Class Balancing

[Arrow.]

We need atleast 2 FWD, 2RWD and 2 Open wheeler rounds to explorer most of the car that LFS has to offer and in order to find the best teams.

For Example
Round 1: XFG/XRG
The xrg is .6 quicker which means everyone will chose xrg and if XFG does not run there will be only 1 FWD round.
We either..
- restrict the XRG
- XFG only
- Or UF1 with (possibly a different track)

What is your opinion on this?
and Should we inforce 1 car type only per round on all 8 rounds? :shrug:

[Kdovi]

XRG is maybe .6 faster, but only if you can control it in technical part and can be easily overtaked by XFG there.

[Storm_Cloud]

It also depends on how hard each car is on its tyres. I've never driven either car but if the quicker one heats the tyres more then it may balance itself over a race distance.

[danowat]

simple, one car

[sidi]

My opinion would be to have the 2 drivers from same team in a dif car.

[Jakg]

sidi has a good idea, but at the same time if you can't control the XRG's oversteer you'll be quicker in an XFG

[speedway]

Should we inforce 1 car type only per round on all 8 rounds? :shrug:

isnt that contradictory to:

...to explorer most of the car that LFS has to offer and in order to find the best teams.


also, if you limit the xrg to equal the xfg (in laptimes), i'm pretty sure everyone will be using xfg as its easier to drive + gives you an advantage over xrg due to its later braking points and slightly higher cornering speeds


so why dont just keep it simple and leave the car classes unchanged and cars unlimited (i suppose you dont wanna start a new discussion about limiting cars everytime before round 3,4,5,6)


btw: why do you think you need a certain amount rounds with fwd/ss/rwd to find the best teams.....this season already offers a huge variety of car classes

[CELTIC100]

I would go with Sidi's Idea and leave it for the teams to come up with thier best drivers for that rounds combo.

So +1 for this

[Gil07]

My opinion would be to have the 2 drivers from same team in a dif car.

That's a good idea.

[PaulC2K]

I cant drive RWD cars all that well (translated means i suck even more in RWD than FWD) so i'd rather there was no RWD cars in the series full stop, but IMO if you say the round is XFG/XRG then its the the drivers to make the decision of what to use. I can understand the arguement that it would basically lead to 1 car being used by everyone anyway, but thats how things are really.

I like the idea of 1 driver in one car and one in the other, however that kinda means 45 people are disadvantaged/handycapped which doesnt seem right either.

Personally i think the biggest problem is the fact that little thought is put into the combo, would it not make more sense to pick a decent track where the two cars are competitive together rather than conveniently picking one you want to drive at, im not arsed if you say its not been picked cos you happen to have the HLVC at the track in both cars, but surely there are better tracks where these 2 cars can race and let the driver be the most significant factor rather than the chosen car.
I said it a while back that there didnt seem to be any reasoning for some tracks, and XFG/XRG at Ky2 is a perfect example of a bad partnership.

IMO a track like KY2 (either dir) will always favour the XRG because it has a huge ass straight where the XRG is considerably faster and could easily beat the XFG round there even if they were 0.2sec faster IMO, its just easier to keep a XFG behind you in an XRG if you hold decent lines, and in the event that they do manage a move in a couple of corners time you've got a straight that lasts for about 30 seconds in which to line them up and wait to make the move at the end of the straight, and your back to square 1. How do you do it the other way around?? You cant defend against straight line speed unless the other person is n00b and passes early and you can get into the slipstream and pass them back under braking.

Im not fussed whether things change or stay like this, but i do think there wasnt any real thought into the tracks picked as i said ages ago when everyone was throwing out what they wanted to see. Some of them just feel like they were pulled out of a hat. The dont feel like they were picked intentionally to create some interesting battles between drivers in different cars, its like a track thats popular has been decided and then find a car combo and thats it. Its still going to provide great racing having everyone in the same car, but it effectively means half the car option round arent optional because theres a significantly faster car there and you'd be mad to pick the other/s.

Keep it as it is or change it, the racing will still be good, but there wont be the car battles that the glance at the schedule suggests there could be on the 5 races where there are multiple cars available. If that mix is important then they need to be balanced, if its not then leave it as it is, there was no attempt to balance things last year and it wasnt a concern.

[CELTIC100]

Paul I thought this Championship is to find the best all round team now matter what combo is thrown at us and your only talking about one round from many, the fact you personally do not like rear wheel drive has no bearing on the championship - choose another driver :shrug: I'm sure there's another driver from your team that loves to drive RW's in fact I would say your probably in a top 5 Team :thumb:

[PaulC2K]

Did you read past the first line??
I think you'll find that in the very first paragraph while saying that i didnt like the RWD cars and if i had it my way we'd never touch one, i ACTUALLY said that if thats the combo decided then its tough luck and you pick the car you want to pick, like it or lump it.

The same message was put into Paragraphs 5 and 6 (at least once) and i also talk about ALL the rounds too, not just one, because *I* took the time to check what i was commenting on and look at alternative tracks which could have been used just for this round which would certainly allow both cars to be used competitively without one being 0.6sec faster than the other (BL1, FE2 & WE1R were the 3 i was going to suggest but cut it from the post in the end because theres nothing wrong with running this race as it is, but its not an car vs car track, 1 car is forced upon you)

Take the time to read the last paragraph and let it sink in, then comment.

[anttt69]

For Example
Round 1: XFG/XRG
The xrg is .6 quicker which means everyone will chose xrg and if XFG does not run there will be only 1 FWD round.
We either..
- restrict the XRG
- XFG only
- Or UF1 with (possibly a different track)

What is your opinion on this?
and Should we inforce 1 car type only per round on all 8 rounds? :shrug:

I think the xfg/xrg is evens as it is. Yeah you can go slightly quicker in the XRG but only if you can drive it well. So as the fwd drive gti is the easyer car to drive but a little slower the team makes there own choice.

Either mixed or just one car to keep it even. I dont think the xrg deserves a weight penalty as it takes more skill to drive it quickly. As 4 the uf1, you have got to be joking?!

Mixed car types would be interesting where possible, however choose wisely & try to even them with weight or power restrictions. maybe xrg/xfg could be one & FZ5/RAC the other. (or a GT car mix) I dont think people would want many mixed car rounds.

[PaulC2K]

I'd still argue that regardless of the time they can do the XRG is still considerably faster in a straight line, and for that reason alone it makes it so simple to overtake the XFG, theres no skill or technique required and its undefendable unless you cheat by weaving round like a loser.

The XFG has to do something in order to get past the XRG, and the passing will only take place in the infield section of this track which assumes that the XFG is able to close the gap the XRG has created by being considerably faster on the boringly long straight, which is 90% of the oval, (it basically misses out 1 corner http://www.mercuryracingteam.com/tracks.php?venue=KY&config=KY1) and the HLVC times for these 2 cars are:
XFG: 56.960
XRG: 54.960
So basically the XRG has about 1.5sec gain (being generous to counter any loss/gain in accelerating and braking between the 2 cars) in a straight line section of the track over the XFG! If you can re-coup that in the rest of the track then as soon as the in-field is finished you've lost them all over again.

An XFG in a field of XRG's stands no chance, you'd be passed by 1 or 2 if they were close enough (ie 1.5sec behind you!!) but you'd never get past them by the end of the infield section, so you couldnt start that lap the same way you did the previous lap, meaning you have no chance of expecting to gain on them in future laps if what they make in the straight is more than you make in the infield.

In comparison to a track like Blackwood where in a race the XRG is still the faster car despite being slower on the hotlap (its gain down the straights and careful defensive driving helps it) you have a scrap between those 2 cars there, your not relying on someone to make a big enough mistake that you can gain a place from them, you want to be racing with them.
Its like holding the race at SO2 (sprint 1) and expecting the XRG's to be able to put up a fight against the XFG's, its an unfair fight and expecting anything different is just stupid. It doesnt make it a wrong decision to have a race there, it just makes it pointless to offer an uncompetitive car, and that was the whole point of this thread.

Personally i'd rather the multiple car rounds were balanced, whether thats done by a form of car balancing with weight & power restrictions or its done by using tracks that allow the cars to race fairly and evenly without arguements over unfair penalties (balancing) being put on a car.
It wouldnt bother me if it stayed as originally planned and everyone ran the XRG, though i'd prefer it XFG only or balanced. But :thumb: that its being explored as a posibilty to level it out and make it more interesting, more open minded than saying 'take it or leave it' on an issue which doesnt penalise anyone leaving it how it is but actually makes the racing more interesting.

[CELTIC100]

Its easily balanced by restricting air intake by a couple of percent :thumb:

And I believe any restrictions can be checked by using F12 so we even have scruteneering ;)

[dodo.ger]

i really think we dont need restrictions on any of the cars at the moment, they are pretty balanced. with xfg/xrg the track choice is the real question.

if you really need to do something then i would go with sidis idea too.

[PaulC2K]

As I said to Mr Jones and the Bagbag kid last night:
Why punish a teammate and make them drive the XRG?
Its just mean and spiteful :p

If you force 50/50 (or 2 of the 3 for the 3-car races like TBO) then sure it means mixed fields, but it means the XFG driver is guaranteed shit results. As much as i'd rather have this as an XFG only round or a more suitable track, I think it should be left as it is, forcing people to drive a crap car is stupid, you might as well do it with all rounds, FOX and UF1, FO8 and LX4.... force half the drivers to drive something they cannot be competitive with for the sake of satisfying the needs of a few people who want to force people into driving a slower car than the other half of the field, we might as well make it 2 class racing, have 1 car running GT1 the other GT2... its stupid.

You have 2 drivers, let them pick what car suits them from the list of allowed cars, why penalise one driver because the track chosen wasnt very clever and is so bias towards one car that 95% of the field is running it.
THAT is the problem, if anything should be looked at its the venue not balancing or forcing people into crap slower cars. You'd have to be one hell of a quick driver to get the XFG into a decent race finishing position (ie top 15) but if they can do that with the XFG then surely they'd kick lumps out of everyone else in XRG, so why cant they be in the XRG and have competitive racing? I thought that was one of the cool things about having 90 drivers racing as equals, penalising half of them so they're effectively half a sec slower per lap isnt what i'd call being an equal to the other half.

[sidi]

2 drivers 1 in each car it don't get any more equal than that :D it would be like 2 races in 1 woohoo.:smileypul

I'm not driving anyway but i just thought i would stop by and stir things up.:razz:

[PaulC2K]

of course it can, dont be a numpty :p
Everyone drives the car they're fastest in, thats the most equal way of doing it if this track is kept.
Forcing teams to put one driver in each car means 45 equals in XRG and 45 equals in XFG, and they'll overlap in somewhere along the way.

Its like having one driver do XRG and the other doing XRG+50kg penalty, your forcing one of the 2 drivers to be slower than they could be, how does that become fair, just because your screwing 44 other teams drivers doesnt make it fair.
Its backwards logic, penalising teams that can (and would) field 2 XRG's to fix the fact that this track is crap for these 2 cars.

[Arrow.]

The reason why last series multicar combos wasnt a problem was because we already had 2 Fwd, 2Rwd combos no matter what car everyone else chose.

here are some of my suggestions.
- remove XRG from round 1. make it XFG only
- Swap GTRs to Ky national reverse and XFG/XRG to Blackwood
- Or UF1 at any track

[danowat]

Please don't remove XRG :).

As for the other two, I have no preference.

[Arrow.]

I've always had excellent racing at BL1 XFG/XRG
looking at LFSworld these track have very close times between XFG and XRG
- Blackwood Reverse
- Fern Bay Club
- Aston Cadet Reverse
- Aston North
and South City but it only allows 30 cars

[anttt69]

Either Blackwood's :thumb:
However for Rev, you will need strict overtaking rules for the fast entrance into the chicane as two drivers into that tricky braking zone heading for the same apex = disaster

[RudiTurbo]

This 2 drivers in 2 different cars is a brilliant idea, it would make things sooo interesting :)

Cause then there will be diff car classes racing and You dont have to worry about being beaten by some XRG's because You know it's all even ;)
BRILLIANT ! ;)

[Kaw]

I support the idea. It's very equal and there cant be any nagging about it afterwards :)

[Arrow.]

Ok if we have 1 team driver in XFG and 1 in XRG
server 1 could end up with all XRG's and server 2 could be all XFG
that'll work wont it :scratchch

[RudiTurbo]

I think the qualy should be done based on both of the drivers times in that case. Cause yeah, 0.5 is quite a bit and it could be bad if all the XRG's end up in pool1, this 0.5 is a whole different thing within the race, with bad Tyre wear for XRG or smthn GTI's can end up winning even :P

[PaulC2K]

I really dont get the fascination of forcing people to drive a slower car round there. Whatever car you have the best chance of doing well should be the car you race, If they'll supposedly even themselves out over a race then whats the problem? people will pick what they prefer surely.

Qualifying has no reflection on tyre wear and doesnt show consistancy only the result of 1 lap. The XRG will always rule that race, so the XRG will easily dominate the top end of the qualifying meaning the few (forced) XFG's in the top race get to race with a ton of XRGs and the remaining XFGs that could have done well in the race where *supposedly* its balanced out but they cant cos they're in the lower server.

And as for doing it based on both drivers, wtf would we want to do that for?
Surely the best race should be had by the best 30 (or whatever) drivers not the best 15+ combined scores and hauling drivers with a not so hauling teammate get dragged down because some people thing forcing their teammate to drive the slower car is a genius idea??

Switch the tracks for the love of god, put it onto a track where its fair without telling people what to drive.
GTR's at Blackwood is a bit tight for 17 cars in MoE let alone 30 or whatever the new limit is, they would be better suited to a larger track like KY GP Long or an Aston track where they're slightly spread out but will still see plenty of action instead of needing to be lapping a backmarker every other corner.

[Arrow.]

Why dont we swap KY2r with GTRs and put XFG/XRG on Blackwood GP:shrug:
Its the most probly the best combo for the XFG/XRG to be even

XFG - 1:32.890 (http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=40110)
XRG - 1:32.750 (http://www.lfsworld.net/get_spr.php?file=8346)

If Kyoto ring Nation Reverse is to short for GTR we can use this
August 25th - Blackwood GP - XFG/XRG
September 8th - South City Town - MRT
September 22nd - Westhill International - XFR/UFR
October 6th - Aston North - TBO
October 20th - Kyoto Ring Long - GTR
November 3rd - Fern Bay Green Reverse - LRF
November 17th - Kyoto Ring National Reverse - F08
December 1st - Aston Grand Touring Reverse - FOX[/color]
(every fortnight on saturday)

I need your opinions asap. If not i will make the decisions myself, sorry but we need to get things sorted.

[N I K I]

I said long time ago that KY2R is not for those car, but no one listened to me.

TBH BL normal is boring and everyone knows it. I say let's do rev or some other track! Only other track i've found that this cars are equal is Aston Club Rev. Also they are almost same on aston north and north rev but we have tbo there :shrug: They are almost equal on SO Classic but we have one problem whit SO combo don't make another :p

I suggest to chose one of these (i'd like to see as club rev more)
first car is XFG then XRG
BL GP rev 1:34.06 - 1:33.96
AS club r 1:22.24 - 1:22.22

[Jakg]

I don't get it - the XRG is ONLY faster if you can control it - if you can't its slower.

Why are you now gonna force me to drive an XFG because some driver can't drive an XRG properly? This is Battle Of The Teams, to find the best drivers, and overall the best (subjective!) team - why it should it cater for someone who can't drive car y or isn't good in it?

[Arrow.]

huh?

We are trying to find a track where the 2 cars are more evenly matched

[dodo.ger]

ky2r with gtrs and xfg/xrg on bl1 sounds fine.

[anttt69]

BL1 rev for the xrg/xfg as standard config is over used. GTR's @ kyoto, good idea

[PaulC2K]

I said long time ago that KY2R is not for those car, but no one listened to me. You werent the only one, not sure if i said so in here or on our team forum that its a sucky combo.

I suggest to chose one of these (i'd like to see as club rev more)
first car is XFG then XRG
BL GP rev 1:34.06 - 1:33.96
AS club r 1:22.24 - 1:22.22
BL1R is cool, more of a fan of the Original, its like the F1 season not visiting Monaco, V8s not going to Bathurst, and Nascar not (boring the hell out of most race fans;)) having Daytona. BL1 is LFS through and through.
But BL1R sounds good, and while someone mentioned it'd need rules for the chicane at the end of the lap, i dunno about that, its racing you both need to use common sense, but whenever ive raced there with a large number of racers i've still rarely seen let alone been involved in such an incident. Common sense and race awareness is all thats needed.

I think Club is just a little too dull, theres only really 3 corners to the track and they're seperated by flat out stretches so there isnt much of a challenge. BL is just more demanding with a good mix of corners in there.

[Arrow.]

I suggested Bl1 right at the beginning :tilt:

looks like it will be bl1 or bl1r, putting up a pole soon
will the GTRs be fine for KY2R?

[N I K I]

Yea AS Club or rev is not really a challenge, but it's hell of fun place to race :)
If everyone wants BL GP rev so let it be. And i absolutely agree whit GTR's at Kyoto National Rev (we don't need two races on same track, and no race on Kyoto)

[Kdovi]

I don't get it - the XRG is ONLY faster if you can control it - if you can't its slower.

+1 for your post :thumb:

[PaulC2K]

I don't get it - the XRG is ONLY faster if you can control it - if you can't its slower.
+1 for your post :thumb:

Fact of the matter is that its got nothing to do with being able to drive it, its got to do with the fact that theres absolutely no balance between the 2 packs of cars, it might as well be XRG and UF1 :shrug:

If you dont want to be forced into driving a specific car, then stop bloody whining about the fact that people are suggesting that a more EQUAL alternative is found, rather than whining about the fact that the car you clearly seem to favour happens to have a rather unfair 0.6sec advantage over the alternative.
If the combo stayed as originally suggested then it WOULD have been a 99% XRG race, so much for whining about forcing people into one specific car.

Why cant people see past their own selfish wants and see something that actually benefits the racing?? Is it too much to ask to actually think about reasons why something is changed? :really:

[Arrow.]

Round 1 will now be Blackwood Reverse - XFG/XRG

GTR's Will now Race at Kyoto Ring National Reverse