What happened with the DEVs?

[Delerue]

Is the game still alive? I can't believe that we haven't see any update since August 7; three months! Even a progress report... Any idea?

[dawesdust_12]

AFAIK, they are taking a rest after releasing S2 alpha then will continue work, we had for a period of about 4 months without updates, so calm down.

[cannonfodder]

They're working on a new patch. Did you completely miss this thread? http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2335

[avih]

actually, during the last month or so there have been at least 4 updates. latest version is p9, while the alpa version was p2 iirc. count for yourself. they don't release the patches as official untill everyone's satisfied with them (scawen and the ppl who test them that is)

[XCNuse]

lol are you kidding.. there has been 8 updates in like 2 weeks

[Delerue]

They're working on a new patch. Did you completely miss this thread? http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2335

Hmmmmm... Thanks. I haven't see it yet. I was waiting for an update in the website. I'll check it. ;)

[XCNuse]

:doh: dont look on the website, they dont update that for experimental patches, they release them here first and get feedback then once its all final and whatnot they'll update the main page

[Delerue]

actually, during the last month or so there have been at least 4 updates. latest version is p9, while the alpa version was p2 iirc. count for yourself. they don't release the patches as official untill everyone's satisfied with them (scawen and the ppl who test them that is)

You must be kidding, I'm sure. The game isn't released yet. We have a lot of serious problems: tyres physics, force feeback unfinisihed, poor sounds (specially with crashes), aerodynamic bugs and so much more. So, how can we be satisfied with all these problems? :(

[Anarchi-H]

You must be kidding, I'm sure. The game isn't released yet. We have a lot of serious problems: tyres physics, force feeback unfinisihed, poor sounds (specially with crashes), aerodynamic bugs and so much more. So, how can we be satisfied with all these problems? :(

Satisfied with them in respect of what the patches are trying to introduce / fix.

[Delerue]

:doh: dont look on the website, they dont update that for experimental patches, they release them here first and get feedback then once its all final and whatnot they'll update the main page

Hey, take it easy. Why I have to know this? I'm here only to know WTF happened, and now I know a little more. ;)

I haven't read the fixes of the these patches. They fixed the problems I've said before?

[tinyk]

You must be kidding, I'm sure. The game isn't released yet. We have a lot of serious problems: tyres physics, force feeback unfinisihed, poor sounds (specially with crashes), aerodynamic bugs and so much more. So, how can we be satisfied with all these problems? :(I see under your nick it says S1 license... have you tried S2 yet? I don't know if the new patches released affect S1 or not.

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~

[XCNuse]

nope; working on translation problems now; they probably wont work on those 'bugs' .. not really bugs in most respects, until they begin working on S3

[Gunn]

You must be kidding, I'm sure. The game isn't released yet. We have a lot of serious problems: tyres physics, force feeback unfinisihed, poor sounds (specially with crashes), aerodynamic bugs and so much more. So, how can we be satisfied with all these problems? :(What he is saying is that patches are only "test patches" until the patch can be released with confidence ie: after testing. For test patches you will need to check the forum, this has always been the way with LFS. Once the majority of issues have been solved with a test patch it may become a part of an official update. Official updates are posted on the main site when they are released.

If you would like to contribute to the testing process it is a good idea to check the forums from time to time for test patches. If you need to know more about "wtf happened to the Devs", checking the forum will also aid you in that respect.

[Delerue]

I see under your nick it says S1 license... have you tried S2 yet? I don't know if the new patches released affect S1 or not.

~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~


I won't buy a unfinished game, with so much bugs and things to make and fix. I can only test the demo or the almost-full version at crazy friend's home. ;)

[Delerue]

nope; working on translation problems now; they probably wont work on those 'bugs' .. not really bugs in most respects, until they begin working on S3

Are you trying to say that the problems that I've said before won't be fix at S2 stage?

[Tweaker]

Don't listen to XCNuse, his words are not a knowledgeable source. ;)

[Delerue]

Don't listen to XCNuse, his words are not a knowledgeable source. ;)

Thanks for that. I was crying here. :D

Hugs!

[sil3ntwar]

IMO there is nothing wrong with the crashing sounds. Could you elaborate more on what you dont like? And although i dont have an FF wheel i hear that the FF in LFS is better than most other games.

[Delerue]

IMO there is nothing wrong with the crashing sounds. Could you elaborate more on what you dont like? And although i dont have an FF wheel i hear that the FF in LFS is better than most other games.

I won't say anything. If you can realise that the crash sounds are insane, I'm so sorry. Furthermore, all the sounds are insane, and only a blind fan can't see that.

BTW, tell these people that GTR, rFactor e GT Legends exists, and have force feedback. Just do begin, LFS hasn't bumps simulated on force feedback. :(

[Breizh]

GTR & co aren't works in progress in public alpha.
LFS is working to be a thoroughly good sim, and only will be in final form comparable to final releases like GTR & co when S3 is done.. This is the backbone of everything to follow.

[B2B@300]

I for one am thankfull they didn't wait till S3 until they released LFS to the public, I would have missed all the fun I've had over the last year and a half :tilt:

I own about 80% or more of racing games and sims released on PC, and LFS is the only one to keep me playing for longer than three weeks :D

:schwitz: imagine if LFS still wasn't released at all, I'd be alot further along in my house renovations :razz: that's one thing for sure LOL

[Delerue]

GTR & co aren't works in progress in public alpha.
LFS is working to be a thoroughly good sim, and only will be in final form comparable to final releases like GTR & co when S3 is done.. This is the backbone of everything to follow.

Ok. The old and fashion fan-argument. What you have to say about the age of these games? I don't care about how many DEVs are envolved, I care about the final product; the game itself. And talking about it, we all have to agree that LFS, with more than three years (since alpha version), have a lot of bugs and unfinished things. On the other hand, we have GTR, rFactor and GT Legends, with better graphics, sounds, force feedback and physics. These games has better things with less time and price. And again: I don't care about how many DEVs are envolved and how much money they have. If we have a expansive game (and LFS, couting all the Stages, are one of the most expansives games ever), with eternal alpha stages, a lot of bugs and never a final product, so we have problems. That's what I think. But you can disagree, of course. ;)

What piss me off is that LFS has great potencial, and there are only a little things to make it a really good game (the things I said before). Other thing is that the fans can't say a impartial thoughts; they all like to protect the problems, like if they were sons. What's wrong with saying that LFS has real problems? :thumb:

That's all folks.

[Breizh]

Those games have licenses, cost more, and have more man-hours into them.
From the little that I've read of them, seeing as I'm no fan and don't go out of my way to read reviews instead of play things myself, those games aren't perfect either.

LFS development isn't eternal; can you back up what you're saying? Say, give the number of man-hours put into those games, and show a quantity/price ratio on both development and client side?
The tiered development, S1 thru S3 seems to always have been a plan.

But all that's moot... the real point is, it's fun, and online.. more than those games.. and it's not even finished yet.
About fanboyism and the importance of you being pissed, you're barking up the wrong tree I think. You oughta get in touch with Scawen & co and put them on the right track? Debating it here is in vain, but you surely knew that.

[Delerue]

Those games have licenses

I don't care about licenses or not; I care about the game itself.

cost more

No, wrong. All the games I've told about cost less than LFS. And LFS isn't finished yet, and is older than any other game (GTR, rFactor GTL).

and have more man-hours into them.

Again: I don't care about it. If the game is good, is good. If the game is bad, is bad. F*** about money and people envolved in the production. You said: "the real point is, it's fun". That's the main point. And the LFS must fix a lot of things (and make others) to be funny like the other games. ;)

LFS development isn't eternal; can you back up what you're saying?

Do you know any other game that have more then three years, sold licenses even in an unfinished stage? When you think that S3 will be finished? LFS will be very soon the most old-work-in-progress-expansive-sold-bug-game in the world.

Say, give the number of man-hours put into those games, and show a quantity/price ratio on both development and client side?

Again: f*** about the people envolved. You play the game, not the DEVs. And your math is wrong, again. ;)

Debating it here is in vain, but you surely knew that.

It won't be if people ask for the problems, instead of adulate all the things that DEVs makes. We have here people that spend money with problem things, and they like it. And if you said the real things here, you're crazy. Is insane, isn't? ;)

[Krane]

Do you know any other game that have more then three years, sold licenses even in an unfinished stage?
Umm... every EA game serie ever released? That's the way the industry works, you have x amount of time to make a game and when times up you wrap what you have and put the game out and then you start working on "Game 2: bla bla bla" if the 1st version wasn't total flop.

[Hoellsen]

Delerue: You got some valid points. But so do some of the others here. If you are not even willing to accept that some of your points are rightly criticized, there is not much sense in discussing them with you.

[ButterTyres]

We need to all chill out a bit here.

The game is unfinished. Everyone knows what needs doing, the community is expecting that most of the bugs you mention will be gone by the time the game is S2 final.

You say you dont care about the Devs and the work they have put in, well most of us in the community happen to actually care. So you come in here dismissing them against the likes of EA then you willl get some resistance from the community.

We have built up a respect for these people and their efforts over the years so thats why we protect the game and the devs where we can.

Also, LFS is cheaper than most games in most countries. Because the devs are mostly based in the UK then they have to sell the game in conversions of UK currency, which doesnt always work out better in some cases. There are plenty of Brazilian S2 licensed racers about so it cant be all that expensive.

You want to take a little time out before criticising people you dont know much about, also a subject I'll assume you dont know much about (the subject of coding a game from scratch without big-name help).

If you feel this game is too unfinished to pay for, then simple as this - go and play something else and STFU for a while. Plenty of people disagree with you and will continue to play the game and provide clear constructive criticism back to the devs to help get the game finished.

[AndroidXP]

On the other hand, we have GTR, rFactor and GT Legends, with better graphics, sounds, force feedback and physics.
Graphics: Fair game, that's pretty much a moot point. If you like oversaturated graphics plastered with DX9 effects then those games look better than LFS. Personally, I don't think so.

Sounds: Yeah, GTR & Co. really win here, although LFS gives more feedback what the engine does.

Force Feedback & Physics: Ok. If you really think that the FF or the physics of GTR & Co. are better and more believable, you really shouldn't play LFS. The first time I played one of those demos I immediately noticed the canned ISI engine. For a canned engine, the results are pretty good (for the casual gamer) but they are still canned.

Just play the NK demo. Or Richard Burns Rallye. Or LFS.
All of these have believable physics with believable reactions to your inputs. You immediately feel connected to the road. You feel like driving a vehicle. If you play any ISI game, then you feel like driving... no floating with a box of data curves.

[seggons]

People, you have told him what has happened to the devs, hes acknowledge that, so lets just move on? Anything from here on is going to be pure flaming at each other. Let him have his own opinion on the game. We all look at games in diffrent POV's.

[freebaSe]

Amen to that ButterTyres!

[ButterTyres]

People, you have told him what has happened to the devs, hes acknowledge that, so lets just move on? Anything from here on is going to be pure flaming at each other. Let him have his own opinion on the game. We all look at games in diffrent POV's.

That may be, but he keeps coming back for more :)

[KiDCoDEa]

Just do begin, LFS hasn't bumps simulated on force feedback. :(

excuse me? you have both microbumps and normal bumps. just play southcity. if u cant feel them in there, then the problem is on your side not in lfs. also lfs ff comes from physics 100%. just like the realtime tyre deformation (visually reduced to what the poly detail can show).
lfs tyre physics are simply the most advanced (by far) of any sim out there. 200 sampling points for rubber per car.
thats not saying all data it outputs is milimetrically correct yet. but good things aint easy and progress will go on. continuously. this is a wip game. wip deved and wip played. wip stands for work in progress. support in this game is better than in multimillion dollar games.
agora vai preparar umas caipirinhas com uma boa cachaça e muita lima pra nós dois, the baile funk is just starting.

[JJ72]

Well it's just that he is trying to find some gap to criticize the game in a manner that we had all seen before, but you gonna do eh? wake the dev up and point a gun into their head and force them to work? LFS will be short in terms of overall packaging and holistic presentation because of it's nature of development, but not the devs being lazy, if you can't acknowledge that or you don't care, then don't be bothered about updates and patches....you might drop by 2 years later and see if S3 is out, if only the game itself in the final stage is what you will buy and will give a toss about. Why the pain? why endure the lousy sound and graphics? Play GTR and GT legend till it's dry then S3 should be ready.

[Vykos69]

excuse me? you have both microbumps and normal bumps. just play southcity. if u cant feel them in there, then the problem is on your side not in lfs. also lfs ff comes from physics 100%. just like the realtime tyre deformation (visually reduced to what the poly detail can show).
lfs tyre physics are simply the most advanced (by far) of any sim out there. 200 sampling points for rubber per car.
thats not saying all data it outputs is milimetrically correct yet. but good things aint easy and progress will go on. continuously. this is a wip game. wip deved and wip played. wip stands for work in progress. support in this game is better than in multimillion dollar games.
agora vai preparar umas caipirinhas com uma boa cachaça e muita lima pra nós dois, the baile funk is just starting.
I was just going to say that Kid. Was wondering where the shaking of my wheel comes from, when I hit the curbs on any track...:scratchch

[XCNuse]

quite honestly delerue what are you trying to prove?? no one is MAKING you buy much less play LFS?
games such as GTR, .. almost all games beside LFS i can think of have 50+ men working on the game for a few years.. LFS has 3, and is suspected to be finished around 2007
... cya in '07

[tristancliffe]

On the other hand, we have GTR, rFactor and GT Legends, with better graphics, sounds, force feedback and physics. These games has better things with less time and price. And again: I don't care about how many DEVs are envolved and how much money they have. If we have a expansive game (and LFS, couting all the Stages, are one of the most expansives games ever), with eternal alpha stages, a lot of bugs and never a final product, so we have problems.

I don't like the graphics in those games you mentions. GT Leg-Ends comes close, but LFS still looks more real to me.

LFS has the more ADVANCED sound system, but at the moment it's not perfect. And I can understand why people think GTR/GTL etc have better sounds, but if you listen they just sound poor, with the mixing of samples.

The FFB in LFS is real. There are no fake effects. If you can't feel it then you're setup is wrong on your computer

So you're trying to tell us the GTR has better physics? LOL!! rFactor I think gets close, but they still feel pretty awful to me.

And how is £24 more expensive than GTL/GTR (£35 new RRP), rFActor (£28 once you've added the unadvertised addition of VAT)? Sure you can get them on budget soon probably, but I think you may have missed the point with LFS...

[tristancliffe]

XCN - '07? Since when was that the case?

[XCNuse]

since everyone started guessing :D

[Rumiko]

I think the aero bug fix (and all other physic changes) won't be implented at current stage. Like Scawen said, the patch would be incompatibile, which means all hotlap charts would have to be wiped out.

They probably want to make the physic changes only once (sometime next year probably).

[Bob Smith]

They probably want to make the physic changes only once (sometime next year probably).
I agree they will try to keep physics changes to a minimum (as in, how many times the physics changes), but I'm hoping to get something before this year is out.

[Rumiko]

I just checked on TorrentReactor, LFS_S2 has stunning 23995 seeders and 16035 peers. Too bad the game is yet far from finished and devs have to hold back with physics updates...
Personally I don't care about hotlaps, but that's selfish thinking I guess :scratchch

[Breizh]

I don't care about licenses or not; I care about the game itself. Licenses are part of the game, like I said if you think they're so negligible, you should give Scawen & co a call and persuade them. If you're right you've got things better figured out than him and everyone else. Again: I don't care about it. If the game is good, is good. If the game is bad, is bad. F*** about money and people envolved in the production. You said: "the real point is, it's fun". That's the main point. And the LFS must fix a lot of things (and make others) to be funny like the other games. Yep, fun. De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum. That said, all the sounds are insane, and only a blind fan can't see that. Ad hominem aside, the sounds are real time, a design choice for the long run, for the same reason LFS is made in tiers. So on that point you're right, this game doesn't fit your tastes, remains to be seen if you can prove that it's a bad design choice. Straw man.. the sounds are a bit corny, big deal. No, wrong. All the games I've told about cost less than LFS. And LFS isn't finished yet, and is older than any other game (GTR, rFactor GTL). Resp. 30-40$,35$,50 bucks on amazon, but let's say 40$, that's at most -10$ difference with LFS, if that much.. big deal? Not going to get into the tiered business model of LFS until you demonstrate what's wrong with it, rather than insinuate your disaproval of it. Do you know any other game that have more then three years, sold licenses even in an unfinished stage? Pretty much any game that, intentionaly or not, ships out to then get patches.. Doom, Splinter Cell 3, GTR etc got patches. e.g. Aces High: 3000+ player base, 500 in one arena @ prime-time, despite faults you're pointing out on LFS: WIP graphics and strategic (a core gameplay element) engine at the expense of "lesser" short term graphics overall, no authentic sounds (the community makes them, on par with Il2/FB/PF's for example), but internet gameplay and physics model better than the competition's. Open ended development in close parallel to the players. And it's made by all of 2 programers and 2 artists. When you think that S3 will be finished? LFS will be very soon the most old-work-in-progress-expansive-sold-bug-game in the world. This is because you admit that quality/quantity/man-hours is irrelevent. It isn't, and if you take price into account i.e. quality/quantity/man-hours/price... Again: f*** about the people envolved. You play the game, not the DEVs. And your math is wrong, again. Non sequitur again, the game is made by those people for a certain purpose by a certain design. Spell out the math error please... 1 It won't be if people ask for the problems, instead of adulate all the things that DEVs makes. 2 We have here people that spend money with problem things, and they like it. 3 And if you said the real things here, you're crazy. Is insane, isn't? No offense, but that's pig english. Correct me if I misinterpret: 1-There's Improvements&Suggestions and Bug reports forums, problems aren't ignored. 2-Naturalistic fallacy. 3-The forum is pretty PC apparently because it has lots of youngun's, that's insane? Whether it is or not has nothing to do with game development, you're just stirring for the sake of it.. On one end you have Racing Legends and on the other Gran Turismo. LFS is right in the middle.

[axus]

I have played the full version of GTR and despite the few bugs that are sorted out in GTR relative to LFS (you wouldn't notice them in LFS S1 since none of the cars have downforce and a lot of the bugs only appear with the downforce only) I still cannot feel as connected to the car as I do in LFS. FF in LFS is awesome, but requires a lot of getting used to - when I play GTR I simply feel a whole lot of uninformative, random wheel shakes. If I spin in GTR I have absolutely no idea why - the car feels like it randomly shakes, looses grip and the rear overtakes me... why?... If I spin in LFS (a rare occurance these days, except in the FO8, but I haven't really spent time with it for now) I know exactly what happened - weather it was my throttle control or a bump on the track or my setup. You say that the fact that the development team is small is irrelevant, but it isn't, and if you knew the first thing about programming you would know this. Scawen knows exactly how he has coded most things in the game and the algorithms he has used meaning that bugs caused by modules from different programmers not fitting together properly is avoided.

OT: BTW, the forums are a place for a discussion - if you are unwilling to discuss, don't come here. You are currently just trolling.

[_rod_]

some1 guessed that LFS on brazil isnt very expansive because there is a few brazilian people playing, but unfortunally its wrong, LFS will be the most expansive game on brazil... each uk money equals 5 brazilian money, so 36*5 = 180.. but lfs was the only game that got me hooked, i usually buy all racing games, but none of them i was able to play more than 2-3 weeks.... im playing lfs since april 05, still love it to death

[axus]

some1 guessed that LFS on brazil isnt very expansive because there is a few brazilian people playing, but unfortunally its wrong, LFS will be the most expansive game on brazil... each uk money equals 5 brazilian money, so 36*5 = 180.. but lfs was the only game that got me hooked, i usually buy all racing games, but none of them i was able to play more than 2-3 weeks.... im playing lfs since april 05, still love it to death

You will be playing it a lot lot more :thumb: Racing 2 years here!

[Chris_Kerry]

LFS is the first driving simulator I have played, all I hear is people complaining instead of taking a step back and looking at what we have.

1) The game is great value!

2) I hardly notice the bugs!

3) The graphics are great! Using the high-res skies make the game look even better.

4) The racing is generally good, even better if you sign up for a league of some sort.

5) There are enough car and track combinations too keep you busy for a lifetime!

What more do you want?

[_rod_]

You will be playing it a lot lot more :thumb: Racing 2 years here!


pretty sure that i will:D

[Theafro]

We will always, have peeps coming onto the forums to ask dumb (or just misinformed) questions and as long as we try to remind people that this is a SERIOUS game, that's gonna take some time to finish (i personally don't ever want it 'finished' ;) ) think of it this way, No time constraints, no licencing issues, a close knit developing team, players who LOVE this game, sh1t it's got it all, thats why i belive this game is the best thing that ever happened to gaming. it's quite nice at the moment to have a game that lacks only the polish of a big money game, it kinda puts off those who are only interested in the shiny bits of a game and leaves only those who love it for what it really is. THE finest racing sim on earth. I M H O :)

[SchneeFee]

i think he shut up now :D

[Delerue]

I don't want to reply this thread anymore. But I have to say to you some things. ;)

And sorry for my really bad english; portuguese is my official language.

Licenses are part of the game, like I said if you think they're so negligible, you should give Scawen & co a call and persuade them. If you're right you've got things better figured out than him and everyone else.

I've see you're good with fallacy. But you're trying do apply thoughts on wrong places. Think that way. If you don't know the history of a game, you will only want to play it. If the game is bad, is bad, and you'll be desapointed. You don't wanna know how much people, money, licenses or the time invested; you'll care only about the game. If the DEVs can't acquire licenses, so this a problem with their games, and with you, that bought the game. Again: you play the game, not the DEVs. And don't think "I have to refute what he said". Think, only. ;)

Ad hominem aside, the sounds are real time, a design choice for the long run, for the same reason LFS is made in tiers. So on that point you're right, this game doesn't fit your tastes, remains to be seen if you can prove that it's a bad design choice. Straw man.. the sounds are a bit corny, big deal.

Tell me one thing: do you really think that the sounds of LFS are close to the reality? Listen without hurry. Pay attention to the crash sounds. F*** about 'real time' (...) sounds. We all know that synthetic sounds sucks, and never can't be close to the real world. My Ad hominem goes on a propitious moment. If you ask anyone that never played LFS what is more real: synthetic sounds or sample sounds? You'll undertand. But there's more. Why you think other games spend so much time (money...) recording too many samples if they could make synthetic sounds, more easy, light to the CPU and disk space, and, supposedly, more real? Why you think GTR wins so much awards with the sound stuff? Only think about it. ;)

Resp. 30-40$,35$,50 bucks on amazon, but let's say 40$, that's at most -10$ difference with LFS, if that much.. big deal? Not going to get into the tiered business model of LFS until you demonstrate what's wrong with it, rather than insinuate your disaproval of it

The user "_rod_" already answered this question.

Pretty much any game that, intentionaly or not, ships out to then get patches.. Doom, Splinter Cell 3, GTR etc got patches. e.g. Aces High: 3000+ player base, 500 in one arena @ prime-time, despite faults you're pointing out on LFS: WIP graphics and strategic (a core gameplay element) engine at the expense of "lesser" short term graphics overall, no authentic sounds (the community makes them, on par with Il2/FB/PF's for example), but internet gameplay and physics model better than the competition's. Open ended development in close parallel to the players. And it's made by all of 2 programers and 2 artists.

You must be kidding. Patches is only to improve games, not to make them. All the games you told about came ready to be played; and the patches came to improve FPS, multiplayer codes and other little stuffs. If you insist to compare LFS patches with all the other games, you're making a mistake, commiting a fallacy. LFS has more versions and patches then any other game I have seen. And LFS still has the same basic bugs that the first versions. There's something wrong here, and we all must agree, don't you think?

This is because you admit that quality/quantity/man-hours is irrelevent. It isn't, and if you take price into account i.e. quality/quantity/man-hours/price

You're pushing a wrong argument. Imagine if we all have to know the history of game to be ready to say something about it. Imagine we all searching the time, money, people and other things related to the game, only to be ready to say: is good, or is bad, or is unfair, or is prety right. Doesn't make any sense. You play the game!

Non sequitur again, the game is made by those people for a certain purpose by a certain design. Spell out the math error please...

The game wants to be the ultimate race sim. Why we never see any award (http://www.bhmotorsports.com/awards) (when compare to other games) or real pilots playing LFS and saying 'wow, pretty amazing real!'? Here, in Brasil, we have online servers for GTR, rFactor, GT Legends and LFS. Why the real pilots never play LFS? Why they ALL prefer GTR?

1-There's Improvements&Suggestions and Bug reports forums, problems aren't ignored.

You can't prove it. I have a lot of bug reports that are simply ignored, just like here. BTW, where are the DEVs? Why they never reply my comments? Strange...

2-Naturalistic fallacy.

You know, fallacy is an invalid argument because can be wrong or illogical thought. But you know that some fallacies are true. But, whatever, you can like LFS even if it were a black point moving through the screen.

3-The forum is pretty PC apparently because it has lots of youngun's, that's insane? Whether it is or not has nothing to do with game development, you're just stirring for the sake of it.. On one end you have Racing Legends and on the other Gran Turismo. LFS is right in the middle.

Yep. LFS is right in the middle. Now we agree. Better than NFS, GrandTurismo, Juiced etc. But worst than GTR, rFactor, GT Legends etc.:thumb:

But LFS can be one of the greatest games. Fixing some bugs and be more humble, changing some things, like sound, lighting, FFB, tyres physics etc; things that are wrong a long, long, long time ago.

Nice to talk with you, man.
Hugs

[Moonclaw]

Ahem how about invisible poles of death in GTR?

[Forbin]

Yep. LFS is right in the middle. Now we agree. Better than NFS, GrandTurismo, Juiced etc. But worst than GTR, rFactor, GT Legends etc.:thumb:
Now you're just putting words in his mouth. He said Racing Legends, which has absolutely nothing to do with any ISI game. Racing Legends is also practically vaporware right now, while the GT series is out. It's not entirely clear on what was meant by this comparison but I can assure you it did not entail saying that LFS is worse than the games you mention.

You clearly don't understand what LFS is about if you criticize the sounds, graphics, etc.

Why do "real" racers prefer GTR? Maybe because it's a *drumroll* big money game... Nothing to do with realism.

Anyone else get the feeling that the forum has been suddenly invaded by ISI fanboys?

[axus]

Yep. LFS is right in the middle. Now we agree. Better than NFS, GrandTurismo, Juiced etc. But worst than GTR, rFactor, GT Legends etc.:thumb:

Please remove your head from your ass - no we do not agree. Most people posting said that they enjoy LFS better than GTR/rFactor/GT Legends, me included so please stop speaking for everyone. :nod:

[Boris Lozac]

Man, you really belive in the things you say?? Still?? I can tell you right now, what kind of a guy you are.. even if i don't know you. You like Skylines, neon lights, tribal tatoo stickers on the cars, don't you?? You don't see the point in racing, don't understand racing lines, you just like the flashy cars, cool cars, with spinning rims..
You say, that pro drivers in Brazil play GTR.. Why do you think is that.. ?Because they saw it in the supermarket, on the shelf, with big FIA GT LICENSED cars on the cover, and he thinks that there is nothing better than that, because that was the best offer on that shelf.. :scratchch . LFS is very unknown to the poople that doesn't browse forrums, etc.. They don't know how good it is, because they didn't heard of it..
You dismissed LFS because when you started it, the menu was in 3 colors, the car interior is not fancy, so imediately spinning rim said to you, "this is not a sim, look at that interior!" :D

[bbman]

As far as I know, there are plenty "real" racers here in the forums, liking LfS just as much as we "fanboys"...

[tristancliffe]

Yep. LFS is right in the middle. Now we agree. Better than NFS, GrandTurismo, Juiced etc. But worst than GTR, rFactor, GT Legends etc.:thumb:

But LFS can be one of the greatest games. Fixing some bugs and be more humble, changing some things, like sound, lighting, FFB, tyres physics etc; things that are wrong a long, long, long time ago.

LOL!!! What a deluded fool. Does Delerue mean deluded in Portugese?

I can understand people liking rFactor more, but it's the only one so far to come anywhere close to LFS.

As for sounds, I honestly don't like GTR and GT Legend's sounds. LFSs are by NO MEANS perfect, or finished, but they are superior in almost every way to GTRs.
Lighting in S2? You mean day night cycle? That's an S3 thing.
FFB - LFS has the ONLY force feedback worth it's name
Tyre Physics - GTR doesn't HAVE tyre physics. It has a table of values it looks up. Little or nothing is calculated real time. And no proper drivers really drive GTR. They were just paid to say they did for the box. LFS DOES have real drivers play it.

Tell me this - when GTLegends was only 60% done, did it have day night cycles, advanced damage, the best online netcode yet, support for almost every language, a huge user group, and superb physics. I doubt it. It was probably just GTR with messed about graphics. No where NEAR sellable. Unlike LFS.

We can't make you like LFS, but you CAN make us dislike ignorant people like you. So there.

[tristancliffe]

Anyone else get the feeling that the forum has been suddenly invaded by ISI fanboys? Yes, but only the particularly stupid ones :D

[Blackout]

What is this guy trying to prove with this thread? That LFS is wrong and unrealisticarcadehitty? Awards? Why LFS would need anykind of award from Blackhole motorsport...in sound catecory?

What do you care anyway!? All you repeat is that you dont care you dont care! Dont care then and go play your uberrealisticsuperrealracingsimulations like gtr with superduper FFB and sound and smooth graphics that run great with 2 cars on track at the same time. For me, that game just doesnt give the right feeling and the feedback, it has discussed many times but feel free to like it, I dont care.

[GP4Flo]

Ahem how about invisible poles of death in GTR? One of the S1 South City configs had such a invisible pole, but now it's gone ;)

[axus]

You can't prove it. I have a lot of bug reports that are simply ignored, just like here. BTW, where are the DEVs? Why they never reply my comments? Strange...

You think that the dev's don't have anything better to do than answer your obnoxious questions? Do the GTR developers ever answer your questions on the forums? Or do they even read your threads? Here is something for you - it is modified from this site. (http://www.lfsforum.net/maddox.xmission.com)

[Moonclaw]

One of the S1 South City configs had such a invisible pole, but now it's gone ;)

Which just proves the point of critical bugfixes, nothing has been done in GTR to get rid of those poles.

[Delerue]

You clearly don't understand what LFS is about if you criticize the sounds, graphics, etc.

LFS wants to be the ultimate online racing sim, but it isn't even the ultimate racing sim... If you have problems at single player, you'll have the same problems (except AI, of course) at multiplayer.

Why do "real" racers prefer GTR? Maybe because it's a *drumroll* big money game... Nothing to do with realism.

I know what these guys say: GTR is undoubtedly more real than LFS. ;)

Anyone else get the feeling that the forum has been suddenly invaded by ISI fanboys?

I'm not a fan of anything, except good games (f*** about the DEVs, money, names, entreprise etc). But whats the relevance of this thing? :really:

BTW, I never attack people here, but I'm suffering several attacks. Is there any moderator here? Or they are LFS-fan too? :(

[axus]

Which just proves the point of critical bugfixes, nothing has been done in GTR to get rid of those poles.
Oooooh... let's not get onto critical bug fixes or someone may point out the bug in rFactor which makes it freeze when being started on a lot of PC's and this is a game that is so good that it doesn't even have a demo... Nothing was done about the bug for quite some time AFAIK and I think its still there... Where do I sing?

[axus]

LFS wants to be the ultimate online racing sim, but it isn't even the ultimate racing sim... If you have problems at single player, you'll have the same problems (except AI, of course) at multiplayer.
I know what these guys say: GTR is undoubtedly more real than LFS.

The reason for these "attacks" is your ignorance and lack of knowledge of anything except big names and what these people that know what they are talking about say. Just _think_ very very very hard about what you are saying "I know what these guys say: GTR is undoubtedly more real than LFS." Really? Where did any real racer say that? One that wasn't being paid by SimBin and has played both games... find me one and show him to me since you "know these guys".

[Breizh]

If you don't know the history of a game, you will only want to play it. If the game is bad, is bad, and you'll be desapointed. Define "bad". Quality is in this case a measure of how ludic the game is.. which is a matter of taste and therefore not everyone can be pleased. There are different games which stroke different people different ways, Scawen & co chose a particular stroke and have stuck to it pretty well.



If the DEVs can't acquire licenses, so this a problem with their games, and with you, that bought the game.
Problem? It doesn't bother me, and I'm a racing purist. In fact, the cost/benefit ratio is more than worth giving up marques and badges, in my opinion. A matter of opinion, see a pattern yet? I see a rear-engined 3.6 liter NA boxer with fat rear tires, which is the same thing I see in a Porsche.. I don't care if it's from Stuttgart, it's a particular design that's among other things very fun to race online.

Tell me one thing: [...] Only think about it. I think a well written symphonic orchestra piece in polyphonic MIDI format appeals to different aesthetic criteria than a studio-mastered and uncompressed Daft Punk dancefloor piece. They're both aesthetic executions in different forms.. they're both music. Which one is good? Which one is more likely to make you feel immersed in it? De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum, not just random latin.
This is all moot, because unless I misread it, LFS will improve the sound by improving the synthetic sound while keeping the engine sound management real-time. Best of both worlds, more real when all's said and done. *
LFS didn't win GTR's awards the same way indie films don't cater to Hollywood's All's well that ends well, big-budget marketing rationale.

<< (concerning the price) >>
No offense.. that's Brazil's problem, not the LFS devs'.


You must be kidding. Patches is only to improve games, not to make them. All the games you told about came ready to be played; and the patches came to improve FPS, multiplayer codes and other little stuffs. If you insist to compare LFS patches with all the other games, you're making a mistake, commiting a fallacy. LFS has more versions and patches then any other game I have seen. And LFS still has the same basic bugs that the first versions. Which fallacy is that? 5$ says your premise for calling it a fallacy is incorrect.
If some bugs have existed since the first versions (don't know what they are myself, haven't noticed any that stopped me from playing and have as much fun as in final release games doing it), it's safe to say they probably aren't at the top of the to-do priotity list.. or that they aren't solveable yet, which equates to accusing the devs of malice, if their best attempts at fixing them aren't considered enough.
There's something wrong here, and we all must agree, don't you think? Not sure what you mean. I don't agree with what you've said so far. If I were in the devs' place, I'd have done almost everything as they have.

You're pushing a wrong argument. Imagine if we all have to know the history of game to be ready to say something about it. Imagine we all searching the time, money, people and other things related to the game, only to be ready to say: is good, or is bad, or is unfair, or is prety right. Doesn't make any sense. You play the game I don't see what you mean.

The game wants to be the ultimate race sim. Why we never see any award (when compare to other games) or real pilots playing LFS and saying 'wow, pretty amazing real!'? Here, in Brasil, we have online servers for GTR, rFactor, GT Legends and LFS. Why the real pilots never play LFS? Why they ALL prefer GTR?Ad populum. Unanswered questions aren't facts.

You can't prove it. I have a lot of bug reports that are simply ignored, just like here. BTW, where are the DEVs? Why they never reply my comments? Strange... You certainly aren't being ignored here, and most bugs are answered by a software fix rather than a message board post. It'd be redundant, look at it from the busy devs' side.

You know, fallacy [...] moving through the screen. That was my point. It all comes down to a matter of taste, of what's fun. Different flavors for different people. But even that put aside, you're making statements of facts alone, and concluding statements of value from them. There's no statement of value in your premises.
And yeah you're right, I can like LFS if it was Pong.. check out the game Generally.. Is that game "wrong" to pretend being exactly what it is?


Yep. LFS [...] etc. Nope, I was putting it on the axis of how thoroughly those games attempted to model every part of racing. Gran Turismo has a nice front end with completely hermetic inner mechanics, Racing Legends is at the opposite side, open-ended and realistic (e.g. synthetic sound engine) from head to toe. It is also taking litteraly forever and not giving updates in the mean time, and will be most expensive... I could go on.

I could also go on and on about all the bugs GTR & co have, about their own failings, about all the good sides of LFS and all the good things exclusive to it, but that's beside the point.
You're sidestepping the one thing that LFS is betting its success on by attempting to do differently, it's a matter of Design.


*your only true point is you, specificaly, will find it easier to not play this game after downplaying it in its official general discussion forum.

[Delerue]

Man, you really belive in the things you say?? Still?? I can tell you right now, what kind of a guy you are.. even if i don't know you. You like Skylines, neon lights, tribal tatoo stickers on the cars, don't you?? You don't see the point in racing, don't understand racing lines, you just like the flashy cars, cool cars, with spinning rims..

You don't know me. You don't even read what I said. I hate tuning stuff. And how can I like it if I don't like NFS, Grand Turismo and Juiced? If I like GTR and GT Legends. Think about it. ;)

You say, that pro drivers in Brazil play GTR.. Why do you think is that.. ?Because they saw it in the supermarket, on the shelf, with big FIA GT LICENSED cars on the cover, and he thinks that there is nothing better than that, because that was the best offer on that shelf..

You don't know what they said about the games. You're precipitating the things. Ask before say wrong things.

LFS is very unknown to the poople that doesn't browse forrums, etc.. They don't know how good it is, because they didn't heard of it..

No, wrong. The pilots know LFS, play LFS, but preffer GTR. They say that LFS isn't close enough to the real world. That's it.

You dismissed LFS because when you started it, the menu was in 3 colors, the car interior is not fancy, so imediately spinning rim said to you, "this is not a sim, look at that interior!" :D

Games have three real feedbacks: sounds, graphics and force feedback. If one of these things is bad, the game suffers. But LFS doesn't have only one of these things bad. All the three things are wrong (sound is the worst, then force feedback), and much more: the tyres physics and the aero physics are insane. Why you all have to deny these things? Asking the DEVs for these things we'll be a gain of all of us. :thumb:

[Breizh]

[...] BTW, I never attack people here, but I'm suffering several attacks. Is there any moderator here? Or they are LFS-fan too? :(
Now you're playing victim. Some people just got fed up with your fallacious arguments, and you have to expect that from the way you went about your opinion.
It's independent of the fact that you're wrong tho.

[Breizh]

Games have three real feedbacks: sounds, graphics and force feedback. If one of these things is bad, the game suffers. But LFS doesn't have only one of these things bad. All the three things are wrong (sound is the worst, then force feedback), and much more: the tyres physics and the aero physics are insane. Why you all have to deny these things? Asking the DEVs for these things we'll be a gain of all of us. :thumb:
Out of date.. and as already said: LFS is still alpha, of it's second of three development tiers.. tyre and aero physics are already being fixed... your problem is with LFS being developed openly.
If it'd be kept behind closed doors till when it's done, you wouldn't have anything to complain about.
But that's not how the devs chose to do it. They charted the tasks to be done and made it so it was possible to share the unfinished work with the players and improve as they went.
No one's denying the bugs, that's part of the open-ended approach to this.
How many times does it need to be repeated?

[GP4Flo]

Which just proves the point of critical bugfixes, nothing has been done in GTR to get rid of those poles. The bug wasn't critical in LFS, because it was quite close to the armco at a place where you normally don't drive.

[tristancliffe]

No, wrong. The pilots know LFS, play LFS, but preffer GTR. They say that LFS isn't close enough to the real world. That's it.

Where. I've never seen any driver (they're not pilots) say GTR is more real than LFS. None. Zilch. Zero.

[Huru-aito]

All the three things are wrong (sound is the worst, then force feedback), and much more: the tyres physics and the aero physics are insane. Why you all have to deny these things?

I agree, sounds are in a desperate need of development. But they aren't wrong, in fact they are more right than the sounds in ISI-sims ;)

FFB.. Hmm. LfS FFB consists of forces carried over from tyres through suspension to the steering wheel - I think they are the best in the business, not just some pre-recorded effects.

Physics.. Insane.. :rofl:

LfS is convincing, it shows you what happens under the surface (SHIFT+L for example). In ISI-sims I don't see such info, neither do the graphics hint that there would be that much of a sophisticated system hidden deeper inside. Maybe there isn't one at all?

[Delerue]

Define "bad". Quality is in this case a measure of how ludic the game is.. which is a matter of taste and therefore not everyone can be pleased. There are different games which stroke different people different ways, Scawen & co chose a particular stroke and have stuck to it pretty well.

The DEVs forget about the most old bugs: tyres physics, FFB and sound. And now the aero physics bug. Pretty well, ahn?

Problem? It doesn't bother me, and I'm a racing purist. In fact, the cost/benefit ratio is more than worth giving up marques and badges, in my opinion. A matter of opinion, see a pattern yet? I see a rear-engined 3.6 liter NA boxer with fat rear tires, which is the same thing I see in a Porsche.. I don't care if it's from Stuttgart, it's a particular design that's among other things very fun to race online.

You must be kidding. One time you said that GTR & co can be better because they have a lot of things that LFS doesn't, like licenses. Now you don't care about licenses. Besides, we all know that real cars are more real than fake cars, just because real cars exists and can be simulated step by step. Fake cars are only physics guess.

I think a well written symphonic orchestra piece in polyphonic MIDI format appeals to different aesthetic criteria than a studio-mastered and uncompressed Daft Punk dancefloor piece. They're both aesthetic executions in different forms.. they're both music. Which one is good? Which one is more likely to make you feel immersed in it? De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum, not just random latin.

You're not so good with fallacies. You compare different things, but insinuate that they are close enough to be compared. I'll reply only this: what do you preffer (and listen): MIDI or WAV? Now we're talking about the same subject. ;)

This is all moot, because unless I misread it, LFS will improve the sound by improving the synthetic sound while keeping the engine sound management real-time. Best of both worlds, more real when all's said and done.

"Will improve...". Man, look at that argument. You say it since LFS is on the first alpha stage, more than three years ago. Your arguments tends to be a circle.

LFS didn't win GTR's awards the same way indie films don't cater to Hollywood's All's well that ends well, big-budget marketing rationale.

Another wrong analogy. And again you want to defend the game because it doesn't have enough money. So...? You play the game, don't you?

<< (concerning the price) >>
No offense.. that's Brazil's problem, not the LFS devs'.

It's not that simple. Even at S2 stage we have a little more money at the price. But soon you'll say that the problem X, Y and Z will be solved at S3 stage, which cost more $12, a total of EDITED$36. Yeah! The most expensive game ever! And more: the most sold old work in progress game ever. Can you deny it?

That was my point. It all comes down to a matter of taste, of what's fun. Different flavors for different people. But even that put aside, you're making statements of facts alone, and concluding statements of value from them. There's no statement of value in your premises.

You all don't say that the hole thing is about taste. You all want to 'prove' that the game is good (perfect, ahn?).

And yeah you're right, I can like LFS if it was Pong.. check out the game Generally.. Is that game "wrong" to pretend being exactly what it is?

LFS wants to be the ultimate online racing sim, come on. It isn't even the ultimate racing sim...

*your only true point is you, specificaly, will find it easier to not play this game after downplaying it in its official general discussion forum.

Sorry, but I can't understand. :(

[bbman]

No, wrong. The pilots know LFS, play LFS, but preffer GTR. They say that LFS isn't close enough to the real world. That's it.
Name me one, who REALLY said that to YOU... And please, all the "real" racers here, feel free to prove that there are enough of you who think that GTR isn't "more real"...
Also, why is a czech driver interview playing LfS, when all the "real" drivers think GTR is better? Why are there so many people in LfS with motorsport background, when GTR is so much more preferred?

Games have three real feedbacks: sounds, graphics and force feedback. If one of these things is bad, the game suffers. But LFS doesn't have only one of these things bad. All the three things are wrong (sound is the worst, then force feedback), and much more: the tyres physics and the aero physics are insane. Why you all have to deny these things? Asking the DEVs for these things we'll be a gain of all of us. :thumb:
I tried the highly praised graphics wonder named rFactor... Even though I set all graphics settings to highest, it was still just damn ugly, honestly... LfS may be a little aliased, but it uses the graphics engine much more than rFactor does... In fact, I never saw uglier sorroundings than in rFactor... As for the FF, LfS is superior to all other racing games at that... You can actually drive the car deaf and blind, the FF is enough to tell you what your car is doing right know and what surface you're rolling on...
On sound, you are right, sound needs to be improved, but sampled sound doesn't mean it's better... In fact, I prefer the sound system in LfS as of now, because it also tells you, what your car is doing at the very moment... Something you will never get through sound samples you claim so much better...

To be honest, you sound like someone, who has heard from his best friend that x "pwns" and y "sucks" and just blindly repeats it... And your ignorance to admit that somebody other than you has valid points, just strengthens my theory...
Let me give you that advice: Try to understand the other side, and prove them wrong by really arguing, not just repeating your sentences for the 100th time... Because as of now, I would consider you a flameboy that just wants to stir up the community or, as I stated before, stupidely repeating what you heard from others, but nothing really understanding... ;)

[mrbogeyman]

:feedtroll:feedtroll:feedtroll:feedtroll:feedtroll

is there any point to continue arguing about something so much when some people are unwilling to give an inch.

this sort of thread just makes these forums look bad.

[GP4Flo]

LFS rules, GTR sucks, GTL sucks, rFactor sucks, GPL sucks, NASCAR sucks, everything else sucks - are you happing now ;)

[YUGO45]

There is always enough time and room to make LFS somewhat better :nod:

I have to edmit I bought GTR some days ago. I heard some nice things about it, especially for the sound. Installed the damn thing, downloaded "Nordscheiffe" circuit and thats about it. Nothing more was interesting. Its that much fun. Couldnt even register for online racing because the "@" cant be pasted in the game, how stupid is that:pillepall Its gonna end somewhere in ebay. Please dont get me wrong folks, I believe that some people like GTR, enjoy playing it and thats not a bad thing :really:

I am not a fan of AI traffic, thats why LFS is my number one. Yes it has some bugs and yes the sound needs much improvement, but all games arent perfect and thats a FACT! Somehow I cant find a better simulation that offers me such pleasure of beeting some of you :D



Its just a question of WHERE DO YOU BELONG? :thumb:

[Gopher04]

Jeez you do alot of winging Delerue, we all have idea's about improvements for any sim, the fact is that the Devs involved with LFS do more updates, bug fixes, and improvements then any other sim i have ever used, to be honest people who start a thread off like you did, and complain so much usually means two things, 1/ they want to be noticed, 2/should sod off if you dont like it, and winge else where, you don't even have a S2 licence..get a grip man.

[tristancliffe]

When did the devs forget tyre physics? Or FFB? Or sound?

Do you understand the point of LFS?

[Chris_Kerry]

People generally don't understand that LFS is a game for serious racers.

Whether that be due to the fact that it's not heavily advertised to give that impression, or the fact that a couple of 12 year olds find it on the internet and tell their mates etc etc. I don't know how this can be changed in the short run.

Also this game has a community which is far easier and accesable for the average user than any other game, hence why you can get the odd idiot posting.

[Nick_ll]

Oooooh... let's not get onto critical bug fixes or someone may point out the bug in rFactor which makes it freeze when being started on a lot of PC's and this is a game that is so good that it doesn't even have a demo... Nothing was done about the bug for quite some time AFAIK and I think its still there... Where do I sing?
ISI is working on a patch for rFactor. That is a fact. Then nothing has been done YET???? Where are you coming from dammit?? LFS S2 Alpha has been released months before rFactor and nothing has been done in here either. We only get language patches which, even though can be important if you want to get a greater userbase, are not quite as important as fixing the aero model which allows for exploits, or adding sounds like the differential sounds in the cars that need it or the shifting sounds. Oh and that's all talking Scawen-work. We don't even know what Eric does (if he does anything at all, but let's not get silly, it's his job).
I mean I'm like 100% sure ISI will get their first rF patch out before LFS gets a patch out that does anything useful at all that actually improves gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, I like LFS and I even help running a league for it. It is my sim of choice, but sometimes I get a feeling of nothing being done. IMO there's a great lack of both feedback and speed in Eric's work. We know pretty much what Scawen is up to, but not Eric. We never know.

[axus]

You don't know me. You don't even read what I said. I hate tuning stuff. And how can I like it if I don't like NFS, Grand Turismo and Juiced? If I like GTR and GT Legends. Think about it. ;)

Errr... I'm thinking - I can't think of any reason why you can't like LFS. Think about this: GTR may be simulated farther than LFS is currently, however, everything in LFS is simulated better (tyre physics for example - except you don't even know how those work in LFS, so let me elaborate...). Each tyre has an inner, middle and outer temperature (same as GTR so far), but where GTR falls back is the fact that LFS has 48 different spots on the tyre, who's temperatures are taken (16 over the circumference X 3 along the surface of the tyre). Then the pressure exerted on each of those points is calculated as a function of camber, load etc etc. Then the grip that the tyre has with its current temperatures and pressures is calculated, so grip and pressure varies when you go over a flatspot. GTR uses a table of values - which do you think is better?



You don't know what they said about the games. You're precipitating the things. Ask before say wrong things.

No, wrong. The pilots know LFS, play LFS, but preffer GTR. They say that LFS isn't close enough to the real world. That's it.

Can you please show us this so we become as "enlightened" as you are?

EDIT: By the way, if you are talking about someone that SimBin payed to say that GTR is the best thing out there think about this: your money (you are buying the game) is going to pay for someone to say that that game is better... value for money, eh? Where do I sign?

Games have three real feedbacks: sounds, graphics and force feedback. If one of these things is bad, the game suffers. But LFS doesn't have only one of these things bad. All the three things are wrong (sound is the worst, then force feedback), and much more: the tyres physics and the aero physics are insane. Why you all have to deny these things? Asking the DEVs for these things we'll be a gain of all of us. :thumb:

Lets clear the three feedbacks up one by one (now read this slowly...).

Sound: LFS's sound engine is mapped to the engine's real-time piston movements and the explosions hence occuring. This means that you know exactly what your engine is doing at any one time. If you listen really hard when racing GTR you can hear the samples overlapping one another. LFS may fall back in terms of effects (cog-swop sounds etc etc), but those aren't really feedback - they are just there to make you feel a bit more like you are in the car. Nothing one cannot live without. The tyre squeal sounds are perfectly audiable and very informative - despite hearing all sounds from the front you can still tell which ones come from the rear tyres and which ones from the fronts. When I play GTR I have no idea if the tyre squeals come from front or back and how much grip each tyre has and how much of it it is using. And about the crash sounds... who gives a shit? If you crash your car, the race is over - there is meant to be no more information in those than a simple "your race is over". So what I basically conclude (and I am not making you agree, this is my oppinion), GTR has a lot of ear-candy but no real information comming through the sounds. Fools will be blinded by the ear-candy and will convince themselves that they are being sold a better product. Anyone using the sounds as feedback will prefer LFS's plainer but more informative sounds.

Force Feedback: LFS has far better damper force feedback than anything out there at the moment - GTR admitedly has better road feedback, but if you know the track, that little bit of extra road feedback doesn't really mean that much. The damper feedback is what tells you what the car is doing - the road feedback just tells you if you are on grass or tramac. No real issues here IMO - if I had to choose between LFS's Force Feedback and GTR's I would take LFS's.

Graphics: WHAT? LFS has graphics feedback issues?
:pillepall
GTR and all those simply have better shaders and lighting - nothing that affects the feedback from graphics. In fact - LFS's graphics are a lot less edgy than some other games', and that is what makes them informative. The tyre smoke in GTR is pathetic by the way, so don't even go there. The interiors of cars aren't that great - agreed, but what does that have to do with feedback?

I really thought I should bring this up again before I ended off:
"and much more: the tyres physics and the aero physics are insane."
LFS has _complete_ tyre physics - only weather effects aren't simulated for them but multiple samling points, pressures, blow outs, punctures, tyres getting dirty... there is no comparison between GTR's table of values and this. Aero physics will be sorted out very very soon I think - it is a know bug and is being exploited setupwise. Scawen is busy on making LFS a sim that has full language support (not something many can boast) and that looks like it will soon be finished. The first patch that changes the physics will also fix this. Does any other sim out there even have suspension damage simulated? (I know that most of them have the wheel alignment damage down but I'm not too sure about the suspension.)

[Chris_Kerry]

IMO there's a great lack of both feedback and speed in Eric's work. We know pretty much what Scawen is up to, but not Eric. We never know.

To be quite honest, what these three guys have achieved on their own deserve's a bit of a break from it. I wouldn't for one minute begrudge Eric having a break, even if Scawen is back working hard. Just be careful not to judge people without having enough information to back it up.

Also some of the latest patches like P9 don't only accomodate language fixes.

[Breizh]

The DEVs forget about the most old bugs: tyres physics, FFB and sound. And now the aero physics bug. Pretty well, ahn? They haven't forgotten by any stretch. Evidence?
You must be kidding. One time you said that GTR & co can be better because they have a lot of things that LFS doesn't, like licenses. Now you don't care about licenses.
Define "better", "quality" in this instance.
Besides, we all know that real cars are more real than fake cars, just because real cars exists and can be simulated step by step. Fake cars are only physics guess. GTR/GTL/etc pixel cars are fake.
Fake LFS cars are as real as any other pixel cars.
You're not so good with fallacies. You compare different things, but insinuate that they are close enough to be compared. I'll reply only this: what do you preffer (and listen): MIDI or WAV? Now we're talking about the same subject. ;) I said they can't be rationaly compared as pertains to taste. I'm saying they're apples and oranges. Find an english idioms dictionary.
To answer your question, I prefer neither MIDI nor WAV to a thorough real-time model rather than something canned like phased-in and -out WAVs or realtime MIDI polyphonics, which is where LFS stands at present, according to the same plan that'll eventually have it doing both real-time and "WAV" quality as you simply put it.


"Will improve...". Man, look at that argument. You say it since LFS is on the first alpha stage, more than three years ago. Your arguments tends to be a circle. Circle? Sound might be too "bad" for your ears, but your brain should recognize it is the best choice in terms of prioritizing the constituent modules summing LFS. Each thing in its own time. A matter of Design. That was the plan from day one as far as I can tell.



Another wrong analogy. And again you want to defend the game because it doesn't have enough money. So...? You play the game, don't you? I'm not defending it, nor saying it doesn't have enough money.
I'll reiterate one last time: GTR is a different animal. You're saying Velociraptors are lesser predatory species as a whole because they come into the world as eggs, rather than autonomously locomotive as zebras do.
Yes I play it, what's your point?

It's not that simple. Even at S2 stage we have a little more money at the price. But soon you'll say that the problem X, Y and Z will be solved at S3 stage, which cost more $12, a total of $46. Yeah! The most expensive game ever! And more: the most sold old work in progress game ever. Can you deny it? 46$ is scandalous? What are you complaining about? No one's forcing you to pay.
I'd argue but your english isn't making sense to me, sorry.

You all don't say that the hole thing is about taste. You all want to 'prove' that the game is good (perfect, ahn?).
All I'm proving is the inconsistencies in what you're saying. You're free to like what you wish. Vice-versa, you won't get far telling others what they should like, or telling them what they're doing or liking is "wrong" (a moral value btw) unless you show undeniable proof.
Yes it's about taste, and arguing the implications of this to you is tedious.

LFS wants to be the ultimate online racing sim, come on. It isn't even the ultimate racing sim...
"It"'s an alpha of the second of three developmental tiers.
Apples and oranges. GTR is finished, wasn't designed with the same goal or through the same approach, nor catered to the same audience.

What's your point? One line only please.

[axus]

ISI is working on a patch for rFactor. That is a fact. Then nothing has been done YET???? Where are you coming from dammit?? LFS S2 Alpha has been released months before rFactor and nothing has been done in here either. We only get language patches which, even though can be important if you want to get a greater userbase, are not quite as important as fixing the aero model which allows for exploits, or adding sounds like the differential sounds in the cars that need it or the shifting sounds. Oh and that's all talking Scawen-work. We don't even know what Eric does (if he does anything at all, but let's not get silly, it's his job).
I mean I'm like 100% sure ISI will get their first rF patch out before LFS gets a patch out that does anything useful at all that actually improves gameplay.
Don't get me wrong, I like LFS and I even help running a league for it. It is my sim of choice, but sometimes I get a feeling of nothing being done. IMO there's a great lack of both feedback and speed in Eric's work. We know pretty much what Scawen is up to, but not Eric. We never know.

Eric's work is surprise stuff - examples? UF GTR... FZ GTR... both came out of nowhere. And my guess would be that he is working on the rally pack that will be realeased after S2, which would indeed be another surprise but I honestly have no clue what the next surprise from him will be and I like that... :nod:

We shall see when the first test patch with updated physics comes from Scawen - if you have been keeping up with the language stuff it is near completion.

[dontsimon]

I'm bored.

[Nick_ll]

To be quite honest, what these three guys have achieved on their own deserve's a bit of a break from it. I wouldn't for one minute begrudge Eric having a break, even if Scawen is back working hard. Just be careful not to judge people without having enough information to back it up.

Also some of the latest patches like P9 don't only accomodate language fixes.
Is being able to do 3D models myself , my own textures and either put them in a game engine or render, and knowing the time it takes to do such things enough information about it to be entitled to complain? Oh and I'm not really fast either. RMachucaA is a pro and he's modeling much much much faster than me still.

Here a sample. A steering wheel. Took maybe 4 hours including texturing and making the textures.

[Chris_Kerry]

Is being able to do 3D models myself , my own textures and either put them in a game engine or render, and knowing the time it takes to do such things enough information about it to be entitled to complain?

This has no relevence, how much time and effort do you think went into this game?

4 hours?

Without meaning to be rude, you made a steering wheel. They made an entire game!

Now I'm not saying I know anything about programming, I know nothing, the fact is they put months of work into this game and people are complaining nothing is being done atm. That annoys me tbh.

[Breizh]

Yep, and as you go along development, the more software (code or content) you add, the more complex potential problems become.
This might not be obvious unless you've coded yourself.

When all's said and done, this is the bottom line:
Everyone is doing what they want, both devs and "paying customers" (as smugly as some put it), and Eric & co want to design their game as they see fit. They may make certain choices to accomodate the intended customers' expectations, such as not taking a century or using customer's cash to vacate to the Bahamas every other day, but as long as they aren't clearly misleading anyone, where's the beef?
It's their game and unless they're failing their promises, rants are undue.

[axus]

Is being able to do 3D models myself , my own textures and either put them in a game engine or render, and knowing the time it takes to do such things enough information about it to be entitled to complain? Oh and I'm not really fast either. RMachucaA is a pro and he's modeling much much much faster than me still.

Here a sample. A steering wheel. Took maybe 4 hours including texturing and making the textures.

This wheel looks better because it is rendered and not in-game. If a game could spend as much time rendering each wheel/car/tree/piece of grass/you name it, imagine the PC you would need.

EDIT: Oh, looking at it again - it doesn't really look better than the Cromo wheel in LFS. It looks rather flat actually - the button on the front doesn't bulge out and it doesn't look right. No offence.

[Nick_ll]

This has no relevence, how much time and effort do you think went into this game?

4 hours?

Without meaning to be rude, you made a steering wheel. They made an entire game!

Now I'm not saying I know anything about programming, I know nothing, the fact is they put months of work into this game and people are complaining nothing is being done atm. That annoys me tbh.
How is this "knowing anything programming" relevant at all? We're talking of the 3D works in LFS right now. Not Scawen's job of programming. Don't confuse that.
My point was that if only 4 hours had been spent on stuff like that (stuff like that, which includes remapping cars (which the LXs and the RB4 still need to be) and other little tasks like that, or adding bolts to the wheels (a bolt is not quite something hard to model, much easier than a hood pin, which the GTR cars already have)) it would add an edge to LFS. A thing that shows greater attention to detail. Or even that statement is wrong. The cars have that, there are hood pins and wipers and stuff, it's more a lack of consistency in the attention to detail shown.

@Axus: you want a wireframe shot? The button does bulge out. Look closer again. The rest is flat because the reference pics showed me it was flat.

Edit: oh and do you want me to mention the suspension arms of the single seaters?

[the_angry_angel]

Bear in mind I'm no artist; how many polygons is in that wheel? I'd hazard a guess its fairly high-ish...

I think you'll find that LFS could be higher quality - but in doing so LFS will be locking out the lower end of their potential market again. If you're part of the LFS team, do you want to keep the market as large as possible, or do you want to restrict it?

Yes, its possible that LFS could be more beautiful, but its not planned for this stage of LFS. Its a case of getting it working properly before optimising and refining it.

IMO there's a great lack of both feedback and speed in Eric's work. We know pretty much what Scawen is up to, but not Eric. We never know.Scawen explained this, in person, at the LFS meet. Eric's work cannot be applied to new patches, because it makes all previous patches incompatible, and a new release of the server and the client is required. A large number of the models cannot simply be replaced willy-nilly. As a result his work is added in major patches. He does more work than I think we give him credit for.

Edit:
Victor I'm loving this quick edit feature. Its ****ing handy.

[bbman]

How is this "knowing anything programming" relevant at all? We're talking of the 3D works in LFS right now. Not Scawen's job of programming. Don't confuse that.
My point was that if only 4 hours had been spent on stuff like that (stuff like that, which includes remapping cars (which the LXs and the RB4 still need to be) and other little tasks like that, or adding bolts to the wheels (a bolt is not quite something hard to model, much easier than a hood pin, which the GTR cars already have)) it would add an edge to LFS. A thing that shows greater attention to detail. Or even that statement is wrong. The cars have that, there are hood pins and wipers and stuff, it's more a lack of consistency in the attention to detail shown.

@Axus: you want a wireframe shot? The button does bulge out. Look closer again. The rest is flat because the reference pics showed me it was flat.

Edit: oh and do you want me to mention the suspension arms of the single seaters?
Ok, then please render some tracks (with ideal line alpha layer, as in LfS, and don't forget about the variants of one track!), a few cars (with selectable driver, working wheel and suspension in mind), trees and other sorroundings, people and so on...

I forgot to say that all that should NOT be based on real stuff (maybe the props, because I'm a nice guy :D)

Cya in a few years...

[Nick_ll]

Bear in mind I'm no artist; how many polygons is in that wheel? I'd hazard a guess its fairly high-ish...

I think you'll find that LFS could be higher quality - but in doing so LFS will be locking out the lower end of their potential market again. If you're part of the LFS team, do you want to keep the market as large as possible, or do you want to restrict it?

Yes, its possible that LFS could be more beautiful, but its not planned for this stage of LFS. Its a case of getting it working properly before optimising and refining it.

Scawen explained this, in person, at the LFS meet. Eric's work cannot be applied to new patches, because it makes all previous patches incompatible, and a new release of the server and the client is required. A large number of the models cannot simply be replaced willy-nilly. As a result his work is added in major patches. He does more work than I think we give him credit for.

Edit:
Victor I'm loving this quick edit feature. Its ****ing handy.
Ah thanks! Finally a useful reply to my post. Glad to learn that. That explains a bit better. Makes sense too.

For the record, that wheel is 1502 polys. Not "high poly", still suitable for a game engine but certainly higher than the 406 polys of the FOX steering wheel of course.

@bbman: a track isn't "hard" to do. It's a loft. What's hard is the terrain and objects around it. Getting a realistic feel of it. Eric does a great job at that. It's the cars that I'd like to see improved if you didn't notice in my posts that I'm pretty much only talking about cars. On the other hand, once the track is modeled, considering Eric has many textures by now, I believe the progress of some parts of his work should normally gain in speed as he doesn't have to do everything from scratch all the time.

[Michael Miskella]

you've said clearly you only care about the finished article and not the dev's or how its made, right? so come back when its finished, problem solved.

Whats ISI btw?

[Chris_Kerry]

How is this "knowing anything programming" relevant at all? We're talking of the 3D works in LFS right now. Not Scawen's job of programming. Don't confuse that.

There you go, backs up my point about knowing sweet fa about the whole process of game development.

However I spotted in a later post "finally a useful reply", I'd be careful not to be rude, I'm merely adding my voice to the argument. Not being offensive in anyway.

I'm not trying to de-grade your work, just saying that you have spent that time on a wheel, imagine that on a whole game. Takes a long time right? Hence why the dev's deserve a break instead of people jumping on the bandwagon of asking for improvements asap. Let them do their work and you do your's is my philosophy.

[TagForce]

Whats ISI btw?


Image Space, Inc. Creators of SCGT and F1200X...

[tristancliffe]

Damn Karl - I was going to explain how Eric is working FULL TIME (like Scawen and Victor) on improving LFS.

I don't know, but I expect that we'll be seeing a physics/incompatible patch fairly soon (fairly being a relative term, as it will take time for Scawen to code the fixes once the lagnuage stuff is finalised). However, I'm confident that by the new year LFS will be alsmost unrecognisable from what we have now - better 3D models, better tyre physics, less track/aero bugs etc etc.

I DO NOT KNOW THIS, THIS IS MERELY EDUCATED GUESSWORK, based soley on what Scawen has said and typed over the last few months...

[mrbogeyman]

i dont think he mentioned any GFX updates _at all_

i think first point of focus will be the aero bugs.

then onto tyres prob.

would be nice to have an xmas pressie, but i think the devs should be eating xmas cake then, so im not expecting anything.

[Bob Smith]

I too suspect an incompatible patch not too far away but...
However, I'm confident that by the new year LFS will be alsmost unrecognisable from what we have now - better 3D models, better tyre physics, less track/aero bugs etc etc.
That's funny educated guesswork to me, either that or your eyesight is really bad. Fixing a few physics bugs and tweaking of car models is hardly going to make LFS seem like a new game (while appreciated all the same).

Oh and I don't think tyre physics are ever going to be drastically different to what we have now since they're just not that far off. We know the circumstances under which there is most disparity but the rest of the time few people would complain on the general feel.

Oh, and sorry for killing your excitement, I forgot, mentally 5 and all. ;) Santa isn't real either. :p

[ATHome]

I've read this whole topic for one hour now and all I've got is thirsty. This has just no informative things in it :D

[tristancliffe]

I too suspect an incompatible patch not too far away but...

That's funny educated guesswork to me, either that or your eyesight is really bad. Fixing a few physics bugs and tweaking of car models is hardly going to make LFS seem like a new game (while appreciated all the same).

Oh and I don't think tyre physics are ever going to be drastically different to what we have now since they're just not that far off. We know the circumstances under which there is most disparity but the rest of the time few people would complain on the general feel.

Oh, and sorry for killing your excitement, I forgot, mentally 5 and all. ;) Santa isn't real either. :p

You knew what I meant - there will be, I reckon (although I have no official work or insight guys), be patches for nearly exery aspect of LFS in the nearish future. Of course it'll still be recognisable, but you don't need to take me that literally...

And Bob, I've discussed this with you before, and it's no good being pig headed about it. Santa is real, and you can whinge all you like about him not bringing you nice presents. Trying to make others believe he isn't real won't make you any bigger or cleverer ;)

[DasBoeseC]

Mahlzeit.....

1. To me LFS is THE BEST SIM ever! I have tried most of the things on the market and usually even own them, but there is simply no other Sim that makes me feel like LFS. In LFS I am racing - In all the other Sims I am playing a racing game.....pretending to be a FIA GT driver for example.....

2. Saying there was no improvement in LFS since the first beta simply stops me from taking you serious.....to quote a slogan: GET REAL

3. Our arguments are not moving in a circle but along a line.....LFS development started at one point in time and it will be finished at one point in time.....no circle analogy here.....

4. Many real race driver enjoy LFS.....at least in Europe.....why not in Brazil, I don't know.....

5. LFS has much room for improvement and is, unlike many other sims, constantly improving over time. Aerodynamics, Sounds and Weather are only three of the things I am sure Scawen, Eric and Victor have on their list.....

6. Saying the things you demand are simple to implement exceeds your (and my) knowledge by far. We all do not know how hard it is to implement any new feature to LFS.....we even can not compare the 3D modeling we can do in 3DSMax or whatever to what Eric does as we do not even know which tools he uses.....

Just my well spend 24£

CU, Sebastian

PS: Can someone explain to me why I can not post a carriage return?

PPS: Now it works :)

[Shotglass]

I don't know, but I expect that we'll be seeing a physics/incompatible patch fairly soon (fairly being a relative term, as it will take time for Scawen to code the fixes once the lagnuage stuff is finalised).

i just hope scawen will pipe out incompatible patches as they are finished and not care about the hotlappers too much
or maybe its just me wanting non exploitable downforce and faster gearboxes asap instead of having to wait until they are perfectly polished rather than just free of major bugs

[SamH]

Santa isn't real either. :p

WHAT!?!?

[Nick_ll]

patches for nearly exery aspect of LFS in the nearish future.
That's very optimistic. I'd say the same but I don't consider one year to be "near future".

[RMachucaA]

Delerue...

If you where smart, you would have realised a LONG time ago LFS is a constant WIP, hence it will have bugs here and there, which are inevitable, specially on a piece of software thats NOT FINISHED, and it is made VERY CLEAR when you purchase LFS that this is a piece of unfished software.

Why do you come here knowing this (im presuming your smart enough to realise this by now)?

If you dont like it, LEAVE and come back when S3 is released (finished product), you'll already have S1 paid for so you only have to pay that little bit more to enjoy an awesome product.

I dont mean to be rude, but you sure arent understanding many things that are being said here...

[ButterTyres]

There no point in feeding this troll people, he comes back and says the same things without making reasonable arguements for his points. Someone please think of the children and lock this thread.... ;)

[Vykos69]

[_]LFS-community knows how to handle Trolls.

Good thing in that? We always try to explain "our love" ;) Bad thing you see, when reading this thread.

Problem of newcomers: They simply did not experience the way the devs work, they do not know, how S1 was released, how patches were coming with new features, how even patches has been developed for some single persons. So the newbies come here and expect a community and a relationship devs-comm. like in other games. I mean even Nick_II somewhere posted "why they dont answer me here?"... Well, he should check scawens and victors post-count. They are active in the forums. Now tell me any other game, where the devs have that connection to the people? So all I can say to you Nick_II: The Devs are more than aware of the problems and little wrong things in LFS, and they are working on it. And you will see it. If you have the S2 licence, you can be sure to be able to play LFS for the next two to three years with constant physics and game updates. This is - as Kid said on page 1 or 2 - a WiP game ;) Enjoy that oportunity, cause no other game will give it to you.

[axus]

Wow! I think we did it! He seems to have given up! :tilt:

[Boris Lozac]

1. In LFS I am racing - In all the other Sims I am playing a racing game.....pretending to be a FIA GT driver for example.....


WOW!!! Can i put this in my signature? Brilliant! :thumb:

[Chris_Kerry]

Wow! I think we did it! He seems to have given up! :tilt:

Don't count your chicken's! :D

[Nick_ll]

[_]LFS-community knows how to handle Trolls.

Good thing in that? We always try to explain "our love" ;) Bad thing you see, when reading this thread.

Problem of newcomers: They simply did not experience the way the devs work, they do not know, how S1 was released, how patches were coming with new features, how even patches has been developed for some single persons. So the newbies come here and expect a community and a relationship devs-comm. like in other games. I mean even Nick_II somewhere posted "why they dont answer me here?"... Well, he should check scawens and victors post-count. They are active in the forums. Now tell me any other game, where the devs have that connection to the people? So all I can say to you Nick_II: The Devs are more than aware of the problems and little wrong things in LFS, and they are working on it. And you will see it. If you have the S2 licence, you can be sure to be able to play LFS for the next two to three years with constant physics and game updates. This is - as Kid said on page 1 or 2 - a WiP game ;) Enjoy that oportunity, cause no other game will give it to you.
Don't reply to my posts directly Vykos. I'm playing LFS since 0.1a I believe (might be b) so I kinda know what to expect from the devs you see. The reason I post things like saying I find Eric is slow is because it is how I honestly feel. I'm probably a bit more cold-headed/less fanboy than most people here because I can see things in a way out. Call that a pessimistic view if you wish. I don't have too much free time so therefore don't play too much LFS either. It's not my way of life, I have other things to do, but sometimes I feel like posting here.
I am one of the few who think the devs don't need to be protected by an elitist community. They need CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM to move forward, not ass licking being told everything they do is always the best ever and everything is marvellous in a wonderful world. They don't need to be protected by anyone. Just like a racecar driver that is criticised can respond by a strong performance on track, the LFS devs can respond to bad critics (i.e. not constructive) by making improvements to their product (because that's what LFS is: a commercial product).

Now as everyone in this thread just seem to keep saying things we already know (like LFS is a constant WIP), I'll point out something you might not have noticed (or at least I've not seen posted yet) that is meant to be constructive, not flamed:
I believe (that's how you start constructive criticism sentences) the suspension modeling, at least 3D (visual) on the Formula cars is wrong in LFS AT THE MOMENT (don't tell me it's WIP I know it, I'm just pointing it out to see what others, and devs think). I say that because I don't see any steering arms on the front suspensions and on the formula cars I've seen or modeled so far, the rear suspensions (at least the top wishbones) look like this: /\| whereas in LFS there is only /\.
I have also noticed that the brake discs don't rotate with the wheels and the calipers on the LX6 on front are not affected by wheel position (in terms of dynamic camber when wheels are steered).

[xaotik]

I believe (that's how you start constructive criticism sentences) the suspension modeling, at least 3D (visual) on the Formula cars is wrong in LFS AT THE MOMENT (don't tell me it's WIP I know it, I'm just pointing it out to see what others, and devs think). I say that because I don't see any steering arms on the front suspensions and on the formula cars I've seen or modeled so far, the rear suspensions (at least the top wishbones) look like this: /\| whereas in LFS there is only /\.
I have also noticed that the brake discs don't rotate with the wheels and the calipers on the LX6 on front are not affected by wheel position (in terms of dynamic camber when wheels are steered).

Have you posted any of these in the Improvement Suggestions subforum (or possibly the bug forum in relation to the LX6's calipers)?

EDIT:
Although I have a suspicion that brake representation, etc will get an overhaul whenever we get brake wear, temperature, etc (please don't scream at me "WHEN!?!?!?!" :) )

[Vykos69]

Well Nick, you really point it out perfectly: You are pessimistic. Look for example at the zillions of track coming right now for rf. Name me one of them, that really matches the quality of the S2 tracks. Just from the texture, bumps and trackside objects point of view. You might find one, but then look for a fantasy-track for RF, that nearly comes close to Erics tracks. You might find one in the next three years. That's where the worktime goes. It goes into quality.

Besides that, if you believe it or not, I am a damn critical guy, and the devs might hate me for that from time to time, when I go on their nerves. And that's like a lot of LFS-fans are. They are critical, they KNOW the failures, they posted them in thousands of threads in the improvement part, but the difference is: They know, that they are read and the things will change, the appreciate the progress. That is the difference. Got the idea? Most of other gamefans dont accept that, when I say: "Yes, you are right, tire-phys, sound etc. arent good atm, but it's being worked on". Cause a rf fanboy cant say: "Yes, you are right, gfx-engine is too cartoonish, the cars look bad, the physics has errors at slow speed, but it will improve", cause they simply DONT know if it will improve. They just can prey for a patch, or prey that the devs listen to them. Same was it with GTR. The community mentioned a lot of stuff, especially in terms of dedi-server for example. And how were they threated? Nothing happened to a lot of the well known bugs. I take myself the right, to point at those bugs in other games, cause I also point at the bugs in LFS, damn I dont know how often I said, the tires are wrong.

Take your critics about the formula suspension: I havent looked into that, but you might be right, and that's a worthy post for improvement suggestion, but take your post about not spinning brakediscs... Come on, that's a: on the list since years but b: a feature - thank god - way way down the list of important improvements.

Last thing: Whenever I talk with the devs, I am always surprised how far they look, how deeply they understand the problems and I can say for sure, that they are their own biggest critic, with an insight into the real problems of the code that no one of us can match.

[Goresh]

Hello I know I'm new here but in the past few days I've read several threads started by obvious pro-GTR fans bashing LFS for one reason or another. I've also noticed that as quick as the thread gets heated with LFS defenders the original poster slips away, leaving everyone bickering among themselves. I'm really starting to wonder if this was the true intentions behind these threads. Certainly makes more sense than being unhappy with a demo. Lowering ones self to these trolls is neither productive and imo not what the devs had inmind when they started this forum. Lets not give them the satisfaction I say, when a thread appears with a subject as this one does, it says more if no one responds, it tells the poster no one agrees with you.

[nikimere]

oh god!

i haven't read any further than the 1st page.... :(
can we get a button that just bans all moaners please! an nice big one so it only takes me a split second to click!
can people not give the devs a break, whats the rush? S2 is amazing, and alot more realistic than any other car game.
so just shut up, sit back, and enjoy! :smileypul

[DasBoeseC]

*cough*

@Delerue - nikimere is a real race-driver and what did he just say?

S2 is amazing, and alot more realistic than any other car game.

*cough*


CU, Sebastian

PS: @Boris Lozac - Sure....go ahead, mate :)

[ButterTyres]

*cough*

You wanna get that cough checked mate heheheh

[XRRoy]

hehe i really enjoyed reading this topic:smileypul

but the topic starter should buy s3 when it's out. Then he might be thinking different:nod:

[Breizh]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=774

[Delerue]

[...] The reason I post things like saying I find Eric is slow is because it is how I honestly feel. I'm probably a bit more cold-headed/less fanboy than most people here because I can see things in a way out.

[...]

I am one of the few who think the devs don't need to be protected by an elitist community. They need CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM to move forward, not ass licking being told everything they do is always the best ever and everything is marvellous in a wonderful world. They don't need to be protected by anyone. Just like a racecar driver that is criticised can respond by a strong performance on track, the LFS devs can respond to bad critics (i.e. not constructive) by making improvements to their product (because that's what LFS is: a commercial product).

I don't think people you'll hear what you perfectly said. They think that all people in the world are just fans. So, if you don't like one thing in LFS, you must love GTR or rFactor or... They can't see that all the games have problems (I can list a lot of GTR bugs, per example), but if a game has a problem it must be fixed yesterday. And if a game has too much problems, so the DEVs must work 24 hours, everyday to bring back the consumers money spent. And if a game has a lot of old problems, there's something wrong with the DEVs. AND if a game has all these things associated with a precarious game-play, so we have a really serious problem.

Nevertheless, the point here is that we (you alone and me) talking with blind guys, that will gonna do anything to protect the love of their lives. So, give up. Congratulations to the DEVs, that trick out so much people. I'll play GT Legends: more beautil (dynamic lighting, pixel shaders, high polygon count etc.), more loud (real samples, multi-channel support, doppler), more realistc, more cheaper and it has almost all the great cars I care about. See U. :thumb:

[tristancliffe]

But it has Starforce, poor physics, fake force feedback, terrible netcode, more expensive, and has mostly rubbish cars that don't feel realistic.

Whatever floats your boat. Perhaps you don't know what a good sim should feel like...

[Delerue]

But it has Starforce, poor physics, fake force feedback, terrible netcode, more expensive, and has mostly rubbish cars that don't feel realistic.

Whatever floats your boat. Perhaps you don't know what a good sim should feel like...

Just to make myself clear: I don't play Starforce (even hating it). Poor physics is your opinion, that can't be proved. Fake force feedback, idem (BTW, have you ever read what you said in another place?). Netcode is worst, you're (finally) right, but I play offline almost all the time. More expensive is in your insane math world. Oh! I forgot to say: GT Legends is a finished game. :)

Ending here...
Later

[Breizh]

I still think the best thing you can do is get in touch with the LFS devs and see what they think of your precise and concise business plan.
You're obviously ahead of them, it'd be a loss to every LFS player for you not to pull Scawen & co out of their error.

bye bye

[tristancliffe]

But GTL comes with Starforce, so you have to (there is no fully working Starforce killer just yet afaik).
Poor Physics can be proven - look at the cars, and look at the speeds they can go round corners etc.
Where have I said GTL has nice force feedback? LFS's is the only FFB I'd consider using if I had the choice - and I do.
My Insane Maths World? Well, GTL has a recommended retail price of about 30. LFS is £24. I doubt you'd even get GTL from Amazon cheaper. Plus LFS is better in every area, and will always be so, and isn't finished, so it'll get better :D
The fact that GTL is 'finished' isn't a good thing - it just means that in 6 months time they'll buzz off another racing game costing the same with no added features. Woot.

[keiran]

Just to make myself clear: I don't play Starforce (even hating it). Poor physics is your opinion, that can't be proved. Fake force feedback, idem (BTW, have you ever read what you said in another place?). Netcode is worst, you're (finally) right, but I play offline almost all the time. More expensive is in your insane math world. Oh! I forgot to say: GT Legends is a finished game. :)

Ending here...
Later

Just like GTR then which is made by Simbin and is still full of bugs :scratchch

[axus]

See you! I'm happy you are going! The LFS community needs no ignorant losers that like you. It is great as it is.

[Breizh]

No, Delerue is on to something.
Even now, Scawen is trashing all the work towards S3 and switching over to sample-based engine sounds, polishing unfinished graphic framework with tons and tons of pixel shader tech, giving up any and all open-ended development in conjunction with players...
It's all band-aid patches and cash-milking users with quick and dirty coding from now on!

[askoff]

. Poor physics is your opinion, that can't be proved.
This realy puzles me. Have you thougt even at once that you could be the one who is wrong? As you replyed to Delerue about his opinnion about physics can't be proven, but what about your opinnion on the LFS physics? It is possible that the lack of realism that you feel is just that you can't see it right (like sensation of speed for example) or you are used to some other game's sensations of realism and you just think that it's more real than LFS.
Also there are lot of settings in games that affectd to the feeling of realism, so it's very hard to say which one is closest to realsim. That's why you just have to try different settings to LFS and the cars so perhaps you can found what you are looking for.

[JJ72]

Not all LFS fans are blind, not all LFS fans are seduced by the game to an extent that we overlook all problems, no all LFS fans debate for the game beyond reason and common sense - however LFSers that are not blind will usually sit out an debate which peaceful and constructive argument is absent, and LFSers that are not blind won't put a clear mark between "you" non-LFSers and "us" LFSers, the moment such differentiation occurs then there's no point arguing anymore, because whatever points can be entited as "fanboyish" or "GTRboyish", which is unfair for both party. LFS is found on self-evaluation and criticism, that's it nature and indeed it has it holdbacks, it's easy to point a finger at it and it's as easy to use it as an excuse of the game's shortcomings. Honestly no one knows what LFS will eventually become, no one can be sure which game will eventually become the sim of all sim, we all came in anticipation, in high hopes, and so far what we have seen is much more than satisfactory - why can I say that? Can I prove that? No, but its' something that I can feel being part of this community, this development programme, such thing is totally subjective, outside the scope of consumer psychology, beyond marketing principals, but it's real, at least for most of us. I don't think anyone choose a game with absolute reason, feeling and senses are just as important, it's a simple fact- you choose a game by test driving it, not looking in it's physic codes. Because it's the end product that matters, and in LFS, such imperfections and sometimes frustration is part of the end product.

Does it make it a better game? Or a worse game? I don't know, history might tell, and by the time the answer arises, it might not matter anymore.

Love always include some sort of blindness, and it's not a fault, it's just a thing that get us going, keep us doing this stupid unrealistic activity in front of a monitor, just as we do since the first day video games were born.

Fallicies or not, valid argument or not, I wish you have fun with GT legends, and I hope you does share the same emotions with that game, because it isn't much fun steering a wheel in front of what you know is just a bugged line of codes, if you find that game more immersive then so be it, just bare in mind when you are lapping happily and on the limit, in the same time you are just as blind as everyone.

[AndroidXP]

^ What he said :nod:

[bbman]

*applauses JJ72 for his great statement*

I totally agree with you... :nod:

[Richard Torp]

I bought an ALPHA version...does the Delerue boy knows what an ALPHA version means? I know what it is...an unfinished version who can have some bugs etc. etc. I bought GTL as a finished game, but still there are bugs in it. Simbin working on a patch i guess, the LFS devs. works to FINNISH the S2 and then make S3, when thats finnished its a COMPLETE game, then you can compare it with other finnished games...:schwitz:

[axus]

I bought an ALPHA version...does the Delerue boy knows what an ALPHA version means? I know what it is...an unfinished version who can have some bugs etc. etc. I bought GTL as a finished game, but still there are bugs in it. Simbin working on a patch i guess, the LFS devs. works to FINNISH the S2 and then make S3, when thats finnished its a COMPLETE game, then you can compare it with other finnished games...:schwitz:

While I do agree with what you are basically saying, I would aslo like to point out that S2 Final aims to have as much of the physics of racing covered as most complete products out today - basically most things, apart from weather effects. Even if those are simulated in some games at the moment, the simulation is not very good and therefore S2 will be very much comparable with the likes of GTL and GTR, if you just exclude their "simulation" of weather effects. :nod:

[cannonfodder]

i just hope scawen will pipe out incompatible patches as they are finished and not care about the hotlappers too much
Hear hear, screw the hotlappers until S2 is finalized.

[axus]

Hear hear, screw the hotlappers until S2 is finalized.
:iagree:

:trampolin :star: :biggrinfl :hug:

:huepfenic

[Scawen]

Could some people please stop thinking that the only reason they don't get physics updates is because of hotlaps. SPRs and hotlaps being made invalid are only one reason. But i'm seeing the same thing mentioned all over the place, some myth that hotlaps are stopping people getting new physics updates.

If there is any change in physics, there is an ONLINE COMPATIBILITY issue. Old physics and new physics cannot join together. Some people will download the test patch, and some people will upgrade their hosts. So then the people with the new version, would be all alone in their sub-community of people who like to get incompatible test patches. So then they'll say "we like the new physics" and some other people will start to get the new patch. Meanwhile, the people who never heard about the new patch, will wonder where everyone's gone. Then we'll discover a bug in the new physics so hundreds of people will be annoyed that they got the test version and didn't wait for the final version. Then a new patch will come out with some more improvements. People will wonder whether they should get the new one or not.

Then what you can't imagine is the anger that starts to be stirred up. Posts all over the web on different forums and shout boxes "why are there so many stupid patches" and "what is wrong with these developers". For some people it's a big effort to download a patch, and it makes them angry and uneasy.

Compatible test patches are very easy, get them if you want to, no disruption to the community. So it makes sense to do as many compatible things as possible (which need to be done anyway - it's bad when people can't type in their own language) before starting on and releasing physics changes, changes to car models and tracks, and other online compatibility changes. Anyway, how could i code physics changes, at the same time as updating the language support? I can only do one thing at a time.

So, as we always say, and as we have learned from experience, incompatible patches are kept to the minimum, due to the community distruption they cause. Compatible test patches can be released freely and that's the time when many game updates are done. When i'm working on the incompatible things, you probably won't hear from me for a few months, as i'll just be focussed on those very difficult things, and there won't be anything to test until several things are done.

[axus]

Would it not be possible to only make final patches (Q, R, S) incompatible and then have the master server send a packet with the current version when you connect? Then if there is a new incompatible patch out, it would let you know... If a new incompatible patch is realeased at at most, once a month (which is ambitious too considering all the coding involved) I can see no reason for people to complain... Just my 2c... I see your point though.

[FPVaaron]

Could some people please stop thinking that the only reason they don't get physics updates is because of hotlaps. SPRs and hotlaps being made invalid are only one reason. But i'm seeing the same thing mentioned all over the place, some myth that hotlaps are stopping people getting new physics updates.

If there is any change in physics, there is an ONLINE COMPATIBILITY issue. Old physics and new physics cannot join together. Some people will download the test patch, and some people will upgrade their hosts. So then the people with the new version, would be all alone in their sub-community of people who like to get incompatible test patches. So then they'll say "we like the new physics" and some other people will start to get the new patch. Meanwhile, the people who never heard about the new patch, will wonder where everyone's gone. Then we'll discover a bug in the new physics so hundreds of people will be annoyed that they got the test version and didn't wait for the final version. Then a new patch will come out with some more improvements. People will wonder whether they should get the new one or not.

Then what you can't imagine is the anger that starts to be stirred up. Posts all over the web on different forums and shout boxes "why are there so many stupid patches" and "what is wrong with these developers". For some people it's a big effort to download a patch, and it makes them angry and uneasy.

Compatible test patches are very easy, get them if you want to, no disruption to the community. So it makes sense to do as many compatible things as possible (which need to be done anyway - it's bad when people can't type in their own language) before starting on and releasing physics changes, changes to car models and tracks, and other online compatibility changes. Anyway, how could i code physics changes, at the same time as updating the language support? I can only do one thing at a time.

So, as we always say, and as we have learned from experience, incompatible patches are kept to the minimum, due to the community distruption they cause. Compatible test patches can be released freely and that's the time when many game updates are done. When i'm working on the incompatible things, you probably won't hear from me for a few months, as i'll just be focussed on those very difficult things, and there won't be anything to test until several things are done.


Two cats running sideways.

[TagForce]

Could some people please stop thinking that the only reason they don't get physics updates is because of hotlaps. SPRs and hotlaps being made invalid are only one reason. But i'm seeing the same thing mentioned all over the place, some myth that hotlaps are stopping people getting new physics updates.

If there is any change in physics, there is an ONLINE COMPATIBILITY issue. Old physics and new physics cannot join together. Some people will download the test patch, and some people will upgrade their hosts. So then the people with the new version, would be all alone in their sub-community of people who like to get incompatible test patches. So then they'll say "we like the new physics" and some other people will start to get the new patch. Meanwhile, the people who never heard about the new patch, will wonder where everyone's gone. Then we'll discover a bug in the new physics so hundreds of people will be annoyed that they got the test version and didn't wait for the final version. Then a new patch will come out with some more improvements. People will wonder whether they should get the new one or not.

Then what you can't imagine is the anger that starts to be stirred up. Posts all over the web on different forums and shout boxes "why are there so many stupid patches" and "what is wrong with these developers". For some people it's a big effort to download a patch, and it makes them angry and uneasy.

Compatible test patches are very easy, get them if you want to, no disruption to the community. So it makes sense to do as many compatible things as possible (which need to be done anyway - it's bad when people can't type in their own language) before starting on and releasing physics changes, changes to car models and tracks, and other online compatibility changes. Anyway, how could i code physics changes, at the same time as updating the language support? I can only do one thing at a time.

So, as we always say, and as we have learned from experience, incompatible patches are kept to the minimum, due to the community distruption they cause. Compatible test patches can be released freely and that's the time when many game updates are done. When i'm working on the incompatible things, you probably won't hear from me for a few months, as i'll just be focussed on those very difficult things, and there won't be anything to test until several things are done.

Too bad Delerue has left already... Even though this post is kind of offtopic thank you for explaining the reason behind not releasing incompatible patches this clearly...

Now, can the rest of you please get back to defending this "God" from Delerue? :) (that was a JOKE... Laugh, dammit!)

[Scawen]

Even though this post is kind of offtopic thank you for explaining...I was just replying to the two posts before mine, and the what the quote referred to, whenever that was.

I can't reply on topic. How to reply to "WTF happened with the DEVs?" :Looking_a :D :scratchch :bigeye:

[Resound]

Actually, come to think of it, you just told us wtf is up with the devs to a fair extent so you were on topic :)

[CrazyICE]

I was just replying to the two posts before mine, and the what the quote referred to, whenever that was.

I can't reply on topic. How to reply to "WTF happened with the DEVs?"

don't let u down because of such posts!
you are doing a great job and you are on the right way...

[AndroidXP]

How to reply to "WTF happened with the DEVs?""Nothing, besides some karting"

[CrazyICE]

"Nothing, besides some karting"
lol :nod:

[Fonnybone]

I can't reply on topic. How to reply to "WTF happened with the DEVs?" :Looking_a :D :scratchch :bigeye:

Well, considering you've all been working on LFS for 3-4 years, i think it's normal that you guys take some time off. Everyone does. I
for one would like to thank the 3 of you for your vision, your perceverance and the sheer guts to go against the grain and try to do
all this on your own. Sure makes it funnier to read some peeps complain of lack of licensing when they won't even pay for LFS.
They'd rather give more money to already rich super-mega-organisations rather than help honest people start out from scratch.
Values are so corrupted today it's crazy :p They' ll all be crying the day they learn their soul belongs to EA.

There may lie another reason for enjoying LFS, getting aways from all you crazy people !!!! AHHHH :scared:

I still remember the day i found LFS.

"Mmm, looks interesting...OH, it's free too !"
Then, after a few laps...
"Wow, i can't believe this game is free !!"

[tristancliffe]

When i'm working on the incompatible things, you probably won't hear from me for a few months, as i'll just be focussed on those very difficult things, and there won't be anything to test until several things are done.

Okay, so when we don't hear from you for a few months, and all the demo weirdo's start crying, we know what to say.

Have you thought about (who am I kidding, of course you have) an auto updater thing? X-plane, which has many parallels to LFS, have recently implemented such a thing, and it grabs only the updated files, thus making downloads really quick. Add to that a little check for updates bit on loading LFS (or on searching for servers, when LFS actually connects to the net) and everything would be relatively hunky dory.

Of course, you still need a method to ensure hosts get updated, but most hosts are LFS regulars and will notice an update.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling or advising you how to do your job, I'm just discussing the merits or otherwise of different methods. On one side players want to see lots of updates, regardless of whether its compatible (at least during Alpha states), but on the other it's quite a big change to make an incompatible version that stops older LFS's from working, and they may not know why. I personally think there is a solution somewhere, although quite what I don't know. And obviously we can't speed up the changes because you have to program them in the first place, so no arguments there.

There is also this suggestion of having LFS remember several states, which was mainly thought of to keep replays working after updates. Could a similar thing, theoretically, be used for all aspects? i.e. someone running patch Q connects to a patch P server (or loads a patch p replay), and LFS uses the physics/values/curves etc from the relevant patch? If someone connects to a patch Q server with patch P they get a polite message saying this is running on a new version, and you need to go here to get the update (which will only be a few MB probably anyway). Maybe only have it so that LFS is backward compatible by one or two stages at the most.

Just brainstorming, and not necessarily well...

[thisnameistaken]

There is also this suggestion of having LFS remember several states, which was mainly thought of to keep replays working after updates. Could a similar thing, theoretically, be used for all aspects? i.e. someone running patch Q connects to a patch P server (or loads a patch p replay), and LFS uses the physics/values/curves etc from the relevant patch?

Whoa there! LFS is tricky enough as it is - I don't want to be switching between different physics models each time I change servers!

[xaotik]

Somehow I think that this matter has been blown way out of proportion and analysed to death.

If some people don't have patience and insist on updates, that's okay - it just means that they're used to updates to LFS (something not many gaming communities can boast about).

It might not be important to you - but personally I like it that I can use LFS in Greek and type in Greek characters to other users about as much as I like seeing other people converse in cyrillic chars on my screen... it just adds a little something of diversity. A pal of mine the other day saw the LFS garage menu on my screen and did a double take - "hey, this is... in Greek!" (a very rare sight for games, not to mention simulators).

[axus]

Whoa there! LFS is tricky enough as it is - I don't want to be switching between different physics models each time I change servers!

I agree with that... that would complicate things waaaay too much. I can imagine my setup folder: "WE1_0.5P_Race", "WE1_0.5Q_Hotlap"... "AS5_0.5P_RACE2"... :Looking_a

[axus]

It might not be important to you - but personally I like it that I can use LFS in Greek and type in Greek characters to other users about as much as I like seeing other people converse in cyrillic chars on my screen... it just adds a little something of diversity. A pal of mine the other day saw the LFS garage menu on my screen and did a double take - "hey, this is... in Greek!" (a very rare sight for games, not to mention simulators).

I have supported the whole language thing since the first language patches came along - its a huge thing and I am sure it is very welcoming for new racers from other countries. It will help the community grow. :thumb:

[Chris_Kerry]

I have supported the whole language thing since the first language patches came along - its a huge thing and I am sure it is very welcoming for new racers from other countries. It will help the community grow. :thumb:

:iagree:

[tristancliffe]

Hmmmm, was just trying to think of ways to make incompatible patches a bit more compatible, so that some folk don't think LFS has died cos there are no servers for them, when in fact we've all just updated overnight...

[Delerue]

[ALL]

I think it was a mistake to think that every one that plays LFS comes everyday to this forum. How much time would you spend writing a few words about the progress of the LFS in the main page? :(

I think it was a mistake to promise the final release to december/2004, and not have it done almost one year (!) after that. I think it was a mistake to charge an expensive price to something that was not ready and has a lot of old and critical bugs.

But I understand one thing: since most people love your game, so you thought there was no reason to care about those things. It's sad, just sad.

[Chris_Kerry]

I think it was a mistake to think that every one that plays LFS comes everyday to this forum. How much time would you spend writing a few words about the progress of the LFS in the main page? :(

I think it was a mistake to promise the final release to december/2004, and not have it done almost one year (!) after that. I think it was a mistake to charge an expensive price to something that was not ready and has a lot of old and critical bugs.

But I understand one thing: since most people love your game, so you thought there was no reason to care about those things. It's sad, just sad.

To say that the developers don't care about this game is the most stupid statement I have ever heard.

[_Rob_]

They never promised anything date wise
It is not an expensive game. Maybe it is where you are, but over here S1+S2 = £24. Most new games now are £35-£40.
Since you seem to be so unhappy about the way LFS is being created, how come you're still posting here complaining, after all the replies saying how you're wrong...

[Victor]

I think it was a mistake to think that every one that plays LFS comes everyday to this forum. How much time would you spend writing a few words about the progress of the LFS in the main page? :(

I think it was a mistake to promise the final release to december/2004, and not have it done almost one year (!) after that. I think it was a mistake to charge an expensive price to something that was not ready and has a lot of old and critical bugs.

But I understand one thing: since most people love your game, so you thought there was no reason to care about those things. It's sad, just sad.

You say a lot, but I hear nothing. What exactly is it you want out of this conversation? Just complain? Well, you have complained now, give it a rest. Or maybe you have some other things to complain about as well - just write them down here and get it off your chest.

If you actually want something from us, then why not write a more constructive post? So far you're only complaining about things that you think are bad. Well, it's noted and we may or may not consider it in future desicions. End of story.

But if you keep repeating yourself like a broken record, this thread will be closed sooner or later.

[(FIN)Eza]

I think it was a mistake to think that every one that plays LFS comes everyday to this forum. How much time would you spend writing a few words about the progress of the LFS in the main page? :(

I think it was a mistake to promise the final release to december/2004, and not have it done almost one year (!) after that. I think it was a mistake to charge an expensive price to something that was not ready and has a lot of old and critical bugs.

But I understand one thing: since most people love your game, so you thought there was no reason to care about those things. It's sad, just sad.

You're quite funny, I love you :lovies3d: :smileypul

:smileyrai :rofl:




Eza

[STROBE]

I think it was a mistake to think that every one that plays LFS comes everyday to this forum.
Where did Scawen say that? There's nothing to indicate the game has been abandoned by the devs, indeed even the latest news posting indicates that the devs have been having something of a break from it. Only your failure to comprehend, tolerate, or support the business model leads to you thinking everyone is still expected to check the forums.

I think it was a mistake to charge an expensive price to something that was not ready and has a lot of old and critical bugs.
How many times do you have to be told? It's not expensive - it's 2/3rds developed and it costs 2/3rds of a full price game. You're made aware you are not buying a finished product when you purchase it. Some of the bugs may be old, but I've yet to notice any critical bugs - there's nothing stopping anyone playing it or having close racing. A critical bug would be a server locking up whenever anyone chooses, say, an FZR.

But I understand one thing: since most people love your game, so you thought there was no reason to care about those things. It's sad, just sad.
What's even sadder is someone who complains and then fails to listen to or attempt to understand various explanations of the different business model and approach to game making.

[axus]

I think it was a mistake to think that every one that plays LFS comes everyday to this forum. How much time would you spend writing a few words about the progress of the LFS in the main page? :(

I think it was a mistake to promise the final release to december/2004, and not have it done almost one year (!) after that. I think it was a mistake to charge an expensive price to something that was not ready and has a lot of old and critical bugs.

But I understand one thing: since most people love your game, so you thought there was no reason to care about those things. It's sad, just sad.

OMG, your ignorance is amazing. S2 is not final and people bought it before it was even released. These people are lucky to recieve this ALPHA version. NOTE: ALPHA. Please point out some of these old and critical bugs while you are at it - because I can't think of one that is both old and critical. If you refer to the lack of drivability of cars, please learn how to drive and do not blame LFS for your lack of skill. If you look here (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=774&page=4), you will see some replays I posted using the default setups to demonstrate that the cars are very much drivable. It was followed by someone saying that despite the fact that he complained about it at first he is unable to find these problems anymore. I know some bugs that fall into one of the categories, but none in both. And by the way - they did not promise that they would release it Dec 2004, they said they might. You have a funny habbit of putting words in people's mouths. Please read people's statements/comments more carefully or learn English before trying to guess what they are saying.

[SniperX]

....this thread will be closed sooner or later.
:scratchch :nod: :smileypul

[jmkz]

don't close the thread, just remove his posts;)

[jscorrea]

Delerue is much problematic, dont reply this man!!!:pillepall

Regards,

JS

[Honey]

Could some people please stop thinking that the only reason they don't get physics updates is because of hotlaps. SPRs and hotlaps being made invalid are only one reason. But i'm seeing the same thing mentioned all over the place, some myth that hotlaps are stopping people getting new physics updates.

If there is any change in physics, there is an ONLINE COMPATIBILITY issue. Old physics and new physics cannot join together. Some people will download the test patch, and some people will upgrade their hosts. So then the people with the new version, would be all alone in their sub-community of people who like to get incompatible test patches. So then they'll say "we like the new physics" and some other people will start to get the new patch. Meanwhile, the people who never heard about the new patch, will wonder where everyone's gone. Then we'll discover a bug in the new physics so hundreds of people will be annoyed that they got the test version and didn't wait for the final version. Then a new patch will come out with some more improvements. People will wonder whether they should get the new one or not.

Then what you can't imagine is the anger that starts to be stirred up. Posts all over the web on different forums and shout boxes "why are there so many stupid patches" and "what is wrong with these developers". For some people it's a big effort to download a patch, and it makes them angry and uneasy.

Compatible test patches are very easy, get them if you want to, no disruption to the community. So it makes sense to do as many compatible things as possible (which need to be done anyway - it's bad when people can't type in their own language) before starting on and releasing physics changes, changes to car models and tracks, and other online compatibility changes. Anyway, how could i code physics changes, at the same time as updating the language support? I can only do one thing at a time.

So, as we always say, and as we have learned from experience, incompatible patches are kept to the minimum, due to the community distruption they cause. Compatible test patches can be released freely and that's the time when many game updates are done. When i'm working on the incompatible things, you probably won't hear from me for a few months, as i'll just be focussed on those very difficult things, and there won't be anything to test until several things are done.

you can make those patches available only for single player and not online, so only those who really want to see how development is going will download it and apply on a different copy of lfs, so they can help you by deeply testing it...i think this solution can satisfy everyone...what do you think? :)

by the way, i understand you may be so disappointed for threads like this one, but the reasons are that you, eric and victor are Superstars to us, our Superheroes!!! we only want to know you three are there and what you are planning...we think of you more as "friends"!
there are people that will never be satisfied and people that will always ask for more...and to be honest i felt so unhappy when i realised you were spending so much time for the "characters patch" because i consider it much less urgent than everything else, but i kept it for myself because i understand it is not easy for you guys to hear all our complaints...but as you can see i just surrendered to temptation and i said it... :D

i understand you guys are always in a difficult position (we are crazy kids to handle :D ), but if once in a while you can tell us what's goin' on or if you can ask us what we would like first ( :shy: ) maybe we can handle easier this abstinence crisis of such drug called LFS :D

Honey (just another kiddie never satisfied :D )

[avih]

no need to close this thread, it'll die by itself. he has the right to complain and others have the right not to feed such trolls, untill they become constructive.

[Fonnybone]

by the way, i understand you may be so disappointed for threads like this one, but the reasons are that you, eric and victor are Superstars to us, our Superheroes!!! we only want to know you three are there and what you are planning...we think of you more as "friends"!


That's a good observation, i never understood why people who idolize someone can end up being such a nuisance. Why annoy
the very people you idolize !?

Anyways, i think Scawen was trying to say that if certain patches aren't out yet, there's a reason. I would find it insulting
to be told constantly what to do and read all these uninformed comments naively thinking they can solve world hunger as if
no brighter person ever though of it before. We all have ideas, big deal, the difference comes down to action. They have
created this wonderfull game, something i don't think many of us have accomplished, so that should give us a clue of their
skills. I mean, this is the same game that has riveted so many of us, how can you not trust these guys ?! :)

[Arthur Cavalera]

Delerue is much problematic, dont reply this man!!!:pillepall

Regards,

JS

jscorrea is correct
guess you guys shouldn't lose your time with this kind of guy

He is always making trouble inside Brazilian Sim Communities, cause he thinks LFS is worse than everything.

Well, don't mind, he does it all the time.

But, now that i'm here, posting... I want to say that LFS is simply the best racing sim i ever played (with GPL too hehe). I think that the game is growing on the right way and we should thank the devs by giving us the finest simulator on the word. Even the sims from big companies aren't match for LFS.

LFS got some bugs? yeah, like almost every game/program that exists, but I'm sure that the DEVs are going to make an excellent work to solve then when it's possible


Love LFS :lovies3d: LOL!

[Delerue]

You say a lot, but I hear nothing. What exactly is it you want out of this conversation? Just complain?

I'm doing what the fans don't do: tell the problems, without fear or something like that. But you simply didn't answer any of my questions and thoughts. Strange...

Look, I like the game, and think it has a lot of potential things, but I can't deny there's still a lot to be done. And things that had to be done a long time ago; that's the main problem. And you (DEVs) thought this is normal, and that you don't have to say anything about it to the consumers. I remember that before you realeased the alpha version, the progress reports were abounding. Strange...

I think you know the most important bugs and problems: sound (where's the multi-channel support? where's the gear sound? doppler? could the crash sounds be at least closer to reality? and so much more...); aero bugs; visual body damage bugs; tyres physics (please, it's impossible that you think a car loses grip at such low rates of speed.); force feedback (how about shaking the joystick-wheel as the engine rotation increases? and how about simulating bumps on the track? there are so many things yet to be done with force feedback...). Well, those are some of the things.

Thanks for you cooperation, and don't lose your mind, man. You have an image to be uphold. ;)

Best regards

[KiD-OtA]

Now let´s all give a hug in Delerue , and tell him that if he doesn´t like LFS , no one is forcing he to play it and that we won´t miss him :)

[Victor]

I think you know the most important bugs and problems: sound (where's the multi-channel support? where's the gear sound? doppler? could the crash sounds be at least closer to reality? and so much more...); aero bugs; visual body damage bugs; tyres physics (please, it's impossible that you think a car loses grip at such low rates of speed.); force feedback (how about shaking the joystick-wheel as the engine rotation increases? and how about simulating bumps on the track? there are so many things yet to be done with force feedback...). Well, those are some of the things.


hihihi, see I think you underestimate the process of developing a big piece of software like LFS is. We already know LFS S2 has shortcomings and believe me, Scawen's to-do list is MUCH bigger than your list :)
But we've been working on LFS for the past several years, with nearly no vacation, working 7 days a week, 12+ hours a day. Now that S2 Alpha is released and because the S2 Alpha really isn't bad in the sense of "omg this sucks", we have decided to take a break and not work 7 days a week 12+ hours a day anymore and we needed a break from LFS, to pick up our social lives again. That's why it's been much more quiet than before S2 alpha. But trust me, we'll be back on the job. We're already back on the job in fact (see the test patches and my updates etc) but at a bit lower gear than before.

But believe you me, we _know_ there are still things missing/to-do/improve - just cut us some slack. We're only human :)

[_Rob_]

force feedback (how about shaking the joystick-wheel as the engine rotation increases? and how about simulating bumps on the track? there are so many things yet to be done with force feedback...). Well, those are some of the things.

So, the sort of horrible fake FF effects that are in GTR etc?
Don't know what cars you've driven, but nothing I've driven has a steering wheel that shakes as you rev....

[axus]

I think you know the most important bugs and problems: sound (where's the multi-channel support? where's the gear sound? doppler? could the crash sounds be at least closer to reality? and so much more...); aero bugs; visual body damage bugs; tyres physics (please, it's impossible that you think a car loses grip at such low rates of speed.); force feedback (how about shaking the joystick-wheel as the engine rotation increases? and how about simulating bumps on the track? there are so many things yet to be done with force feedback...). Well, those are some of the things.

Yes, you have a point, and Victor answered most of your questions. But I would like to agree with Victor and say that LFS is very much playable on the level of other simulations out there, if not better. About the sounds - multi-channel support would be nice, but it hasn't been seen as urgent as some other bugs so it hasn't been sorted out yet. The other sounds would be nice to have but are not necessary for the moment. And the LFS engine sounds which give you the most feedback are some of the best out there. The aero bugs are known and will be worked on soon. I think Scawen explained very clearly why it has not been delt with. Tyre physics, as many have said is good where it matters and therefore the low speed physics is just nit-picking and a lot less relevant than some other things. Force feedback over bumps? What do I feel when I drive on curbing or going over the slightest bump on a track? The bumps are not random, they are part of the track models and the wheel shakes accordingly when going over one.

[Nick_ll]

Just a little point here for some people:
In the UK and some other places, LFS costs 2/3rd of a full game for an (almost) 2/3rd developped game. What many of you reply to Delerue is that previous line. Has it EVER come to your mind (those who reply the "game is cheaper" argument) that somewhere else in the world, with the exchange rates, the 2/3rd completed game might cost 100% or 75% of a full game? That's 3/3 or 3/4, not 2/3.
Here in Canada for example, right now as we speak, 24GBP is 49.56CAD. So let's agree for 50$. I see here brand new games on shelves for 60$.
Do the math: 50/60=83%.
LFS is in version 0.5 and S2 final (what you pay with 24GBP) will be 66% developped. Not 83%. So here in Canada, LFS IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

So stop saying the arguement it's not: IT IS, depending where you live.

[Huru-aito]

Look, I like the game, and think it has a lot of potential things, but I can't deny there's still a lot to be done. And things that had to be done a long time ago; that's the main problem.

At least they eventually will do something to the issues. That can't be said of some other developers. Since you seem to be a bit thick, I'll type this out plain and simple: LFS S2 was released as an alpha version, mainly because the need for a new version was growing by the minute. The game even comes with a warning that says (among other things):


This is an ALPHA release. This means it is not yet finished and is still in the development and testing stage.


I think you know the most important bugs and problems: sound (where's the multi-channel support? where's the gear sound? doppler? could the crash sounds be at least closer to reality? and so much more...); aero bugs; visual body damage bugs; tyres physics (please, it's impossible that you think a car loses grip at such low rates of speed.); force feedback (how about shaking the joystick-wheel as the engine rotation increases? and how about simulating bumps on the track? there are so many things yet to be done with force feedback...). Well, those are some of the things.

-Sound: it's already noted that there's room for improvements. But do you actually know what a doppler effect is? It sounds like the car's sound does change according to the direction the car is traveling - would be weird to whine about a feature that is already in the game.

-Aero bugs (while you don't have a S2 license you can't really say much of the racecars since you can't possibly know how good or bad the downforce modeling is at the moment) and tyre physics: they aren't 100% accurate but good enough at this point. Nobody has said there would be no development on these.

-Force feedback: your comments don't really make any sense. Feeling the engine through the steering wheel? Why would that happen? I know some games have this effect but for what reason? Sure, a minor (the steering column isn't mounted to the engine) vibration can be carried through the steering but in no way is it a necessity especially when anything else would overcome the effect when moving. Simulating bumps? If the bumps affect steering rods then the FFB wheel will react - no point making any excessive effects since you wouldn't feel them through the wheel in real life, but with your body in general. LFS FFB isn't like other sims' FFB, it doesn't try to mimic the general vibrations of the car but, done realistically, only the forces you feel through the steering of a real car.

Comparing LFS to other sims is pointless, compare it to real life.

[(FIN)Eza]

Delerue..


Ok you don't like LFS and we have seen your thoughts. Can you please stop whining now or is there something else what you wanna say than just 'LFS sucks'? :) You can always forget this game and go play your lovely GTR or whatever you play, maybe your IQ isn't high enough to realize that tho.. :pillepall

Or maybe 12 years old guy who wants to have fun in some forums? :smileypul Dunno why you keep going but this wont lead anywhere so there really isn't point to continue that pointless whining :D




Eza

[axus]

Just a little point here for some people:
In the UK and some other places, LFS costs 2/3rd of a full game for an (almost) 2/3rd developped game. What many of you reply to Delerue is that previous line. Has it EVER come to your mind (those who reply the "game is cheaper" argument) that somewhere else in the world, with the exchange rates, the 2/3rd completed game might cost 100% or 75% of a full game? That's 3/3 or 3/4, not 2/3.
Here in Canada for example, right now as we speak, 24GBP is 49.56CAD. So let's agree for 50$. I see here brand new games on shelves for 60$.
Do the math: 50/60=83%.
LFS is in version 0.5 and S2 final (what you pay with 24GBP) will be 66% developped. Not 83%. So here in Canada, LFS IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

So stop saying the arguement it's not: IT IS, depending where you live.
How many racing simulations are as complete as LFS will be when S3 Final is released? I can't think of one. So you should be taking something like 66% of 150% IMO. :nod:

[TagForce]

I'm doing what the fans don't do: tell the problems, without fear or something like that. But you simply didn't answer any of my questions and thoughts. Strange...


Can you blame them? And as a matter of fact... Your question was "WTF happened with the DEVs?" and they answered that by simply posting in your useless topic... Well, not totally useless... It can be used as a bad example.


Look, I like the game, and think it has a lot of potential things, but I can't deny there's still a lot to be done. And things that had to be done a long time ago; that's the main problem. And you (DEVs) thought this is normal, and that you don't have to say anything about it to the consumers. I remember that before you realeased the alpha version, the progress reports were abounding. Strange...


There is a lot to be done, nobody denies that (and the Devs least of all, even in your topic). The progress reports are still there, as soon as there is something worth mentioning, they will put it up. Yes, I'd like a weekly update on the site as well, but since Scawen and Victor keep us pretty much updated here (even with normal house work when they're not working on LFS) what's the use for updating the website with useless information? That's why they have this forum, and you're welcome to use it.


I think you know the most important bugs and problems: sound (where's the multi-channel support? where's the gear sound? doppler? could the crash sounds be at least closer to reality? and so much more...); aero bugs; visual body damage bugs; tyres physics (please, it's impossible that you think a car loses grip at such low rates of speed.); force feedback (how about shaking the joystick-wheel as the engine rotation increases? and how about simulating bumps on the track? there are so many things yet to be done with force feedback...). Well, those are some of the things.


You know the only thing that makes my steering wheel in my real car shake is the road? Well... That and the missing leadweight on my rf rim at anything over 130km/h. You know what starts to move when I put the throttle down of all things? My front bumper. And only because the CAI is a little too snugly fit into the frame.


But if you keep repeating yourself like a broken record, this thread will be closed sooner or later.


NOOOoooooooo... Make it sticky! So everyone of us can find a place to vent some frustration when we had a bad day at work (like me now). Once this thread has outlived its usefulness that is.

Oh, and hihihi sounds like highhighhigh in english... I know you're dutch, but don't advertise it so much ;) hehehe (<- which translates to the dutch hihihi *gniffel, grinnik, grijns*)

[th84]

I think the cost thind depends on how you look at it! Over here new games are around $50, lfs for me was 42$ (s1+s2) but i didnt have to drive to a store, buy a online kit, and i dont have a cd to keep up with and pray it dont get scratched! Ive tried those other "sims" and, imo, there is no comparison! Lfs was worth every penny and then some! If people dont like the game, dont buy it, pretty simple huh?

Btw, if your having troubles driving the gti at 25mph, maybe lfs isnt the game for you anyway!!

[TagForce]

*money argument*

So stop saying the arguement it's not: IT IS, depending where you live.

But how many shelf games do you know that let you pay in 3 terms each over one year apart?
Next argument: Some games are far cheaper than other games, but make you pay to play online...

Let's quit the more or less expensive argument, and come to the conclusion that it is very competitively priced.

[axus]

You know the only thing that makes my steering wheel in my real car shake is the road? Well... That and the missing leadweight on my rf rim at anything over 130km/h. You know what starts to move when I put the throttle down of all things? My front bumper. And only because the CAI is a little too snugly fit into the frame.

Well that's not quite true - in a FWD car, there is torque steer - torque steering the front wheels - and this can be felt through the steering wheel... I it is very very noticable in the XF GTR, but of course, Deleure being an S1 racer cannot feel any of that. Some of the cars have frantic feedback...

[Nick_ll]

How many racing simulations are as complete as LFS will be when S3 Final is released? I can't think of one. So you should be taking something like 66% of 150% IMO. :nod:
That's like the old reply of "how many games do you enjoy as much as LFS??"
That's really a fanboyish arguement. What if LFS is not my way of life and I do not enjoy it more than any other game or sim? What if I don't spend more than 2 or 3 hours a week at most playing LFS (just the time for some races in the weekend)? You can't use that arguement. Here in Canada, LFS costs 83% of a full game for a 66% finished product: FACT.

And you can't ask me how many games will be as complete as LFS WILL BE when it reaches S3 because you don't know. There are titles like NetKar Pro and First Racing (maybe even GP Lengends if a miracle happens) that might get released in the meantime, and then you don't know what will happen with LFS. I personally have absolutely no faith at all in the sounds in LFS getting any improvement at all because I don't remember any reply of the devs saying there will be work on it. What I do remember tho is that a poll on RSC showed that like 50% of those who voted thought the sounds needed work, and when 50% of your userbase think something is wrong with your product, as a business you're supposed to consider the problem very seriously and move it at the top of your to-do list. Not respond to the fanboys demands. The fanboys will say what is released is awesome anyways, no matter what is done. You don't need to gain those customers they are already hooked and don't plan to move. What you want is to get more customers, so on that note, the language patches were a good move.
Then I will agree you can ignore the complaints of some (like Delerue) about the Force Feedback. That's just a matter of how things are simulated and there are no "effects" in LFS. Decision taken. BUT, the sounds need improvement ASAP and not in a future patch somewhere eventually. It is THE weakest point of LFS IMO and I know I'm not alone thinking this. Noone asks to scrap what's been done and go with samples, but dammit, add gearshift sounds, differential sounds, brake hiss, backfire and ambient sounds! It's important for the immersion feeling of LFS. When that's done there will never be other complaints or bad reviews about sounds.

[TagForce]

Well that's not quite true - in a FWD car, there is torque steer - torque steering the front wheels - and this can be felt through the steering wheel... I it is very very noticable in the XF GTR, but of course, Deleure being an S1 racer cannot feel any of that. Some of the cars have frantic feedback...

Torque steer? That's not a vibration, is it? I can feel feedback in my wheel, no problem... But none of it is actually a vibration like he seems to want.

[Delerue]

You are all completely wrong when you think I can't play it or say anything about it just because I don't have the license. I thought you had read what I said about it.

I'm only trying to read this thread, but it's difficult sometimes.

BTW, Victor answered some of my questions, but I think that the most important thing is that he gets my main point (or I hope so). :thumb:

[avih]

I don't really understand the discussion. No one forced anyone to pay and this is what you get for your money. The issues are known. It will probably get better but you don't have to believe that. Take it or leave it. As simple as that.

[Delerue]

Here in Canada, LFS costs 83% of a full game for a 66% finished product: FACT.

[..]

And you can't ask me how many games will be as complete as LFS WILL BE when it reaches S3 because you don't know. There are titles like NetKar Pro and First Racing (maybe even GP Lengends if a miracle happens) that might get released in the meantime, and then you don't know what will happen with LFS.

[...]

The fanboys will say what is released is awesome anyways, no matter what is done. You don't need to gain those customers they are already hooked and don't plan to move. What you want is to get more customers, so on that note, the language patches were a good move.

:thumb:

[KiDCoDEa]

I'm doing what the fans don't do: tell the problems, without fear or something like that. Thanks for you cooperation, and don't lose your mind, man. You have an image to be uphold. ;)
look u worthless piece of troll shit:
who da **** are u to think u know how the devs react to critics? you aint a critic. a critic supposedly understands (almost to an empirical level) the medium u are critical about. at the very most u represent an opinion. and crap one at that.
this info wont enter your narrow autistic mind, but i can inform you loads of the names in credits screen are from people that spend their time pinpointing to much deeper degree of what your limited knowledge allows, the "whats wrong", " whats incomplete" etc, trying to understand why it is wrong and constructively and resource-fully trying to construct a critic. and i can tell you its a headache many times. and its an invisible work. if u cant feel it in the game progression over the years then u should do a lobotomy.
lfs was born on critical fluid. lfs itself is a garage coding statement against stupid gaming corp establishments. its community deved also to a certain degree. feedbacked to the max. who da **** are u, little monkey shithead, to come here and insult everyone, including the ones that most care and do for this game.
i dont have fear to say ANYTHING. nor should you. you are an asshole and you havent been banned coz this game is different. i dont have mod rights but i hope they dont ban you. we allow assholes here. look at me. im spending my time speaking to one so that makes me one also. see? its great.
this game has for over 3 years been built inside the community and is a reflection of its community also.
this game has a to-do list just comin from me, that we could ALL except devs go to bahamas for 3 years and come back in 2010 and scawen would still be coding. now imagine other internal testers, own devs to-dos and community to-dos and bug/improvement reports.
**** off

[Honey]

please all calm down :) there's no reason for all of that, please!

[Moonclaw]

Right on Kid.

[Delerue]

please all calm down :) there's no reason for all of that, please!

He's taking the pain for the DEVs. I'm relaxed. ;)

[th84]

well said kid!!! hes just trying to start ****! just look at his lfs world stats!! hardly even played it!! stick to your gtr or whatever!

[tinyk]

Aww dun worry, be happy. :) :smileypul k back to my corner. :Kick_Can_


~*~*~*~tinyk~*~*~*~

[Vykos69]

Thx kid, you're the man to get my thoughts onto the screen ;) In those times I sometimes feel a bit offended by people calling me a blind fanboy etc. and then I have exactly those thoughts in my mind...

[Nick_ll]

Hmm..... I've waiting for my own personnal asshole reply......considering I've driven 47 500 km in LFS so far you can't really tell me to go back to my GTR (which I've only ever played the demo of).

[SniperX]

You are all completely wrong when you think I can't play it or say anything about it just because I don't have the license...
At least that explains why he "never" is online...

[TagForce]

Mild post there, Kid.

[Honey]

Thx kid, you're the man to get my thoughts onto the screen ;) In those times I sometimes feel a bit offended by people calling me a blind fanboy etc. and then I have exactly those thoughts in my mind...
and you are proud of it?

O_________O

...bah...
why can't people just talk? the thread started with wrong foot, but it does not mean that everyone must try to make it worse and worse, i personally dislike insults, please if you have to discuss do it, if you have to insult, please do it on another forum, i would like lfs forum to be the lfs forum, not a wild arena...please!

[DasBoeseC]

Mahlzeit.....

@Nick_II - Sometimes I feel like being an elephant because I seem to remember things that no one else 'wants' to remember.....reading your comments about the price of LFS made me think of a statement that the Devs postet before the release of S1:

The content of the S2 and S3 stages, and the times when our many planned features will be added, are left undecided now. So much depends on the S1 release, our full focus is on making it as soon and as good as possible, we remain flexible about the future after that. For that reason we ask people to consider the S1 release as a product in itself when they are deciding to pay for it.
To me this makes perfect sense as I enjoyed S1 more than I enjoyed any other Computer or Console game since Frogger or Pong (GREAT GAMES BTW).....and same goes for S2.....

I payed 18€ for S1 and had fun with it for about 1 year and 8 months (17.07.03 - 05.04.05) - I consider S1 to be a full product fun-wise!

I payed 18€ for S2 and have lots of fun with it - in fact I have GTR, GTL and rFactor on my HDD but they just do not cut it for me - I consider S2 to be a full product fun-wise!

To me LFS S1 and LFS S2 were a bargain.....

Well.....that's just me ;)

I personally have absolutely no faith at all in the sounds in LFS getting any improvement at all because I don't remember any reply of the devs saying there will be work on it.
Well.....that's just you :smileypul

CU, Sebastian

[Speed Soro]

Delerue is a shame for our brazilian LFS comunity.I had a extensive experience against him 2 or 3 months ago in a brazilian forum.He is not a LFS racer. He plays cracked version of S2, he has his own taste about certains things, and I swear we don't know why he insist to flame foruns against LFS.All the things you said here we have said to him many many times, about the efforts of the devs, the WIP stage, the compatible price, but he always came with the same arguments that the game is old, the same bugs and blablabla.It will be a great act just block his account, turn back his s1 payment and lock any post he try.Believe me, he doesnt worth the trouble...Sorry for him.

[DasBoeseC]

Mahlzeit.....

I think this thread is huge fun.....can't take his posts seriously has he did not even give a single valid argument ;)

I personally hugely enjoyed reading KiD's reaction (thanx for that dude ;) ) and most other posts....and Nick_II seems to be a guy you can talk with.....just the opposit of Delerue.....even though Delerue always tries to form a union with him :smileypul:scratchch

Seriously.....no one projects Delerue's attitude to the Brazilian community in here.....You should just not care about him.....because we don't care about him ;)

CU, Sebastian

PS: Of course this post only reflects the highly subjective and lightweight opinion of the author :D

[Nick_ll]

Yeah ok but if we consider that statement from the devs from before S1 (which I did remember, yes (but apparently am the only one appart from you)), it makes us consider both S1 and S2 as separately complete products. In this case, both products are cheaper than other games available on the market today, so if I take into account that statement from Scawen (he was the one who originally posted it), I have indeed to agree that S2 does cost less than other games.
However, if we take that into account, we must also state that S2, in many respects is not up to par with current industry quality standards. The sounds are one thing, but also the wheels of many cars don't look ok. It's mostly details, nothing that makes it unplayable as Victor said it's not like "omg this sucks" but it could easily be better.
Heck I'd model new wheels for all cars, with bolts and all, taking into account a max polycount budget they give me, texture them and GIVE THEM FOR FREE because I like LFS and I like modeling, BUT THE DEVS DON'T WANT MY HELP!! I'd also give them racecar seats models or stuff like that if they wanted, just like Kid made the skies, and I believe I've already told them I'm willing to help, but they don't want it, so I'm just left with complaining about such things until they get updated in a couple years.

Edit: oh and no I won't form any union with him. He's got valid points in terms that LFS can be improved and I indeed don't like fanboys, but I don't like them because they always say everything is marvelous and therefore are not constructive. Delerue isn't constructive either in his criticism, just the other way around. Fanboys say LFS is marvelous and everything is perfect, Delerue says LFS sucks and everything is crap; neither are constructive and will make LFS better by any means.
As I said I'm here for a while, I just want LFS to be best and I don't believe telling the devs what they do is perfect will make that happen.

[DasBoeseC]

Mahlzeit.....

...so I'm just left with complaining about such things...

Totally fine with me as long as the complaints are reasonable.....there is the difference.....

Your complaints - Mostly reasonable.....

Delerue complaints - NO COMMENT.....

Maybe it's not so much about the 'content' but about the 'form'.....His way of presenting his thought - even if he has some valid points - is just far off ;)

CU, Sebastian

PS: I think I should stop spamming this thread :Looking_a

PPS: I LUV THAT SMILEY :Looking_a:Looking_a:Looking_a:Looking_a:Looking_a :Looking_a

:D

Edit - @Nick_II - I can ensure you that some of the worst 'fanboys' of LFS are - at the same time - the most heated critics.....just as KiD said in his post.....far from telling the Dev that 'LFS is marvelous and everything is perfect' ;)

[snewham]

wow KiDCoDEa, making more friends are we?

[jmkz]

at least this time he's directing it in the right direction;)

[Woz]

That's like the old reply of "how many games do you enjoy as much as LFS??"
That's really a fanboyish arguement. What if LFS is not my way of life and I do not enjoy it more than any other game or sim? What if I don't spend more than 2 or 3 hours a week at most playing LFS (just the time for some races in the weekend)? You can't use that arguement. Here in Canada, LFS costs 83% of a full game for a 66% finished product: FACT.

And here in NZ LFS S1 + S2 cost 60% of a full game Fact. Also full games in NZ, UK etc cost far more than those in USA. This is how exchange rates and differences in living costs costs work. CD's in the USA for example are 50% the price of CD's in the UK. I could go on but wont. This is why console companies have tried to region lock everything for years to stop grey imports.

LFS is created in the UK and hence priced in that currency. This is much better than the rFactor farce where you look at the price on the site but when you come to pay the price can jump a huge amount depending on how you pay and in what currency. If they had to manage all this crap it would probably put the price up to cover the extra overheads.

Some countries lose out and others gain, this is how the world works.

And you can't ask me how many games will be as complete as LFS WILL BE when it reaches S3 because you don't know. There are titles like NetKar Pro and First Racing (maybe even GP Lengends if a miracle happens) that might get released in the meantime, and then you don't know what will happen with LFS. I personally have absolutely no faith at all in the sounds in LFS getting any improvement at all because I don't remember any reply of the devs saying there will be work on it. What I do remember tho is that a poll on RSC showed that like 50% of those who voted thought the sounds needed work, and when 50% of your userbase think something is wrong with your product, as a business you're supposed to consider the problem very seriously and move it at the top of your to-do list. Not respond to the fanboys demands. The fanboys will say what is released is awesome anyways, no matter what is done. You don't need to gain those customers they are already hooked and don't plan to move. What you want is to get more customers, so on that note, the language patches were a good move.
Then I will agree you can ignore the complaints of some (like Delerue) about the Force Feedback. That's just a matter of how things are simulated and there are no "effects" in LFS. Decision taken. BUT, the sounds need improvement ASAP and not in a future patch somewhere eventually. It is THE weakest point of LFS IMO and I know I'm not alone thinking this. Noone asks to scrap what's been done and go with samples, but dammit, add gearshift sounds, differential sounds, brake hiss, backfire and ambient sounds! It's important for the immersion feeling of LFS. When that's done there will never be other complaints or bad reviews about sounds.

There might have been a poll on RSC with that sort of percentages but what was the question. "Do you think the sound needs more work?". Most would agree it does. If the question was "Would you prefer a sound, graphics or physics update?" I would argue that you would not get the 50% say sound. Its very easy to quote stats out of context.

[_rod_]

Some countries lose out and others gain, this is how the world works.

well we know that happen, unfortunally for those who lives in a 3rd world country certanly paid a LOT more than most of the people, so i think that the fact that some people pay more than other shouldnt be ignored when we talk about it, as for some people, 12 quid is 4, 5 times in their money.

[Delerue]

oh and no I won't form any union with him. He's got valid points in terms that LFS can be improved and I indeed don't like fanboys, but I don't like them because they always say everything is marvelous and therefore are not constructive. Delerue isn't constructive either in his criticism, just the other way around. Fanboys say LFS is marvelous and everything is perfect, Delerue says LFS sucks and everything is crap; neither are constructive and will make LFS better by any means.

I never said that. It seems that you made the same mistake that almost every one here: you don't read what I say. See:

Look, I like the game, and think it has a lot of potential things, but I can't deny there's still a lot to be done. And things that had to be done a long time ago; that's the main problem. [source: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=38029#post38029]

We're at the same team, man. I agree with you in almost everything that you said. We like the game, but think that there's a lot of things to be done, and must of those things must be done as fast as possible. So, take it easy. ;)

[thisnameistaken]

You have no business even suggesting improvements for a game that you're enjoying but haven't paid for. You suck.

[_rod_]

dude dont even wast ur time on him, not worth.....

[Victor]

so bored ... let's do something, like closing this thread.

[Fonnybone]

so bored ... let's do something, like closing this thread.

Vic, can anyone else just reply by clicking quote like this ?
Or is it because of my special status ? :)

Sorry for going on in a closed thread, but i was just wondering.