Demo doesn't represent LFS well enough

[deggis]

Lots of people try LFS demo and they think that the game sucks. Any guesses why? Because the demo's car choices suck.

XFG, XRG and XRT have been there since the beginning... maybe those did represent LFS in S1 days but now we have a lot more interesting and faster cars. Those are maybe the most boring cars too (one reason might be that we have played with them so much in the demo). Some people might even think that LFS is some kind of "Gran Turismo clone" with just regular saloon cars.

Of course the devs don't want that the demo "shows too much" but with these cars - it doesn't represent the wide collection of cars that LFS really has. My own suggestion is that XFG and XRG should stay but XRT should be replaced by some GTR car (maybe XRR). Now it would also have a car with slicks. And XRT makes XRG a bit useless.

If the demo car choices are not going to change I think it should have stupid "BUY THE LICENCE NOW!" screens when quitting. At least then people would know that LFS offers fast race-cars too and not just slow runabouts.

There's nothing wrong with the Blackwood GP track but I think it's not the best "first track to drive".

I have said many times to people that whole version of LFS is a different game than the demo. Actually I wasn't interested in LFS until I drooled those GTR screenshots on the web page.

[KiDCoDEa]

i dunno what other demo people play for years.
i said years, not months, not weeks, not days, not hours.
when i play a demo for a couple of hours till i finish it its usually a great game. lfs is something else, much beyond.

[felplacerad]

yeah some nagscreens with screenshots of the s2 content would be great,
however if you replace the lets say XRT with XRR, people would just download the old (XRT) version of the demo and unzip next to the new (XRR) one. wee, 4 cars ...

Maybe the cars could be exchanged in the first release of the s3 demo, where there'll be a bigger difference.

[avih]

hmm.. now that there are nice cars around, I was thinking maybe the demo should have GTI, FZ50 and MRT5 (as the only cars)? these cars demonstrate the different kinds of physics and car variations that LFS has. It would leave much to be desired IMHO which is what the demo should do IMHO. I think this selection of cars represents LFS better than the current selection.

[AndroidXP]

Make S2 demos/replays be viewable with demo liscenses and include some hot races as a "preview of S2 content". Maybe use some community help to create those demos?

Whatever, we really need some "what do I miss out?" button that shows these demos, or maybe even better: sort of a demo collage, showing the best moments of several races in all car classes. Why demo? Because a video is 1) big, and 2) pretty unpersonal. With a demo you can experience everything first hand - you can see the physics engine working live.


What we do NOT need is different demo content. Seriously, people are cheap bastards and already playing this demo for years. Giving them "food" to enjoy the demo even more (and therefore not buy S2)? Sorry but no.

I agree that the presentation of S2 content is poor, but giving the demo players even MORE for FREE is a big fat NO

[KTy]

You don't get it...:pillepall

You're not on the same wavelength :D as the devs are...

When I first tried LFS in june 2003, the first beta, I took the GTI for a lap on BL, and there couldn't be any misunderstanding... The car handling was amazing :nod:, physics was one of the best, graphics were quite poor, but good enough to have a real *sim* experience... that's what count ! :smileypul

And still today, as I play from time to time, I really enjoy driving the small cars because that's what I know and that's how my car *would* react...

Did you chek GTR demo ?:scratchch Maybe it suites you best ;) :D

But, don't get me wrong, I understand that what you're asking for is for the "good" of LFS... But I would prefer that all the sim-racer join, not all the game-racer...

[Hyperactive]

There are 3 cars, 4 tracks (rallycross and normal and the reversed ones). There is unlimited offline and online play, no time or lap limits. Not sure, pitstops and all other stuff too.

The choise of cars has been done a long ago and therefore it is the 3 cars. Maybe some slicks car but which? Maybe the biggest thing the demo players worry about S2 is the tire model? Do the slick tire cars slide all the time as the xrt does (no)...

The current set: XFG, XRG and XRT is ok. Though I can't find any use for the XRG, except for the lustg.. :x

OT: hmm, does the slickmod work with demo? If yes, there is a racecar - XRTs :) (s for slicks)

[deggis]

Thanks for so many replies in so little time... :) A comment from the devs would be good. I think this is a bigger thing than it looks like. Demo is the thing that gives the first impression for everyone.

I agree that the presentation of S2 content is poor, but giving the demo players even MORE for FREE is a big fat NO
Good point but it should be done somehow incompatible with the previous version of demo. But if someone hacks it so what? Isn't it important to get more people buy LFS? With the current car set lots of people (NOT everyone) doesn't find it interesting enough. If they did they would probably consider getting the licence.

When I first tried LFS in june 2003, the first beta, I took the GTI for a lap on BL, and there couldn't be any misunderstanding... The car handling was amazing :nod:, physics was one of the best, graphics were quite poor, but good enough to have a real *sim* experience... that's what count ! :smileypul
Indeed, back in JUNE 2003... there wasn't GTR cars, there wasn't S2. As I said the car choices have been there since the beginning and they where representative in S1 days but not anymore.

Did you chek GTR demo ?:scratchch Maybe it suites you best ;) :D
Huh? Maybe you got it wrong. I am S2 licensed. :)

There are 3 cars, 4 tracks (rallycross and normal and the reversed ones). There is unlimited offline and online play, no time or lap limits. Not sure, pitstops and all other stuff too.
Those numbers look good (at least when comparing to some commercial game's demos with time limits) but simply those doesn't represent the current WIDE selection of cars.

[Hyperactive]

I really wouldn't like to give any of the GTR cars away for free since they are the things that most people want to drive and that's why they buy the lisence. I bought the game because of them too. (there isn't any other good simulator with these cars imho :)) Well, let's give the FXR :D (not)

But the people thinking about buying the S2 have to make the decision without any specific knowledge about the cars, since there are no slick tire cars in demo. And these cars do behave differently. Maybe XRR with 100hp less power...no, a bad idea, I'd like to drive that too :)

[Theafro]

i think the biggest problem with the demo is the attitude of a lot of racers out there. i remember (long long ago) my shock at how clean and adult the licenced servers were. that was simply due to the completely different atmosphere of demo servers, i really can't race on demo servers anymore, the behavior is shocking sometimes. (ok ok i'm ranting)

i would suggest removing the XRT from the lineup altogether as if you've got the skills to drive it fast, you'll probably be playing for at least a few months anyhow.

it's the best demo i've ever played (of any game anywhere) and it certainly is the thing that sells most licences. BUT as most of you know, a LOT of people are taking the piss. people do need to know how much better off they'll be if they'd bought a licence, there's quite a bit of misunderstanding about what you actually get for you're money, (and i don't mean cars and tracks, i mean PROPER RACING)

[tinyk]

My guess is most people downloading the demo are getting it from the main LFS site. If so then they're already being exposed to the fact that there are more cars and tracks if they buy a license. :)

Even though I have fun driving the MRT most new racers are kb or mouse drivers. Trying to drive the MRT with them can be a bit frustrating and maybe make LFS less appealing to them. :)

The car and track choices that are currently with the demo version of the game are perfect because they allow drivers of any skill level to be able to drive in a short period of time. I didn't say they'd be wr holders or that they wouldn't wreck.... but they will be able to drive those loads easier than some of the other cars on their first try. :)

As far as the track/car combo getting old or boring... if that was true... why do so many S2 drivers go back to demo servers sometimes to race sometimes? :shrug: :)

I think if I were given the choice to add any car to demo... the only one I'd maybe add is the UF1000 simply because it's cute and easy for first time drivers to handle. :shy: :)

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~

[tristancliffe]

Maybe a baby formula car - about the same lap times as the XRG, but slicks and low weight/CoG. But not wings, and not much performance. Oh, and make it really fragile too, so that they HAVE to race cleanly...

It's got to be good enough to make it enjoyable and usable, but slow and frustrating enough to try to get people to pay for a better version - perhaps the same car but with a touch more power and/or wings.

Just a thought :S

[5th Earth]

If the idea is to give people a taste of the slick-tire cars, then I think the MRT is the way to go. The GTR cars for the most part just feel like more powerful, better-gripping ersions of their stock counterparts, while the MRT has a very unique handling style. At the same time, the MRT is very poorly suited to racing on Blackwood--long straight+low top speed=frustration. In other words, people can get a taste of the high performance capabilities of the other cars in LFS without being able to fully enjoy them.

I agree with the suggestion that the selection of cars be changed to XFG, FZ5, and MRT. I think this selection gives a much more representative range of what the game is like at this point--the classic low-power class, the high-performance street class, and the crazy slick tired cars.

You still have a very limited choice of tracks (compared to how many there are in the full version), and the MRT on blackwood, as mentioned, gets frustrating after a while. I admit that this version of the demo would be "better" than the current one, but S2 is better than S1, and we want people to know that.

[deggis]

it's the best demo i've ever played (of any game anywhere) and it certainly is the thing that sells most licences.
Not a straight reply to what you said but I want to say this: A perfect demo gives you a taste and an example of what the full version offers. LFS demo doesn't do that because the faster cars are a whole another world. I don't mean it's a bad demo but it would be much more representative. (Goes a bit off topic but the best demo I've played is Half-Life Uplink because it had a whole new level specially made for that demo. It brilliantly summed up the diversity of the full version into a short level.)

BUT as most of you know, a LOT of people are taking the piss. people do need to know how much better off they'll be if they'd bought a licence, there's quite a bit of misunderstanding about what you actually get for you're money, (and i don't mean cars and tracks, i mean PROPER RACING)
Well that's a problem in any multiplayer demo.

[XCNuse]

Maybe a baby formula car - about the same lap times as the XRG, but slicks and low weight/CoG. But not wings, and not much performance. Oh, and make it really fragile too, so that they HAVE to race cleanly...

something like that little formula car in rFactor?

http://www.bhmotorsports.com/sims/RFAC/screenshots/89.jpg

possibly downsized slightly more though would be nicer, that one looks similar to the FOX size

[tristancliffe]

I was thinking

This (http://www.jamun-racing.co.uk/Images/cd1.jpg)

[avih]

Baby formula car IS the MRT ;)
And oh my, we've had SO much fun with the MRT on blackwood. I just made it sub 1.25 when s2 demo came out ;) it would definately make one desperately wanting to try the FOX and FO8 :)

[Bob Smith]

I think there's two ways to look at this:

1) The XFG and XRG are good, but the XRT could be replaced with something a little more different to show the diversity and different handling characterisitics on offer. Thus tempting more people to buy the game. It however is essentially making the demo better, which obviously has a flip side.

2) None of the cool cars are in the demo, I remember from playing lots of shareware games 10 years ago that if the game was fun, but all the coolest stuff was only in the full game, man did I want it! But then I was only 10, and easily persuaded at that age (not any more! :p).

[XCNuse]

Baby formula car IS the MRT ;)
And oh my, we've had SO much fun with the MRT on blackwood. I just made it sub 1.25 when s2 demo came out ;) it would definately make one desperately wanting to try the FOX and FO8 :)
ya but the MRT is a real car.. you should have to pay to be able to race the MRT

-so said tristan ;)

[Stellios]

I think the demo is fine personally, although i would admit, a faster car would have been nice, but that would stop peopel from buying it. I played the demo for 2 years before investing in S2, althoguh that was mainly because i had no one to race with.

[ysu]

I vote (if it matters at all) for no more demo content
but the next patch with the AI fix, and tyre fix would be nice.

those who find the demo boring are cheapskates anyway. Those who're newcommers will find the ai unplayable and the online races dirty on demo servers.

These are the problems - IMHO - not the content. The content is generous for a demo.

[Hyperactive]

If there is a need for some kind of car in the demo, it certainly is a car with slicks = a race car. Maybe give the UFR? Sure, a fwd, but who said it must be rwd? So then we had 2 fwd and 2 rwd cars... Maybe giving the MRT would make the car more popular as there are hardly any servers running it? Imho, replacing the XRT with FZ5 or other would do no good as the car is pretty much the same as the XRT plus some more power...

If I could redo the whole demo car system:
- RB4 - 4 wheel drive rallycross car
- XRT - powerful rwd car
- UFR - fwd race car

Or not...

[B2B@300]

I vote (if it matters at all) for no more demo content
but the next patch with the AI fix, and tyre fix would be nice.

those who find the demo boring are cheapskates anyway. Those who're newcommers will find the ai unplayable and the online races dirty on demo servers.

These are the problems - IMHO - not the content. The content is generous for a demo.

:iagree: Most people I know (personally) who race or have raced in real life have negative comments about the known issues of AI awareness and the tyre situation not being quite right (i.e. recovery from spin and slow speed grip) they generally are very positive about all other aspects of the sim :nod: .. so getting the AI and tyre model up to a little higher level would do alot more for the sim than more content in the demo mode imo (and that is the course I believe the developers are going in anyways)

One idea that was mentioned earlier in the thread which I think would aid greatly in the maketing of the product is being able to view S2 content replays, even if it's only a selection of replays the developers choose :tilt:

[Gunn]

Lots of people try LFS demo and they think that the game sucks.How could they think that? I don't believe they can. The demo I played several years ago wasn't one hundredth as good as the current demo, yet even back then it was obvious where LFS was going. Anyone trying the current demo will be struck almost immediately by the awesome physics and car behaviour. It only takes a couple of laps to see what this sim promises. Anything beyond is a free ride. And, apparently, an infinitely enjoyable one to many people.

[deggis]

How could they think that? I don't believe they can.
I don't mean everyone thinks that way but still too many. I know some people who have played the demo and they think LFS "simulates driving on ice". The problem is that they just don't believe full version is better. I bet they would change their opinion if they had a chance to test it with better cars with slicks.

[mrodgers]

My thoughts on new racers and the demo...... I download the demo after oogling all over the site at the screenshots. I've seen the shots of Aston and Kyoto with the GTR cars. I play the demo for the first time and like many other's I fall in love with it and Blackwood track. I play and I play and I play, after all, it is unlimited time. The GTi is a blast in close racing, the GT is a bit tougher to get a hold of, the GTT is just blazingly fast and uncontrollable. But I've settled on racing the GTi over and over again in close racing. Finally I'm bored with Blackwood and the same thing and remember all the screenshots I saw of the S2 content. By now I've driven the GTi so much, that I've forgotten about the GTT and how I hated the "fast" car. I have to buy S2 because I really want a piece of those GTR cars, especially the FZR!! It is just so sexy!! I buy my S2 license because I just have to.

Now, I've been licensed since the beginning of S2. But the above was me back in February when I found S1 demo for the first time. I tried it and hated the GTT car. It was too fast and uncontrollable. When S2 demo was released and the screenshots appeared, I oogled over them constantly. I was a dedicated GTi racer, and almost perfected Blackwood in it. I'd say I was the slow of the fast, back when 1:35's were fast. Now I have been racing S2 for, what, 5 months? Racer's in the US are dwindling down and recently I've jumped into demo as there are 3 times the servers with racers as on licensed. I thought I'd try out the GTT as I'm now use to the FZR and, wow, that car is boringly slow to me. I can't believe I had such a hard time with it before. This weekend I've been racing the GTi in the demo and it has been the best racing I've experienced for a long time. Swapping places in a pack of 5 cars back and forth for 5 laps, running 2 wide into the corners, little bit of bumping and rubbing, but no one booting eachother off the track. Great, clean, close racing. No elitists ramming you out of the way because "you should get out of my way, I am faster than you!"

I think the demo is perfect just the way it is!

[Racer Y]

I agree with Gunn and Mr Rodgers.
Besides, just how much would having a faster, harder to control car
do for reducing the wreckers, the moaners and the instant booters?
I don't see how doing anything else to the demo would do anything
besides make it less than what it is now.

[Gabkicks]

most of the people who would buy lfs at this time have already gotten it. sure other less realistic games have much faster cars in their demos but look at how crazy people are with the slow cars. with faster cars.... well other people have already said it so i'll be quiet.:x

i'm sure more will buy it as word spreads and the game is further refined. Ignoring the idiot drivers i think the demo is enough to get anyone with half a brain to buy the game eventually.

[colcob]

Personally, I think that if someone is considering a purchase of S2, then they probably want to drive race cars with slicks. At the moment, the LFS Devs are basically asking them to take it on trust that the physics and handling of the race cars and slick tyres meet there expectations.

This is not so much of a problem when trying to attract 'new' sim racers, but if they want to convert serious sim racers from other sims, then they need to give some kind of demo of the serious race cars.

It could easily be implemented as an offline only car (after the ai patch though), or if the actual demo cars themselves were to change, you would just make it an incompatible patch and have the master server refuse old patch connections after a while with a message to download the latest patch form liveforspeed.net.

[AndroidXP]

Yeah I think that's also an acceptable idea. An offline only slick car would shutup all these "I need a car with slicks to be convinced to buy LFS" whiners (:p) yet it wouldn't give them endless hours of fun, which is only archievable online (even with improved AI, after some while you'd simply know all tricks to beat them)

[Chaos]

It could easily be implemented as an offline only car
I like this idea! Leave the demo cars as they are now, but add one with slicks for offline mode only...

[mrodgers]

Good point on the attracting simmer's from other good sims, like NR2003 and GPL (they are still going strong after all this time). Going from an 800 hp stockcar in NR2k3 to a little hatchback road car in LFS would be like me trying to ride a 40 mph scooter to work after riding my 0-60 in less than 5 second bike. An offline only GTR car would be good to give an idea of how the slick tire cars run.

[Fonnybone]

Ok, i didn't read all posts so i'll probably repeat some things...

Like Kid Codea wrote, i was there in the beginning of LFS (as was he i
believe), and DID play the 'demo' for years, that's Blackwood only, with
the 3 base cars. Mind you, we raced much more on the Rallycross tracks
back then so once the reversed track idea made it in the game, we had 4
configs for one track and the autocross parking lot. Each feeling different enough
not to seem like it's always the same track. I considered the beta demo a 'full'
game for quite some time. Again, like Kid said, i don't know of any other
demo that i have spend SO much time playing.

Of course, being the one to have started LFSTweak (PowerMOD back
then...) , i can't deny i wasn't quite satisfied...but that's me, i'm NEVER
satisfied :p Any other game wouldn't have changed that. Like that tweak
site's slogan goes : "If it ain't broke, Tweak it!". That's my motto.

One of the main thing that attracted me to LFS besides the physics is the
online gaming, i just loved how simple and effective it was. Those things
(physics and online racing) are all part of the demo so the genuine LFS
experience is more then well defined in the demo, in fact, i'd go as far as
saying S1-S2 are only car&track add-ons. The demo has all what the 'full'
game has except maybe that autocross editor, but between you and me,
no one is buying S1-S2 just because there's an autocross editor ;)

[avih]

hehe, I remember that when I 1st got S1 demo and played the different tracks, it took me a lap or two to understand that I'm driving a reverse of the "normal" track :)

[96 GTS]

The demo has all what the 'full'
game has except maybe that autocross editor, but between you and me,
no one is buying S1-S2 just because there's an autocross editor ;)
Not surprisingly, lots of SCCA guys think that LFS is THE definitive Solo II simulator, so there are people that love the autocross part :)

[Fordman]

Well here is a comment, taken from the MPH Show thread, which will show you that the Demo does infact do justice for LFS.

Enjoy

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=42437#post42437

Fordie

[Fonnybone]

Well here is a comment, taken from the MPH Show thread, which will show you that the Demo does infact do justice for LFS.
Enjoy

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=42437#post42437
Fordie

Hehe, yeah, but he also says this:

"The seat is an excelent promotional tool..." ;)

[KiDCoDEa]

bah, u could promo lfs in this and it would still sell.

http://www.studio-international.co.uk/studio-images/pain/chair_b.jpg

[tristancliffe]

What would sell, the seat or LFS? :p

Surely the user would be seriously injured, or dead.

[Kronzky]

After trying the demo for a week or so I was ready to give up on it because the default car setups were just so unrealistic. (I was trying it with wheel & pedals, and had about 10 years of real-life race experience.)

Only the fact that there was this huge online community made me think there's more to this game than the demo conveys. And then, after finding a realistic setup, I realized *why* there was this big fuzz about this game and I ended up buying it within days.

So, I think, it is absolutely crucial to have the BEST POSSIBLE (i.e. realistic) default setups for the demo cars! People who sample a game will most likely not hunt through dozens of sites to finally find a setup that behaves like a real car. They give it a shot, it feels weird, and they drop it.

I don't find it very crucial that there should be 'real' race cars in the demo. After all, most people will have never driven one anyway. So there would be no way for them to tell what's realistic and what isn't anyway. But most will have driven cars like the XFG before, and will notice right away if something feels wrong, and judge the demo accordingly.

[Lible]

Easy Race sets :thumb:

[Hyperactive]

This is a very good point. The default setups do suck.

Hmm. I don't think the XRT setups are too bad imho. And none of the "demo setups". I made some (small)modifications to the race_1 and raced a lot with it in the demo. Could do 1:25.xx times with bad driving :) It is very neutral setup, so you don't need to throw the car into the turns, maybe too much to control with the throttle but not too bad. :D

But I'd defenetely like to see tha Bob's easy race setups (and drag sets too?) bundled in LFS download. For the S2 cars the default setups are just too hard to drive.

Hmm, gotta go and drive some XRT laps :P

[Bob Smith]

But I'd defenetely like to see tha Bob's easy race setups (and drag sets too?) bundled in LFS download. For the S2 cars the default setups are just too hard to drive.
Heh, people keep saying this, and as I remember that was even a poll for it and most people said yes. It seems the devs aren't convinced yet though. Either that or they have a contract with whoever made the default sets.
Actually who did make the default sets? They've certainly had some thought put into them, but certainly not enough.
Oh I don't think it would be a good idea to put the drag sets in LFS by default, that would be making LFS seem more serious about dragging that it really is. Road Going setups could be fun though. :D

[colcob]

The default sets and setup value limits are mostly procedurally generated from the car parameters. Which is why they automatically change when LFSTweak changes the cars. It's also why there are no .set files for the default sets.

It's also why they suck. :)

I did some analysis on them once, way back when, and came up with a set of values that the car mass is multiplied by to give you the default set. parameters.

Its a good idea when you are developing different cars as it means you have instant baseline setups, but its a bad idea for producing actual driveable setups for general use.

[mrbogeyman]

I dont agree with adding more content.

I was easily hooked after playing the LFS demo.
I WAS NOT hooked after playing the GTR demo which included some GT cars. (but maybe its because im practically a fanboy :P )

But i totally agree about the setups.

Each car should be supplied with a number of setups, because a good setup is a subjective opinion. Bobs easy race setups could be a good start, but these should be paired up with more difficult (read faster) setups. This would give a choice and a natural progression for new users to advance from one set to another once a car has been 'learned'.

However, this probably isnt such a good idea at the moment. With LFS being updated all the time, physics changes will soon render any setups useless. I suspect the devs would employ a setup guru to provide a range of setups to supply with LFS when S2 (at the earliest) gets its final updates. If not with S2 then finally with S3.

Barring supplying setups with LFS, the next best option would be to supply a 'HELP' button underneath the setups bar in the garage to provide people with a link to the INFERNO website or any other setup pages. Or at the least to indicate that there are other pre-made setups out there. An indication should also be made that people can send you setups online. Sometimes when i offer someone a setup online they respond with "how do i do that?" Some first time users wont have a clue that they can even adjust or download new setups as they assume you just get in and drive.

I guess the biggest factor is that the defualt setups shouldnt put people off! And that they should be made aware that if they dont like a setup, they can get more easily.

[deggis]

Seems like most of you doesn't agree with me. :(

These "I was hooked right away when I played the demo" examples are useless because we are all LFS fanboys. You forget that most the players who didn't hook up right away are not here to say that. There are lots of them (who play sims, not some stupid arcade lamers). I still think that there would be a concrete change in their opinion if they had a chance to test LFS with better cars, as they think the road cars in the demo are simulating driving on ice. Blah, I'll just keep repeating this...

Good point about the demo setups, though.

[B2B@300]

Seems like most of you doesn't agree with me. :(

These "I was hooked right away when I played the demo" examples are useless because we are all LFS fanboys. You forget that most the players who didn't hook up right away are not here to say that. There are lots of them (who play sims, not some stupid arcade lamers). I still think that there would be a concrete change in their opinion if they had a chance to test LFS with better cars, as they think the road cars in the demo are simulating driving on ice. Blah, I'll just keep repeating this...

Good point about the demo setups, though.

Which goes back to the tyre model still needs some tweaking and or better setups supplied with the demo :shrug: If as has been metioned before the car feels right to prospective buyers they will want the faster cars as well :smileypul and therefore buy the S2 license immediately :scratchch but if they are left with some nagging doughts they will post pone there discision to buy..
Those of us who have bought it, have bought it because we are willing to look past the current flaws realising that the other aspects of the sim more than make up for it.. :tilt: and see the ongoing development of the game as a major plus :D it can only get better..

[farcar]

Having not played a racing sim for several years, I played the LFS demo offline for about an hour, and bought a licence that afternoon. If only everyone was like me :D . The servers would be full and the Devs; rich bastards! I might be a bit of a fanboy now, but wasn't when I forked over my 'hard earned'.

Regarding the demo:

Only one track should be availabe, and no GTR or formula cars.
But, PLEASE get rid of the XR GT Turbo. It is far too inaccessible for demo racers and I'd imagine it would be turning people off in droves.

Leave the XF GTI, it's great, and add the FXO Turbo. It's much easier to drive, and would make for some great racing on the demo servers.

Might as well leave the XR GT in there for the drifters, but it's quite a pointless car otherwise. ;)

[cannonfodder]

Only one track should be availabe, and no GTR or formula cars.
But, PLEASE get rid of the XR GT Turbo. It is far too inaccessible for demo racers and I'd imagine it would be turning people off in droves.

I think I could agree with this. Even if nothing is added, maybe the demo would be better without the turbo. It's simply too much to handle for newbies, and with the current tire model issues combined with the lackluster default setups, it gives a bad impression.

Might as well leave the XR GT in there for the drifters, but it's quite a pointless car otherwise. ;)
It's not pointless. FWD and RWD feel different enough to require at least one of each.

[Fonnybone]

Just to continue on the setup thing. This has been said for a while now.

- LFS needs 'better' default setups

As noble as it sounds, it doesn't seem that simple. There are basic
problems that make that close to impossible.

First is the controller, depending if one uses a wheel, analog gamepad,
mouse or keyboard (or joystick, or full simulator), the 'better' part will
never be defined. There are basic difference between controllers that
make it hard to find an optimal setup for all. Either there's a few base
setups, or there's one that compromises for the sake of homogeneity.
Either way, people will complain and STILL say the base setups are
innadequate.

Another factor to consider is the various driving styles, skills and experience.
Often, faster or more experienced drivers tend to have more nervous setups that
beginner's might find impossible to drive, while a 'good' n00b setup would probably
understeer a lot and not be a good base for competitive laptimes.

There are surely other things, but the 2 things i mentionned above are
important enough imo.

What i don't understand as much is why it can't be the community that
provides these setups. For example, BobSmith could make some good base
setups for wheels (im assuming thats what he uses..), while someone
else could make base keyboard setups. We could test them out and agree
on the best and post them in a sticky in the beginner forum. I don't see
what's stopping anyone from doing that. It MUST be part of LFS ?!

[Shotglass]

i think bobs road going setups (without the passenger) should become the default setups (maybe after stiffening the suspension a bit for the sportscars)
as far as i can tell they are easy to drive with any controller type and they come with that wow effect as the cars feel exactly like in real life

then for the advanced drivers (or at least those that got hooked by how real the physics engine feels) include the easy race setups so beginners can get a first few fast laps and learn to be competitive online

and then the race1 setups as a good fast baseline setup for the skilled driver


on topic:
id say dump the xrt and include an offline only slicked downforce car (maybe the fox as its insanely fun and i belive anybody who takes it for a ride will want to race these online)

[mrodgers]

(maybe the fox as its insanely fun and i belive anybody who takes it for a ride will want to race these online)
Not everyone :nol2: !!

[AndroidXP]

Yeah, some people might prefer to "race" it against the "ingenious" AI*.

* Artificial Incompetence

[deggis]

Not everyone :nol2: !!
Indeed. FO8 and FOX couldn't be more boring. Of course this is only my opinion.

ps. Maybe that's because I'm not interested in F1 series IRL anymore (I used to be). :)

[Hyperactive]

I think that the base setups should be some much oversteery for all cars. But I'd also want some more neutral and oversteery ones too. Like the Nascar 2003 has symmetric, quali and fast setups. Why do I want so many different kind of setups? I raced some time ago in BL1 with the fzr using the flotch's setup and I really couldn't drive very fast with it. Best times were little over 1:10. Then I switched to <someone>'s fe5 setup and it was right from the beginning better for me. Have done some 1:08s with that one. I's quite oversteery but for me it suits perfectly.

So what I'm saying is that the good setup can mean a lot different things for most people. Maybe if we ask the devs about it and make a package for them so that they don't need to hunt down every set individually. We could also make a newbie setup pack including every setup needed for demo and S2.

But what to put in? Here's my list:
- Bob's easy race
- Bob's road going
- oversteery race setup
- neutral race setup

And I don't think we need setups for every track/car, just for the most common ones.

[Fetzo]

i think, it is good to have the gtt in the demo. putting such a boring car like the fxo in would definately not REPRESENT lfs.

i think it's nice for demo racers to have a challenging car.




.....and i wonder why the fxo is still that fast. it seems the alpha testers of s2 haven't driven a single race in the tbo class :/. the balance is still terrible.

[Hyperactive]

And forgot to say. Nevah evah remove the XRT from the demo. At least for me it was the only car I drove :D Making XRG the most powerful car in the demo having "only" 140hp would not make it believable to have 500hp cars driveable in full S2.

[AndroidXP]

I don't think we need that many setups, just put in Bob's Road Going instead of the auto-generated (!) "hard track" and the Easy Race ones in a new "default" class, maybe called "Race" or something. No need for different types of setups IMO, for once you only have the three demo cars, and second if someone wants a special setup they should make it themselves. We simply need EASY to drive/race setups for the Beginners. Something that doesn't make them spin at the first corner. Something that makes them stick to LFS instead of labelling it as "unrealistic crap".

[Bob Smith]

From what I can tell, the hard track/default setups are not generated, only the slider limits are. I assume they are just hard coded in to the exe instead of saved in a seperate file. That would make sense, as I have similar measures in GRC (that way if the program can't find any seperate files, it still has usable values to work with).

[Racer Y]

Hi...... I really don't think you could do much more for the demo.
And maybe it's because I only had the option of three cars and blackwood that I think that's how all others should get the demo. But the idea of
additional set ups would be a great idea. If I had to knock anything about
LFS it would be those default set ups. I guess the ones that come with alpha are probably better than the old S-1 demo, but I wouldn't really know as I was already a wheel user when alpha came out and there were set-ups being tossed around as well.

I like the chair idea though...