LFS nothing new for long time!

[PioneerLv]

About 3 months without no new updates and features. I really don't want to say that but: Live For Speed is dying a slow death?
Any explains?

[AndroidXP]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
2.5 months?? Outrageous!


To answer your question, no, LFS is not dying. In LFS terms, two and a half months of no updates is a really laughable time. Don't worry. Be happy.

[mcintyrej]

How fast do you want 3 people to work?

There's been subtle hints of things coming out for christmas everywhere - just sit tight, LFS isn't dying.

[Rappa Z]

what? Where does it say something may be coming around Christmas?

[axus]

It's good that there haven't been updates for a while as far as I'm concerned. Firstly, this is the first major physics incompatible patch since the beginning of last year. Physics takes time and it should be done properly. And not only that, the AI are getting updated in this patch so it really is a biggie. The longer this patch takes, the more updates it will have where it matters. I for one am hoping for a Christmas release, which would be really awesome. :) Furthermore, in recent weeks, I've often seen the online users hit more than 1400, so LFS is far from dead. And personally, I'm meant to be studying for my final secondary education exams right now so it's better that LFS isn't here to distract me. Relax, if you're bored of LFS, take a break. The next patch promises to be quite awesome, I think. ;)

[Mazz4200]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAcnDevkTnc

[squidhead]

actually no new stuff like new cars made me buy PS2 and play GT4 with my friends on evenings (DONT KILL ME, PLEASE, I BRUISE EASILY)
Physics is crap, but the graphics are nice, and car + track choice is nice...:)

[Don]

what is lfs?

[PioneerLv]

Actually i am scared about: Are devs working on LFS right now?

[PLAYLIFE]

It's good that there haven't been updates for a while as far as I'm concerned. Firstly, this is the first major physics incompatible patch since the beginning of last year. Physics takes time and it should be done properly. And not only that, the AI are getting updated in this patch so it really is a biggie. The longer this patch takes, the more updates it will have where it matters. I for one am hoping for a Christmas release, which would be really awesome. :) Furthermore, in recent weeks, I've often seen the online users hit more than 1400, so LFS is far from dead. ... Relax, if you're bored of LFS, take a break. The next patch promises to be quite awesome, I think. ;)

:thumbsup:

[Hyperactive]

It's good that there haven't been updates for a while as far as I'm concerned. Firstly, this is the first major physics incompatible patch since the beginning of last year. Physics takes time and it should be done properly. And not only that, the AI are getting updated in this patch so it really is a biggie. The longer this patch takes, the more updates it will have where it matters.

If LFS had got more updates recently you would say that it is a good thing that LFS has a constant flow of updates. Now you say that the long preiod is good because it "promises more". I'm sorry, but that is just fanboyism, finding any reasons to make LFS look better.

The last physics update took a year and didn't really have much stuff in it, except the tire physics update that made the road cars fun to drive. In the world of LFS time does not equal quantity. I hate to be the negative guy again but better ai means less people online and more offline racing with the same content.

I for one am hoping for a Christmas release, which would be really awesome. :) Furthermore, in recent weeks, I've often seen the online users hit more than 1400, so LFS is far from dead. And personally, I'm meant to be studying for my final secondary education exams right now so it's better that LFS isn't here to distract me. Relax, if you're bored of LFS, take a break. The next patch promises to be quite awesome, I think. ;)

Well, first of all, setting a release date to christmas is the worst kind of release date if you want to spend christmas with your family. It will also decrease the quality of the patch (the sound "update", anyone?) for obvious reasons - you want it finished and released on time. And unlike you I'd have lots of time to spend racing LFS... ;)

[Rooble]

If LFS had got more updates recently you would say that it is a good thing that LFS has a constant flow of updates. Now you say that the long preiod is good because it "promises more". I'm sorry, but that is just fanboyism, finding any reasons to make LFS look better.

The last physics update took a year and didn't really have much stuff in it, except the tire physics update that made the road cars fun to drive. In the world of LFS time does not equal quantity. I hate to be the negative guy again but better ai means less people online and more offline racing with the same content.



Well, first of all, setting a release date to christmas is the worst kind of release date if you want to spend christmas with your family. It will also decrease the quality of the patch (the sound "update", anyone?) for obvious reasons - you want it finished and released on time. And unlike you I'd have lots of time to spend racing LFS... ;)

Right you are.

You still suck on track though. :razz:

[diablo21]

We can still race AI's online and bet who will be the winner :razz:

[Hyperactive]

Right you are.

You still suck on track though. :razz:
Chewbacca bad, bad!

[TysCaargh]

+1 Flamebait

[Intrepid]

what do u want though? some half baked cars, and tracks.... and apparently karts???

I would agree the tracks are a bit thin on the ground... BUT... it does mean you spend time perfecting them... download the data software and it opens a whole new world to LFS.

[BrandonAGr]

what do u want though? some half baked cars, and tracks.... and apparently karts???

As if two years isn't enough time to make one decent new track?

[flymike91]

I don't really care about better AI, i only race online. I hope the devs don't spend too much of their time on that IMO

[axus]

If LFS had got more updates recently you would say that it is a good thing that LFS has a constant flow of updates. Now you say that the long preiod is good because it "promises more". I'm sorry, but that is just fanboyism, finding any reasons to make LFS look better.

I have high hopes resting on the next patch. LFS is really close to moving sims forward from 1999. If the physics updates are a rush-job, I'll be very disappointed.

The last physics update took a year and didn't really have much stuff in it, except the tire physics update that made the road cars fun to drive. In the world of LFS time does not equal quantity. I hate to be the negative guy again but better ai means less people online and more offline racing with the same content.

The last physics update took 4 months (January -> April). It made a HUGE difference in tyre physics. There's another such leap to be made on the longitudinal forces side and then LFS will have some top notch tyre physics. That's all I'd like to see. It's about time someone got the tyres right.

As for the AI, I don't think anyone who has the option of either going online or racing against AI will choose the AI. AI will be handy if you'd like to race at such a time of the day that there'd be no-one online or you don't have a great connection or you'd like to do some offline league practice. It's what I'd use it for and I don't think many people will stop racing online because of good AI. On the other hand, if the next patch is good on the physics side, I suspect we'll often get closer to 2000 people online.

Well, first of all, setting a release date to christmas is the worst kind of release date if you want to spend christmas with your family. It will also decrease the quality of the patch (the sound "update", anyone?) for obvious reasons - you want it finished and released on time. And unlike you I'd have lots of time to spend racing LFS... ;)

A Chrismas patch made well in advance and polished for Christmas will be just fine. I don't think Scawen will make that mistake again.

[DarkTimes]

I am a bit scared about LFS progress.
About 2,5 months without no new updates and features. LFS devolpment can't be stopped!

I really don't want to say thet but: Live For Speed is dying a slow death? :x :schwitz:

^
That sentence really scares me!

Any explains?

:schwitz:
Two months is nothing for these guys to be honest. I'd be surprised if we see another update before the end of the year. Anyway, the LFS devs do things at their own pace. You get used to it. Just be thankful that the updates are generally worth the wait.

[N I K I]

According to all sources devs are developing AI drivers. Looks like that is very hard task to do so it takes time.
I must say that those AI's might be useful if they turn out as they should be :)

cheers

[pine-fin]

Heh.. maybe nothing new from developers, but I find new stuff on the forums almost every week.

- new engine sounds
- good setups
- graphic upgrades
- mods
etc.

My 'new' xrt engine gives me the heebiejeebies with its raw roaring :thumb:

[Maelstrom]

Patch Q and U took each more than 150 days to devellop!
For this one I guess we can expect something around that :D

It has been already 98 days since the last update!

[NitroNitrous]

You can check the LFS Patchs log and you will see that a new patch NEVER has been released in only 2.5 months, so the development is as usual :)

[Dj-Aeri]

And the rally pack? :D

[farcar]

Heh.. maybe nothing new from developers, but I find new stuff on the forums almost every week.

- new engine sounds
- good setups
- graphic upgrades
- mods
etc.

My 'new' xrt engine gives me the heebiejeebies with its raw roaring :thumb:

Good post! Community contributions are an important part of the LFS experience.

Yes, I would like to see updates faster, but at the same time I love the fact that these blokes do things properly.

[Maelstrom]

You can check the LFS Patchs log and you will see that a new patch NEVER has been released in only 2.5 months, so the development is as usual :)
Actually patch X took a little bit less than that :x (69 days IIRC)

[Gizz]

I am a bit scared about LFS progress.
About 2,5 months without no new updates and features. LFS devolpment can't be stopped!

I really don't want to say thet but: Live For Speed is dying a slow death? :x :schwitz:
:schwitz:

got to be the best post of the month... just grate :thumbsup:

[PioneerLv]

I just asked some people what's going on now. Please, do not gibe on me. :shrug: I am just wondering about, are LFS devs working on something now! And that's all. Anyway, thank's for the explains.

[herki]

Actually i am scared about: Are devolupmers working on LFS right now?
Not about new cars and tracks!

If they aren't active on the forums, that is usually a good sign :smileypul
Forum-browsing devs: Not doing much on new feature, more like bugfixing
Silent devs: Busy with work, no time to browse on the forums :tilt:

[PioneerLv]

Wow that's nice! Damn, now i'll be quiet. :tilt:
Ok, now all is clear, thank you.

[collinss]

I'm sure they wouldn't be working 24 hours a day, plus how long does it take to post a little new or little update on who is working on what? Like seriously. I hope they are really busy but I'd just love to see a small progress update, then get back to work, simple :D

[Hankstar]

Every time people ask for "small updates" the developers push back the release date by three months :)

[NitroNitrous]

Actually patch X took a little bit less than that :x (69 days IIRC)

There is always an exception :D

[GP4Flo]

LFS devolpment can't be stopped!
LFS development isn't stopped - end of the discussion. :)

[Doorman]

This is beginning to sound like the nKP forum. :really: Let's not go there. Nasty.

[Racer Y]

somebody on one of these threads said something about how the development progresses, patches will be fewer in number and how they will mostly be released to fix minor bugs and issues or adding content that won't really be ground breaking in the way of new cars or tracks, but like apps that can benefit what we already have. like adding languages or I dunno - HUD changes. If that's true, then I really wouldn't be holding my breath for a new patch when the changes won't be all that noticeable. LOL so some of you can stop whining about a simple patch and move up to whining about the really big stuff like an S-3 release date. :thumb:

Off topic - sort of.
I posted something similar to this a year ago, but people seemed to misunderstand and thought I was a patch whiner too. I think whoever is in charge of the LFS.net web page should update THAT at least once a month. Put things in it like birth dates wedding/birth/death announcements or new licensed member announcements - something like that. Maybe something like a monthly contest? something that shows the page viewer that we are an alive and thriving community.

[UncleBenny]

they have the link to http://www.lfsnews.net/ right there on the top.

[PioneerLv]

Damn i forgot Lfsnews.net, thank you!
---------------------
Karts, Buggy's?
S3 - Final? :schwitz: :shy:
W - Not final S2 patch?

There is some people who are playing just to see what will be further etc. I only gues! That's not me!
LFS is not dead!
Yesss!

[FinnishFlash]

RIP Live For Speed, long live rFactor!! :nana:

[tristancliffe]

Actually long live LFS, RIP rFactor (because rFactor 2 will come out, and make everything done so far in rFactor obsolete [and if it IS backward compatible with mods, I'd wager huge bugs in the conversion]). At least with LFS it's still LFS1, and there won't be any cars suddenly broken ;)

[Racer Y]

they have the link to http://www.lfsnews.net/ right there on the top.

Yeah, that's good but all it is is a link and it's little (point size) at that. No, I meant something that was current on THAT page. Like a ticker maybe? or a bigger link notice?

All I know is there are lots of web pages by developers promoting video games that have actually been abandoned projects. A certain race game comes to mind. And if you have a page where the
only visible signs of activity is a date that is months behind the current date, then it could be mistaken as being one of those abandoned projects

[UncleBenny]

i agree the link should be bigger and more attractive to click on. it actually to me a second to find it, and i was specifically looking for it.

[skstibi]

LFS is by no means dead - I think this may ease your worries http://www.simracingtonight.com/pages/section/victorlfshr

AHH! That Shaun Cole guy has the same Headset AND monitor that I do...:scratchch

[frankwer]

Actually long live LFS, RIP rFactor (because rFactor 2 will come out, and make everything done so far in rFactor obsolete [and if it IS backward compatible with mods, I'd wager huge bugs in the conversion]). At least with LFS it's still LFS1, and there won't be any cars suddenly broken ;)

amazing logic :schwitz:

[Flycantbird]

I think whoever is in charge of the LFS.net web page should update THAT at least once a month. Put things in it like birth dates wedding/birth/death announcements or new licensed member announcements - something like that. Maybe something like a monthly contest? something that shows the page viewer that we are an alive and thriving community.


There you go again, confounding the reader with logical and
non-aggressive suggestions.

[Zachary Zoomy]

what is lfs?

Linux
From
Scratch

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

lol.

[axus]

RacerY, right now, LFS speads by word of mouth so it's not really necessary. And anyone can scroll down and note how frequent news updates have been and decide whether there's cause for worry. There's no need for LFS.net to be updated unless there is... news.

amazing logic :schwitz:

Yes, Tristan's logic is spot on. rFactor will die. Give it two years tops. LFS constantly has more racers online than rFactor and rFactor is "finsihed" where LFS as is only half way through its development.

[Hyperactive]

Actually long live LFS, RIP rFactor (because rFactor 2 will come out, and make everything done so far in rFactor obsolete [and if it IS backward compatible with mods, I'd wager huge bugs in the conversion]). At least with LFS it's still LFS1, and there won't be any cars suddenly broken ;)
And this means what exactly? Since when have games been backwards compatible? LFS isn't, rf probably isn't and... netkar was't. Being not backwards compatible can only do good for rf2. With better understanding of the tires the mods can only get better.

Yes, Tristan's logic is spot on. rFactor will die. Give it two years tops. LFS constantly has more racers online than rFactor and rFactor is "finsihed" where LFS as is only half way through its development.

The only difference between LFS and rf versions is the price between the steps. S3 prices haven't actually been published yet and rf2 will be probably the same as rf did. And rf2 will replace rf just like LFS S3 will replace S2.

Rf2 will be similar like rf was, S3 will be similar like S2 was, Nascar03 was similar like 02 was. The version number is a moot point anyway. You want the best sim and you will pay the price anyway ;)

It is really wait and see, with LFS, with rf2, with nkpro, with iracing, with kartsim. With the current state of racing sims and their physics: backwards compatibility can only make things worse!

Bring on teh revoluzione, kick teh sh1t out :) ;)

EDIT: not saying any sim is sh1t. Sh1t is not even a word ;)

[axus]

Well, I'm hoping that LFS at least has the tyre physics nailed down properly after the next patch (though they're better than anything else around, sim physics should be stacked up against real life). After that, my biggest itch with LFS is the amount of stuff on the HUD. I'm really craving for a hardcore mode. Proper forced in-car view (ie. so you can use a custom camera that's within the cockpit), no speedos in racing cars, no F9/F10, F11 done by adjustments on the dash, only F12 done as it is now. No shift+L either while I'm at it. No car reset (standard in hardcore mode). No minimap or HUD "YELLOW FLAG" texts but track marshals and functional pit exit lights. No positions list, a pitboard instead. And you have to drive to the pits to actually pit. If you spectate, you can't rejoin for 1 minute so it's as if a tow car went out or something like that. This, combined with some improved physics would be amazing. (Obviously not in the next patch)

[gohfeld23]

Even though most of you know this already, I'm going to repeat what Scaven said/wrote.
AI is being worked on not entirely for the sake of AI but for the Alpha status of LFS.
In order to remove the Alpha tag, AI, amongst some other things, have to be finished to a certain point.

Once AI is out of the way, we are golden as then the team can work towards finalising S2 in terms of tyres, physics, graphics, etc.

But AI needs to be done, regardless of the fact that many of us don't have a need for it.

As this is a paying game/sim, certain rules and general guidelines apply.
Finishing AI will allow LFS to more forward without looking like a half assed project (which it certainly isn't to most of us even now).

[mutt107]

DONT PUSH THE DEVS FOR NEW TRACKS AND CARS.


sry for caps :(

[ORION]

those threads are really boring....
PLEASE close this mods *yawn*

[PioneerLv]

Who push you to read those threads?

[mrodgers]

The only difference between LFS and rf versions is the price between the steps. S3 prices haven't actually been published yet and rf2 will be probably the same as rf did. And rf2 will replace rf just like LFS S3 will replace S2.

Rf2 will be similar like rf was, S3 will be similar like S2 was, Nascar03 was similar like 02 was. The version number is a moot point anyway. You want the best sim and you will pay the price anyway ;)
I don't think he meant true backwards compatibility, but you can look at it like backwards license compatibility. If you have rFactor when rFactor2 comes out, you won't be able to do anything. Where as if you have an S1 license, you only are limited to the content of S1. You still have all the features of S2. That's not saying that S1/2 to S3 is going to be that way or not though.

[tristancliffe]

And this means what exactly? Since when have games been backwards compatible? LFS isn't, rf probably isn't and... netkar was't. Being not backwards compatible can only do good for rf2. With better understanding of the tires the mods can only get better.

The point was that someone was saying that rFactor will not die. It will, and with it so will all the current mods, even the good ones. How well will they convert to rF2 is unknown, but I bet it won't be a copy-paste job.

In LFS, our content is unaffected by patches/versions, since it's all standard.

So whilst both programs will go onto newer versions (be it S2, S3, LFS2, rF2 etc), one will continue where it left off but be better, the other will start from scratch with a (hopefully) improved base.

That's what I meant.

[frankwer]

The other point is that rFactor development havent stopped either, it`s just the new development will turn into rFactor 2. It`s the same developers. Ok, you must pay for the new functionality, but the same do u with LFS s1 to s2 and eventually s3.

rFactor have come with patches from version 1.00 to 1.255. And the content from rFactor will most likely be converted to rFactor 2 if not the developers include it.

[patko]

good update need time...
we trust in lfs and his devs, wait and see!

[bo-kristiansen]

I dont understand why they are going to update the AI at all.

LFS - ONLINE racing simulator



:scratchch

why dont they just remove the AI completly from LFS.
...problem solved.

[Smurfen]

I dont understand why they are going to update the AI at all.

LFS - ONLINE racing simulator



:scratchch

why dont they just remove the AI completly from LFS.
...problem solved.

agreed, then they could start focusing on other things :nod:

[danowat]

Something I have been saying for a loooooonnngg time

[kompa]

i think he actually enjoys coding the ai plus there ARE people who need it for whatever reason. it's definitely something that has to be there imo.

[AndroidXP]

Hey, I have an even better idea:

LFS - online racing SIMULATOR

Lets take out any controller support apart from FF wheels, I mean, it's supposed to be a simulator, right? Oh and also disable all that auto-clutch crap, and not allow paddles on cars that don't have them ingame. Basically, let's remove anyone from the target audience that doesn't have a G25 or better wheel. But actually, these guys still have too much of an advantage, considering that they don't suffer from forces - so let's make a motion simulator a requirement, too.

Removing everything that is slightly out of scope or causes slight problems is not the way to go. Just because YOU don't use the AI doesn't mean nobody else appreciates it.

[danowat]

Removing everything that is slightly out of scope or causes slight problems is not the way to go. Just because YOU don't use the AI doesn't mean nobody else appreciates it.

Fair point made, maybe I should have put an IMO in my post :thumb:

[southamptonfc]

Ok, so some people want AI but surely it's a question of whether the majority of users want AI?

For me, AI is pointless. Like playing BF2 with AI, it would be no fun after playing the real thing....

[BlackEye]

But AI is something what a complete game should have, be its main focus online play or not. Good AI needs to be in the game.
Sort of a unwriten gaming rule or something :)

[Racer Y]

I used to could care less for AI development too. But now I think a halfway smart AI could be a good thing. Actually the AI isn't all that dumb - uh well yeah it is, but Just how smart is the AI projected to be? Is it going to be as smart as possible like a Richard Petty/ Michael Schumacer hybrid? Or like a Weekend Warrior type? I know the AI cars will have to be run on the track to "get smarter", but I'm asking how much smarter will it get.

And I really don't care if it's done or not, but I do think the page should be updated somehow - with something.

[axus]

Err, Scawen has been working on AI since July or so. I'm pretty sure he's done with them and working on physics or something else now. So you lot might as well stop bickering. :p

[AndroidXP]

Ok, so some people want AI but surely it's a question of whether the majority of users want AI?What the majority wants is irrelevant. LFS is not a democracy. :tilt:

[Dj-Aeri]

I dont understand why they are going to update the AI at all.

LFS - ONLINE racing simulator



:scratchch

why dont they just remove the AI completly from LFS.
...problem solved.

Cause people like me aren't racing online for a long time because we don't have time or we don't want to play with stupid people.

^^

Tha AI update is one of the most wanted improvement for me, like the track and car editors :D

[pom456]

What the majority wants is irrelevant. LFS is not a democracy. :tilt:
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

hehe sometime i race with AI, because i'm not in he same time zone than the majority here and if i ant to ply i want to play NOW, so if there is no interresting server i race with my very well trained AI !!!

to all ai haters
if you don't agree with Dev's decision, why don't you create your own game, and maybe it will be better than LFS hehehehe :scratchch i don't think that someone here have a word to say about the developpement of any other game ...... why LFS ... ok some suggestion to improve the game are no bad, but negative comment about something that they already plan to do is not usefull !!!!! and could be disturbing for them !!!

Just think " How can i feel if peoples around me are always negative about my work !!!! """ they are not bots !!! they are human like everybody else here.

[Ian.H]

[ snip ]

In LFS, our content is unaffected by patches/versions, since it's all standard.

[ snip ]



And our survey says [insert stupid sound here].

So the phrase "incompatible patch" doesn't affect the content.. now, I wonder, what would be the meaning of 'incompatible'.

Seriously, LFS isn't some creation of god that has some kind of magical powers or whatever you want to believe it has.



Regards,

Ian

[PLAYLIFE]

Ok, so some people want AI but surely it's a question of whether the majority of users want AI?

For me, AI is pointless. Like playing BF2 with AI, it would be no fun after playing the real thing....

Yeah, cos you = majority, we should ditch AI. Especially, as Scawen has spent so much time on it now.

[Ian.H]

I dont understand why they are going to update the AI at all.

LFS - ONLINE racing simulator



:scratchch

why dont they just remove the AI completly from LFS.
...problem solved.


Fine.. just don't you _dare_ give my 10 year old abuse when he takes you out of a race because he didn't judge a distance correctly due to having no previous experience with other cars in the field.

The other side of the coin, even in the current state the AI are in, they still have far more intelligence than many people in the community (just look at the "drifters" for obvious comparison).



Regards,

Ian

[dadge]

Fine.. just don't you _dare_ give my 10 year old abuse when he takes you out of a race because he didn't judge a distance correctly due to having no previous experience with other cars in the field.

The other side of the coin, even in the current state the AI are in, they still have far more intelligence than many people in the community (just look at the "me" for obvious comparison).



Regards,

Ian just thought i would correct that for you. why do you have to insult drifters at every opportunity?

[Ian.H]

just thought i would correct that for you. why do you have to insult drifters at every opertunity?

Want a Blue Peter badge now? (even though you corrected nothing).

It's not an insult.. just look around the forum, the proof is already here.



Regards,

Ian

[Gener_AL (UK)]

I used to could care less for AI development too. But now I think a halfway smart AI could be a good thing.

Indeed it could, and i dont think its benefiting to just a certain grade or catagory or player, as suggested , if the AI has progressed to a level where it can challange WR times almost and still have the element of "inteligence" to simulate basic character, then OMG
I could even live without the internet, i just hope scawen doesnt make it too good or the best races could end up being offline and OMG the end of LFS ........ :nod:

Just a possibility, but i am actually looking forward to another aspect that i have rarely used in S2 due to the lack of developement in that area. I can only really see this as a very positive move for LFS, one things for sure it gives* the game alot more scope.

[tristancliffe]

And our survey says [insert stupid sound here].

So the phrase "incompatible patch" doesn't affect the content.. now, I wonder, what would be the meaning of 'incompatible'.

Seriously, LFS isn't some creation of god that has some kind of magical powers or whatever you want to believe it has.



Regards,

Ian

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.

[southamptonfc]

Yeah, cos you = majority, we should ditch AI. Especially, as Scawen has spent so much time on it now.

I have no idea what you are trying to imply by that. I suggest you go have a w@nk and de-angry. You sound like an AI-fanboy hahaha

[ATC Quicksilver]

Funny how the people who are actually really good at drifting seem to avoid this forum...wonder why :scratchch

Back on topic, I rekon the devs have done a great job so far, and they will continue to do so. It may take a long time for updates, but at least we get them, and for free.

[Ian.H]

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

Right, so the reason Eric hasn't fixed all the bugs in the current tracks and released a patch is? The reason I can't play old replays with the current version of LFS is? The apparent reason why we haven't got decent interiors yet is?

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

Nothing but speculation. I can make a couple of path changes to GTL files and they'll drop right into GTR2. If ISI have any sense, they'll make the 2 versions very compatible. Not much work is involved in F1C->rF porting either, although more than "todays" games, but that's to be expected due to such a large time span between the 2 releases.

Note however, I have no faith in ISI whatsoever.. they should have fixed rF before thinking about rF2. I certainly didn't get the product I paid for, and was a(n involuntary) beta tester for the 2 years I worked with rF.

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.

Once again, just like S3, no one knows what it may entail.. again, speculation. I'm also sure that if ISI want, they can add everything they release for rF1 as part of the core of rF2, thus losing nothing.

As for your reason for your statement, that's just crap... how many insim "mods" stopped working recently due to changes Scawen made in the insim code? IIRC, quite a few (most / all?). Just because LFS mods aren't cars or tracks, doesn't mean it's not "modable". I know _all_ of my XRT skins from S1 became useless in S2 as Eric changed the mapping.. so I lost a lot.



Regards,

Ian

[tristancliffe]

Right, so the reason Eric hasn't fixed all the bugs in the current tracks and released a patch is? The reason I can't play old replays with the current version of LFS is? The apparent reason why we haven't got decent interiors yet is?

Because he hasn't done them, or LFS hasn't been ready for them to be included in a patch. Because LFS is progressing, and old replays use old physics. The same as reason 1. But we've not lost anything important. And LFS certainly loses less per patch/update/version than rFactor. I don't see how that can be argued - name one rFactor mod that will work with rFactor2 with any certainty without any work? Name one LFS car/track that won't work in S3 with any certainty?

Of course mods that use code will go out of the window. And skins will have to change - it's called progress, and is a good thing. But rFactor NEEDS the mods, be they cars, plugins or whatever (out of the box it's utter and undeniable tripe), whereas LFS doesn't really - although CTRA is okay - the rest are pretty pointless...

Of course it's nothing but speculation. But the reason you can use GTR1 stuff in GTR2 is because both use virtually identically shite engines. It wasn't really an update at all, but a way of cashing in on stupid people who think it's realistic.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Had to make a post about the AI. It would be interesting to see if the people who cry about T1 pile ups and being crashed out when lapping cars, are the same people saying we don't need AI. I would rather have more intelligent AI, and an extended training section which includes flag rules and race craft, than a new car or new track. Simply because it might improve the quality of online public races.

[FlintFredstone]

I don't really care about better AI, i only race online. I hope the devs don't spend too much of their time on that IMO

It would be sensible to be using the ai code for the online prediction, so improving the ai may also improve the online prediction too.

Simon

[Blackout]

an extended training section which includes flag rules and....

First you would obviously need yellow flags that work properly! I hope it's on Scawen's list right after whatever he is working right now. At the moment they are really unreliable, sometimes there is nothing on the track to slow for and sometimes they don't work at all and you get dangerous situations. Some kind of marshal intelligence would be interesting.

[ATC Quicksilver]

I think that stuff would probably come shortly after the AI improvements. We just need a few more flag sectors and more flags really. I don't think the flag system is so bad that you don't get information from it, I tend to avoid incidents if I see a yellow flag before it...however some people don't know what the flags actually mean, or choose to ignore them.

It would be nice just to have it explained for those people, perhaps showing why its statistically better to slow down for yellows, rather than floor it and hope for the best.

[Electrik Kar]

But rFactor NEEDS the mods, be they cars, plugins or whatever


Going by the thread title and many other forum posts of late I'd infer that LFS is also needing some good mods, or at the very least some new official content. Call me spoilsport but I don't really see LFS's increasingly percieved lack in this area as 'feature'. :shrug:

[ATC Quicksilver]

Having mods for LFS would be like installing a home cinema in your new house when you aint even finished digging the foundations.

[Gener_AL (UK)]

Spoilsport :nod:

[Ian.H]

Because he hasn't done them, or LFS hasn't been ready for them to be included in a patch.


I'm talking about the simple things, such as fixing those terrible random "shadows" due to unwelded vertices.. something LFS doesn't need to be "prepared for" and something that should have been done years ago (wouldn't you have been embarrassed to release such material? It's the very reason I didn't release all the tracks I'd done for rF.. I wasn't happy with the end result.. pride and all that).

2 years is _more_ than enough time to fix those issues if nothing else. I've fixed over 2,500 vertices after I screwed up with raising a track slightly from the grass region.. took me ~2 hours and I'm certainly no professional modeller as you know.


Because LFS is progressing, and old replays use old physics. The same as reason 1. But we've not lost anything important. And LFS certainly loses less per patch/update/version than rFactor.

What has rF lost between patches? I started working on my XRT conversion in 1.020.. ironically, without change, it still works the same in 1.150. Your argument here is flawed probably by lack of knowledge in this area.

I don't see how that can be argued - name one rFactor mod that will work with rFactor2 with any certainty without any work?


You know as well as I do, neither I, nor you, can claim one that will or wont.

Name one LFS car/track that won't work in S3 with any certainty?

Probably none, the same as Toban, Essington etc will probably work fine in rF2 as ISI will update what's needed, just as Scawen and Eric will for LFS.


Of course mods that use code will go out of the window. And skins will have to change - it's called progress, and is a good thing. But rFactor NEEDS the mods, be they cars, plugins or whatever (out of the box it's utter and undeniable tripe), whereas LFS doesn't really - although CTRA is okay - the rest are pretty pointless...


rF maybe doesn't have quite as many cars as LFS out of the box (not mentioning tracks as 100s of combos of one track is boring as hell and shows lack of thought / imagination). Not saying that rF's default content is great, but I'm not saying LFS' is either.. I'm bored as hell with the LFS content (tracks mainly).


Of course it's nothing but speculation. But the reason you can use GTR1 stuff in GTR2 is because both use virtually identically shite engines. It wasn't really an update at all, but a way of cashing in on stupid people who think it's realistic.

Ding! Gee... I wonder whether ISI will use a "virtually identical shite engine" too.

Open your eyes Tristan. I know you don't have any time for rF (neither do I for that matter these days).. but you're blinkered something chronic.



Regards,

Ian

[tristancliffe]

You are aware I'm talking about rF - rF2 not rF v.x to rF v.(x+0.1)?

I know, from your posting history, that simple concepts struggle to get through to you, but you've obviously missed the point I was making. Perhaps reading the post that riled you again would help?

And yes, I'm fairly confident that ISI and all near-future versions will use the same virtually idental shit engine for some time. They don't appear to care for simulation - if they did then there is no way GTR, GTL, GTR2, rFactor, BMW Thingy..... would ever have been released.

[Ian.H]

You are aware I'm talking about rF - rF2 not rF v.x to rF v.(x+0.1)?

And there's where you argument falls flat on its face entirely. Unless you have some inside, privvy knowledge of rF2.. you're whistling dixie out of your arse as you obviously have no idea about rF2, the same as most of us here regarding S3.


I know, from your posting history, that simple concepts struggle to get through to you, but you've obviously missed the point I was making. Perhaps reading the post that riled you again would help?

Nothing's riled me, actually I couldn't be in a happier mood.. just that what you bitch about others doing (which I usually agree with), you're sliding yourself into the same category: talking without knowing shit about what you're talking about! Nothing but stupid assumptions.. and you know what they say about assumptions. My guess is you have absolutely no knowledge of what it takes to get even a flat, single textured plane into rF, yet you attempt to speak like you're an expert on the subject of what it can / can't do just because you have a hard time driving it and think that the sun's rays spell L F S.


And yes, I'm fairly confident that ISI and all near-future versions will use the same virtually idental shit engine for some time. They don't appear to care for simulation - if they did then there is no way GTR, GTL, GTR2, rFactor, BMW Thingy..... would ever have been released.

So if they're going to use the same (or very similar engine), why do you see such difficulties between rF1 and rF2?

I'd see a quack if I was you.. that fanboiitis is really taking a grip on your (limited) senses.



Regards,

Ian

[Electrik Kar]

Having mods for LFS would be like installing a home cinema in your new house when you aint even finished digging the foundations.


Sometimes I think we're all huddled inside without a fireplace and no roof. And sometimes it's raining :D

Heh- don't worry about me and my moods. I've digested all the pros and cons for and against modding. But I wasn't just talking about mods. Not that I feel let down, or ripped off- (a kind stranger bought me S2) I have faith in the development progress of LFS. But reading something like this...

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.


just feels wrong to me. Apart from being total speculation, its a suggestion that nothing will, or should change from S2 to S3. Which is a kind of statement against progress. If you don't care that the models from S2 aren't updated for S3- or that physics updates are so negligable that they'll have no real effect on handling (meaning more work), or that the tracks stay the same so as not to break compatability... why even have an S3? So you can do all the things the way you do them now, at night? :razz:

I don't care what gets broken really, as long as things are improved for the better.

[J@tko]

[off topic] On the subject of yellow flags, can an admin of a server throw a yellow flag to everyone in a race, cos the other day i raced a whole race under yellow flag. [end of off topic]

The longer the distance between two patches, the more improvements will be made. (hopefully - or it could be major improvements that take alot of time!)

[tristancliffe]

Apart from being total speculation, its a suggestion that nothing will, or should change from S2 to S3. Which is a kind of statement against progress. If you don't care that the models from S2 aren't updated for S3- or that physics updates are so negligable that they'll have no real effect on handling (meaning more work), or that the tracks stay the same so as not to break compatability... why even have an S3? So you can do all the things the way you do them now, at night? :razz:

I never ever said S3 won't have updated models, or updated this that or the other. I'm just saying that they'll still work! Download, install, connect, play. Job done. With rFactor2 I'm guessing (and of course it's speculation, I'm not denying it, but it's what I believe will occur) that most of the mods won't work. So it'll be Download, install, connect, wait for new mods to be made and sorted out which might take months, play.

LFS content will always be compatible with LFS. You don't suddenly find that the XRT doesn't work because it hasn't been converted to the new version. Because it's all packaged content it will still work! Simple. Of course, rFactor contains some content as standard, and that's also going to be compatible out of the box (by definition). But the life of rFactor - the mods - won't be there from day one.

I give up. It's a really simple concept - maybe I'm not making it clear enough...

[mrodgers]

Folks are seeming to fail to remember, or know at all, what the differences between S1 and S2 are. As released versions, there were huge differences. New content added to the old content. Both a physics and graphics update. New features such as tire wear and heat and pitstops. Now think of it as the differences between S1 and S2 licensing? What do the S2 users have that the S1 users don't have? Content and only content. They still got the physics, graphics, and feature changes.

I'm speculating that this will be the same with S3. The S1 and S2 licensed users will get any and all physics and graphical improvements, causing no problems with compatibility. They just won't get the content. By content, I am also specualting that stuff like rain, wet track, debri and/or dirt on the track, etc will be like the content that Aston, Kyoto, GTRs, LFRs were to S1 vs S2.

They won't be backwards compatible simply because there will be no backwards. Just as when S2 was released, the lower licensed users will have access to the same physics/graphics/other that the S3 users will, except for the content.

The LFS devs are the ones who will make the current content compatible with the new version. The rFactor devs have nothing to do with the content in their sim. Thus, nothing will be compatible.

[tristancliffe]

Exactly, thanks Mike

[Electrik Kar]

I give up. It's a really simple concept - maybe I'm not making it clear enough...
Ah, sorry Tristan. I guess I was getting modded and unmodded confused. I thought you were talking about 'out of the box' (future versions of) LFS and rFactor as a side by side thing. I'm trying to eat dinner, watch TV, and read the forum all at the same time. Bit distracting...

I guess guys really can't multitask!

edit- yep. You made it pretty clear you were talking about mods. Sorry 'bout that.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

By content, I am also specualting that stuff like rain, wet track, debri and/or dirt on the track, etc will be like the content that Aston, Kyoto, GTRs, LFRs were to S1 vs S2.


No way. An S1 license still has heat and tire wear and so forth, these things are not "content" they are things that are built into the engine of the sim. All license holders will have the same features, just like S1-S2. Otherwise cross license racing would be impossible, which it is not. This is not really speculation, since it's been alluded to and is an idea that's been constructed both through experience and just reading the board for years. So, it's safe to say "this will be the case unless something changes". Speculation? sure, just like I guess no one knows if the sun will really rise tomorrow, or not. It should, unless something changes. You would know this if you were not so concerned with your sex wee.:smileypul

I guess guys really can't multitask!

Technically nobody, male or female, can process more than one "thought-thread" at a time, but rather switching between multiple ones is commonly called "multi-tasking". I hate corporate buzzwords with a passion :gnasher:

[thisnameistaken]

Going by the thread title and many other forum posts of late I'd infer that LFS is also needing some good mods, or at the very least some new official content. Call me spoilsport but I don't really see LFS's increasingly percieved lack in this area as 'feature'. :shrug:

I don't think the devs intended S2 to take as long as it has, though. They've said that there were unforeseen interruptions (Eric's new house, Scawen's new family member) so we just have to be a bit more patient.

I am looking forward to seeing new content and new features, but most of it will be routinely ignored online anyway, so I'm glad the AI is coming first. :)

[UncleBenny]

Technically nobody, male or female, can process more than one "thought-thread" at a time, but rather switching between multiple ones is commonly called "multi-tasking". I hate corporate buzzwords with a passion :gnasher:

hey if you've got some free bandwidth, do you think you could ping bob for the results of those tests he was running?

[SamH]

I hate corporate buzzwords with a passion :gnasher:
My fave, of all time so far, is POT. "Plain Ordinary Telephone". :D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

hey if you've got some free bandwidth, do you think you could ping bob for the results of those tests he was running?

Right then,

I've pinged him.

The answer is "pong"

:shrug:

[Hyperactive]

...

to all ai haters
if you don't agree with Dev's decision, why don't you create your own game...

...
You don't need to code your own sim to be able to give criticism about LFS.

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.

Another strange argument of defending LFS against modding?

Will Kegetys' Mclaren work with next patch? No, it needs to be updated to work, just like it will probably be with rf and all LFS cars. Although LFS' system is more automated it doesn't mean that some updating needs to be done manually to keep the stuff working. In case of both rf and LFS the authors and creators of their stuff need to do the updates and then release the patches. In LFS the devs do it because it is their content, in rf the modding community needs to do the updates because it is their content. Again, the whole compatibility thing is a moot point because LFS and rf are so different. LFS is non-moddable while rf breathes and lives from modding.

The whole rf versus LFS thing with this backwards compatibility thing is like comparing apples to oranges.

How did rf get into this discussion anyways? :D

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I never expected (decent) AI from LFS, because it is an online racing simulator. It doesn't mean that I don't like ai - I just think that AI is not important part of online racing sim.

[henrico-20-]

LFS is the first racing sim that i have played more than a year.. ( Nascar 03 i did one year ) almost every time im free from work i start up the computer and play LFS. and that for almost 3 years. i think they can be prowd of what they have created! good handeling, online, updates. And they do it with only 3 persons!! Codemasters, Simbin learn from them ;)

I think its good to upgrade the AI. sometimes i play offline and just drive 5 sec a lap faster than the AI. and its boring that they cannot Pit.

but something else, further back in this topic i read something about kartsim.. does anyone know something new about this sim? the website is never updated and i never read something about it anymore.

grtz
Hendrik

[Mazz4200]

but something else, further back in this topic i read something about kartsim.. does anyone know something new about this sim? the website is never updated and i never read something about it anymore.

We could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you ! :smileypul


To cut a long story short: Karts have been tested in early versions of LFS, but for various reasons were never released to us lot. So, the likelihood is at some stage in the future they will be part of LFS but don't hold your breath. (and don't trust a word i say, i know nothing :smileypul)

[alland44]

I am a bit scared about LFS progress.
About 2,5 months without no new updates and features. LFS devolpment can't be stopped!

I really don't want to say thet but: Live For Speed is dying a slow death? :x :schwitz:

^
That sentence really scares me!

Any explains?

:schwitz:


Dying ??

Absolutely not, mate :)

I see Lfs as great, great value for my money, and I keep getting even more value for my "bucks", now and then. I also wants something new, but unlike you, I really like the tempo that they make the progress in, in Lfs. I can cope with it. The worst times is when they announce a new path, and you expect it on a certain day :) That`s nerve wrecking business :)

Lfs is very, very driveable as is ! And it is getting better in the future !!

I have driven the demo, and then bougth the s1 version. then all the other patches and s2 version :) That`s a privelege, to follow the birth, youth and the entrance into the "grownups" world. What other games offers you that, and have the same quality as Lfs.

Patience my friend - Patience :)

[franky500]

don't trust a word i say.

_______________________________________________

i know nothing :smileypul

how do i know i can trust that you know nothing?!

Im still quite happy with LFS as it is..... mainly because its still an alpha game if thats at all allowed in this argument... Content will come... paitence is needed.

[Electrik Kar]

i read something about kartsim.. does anyone know something new about this sim? the website is never updated and i never read something about it anymore.


Why waste your time with that, when the new Hamster Video Game (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1727700) has just been released?

edit: and coming this summer (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1770138)...

[Boris Lozac]

I don't know how come the WR holders never wine about the updates... or other people who race alot.. hmmm, maybe because they actually PLAY the game instead of whining here on the forums...

Try to break a WR or just get close to one, and you will see how little you actually know about LFS and how you just scratched the surface...

[Mazz4200]

how do i know i can trust that you know nothing?!

"The only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him" :smileypul

[alland44]

"The only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him" :smileypul

I could trust many men, my debt`s - But trust many men my money or my girlfriends - NO WAY ! :)

[mrodgers]

You would know this if you were not so concerned with your sex wee.:smileypul
Much like Vegas, what's discussed in a closed thread, stays in a closed thread.....:really:

Hehehehe :tilt:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I don't know how come the WR holders never wine about the updates... or other people who race alot.. hmmm, maybe because they actually PLAY the game instead of whining here on the forums...

Try to break a WR or just get close to one, and you will see how little you actually know about LFS and how you just scratched the surface...

The flip side to that is this: why bother learning to master something that's going to change in the next patch likely anyway? That's just a source of frustration.

[Boris Lozac]

The flip side to that is this: why bother learning to master something that's going to change in the next patch likely anyway? That's just a source of frustration.

Umm.. that would be a frustration if physics patch changed every two months or so.. :really: but the real case is more like every year or rarely (which is good, better more rarely and make it good, than more often)... so your point is lame really... :shrug:

I'm just saying.. the people who are bored of this content are just not real racers and not perfectionists.. (it's the same kind of people who needs a new track for rF every 2nd day, or they will cry)..
You don't need content to have fun, as i said many times, i could play BL with the XFG for years, and i can't get bored of it..
Just try to perfect yourself and improve yourself and you will see that there is plenty of content here, more then plenty..

[510N3D]

The flip side to that is this: why bother learning to master something that's going to change in the next patch likely anyway? That's just a source of frustration.

i thought its also a challenge and part of hotlapping to master the frustration (no matter what).:smileypul Have a look at the last major updates and see how much time is lying inbetween. Besides, things always getting better so why bother? :nod:

@ Boris: i cant blame the people that want some more content since its been a while but since LFS is different in many aspects, people should know what they have payed for and be more patient (just in case they EVER read the small print). So if "people" get bored they should go and play other games and stop demanding things they'll (most probably) never get (in time). Speaking about it, i get the impression that some people have got a problem to make a difference between a demand and a suggestion but maybe thats just me hallucinating. ;)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Just to be clear, I don't care about content because I agree with you on that point. More would be better, but I'm not hung up on tracks or cars at all. I am bored of not having to worry about braking issues, engine damage, better suspension damage, engine temps / rad damage, locked diffs and other stupid setup issues, poor longitudinal slip behaviour, incomplete aero and so forth. Those things would revolutionize the content we already have, and the racing experience. There are not enough things to worry about compared to real racing. I would rather play the XFG at BL1 with those things, and rather have consequences for curb hopping, rear stabbing, wall banging kamikaze "racers" with 5 balls unlike now where too much goes unpunished. I should have to worry about brakes during MoE. You can always obsess over one single thing in any circumstance, that doesn't just apply to LFS. Shotglass' fabulous quote comes to mind right about now ;)

My point wasn't and isn't lame, it's in fact a waste of time to try and master tire physics that still aren't done, simply by definition - especially with a locked differential all the time.

[510N3D]

well said BBT but something about your point, we are speaking about perfectionism and in that case, people should start playing or hotlapping (you name it) when the game is done, like in a couple of years or so?

I cant imagine you had that in mind. In our situation we can only make suggestions and wait for improvements, until things changes we have to make the best out of it and without us "the betha tester clientage" some (major) issues would most probably take longer to discover or never would be. I agree that doing this makes no sense at one side but on the other side it certainly does (if you know what i mean).

/confused...ehh..
/end :D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yes I know what you mean and of course you're correct. I guess all I am saying is that the counterpoint to what I said is neutral because putting in effort to master LFS is a double edged sword. Tire physics are fundamental of course.

[Ian.H]

Folks are seeming to fail to remember, or know at all, what the differences between S1 and S2 are. As released versions, there were huge differences. New content added to the old content. Both a physics and graphics update. New features such as tire wear and heat and pitstops. Now think of it as the differences between S1 and S2 licensing? What do the S2 users have that the S1 users don't have? Content and only content. They still got the physics, graphics, and feature changes.

I'm speculating that this will be the same with S3. The S1 and S2 licensed users will get any and all physics and graphical improvements, causing no problems with compatibility. They just won't get the content. By content, I am also specualting that stuff like rain, wet track, debri and/or dirt on the track, etc will be like the content that Aston, Kyoto, GTRs, LFRs were to S1 vs S2.

They won't be backwards compatible simply because there will be no backwards. Just as when S2 was released, the lower licensed users will have access to the same physics/graphics/other that the S3 users will, except for the content.

Ahh but as Tristan says, he's talking about rF2, not rF 1.whatever. So when I grab a .vob file from S2 and drop it into LFS2-S1, it'll work, right? I mean, we're talking about different releases, not patch versions.

You seem to be forgetting here that S1, S2 and S3 aren't different major versions, just patches of the same major version, so you'd damn well hope things would be compatible.


The LFS devs are the ones who will make the current content compatible with the new version. The rFactor devs have nothing to do with the content in their sim. Thus, nothing will be compatible.


What planet are you living on? ISI released content with their game and have subsequently released extras too (tracks and cars).. which as I said to the silver-spoon-in-mouth Tristan above, will probably work just fine in rF2 as ISI will, like Scawen, make sure that their _own_ content is updated to be compatible.

It's also patently obvious you fail, just as Tristan does, to understand the actual concept behind rF. It was designed from the word go to be a modding platform, something more akin to an SDK I guess rather than a "here's 25 cars and here's 5 tracks with 10000000 combos because we couldn't be arsed to build separate tracks".

This forum is a great source of comedy.. probably the only reason I visit here any more.. just can't get over how naive some people are and find it quite amusing.



Regards,

Ian

[Spangler_CZE]

LFS going wrong... thats for sure for me :shrug:

[Gener_AL (UK)]

And everyone's a comedian right ? :scratchch :x :nod:

Anyway, i hear you Ian, but for what reason other then nostalga would you want things to be perfectly backwards compable, myself the main hope i would have this is for replays, memories of times gone by etc. (handy but nothing multiple installs cant handle)

Things are always evolving and there are not many games out there that are not broken by updates. Perfection is unatainable, but chasing that goal isnt. LFS has been for me one of very few games to hold my attention and capture my imagination and spirit. This is somthing so glaringly obvious with the opinions weighing in on each round "who is right is wrong" thats how sometimes these discussions end.

I am that sad individual that likes to hope, that people have the rational and capabilty to see what the bigger picture is, and sometimes sense prevails, but yes this place can be quite a comedy of judgment and opinion, but also a place to make sense of LFS. People want things done yesterday, we want control, we analyse everything, scruitinising every aspect of each others opinion. Its alot easier to critise everyones fault in logic or belief or capability, then it is to usher kindness, direction, help or assistance.

back on topic (sorry)
I really hate to end a post on a cliche

"good things come to those that wait"

[lalathegreat]

No one should have to master the game to give criticism of ask for new content. At the end of the day people play this game to have FUN. if you feel that a new track would increase the amount of fun you would have, its a valid request.

[Hankstar]

FYI: "new" not "knew".

Just because someone, utterly subjectively and selfishly, thinks a new toy will make them happy it doesn't immediately make it a valid request.

The validity of any request is proportional to the probability that its fulfilment won't adversely affect the fulfilment of any other valid requests (think about that next time you're praying to some sky-god :D). In other words, if you ask for a new track you should think about the time and effort it would take to create that track, then weigh that against the repeated and numerous requests for things many people find more important such as better aero, better tyre modelling, improved physics (and every other sodding thing in the Improvement Suggestions Log sticky which noone ever reads).

For the record, a stable of new cars and a continent of new tracks wouldn't please me as there are so many aspects of LFS's core, the actual driving, that need to be addressed before I could enjoy those things fully. But if the devs decide other things are more important (like SUVS :vomit:) I'll have to wait and deal with it. I won't sulk that my valid request has been ignored.

[Ian.H]

Hi Al..

And everyone's a comedian right ? :scratchch :x :nod:

Anyway, i hear you Ian, but for what reason other then nostalga would you want things to be perfectly backwards compable, myself the main hope i would have this is for replays, memories of times gone by etc. (handy but nothing multiple installs cant handle)


I don't really, well, I haven't really thought about it too much tbh.. just commented on what Tristan was blurting out about backwards compatibility. Sure, if I'd spent 2 years building a track for rF (would much prefer to talk about building tracks for LFS, but I don't think that'll be happening in my or my kid's lifetime), I'd be pretty frustrated to find that to get it into the new incarnation, would mean a complete rebuild. ISI would be shooting themselves in the foot however if they made rF2 so different to rF, that it'd be easier to convert something from m$ flightsim to rF than update rF1->rF2.

Personally, I don't really care too much as I certainly won't be sending any more money in ISI's direction. They're a comedy outfit.. and completely full of shit!


Things are always evolving and there are not many games out there that are not broken by updates.


Agreed! I certainly wouldn't expect .vob files (using as an example) from S1, S2 or S3 to drop into LFS2 (if there was ever to be such a thing). Just that Tristan here seems to think the sun shines from LFS' virtual arse and that it's all but perfect in every sense.


Perfection is unatainable, but chasing that goal isnt.


That's something I can definitely understand. I'm always chasing perfection, but know I'll never reach it.. but if by doing so, I get close, that's the next best thing I guess... until I start chasing again and it gets a little better.


LFS has been for me one of very few games to hold my attention and capture my imagination and spirit. This is somthing so glaringly obvious with the opinions weighing in on each round "who is right is wrong" thats how sometimes these discussions end.


It did for me for a long time too back in S1 days. Day in, day out I played it, for the best part of 12 months or so. Then S2 was released and it was a disappointment IMO (compared to the initial impact of S1, yet with the updates that came, it should have been "fsckin a!!" all over again, but I never had that feeling hence I've driven very little in S2).

As you know, I even took a 2 year break from LFS to start trying to learn what was involved in the modding "scene" for rF. 2 years later, I come back to try LFS again and as this thread title says, there was nothing new.. same old cars, same old dull track combos.. it became a chore to have even a slightest of interests. I have my reasons for trying to stick it out, but it's becoming increasingly more and more difficult to keep an interest in it due to lack of progress. I understand the limited dev team size etc hinders a more rapid progress, but with the availability of competing products, if progress continues at the current rate, IMO, I think the only people that'll be left around for S3 will be people like Tristan, blinkered fanbois (or maybe my great grandkids who happen to find the site while browsing the 'net.).


I am that sad individual that likes to hope, that people have the rational and capabilty to see what the bigger picture is, and sometimes sense prevails, but yes this place can be quite a comedy of judgment and opinion, but also a place to make sense of LFS. People want things done yesterday, we want control, we analyse everything, scruitinising every aspect of each others opinion. Its alot easier to critise everyones fault in logic or belief or capability, then it is to usher kindness, direction, help or assistance.

back on topic (sorry)
I really hate to end a post on a cliche

"good things come to those that wait"


I can be impatient at times, but S2 is _really_ dragging its heels. There's just not enough variation in the game for me anymore. I'd far sooner 10 _different_ tracks, than 100 regurgitated combos of each other.. and preferably ones with some life in them, not the perfectly flat incarnations currently available with the only apparent bumps being where the mesh sections don't quite meet properly.

And before people say "you haven't driven this car / track combo" or "so your PB is the current WR for this car / track combo?"... you don't have to be a WR holder to enjoy playing a game. I couldn't give a flying fsck whether I win, lose or draw in a race, it's what happens between the the green light and chequered flag that is what makes something fun for me. I don't need / want 1000s of tracks (I think in rF, I only have about 30).. I want a few quality tracks with variation.. something LFS' lack to me unfortunately.. too samey samey and a distinct lack of chasing for perfection that you mention above.

I've tried to see the bigger picture, and would like to have a more positive opinion, but alas.. there isn't much inspiration to think otherwise (for me anyway). That said, the updated AI will be _VERY_ welcome as my littlen enjoys a good blast against them.. but does get frustrated with their currently lack of intelligence and strengths. If they're like they were in S1 days, then great!

Indeed the best things come to those who wait... but at this current rate, I'll be 6' under and still waiting.



Regards,

Ian

[lalathegreat]

i said the request is valid, didn't say it should jump to the top of the priority. At this point asking for anything reasonable, is valid, where it lands in terms of priority is another discussion.

[tristancliffe]

but at this current rate, I'll be 6' under and still waiting. We can but hope ;)

[BlueFlame]

I love the way, people seem to think just because there is only 3 dev's, that they are allowed to take all the time in the world. If they want to make money, they will need to work very fast indeed.

[PioneerLv]

^
right!
-----------------------

Guys what going on here?
Meeting?

:D

(If what, i readed all posts.)

[tristancliffe]

But that is the thing - they aren't making LFS to 'make money'. It currently, apparently, covers their costs and allows them to live happily, and allows them to work at their pace. If you don't like that work ethic, then LFS isn't for you in the long term.

[AndroidXP]

I love the way, people seem to think just because there is only 3 dev's, that they are allowed to take all the time in the world. If they want to make money, they will need to work very fast indeed.
I love the way, people seem to think just because LFS is a software product, that the dev's main goal is to make heaps of money.

In fact it is not. Sure the money is also a factor, but the main goal is to create a realistic and accessible racing simulation. Just listen to the recent interview with Victor that was done by SRT.

[axus]

The goal is more along the lines of enjoying the development process and sharing it with people I think. The journey is no less enjoyable than the finished game will be. Plus, as I see it, a challenger is yet to come along and dethrone LFS anyway.

[danowat]

Ahhh.....complatency, just because nothing has challenged it yet, doesn't mean nothing ever will.

As for added content, it has been a long time since something decent (i.e. car/track) was added, sure we had the BF1, but IMO it's not a decent car for racing, it isn't really a lot to ask for new content.

It does become very apparent when you are looking at combo's to run in leagues, we have had the same combo's for years, I guess you can't be suprised that people are getting a little tired with them after so long.

[lalathegreat]

if development is slow to the point where no new people are buying, or people are leaving the game(which ultimately hurts the overal game). They won't be able to live off that lowered income.
They are not sharing their selling. without all of you who bought the game, it would not be possible

[Mazz4200]

Think it more as a hobby which the Devs have let us join in with that turned into a viable cottage industry, rather than a large scale multi-million pound marketing concept. The Devs owe us nothing and we have no right to demand anything from them at all, we've easily had our £24 back and more besides with the product we've already got.

But maybe it's indicative of this fast food generation that we live in now. We always want more and more and we want it right now, and if we don't get it we'll scream and scream until we're sick !

Don't misunderstand me though, i'd love more content etc just as much as the next guy, but patience is a virtue after all :)

[axus]

if development is slow to the point where no new people are buying, or people are leaving the game(which ultimately hurts the overal game). They won't be able to live off that lowered income.
They are not sharing their selling. without all of you who bought the game, it would not be possible

That's just the point. There ARE new people buying the game, the devs are living happily, developing LFS to be what they envision it to be and enjoying the process. And that's enough for them and (most of) us. If you don't like it, go play something else.

[BlueFlame]

Why is that all people can say 'if you don't like it play something else'
The point is, NOBODY here likes the slow development we all want new things, so in your terms Axus and AndriodXP, that means nobody should play LFS. Which proves me and Lalathegreat correct.

[Jakg]

The point is, NOBODY here likes the slow development we all want new things, so in your terms Axus and AndriodXP, that means nobody should play LFS. Which proves me and Lalathegreat correct.
Do i wish LFS was developed faster? Yes, who doesn't

Do i dislike the fact it's developed slowly? Not really.

[Fetzo]

for me the speed of development in lfs is a huge disappointment. the development till the first release of s2 alpha produced much more interesting content in a short time.

especially the lack of graphical updates (new tracks,new cars) are a reason why i am bored of lfs at this time. it's still the best sim out there. i just wish that the devs accept help from talented modders/trackbuilders to spice up lfs a little. e.g. there is still no decent rallycross car in lfs....(i don't get the point of rx-tracks without a rx car).

i think it's sad that such a good gameengine with so many opportunities isn't used as it could be.

[axus]

Why is that all people can say 'if you don't like it play something else'
The point is, NOBODY here likes the slow development we all want new things, so in your terms Axus and AndriodXP, that means nobody should play LFS. Which proves me and Lalathegreat correct.

Do I wish we had awesome physics, hardcore racing mode with most of the HUD stuff stripped, 64 car netcode, etc. etc. Yes. Am I patient enough to wait for it? Yes, because I have a meaningful life which takes over when I get bored of LFS. Furthermore, Scawen is free to do things the way he likes, and as long as he gets enough money from LFS, everything will be fine. One day, I'd also like to work on something I want to work on without feeling pressure or being rushed - it's the way society should be, and could be, if there were more people like Scawen (or at least more patient people) instead of more people that want everything, now.

[AndroidXP]

so in your terms Axus and AndriodXP, that means nobody should play LFS.
Wait what? When did I say that :confused:

[Electrik Kar]

One day, I'd also like to work on something I want to work on without feeling pressure or being rushed - it's the way society should be, and could be, if there were more people like Scawen (or at least more patient people) instead of more people that want everything, now.

I agree with Axus. Really, I think that most people are able to wait for the good stuff, but the promise of seeing LFS evolve beyond what it is now is quite tantalising, and admittedly sometimes frustrating- especially if you're closely following development. We know LFS is different from other games because we have a fairly close relationdship to development that 99% of other games don't allow. A typical game maybe worked on for years (much longer than LFS) before anyone ever gets a chance to experience it for themselves. That's why things seem slow here sometimes- because the next development patch is always just around the corner.

Impatience can be viewed in both negative and positive ways. Sure- it could be seen as an effort to nag and rush the devs, but on the other hand many people are simply saying that they are hoping to see some new stuff and are excited by the work that they're doing. Hopefully, the devs don't read too many of these threads, as I think they're more for us than for them, but if they do, I hope they interpret what's written in the more positive way, as rushed work will get LFS nowhere.

[Hyperactive]

I don't really get where axus gets his feeling that the next patch will make a big difference. It's been said many times that the AI is the main thing along with the GTR cockpits (textures?). Add some tire tweaks and the huge surprise, like the tire sidewalls. That's what I've read. What else is there to make it awesome? Not asking what it is, just checking. Everything else is a plus ;)

Before anyone mentions the said Westhill updates and South city improvements, look at Aston.

...

The next patch promises to be quite awesome, I think. ;)
Was the last physics patch awesome too?

[AndroidXP]

Yes, it revolutionized the car handling and fixed or at least drastically improved a lot of the tyre issues. If you're referring to the patch X series, just because one letter was dedicated to lots of small things doesn't mean every future patch will only improve small things too. The time will come where aero and damage are fixed, brake wear/fade/heat included, setup options restricted to realistically achievable values, etc etc.

However, one thing will always stay, which are the people who come here and cry and complain about how LFS will die a horrible and lonely death if the devs don't do XYZ right NOW! I wonder when the next Brazilian salesman wave comes...

[Damo74]

However, one thing will always stay, which are the people who come here and cry and complain about how LFS will die a horrible and lonely death if the devs don't do XYZ right NOW! I wonder when the next Brazilian salesman wave comes...

So true..... wasn't LFS dying a slow death 2 years ago?? And it was still dying a death 1 year ago? And apparently, with more S2 licencesed racers than ever playing online, its still dying a slow death. Makes sense........ NOT.

Fact is, nobody has been promised anything in terms of content or timeline for release so all this "its taking too long" crap is thrown into irrelevance. When you bought S2 (or S1) you knew how it worked and the difference in development schedule, so if you didn't like it, why the hell did you buy it????? And if it you didn't know how it worked when you bought it, you must be a nitwit.

[three_jump]

So last patch was 2.5 month ago, so what?

Who of you guys was out for summer holidays this year? Anyone blaming you for taking a break?

Of course it's hard with the "slow" developement sometimes, but I rather wait one or two month more (and knowing that the game is still being worked on) than buying the next cool EA title, get at max. one patch and then buy the next upda... ahm pat.. ahm sorry, game for the full price again.

And at some points the so called less important things have to be done as well. I remember several game magazines critizing the AI in LFS, and now it's being worked on.

Apart from that, Scawen commented on how he's working often enough now, but it seems that he has to point that out again every few month again...

If you guys are really so bored about LFS and its slow progress... hell there are so many other games out there, play them and come back when there is progress. It's still a game afterall and not a religion.

EDIT:
Similar threads: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=14689 , http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=50053 , too lazy now to search more

[Fetzo]

If you guys are really so bored about LFS and its slow progress... hell there are so many other games out there, play them and come back when there is progress. It's still a game afterall and not a religion.
that's what i and many other drivers do. i check the forum from time to time to see whats going on and sometimes i post my opinion, like in this thread. most of the time i do other stuff than playing games and when i do, i mostly play something else, because i am bored of lfs.

as you see, i am pretty relaxed about this. many forum users, who defend lfs at all cost and sometimes even attack others for a different point of view on this topic, obviously aren't. it's not a religion.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Victor himself said in the SRT interview that if people get bored with the slow pace of development, they can go and play other games for a while then come back later when there is new content. Thats the point of LFS, if they just wanted to make money they would only give as 1 year free updates, then make us pay for them.

LFS is a seed that will grow into a forest, RFactor is a rotten oak in the way of a by-pass being kept alive by protestors and Netkar is a money tree with no roots slowly being washed away by the flood of complaints. I should get a job on Top Gear...wait Top Gear is good isnt it...5th Gear then, I can be the arsonist.

[axus]

I don't really get where axus gets his feeling that the next patch will make a big difference. It's been said many times that the AI is the main thing along with the GTR cockpits (textures?). Add some tire tweaks and the huge surprise, like the tire sidewalls. That's what I've read. What else is there to make it awesome? Not asking what it is, just checking. Everything else is a plus ;)

Before anyone mentions the said Westhill updates and South city improvements, look at Aston.


Was the last physics patch awesome too?

Yes, last year's April patch was awesome - if you've forgotten the difference it made, just find a patch P/Q download from somewhere and see for yourself. Aston looks 95% just fine - with E-Kar's textures, it's a great track. Sure, it's not as exciting as Kyoto GP or Fern Bay or South City or, in the right car, Westhill. But if you expected a whole new track layout, you're in for disappointment again. And sure, AI will take some time but 2 months of physics coding WILL make a difference if it's targetted in the right places. In fact, while last year's April patch covered half the distance to decent tyre physics, most people can't appreciate that because they still have some way to go. If the rest of the distance is covered in this patch, that alone will make it not only awesome, but revolutionary.

[Bob Smith]

how LFS will die a horrible and lonely death if the devs don't do XYZ right NOW!
Actually I thought they were already over a third of the way through that. ;)

[sinbad]

To me, all these patches are simply the stepping stones to the only update I'll care about more than a little bit, which is S3. LFS is fine in most areas (good enough for me to enjoy anyway), and all I want is extra content - so it's very hard to care about interiors, track updates (unless very very major, but I'd still rather have a new track), AI or anything else really. They don't add lifespan in my opinion - and I also have a slight annoyed feeling (now that I'm thinking of it) about how other (to my eyes) easy changes are yet to be made - like the pit-stops and strategy systems, despite being requested years ago.
I remember how pit stops were a large part of the S2 boast at launch - to help sell licenses perhaps, but what about the people who have paid and are actually using the software? We have to "make do" with something which is so limited and in some ways laughably flawed that it's half-baked at best.

^^Cynical I know, I'm like that sometimes. I like LFS I really do, and I know this is described as "Alpha". I also would never presume to tell anyone how to do their business, I'm just venting since others are, and as a loyal customer I feel I'm entitled to complain now and then :)

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

100% Agree ^^

I fear my last post sounded too negative, but I feel the same way as Sinbad. I still enjoy LFS, nothing that I've ever played can come close to firing the LX6 around S04R with the G25 at 720deg in full manual mode after a few Guinness... It's just so freaking fun, and the most lifelike driving experience I've ever had on a PC. All that *despite* the major flaws and shortcomings. As for the patch I'm basically expecting AI and some tire tweaks TBH. More than that will be gravy. Hopefully, after the tires are nigh unto perfection and the AI works, we can start to move towards some more interesting changes like the ones I mentioned in my last post. I don't think it's fair to expect content per se in terms of cars and tracks, since content is usually what separates the major releases, at least in the past. Besides, if one new track, or car, was released - it's all anyone would play and then it would be overdone and "boring" in a short time. Better to save content for major releases where you have lots to chew on IMO. I have no problem with combos. The sky isn't what makes the track interesting; it's rather ... well... the track! (ok, at least 80%).

[danowat]

Yup, Sinbad sums it all up pretty nicely, nuff said as far as I am concerned

[KSheppard]

does everyone REALLY care about the AI?

[mrodgers]

does everyone REALLY care about the AI?
The only reason I care about the AI is because Scawen has stated that he wants it done and finished and usable. If he wants AI in his sim, and the sim isn't to progress much until it has decent AI, then I'd like to see it done so LFS can move on to other things.

Other than that, I could care less about AI. I've used AI only in the unofficial benchmarking replays, and I think I got on an AI only server where everyone had their AI battling it out. Actually, that AI only race was a hoot to sit back and watch while we were all able to sit and chat and belittle each others AI drivers. (But then again, since I'm American, I guess I couldn't get much of the humor....)

[Sponge]

does everyone REALLY care about the AI?
I guess.. but we're forgetting the LFS for the biggest part is an online racing game (at least, that's what most of us do)... and who need AI when racing online?
Of course, I too would like to see the AI updated (at least the pit thingy, cos' the AI can't pit).. and other stuff too.. but from were I see it, any update whatsoever would be nice :) just to see LFS is still alive and kicking! ;)

[KSheppard]

I guess it might be good to be able to start a server with 25 cars, all AI untill someone shows up, then 1 AI gets removed for that player untill they leave then the AI goes back out...their would then be no less than than 25 cars ever.

But I guess you'd have to request to take over for the AI so they could pit (oh ya they can't pit :razz: ) - first real driver gets the first place AI, next real person gets the 2nd place AI...hmm this means you'd have to actually pit so the AI could go out (no more telepitting)

[UncleBenny]

if we had good AI i wouldn't mind seeing them on online servers to fill out the field

[The Very End]

if we had good AI i wouldn't mind seeing them on online servers to fill out the field

Agree with you on that.
They could work as an replacement for drivers if the field was short on drivers.

[AK-Chester]

does everyone REALLY care about the AI?
Nah, I don't. I wouldn't mind (or even notice) if they were removed completely. :shrug:

[Danke]

As much as the devs interact with the community (which is almost unheard of), I don't think they're going to read a thread and decide to change what they're working on or move up a deadline to get a feature out the door.

Like most people, I played the demo, saw what else I could get if I bought a license, thought is was worth the money, and bought it. I still think it was worth the money. Any new content or updates from the time of purchase is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

Sure there are lots of thing I'd like to see added. They've already been suggested in the "improvement suggestions" thread, so I keep quiet.

[Maelstrom]

does everyone REALLY care about the AI?
I do (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=508267#post508267) :nod:

[STROBE]

does everyone REALLY care about the AI?
I don't, I never use it, and have no interest in using it.

However, it just occurred to me why it may be in LFS' long term interest to get the AI sorted sooner, rather than later.

One area where LFS lacks, currently, is in North America. It's common to hear people from there mentioning the lack of online activity during their timezones - there's no denying LFS is very Euro-orientated. And the AI is currently pretty unuseable, so there's no LFS for them in NA. But give them working (and good) AI, and you'll build an offline community of LFS racers in North America. When the offline players reaches a critical mass, an active online community will begin to form that could rival that of the European time zones. Obviously, North America is a huge sales market, and it can only be good for LFS in the long term to tap into it. Having revamped AI is like a first foothold in building the product's appeal in North America.

[BlueFlame]

(But then again, since I'm American, I guess I couldn't get much of the humor....)
Well, it is highlighted when you mention it.:thumb:

[Boris Lozac]

Just to be clear, I don't care about content because I agree with you on that point. More would be better, but I'm not hung up on tracks or cars at all. I am bored of not having to worry about braking issues, engine damage, better suspension damage, engine temps / rad damage, locked diffs and other stupid setup issues, poor longitudinal slip behaviour, incomplete aero and so forth. Those things would revolutionize the content we already have, and the racing experience. There are not enough things to worry about compared to real racing. I would rather play the XFG at BL1 with those things, and rather have consequences for curb hopping, rear stabbing, wall banging kamikaze "racers" with 5 balls unlike now where too much goes unpunished. I should have to worry about brakes during MoE. You can always obsess over one single thing in any circumstance, that doesn't just apply to LFS. Shotglass' fabulous quote comes to mind right about now ;)

My point wasn't and isn't lame, it's in fact a waste of time to try and master tire physics that still aren't done, simply by definition - especially with a locked differential all the time.

Yep, i agree totaly BBT, my post was towards people asking for content just for the sake of content... the people who say, i am bored of that track and that car while they are not even within 50% of their capabilities there...

[mrbogeyman]

firing the LX6 around S04R with the G25 at 720deg in full manual mode after a few Guinness... It's just so freaking fun, and the most lifelike driving experience I've ever had on a PC.

Someone call the cops! We have a drunk driver ;) :thumb:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Basem knows all about it :razz:
The poor guy...

[Fetzo]

Yep, i agree totaly BBT, my post was towards people asking for content just for the sake of content... the people who say, i am bored of that track and that car while they are not even within 50% of their capabilities there...

well, there are also racers who don't have the time and motivation to become the perfect driver. there are people who get bored by combinations quicker. people are different. also, if you, like me, don't like monopostos, frontwheeldrive and lots of downforce, there aren't that many combinations possible. everytime i played lfs the last months, i just wanted to be entertained, i really didn't care about being the fastest. more content would be nice, just to experience something new. it wouldn't be a problem if i have to pay for it.

[CLRS530]

With such a discussion you take the devs every fun of working on the project away...

[KSheppard]

more content would be nice, just to experience something new. it wouldn't be a problem if i have to pay for it.

I'd gladly pay the full price again to run,
1) Spa
2) at night
c) in the rain
:D

[Zachary Zoomy]

Someone call the cops! We have a drunk driver ;) :thumb:

someone ask for a cop? I'll track him down in my FZ5 :)

[lalathegreat]

I think the main problem is not necessarily the lack of content, in the form of new tracks and cars. The fact that there have been no updates to the physics or in other parts relevant to game play, in a year and a half. A year ago i would of thought there would of been a lot more improvement by now.

If one person is doing the programming and another is doing the modeling and tracks. i don't think is unreasonable for the team to release a track or a car.

i don't think its too much to ask for like a WIP letting the community know what your working on.

[axus]

I think the main problem is not necessarily the lack of content, in the form of new tracks and cars. The fact that there have been no updates to the physics or in other parts relevant to game play, in a year and a half. A year ago i would of thought there would of been a lot more improvement by now.

If one person is doing the programming and another is doing the modeling and tracks. i don't think is unreasonable for the team to release a track or a car.

i don't think its too much to ask for like a WIP letting the community know what your working on.

The only problem is your own attitude towards LFS. Most of the other people on this forum don't have a "problem". You've not even paid for the game so just walk away if you don't like how things happen - it's not going to change. As a matter of fact, considering the amount of things that have thrown LFS off course (need for Vista compatability for one), development has been coming along just fine. With any luck, there won't be much more of that to come.

[danowat]

Of course everyone can "walk away" from the game if they don't like the way it's being developed, but the reason most people strive for improvements and additions to the game is simply because they like it very much.

I can't see whats wrong with wanting to improve something that you like.

[three_jump]

All of us want improvements (at least I hope so :p), but what "annoys" me is that every few month comes a thread like this around and we start the whole discussion again and again and again. Sure physics updates would be nice, or some new content but we are not the persons to decide about what we get and that's it. ("LFS is not a democracy" ;))

I guess Scawen has a long to do list and works it to the bottom step by step or his inspiration on what he feels like to do / finish. And at some point all the small (minor) things have to be done to make the game easy to use and provide all the small things we have now. I prefer that than having an uber hardcore sim which is a nightmare to use or where I still don't even know how to set up my wheel properly ;)

[lalathegreat]

when i first started playing the game. i thought ok only 4 real tracks, but hey its 3 people. I thought maybe well i guess instead of waiting until its complete they can release as they go. 2 years later virtually the same content. I am getting the feeling that they won't be any new cars or tracks in S2.

[Vykos69]

- and I also have a slight annoyed feeling (now that I'm thinking of it) about how other (to my eyes) easy changes are yet to be made - like the pit-stops and strategy systems, despite being requested years ago.
I remember how pit stops were a large part of the S2 boast at launch - to help sell licenses perhaps, but what about the people who have paid and are actually using the software? We have to "make do" with something which is so limited and in some ways laughably flawed that it's half-baked at best.

What exactly are you pointing at, Sin? How are they flawed and easily changeable? Any detailed infos?

Cheerio, old buddy ;)

[Blackout]

when i first started playing the game. i thought ok only 4 real tracks, but hey its 3 people. I thought maybe well i guess instead of waiting until its complete they can release as they go. 2 years later virtually the same content. I am getting the feeling that they won't be any new cars or tracks in S2.

Well, do'h. Content comes every stage, wouldn't make sense releasing content for free, if it can be put in S3 would it? Of course, it could be changed in a way that S3 wouldn't be about content but features, and I think Scawen mentioned something about changing the concept earlier. But I doubt such radical change happens.

[sinbad]

What exactly are you pointing at, Sin? How are they flawed and easily changeable? Any detailed infos?

Cheerio, old buddy ;)

Heh well since you ask.
The "fill to" system is stupid, and the way you have to mess about whilst racing if you change your plan and decide to stop early is crazy, one of the first things suggested was a versatile "add X% at stop" option.
You can't specify a particular tyre to change.
You can't change to a different compound of tyre, much less to a part worn tyre (should you so desire).
You can't instruct the "team" not to waste ages fixing damage.
You can stop in any pit box you like, but that's minor compared with the way that if you pull in in front of someone in a crowded pit lane, and as they leave they tap you, even slightly - that's your pit stop ended- no fuel yet? go around a lap, brilliant :)

Now I don't code myself, so that's why I said "to my eyes", but those things seem like minor tasks in the grand scheme of things, but they'd improve things loads imho.

[tristancliffe]

Heh well since you ask.
The "fill to" system is stupid, and the way you have to mess about whilst racing if you change your plan and decide to stop early is crazy, one of the first things suggested was a versatile "add X% at stop" option.
You can't specify a particular tyre to change.
You can't change to a different compound of tyre, much less to a part worn tyre (should you so desire).
You can't instruct the "team" not to waste ages fixing damage.
You can stop in any pit box you like, but that's minor compared with the way that if you pull in in front of someone in a crowded pit lane, and as they leave they tap you, even slightly - that's your pit stop ended- no fuel yet? go around a lap, brilliant :)

Now I don't code myself, so that's why I said "to my eyes", but those things seem like minor tasks in the grand scheme of things, but they'd improve things loads imho.

If you have "add X%" then you still need to change it to get to the end of the race. I've never understood why people get confused with "fill to X%" Edit: Sorted this in my head now and understand. But I don't think it's that difficult the way it is. Seems very sensible to me. But I can see why Sinbad wants the other method
Changing a particular tyre might be nice
Changing to a part-worn tyre would require the 'stats' of old tyres to be remembered, and that's not something any sim does. I would like to have it one day, but it's use is questionable most of the time.
The damage repair is the only incentive not to rub/hit people, as there is no aero penalty for body damage. I'm confident that it will be sorted when body damage changes handling/performance.
Being tapped mid pitstop is an annoying 'bug' and should be sorted somehow - either locking you in the pitstop, or ending it without doing the remaining work...

[Hyperactive]

If you have "add X%" then you still need to change it to get to the end of the race. I've never understood why people get confused with "fill to X%"

With current system you have to stop exactly when you have chosen to before the race or you need to edit your F12 while racing. Pit too late and your pitstop is too long and pit too early and you don't have enough fuel. Add % is so simpler to think and calculate while racing. It only needs fiddling when you don't have enough space for the fuel you want to add on your next stop (you need to stop way earlier than you though, for example).

Imho the current system is unintuitive (sp) and hard to live with if you have make changes to your pitting strategy while racing.

And pitstop should end when you leave the pit spot you were sitting at. Not if someone nudges you. It should be possible to leave too early too (accidentally jump starting) and lose a tire and drive over some poor mechanic. The car could turn into a fireball too.

So simple things. But maybe it is like the rewindable replays. You just learn to live without...

[axus]

I think the pitstop system needs the following improvements (which covers what sinbad has said and a bit more):

1. Ability to choose between fuel to x% and add x%
2. Ability to plan more than one pitstop - ie, a special strategy screen would be nice, where you can add planned pitstops (as many as you'd like - with a little add button to add another pitstop) and not only set the fuel load but select tyres to be changed, set camber changes (particularly handy for endurance where your team-mate might like a slightly different setup), set wing changes and everything. Basically everything from the F12 screen for as many pitstops ahead as you'd like.
3. A used tyre rack that can store up to 4 sets of tyres per car, to be used at a later stage. You should be able to select one of these tyre sets in your pit strategy.

The complication with this system comes with having team races such as MoE - a good system must be worked out and that's where the complication comes in.

As for having the option to not fix damage, I agree with Tristan - it should only be added once there is a better damage model and it's easier to end your race.

[three_jump]

set camber changes (particularly handy for endurance where your team-mate might like a slightly different setup)

A bit off the original topic but in my opinion the option to change the camber during the pitstop it totally unrealistic and should be removed. At least I haven't seen it happen in a normal pitstop in any racing series (Please correct me if it's done anywhere).

[UruNico2641]

Having mods for LFS would be like installing a home cinema in your new house when you aint even finished digging the foundations.

Yes, you have a point, but this also shows that people are up to the challenge of trying new things, thus creating mods and what not.

I'd highly suggest a Snow/Rain effects, actual snow mounting on each other, like layers, I wonder if thats possible:scratchch

Also from that Snow/rain effect, there should be weather effects, Raining= grip decreases/hydroplaning

Snowing=limited visibility/ chain tires/ slippery/slushy effect for grip.

This would mark the beginning of extreme realism, to this day, no other online racing simulator has overcome through obstacles/updates/patches/mods/bugs/fixes... I'm very impressed, in fact, I'm marking it that on November 20th, I'm buy S2, its proven itself an amazing game time and time again!

Just posting one message got me to buy S2, who would've thought?:razz:

LFS S2 Patch Z / LFS S3 FOR THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!:nod:

Nick:thumbsup:

[The Very End]

Congratulation, you will not regret having a lisence ;)
As you mention with snow and such, it would be awesome, but boy, it would be hard to implent:schwitz:

[UruNico2641]

Lol Thank You.

Yes, I do see what you mean, it'll be a pain in the neck to create such an update with snow/visibility effects.

and the snow... yikes! Layers of it might not be too bad.

Gripping and all might be easier by changing the values for grip based on the DDS file or similar.

But night shouldn't be a problem, there's already a mod download for that, now all the Devs have to do is make an official part of LFS..

I wonder whether an effect for Roads freezing could be done. A 4WD Championship would open up in S2 :razz::nod::scratchch

Nick

[Racer Y]

You know, I've been thinking, What will happen post S-3? Like to the master server and to LFS world? like i dunno about two or three years after the final s-3 patch. What happens then?

[Paranoid Android]

You know, I've been thinking, What will happen post S-3? Like to the master server and to LFS world? like i dunno about two or three years after the final s-3 patch. What happens then?


Well I guess as long as the devs keep selling the product, they'll keep providing the services...

[ldriver]

Nostradamus has writen something about it but i dont remember ...

[Rooble]

Nostradamus has writen something about it but i dont remember ...

That S3 is a hoax?

[h3adbang3r]

Nostradamus has writen something about it but i dont remember ..."And a driving game will be created by three subjects that will shock the world" :D

[BullHorn]

A team of three could probably release meaningful but small updated every month if it was the sole purpose of their life.

But since it probably isn't, be happy with whatever you can get. The current version is very playable so there shouldn't be too many reasons to whine about it.

:shrug:

[Vykos69]

A team of three could probably release meaningful but small updated every month if it was the sole purpose of their life.

But since it probably isn't, be happy with whatever you can get. The current version is very playable so there shouldn't be too many reasons to whine about it.

:shrug:You have just proven, that with a postcount of 99, you dont know nothing about LFS and your opinion is worthless ( ;) ).

It's their main job, no other job there, so it is kind of the sole purpose...

Anyway, the further LFS goes on, the smaller the developmentsteps get, as the work on the small steps grow a lot more.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Anyway, the further LFS goes on, the smaller the developmentsteps get, as the work on the small steps grow a lot more.

That doesn't have to be true at all. :shrug:

It should take the same amount of time to add feature X at almost any stage of development. Granted, there may be the odd thing that would take longer later on because it relies on many things that were not previously present; but on the whole that statement really isn't true most of the time.

[BullHorn]

You have just proven, that with a postcount of 99, you dont know nothing about LFS and your opinion is worthless ( ;) ).

It's their main job, no other job there, so it is kind of the sole purpose...

Anyway, the further LFS goes on, the smaller the developmentsteps get, as the work on the small steps grow a lot more.

Even though it's the 'sole purpose' in their life, they aren't very active about it. I know a dev team of 2 people who work faster than that and they do it as a hobby (For now, who knows what happens when the project is done).

When I have a 'sole purpose', I probably do it 8-10 hours nonstop everyday. ;/

[SamH]

But you have no idea how active they are, so it makes no sense to say they are not active. Because you don't see changes every day, you think nothing is being done? If that is your belief, it's based on an opinion with nothing by way of facts to back it up. You can have an opinion, naturally, but please spare us from stating it as fact. Not least because some people around here have more facts about LFS development than you have opinions, and their view differs from yours.

[wien]

I know a dev team of 2 people who work faster than that and they do it as a hobby.Do you have any idea how complex the stuff Scawen is working on right now is? I mean seriously, the man's trying to teach computers how to drive cars. You don't just hack that togheter over a weekend.

[mrodgers]

That doesn't have to be true at all. :shrug:

It should take the same amount of time to add feature X at almost any stage of development. Granted, there may be the odd thing that would take longer later on because it relies on many things that were not previously present; but on the whole that statement really isn't true most of the time.
Might be true, if adding a feature X. But as far as we know, he isn't adding feature X, but trying to improve on feature D and H, which we have had for a very long time, but hasn't been quite right. I would think that improving on a current feature is significantly more difficult and takes more time than just coming up with and coding a new feature.

That is where LFS is at the moment. Small features are being put in, but it's the AI, collision detection, damage model, etc, stuff we already have, that I assume is currently at the top of the pile at this stage.

[askoff]

I think new feature development times are geting longer. When more physics are added, it takes longer to implement them because many of the physical effects are connected to each other somehow. For example when adding snow road surface, all the tires have to be adjusted to work on that. When snow tires are added, they have to be adjusted to work on dry tarmac and other surfaces also. So the work is geting harder all the time something is added. Or at least I think so, because that's how things usually work with software development.

[Hallen]

Software development on products for sale is much, much different than for some personal home project... even if the intent is to eventually sell it. Testing, code reviews, code design for maintainability, etc, all plays a roll in how long something takes.

Software development is tricky stuff. Somethings that seem incredibly complex to us, might be a very straight forward mathematical problem to a computer. Other things, which seem straight forward and simple to humans, are virtually impossible to do with a computer. It all just depends.

mrodgers, sometimes you are correct, editing and updating legacy code can take longer to do at times. But this is only if that code is part of supporting classes and data structures that are used in other parts of the program that are not being changed. Then you have to work around existing structures to get done what you need to do all the while trying not to break the other code. Sometimes it is easier to just write stuff from scratch. However, most of the time, it is the ground work that takes the time. The final implementation is fairly straight forward.

Something like getting the AI to be intelligent can be more difficult than what we would think it should be. Software does not make rational decisions and it cannot change once compiled. To make something react in a rational manner in software is quite a trick. I will be very interested to see what Scawen comes up with. Even with the restricted "rules" inside the sim, it will still be a big challenge.

Don't think to yourself that any of this is easy. People have been trying to create tire simulators for years and have only gotten them to partially work. The big question becomes "how do you test it?". There is some math that will help, but in the end, it all comes down to feel. Does it feel right? Does it behave correctly in all situations? How do you quantify that feedback and how do you turn it into verifiable computer code? Not easy stuff to do.

When I ask for a time estimate from my Engineers, I get a guess. "It will take what it takes" is the answer I get most of the time. This is because that software development can still be more of an art form than a science at times.

[Speed Soro]

I think if Scavier are working in LFS, they may have too much work to do instead of losing their time in forum chat or releasing little test patches...

Physics is not a easy thing to develop, and to update the artwork of the cars and tracks is not less hard-working. If, of course, they are working in such things...

S2 is a huge step forward related to S1, and it is not ready yet. Let's wait. After NKP I completely lose my sense of hurry :)

[Glenn67]

...and it is not ready yet. Let's wait. After NKP I completely lose my sense of hurry :)

Thats quite a remarkable statement :razz: from you :D

[Vykos69]

Even though it's the 'sole purpose' in their life, they aren't very active about it. I know a dev team of 2 people who work faster than that and they do it as a hobby (For now, who knows what happens when the project is done).

When I have a 'sole purpose', I probably do it 8-10 hours nonstop everyday. ;/
Yeah, because you exactly know, how many hours they do work every day on LFS... ;) You prolly need more posts here to understand this ;) :D

[bbman]

Thats quite a remarkable statement :razz: from you :D

Well, he realised that even in that regard, LfS is best... :tilt:

[col]

When I have a 'sole purpose', I probably do it 8-10 hours nonstop everyday. ;/

I hope you have your eyesight tested regularly.


Software development is tricky stuff.

Never a truer word was said on these forums !

Software does not make rational decisions and it cannot change once compiled. (emphasis added)

True, in modern programming self modifying code is rare due to performance issues related to instruction pipelining etc. However, it doesn't matter that the underlying machine code does not change, what is important is the higher level data structures and the relationships between them. It is these that represent the real world concepts that are being modeled, and they can and do change dynamically. For a simple (easy to implement on the most basic of systems) yet profound example just look at Craig Reynolds 'boids'


Don't think to yourself that any of this is easy. People have been trying to create tire simulators for years and have only gotten them to partially work.

Isn't it amazing how folks just cannot see that. LFS has been and will continue to be groundbreaking and yet so many casual observers suggest that Scavier just don't work hard enough because there isn't a new groundbreaking sim world re-writing update every few weeks LOL.
===============================

I think there is another issue here that is often ignored that results in longer development times and seemingly less significant improvements.

I guess the easiest way to explain it (I've tried and failed before) is to use an analogy.

When your playing LFS and you decide to try a new car and a new track neither of which you have used before, the first lap you do will be your best - even if its REALLY slow.... this is like the first demo release back in 2002.
After a few laps, you start to get some clean laps and your times drop dramatically.... this is like S1.
Next, you move from clean laps to competitive midfield racing - this takes much longer - maybe 50 or even hundreds of laps depending on your skill.... This is like S2 Alpha
Then you start to get close to really fast times - near alien standard. When you get to this stage, it might take weeks or months of effort and thousands of laps just to shave a few 10ths off your lap times - a casual observer would not notice the difference between your previous record and your new one from a replay.... This is the stage LFS is getting near to - as it gets closer to perfection (still a way to go of course), it takes MUCH more time and effort to make even small steps forward.

--------------------
Another way to look at it is that each time Scawen works on e.g. the tyre physics, he is not just trying to make a different tyre model, he must make a better one - otherwise it cannot be released! For it to be better than the last one, it's probably going to take longer....
It's not good enough to just put the same time and research effort in as before - the results from that level of effort are already in LFS - each new level requires more complex and more precise work than the last - and more eyewateringly brainshreddingly DIFFICULT :)

Imagine how much time it takes to test and tweak a tyre model with, say, 10 inter-dependent variables until the response is believable.... Quite a while..
But then think about what happens when you update the model so it has 20 inter-dependent variables AND your users EXPECT it to have a MORE believable response - not enough to be as good as the last - must be better....
Maybe 10 times longer ? maybe more...

So to conclude my rant, Each update takes much more work and, as LFS gets closer to the 'reality' it is trying to simulate, any improvement is going to be less obvious and have less impact on the user.... law of diminishing returns etc.

enough :razz:

Col

[marzman]

You know, I've been thinking, What will happen post S-3? Like to the master server and to LFS world? like i dunno about two or three years after the final s-3 patch. What happens then?
Why do you worry about that? Then there will come something new. Maybe S4 with the same masterserver, or maybe everyone will be playing Need for Speed Carton.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

@Col:

...

Who the heck is complaining about tires? :really:

There's 100 things decidedly far LESS complex than tires that could (read: need to) be done, that have never reached the "2002 Demo stage" of your analogy; and therefore using that analogy should be dreadfully quick to do! :razz:

[col]

@Col:

...

Who the heck is complaining about tires? :really:

There's 100 things decidedly far LESS complex than tires that could (read: need to) be done, that have never reached the "2002 Demo stage" of your analogy; and therefore using that analogy should be dreadfully quick to do! :razz:

I guess from the tone of your post you were just being facetious, but here goes anyway :)
You've been around long enough to know about the LFS dev process... the 'incompatible' updates come in stages along with any physics updates... the compatible stuff came in patch X... so any other stuff I guess has to wait until all the other incompatible stuff currently in development is ready - so no matter how simple or insignificant, incompatible changes cannot be released until the non-simple very significant is ready... (that of course includes any content that may depend on engine code that is not yet in the public release). I imagine that some of the desired updates you refer to will be 'quick to do' - doesn't mean they will be 'quick to public release' though.

I'm sure you will now list a few specific features that have not been included yet that might not be incompatible.... I don't care :razz:

cheers

Col

[Hyperactive]

Well, in all honesty, there are zillions of very small features missing from ...well... everything. Lots of small things missing from LFS, lots of small things missing from your TV's remote controller (the wife-brings-you-a-beer-button), lots of small things etc...

Personally it is not the things that are missing - it is the things that are implemented. Not the small things, the big things. I have said it many times and I will repeat: it is not the development speed, it is the things that get developed. For a bigger picture I find it hard to understand why there still isn't rewindable replays, notes-tab in setups and autocross obstacles that actually work.

I guess I would need to be "registered in 2002" to understand the bigger goal. :thumb:

[Boris Lozac]

I guess I would need to be "registered in 2002" to understand the bigger goal. :thumb:

There's no room for sarcasm.. just imagine how much time consuming is to make a software like LFS? Sometimes by doing a skin or some texture work, it can last for days and that is if i have an inspiration and will to do it.. it's not everyday a sunshine day, there are days when you just don't have the will to do anything.. :shrug:
Just imagine how much trial and error Scawen has to do to make satisfiyng results? But yea, it's in our nature to always want more and i'm no different, but i think the main problem of people who start these kind of threads is that they are just not using LFS as it should be used, not exploring it hard enough, and maybe the biggest reason is lack of good online racing...
I was also in that kind of situation, i just didn't like any of the public combos out there, so i made a suggestion on our local forum, to do a different combo race every weekend, so now, i end up having the reason to drive and having people on that combo every day..
People should try organizing similiar thing, if you have a team, or a forum where your LFS countryman go, have a scheduled race every weekend, and you'll have people practing on a server, on a combo that majority voted for, and everyones happy... It's great stuff... otherwise, yea, i would be pretty bored if i had to only rely on public servers racing...

[richo]

But that is the thing - they aren't making LFS to 'make money'. It currently, apparently, covers their costs and allows them to live happily, and allows them to work at their pace. If you don't like that work ethic, then LFS isn't for you in the long term.

Living happily is all anyone can hope for...

There making it from home and when it suits, i for one cant believe there not making money on it when theres no overheads and only three ppl at the pie (probably only two really).

But back to the topic, its taking too long and there customer base is walking away which is a bloody shame.

Theres a lot of talented people out there , maybe its time for some extra hands?

[Glenn67]

But back to the topic, its taking too long and there customer base is walking away which is a bloody shame.

And you base that on what? :really:

While I can agree with you that some old timers have drifted away, there is still many that are here and active.

Also from my recolections LFS's user base is stronger than ever. Last nights peek was 1400 racers, back when I joined in 2004 a good night was 700. That tells me while some older ones may get bored an move on there's more than enough new blood to keep things going :)

[tristancliffe]

Living happily is all anyone can hope for...

There making it from home and when it suits, i for one cant believe there not making money on it when theres no overheads and only three ppl at the pie (probably only two really).

But back to the topic, its taking too long and there customer base is walking away which is a bloody shame.

Theres a lot of talented people out there , maybe its time for some extra hands?

No overheads? :really:
Customers walking away? :really:
Extra hands? :really:

You don't get LFS either do you, and you certainly don't 'understand' the developers...

[Alric]

And you base that on what? :really:

While I can agree with you that some old timers have drifted away, there is still many that are here and active.

Also from my recolections LFS's user base is stronger than ever. Last nights peek was 1400 racers, back when I joined in 2004 a good night was 700. That tells me while some older ones may get bored an move on there's more than enough new blood to keep things going :)


I guess I almost class for an "oldie" and I'm still loving LFS as much as the day I first played. I have in noway become bored. I'm just excited for the next update. :) Also I bet as soon as a new update/patch is released the "oldies" that have become bored will come flooding back. It's just human nature, some people get bored quicker than others but as soon as there is something new to try, their back. :razz:

[Glenn67]

It's just human nature, some people get bored quicker than others but as soon as there is something new to try, their back. :razz:


Thats so true :scratchch there is a couple that I bump into on each new major patch release and then never see them inbetween times :x but that's mostly because alot of the original guys don't go on public servers much anymore unless they are testing a new patch :shrug:

Good to hear from some active oldies still enjoying LFS :D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I guess from the tone of your post you were just being facetious, but here goes anyway :)

Heh, I was being semi-facetious. I don't even know myself whether I'm serious or not half the time any more. :scratchch


You've been around long enough to know about the LFS dev process...

Oh yes, I'm fully familiar with it, and for the most part I appreciate it.

...explanation of incomp changes vs release times
I'm sure you will now list a few specific features that have not been included yet that might not be incompatible.... I don't care :razz:

This is why the next patch is going to dictate a lot in terms of how much time I spend with LFS over the next year or so. There's a handful of things I won't bother listing (again) that would likely not take much time but would greatly enhance the racing experience, and I think everyone enjoys a good racing experience. Not that LFS doesn't provide that, it certainly does; but there are not enough things to consider and too many ways to exploit the shortcomings. And you were wrong, I can't think of any compatible features I'm on pins & needles for! :tilt:

Yeah, like Vic says - if you're bored of it you can take a break. Interesting attitude that is; half of my team has taken a break.

For the record as well, the rose coloured glasses about the dev process could use some polishing around here IMO: people need to realize that good support, good product, and constant development are not limited to 3 man dev teams. :rolleyes: Blizzard has hundreds of people working on World of Warcraft and the support and development are every bit as good as LFS. Content and updates are churned out at an alarming rate. It's stable, runs at 80% the FPS of LFS and uses DX9 quite well. Yes, it costs to play, boohoo & big deal. So will iRacing and all indications are that it's going to be incredible (but of course we won't know until it's out, granted).

I still love LFS's physics to death, I still drive sometimes - mostly alone or with a few active teamies. Let's not everyone pretend that it's not dragging on... and on... and on... Originally 4 stages over 1 year, remember? :D

:)

[Fabri91]

The only thing that worries me is that Scawen hasn't posted here since the 4th of October.

[AndroidXP]

No worries - it means he's deep into coding and doesn't waste any time posting here ;)

[three_jump]

yeah, no signs from scawen is usually a good sign :razz:

[GianniC]

Wish we could say the same of 3J :bigeye:

:D

[Blackout]

By the way, have you already noticed you can now see the split times of you PB? Sorry if it's old, but I just had to get it out my chest because it's so cool! And is against the nothing in a while thingy. =P

[VoiD]

noticed that a few days ago...

Just a "minor change" but very impressive and usefull :thumb:

[richo]

No overheads? :really:
Customers walking away? :really:
Extra hands? :really:

You don't get LFS either do you, and you certainly don't 'understand' the developers...


Your right i dont, i run my own business and i rent the building i work from which would you believe isn't cheap certainly not as cheap as working from home.

Walking away is probably the wrong wording but just looking at the constant "why is it taking so long" and "Whats happening" threads one has to wonder.

And yes extra hands, theres talented people in this "community" that could aid the devs with the precious.

So your probably right on all counts Tristan, i dont get it and i dont understand the developers.

I just want to purchase there product,there complete product.

Now thats enough of this subject,its getting old...

[delray25]

...its taking too long and there customer base is walking away which is a bloody shame....
Wrong, their customer base is not walking away. Some individuals are, but their customer base is growing.

...I just want to purchase there product,there complete product....
Its not complete, so you can't. Everyone knows that.

...Now thats enough of this subject,its getting old...
Wrong again, it was old when it started. No doubt, another threat of similar nature will be started soon.

...So your probably right on all counts Tristan, i dont get it and i dont understand the developers...
I agree with that. Its obvious, really.

[richo]

I must say i admire everyones loyalty and zeal, so quick to become defensive and so quick to attack anyone that has anything different to say.

[Glenn67]

I must say i admire everyones loyalty and zeal, so quick to become defensive and so quick to attack anyone that has anything different to say.

It's not a matter of who's wrong or right :shrug: the reality is your as right as i am right. It's just a different perspective.

At the end of the day it's Scavier's project and the way they choose to do it is the right way, it's their choice and they are ultimately resposible for it's success or failure not us.

Not everyone's going to groove on it but so what :x
It doesn't matter what ever you do in life there will always be someone that thinks it should be done differently, and how you choose to do something comes down to your personality and life goals.

[danowat]

I must say i admire everyones loyalty and zeal, so quick to become defensive and so quick to attack anyone that has anything different to say.

Pfff, same old "my opinion is different to yours, and because you don't think the same as me you are attacking me" BS.

Grow a freakin backbone man, opinions differ, have yours and stick by it, regardless of what other people say.

[richo]

I,m sticking with my opinion ,and standing by it .

I have a different take on this , nothing more nothing less

Just makes me laugh at the old "red is a better colour than blue" and then having a bunch of posts after that dissecting what's been said to prove that statement is wrong and the person who said it is a fool, when its nothing more than a difference of opinion.

[Californian]

Just makes me laugh at the old "red is a better colour than blue" and then having a bunch of posts after that dissecting what's been said to prove that statement is wrong and the person who said it is a fool, when its nothing more than a difference of opinion.

Amen :nod:

Yeah but I still hope they'll come up with some nice update around christmas or before that :smileypul

[col]

I,m sticking with my opinion ,and standing by it .

I have a different take on this , nothing more nothing less

Just makes me laugh at the old "red is a better colour than blue" and then having a bunch of posts after that dissecting what's been said to prove that statement is wrong and the person who said it is a fool, when its nothing more than a difference of opinion.

What a crock !

There is no difference of opinion here - just difference of attitude !

Here are the two sides of the discussion

Side 1:
"Me bored, Me want new stuff, ME WANT NEW STUFF NOW! why not me have? it not fair. you all suck, I'm leaving etc. etc."

Side 2:
"We all want improvements! HOWEVER, there are very good reasons why they take as long as they do. Here are the reasons (many valid reasons follow)"

Side 1:
"Bah, you are all fanboys, you can't take criticism etc. etc. etc. etc."

Side 2:
Pretty much rephrases what they said first time around in the forlorn hope it is absorbed and understood.

Side 3: (usually has joined the party late)
Stop arguing guys - it's just a difference of opinion.

Side 1:
"Yeh Yeh, It's just differences of opinion - I'm laughing at you Side 2 for taking this seriously!"
Side 2:
Shakes head slowly in disbelief and dispair.
------------------

Of course this is a parody, but it's close to how this discussion often pans out.

I just don't get how folks can obviously enjoy and appreciate LFS, but at the same time criticize the process that has resulted in LFS!

Many of the demanded changes to the process would damage the game and the community - the overall result would be less good.

Nobody is suggesting that it is a perfect project or a perfect development methodology - there is no such thing, but it is proving to be a very good and very successful one.
How you guys have the arrogance to think that you know better when you consider the success of the project and look at the background of the dev team is way beyond me.

If it's going too slow for you, just take a break and play something else. Most folks who are long time LFS players disappear for a while every so often, but they usually come back (heh. I raced macEST last night !) - No game, no matter how good can keep your enthusiasm at a high level for years without a break.

cheers

Col

[tristancliffe]

Indeed Col, well said.

Could Scavier develop faster with more people? Yes.
Will he get more people? No, because the whole point of LFS was to get away from development teams.
Is the number of players decreasing? No
Are the devs able to live off LFS? Yes
Will LFS continue? Yes
Will we get another patch? Yes
When? When it's ready, as always.
But I want it now? Then LFS isn't really for you is it. You bought it understanding it was one bloke coding, with a particular 'vision'.
You're all fanboys! Yes, to some extent we are, because we're attached and loyal to a product that suits us, being made in a way we think is great.
I'll go and buy xxxx instead then! Okay. See you when the patch comes out.

[SamH]

Two great posts in a row.. this thread is looking up! ;)

[Bob Smith]

Just makes me laugh at the old "red is a better colour than blue" and then having a bunch of posts after that dissecting what's been said to prove that statement is wrong and the person who said it is a fool, when its nothing more than a difference of opinion.
Rubbish. Green is clearly far superior to both...

[mongoosetierney]

Rubbish. Green is clearly far superior to both...

I must agree seen as is its my teams colours :thumb: (Green and Black that is-Not just green that WOULD be lame.)


O/T Just buy another game to keep you occupied if you cant wait 'til Scawen and Co. wave their magic wand(the same wand-all them hold on to it) and releases yet another great patch.

[JTbo]

Have you thought that there is something wrong in modern world, if company does not increase income every year it is considered bad, everything must be new, also in software constantly you need to get new thigns, if you think this by common sense it is awfully wrong and can't work forver.

That is what I think when I see such thread as this :scratchch

[Glenn67]

if you think this by common sense it is awfully wrong and can't work forver...


Your obviously old enough to remember the last recession :x :p

Thats why they call it economic cycle, business cycle, etc, etc

History always repeats :D

[Mazz4200]

Two great posts in a row..

Shame it wasn't three :p

As far as Richo is concerned, he's paid his money, he's perfectly entitled to ask the question and have an opinion. Maybe some of the replys to his posts came across as a tad aggresive, but i don't think any angst was intended towards him, or from him, right ?

Personally i have to admit that when i watch the SRT thingys, LFS can sometimes seem to be lacking a certain something when set alongside some of the "competition". From a purely asthetic point of view (and maybe a bit of romance too :really:) the new F1 1955 and 1979 mods for Rfactor look fantastic, although there's nothing about the demo that's inspired me to actually buy Rfactor as yet(find it lacking in soul) Those new mods may just sway me, dunno ?.

I think the REAL direct competition to LFS will be iRacing, if it ever materialises. Then there's the competition from other genre's, Flight Sims, FPS, RPG etc etc. But, LFS will never ever die, (as long as we have computers,) people are still playing Pacman and Sonic the Hedgehog for crying out loud !

I've said this before and i'll say it again, the Devs are simply allowing us to join in with a personal project, a hobby that turned into a viable income. I get the feeling if only a hundred people had bought licences', LFS would still be the same as it is today. The forums would'nt be as much fun, and maybe Scawen and his missus would be fixing up the bathroom in their caravan instead of their house. But, LFS is what it is, it happens when it happens and it does what it does.

For a few reasons I've not raced online for a while now, the main one being the ulcer generating/hair pulling out experience called Armed Assault, honestly, i've never been more frustrated with any game my entire life. Yet i know that LFS will always be there when i need it, it shows me how a game should be built, it's like that faithfull old Golden Retriever that will always be by your side, always gives you a warm happy soppy welcome when you "get home" and will always keep the wolves at bay.... I'm waffling again, but.........ugh bollocks, i'll shut up now :guilty:

To sum up, if anyone's not happy with the development time of LFS then go play something else, do a jigsaw puzzle, see how many jaffa cakes you can cram into your mouth (FTR 8 is the benchmark), the Devs won't mind, the game won't mind, the community won't mind. And when a new patch is released, come back, you'd be most welcome (well, most of you would :p)

[Toddshooter]

I don't want them to finish developing!! When and if they do all the people that want the latest and greatest will disappear very quickly, just like every other game out there:-( Then you will see the fan base disappear I think. There will always be a core community but all the hangers on that need new all the time will go! The way it is now keeps everyone coming back and waiting and disscussing and disscussing and disscussing!!!!!:scratchch

[JTbo]

Your obviously old enough to remember the last recession :x :p

Thats why they call it economic cycle, business cycle, etc, etc

History always repeats :D

Yep, that is how it goes, I just wish that there would be bit of more usage of that gray stuff inside heads, we could break loose from wheel of doom, but I know, we never will :D

Apartment prices did show signs in US, it is just matter of time now as oil price is hitting ceiling too, hopefully everyone has paid their loans to minimum :nod:

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I have a different take on this , nothing more nothing less

Well, this is one topic that you're not allowed to disagree or disent on this forum with out certain folks treating you like you're an ADD robot on Coffee Crisp. Expect to get condescended to for even mentioning that LFS development is becoming eternal.:x

There is no difference of opinion here - just difference of attitude !

I was under the impression that opinions led to attitudes quite often? :smileypul What a crock indeed!


Here are the two sides of the discussion

Very nice not-so-subtle condescention. You also added a 3rd side though...:razz:

How about this side: It's totally possible to support LFS and still think it's taking a long LONG time. Do you even realize that? It doesn't appear to me that you do, which is surprizing since you're an intelligent guy. This is a board that we all have the right to post what we think, feel etc (within reason) and all you're doing is undermining that.


I just don't get how folks can obviously enjoy and appreciate LFS, but at the same time criticize the process that has resulted in LFS!

Quit acting like taking 6 years for just over half a product is the only way to get a good product; because that's crap. LFS could've just as easily wound up where it is through any other process. When iRacing comes out, let's all say it's crap because more than one person developed it :rolleyes:.

Many of the demanded changes to the process would damage the game and the community - the overall result would be less good.

Omniscience must be fascinating! :tilt:

How you guys have the arrogance to think that you know better when you consider the success of the project and look at the background of the dev team is way beyond me.

First of all, I'm not demanding any changes to the process. I don't have an ultimatum to my point of view. I just think it takes too long, and that's it. I don't have any suggestion on how to change that because as you pointed out eariler; I'm well aware of how this place works. But I still have the right to think differently about it than you, and express it. The issue is you calling everyone who voices their "concerns" about the timespan immature, basically stupid, and so forth.

If it's going too slow for you, just take a break and play something else.

Ah yes, the standard reply. Well, I have, and do. Guess what? I still think the timespan is ridiculous. :D

Indeed Col, well said.

Yes he has a gift for stating the obvious, which is less than he thinks any one who is dissatisfied with the LFS development time can comprehend apparantly.


But I want it now? Then LFS isn't really for you is it. You bought it understanding it was one bloke coding, with a particular 'vision'.
You're all fanboys! Yes, to some extent we are, because we're attached and loyal to a product that suits us, being made in a way we think is great.
I'll go and buy xxxx instead then! Okay. See you when the patch comes out.

Why do you guys have to link ... "chronological displeasure (TM)" with tantrum like impatience and threatening to leave etc? :shrug:

Two great posts in a row..

Not really, just more blind accusations and vigilante justice of the protectors ;)

I don't want them to finish developing!! When and if they do all the people that want the latest and greatest will disappear very quickly, just like every other game out there.

I don't want them to "finish" either, just maybe provide something that actually affects driving (which is the point of the SIM) for more realism in the last 12 months would be dandy, if not unreasonable. False starts (and the preload to some extent) is the only thing noteworthy enough to come to mind.

The way it is now keeps everyone coming back and waiting and disscussing and disscussing and disscussing!!!!!:scratchch

Well the waiting part is right anyway. We used to have good discussions about lots of different topics but everything's been beaten to death over and over because there really isn't anything to talk about with LFS for now, which is why these threads keep coming up.

Is LFS great? Yes, physics wise.
Is it taking eons? Yes
Can anyone change that? No
Do I have a right to talk about it? Fundamentally yes; but based on this forum, no.

[Toddshooter]

Well the waiting part is right anyway. We used to have good discussions about lots of different topics but everything's been beaten to death over and over because there really isn't anything to talk about with LFS for now, which is why these threads keep coming up.

Is LFS great? Yes, physics wise.
Is it taking eons? Yes
Can anyone change that? No
Do I have a right to talk about it? Fundamentally yes; but based on this forum, no.

I for one:

A: haven't been here that long. So its mostly new to me:)
B: Like to hear everyones veiwpoint:thumb:
C:Fu*&ing love this game. Mostly for the competition, not the graphics, or physics, or tweaking setups(because I suck at it!)

[z3r0c00l]

you suck at graphics? blimey.

[Toddshooter]

you suck at graphics? blimey.
I suck at setups:) Everything else in life I'm the absolute best at!!:D

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Blimey's graphics are kind of cartoony anyway.

[col]

I was under the impression that opinions led to attitudes quite often? :smileypul What a crock indeed!

The opinion and the attitude are not (at least directly) causally linked. Sometimes it seem like they are, because a persons response is usually a combination of opinion and attitude... (so... yes, a crock, but of gold not sh1t :rolleyes2)


How about this side: It's totally possible to support LFS and still think it's taking a long LONG time.
Totally agree. Its obvious that LFS development has slowed (with caveats*) a lot in the past two years - can't argue with that, I myself only play in short bursts of a few weeks with long gaps inbetween - its been that way for years now.

* (my usual answer)... law of diminishing returns - as the game matures, each man hour will provide a smaller 'amount' of perceived improvement.

Do you even realize that? It doesn't appear to me that you do, which is surprizing since you're an intelligent guy.
Where have I stated that I don't think LFS development has taken a long time ?

This is a board that we all have the right to post what we think, feel etc (within reason) and all you're doing is undermining that.
It runs both ways... you can say what you think, I can say what I think and 'they' can say what 'they' think. Just because my comprehension of the situation is different from yours doesn't mean you are being undermined. (not that I believe for a minute that you feel so threatened that anything I could say would stop you posting)


LFS could've just as easily wound up where it is through any other process.
I disagree (what a surprise lol)
It could've been of an equivalent quality, but it would not have been the same. (I'm talking about both the game itself and the wider 'LFS Experience')


First of all, I'm not demanding any changes to the process. I don't have an ultimatum to my point of view.I just think it takes too long, and that's it. I don't have any suggestion on how to change that because as you pointed out eariler; I'm well aware of how this place works. But I still have the right to think differently about it than you, and express it. The issue is you calling everyone who voices their "concerns" about the timespan immature, basically stupid, and so forth.

hmm, I don't remember calling anyone immature and stupid...
Mind you, if you are not asking for changes, or defending the status quo, what is the point in posting on the subject other than to moan and whine like a child about it :razz:


Ah yes, the standard reply. Well, I have, and do. Guess what? I still think the timespan is ridiculous. :D

we know... lol


Yes he has a gift for stating the obvious, which is less than he thinks any one who is dissatisfied with the LFS development time can comprehend apparantly.

:hug:


Why do you guys have to link ... "chronological displeasure (TM)" with tantrum like impatience and threatening to leave etc? :shrug:



Not really, just more blind accusations and vigilante justice of the protectors ;)
:fence:
We will fight them on the beaches (of Fern Bay)


cheers

Col

[Storm_Cloud]

I'm a fanboy :)

I am concerned that Scawen might take 6 months to poduce the next patch, 90% of which is related to AI and it will be a massive disappointment as it is not something a lot of people (certainly no one that I know) are interested in.

Mind you, if he slips in a Club version of Westhill and makes a new track at South City (like SO Long but you come off the flyover earlier into a downhill hairpin - just need to remove the tyre barriers) I'd be happy for a while.

[SamH]

Not really, just more blind accusations and vigilante justice of the protectors ;)
I'm not opposed to the discussion as much as I'm simply bored by the frequency of the discussion. FTR, I'd love if changes were farmed out to us every day. It's just not a realistic desire. It's a 3-man team with a particular vision and a particular way of paying attention to detail that I'm more than fine with. That said, I've spent more time in the last year doing LFS-related things that don't involve driving in LFS, so I guess it could be argued that I'm also bored of LFS.. but I've still driven more miles in LFS over the last year than I have driven miles on the road. I agree with Tristan and Colin, but then I would, cuz I'm a fanboy and we're just robots.. ;)
Do I have a right to talk about it? Fundamentally yes; but based on this forum, no.
Sure.. but it doesn't achieve anything because there's nothing to achieve. It's not so much my fanboyism that stirs me to respond in the thread as it is, in this - the great green age of conservation - a spontaneous gag reflex manifested in resistance to the wanton wasting of energy :shy:. It's all just politics :smileypul

[marzman]

The only change is the hotlap records get removed. The MRT will still be there. The LX6 will still be there. The BF1 will still be there.

With rF2, 99% of the cars in the game won't be there, and would have to be made again, probably from scratch (apart from 3D models, but even then they might need a lot of work with a new engine).

LFS doesn't have magical powers, but the lack of modding means we don't lose out with new versions, it's only a gain.
Since you started taking rFactor and rFactormods in the discussion. A new LFS version does mean stuff will be missed. CTRA needed an update for patch X, Ghostcar , slickmod, smokemod and LFSTweak are incompatable with Patch X. It's not only the hotlaps.

[tristancliffe]

But the CTRA is not required for online racing, neither is ghostcar (a horrid mod that removes any shred of realism from hotlapping), slickmod (a hack), smokemod (a hack) and LFSTweak (a hack, only just acceptable to the devs but I think they'd rather it didn't exist).

rFactor NEEDS it's mods, because without them it's a complete and utter waste of time, with dire cars, very very few tracks etc etc.

That's the point I was making. The core essentials of LFS (all the cars, all the tracks and all the physics) remain at all times.

[bbman]

Why do you guys have to link ... "chronological displeasure (TM)" with tantrum like impatience and threatening to leave etc? :shrug:

Because it always is!

[...]I still think the timespan is ridiculous.[...]

[...]its taking too long[...]

If that aren't signs of impatience, I don't know what is... :shrug:

Bottom line is: if you want things speeded up, you're everything but patient...

At least richo is honest enough to admit his impatience...