an impartial view

[v4forlife]

ok, i need help with something. im picking the pairings for a race, but want it to be as impartial as it can be, so im getting someone who dont have anything to do with the cup.

if you can help, itll be maybe 5 mins, then pm me and ill tell you how it goes.

thanks
v4

[ayrton senna 87]

i can help

BTW, what is it?

[v4forlife]

well, i need someone to pick, at random, number, which in turn represent people in this cup. so that its totally random, and not fixed

[ayrton senna 87]

28

[v4forlife]

will, u got mail....well a pm

[Fordman]

http://www.mdani.demon.co.uk/para/random.htm

How about that. A Random Number Generator. Cannot get anymore random than the Internet

[v4forlife]

dammit, i wish i knew about that, oh well, tis done now

[Mikkel Petersen]

I would have said, 42 - the answer to everything! :shy:

[(SaM)]

Never let a human being make random numbers, everyone has a preference for certain numbers, just because people have souls. CPUs dont have souls, let a computer do a random number.

12
57
19
70
86
71
68
70
89
12
35
04

Those are computer generated numbers. 100% random.

[tristancliffe]

But isn't the random number generator built using an algorithm, which is potentially workoutable...

Computers can't do real random...

[Shotglass]

But isn't the random number generator built using an algorithm, which is potentially workoutable...

Computers can't do real random...

jup and most/all algorithms that generate pseudo random numbers will never perfectly match a uniform distribution

[(SaM)]

Yea, that's true, computers only know logic and calculate on formulas, they dont know random, nor chaos. 99% random then.
Still beats people making 'random' numbers.

[L(Oo)ney]

Ok, i see you're done, but heres some numbers anyway..

4 8 15 16 23 42.

Just dont use them on the lottery or you'll open the box, and bad things will happen to those around you. :twitch:

[Tweaker]

We could get more confusing and choose the number 0!!!!

[NotAnIllusion]

Ok, i see you're done, but heres some numbers anyway..

4 8 15 16 23 42.

Just dont use them on the lottery or you'll open the box, and bad things will happen to those around you. :twitch:

Lol or end up typing them on ur PC every couple of hours for decades.. watch out, 42 is evil, Evil I tell you!! :tilt:

[ysu]

I can't believe you guys can't create a random number...have you forgotten dice completely? ;-)
throw a couple of rolls with d100 and you're good :-)
that'll be as random as possible, no algorithms, no human factor - unless the dice are leaded :-)

[Tweaker]

But surely the result of the dice depends on the human? :D

lol how deep can we get on this subject :zombie:

[Shotglass]

lol how deep can we get on this subject :zombie:

pretty deep ... i guess the only way to creat a random number is to find a chaotic process whos chaotic nature is a direct cause of some quantumphysical event that has equiprobable outcomes ... apart from that i cant see any easy ways to create a truly redundancy free sequence

[Julppu]

pretty deep ... i guess the only way to creat a random number is to find a chaotic process whos chaotic nature is a direct cause of some quantumphysical event that has equiprobable outcomes ... apart from that i cant see any easy ways to create a truly redundancy free sequence
Krhmm... chaos isn't actually random. It just might be complex enough :D

Human is as good source of random as anything else, if the method of selecting numbers isn't known. But very true, this gets very easily "deep". Been studying it for couple of years now... :tilt: Cyco me..:pillepall


Oh, one more thing about chaos. It's generally generated with mathematical functions so it's predictable kind of same way as any outcome from mathematical function with given input.

[Astro [ BJRL ]]

In my humble opinion thre is no such thing as a random number. And, when the number is picked, it suddenly is 'special'.

[skiingman]

pretty deep ... i guess the only way to creat a random number is to find a chaotic process whos chaotic nature is a direct cause of some quantumphysical event that has equiprobable outcomes ... apart from that i cant see any easy ways to create a truly redundancy free sequence

Thermal noise is used in natural ways to create natural noise in hardware which is then translated into random numbers. This is the only way to do real random with a computer that I've seen used.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6289&lpos=home2

Someday those chips will come down to, say, the price of a cheap audio chip, and it will become a common feature in computers.

[v4forlife]

ha ha ha, all i wanted was a quick hand, and i get a 20 post thread, lol

[Barroso]

haha just throw some numbered papers inside a bag :P

[Julppu]

ha ha ha, all i wanted was a quick hand, and i get a 20 post thread, lol

The geek factor :thumb:

:D

[ysu]

haha just throw some numbered papers inside a bag :P
...and then find a random person to draw one! :-)

[Shotglass]

Krhmm... chaos isn't actually random. It just might be complex enough :D

Oh, one more thing about chaos. It's generally generated with mathematical functions so it's predictable kind of same way as any outcome from mathematical function with given input.

if you are able to break a chaotic system down to the quantum physics that influence its behaviour it will get truly random (at least with our current knowledge of physics which either means that the univers itself is truly random or that quantum theory itself is a chaotic system whos input variables we can neither measure nor do we even know which one those might be)

Thermal noise is used in natural ways to create natural noise in hardware which is then translated into random numbers. This is the only way to do real random with a computer that I've seen used.

any real world noise is by its very nature not perfectly random

[mkinnov8]

er... wierd people... i think its done now! lol

[skiingman]

any real world noise is by its very nature not perfectly random

Its as random as random can get, and a lot more random than pseudorandom generators.

[Tweaker]

pretty deep ... i guess the only way to creat a random number is to find a chaotic process whos chaotic nature is a direct cause of some quantumphysical event that has equiprobable outcomes ... apart from that i cant see any easy ways to create a truly redundancy free sequence
ROFL, I dunno why, but this made me laugh a good one today :D :thumb:

[robt]

is this for what i think it is. if so, 14 and 15 :D lol

[v4forlife]

you have no clue rob, ha ha ha. its a big surprise

[Shotglass]

Its as random as random can get, and a lot more random than pseudorandom generators.

not necessarily ... using a pseudorandom generator you can easily create true discrete time white gaussion noise which is as random as it gets ... but for obvious reason such noise doesnt exist in the real (continuous time) world

[Infiniti]

...and then find a random person to draw one! :-)
Aww but how random can a person be, once again it can be human preference :scratchch Why? because you maybe drawn to more females, people with light eyes, fair skin, hair color, curves.. haha way to deep but anyways:pillepall

[iannai]

"Numbers" and "randomness" are purely human concepts anyway, so how can we be sure they even exist? A dog, for example, has absolutely no concept of numbers.

If I write 1,2,3,4,5 - why is that not random? It is humans who decided that the sequence of characters 1,2,3,4,5 denotes some sort of order. Why isn't 5,3,9,8,7,1,65,23 just as ordered or random as 1,2,3,4,5?

Whoa, I'm going to bed.

[Infiniti]

Well if we take it into human terms and not psychology, Ill get into that later:schwitz: Anyways if you say "A dog" thats one dog, dogs is plural we dont know how many unless you say so. The psychodilic part is really, our brain tells us what we see, smell, hear, feel so on... not the senses telling our brain mind you, so in therory everything is made up and Im living a hallucination, kinda like matrix :pillepall so staying on topic, us humans make up what we perceive logically and random numbers is kinda like being perfect there is no way cause everyone has there own opinion what perfect is. Just my Two cents this hurts my brain:Looking_a

[Barroso]

A dog, for example, has absolutely no concept of numbers.

allow me to disagree as ive seen a german shepard picking up numbered pieces of foam. the dog would bring you exactly the number you asked him to.

[ColeusRattus]

allow me to disagree as ive seen a german shepard picking up numbered pieces of foam. the dog would bring you exactly the number you asked him to.

That doesn't mean that the dog can count. In fact, that one works exactly like the old magicians trick where they let kids write a number on a board and the dog tells it by barking: He doesn't actually count, but he is trained to look for subtle signs to stop barking/apporting. Experienced dogs don't even need that, as they an tell if the audience (which was counting) is about to applaude...