Racing Line affects Grip

[NSX_FReeDoM]

i read a article abt comparison of racing simulators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_racing_simulators) on wiki recently..
and realize that in live for speed racing line does not affects grip.. which is quite...well.. unreal..:shrug:
normal racing line should have more grip as cars drives over it (more car drives over it = more rubber = more grip)... the "Dirty" line provides a opportunity for overtaking...but there should be risks for locking up the brakes as there are less rubber on the dirty line..... i reli hope to see this improvement in the near feature...:)

[spanks]

excellent suggestion +1

really would change how overtaking goes :P

[danowat]

Yup, it's a big thing missing from LFS, so +1 from me (p.s. I am SURE it's been mentioned before though)

[lizardfolk]

I can definitely see this lacking in Kyoto +1

[Cappy333]

I agree with this, as long as the difference in grip is not unrealistically large.

Do you guys think marbles (little chunks of rubber found off racing line that act like ball bearings) should also be included? I think marbles would be difficult to model and computationally expensive if they are done as individual particles.

[scania]

Wrong post, sorry

[NSX_FReeDoM]

Yup, it's a big thing missing from LFS, so +1 from me (p.s. I am SURE it's been mentioned before though)
i have checked the Suggested Improvement Log (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2626)be4 i posted this thread...:shrug:

[Dalek0220]

+1, good suggestion.

[AstroBoy]

Definitly seems like something good. Id go for it just hope lag doesnt effect the build up or anything like that.

[KeiichiRX7]

+1

[Dalarna]

+1

Good suggestion.

[TFalke55]

+1

Would feel more realistic (I hope we will not get too close to F1 -> No overtaking on track when sun shines/track dry)

[Moonchild LT]

Am... I was thinking about this question too after I read wiki coupla weeks ago. But never thought it would be a good idea - thought it would make it more realistic :really:

It would be lovely to have extreme weathers in LFS as discussed on another thread - RAIN or something like that - Driving on a wet track and different tire types.

Car damages aren't realistic either

[The Very End]

+1 :)
Great idea, but there is a downside with it -
It would create mayhem in T1 when everyone is everywhere, and when someone is trying a late braking outside the idle line they would end up sliding or not beeing able to brake in the corner, and it would cause a pilup :shrug:

[-M-]

It would be great.
Maybe the hotlap spr files will be bigger :D I can imagine people doing laps and laps to maximize grip, then change their tyres and try to do a fast lap :tilt:
Online racing would be more interesting... Fastest line should not be always the same because all people doesn't drive in the same line, so in each server the rubber will be in different zones... Looks funny :nod:
Maybe it can be an option of no resetting trak grip when restarting race also.
And of course it would be interesting to have less grip when someone get back in the track with dirty tyres, or when someone crash and lets a bit of oil in the track (OK, we will need first more realistic damage and more flag types, but dreaming is free).

[The Very End]

And when we talk about the rubber, it should be implented that if you spin on the gras right outside the track, there would be a big possibility that some of the grass would ended up in the racing line, and that would decrease the grip where the rubber is a lot.

But thats probally planned allready, just me that are too lazy to search :tilt:

[Woz]

Actually is has come up many many times before both here and rsc. But yep

+1

We already have visible racing line so it should be able to piggyback off that code.

[dawesdust_12]

I swear that it did increase the grip from S1, but that might be an illusion.

[The Very End]

I swear that it did increase the grip from S1, but that might be an illusion.

So you saying that it was implented before?
Maybe it was, but they desded to take it back, and improve it?
I don`t know, because I can`t remember that there was anything like that in S1 :S Well, but as I said, maybe they are improving it, new codes and stuff to S3, but would be fun to hear what the DEV`s think about this.

[dawesdust_12]

I dunno, it might have been my imagination, but I swear that it did make a certain difference.

[Blackout]

I dunno, it might have been my imagination, but I swear that it did make a certain difference.

It didn't, it was your imagination. It might have made it easier to pick the fast racing line though.

[sinbad]

Good suggestion of course, but it's vital that it's done right first time.

Any part of the track used regularly must become clean/rubbered, not just the racing line. The inside into t1 at BL1 or FE1, for example, would be virtually as grippy as the racing line, considering the use it gets.

Then we'd need some kind of track state information, or a "time passed between sessions" indicator in conjunction with a full race weekend simulation and stored track state info. Perhaps time passed between sessions could be a server option, so a league race happening immediately after the qual session, could be happening the day after in LFS. Whilst a public server could run races that happen one after another in LFS too.

Tracks in dustier environments like Fern Bay would be more affected, and wind would have an effect too.

Certainly not as simple as clean line, dirty line, and if it's done to the exaggerated extent that the dirty tyres initially were, it wouldn't be much fun at all.

[tristancliffe]

GTR's faked 'LiveTrack Techology' did exactly this - the racing line (a predefined line, not based at all on racing lines used) got grippier relative to the outside of the track.

It was considered groundbreaking by many reviewers. Ground breakingly bad though, as a lot of the 'default, pre-defined' lines were wrong, and the effect wasn't realistic at all. People on the GTR forum loved it, as they believe anything you tell them (e.g. GTR is realistic).

[jaohard]

During a downpour the difference would decrease until after the rain, then the marbles would slowly build up again (or quickly build up if all cars are on softs) :thumb: - Also as mentioned, the difference should not be too severe, and should increase towards the end of a race.

[xpjames]

Then we'd need some kind of track state information, or a "time passed between sessions" indicator in conjunction with a full race weekend simulation and stored track state info. Perhaps time passed between sessions could be a server option, so a league race happening immediately after the qual session, could be happening the day after in LFS. Whilst a public server could run races that happen one after another in LFS too.



It would be good to save the grip and let it build up over time on the server. Although then it would change each server you go on and you may have to use a different racing line, even though it is the same track.

Unless there is a way for it to be saved on the master LFS server and then downloaded and updated on to each individual server.

Then you could also incorporate track wear and tear on the Tarmac and get dips and potholes in the track - and then maybe new bits of resurfacing on the track and different bits of track vary with grip depending on how new or old they are.

[N!sse]

Its a great idea, but whit the bits of rubber and pot holes, would be a big thing to do, or then it would be the same spots, and then its like the "normal" track after a while.. Dont think you ever can make a system that wont pick the same places to make potholes, or to place rubber bits.. And if that could be done, it would take alot of programming i think.. But a nice idea though, could be great fun :)

[BlueFlame]

Definitly seems like something good. Id go for it just hope lag doesnt effect the build up or anything like that.

Why would it make lag? It will be modeled into the physics of the game and via the Tracks.

The only thing that can lag, is P2P protocols, such as chat, and online racing itself.

If your talking about FPS lag, i can't see it affecting that either, only those Rubber 'marbles' talked about before, they certainly would.

[wark]

+1 I'd also like to see different surfaces have different grip characteristics, i.e. concrete more slippery than black top.

[Cappy333]

Why do you say concrete is more slippery than asphalt? This site shows concrete is more grippy even when wet. http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/frictioncoeff.htm

Since concrete has lower surface roughness than asphalt, concrete probably is less grippy and has a higher propensity to cause hydroplaning in heavy rain.

About rubber on the racing line, I was assuming it would be reset after every race. This way everyone knows what to expect from the track without having to do warm up laps.

[XCNuse]

i have checked the Suggested Improvement Log (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2626)be4 i posted this thread...:shrug:

Hard to believe, must have been skipped because I've seen torrents of these threads at some time before.

[Gunn]

During a downpour the difference would decrease until after the rain, then the marbles would slowly build up again (or quickly build up if all cars are on softs) :thumb: - Also as mentioned, the difference should not be too severe, and should increase towards the end of a race.The thing is, in real life the difference is often very severe between the racing line and the mostly unused parts of the track.

This suggestion has been mentioned many times over the years and I'm in favour of it. However I reckon a great many people will not be in favour of it if it gets implemented realistically. Marbles (some bigger than golf balls) and other debris off the racing line is very unforgiving even for good drivers. Currently people overtake wherever they want, with a rubbered-in track that includes debris the safe overtaking areas will be reduced dramatically. I can see cars under steering off the circuit where they once had complete control and good traction.
Great for sim enthusiasts, tough for the casual racer or arcade jockey.

[Woz]

LFS already includes an updating visible line which changes based on the cars paths. It is probably processed client side at the moment so would need to sync across all clients. Then its just grip levels after that.

A live track would transform lfs. I can already see the forum posts asking to make it optional etc. lol

[sinbad]

The thing is, in real life the difference is often very severe between the racing line and the mostly unused parts of the track.

This suggestion has been mentioned many times over the years and I'm in favour of it. However I reckon a great many people will not be in favour of it if it gets implemented realistically. Marbles (some bigger than golf balls) and other debris off the racing line is very unforgiving even for good drivers. Currently people overtake wherever they want, with a rubbered-in track that includes debris the safe overtaking areas will be reduced dramatically. I can see cars under steering off the circuit where they once had complete control and good traction.
Great for sim enthusiasts, tough for the casual racer or arcade jockey.

It all depends on how the system works. If track state is transferred from one session, or race, to the next, then it wouldn't take very long for every overtaking area to get rubbered in, and marbles/tyre debris wouldn't get the chance to build up in those areas either. When does the track "reset", I guess it has to some time? What state does it "reset" to? Brand new tarmac? Post rain-storm? Post qualifying session?

I think this is the sort of thing which loads of the hardcore gang will jump and down with glee about, whether the implementation is accurate or not. Just like loads did with the ludicrous dirty tyre ice dancing we got early on in S2.

[xpjames]

LFS already includes an updating visible line which changes based on the cars paths.


Well...I didn't know that! You learn something new everyday.

[CodieMorgan]

And its probably gonna happen anyhow...

... even Scawen must've seen the same wiki!

[TFalke55]

And its probably gonna happen anyhow...

... even Scawen must've seen the same wiki!

yep...
think so aswell...
LFS 's going to change (nearly) all reds to green :D

[The Very End]

Well...I didn't know that! You learn something new everyday.

I didn`t know that eighter. But is it very easy to see that? Because I can`t remember to have noticed any very special changes on the track surface look out in races :/

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

Yes it is pretty easy to see, with a race of more than a few laps. Even short races with many cars make it fairly plain to see. You notice it most when the track surface experienes large loads, for example going up into the hill chicane at Aston - the bottom area always becomes significantly darker as the race progresses.

[The Very End]

You accidentally don`t mean skind marks or?

[Ball Bearing Turbo]

No I don't mean skidmarks. :tilt:

The actual tarmac darkens, visible as a wide band of ... well ... darkend tarmac on the areas that get driven over the most.

There is the option to disable this BTW, so make sure your setting is set to "all cars". You can turn the updating off, have it update based on your car only, or have it update based on the path of all the cars. It's in the options screen, but I'm not at home so I can't point you to the exact menu - but it's there for sure... The option is called "update path" I think, or something similar.

[sinbad]

You can also increase the effect by setting "Update Path" to a higher number than 2 (iirc, never bothered myself), in the cfg.txt. edit:Or maybe it's the Rubber Lay and Rubber Dark settings. Anyway, someone will tell you, and I'm sure you've seen pictures where the racing line is stupidly dark, nearly black.

[The Very End]

No I don't mean skidmarks. :tilt:

The actual tarmac darkens, visible as a wide band of ... well ... darkend tarmac on the areas that get driven over the most.

There is the option to disable this BTW, so make sure your setting is set to "all cars". You can turn the updating off, have it update based on your car only, or have it update based on the path of all the cars. It's in the options screen, but I'm not at home so I can't point you to the exact menu - but it's there for sure... The option is called "update path" I think, or something similar.

Ahh, ok!
Now I got it, thanks for the answer.
I have allways wondered what the "update path" thing in option was, and now I know it, thank you :)

If someone got time they maybe could post a comparioson picture? :)

[Woz]

Ahh, ok!
Now I got it, thanks for the answer.
I have allways wondered what the "update path" thing in option was, and now I know it, thank you :)

If someone got time they maybe could post a comparioson picture? :)

Go to a short track like FE1. Set a full field of AI and leave them to clock up 10+ laps. You will soon see it. Because they all tend to follow very similar paths when they "bed in" you will see it far far clearer than when a full field of humans race. :)

It all depends on how the system works. If track state is transferred from one session, or race, to the next, then it wouldn't take very long for every overtaking area to get rubbered in, and marbles/tyre debris wouldn't get the chance to build up in those areas either. When does the track "reset", I guess it has to some time? What state does it "reset" to? Brand new tarmac? Post rain-storm? Post qualifying session?

I think this is the sort of thing which loads of the hardcore gang will jump and down with glee about, whether the implementation is accurate or not. Just like loads did with the ludicrous dirty tyre ice dancing we got early on in S2.

Being from the "hardcore gang" yep, it is something I would like to see BUT do understand it will raise the learning curve for the noob even higher as they try to get to grips with LFS. I would like to see it done right though.

As for reset. Would make sense to reset at the start of qualify or at the start of a new race if no qualify was selected.

Not a full reset though. More it would be like after a track sweep or rain in that the rubber is still there but the marbles are gone so the difference in grip is smaller. As the marbles build again over the race the difference in grip would get bigger again until the next reset.

[CodieMorgan]

No I don't mean skidmarks. :tilt:

The actual tarmac darkens, visible as a wide band of ... well ... darkend tarmac on the areas that get driven over the most.

There is the option to disable this BTW, so make sure your setting is set to "all cars". You can turn the updating off, have it update based on your car only, or have it update based on the path of all the cars. It's in the options screen, but I'm not at home so I can't point you to the exact menu - but it's there for sure... The option is called "update path" I think, or something similar.


Yeah..

This is also something that can deliberately paint incorrect lines if a server is full of noob specificly trying to follow the dark area (warping it off further :D)

[LFSn00b]

Well...I didn't know that! You learn something new everyday.RACELINEALPHA.dds ;)
Paint it red - you see it better :)

[Glenn67]

Being from the "hardcore gang" yep, it is something I would like to see BUT do understand it will raise the learning curve for the noob even higher as they try to get to grips with LFS. I would like to see it done right though.

It would raise the learning curve yes, but it might also increase peoples speed of learning a track because it forces them to think racing line, line, line :scratchch

[The Very End]

RACELINEALPHA.dds ;)
Paint it red - you see it better :)

Lol yea hehe, would be funny to see an increasing red line in the corners xD

[dawesdust_12]

You could have it in real life, just hit some wildlife while driving...

</bad taste>