Paying an alpha game?

[Andrei221]

so..i was talking with some friends of mine about live for speed..they played too..but the demo.and i sayd that i have s2 and its lovely..and the sayd something like this : O.o .. did you payd for an ALPHA game? the alpha , beta should be free and when there will be a final version then you should pay.. what do you think about this? i dont think he was right ..because i love s2

[shiny_red_cobra]

Usually they would be right, because alpha games are usually in horrible condition, full of bugs and many mssing features. LFS on the other hand is a very complete and playable game and almost completely bug free. I think the "alpha" label turns many people away from the game because they may not think it's playable, or worth playing. Maybe the devs ought to reconsider this...

[Greboth]

Surely there is no rule that say comprehensivly that alpha games shoud be free, or even beta games. If people are willing to pay for your alpha game then surely you can charge people to play it. Although LFS is an alpha it runs and plays better than any other aplha I have ever seen, most beta's too and even some 'complete' games.

As all the updates and patches are free, you are paying for the final game, you just get to play while your waiting for the final game to be released.

Edit: I don't know whether you could drop the alpha from LFS because it has been said that there are things that still need to be done before S2 final, like the AI.

[Forbin]

This was covered in Ben Keough's (DeadWolfBones) article in ASS.

http://www.lfsforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=36743&d=1186662847

[Jakg]

Your not buying Alpha, your pre-ordering S2 - as "gratitude" you get to try S2 Alpha, and then Beta, and then Final.

[SamH]

Of course, in the case of most PC games it's by far and away the best decision to hold off until the program is released. In the case of many PC games, they'd be right to wait until after the first 3 months of release, when the price has dropped and everybody's got sick of playing it.

The LFS simulator development doesn't work like most games.. the ALPHA designation is used strictly and correctly, and a great many people around here will also point out.. we just don't get sick of playing it! :)

It's designated ALPHA because more features and/or content than already exists is planned for it. This is the *correct* usage of the suffix "ALPHA". Not because it doesn't work, or because it works badly.. as everyone who uses LFS, demo or S2 licenced, knows.. it's one of the most stable applications out there.

If someone doesn't want to pay for an ALPHA game because it's ALPHA, they're right to choose not to, because it's a personal decision. However, we know that the truth is that anyone who is waiting for LFS to go "GM" is just missing out on the fun in the meantime. :tilt:

[Dajmin]

I like Jakg's answer myself, makes a lot of sense.

And obviously, which nobody has mentioned, by buying (pre-ordering?) S2 you are also helping to find an indie software production undertaking a project that would have normal humans quaking in their boots :)

[danowat]

Stupid Alpha tag, I REALLY wish the dev's would drop the Alpha tag in favour of something a bit less derogatory.........

[Scawen]

In fact you aren't buying alpha software, you are buying an S2 license which gives you access to the S2 content in all stages of development. The S2 license you buy isn't alpha, it's just a license which lasts as long as the development team continues to support the software.

We don't actually sell software, that is a free download - we sell licenses to use all features of that software.

Anyway, we're working to remove the alpha tag as soon as possible by fixing the blatantly incomplete features (such as AI who keep crashing and GTR cars with road car interiors). Then S2 (not alpha or beta) can be released. There will still be updates and improvements after that point. We realise we'll get more sales when the software is not labelled alpha, so it's best to remove that as soon as possible, even though there will still be further improvements after that time.

[Krammeh]

after that, you can call them patches :P. Rather then alpha updates :P.

How much more will S2 licence holders have to pay, once S3 is out?

[danowat]

£12

Each stage is £12,
S1 = £12
S2 = £24 (S1+S2)
S3 = £36 (S1+S2+S3)

[Scawen]

S3 price isn't set yet.

Danowat's guess is the best guess available but we don't know for sure how the pricing will work.

Most likely, S2 users will pay the S3 price minus £24 because they already paid that for their S2 license.

[Becky Rose]

As a software developer and being well connected in the indie scene I have played more alpha versions of software than most, in fact I have probably played more alpha versions of various software titles than I have played finished games.

I've been waiting for some guy you dont know called Simon (also an LFS racer) to finish his zombie game for years, the gibblet explosions are awesome and the level I have played is very playable and atmospheric. I guess he's either given up or is working on some higher level that most of us will never reach. The point is, if he gave me a new demo version right now i'd be well happy.

If you gave it to a kid with an xBox controller dangling out of his hand then he'd dribble with joy up to the point the game stopped working, then it would be " shit ", rather than "awesome work, I cant wait". Therein lies the difference of mindset.

In the UK a badly decorated house will not sell, even if all it needs is an afternoon with a paint brush. Some people dont have any imagination.

I tend not to hang on promises, i've been let down by indie developers before. I paid my £24 because I am happy with what LFS offers right now, i've had my moneys worth too and I do not regret the purchase. If I was asked to pay £24 for the most awesome game called LFS S2 which may or may not be available for me to try in the next 3 or 4 years then i'd have told them to foxtrot oscar and take their lousy haircuts with them.

A lot of people are not able to see LFS as a finished game because for them issues which we've accepted hinder their play experience: One of the first things people find is how rubbish the crashes are. Then they notice that the AI are more A than I. Then they descover that the other tracks they dont recognise either, and maybe even realise that Blackwood isnt real, and that the generic XFG is then replaced by other generic cars, then ... to cap it off ... they have not yet got a wheel and miss the fine rambrandt of work that is the physics engine.

Well actually, i'm less impressed with physics since the tyres where fixed because now the bits that aren't done are more noticeable. If I played LFS physics now for the first time i'd probably not have purchased.

This is another point, currently the physics arent as great as we've historically claimed and there is a reason for this. The tyres have improved massively but are still not perfect, they slide too much. Meanwhile aerodynamics have not been touched and this is now really noticeable because there is so little aerodynamic effect on the cars by comparison to the mechanical grip. ie: Under patch Q you felt the loss of front downforce when you followed another downforce car, now you barely notice it, this is because you are getting so much grip from your tyres and not enough from your aerodynamics.

[danowat]

Good post that :nod:

LFS isn't, never has been, and probably never will be, perfect, but for £24 it's top notch, Alpha tag or not.

[squidhead]

Good post that :nod:

LFS isn't, never has been, and probably never will be, perfect, but for £24 it's top notch, Alpha tag or not.

+1
Perfection is unaccessible...
but for a racing simulator it's the best money can buy (and not very much money let me say...)
plus we have stuff like no other game I know of has - the free look camera (shift+U) which allows movie making scene in LFS be one of the best in PC games, and the autocross editor (I dont know another sim which lets you build your own track so easily)

[Cr!t!calDrift]

^ Racer, Trackmania have simple track making engines. And there are more that I don't remember :razz:

[PLAYLIFE]

S3 price isn't set yet.

Danowat's guess is the best guess available but we don't know for sure how the pricing will work.

Most likely, S2 users will pay the S3 price minus £24 because they already paid that for their S2 license.

Yeah, why do you guys (danowat et al) think that things will cost the same every year? There is a little thing called inflation and wage increases ;) Few things today cost the same as they did two or three years ago. In my country inflation is at ~5% per annum that is roughly 10% over two years. Granted, it is lower in other EU countries, but wage increases must also be considered. As workforce is a major factor in LFS costs I'd say that wage increases should actually be used to get a fair price. It might even be that Scavier thinks that their work was under priced and a more appropriate sum should be charged. Whatever happens, an upper limit to make it not so costly for new purchases must also not be forgotten. I'm betting the cost structure after S3 becomes available as Alpha will be smth similar:

S1 - not available
S2 - £18
S3 - £36

S2->S3 = £18


This is another point, currently the physics arent as great as we've historically claimed and there is a reason for this. The tyres have improved massively but are still not perfect, they slide too much. Meanwhile aerodynamics have not been touched and this is now really noticeable because there is so little aerodynamic effect on the cars by comparison to the mechanical grip. ie: Under patch Q you felt the loss of front downforce when you followed another downforce car, now you barely notice it, this is because you are getting so much grip from your tyres and not enough from your aerodynamics.

I remember reading that the effect from following another car through corners was changed by Scawen to make it more real - you lose less downforce. I think that was after patch Q. :shrug:

[Becky Rose]

It was too strong, now its too week, in my personal opinion. However I accept I have had limited track time in single seaters. I didnt know hed changed the strength of it, but actually I was using that to highlight a point - bad choice of thing to highlight I guess :)

[Forbin]

Actually, it kind of seems to me that it's still a bit too strong. You see real F1 drivers following each other much more closely than you do in LFS with the BF1.

[Becky Rose]

Having still not really driven the BF1 I couldnt express an opinion, but then, i've not driven a real F1 either. My point though was that since the tyres where improved (although not perfected) I feel the aerodynamics are now out of balance in their ommission. I feel the absense of aerodynamics much more strongly since patch S. Maybe it's a psychological thing, but it just feels to me like the car is not reacting right to the airflow around it.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Well actually, i'm less impressed with physics since the tyres where fixed because now the bits that aren't done are more noticeable. If I played LFS physics now for the first time i'd probably not have purchased.

:really: So... Since the tyres are better than they were, you'd be less likely to purchase, even though nothing else has changed? Interesting.

The tyres have improved massively but are still not perfect, they slide too much..... this is because you are getting so much grip from your tyres ... :scratchch

There is a lot of aero effect as far as downforce is concerned, I'm not sure what you're on about with that bit TBH. Not long ago I was racing the FO8, which I don't do often. I ran a number of laps alone before someone joined, and we started racing. I came out of a turn like normal, applying full power which previously had been fine. My fellow racer had come up right behind me through that turn, and while my right foot was planted, he came up right behind me and the rear lit up like crazy... Really caught me off gaurd actually since I don't race the open wheelers much. Subsequent to this, I fishtailed a tiny bit before letting off a little and reacting, and he had gone off from understeer.

[JohnPenn]

LFS is the most involving Online driving experience I have had since GPL.. Its a bargain for me, I don't care if its alpha beta or Omega, its a bit good:thumb:.

End of the commercial .. back to your regular program:nod:

[ajp71]

This is another point, currently the physics arent as great as we've historically claimed and there is a reason for this. The tyres have improved massively but are still not perfect, they slide too much. Meanwhile aerodynamics have not been touched and this is now really noticeable because there is so little aerodynamic effect on the cars by comparison to the mechanical grip. ie: Under patch Q you felt the loss of front downforce when you followed another downforce car, now you barely notice it, this is because you are getting so much grip from your tyres and not enough from your aerodynamics.

Scawen changed the aero after Q to loose less on the rear, stopping the old completely unrealistic sudden oversteer that made close racing hard. It's been replaced with a more realistic loss of front downforce resulting in understeer, it's not a pronounced but it definatley does make some difference. The real issue though is LFS runs far too sticky compounds on the FOX. Real life Formula Renaults run tires that would be more like R3s maybe R4s, requiring a much higher dependency on aerodynamic grip. In my real life experience of working on single seaters the issue has always been getting heat into the tires, not trying to keep them cool.

[Becky Rose]

:really: So... Since the tyres are better than they were, you'd be less likely to purchase, even though nothing else has changed? Interesting.
Yes, and in my original post there is a 'because' too :) It's about balance. I've not noticed the effect on my airflow with a car chasing me - neither have I noticed it with a car or wall beside me - it's quite easy to test too. Drive the oval flat out near the wall or in the middle of the track - it's the same deal and it shouldnt be. This lack of interaction with the environment, and the comparative weeknesses of the aerodynamics against the tyres, to me at least are more noticeable. This is one reason why since patch S i've barely touched the downforce cars, when they used to be all I raced.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yes, and in my original post there is a 'because' too :) It's about balance. I've not noticed the effect on my airflow with a car chasing me - neither have I noticed it with a car or wall beside me - it's quite easy to test too. Drive the oval flat out near the wall or in the middle of the track - it's the same deal and it shouldnt be. This lack of interaction with the environment, and the comparative weeknesses of the aerodynamics against the tyres, to me at least are more noticeable. This is one reason why since patch S i've barely touched the downforce cars, when they used to be all I raced.

Yes, good point about the walls for sure.

Balance seems like a strange idea when you're talking about flaws though. Less flaws is inherantly better in my world! :nod: With your way of looking at it, everything would have to fixed at once to make it more enjoyable than a previous, more flawed iteration. To each their own I guess :shrug:

[bbman]

Under patch Q you felt the loss of front downforce when you followed another downforce car, now you barely notice it, this is because you are getting so much grip from your tyres and not enough from your aerodynamics.

If you think back, it wasn't really front, but rear downforce you lost, making cornering behind another car (even in quite a distance) a major pita...

[PRMLSCRM]

FAKE QUOTE REMOVED

OK dude, but i would rather prefer, that lfs continues to be built by people who can actually drive, and fast, if you don't mind, lol.

[SamH]

PRMLSCRM, that was a VERY bad start on this forum. If you continue this way, your stay here will be very short. Don't misquote or misrepresent other members again.

[SamH]

If you think back, it wasn't really front, but rear downforce you lost, making cornering behind another car (even in quite a distance) a major pita...
IIRC, the loss of downforce happened equally over front and rear. Scawen made a change so that, as you entered the "zone" the loss of downforce was felt at the front, as it should be.

[Cr!t!calDrift]

Sorry to be OT, but I love your avatars SamH, they are always awesome.

[SamH]

tyvm :D [/OT]

[legoflamb]

the alpha , beta should be free and when there will be a final version then you should pay.. what do you think about this?

It is true that the true bata and alpha should be free, but, LFS is not actually in alpha. LFS is called alpha as more of a symbolism to the fact that it is not finished and the devs want more out of their brainchild if it can be called that. However on another subject, IMO it will be the best sim racing game youll ever buy.

[bbman]

It is true that the true bata and alpha should be free,

Where did you get that from? :really: Alpha, Beta and Final are nothing but stages of development! Now, a developer can choose to do a free public alpha or beta test, but that has nothing to do with pricing... Should a car be free because it misses the stereo???

[the_angry_angel]

It is true that the true bata and alpha should be freeStop talking bollocks.

[PRMLSCRM]

Don't misquote or misrepresent other members again.

Misrepresent? ajp71 is indeed at least 4 secs slower than your average racer on any track/car combo. Listening from his physics input is like asking me how to cook like Ferran Adria. You might wish that was a lie, but it's not.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

How fast you are on the track is not necessarily connected with having scientific knowledge. Kind of like the fact that just because you can type, it certainly doesn't mean that you have anything worthwhile to say - just look at your posts! (you might wish that was a lie, but it's not)

On top of that, some real drivers (not all) talk feces about vehicle dynamics because they don't understand what's really happening in terms of physics.

[dawesdust_12]

Jeff, very Tristan-like. I love it.

Also, AJP ain't 4 secs slower on most combos, if you're comparing to WR, then that's BS because people take varied lines to squeeze out every tenth of KMH, and if you're comparing to real driving, then you lose still.

[SamH]

Misrepresent? ajp71 is indeed at least 4 secs slower than your average racer on any track/car combo. Listening from his physics input is like asking me how to cook like Ferran Adria. You might wish that was a lie, but it's not.
You wrote out an entirely fictional piece of text and wrapped it as a quote as if ajp71 had said it. If you are genuinely unable to see what is wrong with doing that, you should let me know now so that I can flag your username and follow you around this forum, moderating your posts.

As for ajp's laptimes, I've never raced in demo mode with him. If/when you get an S2 licence, you'll be able to see how he races in S2 too. An individual's on-track performance and/or skills are NOT a marker for personal judgement calls, nor are they a subject for this forum.

[MAGGOT]

It is true that the true bata and alpha should be free...

As already stated, you're not buying alpha software, you are buying a license to use the full content of the software. You own that license for as long as the sim is supported. Scawen has already said this so your post is bollocks... which has also been said already :tilt:

[Racer Y]

Uh Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't the real reason it's called alpha is simply because there were a few issues and fewer bugs that needed working on. So to be conservative (and honest) they titled it alpha just to be on the safe side?
And the alpha beta thingee... I think we DO get alpha, beta, delta point one or whatever for free. I think we pay for the license to use it.

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I think we DO get alpha, beta, delta point one or whatever for free. I think we pay for the license to use it.

LFS is technically in constant Delta :razz:

[Forbin]

I don't know why this is even an issue. In the software development world, if it's not completed yet, it's Alpha. If everything is completed but there are still bugs, it's Beta. Obviously there are a number of things in LFS that have yet to be completed. Thus, LFS is currently Alpha software. End of discussion.

[Hankstar]

You know this community mate - the game keeps going long after the net's been taken down, the umpires have left and the ballboys are home in bed :D

[dawesdust_12]

Hank, nobody cares about soccer. There was no net, no referee's showed up, and the ballboys are just pedo's looking at the little boys.

:p

[Hankstar]

I was, of course, referring to tennis ...

:p

[dawesdust_12]

Tennis sucks.


Hank, stop making me look dumb, I don't need any help!

[tristancliffe]

FAKE QUOTE REMOVED
What username do you normally post under? You're obviously part of the community, so I would guess S2 licenced. But being a big girls blouse (probably scared of mice and your own reflection) you have to hide behind another identity. Very childish of you. Shame you don't have friends, or I'd ask you to spend time with them (and not here).

[dawesdust_12]

Tristy, Apparently this is actually a unique person who is a total knob.

[mcintyrej]

I dont know if this has been discussed before, and I might be wrong because i'm very tired right now.
But how about, ( I dont know if there will be any more releases after S3, like.. S4.. ) But.. You are able to buy S1, or S2, and if you own both S1 and S2, you will automatically be able to unlock S3?
I mean, sure, it's an amazing game, but if it will be like 12 - 24 - 36 ( In pounds ) It will be more expensive than the most of the games are here in euro's.

You guys must get it pretty cheap then.

Games sell for about £30-£50 here, normally about the £40 mark. LFS S3 would be WELL worth £36, S2 would probably be worth that.

[Jakg]

I dont know if this has been discussed before, and I might be wrong because i'm very tired right now.
But how about, ( I dont know if there will be any more releases after S3, like.. S4.. ) But.. You are able to buy S1, or S2, and if you own both S1 and S2, you will automatically be able to unlock S3?
I mean, sure, it's an amazing game, but if it will be like 12 - 24 - 36 ( In pounds ) It will be more expensive than the most of the games are here in euro's.I've been playing LFS for 2 years, approaching 31,000 miles, and i'm nowhere near bored of it - i just don't get that with any other game. It's well worth the cash i've spent on it!

[SparkyDave]

I think Jak has hit the nail on the head :) I suppose it all comes down to supply and demand or maybe just demand :) as long as people are willing to shell out £24 or £36 to be able to use this alpha-beta-delta software then it will always be worth it to them/us.


most of us realise the potential this game/sim has and can see the work Scawen/the devs put into it and for whatever reason keep playing it over and over :)

for me its so worth it its untrue :D even if its just for some real life escapism.

SD.

[PLAYLIFE]

I've been playing LFS for 2 years, approaching 31,000 miles, and i'm nowhere near bored of it - i just don't get that with any other game. It's well worth the cash i've spent on it!

:thumbsup:

Same here

[ajp71]

Misrepresent? ajp71 is indeed at least 4 secs slower than your average racer on any track/car combo. Listening from his physics input is like asking me how to cook like Ferran Adria. You might wish that was a lie, but it's not.

Ohh I missed this :)

So who have I pissed off recently? (I genuinely don't know)

My bet is it's probably a certain Kid ;)

[braincore02]

i don't mind paying for alpha software if it's already good. the software is in a state where it's thoroughly satisfying to use, so i bought it. my company sells software that's in the thick of development all the time. but they're shadier about it, and don't let people know this by adding alpha/beta titles. and these users pay a LOOOOOT more than lfs users do.

the only problem i have is the mention of upcoming S3 release. i have to pay an extra 25ish bucks for that, on top of the 50 i've already spent. that seems steep, no matter what phase of development the game is in. and if they add more licenses on top of that, well geez how much can you spend on one game?

if they're gonna keep adding licenses i think they should compress the amount each license costs, and discount the price for current S2 users, so the entire game can be bought for a reasonable price.

[Forbin]

Here we go again...

The full price of S3 will be 36 GBP (approx. $72.36 USD). Since we're not there yet, and thanks to the generosity of Scavier, we're able to buy (licenses for) parts of the game over time for 12 GBP apiece. AFAIK, there are no current plans to go beyond S3.

[Shotglass]

the only problem i have is the mention of upcoming S3 release. i have to pay an extra 25ish bucks for that, on top of the 50 i've already spent.

i think youll find that the culprit here is the weak dollar and not the actual price for s3 which is perfectly reasonable in both pounds and euros

[theirishnoob]

i think lfs is playable... boring after a while but due to Over playin ofcourse but i can understand what peole say when they say " you pay to play a demo version of a game :shrug: " but lfs is good.. just wait a while and before you know it its evolved into the best racing sim on the net with great graphics physics and spinners for your uf1 ( that would be funny and ricer at the same time... which is a good thing , no ?? :D)


ofcourse theres other games out there that are worth they money you pay for them ( e.g kiado racer 2 ) but the lfs community is also what you get when you pay that 24 £ for a quiet addictive and under rated game...

[dawesdust_12]

i think youll find that the culprit here is the weak dollar and not the actual price for s3 which is perfectly reasonable in both pounds and euros

Heck, 75$ is reasonable even in Canadian, seeing I just spent 70$ on Bioshock. LFS is not over priced, it's perfectly priced IMO.

[UncleBenny]

LFS is great peice of software, and i had no problem speing money to buy S2. i think i'll feel the same for S3, and i wish i could say the same for beyond, but i doubt it will happen.

the point is, "live for speed" will never happen again, and right now i'm just appreciating that i get to participate in this development.

[bbman]

Here we go again...

The full price of S3 will be 36 GBP (approx. $72.36 USD). Since we're not there yet, and thanks to the generosity of Scavier, we're able to buy (licenses for) parts of the game over time for 12 GBP apiece. AFAIK, there are no current plans to go beyond S3.

Scawen recently said the price for S3 is NOT final, the only thing that is is S2 users will only pay the difference from the 24 GBP they've already spent...

[Forbin]

Ah yes, I remember that now, my mistake. Even so, it won't be much more than it is right now.

[mowax]

the stage-concept works fine for me, no problem for me to pay another 20€ or so for stage 3. because this is more an enthusiast-game, it will never be popular as need for speed or all that arcade games. the small developer team must be payed while they work on it. this is the way how its possible to get all the features that makes lfs LFS.

i work on a games-company too and can see all the crap thats usually going on with publisher-stress, they cancel features because they think its not suitable for the main-market, they dont care about innovations because its too much risk and so on. the only goal is to make as much profit as possible. in that case alpha versions are often not well payable, thats right.

so feel lucky that there are people like the lfs'-ones, making a game that they want (and we want) and don't have to listen to people who only want to bring it to the market.

support it, its worth the money

[braincore02]

i think youll find that the culprit here is the weak dollar and not the actual price for s3 which is perfectly reasonable in both pounds and euros

damn you George W Stupidhead!

Heck, 75$ is reasonable even in Canadian, seeing I just spent 70$ on Bioshock. LFS is not over priced, it's perfectly priced IMO.

yeah i don't think $75 US is reasonable for a videogame. maybe in canadian, i dunno, but i get miffed everytime i have to spend 65 on a 360 game. i remember back in the genesis days games got up to $80 bucks in some cases. it was ridiculous. GENESIS games! some of them didn't even come with accessories! then the average dropped to $50 for a looooong time, which i was quite happy about. that to me is the sweet spot for videogame pricing.

after the time i've spent with live for speed tho, this has to be the most realistic feeling and enjoyable sim i've ever played, when played with the G25. i'm thinking i wouldn't feel bad paying for S3 at this point. if they allow modding at that stage (at least offline please!) then the replay value will be endless.

[Degats]

Damn you Americans and your cheap games :p 360 titles are typically £45-50 RRP (US$90-100) in the UK although PC games are usually a bit cheaper in the £30-45 RRP range.

When totalling up prices for LFS licenses, you should probably think about the time-scale involved between versions. So far there have been 2 releases of LFS over several years for £12 each. Compare that to, say, the Need For Speed series where it costs £30-50 (depending on PC/Console etc) per year for a game that focuses on prettiness rather than core changes.

All in all LFS is a bloody bargain, alpha or not. :thumb:

[mrodgers]

Why do we still compare the cost in the US compared to the UK. We determined a few weeks back, that with the average salary in the US in dollars is equal to the same number as the average salary in the UK in GBP. Since the $ is ~2x the GBP, it all adds up to being relatively the same. When you state how cheap our games are when we say $45 and you state that they are expensive for you at £45, yet average salaries are $36,000 and £36,000 respectively, where is the difference that is making games cheaper around here?

As for games, I walk through the store and see the most expensive game at the moment is FSX at $50. Most games are $40 until they are eventually reduced to $20. Everyone always talks about 360 or PS3 games when talking about the price. I'd like to know when LFS was released on the 360 or PS3? If LFS was all completely finished in it's S3 form, $72 would be quite expensive for a computer game. FSX is the only PC game I've ever seen at that price and it was reduced down to $50 quite quickly.

[Jakg]

In the UK the Average Income is £21,000, £19,000 in Scotland iirc. The cost of stuff is also a little cheaper in the US. In the UK PC games sell for anywhere between £30 and £40 when new.

Heres stuff from one of the main PC Retailers (who make money out of peoples lack of knownledge, thus their affectionante nickname of "PC Wank")

FSX - £60 - http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1616761352.118820785 7@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccfkaddlldmgjdjcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=240718&category_oid=
WOW Update - £50 - http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1616761352.118820785 7@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccfkaddlldmgjdjcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=417396&category_oid=-30357
TDU - £30 - http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1616761352.118820785 7@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccfkaddlldmgjdjcflgceggdhhmdgmi.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=774556&category_oid=-30357

[Becky Rose]

I would love to earn the average salary. Unfortunately when you remove the top 1% of the population from the calculation the average is much lower indeed :(.

[Maelstrom]

I would love to earn the average salary. Unfortunately when you remove the top 1% of the population from the calculation the average is much lower indeed :(.
The median salary is more accurate!
It's arround £23000 in UK
$34,926 (men) and $23,546 (women) in the US. The general population one must be somewhere in the middle.