and... how are the developers?

[vf1-xj220]

and... how are you guys...?

most of the people here demand and demand and demand more things, better things, fixed things, and i´ve even seen people get angry at not being able to do something with the game...

and a very few people care about the developers... how are you guys, how are you doing?, are you acomplishing your expectations with the game... is the development process going smoothly as you expected?, and one of the most important questions, are you guys financially ok?

excuse my bad english, i´m from chile, and i´m the owner of a small simcenter with 6 cockpits at the moment, that i´ve been trying to introduce here in my country...

and as we all know, the developers might have started this project out of fun, and everybody is having TONS of fun... but experiencing my situation, where i also started a simcenter business out of fun... we can´t live with fun. Fun doesn´t pay neither the rent, bills, and you can´t buy computers with fun. I had to keep my old computer technician job in order to mantain VF1 Motorsports (the name of our simcenter), because it´s my dream, and everybody is having fun with it, but it´s real tough, and it´s still tough while nearly a year from starting, i´m finally starting to earn a little bit more than what i´m spending monthly. I still have to keep my old job or i´m broke, and it´s really hard to keep up... i have even tought sometimes to trash everything and live like a normal guy, but considering the intial investment that we made along with my wife, we just can´t do that..

that´s why i wondered, if the developers of LFS are getting what they need, what are the plans for future releases of Live For Speed, are you guys working full time on LFS or you have to keep side jobs in order to keep up with the demand of all things?.

i know a lot of people is going to hate me for this... but i suggest LFS S3 to be subscription based.

come on guys.. people are spending almost $300 on steering wheels, money that´s going to a retailer, or to a manufacturer that doesn´t really needs that money..., i´m not saying that everybody does... but at least you spend $100 in a momo or a DFP.

The developers need money in order to keep this wonderful project working... i´ve even considered donating a monthly percent of my profits (when i get some finally :) ), in order to provide support to the development team of LFS... and i think the best way to keep up a wonderful project like this one is a subscription based system for the new upcoming release of LFS.

You´ve seen how games with this kind of system recieves support... the mounstrous example of World of Worldcraft, i know there is no point of comparision considering the target customers, but with that system, the developers are going to get everything they need, and we are going to get almost everything we demand... considering the guidelines of the original concept of the game.

the subscription shouldnt be as high as wow´s but a couple of bucks a month, will generate a constant and even more important, a predictable income for the developers to hire staff, establish a solid enterprise, and keep having fun with awesome releases with constant and always even better improvements as we have seen up to now.

i might be speculating yes, but i care about this kind of stuff because i´m experiencing it, and if the developers have managed to get to this point where we have the most advanced racing simulation game available from them, i´m pretty sure that keeping up the project is more than three times more demanding and complicated than it was a couple of years ago when the development of S1 was planning S2.

i want to hear opinions of those in favor or against a subscription system, and moreover, i would like to hear about the developers, is there anything we could do for you guys?

[Jakg]

The LFS development model doesn't really get sped up by extra cash - Scawen has this as his full time job, and he doesn't like the idea of letting other coders in.

[Taavi(EST)]

HI!

I understand your concern, but can you really imagine Victor or Scawen posting in this thread how hard the development progress is for them? And if they are having financial difficulties, why should they officially announce about it here? Think about their reputation after this, the average high expecting customer would never invest it's money into a project that is having financial difficulties.

And as for the subscription based stuff, i would probably pay for it if it really would a few quid a month, but if it would be more than 10 quid a month then I'd pull my "stocks" out of this project.

[vf1-xj220]

it´s not about them posting those kind of stuff, i´m sure they won´t and it´s common that they should answer that everything is great...

i didn´t know that scawen had another job for example... that might mean that LFS development is the hobby?, i know that a cash isn´t going to speed up things, but at least i´m speaking for myselft, if i were scawen or victor i would like LFS to be my full time job, not my side job... and speculating again, LFS is a side project because it supports itself, but it can´t support others for the time being...

i think i know how demanding this increasing project might be, and i would like to express my favor to a subscription system for S3, wich i think it´s the best suited model for this stage of the project... LFS has to go enterprise sooner or later.

[Jakg]

Scawen DOESN'T have another job - he works full time (and from the release times of some of the patches over full time!) - money wont make him work faster...

[CasseBent]

Unless it's coins flung at him

[ATC Quicksilver]

Yeh but he would put up red and white barriers around him and they would just fly 2,000,000 feet up into the air and not hurt him. :thumb:

[CSU1]

- money wont make him work faster...

:smileypul...will twinkeys...or cookies?:razz:

[vf1-xj220]

ooh well.. that´s great to hear tho..., the full time working thing, not the overworking, although overworking sometimes comes with joy, it´s actually 5:30am here, and i´m still tweaking one of the computers for tomorrow´s race :).. i LOVE my job way too much... and luckily.. my wife it´s in it with me, so i don´t have a WAF to consider (WAF= Wife Acceptance Factor, commony found when a man finds a hobby where to spend time).

but i would like to know.. if LFS is going to go enterprise, it is already, or scawen is the only one recieving and attending to all our requests?... i find that way too much to handle...

[SpikeyMarcoD]

There is another option to somewhat sponsor the project with some variable income. They introduced the hi-res skin download.

[The Very End]

:smileypul...will twinkeys...or cookies?:razz:

Cookies or pai, that would do the trick.
:razz:

[Jesters Tear]

'Excuse my bad english'? Wouldn't worry about that friend - not patronising you but your post contained better english than some natives have posted of late! Made perfect sense to me and a good read too.

[DarkTimes]

I think the developers are doing fine, although they've been a bit quiet of late. Maybe Scawen has gone on holiday! But anyway, I don't think the developers have any financial problems, LFS seems to be very successful.

[bbman]

I think the developers are doing fine, although they've been a bit quiet of late. Maybe Scawen has gone on holiday! But anyway, I don't think the developers have any financial problems, LFS seems to be very successful.

:chairs: Scawen said if is quiet that means he is coding hard... So the only question would be: How long until Y?

[DarkTimes]

:chairs: Scawen said if is quiet that means he is coding hard... So the only question would be: How long until Y?
Nah, he's on a beach in the Bahamas. :)

[ACCAkut]

Nah, he's on a beach in the Bahamas. :)

...with his laptop and coding:razz:

[rediske]

I guess Scawen's on holiday... He hasn't posted in the forums for almost 3 weeks now. Happy holidays! :)

http://www.lfsforum.net/search.php?do=finduser&u=43

[geeman1]

Or he has been coding day and night for Y. :tilt:

[Bob Smith]

rediske - Quite the opposite I'd imagine, if he's off the forums then he's deep into doing better things; like coding, or his wife (gf?).

[zeugnimod]

Hasnt it always been like this that he went silent for some weeks after a new patch?

[The Very End]

rediske - Quite the opposite I'd imagine, if he's off the forums then he's deep into doing better things; like coding, or his wife (gf?).

As ^ sais it, he has a life too, I bet he uses very much time with the LFS project, so if he now has some time with his wife on a hooliday or something, then I think we just should back off and let him have this holidays in quiet without me or any other people screaming "WHEN IS y-PATCH COMING OOUUTT?!?!?!?"

[FOGlegsy]

I think some people expect to have a new patch every month, possibly due the huge amount of test patches we have seen over the last few months, maybe he worked his but off so he could have a half decent summer with his friends and family? anyhow i find LFS progresses at just about the right speed, be patient Y will come!


p.s does that mean the ctra-x system will become ctra-y when we get a it?

[SpikeyMarcoD]

I think the developers are doing fine, although they've been a bit quiet of late. Maybe Scawen has gone on holiday! But anyway, I don't think the developers have any financial problems, LFS seems to be very successful.


Think you are right. Only posts form Victor. And its a well-earned one also.

[okijuhans]

We must donate more for the LFS. I`m gonna buy some HI Res skins now and maybe donate some money either.

[al heeley]

Consider all the activity recently in LFS - patch X, release of new CTRA system, and the LX competition month.
Busy busy busy.
expect some quiet for a while now as we expect these "what's happening" posts to restart. It's the normal pattern repeating over again.

[Batterypark]

Consider all the activity recently in LFS - patch X, release of new CTRA system...

...what? Does Scawen have something to do with CTRA?

[dawesdust_12]

He actually does have some to do with the CTRA, seeing functions added into Insim, Becky has requested and Scawen has added them. Also Bob, the way you said that Scawen is deep into doing other things, and then mentioned his wife, sounds sorta dirty... :p

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Not directly; just listening to Becky's requests and beefs :D

edit: damn you Dawes.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Well I will be expecting more competitions like the LX one, it was so popular and gives us something to look forward to between patches. Remember patch Y is some way off, its the next big patch with lots of updates.

[The Very End]

Well I will be expecting more competitions like the LX one, it was so popular and gives us something to look forward to between patches. Remember patch Y is some way off, its the next big patch with lots of updates.

Sorry for going off topic, but that means 2 months +- probally from now?
But of course I understand that we canot set a time on when the new patch is coming, just me that is curios :)

[AndroidXP]

Two months would be very VERY optimistic. Depending on how much Scawen wants to implement before going public again, I'd start with the estimate of about half a year. Getting something earlier would be a nice surprise, but by all means don't expect it.

[romus74]

back to original topic: constant flow of cash as a business model is good, now licenses are sold perhaps once in two years per player. I would happily accept paying subscription fees like 5€ per month, and that would already in 8 months be more that what I've paid this far in two years owning the license. I know some businesses who increased their stability by moving from selling hardware to renting services instead, and thus getting more predictable flow of cash (and more of cash).

well, for me it does not really matter much how lfs is run, just that it stays alive for the next 50 years. (i would be 83 then =)

[vf1-xj220]

it´s wonderful to see everyone taking care of the developers and the whole project status...

as some proposed before... i would like to make things clear on how i think it might work perfectly

S1 and S2 licenses should remain as they are now, with their initial fee only, with constant main engine optimizations and pretty much like how S1 has coexisted along with S2.

S3 will charge monthly (subscriptions that can be bought in packs of 3, or 6 months or even a year for further discounts), but it´ll charge only for extra content that might demand constant development and a steady amount of income for projects such as the CTRA, regulated championships, evolving racing models, dynamic aging of tracks, and all the wonderful things that actually happen in the motorsports world.

i would actually love to see my car´s suspension to be wrecked by a poorly newly installed patch in blackwood´s asphalt, content that surprises us every time that we enter a championship. it is my fault for not realizing that it was actually damaging my car, althoug it was placed over the ideal raceline. LFS is too perfect from my point of view... greatest thing ever was the wind... added an extra flavor to the race, and takes out the great drivers who can handle that kind of variables.

these kind of things demands constant development and a steady income to work... and i think that the maintenance of the aditional content or even some of the new content of the game would not interfere with the coding process of scawen... so nobody will be nosing into his code... and he might get more people to work in other areas that demand more time than coding.

and about the patch Y... don´t sweat it guys.. take the holiday while we enjoy the wonders of patch X.... although bigger signal lights and a horn for the start of the race would be great ;)

[Maelstrom]

it´s wonderful to see everyone taking care of the developers and the whole project status...

as some proposed before... i would like to make things clear on how i think it might work perfectly

S1 and S2 licenses should remain as they are now, with their initial fee only, with constant main engine optimizations and pretty much like how S1 has coexisted along with S2.

S3 will charge monthly (subscriptions that can be bought in packs of 3, or 6 months or even a year for further discounts), but it´ll charge only for extra content that might demand constant development and a steady amount of income for projects such as the CTRA, regulated championships, evolving racing models, dynamic aging of tracks, and all the wonderful things that actually happen in the motorsports world.

i would actually love to see my car´s suspension to be wrecked by a poorly newly installed patch in blackwood´s asphalt, content that surprises us every time that we enter a championship. it is my fault for not realizing that it was actually damaging my car, althoug it was placed over the ideal raceline. LFS is too perfect from my point of view... greatest thing ever was the wind... added an extra flavor to the race, and takes out the great drivers who can handle that kind of variables.

these kind of things demands constant development and a steady income to work... and i think that the maintenance of the aditional content or even some of the new content of the game would not interfere with the coding process of scawen... so nobody will be nosing into his code... and he might get more people to work in other areas that demand more time than coding.

and about the patch Y... don´t sweat it guys.. take the holiday while we enjoy the wonders of patch X.... although bigger signal lights and a horn for the start of the race would be great ;)

aka commercial suicide :tombstone

[vf1-xj220]

do you really think that a subscription fee model would be a commercial suicide?.. it´s been a successful model for most of the companies who implemented it... worst case scenario... it won´t wonk... but under no circunstances i think that it´ll be a disaster...

and remember that i´m talkin hypotetically, this is NOT how S3 would be... i´m just trying to see if there is support for this type of financial model, because i think it´ll be more beneficial for both the development and the developers.

seeing that they implemented a pay per download for the skin method for the high res skins, proves that the game advancement is growing faster than the income... and that means the hindering of the whole project...

please consider that i´m noone to speak of these things... i´m purely talking based on speculations and hypothesis...we have yet to hear from the developers how the licensing process will be for S3... i wish to express my favor to a subscription method, and i want to know if there is support for this because its tremendously beneficial for ourselves as the customers and for the whole LFS project and the things around it

[Inouva]

This r the dev ????????????????

http://i.boomtown.net/pics/9/9/9/52999/292x219.jpg


Lol how many age they have?
________
Bmw M12 (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_M12)

[Jamexing]

I bet Scawen is busily coding and testing for the next major patch, implementing and perfecting some serious physics upgrades. Who knows? He did promise improved physics back in the patch X series test patches and judging by LFS's history it is quite possible that he is delivering on his promise as we speak. :)

[bbman]

seeing that they implemented a pay per download for the skin method for the high res skins, proves that the game advancement is growing faster than the income... and that means the hindering of the whole project...

No, it means they listened to an outcry of a part of the community who wanted better visuals, and to cover their expenses for the increased bandwith and transfer rates, they now charge a small fee... I don't think many users have chosen the option to pay for the higher res-skins, people on the internet tend to take what's free and not bother with something they have to pay for (more so when there is something only marginally worse for free)...

[Bob Smith]

If the registrations on lfs.net are anything to go by, the devs have a constant revenue stream anyway, with the odd spike following a big release:

(note this figures for this graph included both licensed and unlicensed accounts)

[deggis]

160 000?! :schwitz: What that "userbase" exactly means? LFSworld including demo racers?

[Bob Smith]

As I said, any account that was ever created on lfs.net. I got the data from the forums, which shares the same account system. I think as a very rough rule of thumb, there are 3 demo accounts to every licensed account.

[dawesdust_12]

I think that "160,000" is how many accounts are registered on LFS.net, which is pretty accurate, because I (personally) have 2 S2 accounts, and a demo account on LFS.net (plan to make it 3 S2 accounts soon(ish)). I know that the mods have a demo account after the recent Phlosz0rs forum hacking, then there's loads of the guys coming on here and going "I CRAXZ0RZ!".

[vf1-xj220]

No, it means they listened to an outcry of a part of the community who wanted better visuals, and to cover their expenses for the increased bandwith and transfer rates, they now charge a small fee... I don't think many users have chosen the option to pay for the higher res-skins, people on the internet tend to take what's free and not bother with something they have to pay for (more so when there is something only marginally worse for free)...

better visuals is part of the game development advancement, wich demands more resources... i mean... please, understand my concept, i don`t favor the tiranous "you don`t pay, you don`t play" this game licensing method for s1 and s2 should remain as it is, it has worked great up till now and just watch the wonder that the developers have brought for us, LFS is by far THE best racing simulation enviroment available... period.

you want more and better?, you will get more and better, we've recieved FAR more than we have given to the developers, just imagine how much money people are still spending on cheap games with no development backup, no improvements, no community, no nothing...

the developers of this game gave us the DREAM concept of the gaming industry, they are one of the few alive development team that's working for the sake of the constant game development concept, and i'm assuming this is their dream also... the developers won't ask us... that`s why i`m here to ask the community to favor a better concept to support the whole infraestructure that they`ve given us...

come on, what`s 3 or 5 pounds a month... that`s pocket money compared to what we spend going our with drinks or beer in a single weekend day...

this is to support your own dreams too people... this game is my dream and i`m willing to support it.

[Thunderhead]

better visuals is part of the game development advancement, wich demands more resources... i mean... please, understand my concept, i don`t favor the tiranous "you don`t pay, you don`t play" this game licensing method for s1 and s2 should remain as it is, it has worked great up till now and just watch the wonder that the developers have brought for us, LFS is by far THE best racing simulation enviroment available... period.

you want more and better?, you will get more and better, we've recieved FAR more than we have given to the developers, just imagine how much money people are still spending on cheap games with no development backup, no improvements, no community, no nothing...

the developers of this game gave us the DREAM concept of the gaming industry, they are one of the few alive development team that's working for the sake of the constant game development concept, and i'm assuming this is their dream also... the developers won't ask us... that`s why i`m here to ask the community to favor a better concept to support the whole infraestructure that they`ve given us...

come on, what`s 3 or 5 pounds a month... that`s pocket money compared to what we spend going our with drinks or beer in a single weekend day...

this is to support your own dreams too people... this game is my dream and i`m willing to support it.

I wrote a loong post before this,but decided to edit it and say just this:
If LFS goes subscription based, I guarantee you that many people will stop playing. There are many players from countries where online banking is either non existant, or getting a credit card/debit card that allows one to purchase things online internationally,is hard to get. Also underage/young users: "I gave you 24 quids for that stupid game,now you want a fiver every month? HELL NO!" or "You might have earned that fiver somewhere,but It's me who has the credit card"(Catch my drift here?) And let's not forget people who are just too cheap for anything subscription based.

Only way for users like those is to make some kind of prepaid voucher based system,kind of Blizzard is doing for WoW around here. But LFS team is not Blizzard.Cost of distributing those vouchers would be bigger than possible profits(racing sims don't get as much users as WoW),therefore the question is:

Should LFS go to a subscription based sytem,and possibly lose a part of the userbase,or stay like this?

And that is a question only the devs can answer.

[vf1-xj220]

so... what you are saying is that you will stop and trash those 25 you invested in the game that will still get updates... you will stop playing s2 with all the support given just as S1 recieved support from S2...just because s3 went subscription based?... i´m sorry but that´s pretty narrow minded.

LFS won´t decrease it´s database... people will still be able to play s2 and s1 as they are playing now..

[DarkTimes]

so... what you are saying is that you will stop and trash those 25 you invested in the game that will still get updates... you will stop playing s2 with all the support given just as S1 recieved support from S2...just because s3 went subscription based?... i´m sorry but that´s pretty narrow minded.

LFS won´t decrease it´s database... people will still be able to play s2 and s1 as they are playing now..
Database, huh?

Anyway, that's exactly what he is saying, except the thing about the database, which he didn't say. Making LFS subscription based would hurt its regular players, it would hurt its future sales. I have been playing this game for years, but if they started charging by the month I'd just go play rFactor instead. Subscription is not an ideal, it's a necessity for games which require a routine investment to maintain their infrastructure. Plus the whole idea seems to be based on the fact the LFS devs are suffering economically, which they are not. LFS does fine within its current business model, it needs a monthly subscription as much as it needs Nordschleife.

[vf1-xj220]

would you really go playing rfactor... knowing that there is almost no support for the engine, seeing no improvements even where there was a huge development in the engine when GTR2 was released?... Rfactor is no longer an active developer-community simulation enviroment as LFS it is...

you would still enjoy new features and even more content provided by the funding of the S3 project..., you won't stop playing S2.

i love customization too, that's Rfactor's main point... but it's also it's doom... the engine had to be heavily adapted in order to recieve the enormous amount of features that GTR2 involved... and it's not retroactively compatible... that means.. if Rfactor releases an Rfactor update based on the improvements made in GTR2, almost nothing from the previous version would work, at least not until people start updating the mods... and there are too many good mods that will be trashed with a new engine release... people will still play the old version to play with old mods, and it'll be a mess

i'd rather play with 1 highly developed ficticious model, than with 20 poorly developed, would be real, models.

GTR2 i belive you... for a while, Rfactor, you won't go there definetively, everyone who's played LFS seriously would never go back to another sim, unless it's heavily redone, or just for an exclusive mod... i used to play with the F1 Mod for Rfactor... i really didi't like the sound of LFS's F1, never played with it... until the day came... we raced for over 3 hours... and Rfactor's F1 is no more... plus, there is no further confirmed development on the F1 series for Rfactor... there are a lot of good mods too... but in the end, nothing beats LFS for the real complete and well done racing experience.

the problem is that everyone wants more, and they don't want to give a penny for it... i think it's unfair after everything that the developers of this wonderful game are doing for us... and if they are not suffering economically, what? do you want to wait until they do?, come on... this might had started as a hobby, but now it's a full time job, and it's a becoming business, why nobody wants to support them with a fee... i could be a single pound and we have people crying over it... what would you doo with one single can of beer less per month... and no, you are taking just one drink for tonight, not two... and for those who don't go out like me, it's a bottle of soda. it's almost worthless, but in masses is a steady and "PREDICTABLE" income, wich is what every business model needs.

[danowat]

Bottomline........
If the dev's NEED extra funding for development, I am sure they would ask for it.
If anyone feels the need to chuck some beans the devs way, stick some credit on your LFS account, or buy someone in need a voucher.
They obviously do not need/want/require any extra funding ATM, otherwise they would be making in-roads into organising such a thing.
I think the question, "If LFS went subsricption based, would you carry on using it?" is a good question, personally........hmm.......it's a tough one, on the one hand I have gotten way, way, WAY more than my £24's worth, and wouldn't mind paying more for it, but on the other hand, I could really do without another "utility bill" LOL ;)

[vf1-xj220]

here is something i just realized by answering to a PM just a while ago...

imagine that S1 and S2 licenses might be able to be released as Free for everyone to download, just thanks to those who can spend 2 or 3 miserable pounds a month, that's possible with a predictable and steady income... come on guys.. that's pocket money for anyone who can afford a computer and an internet connection... internet uplink you can pay yes... but why not LFS? what's your internet bill? is it somewhere near 3 pounds? or should i add an extra 0?

You can buy a package... and pay £25 a year with discounts i don't know, if you managed to get a credit card to buy the game, why can't you now for something like this?... i personally don't have a CC, and i had to ask my girlfriend, almost everyone has some way to get it...

the main problem here is that EVERYONE wants everything free... and that's just not right... just lookout for cracks for S2... atrocious

[w126]

the main problem here is that EVERYONE wants everything free...This is not true. It's a market and people evaluate what they get for their money and compare it with other options. The current LFS pricing scheme is what the developers wanted, obviously while staying within the market constraints.

[AndroidXP]

Please, stop trying to improve LFS' business model. Many people have tried to argue about that, and in the worst case it ended with Scawen getting kinda pissed off. It's completely their decision, and your essays will not change the tiniest thing about it.

[steve]

If LFS decides to go pay2play like WoW or something, I'm afraid me and about a million others would quit playing online, and as for the offline stuff, LFS doesn't run offline here at all. Id sell off my account for whatever I could get for it, it would be useless to me. And the amount of time and money I've put into building a cockpit upgrading and such (just for LFS alone) all down the drain.

pay2play, I don't think so

[vf1-xj220]

i'd appreciate that anyone who wants to give an oppinion here, to read at least half of the posts...

people here seem to understand that if you don't pay you won't play...

S1 users can prove that the impact of S2 was nothing but improvements and wonders... and to the few ones who decided not to upgrade their S1 account to S2, still are enjoying the benefits of the s2 developments... what's wrong with that?

everyone would be able to play as they are doing right now... why everyone is complaining and saying that they will quit the game... why would you quit a game that you payed for, and that still recieves constant improvements? i would like someone to answer me this.

[Thunderhead]

S1 users can prove that the impact of S2 was nothing but improvements and wonders... and to the few ones who decided not to upgrade their S1 account to S2, still are enjoying the benefits of the s2 developments... what's wrong with that?

everyone would be able to play as they are doing right now... why everyone is complaining and saying that they will quit the game... why would you quit a game that you payed for, and that still recieves constant improvements? i would like someone to answer me this.


1.How can you be so sure that everyone would be able to play as they can now? And do you really think that devs would give updated content to everyone,in case LFS goes subscription based?

Answer: NO. Whenever you go that way, it's the subscribers who you want to cater for,and not the nonsubscribers(and that would be anyone who sticks with his s1 or S2 licence and does not subscribe,atleast how much I can understand from your "vision")
Why? Because,they are the main source of the income now,therfore you cater to them or no $$$$ for you. And you seriosly think all of those who dont subscribe,wont get eventually either:

a) subscribe.

b) be told to GTFO.

c) will GTFO on their own.

2. This just came to my mind.Server hosters: in LFS,it is the community,that provides the servers. AFAIK,all subscription based games have their own servers. And " Hey, we are paying for he servers,we are paying for the bandwith,yet you are the only one geting the $$$$?" Sadly,unless LFS gets its own official servers(wich is not posssible,due to the cost for 600 servers would be astronomical,at least I think :tilt: ),this might happen.


3. What makes you think that I don't have the right to stop playing LFS if I want to,or anybody else who who paid their 24 pounds/an s2 licence was given to them ect? Newsflash: I,and anbody else,has that right,for any reason that might be,including these:

-LFS goes subscription based.
-something better comes along.
-being bored of it.
-ect.

And to end,just a little thought:

Imagine this:
-LFS goes subscription based.
-Something that is atlest similar(or better) to LFS' physics and has great netcode comes along,but it is not subscription based.
-now lets compute in the fact that:
-nunber of users are from countres where a fiver isn't exactly change.
-This "something" is ready available from stores,or atleast is not subscription based.


Question:

How many users will GTFO from LFS,if LFS goes subscription based,if given a an alternative that s good,or even better,but not subscrition based? I think ALOT.

But again,I'm just a cheapskate from eastern yurop that probably wouldn't gladly donate some cash for LFS if he had a way,and a surplus of it,and devs needed it,right?:tilt:

Right????

[Bob Smith]

Can the LFS going subscription based discussion be dropped, I really can't ever see it happening, there is no need (financially or otherwise) for the devs to do it, and it is unlikely to be good for the community size, either. The possibility is so remote it's not worth getting worked up about.

[vf1-xj220]

i really feel sad for the lack of trust and faith that some of those who have posted here have towarards the developers... i don't know what kind of people are you used to Thunderhead... but i think the developers of this game are NOT that kind...

then... let me at least ask for an optional subscription for those who feel gratitude towards the game developers...

and yes... i would like this discussion to be closed..

[danowat]

then... let me at least ask for an optional subscription for those who feel gratitude towards the game developers...

No need, as I have already said, if you feel the urge to contribute more, then you can quite easily add credit to your account, or buy some deserving demo user a license voucher.

[delray25]

vf1-xj220

Oh no, we're not closing this discussion just yet. I wanna give my 2 cents worth now.

Really, if you are that convinced the devs need extra funds, why don't you just donate something? You could do that quietly on your own, no need to involve others.

Regarding the subscription thing, I am utterly convinced that will never ever happen. Why am I convinced? I feel some kind of philosophical kinship, just doing LFS for many years, following its development, I just don't think its in the devs mind set. I am aware this may exist only in my imagination. But it feels right.

I also think you misinterpret some postings here, I don't see any lack of trust or faith towards the devs in the postings here. Some people would pay, others wouldn't. You'd expect that.

Lastly, I just don't think its appropriate to start a post speculating about their financial business model, or to call on others to provide voluntary financial support. It really is none of my business.

Maybe you are projecting your experience as a business owner?

The devs will let us know how they want things to be, when they feel it is time to do so. As indeed they have in the past.

I think you are a bit out of order.

[vf1-xj220]

i'm not convinced that they "need" the extra funds... i'm convinced that they "could" use the extra funds...

the development of this game has been really smooth since s1... paced yet really fast, and i think there might have been lot of ideas hindered by the lack of funds... skipped really fast just because they are not viable or essencial...

the most close example is the bandwith usage for the high res skins... everyone want's high res skins but traffic costs money, and i'm sure that's not the only thing that it's requiring constant income...

in another post where people is annoyed at skin thiefs... a solution could be that the player tags his skin as private, so when another player downloads them, it downloads to the memory of the computer, not to the harddrive... but that increases bandwith... wich increases costs... just an example.

[AndroidXP]

Just... arrrgh. Scawen has stated multiple times already that the money is of course nice, but more money will NOT speed up development or magically spawn new features. The limit here is manpower, it's as simple as that. And before you ask, no Scawen will NOT hire additional programmers. He wants to do HIS project at HIS pace and earn HIS money the way HE wants. Any time spent thinking about solutions to problems that don't exist wastes not only your time, but also ours when we have to read it or inform you over and over again that any discussion about this is futile. Just accept it already.

This topic is getting really old now :geezer:

[migf1]

Things are quite simple imho, anyone wanting to further support the devs, should simply donate an amount of his liking.

As for the remote possibilty of having a subscription based S3, I agree with those who argue that the user base will drop dramatically. Actually, I think it would be a commercial suicide.

The argument saying that S1 & S2 uses will remain unchanged is pretty much invalid, since everyone wants the new thing (if it's availabe) but not everyone will be happy to pay monthly for it... it's not the amount of the subscription, it's the policy (attitude) that repells. Sim-racing simply doesnt's work that way all those years. And always there will be at least one free alternative.

Don't forget that LFS is a hell of a simulator, but it also lacks a hell lot of features before it can be characterized "full" (for example, ai, weather changes, night races, real-life tracks, visuals, replay rewinding -lol-, etc). If for example rfactor2 comes up with half of those missing features and offers free online racing with a decent physics engine, then no matter the initial cost, it will tear a subscription-based lfs apart.

[AeoIus]

Subscription based would turn me away from LFS. I may have a month where I'm able to play a lot or a month where I hardly touch my PC.

The latter happens quite a lot and as such not a single subscription game has been in my gamelist ever (except in beta testing). The time vs cost is usually a very bad investment for me.

So I'm happy with the way it is now and as mentioned before, you can better donate by buying vouchers then anything else. More players will come in the game, which means more fun and maybe they'll return the favor by either advertising this amazing game/community and/or buying someone else a voucher instead.

[Electrik Kar]

I'll also say I'm not too keen on the idea. Having to renew a subscription every month or so gets in the way of playing the game. Like topping up your phone card or paying your electricity bill- it's a chore. Even the high-res skins option, which I have no problems paying for, I haven't actually bothered yet because I'm pretty lazy when it comes to things like this.

There's another racing sim which will most likely run on a subscription system- iRacing, so it may not be an incompatible thing with sims, but we'll see. It kindof turns me off. I don't want to 'top up' my games all the time.

There are other ways to help out LFS and the devs, as others have already pointed out.

[madmat28]

but more money will NOT speed up development or magically spawn new features.

This seems to be a misunderstanding to you and most of the other posters - vf1 wasn´t intending to speed up development or to ask for features in the first place.
There´s not a single line stating that.
Read before bash.

All he did was expressing that he cares about the project itself and wonders how the makers can afford to keep it up.
And the whole subscription thing was just one idea of many possible,
so relax.

I can understand his concern, I wouldn´t wanna see LFS go away neither.

Who would ?

[AndroidXP]

This seems to be a misunderstanding to you and most of the other posters - vf1 wasn´t intending to speed up development or to ask for features in the first place.
There´s not a single line stating that.
Read before bash.
i'm not convinced that they "need" the extra funds... i'm convinced that they "could" use the extra funds...

the development of this game has been really smooth since s1... paced yet really fast, and i think there might have been lot of ideas hindered by the lack of funds... skipped really fast just because they are not viable or essencial...Now if that isn't "if the devs had more money, we'd have more features - hey, let's give the devs more money so we get more features", I don't know either.

[Dennis93]

I actually think , Devs, are happy about what they came up with , since they're only like 3 persons, i think The Handicap from SimBin to this is 99.99999999999% , and this game is Waaaay better

[zeugnimod]

Well the only way to make LFS not go away is make it better and that way grow the userbase of it.

And what do you think they are working at? Make it worse? :really:

[bbman]

And what do you think they are working at? Make it worse? :really:

In his little narrow point of view it can't get any worse, because it's not like rFactor... :rolleyes:

[tristancliffe]

grow the userbase of it. Oh my, I hope not too much. The last thing we want is casual gamers! It's a simulation, and should be made so it only appeals to nerds (like me).

[The Very End]

Oh my, I hope not too much. The last thing we want is casual gamers! It's a simulation, and should be made so it only appeals to nerds (like me).

Lol, let us for gods sake hope that :schwitz:

[vf1-xj220]

Theres no point in having a subscription model when there is NO features.


i agree that the game in the actual stage of development doesn´t need a subscription model...

but man... LFS is THE best racing simulator, although i´ve never played NetKar Pro... but damn... no features? are you really a licensed racer? LFS has features that NO OTHER GAME has... please.. tell me of some other game that has unique features like this one.., for example tyre deformation and propietary tyre grip model...

up till now the only game i know that has unique characteristics is GTR2, animated 3d Crew for the trackside for example.. i don´t know about the physics acurracy when it´s raining...but it´s a feat to have rain in the game...

btw... is NetKar Pro worth trying?... i´ve always had the curiosity of trying it and i´ve heard it´s madness...

[Electrik Kar]

The last thing we want is casual gamers! It's a simulation, and should be made so it only appeals to nerds
/EK turns off his cynic button...

I wouldn't be surprised if the arcade racer genre ended up giving way to more complex simulations sometime in the near future. The former has been done to death a million times, but true proper sims can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. I think big reason for that is that racing games/sims have been limited by technology and the lack of a practical solution to simulating tire physics. But I'd wager people are becoming more and more demanding of what to expect in a racing title, physics being high on their list of concerns because they really do want to feel like they're actually driving a car.

The problem is that a lot of people are probably pretty misinformed as to what constitutes realistic behavior in a driving sim. But the fact that many 'light' sims are actually marketed as 'the most realistic driving experience ever' means that driving realism is what people are actually looking for in a driving game.

I dunno. Thought I'd just type that out because I'm in a very non-cynical mood tonight. Maybe the arcade racer will reign supreme for ever. Who knows... :)

I've gone off topic. Yay!

[deggis]

Just look at Gran Turismo 5. What kind of game can be made with a big budget, backing of a big company (Sony), and hundreds of licensed cars. A drivers heaven. The only thing LFS does better than GT is online. And even that is coming to GT5. It will have online. With licensed cars, on licensed tracks.
Only? I just came from the future and I played GT5 and I guarantee in physics wise it's not going to get much higher than GT4. Yeah, now it will have cockpit views and uber graphics but it's still a game made for masses which means it will take lots of shortcuts in realism to make it easy enough.

[vf1-xj220]

hehe... looks like mike need some reading classes.. i said UNIQUE features...

EVERY other game has real tracks
EVERY other game has real cars
A LOT of games have the SAME physics engine
FEW games have a realistic tyre simulation model
at least 2 games have day-night cycle

damn.. please pay attention to what i say... UNIQUE means that no other simulator or game has...

i forgot the progessive graphic deformation model for damage too :) but i think forza2 has something like that now

[Gener_AL (UK)]

hehe... looks like mike need some reading classes.. i said UNIQUE features...

EVERY other game has real tracks
EVERY other game has real cars
A LOT of games have the SAME physics engine
FEW games have a realistic tyre simulation model
at least 2 games have day-night cycle


LFS is unique truly in all those aspects.

My vision of LFS is that it is used by millions of people online. That it creates its own genre. Massive online racing sim.
The counter-strike of racing games

I hope it does become massive, but as i mentioned in another post , LFS needs Racers not users. Counterstrike is worst example i would of chosen, its a poor simulator.

And getting to the topic starters question, Id stop playing ... i think if it became subscription based , i am_not paying for that. that my friend is the way of the coperation. Before i start digging deeper into the reasons why , just remember not everyone can spend a night on LFS every other night , maybe once a week or heaven forbid, once or twice a month :x. Not everyone has money to throw around , i know i dont. When you have a family (which i dont) or you have lots of bills (i do) and have no job (like me) money is somthing that increases in value personally.Now just imagine that all games were like this for a second ....... I play only a few games now online, LFS Supreme Commander and DoD:Source. now imagine they cost £3 each to play each month thats £108 a year .... anyways

Best things in life are free anyway :nod:

Anyway I hope the devs dont ever think about doing this , and even if they did its their choice. but to try and arge for reasons why is just a lose lose affair in my humble opinion.

[migf1]

hehe... looks like mike need some reading classes.. i said UNIQUE features...

EVERY other game has real tracks
EVERY other game has real cars
A LOT of games have the SAME physics engine
FEW games have a realistic tyre simulation model
at least 2 games have day-night cycle

damn.. please pay attention to what i say... UNIQUE means that no other simulator or game has...

i forgot the progessive graphic deformation model for damage too :) but i think forza2 has something like that now
I hope you don't misunderstand me, but you seem to seriously underestimate the strong points of LFS's competition... which is not a good thing in my point of view. For example, the tyre deformation feature you mentioned in another post as being UNIQUE to LFS, already exists (or existed) in games like Virtual Grand Prix on the Mac, as well as Richard Burns Rallye and X Motor Racing on the PC.

Now don't get me wrong, I happen to be one of the founding members of the GVRteam, which practically is the absolute and only point of reference of LFS in Greece, which means I love, promote and advertise the sim. But this doesn't mean that LFS 's competition is worthless. On the contrary, LFS lacks crucial features already availabe in the competition (unique or not shouldn't and doesn't really matter) some of which would really boost LFS's popularity (real-life tracks for example or changable weather or a more detailed damage model).

The above is not me complaining for the devs, it is just me trying to show that some of your arguing so far (presented as "facts") are not so... valid as you may think ;)

[Storm_Cloud]

I think that S3 should be a bit more expensive. I've spent hundreds of happy hours on this sim so far for less than the price of a night out, so in value terms it is ridiculously cheap.

On the other hand, a new S3 player will already have to pay £36.00, so any increase on the S3 portion might put off new players or they may just go to S2 and we are left with a split community.

[FlintFredstone]

I think that S3 should be a bit more expensive. I've spent hundreds of happy hours on this sim so far for less than the price of a night out, so in value terms it is ridiculously cheap.

On the other hand, a new S3 player will already have to pay £36.00, so any increase on the S3 portion might put off new players or they may just go to S2 and we are left with a split community.

I agree totally with that, i think an S2 license holder paying £24 for S3 but a new license holder buying for £36, what we get is very cheap, this would ofcourse bring out the vocal 5% who say that theyve been cheated/robbed etc.

Simon

[tristancliffe]

I get the impression Mike that LFS isn't really for you, and you don't understand the driving principles behind it.

[Alric]

I get the impression Mike that LFS isn't really for you, and you don't understand the driving principles behind it.


I agree. It's not about doing things that are different to GT5. You don't seem to get LFS. I have plenty of friends that don't get LFS either yet play GT4 all the time. They say LFS is too hard and too realistic and so it becomes not fun. But myself as a true racing enthusiast I enjoy the realistic physics and can't wait for more. Realism isn't about a list of real life car's.

LFS fills the gap in the market where people find games like GT4 boring and unrealistic. LFS is the only game I enjoy playing more now than I did 3years ago. All my other games are on a dusty shelf never to be played again.

Long live LFS. :nod:

[mattlikespeoples]

I'm still curious as to how the devs are.:shrug:

[GP4Flo]

What about they are (still) on holiday?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

I think that S3 should be a bit more expensive. I've spent hundreds of happy hours on this sim so far for less than the price of a night out, so in value terms it is ridiculously cheap.

On the other hand, a new S3 player will already have to pay £36.00, so any increase on the S3 portion might put off new players or they may just go to S2 and we are left with a split community.

It reallly won't be a big deal, especially if the license system is refined so that staged content is automatically visible to the correct license level in game. Then all we have is one single sim with 3 levels of content access, and if the sim handles it seamlessly then it wouldn't be a problem.

I would even suggest that servers with unavailable content show up in the server list for everyone, but are greyed out if inaccessable. This would show lower licensed players what they are missing as well.

I would ALSO suggest that each stage of content be available separately, so that those that plan to budget for the sim in stages aren't limited to buying the stages in order. This way we have a very accessible, unified, well structured and reasonable method of delivering multiple interchangable levels of content to the consumer, which means that any level of budget can get started on LFS.

[migf1]

Now, that sounds like a brilliant idea! :thumb:

[jjones]

It reallly won't be a big deal, especially if the license system is refined so that staged content is automatically visible to the correct license level in game. Then all we have is one single sim with 3 levels of content access, and if the sim handles it seamlessly then it wouldn't be a problem.

I would even suggest that servers with unavailable content show up in the server list for everyone, but are greyed out if inaccessable. This would show lower licensed players what they are missing as well.

I would ALSO suggest that each stage of content be available separately, so that those that plan to budget for the sim in stages aren't limited to buying the stages in order. This way we have a very accessible, unified, well structured and reasonable method of delivering multiple interchangable levels of content to the consumer, which means that any level of budget can get started on LFS.

Now that sounds like u no what ur talking about, good suggestion, :thumb: