X2 4400+ / FPS is very low even with lowest details

[Vision73]

My PC (few weeks old)
• case & psu, Nexus Breeze 500W
• motherboard, ASUS S939 NF4 SLI COOL PIPE 2*GLAN A8N-SLI PREMIUM
• cpu, AMD ATHLON 64 X2 4400+ S939 BOX ADA4400CDBOX
• graphic card, ASUSTEK GF7800 GTX TOP PCI-E 2X DVI+VIVO EN7800GTXTOP/2DHTV/2
• ram, KINGSTON DDR 2x 1GB 400MHZ NON ECC CL3 KVR400X64C3A/1G
• DVD, NEC ND-3540 Dvd+-rw Dl 16x Black Bulk 50028143
• storage, 3 x BARRACUDA 7200.7 200GB SERIAL ATA/150 ST3200822AS
• soundcard, SB Audigy Player II, PCI
• A-Link PCI USB2-card
• D-Link DWL-G122 USB WLAN
• floppy

Display: Dell LCD 1905FP
Resolution: 1280x1024, 32bit, 4xAF/8xAA from display driver settings, V-sync is enabled.

OS: XP & SP2 + all windows updates, XP "firewall" is enabled and latest AntiVir-software is installed.

Installed drivers
Bios: 1009 final, not overclocked, all unnecessary devices are disabled
Motherboard: nForce4_amd_6.70_winxp2k_international,
Graphic card: 81.85_forceware_winxp2k_international
Soundcard: kxdrv3537f-full
WLAN: 1.4.2004/v.1.0.0.0
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core, 26.10.2004/1.2.2.0, Cool'nQuiet disabled

3Dmark05 give 8680 points with default settings.

When I wrote this, cpu are 36 C / 96 F & motherboard 29 C / 94 F, when playing its a little over 40 c.

PROBLEM
Fps is very low/strutters with LFS S2 and few other games too.

I'm getting only 20-40 fps in Blackwood/South City Classic in single game with all cpu drivers, 1280x1024, 32bit, AA/AF off etc.

I'm pretty sure that this problem is because dual core processor, never had these problems with A64 4000+. (1600x1200, AAx4 & AFx8, V-Sync on) It rolled like a dream :)

Off course I have tried several driver settings with or without AF/AA, Fast Write etc. but problem still exist.

I have tested LFS S2 with several display settings too, lowest to highest details, reset settings etc.

Tested with ROPE & WinLauncherXP too, disabling second cpu core.

Never before had problems with Live For Speed S1/S2, this is my 4-5 pc with LFS.

When not playing, PC works just great, never failed.

I have read from several forums that this problem aren't unique with X2 cpu series.

If you could you give any help, any solution for this problem, I will be very gratefull!!

I have re-installed XP three times now with testing purpose, 2 times with SATA HD and latest install was yesterday to one of my spare IDE ATA harddisk with these instructions below.

1.) Install XP Professional from CD - Clean Install
2.) Install latest XP service pack 2
3.) Install nVidia Chipset Driver 6.70
4.) Install AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor Driver for Windows XP
5.) Install/Configure Windows XP SP2 Dual Core Performance Fix
6.) Modify Registry Settings
7.) Install nVidia ForceWare driver 81.85
8.) Install drivers for Sound Card
9.) Install directX9.0c

100% working games
rFactor
Quake 4
Flatout
PES5
Fear
NHL2006 with WinLauncherXP (using only one cpu core)
Far Cry
Richard Burns Rally
Call Of Duty 2

Games with problems too
- The Chronicles Of Riddick, starting problems
- GTR, fps very low
- FIFA2006, starting problems

if I disable one cpu core with these games, problem still exist.

If you wan't more details, I have made topic earlier to AMD site, : http://forums.amd.com/index.php?showtopic=60146

THX,
Vision

[AndroidXP]

Apparently, your rig is way too outdated to run LFS properly. There's no choice -you finally have to upgrade. :Looking_a
/sarcasm

No seriously, I have no idea what causes your problem :confused: I see that you already did extensive testing, did you make sure HVS is enabled in LFS?

(Also, why do you disable Cool 'n Quiet?)

[Vision73]

AndroidXP, yes HVS is enabled.

I did my pc upgrade because me friend paid very good from my "old" pc :)

Cool 'n Quiet is disabled now because my testings isn't finished yet.

/Vision

EDIT, Cool 'n Quiet.

[biggles]

Try the 81.87 drivers for your card. Also switch off V-sync.

[Vision73]

Thx biggles but I have tried earlier with 81.87 drivers and V-sync on/off.

/Vision

[Shadowdancer]

I'm pretty sure that this problem is because dual core processor, never had these problems with A64 4000+. (1600x1200, AAx4 & AFx8, V-Sync on) It rolled like a dream
The more stuff I read the more I think that this is the mainboard makers' fault. It is by now well known that the AMD X2 CPUs have some issues with drifting TSC timers due to power management. Any software using that timer will run into problems, and that's what the MS hotfix and the "/usepmtimer" boot option are supposed to fix. However, the timers exposed to the system are determined by the board's BIOS, and there we are getting to ACPI which traditionally seems to be a hard topic for board makers. (Meaning: board makers suck at their own business. Hard.)

Long story short, I have no problems with LFS, using WinXP on a Neo4 Platinum board, X2 4200+, the MS hotfix and the /usepmtimer option. Framerates are usually somewhere in the 160s with all details set to maximum at 1600x1200 resolution, even on a lowly GF6800GT. Serious Sam 2 is totally spastic, though.

[jmkz]

try this tool to force LFS to run on only ONE cpu
http://shareware.pcmag.com/product.php%5Bid%5D61946%5BSiteID%5Dpcmag

[Vision73]

THX jmkz, I'm going to try that later tonight.

I hope 3rd time will be success, I have tried LFS with ROPE & WinLauncherXP .

/Vision

[Shotglass]

have you tried this hotfix yet ?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/896256/en-us

[Vision73]

THX Shotglass,
I have tried that patch several times with different results.

XP install what I use now, after patch installing, I'll get bluescreen every time after boot (Cool'nQuiet enabled and installed).

XP clean install, no bluescreen but only positive effect was NHL2006 working 100%, no need to use WinLauncherXP.

LFS fps still sucks.

1.) Install XP Professional from CD - Clean Install
2.) Install latest XP service pack 2
3.) Install nVidia Chipset Driver 6.70
4.) Install AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor Driver for Windows XP
5.) Install/Configure Windows XP SP2 Dual Core Performance Fix
6.) Modify Registry Settings
7.) Install nVidia ForceWare driver 81.85
8.) Install drivers for Sound Card
9.) Install directX9.0c

/Vision

[MadCatX]

Try to DISABLE Simple Track in LFS graphic settings - enabling this is killing the framerate.

Also try to run LFS Benchmark(on official LFS web is link) with cfg file that is supplied with the benchmark.

[Vision73]

THX MadCatX, I will try both later tonight.

I notised that my old bench still found on http://lfsbench.iron.eu.org/?c=yoursystems with S1A :)

/Vision

[Seahorse]

It should run sweet on your Uber PC, as your drivers appear OK, you have to wonder whether it's the Game or your hardware.

The game side is posting here - pref someone with similar software. I would suggest you have a poke around the Planet64 forums (http://www.planetamd64.com/) for hardware specific help...:D

[Vision73]

More testing with S1H and S2 Alpha 05P8 + S2 Alpha clean install.

jmkz, your link was to ROPE, I have tried that earlier, no affect

MadCatX, disable Simple Track, no affect

With default settings my fps in Blackwood (S2) with 12 drivers are 30-60 fps.

With default settings my fps in South City Classic (S2) with 12 drivers are 25-50 fps.

Old S1 benchmark didn't work on S2, it says "obsolete video", so I tried with S1H.


2005-11-15 19:06:19 - LFS S1H / MIN
Frames: 22777 - Time: 109438ms - Avg: 208.126 - Min: 81 - Max: 261

2005-11-15 19:10:02 - LFS S1H / MAX
Frames: 7452 - Time: 109422ms - Avg: 68.103 - Min: 42 - Max: 104

2005-11-15 19:30:52 - LFS S1H / My own settings, highest details, 1280 x 1024, 4x AA & 8x AF
Frames: 7850 - Time: 109391ms - Avg: 71.760 - Min: 47 - Max: 103


These results below are from my old pc (A64 4000+ / 800XTPE)

2005-01-15 05:56:26 - LFS S1H / MIN
Frames: 43200 - Time: 109421ms - Avg: 394.805 - Min: 214 - Max: 492

2005-01-15 06:00:41 - LFS S1H / MAX
Frames: 13966 - Time: 109406ms - Avg: 127.652 - Min: 82 - Max: 198


card_cfg
Adapter Select 0
Adapter Name NVIDIA GeForce 7800 GTX
Use HVS 1
ZBD Select 2
Simple Track 0
Use Haze 1

THX to you all for your help!! :)

I wan't my old cpu back ..

/Vision

[jmkz]

wait.. you "upgraded" from A64 4000+ / X800XT-PE to this PC? next time you feel like wasting money, throw some over here ;)

do you have problems running HL2 or other Source engine games? somebody at a local Belgium forum has probs with his Dual Core AMD similar to yours...

[Vision73]

jmkz, I forgot to mentioned that I'm also broke :schwitz:

Your rig isn't bad either :scratchch

I have read from Asus, AMD etc. forums that there a lot's of people having these problems like me but there are some happy folks too.

I have mailed to store where I have bought my latest components.

In their words, Asus said that cpu is faulty, store has contacted also to AMD support so I have to wait some time.

I don't have HL2 but Quake4, Fear, COD2 & Far Cry works.

Off course those aren't builded with HL2 engine.

/Vision

[jmkz]

there's a demo out for HL2... ;)

[Shotglass]

hmmm that kinda worrying as im planning to buy almost identical components

have you still got that 4000+ ? might be a good idea to put it on your mobo an see if you can single out the cpu or at least a cpu-mobo incompatibility as the cause of your problems

[huxorator]

2 ideas:

I have ATI Gfx for a while, so I am not up-to-date on nvidia drivers: Maybe try some recommended driver versions, which are known as safe harbour. I remember back in detonator 41.x times, there where loads of problems due to drivers, mostly the WHQL certified ones where the only ones which seemed stable.

2nd thought: Does your board manufacturer provide some newer BIOS versions? Updating may help. And for the ACPI which is said to be a problem, you can switch Win XP from ACPI to "Standard Computer" Mode. This requires you to reinstall some drivers and set some IRQ by hand, but it may be worth a try if you know what you do.

[Vision73]

THX for your replies.

I have latest bios for mb, I have tried few earlier versions, no affect.

Today I installed latest nvdia display drivers (81.94), no affect with LFS.

I don't have my old cpu anymore, I have sold that.

huxorator, I have to check that "Standard Computer" and tried that later.

I'm going to dl HL2 demo too :)

/Vision

[huxorator]

Please consider changing from ACPI to Standard as the last thing to try as it will require you to reinstall every driver and figure around with your IRQs... this can be a lot of work. ;) If you still like to try, you can find the option at Win Device Manager -> Computer -> ACPI-Multiprocessor-PC (that's what mine reads).

Another idea: What cards, besides your Audigy Soundcard, do you have installed? Some Motherboards use "shared IRQs", which means that PCI Slot 1 and 3 for example share the same IRQ. This is no problem for most of the cards, but for example Sound Card + ISDN Card do not work together on these shared slots. Your Boards Manual will tell you if this shared IRQ for PCI is used. If so, put your cards on other PCI slots.

[boosterfire]

Okay, I just read this thread and it's completly pathetic... I just can't believe there is something wrong with this PC to run LFS. Considering that it runs all that games, there must be something in the game itself that is problematic with certain type of PC.

I might have an idea... I have a slower comp than yours and I get around the same fps (20-40). My cpu is AMD 64 3000+ and I have a Powercolor X700 PCI-E. This is too slow for my PC... it should run better than that... I just don't imagine what fps you should normally get. Here's the thing:

Of what I can see, LFS doesn't like PCI-E so much. Also, even if the card is really fast, it keeps running 20-40. Could someone tell me what they can get with a PCI-E card? Is there something wrong with thoses in LFS?

I can personally run F.E.A.R. on my comp... the graphics in this game are just... impossible to compare to LFS, it's wayyyyy better. And I run it with the same fps as lfs (around).

Some people also say that LFS asks alot of cpu... maybe it's true, but that certainly not the only factor that influence fps... and I think that maybe a good graph card is better than a good cpu. Man, you have a dual core and lfs runs 20-40? wow... :shrug:

[Shotglass]

Could someone tell me what they can get with a PCI-E card? Is there something wrong with thoses in LFS?
.
Long story short, I have no problems with LFS, using WinXP on a Neo4 Platinum board, X2 4200+, the MS hotfix and the /usepmtimer option. Framerates are usually somewhere in the 160s with all details set to maximum at 1600x1200 resolution, even on a lowly GF6800GT. Serious Sam 2 is totally spastic, though.

[frokki]

Hey Vision, did you already try disabling the dual core and running the game with only one? I've heard that it might help running some games..

[MadCatX]

Vision, do you know that performance of your dualcore X2 4400 should be somehwhere around Ath 3800+? It's real freq is 2.2 GHz and bigger L2 cache won't help a lot in LFS(that's my own experience). Suggestion with PCI-E looks as good idea, but see the benchmark page. 1st ranked machine uses 850XT in PCI-E... I think that something is definitely bad in LFS. Unfortunately no dev said anything to these problems. You ARE NOT alone, I have same problem(more likely I had, my MoBo has broken down few days ago:)) and it was same is S1 and S2.
Problem is that there is not any evident connection with "I DON'T LIKE LFS" machines, so Scawen hasn't any clue where to look for possible problem.

If you look on MAX benchmark results more carefuly, you can find some strange logs there - one for example:

18 Ligverd 0.5P A64 3200+ @2G 1024 GF 6600 (256)--54.548 36 85
19 Seggons 0.5P A64 4000+ @2.41G 2048 GF 7800 GT (256)--54.435 36 83
20 Plaitcsys 0.5 PA64 3000+ @2.025G 1024 GF 6600 GT (128)--52.501 33 81

anyone wants to say again that LFS is highly CPU dependant? It looks like Seggons has same perf. problems as a lot of us.... SCAWEN... PLEASE... Help US......... :sick:

(My 3.2E + GF6600GT "hasted" in approx. 35 fps in BW GP......)

[atledreier]

I have a 4200+, and have the same thing. When I have AI enabled I get pretty low fps. I have seen 20s on the grid, but not from inside the car. It doesn't seem to be GPU dependent, as almost any gfx settings don't affect the framerate, except the HVS ones. I have a PCI-e card, btw. I have not tried disabling one core yet, but will try that when I have time, and report any results. I HAVE tried setting LFS' affinity to either core, with no positive effect. All other games run great, although I was expecting better results in FS2004 too. Seems the system likes DX9 engines way better than DX7/8 for some reason. Running rFactor in DX9 is no problem, but anything lower give me stutters and poorer performance. Still, I only run LFS online, and there I have 80+ fps almost all the time, so I'm happy.

[MadCatX]

FPS drop when AI drivers are present on track is well known. Probably it is some problem in AI code. Vision didn't say if he has problem also when racing online, but I presume he has.
LFS doesn't like multi-CPU systems at all, no matter if it is Intel's HyperThreading emulation or real dualcore CPU. When I tested my HT Prescott, with disabled HT LFS ran a little faster(but still slow).

Is any way how to ban dualcore mode in BIOS? Yeah, this might be a stupid suggestion, but if it is there, just try it..... (I think you'd already tried it if these option'll be it BIOS)

[huxorator]

My P4 3.06 HT runs just fine + fast. As long as you have a Multiprocessor OS + correct drivers for it, there should be no problem.

[jmkz]

HT != DualCore FYI :)

[MadCatX]

My P4 3.06 HT runs just fine + fast. As long as you have a Multiprocessor OS + correct drivers for it, there should be no problem.

OS and applications are two different things. OS can support MPS on 200%, but if there is some error in application, correct drivres won't help you and everything what can "well made" OS do is save your system from crash(and WinXP ISN'T well made system -100 patches says everything).
I don't say that every app must support multiprocessoring, but if there is some error that can affect multiprocessor management in it, OS just won't save you.

[Seahorse]

HT != DualCore FYI :)

Wrong.

Hyper threading exists in single core CPUs like P4s and simply fools the machine into thinking there are two processors (threads).

A dual core CPU would therefore have 4 threads and the PC thinks you have a quad core or 4 processors...:shrug:

[Shotglass]

Wrong.

!= means not equal

A dual core CPU would therefore have 4 threads and the PC thinks you have a quad core or 4 processors...:shrug:

that would be one of the extreme edition dual core cpus then

[Seahorse]

If only money were no object...:thumb:

[MadCatX]

Don't you think we have left topic a little bit? Let's get back to it.

Vision, can you try your dualcore Athlon in some other MoBo? I replaced mine few hours ago instead faulty one and my system speeded up!! Your CPU might be OK, MoBo can be messed up. I don't remember from what manufacturer is your board, but if it's Asus, you might have a problem (last 4 Asus boards I saw in shop where their owners were returning them with some faliure:shrug: )

[jmkz]

Wrong.

uhm.. learn some simple symbols dude

!= is not =

[MadCatX]

uhm.. learn some simple symbols dude

!= is not =

Let him be amigo.... I am sure he knows it, I aslo said "what the hell he means when saying HT != Dualcore???" That note of exclamation just looked like keying mistake..... LoL!!!!!

[Seahorse]

Two points:

I left school 24 years ago - plenty of time to forget.
I thought the leading ! WAS a typo.

Dual Cores obviously having teething problems. You have the hardware vendors pushing out specific patches. You have the OS boys pushing out specific patches. How long before there is an LFS dual core patch?

Reminds me of when I built my current machine using an AMD64, patch, patch, patch...:schwitz:

[jmkz]

I'm not that stupid to state that HT = DualCore FYI ;)

[Seahorse]

As if...:huepfenic

[Shadowdancer]

Dual Cores obviously having teething problems. You have the hardware vendors pushing out specific patches. You have the OS boys pushing out specific patches. How long before there is an LFS dual core patch?

It's mostly the devleopers having problems. With single CPUs, you have to pay far less attention to a couple of problems in your code than you should. Until recently, that wasn't much of an issue since only a few "stupid consumers" actually used SMP systems and those systems were mostly in the hands of people who knew what they were doing (and who bought hardware from vendors who knew that, too). Now, with Intel and AMD acually pumping those things to the cheap-ass market, all the flaws get their chance to shine.

This holds true for OS developers, e.g. see Microsoft's bastard hotfix that may or may not solve the problems (it doesn't) or Linux' problem (http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5105) that can be circumvented with little hassle, but you have to find the solution somehow. Similarly, driver developers (nvidia, I'm looking at you!) need to cut back on optimizing for 3DMark and start doing some work.

Afterwards, it's just a thing of software developers using working timers (PM or HPET where available) and reading up on and keeping to best practices for multithreaded systems.

[jmkz]

As if...:huepfenic

I'd be badly managing my HW site "as if" :p
www.madshrimps.com

[Seahorse]

Mad as a fish then...:pillepall :nod: :D

Hey, HW site and the spec you list - something wrong there...

[Patussay]

Here the same problem

with a 4400+ toledo + ati vga (x850)

10~40 fps in the game with dual core, before, tested with a san diego 3700 single core + same specs and the permormance is totally different (70~100 fps)

[Shotglass]

Here the same problem

with a 4400+ toledo + ati vga (x850)

10~40 fps in the game with dual core, before, tested with a san diego 3700 single core + same specs and the permormance is totally different (70~100 fps)

which driver version ? anything newer than 5.11 will give you very low performance on a ati x series card:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=3639

[MadCatX]

Here it does not look like a GFX driver issue. Vision has GeForce card and got a problem too. Of course you can try it, but we should look for the problem in CPU.

In TaskManager(if you're running Win2K or XP) display CPU usage separately (Go to Performance card, View -> CPU Usage History -> Graph for each CPU - dunno how it is in your language version:shrug:). Then run LFS in window, start there some replay with approx 10-12 cars and look on CPU usage graphs. Take a screenshot(press PrintScreen and run mspaint, then press CTRL+C)

Sorry if I'm telling you something you already know or what you have done....

(attached file - showing how to set up TaskManager, sorry that I'm making an idiot from you.... :))

[Shotglass]

so what kind of performance should i expect from that pc ?
i have an almost identical pc now and atm im getting ~100 fps max but is drops to about 30 every now and then when there are lots of cars in the scene (especially with ai)

oh and cnq is troublesome too ... framerates are aout 30-60 fps lower with cnq enabled as the driver somehow doesnt see to think lfs is cpu intensive

[SparkyDave]

madcatx , you mean like this?

http://www.thefreeimagehosting.com/Uploads/Images/1905245812500lfs2.JPG (http://www.thefreeimagehosting.com/)
The pic above is with cat 5.11 drivers.. the pic below is with the 5.13 drivers .
http://www.thefreeimagehosting.com/Uploads/Images/2602566125000lfs3.JPG (http://www.thefreeimagehosting.com/)
notice the FPS decrease with new drivers :(

btw I have set afinity for LFS to use only 1 core using rope. ;)
SD.

Sys specs : AMD 4400+ X2 cpu
Saphire pure innovation xpress200p mobo
Saphire X850 xt pe PCI Express
2 x 1Gb Corsair PC3200 ram
3 x 160Gb sata Hitachi 7200 Hdd
Sony DVD RW
HypeR 580w ATX 2.0 PSU
Win XP pro (SP2 ect).

[MadCatX]

Yup, exactly what I meant. As you can see in pic1, average CPU usage is 39%. First core is sleeping and the second one is working quite hard, but there are some several waves in the graph. They can be caused by some other processes, so I will not comment them a lot. Strange is the difference between pic2. In pic2 is first core running fully loaded and the second is running some simple process on background...
I am not a dualcor CPU guru, but this major change should't be caused by the drivers. There is something bad in loadment redistribution.

But as I can see, your performance is quite OK, isn't it? Catalyst 5.12 and above drivers are buggy and LFS is not working correctly with them, that's well known issue.

I'd like to see graph like you posted from someone who thinks his performance is low....

And BTW, what happens with core loads when you disable the 'one core only' setting?

I'll look on my loads when LFSing, I have a HT P4, so I can do some simple simulations. I know, it'll not be exact(HT != dualcore), but we will see.

THX for your screens, they can be really useful....:thumb:

[letdown427]

I've got a 4400+ and a 9600 pro, so I'll try out the different drivers and see what fps I get too when I get home, if that'll be of any help?

[Patussay]

the video card, drivers, settings are not the problem, is the dual core, this problem need to be fixed with a patch or something

[SparkyDave]

the video card, drivers, settings are not the problem, is the dual core, this problem need to be fixed with a patch or something

Actually it is the Video drivers and the dual core when combined , The ATI drivers 5.12 and newer have dual core optimizations built into the drivers so the driver uses both cores, Theres a fix expected (for ATI owners) in the next driver release (6.2)

This is not a game code problem .

SD.