleridderen]

lol, ambiguous wording. He meant you get 30sec back.

So the main penalty was one minute for changing driver and then you take away 30 seconds (the drive through). Correct?

[DeadWolfBones]

So the main penalty was one minute for changing driver and then you take away 30 seconds (the drive through). Correct?

The 30 second credit you're given is to counteract the unnecessary drive-through, yes.

[DeadWolfBones]

While I appreciate your efforts to police the driving in the series, this is not what the protest system was intended for. In the future, there will be a clause written into the rules that will allow drivers to submit protests only for incidents that directly affect their team. It is the admins' job to police driving in the series, not the drivers'.

Furthermore, I'd like to note that this was already implied in the existing rules:

4) If a driver/team feels that they have been wronged, they may post an objection on the IGTC forums post-race.

Though it's a bit nebulous, I feel the intent was fairly clear. This will be made crystal clear for next season.

[birder]

As i said, my mistake, live and let die.

Making a mistake during the race is human, but so would be doing something about it now the race is over.

Yes its clear you gave them an advantage in the race, so now you should take it away and correct you mistake.

[BenjiMC]

It would make sense at first but not only CoRe would of got an advantage by this so it would be unfair for me to change the results because of this.

[DeadWolfBones]

Not to mention that it's kind of strange to penalize a team for a (theoretical) mistake that wasn't theirs. I would certainly protest it, anyway, if it happened.

:shrug:

Edit: Not to mention (2x) that we've already gotten two very harsh penalties for two very minor infractions and been dropped from 2nd to 5th.

[BigTime]

I agree with your assesment based on DWB's explination of why the series uses the Safety car.
Although if we could all start with our bumpers touching there would be no problem with limiter rulings. :D

Ahaha, now thats an idea! We'll just do away with all rules and have the most beating banging series ever .:scratchch

I think another problem with the safety car is the use of the pit limiter. Typically in real racing when the pace car comes in to the pits, the lead car controls the field. Needless to say I think thats a rule we should implement.

[brianmcd]

Till Hamilton causes a pileup

[srdsprinter]

Till Hamilton causes a pileup
Really actually a very valid point. The race at SO4 was the last race before the limiter rules came about, and it was very messy. Under the SC, we all lacked the neccesary proffesionalism to handle the situation.

[DeadWolfBones]

However, that's something that can be improved. It's not a static condition.

[srdsprinter]

Obviously. Standards need to be set and expected. :)

[banshee56]

I agree with the use of pit limiters to help regulate the field prior to a start, but is not using it up to a certain point really worth a drive through penalty? I can see if someone doesn't use the limiter and causes a spin or damage to another car, there must be a penalty of some sort. I think the limiter should only be mandatory when every car is on the front stretch and the steward is within a range of time where he can release the field, not in an area like at Aston North where after the last sector split there are some extremely tight corners that may require the normal use of brake/throttle to adjust to what's going on around you.