Division Sorting

[Arrow.]

What is your opinion on how the Divisions should be sorted?

Division A
Team Will be automatically be put into div a by..
- Teams from last season
- Teams who were invited last season

I think the best way would be when entries close, ask the team what div they would like to be in :shrug: .then sort something out after that.

[Viper93]

Considering the caliber of teams that were put in last year I think it would work well like that. But I think you still should give a chance for some of the new teams to run in division A =) Maybe have the last slot or two up for an event race that the top two teams coming off the event have first dibs? Your league, not trying to push anyone into anything, just giving up ideas :thumbsup:

[Arrow.]

nice idea :smileypul

Im also would like a relegation and promotion system at the end of the season
Div A last 5 teams go down to Div B
Div B top 5 Go to Div A

[anttt69]

I think pre quali would be a good idea here. Something like the ESCC had.
You could also have promotion & relegation at the end of each round. Say last & first 2 teams. Only works if points system straddles both divs.

[[DUcK]]

thats a sweet idea ant.
i think we should do that pre quali thing too, like maybe have one driver per team, for eg. you might send bawbag to qualify, instead of being named bawbag hed be named 'mercury racing team' or send misko in for cyber named 'cyber racing'. server should be set private for this to work. so then instead of a million names and trying to figure who was the quickest, we can have the top half in div a and bottom in b. would be easier imo and itd be cool to represent your whole team in terms of what division u start it.
as for the promotion and relegation, what u said sounds great. would the point systems have to be exact same in div a and b for that to work or different?

[Greboth]

;463491']thats a sweet idea ant.
i think we should do that pre quali thing too, like maybe have one driver per team, for eg. you might send bawbag to qualify, instead of being named bawbag hed be named 'mercury racing team' or send misko in for cyber named 'cyber racing'. server should be set private for this to work. so then instead of a million names and trying to figure who was the quickest, we can have the top half in div a and bottom in b. would be easier imo and itd be cool to represent your whole team in terms of what division u start it.
as for the promotion and relegation, what u said sounds great. would the point systems have to be exact same in div a and b for that to work or different?

Good idea, if a combo is set and the divisions are set up by driver, or maybe drivers, setting fastest time decides the division they race in. I personally would say that 2 divisions that are kept seperate for the whole league would be best, then at the end the top and bottom X amount of the divisions change for season 3.

[joshdifabio]

I think that a pre-qualifying system would be best, and then have promotion/relegation at the end of the season.

Maybe hotlap qualification could be used, with 4 or 5 hotlap combos, all submitted by different drivers from each team? I think some rules regarding a minimum number of drivers to be used by each team throughout the season would be a good idea. Either that, or a maximum number of rounds in which each driver can participate. I don't really believe that a team's fastest 2 drivers are a very good measure of that team.

[r4ptor]

Yeh... I'm learning towards a pre-qualifying system myself.

[anttt69]

I think some rules regarding a minimum number of drivers to be used by each team throughout the season would be a good idea.

+1 I agree :thumb:. As it is a team event you should use all or most of your drivers not just the quick ones.

[speedway]

+1 I agree :thumb:. As it is a team event you should use all or most of your drivers not just the quick ones.

-1

last season it was sometimes hard for us to even get 2 drivers participating, since all others may had more important real life things to do

such a rule would make it even worse

[speedway]

+1 for hotlap qualification with 4-5 combos

again -1 for minimum amount of different drivers

[Greboth]

+1 I agree :thumb:. As it is a team event you should use all or most of your drivers not just the quick ones.

There is a problem with this, your team has four drivers while other teams have 10+ drivers available. Taking the lowest denominator then say no one driver can do more then one quater of the races. This would mean that in your team all your drivers would have to race while other teams could put forwards their four fastest. To me limiting the amount drivers can do isn't a good idea. In an individual league, or where a team enters only a couple of drivers those drivers represent the team and so have to race the season. BOTT though is a team league, it is a team effort and so the anyone from the team should be able to race as many races as they want.
so -1 for driver limitation.

[anttt69]

There is a problem with this, your team has four drivers while other teams have 10+ drivers available. Taking the lowest denominator then say no one driver can do more then one quater of the races. This would mean that in your team all your drivers would have to race while other teams could put forwards their four fastest. To me limiting the amount drivers can do isn't a good idea. In an individual league, or where a team enters only a couple of drivers those drivers represent the team and so have to race the season. BOTT though is a team league, it is a team effort and so the anyone from the team should be able to race as many races as they want.
so -1 for driver limitation.

I never said I wanted to limit drivers, infact quite the opposite. Teams with more should use more drivers & not limit themselves.

[Viper93]

I wouldn't want to see a hotlap prequali system. While it will give you the quickest drivers it will not automatically give you top quality racers. I could think of quiet a few racers that could put in some wicked hotlaps but suck at actually racing.

I think an event would have to be held before the begining of the season to choose the teams that would be in division A or who will be stuck in B for the season =)

Maybe having as much as 3 races with quali held on different configs to minimize actual practice time before the event which IMO will give you the best drivers out of the new teams coming in. Anyone can set near WR times with plenty of practice, just check the AS national GTR races, it takes a real driver to win across multiple tracks in one day. At least I feel that way. Keep it to two man teams, like BOTT is now, and let the track decide.

[PaulC2K]

Qualification makes more sense than just having last years teams in Div1 and the new guys in Div2 as Cyber and SK are basically the key reasons Mercury are doing this season, if we just had the same as last year it'd be dull and just doesnt make sense to keep those 2 teams out of Div1, so yeah i definately agree with something better than the originally proposed idea.

I also agree it'd be nice to see some sort of minimum drivers taking part rather than always sending your fastest 2 to every round, I tried to push for this last time round because as a team series it made more sense to me that it involved/embraced the whole team rather than just 3-4 of its drivers, however that was decided against, we still fielded 13 different drivers, very rarely were they our fastest for the combo, myself and viper just pestered people who were available and encouraged them to enter into the spirit of things. It became more about fielding as many different drivers as it was about getting the best results. There was an element of trying to plan who to use and when, so people like Jonesy were only used once for the GTR round, i did the opener because it was the only one i was pretty good at, but for the most part it was a case of finding someone that hadnt raced and stick em in whatever combo was coming up.
Only thing is theres teams with <8 drivers and teams with >14 and saying X have to compete seems quite tricky i guess.
We have 16 'drivers' at Mercury, one is in Dubai and hasnt played LFS for about 2 years now, one has knackered peds, about 4 that occasionally 'tard' in our server if a few of us are online, and a few that dont race in comps. I count about 8 of our drivers who would race, and of them i dunno how many are able to... and thats from 16 drivers, so i have sympathy/understanding for teams of smaller numbers being expected to field numbers they'd struggle to manage.

[DeadWolfBones]

Agreed with most of Paul's points. Qualification makes the most sense and would provide the best competition, and having a large spread of drivers per team will help determine overall team strength. :thumbsup:

[Jakg]

IMO we do the first race with last years teams in Div. 1 and new 'uns in Div. 2 and move the top .... 7 up an down the divisions

[[DUcK]]

Or maybe sort divisions by who uses brake help??
jakg i think ud be in a class of ur own there :D


p.s ur never gonna live that down buddy ;)

[Arrow.]

;464143']Or maybe sort divisions by who uses brake help??
jakg i think ud be in a class of ur own there :D


p.s ur never gonna live that down buddy ;)

lol, GO TO SCHOOL :tilt:

I think the best way to do it is to put all the teams from last season and we were invited last season into Div A

Then get all the team so state what division they wish to be in :scratchch

[PaulC2K]

Shame on anyone that uses Brake help! {cough} :shy:

[PaulC2K]

IMO we do the first race with last years teams in Div. 1 and new 'uns in Div. 2 and move the top .... 7 up an down the divisions

Wouldnt that basically be doing the same thing as a qualification round? difference being that you now have the difficult decision of figuring out who gets what points.
Additional to that, considering this season we will probably start with 32 teams, and last time round i think 7 teams finished, that would mean you'd need a 50 slot server for Division 2 and the bottom 7 of division 1 would be relegated to Division 2.... however the bottom 7 also happen to be the top 7 as theres only... yep, you guessed - seven :razz:

Suffice to say that just might not work too well this time round ;)


f**k it, just ask the teams to pop along the week before the series starts, and have say 3x 20min qualifiers with different combos and combine the teams time and rank them by that. You cant get a fair balance with 1 track & car combo, and with 20min at each track theres enough time to get at least one reasonable lap in and it also would mean maybe its isnt too long (1hr 10min at most). If the series is spread over 2 servers, then maybe it'd be ideal to split the qual too, 16 cars per server, allocate teams to server A or B so there isnt uneven numbers etc.

Alternatively, 2x 30min quals, 32 drivers per server, 2 servers.
Teams have one driver in server A and one in server B, 4 different combos in total, bit more time to get that fast lap in (if people think 20min isnt enough), bit more of a mix of cars used.
It'll be pretty compact in there, but ultimately when round 1 comes along theres going to be 32 drivers on the track anyway, so get used to it!

maybe allow teams to swap drivers when changing qual combo, afterall it wouldnt be 1 driver doing all rounds, it'd be the fastest driver (2) at that combo typically.

[Jakg]

Wouldnt that basically be doing the same thing as a qualification round? difference being that you now have the difficult decision of figuring out who gets what points.
Because i do not have time to do another round

[Jakg]

;464143']Or maybe sort divisions by who uses brake help??
jakg i think ud be in a class of ur own there :D


p.s ur never gonna live that down buddy ;)Oh right! I'm so special i get my own class! Woo!

Anyway, to the shower and to do some non-brake help practice

[anttt69]

I think a another vote is in order here. If Fusion draw up 3 or 4 possible methods of sorting the divisions then each team gets a vote. Simple.

[Jonesy_]

;464143']Or maybe sort divisions by who uses brake help??
jakg i think ud be in a class of ur own there :D


p.s ur never gonna live that down buddy ;)

Can Button Clutchers have their own division too? :smileypul

[[DUcK]]

That's different jonez :D besides i only use it on xfg... everything else is no no :D

[Jonesy_]

;464453']That's different jonez :D besides i only use it on xfg... everything else is no no :D

You drive something else too? :really:

god damn I´m bored.
3h down 15 to go still, working sucks.

Oh and duck, why did the chicken cross da road? :shrug:

Sry for this nonsense spamming too.

[[DUcK]]

LOL :D

why did it jonez?

[jasonmatthews]

Well the SR team are going to use all of our drivers. Not just the quick ones. We have about 4 really fast drivers but as this is a team event we thought it would be best to use the whole team. If it's a competition to find which team has the two best drivers then by all means we can do it that way...:shrug:

[bozo]

I like the idea of 1 team going up/down a division after each race. It would be a good incentive for div b teams, and provide a touch of pressure at the rear of the div 1 pack. It would also ensure that the teams are more evenly matched over the course of the season. Closer racing etc.

I'm also all for a quali system for determining the division that each team goes into. If teams nominate which division they would like to go into, I suspect that most will be over-optimistic. A good quali system will ensure teams are matched more evenly.

[anttt69]

;463491']thats a sweet idea ant......

as for the promotion and relegation, what u said sounds great. would the point systems have to be exact same in div a and b for that to work or different?

For it to work the points system must straddle all divisions so that any promoted or relegated teams do not carry unfair points across into other divisions. e.g.(10 car divs) this would work:
Div 1
1st - 30
2nd - 28
3rd - 26
4th - 24
5th - 23
6th - 22
7th - 20
8th - 19
9th - 18
10th - 17
Div 2
1st - 16
2nd - 14
3rd - 12
4th - 10
5th - 9
6th - 8
7th - 7
etc

The points system carries on through both divisions. It also means that an overall position list can be created.

[Kaw]

I dont understand why we need different point system? :shrug:

[joshdifabio]

For it to work the points system must straddle all divisions so that any promoted or relegated teams do not carry unfair points across into other divisions. e.g. this would work:
Div 1
1st - 30
2nd - 28
3rd - 26
4th - 24
5th - 23
6th - 22
7th - 20
8th - 19
9th - 18
10th - 17
Div 2
1st - 16
2nd - 14
3rd - 12
4th - 10
5th - 9
6th - 8
7th - 7

The points system carries on through both divisions. It also means that an overall position list can be created.

I really think that the only fair way to handle promotion and relegation is at the end of the season, EPS style. One points distribution stradling two divisions is not a good idea imo, especially if it awards more points for coming 7th in a div 2 race than it does for coming 11/32 in div 1, that's just ridiculous.

Having promotion/relegation after every round would be unfair on teams who are bad at the early cars/combos. For example, if the first race is XFG, Team A might excel in this car, but another team, Team B, may not be so good in the FWDs and get relegated after round 1. The second round could use the GTRs. Let's say that Team B are great in the GTRs, and would be a match for any of the teams in Div 1, but because they aren't good in the XFG/XRG they will be in Div 2 for that race, while Team A who are poor in the GTRs get to race in Div 1, although over the two rounds they may have been worse than Team B.

I'm not sure if I've explained this well, but overall I think that the fairest way to handle promotion and relegation is at the end of the season.

[anttt69]

One points distribution stradling two divisions is not a good idea imo, especially if it awards more points for coming 7th in a div 2 race than it does for coming 11/32 in div 1, that's just ridiculous.

Having promotion/relegation after every round would be unfair on teams who are bad at the early cars/combos.

It was only an example, i'm hardly gonna write out points/positions list of 64 cars am I?
IMO is not unfair at all if a team has a weak combo then they need to practice it, everyone is in the same boat. Like bozo said it gives incentive to the Div 1 backmarkers to never give up & likewise a great scrap in Div 2 to get promoted.
This can only make the championship more exciting.
We seem to have more support for the idea than against.

[joshdifabio]

It was only an example, i'm hardly gonna write out points/positions list of 64 cars am I?
IMO is not unfair at all if a team has a weak combo then they need to practice it, everyone is in the same boat. Like bozo said it gives incentive to the Div 1 backmarkers to never give up & likewise a great scrap in Div 2 to get promoted.
This can only make the championship more exciting.
We seem to have more support for the idea than against.

Well I thought it might be, but you did say "this would work". It's still a bad example if you ask me.

[Neokiller]

+1 for pre-qual system :shrug:

[MyBoss]

+1 for pre-qual system

[Arni Arnason]

Pre-qual is propably the best system, most simple to manage i guess. At least it would be needed for the first race.

[Storm_Cloud]

+1 for pre-qualifying on multiple combos

[Dru]

I know that i'm not involved in this league at all, but i know that the ESL - EAL version the original divisions are seperated by a qualification of combined times over 2 different tracks and combos... for instance FO8 at Aston Historic and LX6 in SO Long...

From that you get your divisions for the first 3 rounds. Its a liner scoring system so that division 2 scores less than 1 etc etc.

At the end of the first 3 rounds the 3 lowest scoring competitors are replaced with the top 3 from division As you are looking for grids of 16 teams, perhaps you could promote/relegate the top/bottom 4 teams at a time?

Just a thought :)

[Jos Belgium]

Why don't all possible drivers (or drivers entering the event) from each team upload a hotlap, get all the team's results together, sum up the times, divide it by the number of drivers per team, and sort the divisions from there?
Like that, it is a team's qualifying event, perfect for a team event. Right?

[germanpio]

Why don't all possible drivers (or drivers entering the event) from each team upload a hotlap, get all the team's results together, sum up the times, divide it by the number of drivers per team, and sort the divisions from there?
Like that, it is a team's qualifying event, perfect for a team event. Right?


You can't expect that from the bigger teams, because a lot of them have a family and/or are inactive or atleast too lazy to plug in a wheel :razz:

[Jos Belgium]

You can't expect that from the bigger teams, because a lot of them have a family and/or are inactive or atleast too lazy to plug in a wheel :razz:

That's why I said "or drivers entering the event"...

[Greboth]

+1 for pre qualifying system with the promotion/relegation at the end of the season.

[Cawwa]

Like in ESCC prequalifying system with the tracker but with 4 combos and 4 different drivers from each team. Sum the times up and do the ranking. Pretty easy uh? ... :D

After every three races fix the divisions like suggested; 4 lowest down, 4 highest up.

[danowat]

Like in ESCC prequalifying system with the tracker but with 4 combos and 4 different drivers from each team. Sum the times up and do the ranking. Pretty easy uh? ... :D

After every three races fix the divisions like suggested; 4 lowest down, 4 highest up.

Yup, something similar to the ESL ESCC pre-qual system would work :D

[RudiTurbo]

Pre-qualy ftw ! And nothing else is needed ;)

[Alles]

Pre-qualy ftw ! And nothing else is needed ;)

yep i agree, qualis for divisions. time and place and rumble

[dodo.ger]

is that really a question? pre-qualy with a tracker would be nicest. :)

[tomylee]

I think there shouldn't be a preselection of the divisions. Rather the qaulification of each round should decide who is going to race in which devision. Like this each race will be much closer.

[Cawwa]

I think there shouldn't be a preselection of the divisions. Rather the qaulification of each round should decide who is going to race in which devision. Like this each race will be much closer.

The problem to have prequal of each round you have to let the drivers who actually are going to drive that round. That might be a problem if there's going to be a driver change in the last minute. It's a matter of fact that some teams might use that and let the fastest drivers always make the qualify whether they are going to drive or not.
Better to have a real prequal worthy a team, 4 combos with 4 different drivers with help of the tracker. The sum of the time for each team make a good ranking.

[speedway]

The problem to have prequal of each round you have to let the drivers who actually are going to drive that round.

i understood tomylee's post as: do the division sorting in the break between the qualification and the race, cases in which a driver can do the qualy but suddenly not the race a few minutes afterwards should be really rare

imo this would probably provide closer racing in each devision....but can you imagine the mess this would bring up? + the breaks between qual and race already seemed endless last season

[Bawbag]

Although I agree with the fact that some teams might just use 1 fast driver to qualify them and change at the last minuit to someone who wouldn't of made Div A. (Providing the faster driver got into A) I think the prequal system before each race sounds the most suitable, as it's a very mixed event, As Josh pointed out above, demoting one team because they are slow in 1 car for a race in which they are fast will have the opposite effect on the idea.

Maybe if there is some sort of driver change that new driver has to let some laps on the track to determin there division, doesn't take that long and if they don't set a time then they go to Div B. :)

[MyBoss]

One thing in my mind.

Lets say a team is fast enough to qualify in the fastest div for each race. But the team isn't fast enough to score points. Would that mean that teams that jump up and down in the divisions, and teams that aren't fast enough to qualify for Div 1 but still gets points in Div 2 will lead over that team in the overall championship?

Or is there points for every position?

[Cawwa]

One thing in my mind.

Lets say a team is fast enough to qualify in the fastest div for each race. But the team isn't fast enough to score points. Would that mean that teams that jump up and down in the divisions, and teams that aren't fast enough to qualify for Div 1 but still gets points in Div 2 will lead over that team in the overall championship?

Or is there points for every position?

I think all places get points in both divisions. Not equal though, more like in OLFSL, the less points in the less divisions.

Imo there's a mess to qualy before each event or even worse to let the qualy just before the race. I see caos around the corner fairly easy ... :)

A team have several drivers, all prolly faster in one car then the others. I don't think changing combos will do that much difference to justify a division change.

Don't make it to complicated. It's not unfair to look at the divisions after the first three races or so.

[baSh0r]

pre qualy ftw

[tomylee]

I think a system like we had in the last DTM season makes quite sense.
After the race it would be like we have just one big division. Everybody gets points (first pos the most and after each driver less, maybe with a gap between the divisions).
For the qualifying: Let's say the race starts at 20 UTC. All 3 servers would be open for the qualification at 18:30 for 1h. During that hour everybody can pop in to do the qualification.At 19:30 the qual will be done and the admins have time to set the starting grid which will be postet in the Forum.

We did it like this in the DTM and it worked good.

It might become quite interesting when one of the team driver is in division 1 and the other in division 2 for a race (pointwise).

[Storm_Cloud]

That's sounds like a good way, but possibly tricky to organise?

[MyBoss]

Random question:
Is there a requirement that BOTH of the teams drivers race in the same division?

[[DUcK]]

good question, im not sure. ill try get on to arrow once he has finished racing :)

[anttt69]

Random question:
Is there a requirement that BOTH of the teams drivers race in the same division?

I thought only one car would be racing per team. i.e. with two drivers sharing the team car?
or is it gona be two cars entered per team?

[jamesrowe]

If we are to use the quali system, then to make it more interesting at least choose a different combo to Rnd 1.

Perhaps suggestions? Something specialist or maybe all rounder?

FOX KYNAT?
TBO SO Sprint 2?

Think :D

[[DUcK]]

hrmm yah, good idea. :D
still need a xfg/xrg round somewhere though, that race rox ;)

[joshdifabio]

;470958']hrmm yah, good idea. :D
still need a xfg/xrg round somewhere though, that race rox ;)

I think his idea is to use different prequal combos to the combo used in round 1. So he's not suggesting a change to the schedule, just different combos for prequal.

[germanpio]

PreQual combos shouldn't be the same configuration as during the season. All long tracks are a good choice :shy:

[Jakg]

I'm against this simply because it's yet ANOTHER combo to learn - what would be wrong with using the combo for Round 1?

[jamesrowe]

I'm against this simply because it's yet ANOTHER combo to learn - what would be wrong with using the combo for Round 1?

Well surely learning another combo would seperate the men from the boys aye Jack :D

[Jakg]

I don't understand how learning another combo is neccesary - the better we know the track, the better the racing, so surely the best combo would be the one for Round 1.

Oh, and James, what are you entering in? If it's an XFG i think it's a little rich to lecture me on "men from the boys" :P

[jamesrowe]

I don't understand how learning another combo is neccesary - the better we know the track, the better the racing, so surely the best combo would be the one for Round 1.

Oh, and James, what are you entering in? If it's an XFG i think it's a little rich to lecture me on "men from the boys" :P

Well to be honest, the round 1 combo is a little boring. If quali events are to be held, it would be more interesting to have a different combo. Teams have to practice for quali event and then 2/3/4 weeks later another round to start the series.

If you can't do that Jack then go back to school and learn...boy :p :D :razz:

[Jakg]

Just because in your opinion a combo is boring doesn't mean it shouldn't be used as a quali combo - if your team can't drive a combo why should we have to learn a new one? :P

Fusion picked this combo as the first one - why not use it to gauge speed?

[jamesrowe]

Just because in your opinion a combo is boring doesn't mean it shouldn't be used as a quali combo - if your team can't drive a combo why should we have to learn a new one? :P

Fusion picked this combo as the first one - why not use it to gauge speed?
I don't like the combo, does not mean others in DR don't :p

[PaulC2K]

Why cant things just be kept simple and uncomplicated?

4 combos, 2 done on server A, 2 done on server B, 20min qualifying session, 10min break.
Teams send a single driver into each of the 4 sessions, total each teams time up, and thats your divisions divided by the results of 4 combos, not 1.
No 'that combo doesnt suit our team' nonsense, no favouritism, no disadvantages, wide variation of combos to test teams in different departments not just 1, and its all over and done with in 50min, 60 if you want to round it off.


Eitherway, im just hoping that Fusion come up with a decision, discussing the best way of organising factors of a series is one thing (its good if opinions are being listerned to), but really a decision should be made and then only changed if it really isnt suitable. IMO they should listern to ideas and then make a decision, not let it go on forever, afterall this is dividing half the teams, its not rocket science and its not even an all that important aspect of the season, no teams season hangs in the balance of this decision it just needs a solution and thats that sorted.

[jamesrowe]

Why cant things just be kept simple and uncomplicated?

4 combos, 2 done on server A, 2 done on server B, 20min qualifying session, 10min break.
Teams send a single driver into each of the 4 sessions, total each teams time up, and thats your divisions divided by the results of 4 combos, not 1.
No 'that combo doesnt suit our team' nonsense, no favouritism, no disadvantages, wide variation of combos to test teams in different departments not just 1, and its all over and done with in 50min, 60 if you want to round it off.
Stop coming up with good ideas. You are making us all look bad! :D

Nice idea Paul, once again. Well done :razz:

[Rooble]

I don't understand how learning another combo is neccesary - the better we know the track, the better the racing, so surely the best combo would be the one for Round 1.

Oh, and James, what are you entering in? If it's an XFG i think it's a little rich to lecture me on "men from the boys" :P

Most drivers in this league will have probably raced all if not most of the combos, so 'learning' a combo doesn't really come into it. If you're only competitive after 400 laps then perhaps that's something you should look into.


As for pre-qual I think its the only suitable idea, it wouldn't be fair just to split teams into divisions based on prior race results and such.

[Viper93]

Why cant things just be kept simple and uncomplicated?

4 combos, 2 done on server A, 2 done on server B, 20min qualifying session, 10min break.
Teams send a single driver into each of the 4 sessions, total each teams time up, and thats your divisions divided by the results of 4 combos, not 1.
No 'that combo doesnt suit our team' nonsense, no favouritism, no disadvantages, wide variation of combos to test teams in different departments not just 1, and its all over and done with in 50min, 60 if you want to round it off.




:nod::thumbsup: This is what I was trying to say from the get go, basically =)

Most drivers in this league will have probably raced all if not most of the combos, so 'learning' a combo doesn't really come into it. If you're only competitive after 400 laps then perhaps that's something you should look into.


I agree, if your only competitive after many laps on the track you need to rethink your learning curves =) I know I have not raced 1/10th of the combo's available in LFS, but thats what will separate a good driver from a great driver IMO.

[germanpio]

4 combos, 2 done on server A, 2 done on server B, 20min qualifying session, 10min break.
Teams send a single driver into each of the 4 sessions, total each teams time up, and thats your divisions divided by the results of 4 combos, not 1.
No 'that combo doesnt suit our team' nonsense, no favouritism, no disadvantages, wide variation of combos to test teams in different departments not just 1, and its all over and done with in 50min, 60 if you want to round it off.

Good for all :thumb:

[Arrow.]

Why cant things just be kept simple and uncomplicated?

4 combos, 2 done on server A, 2 done on server B, 20min qualifying session, 10min break.
Teams send a single driver into each of the 4 sessions, total each teams time up, and thats your divisions divided by the results of 4 combos, not 1.


I was thinking of something similar to that but not sure how it could work with 3 divisions 48 teams.

I Was thinking...

LFS tracker running on 3 servers, each with different combo
Fwd, Rwd and open wheeler combos
The Servers will run for 2 - 4 weeks.
All team drivers can drive on the servers and put in their best lap but only the fastest lap from each team driver will will be count from the 3 servers
add all the 3 fastest laps together.
This determines divisions

example:
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4924/lfstrackereb5.jpg
1st place - SK
2nd place - Cyber
3rd place - 1ST
4th place - #low

[Cawwa]

The idea is pretty good and I suppose it can easily be done.

Since this is a team event it would be good idea to count the time from three (or four) drivers. I mean the idea is to use more then one driver from each team uh?

[jamesrowe]

I think just counting the time for the fastest driver at each combo and adding up is best.

[anttt69]

All team drivers can drive on the servers and put in their best lap but only the fastest lap from each team driver will will be count from the 3 servers
add all the 3 fastest laps together.
This determines divisions


Like the idea but this may as well be hotlap quali. Some drivers will be able to put one fast lap in but may not be able to keep lapping at that pace. I suggest 3/5 laps quali distance instead of just one hotlap.

p.s- does tracker monitor licence name or racername?

[Jonesy_]

Are we there yet?

[Bawbag]

The tracker is easily done and with the correct setup it is displayed on the tracker website without any work.

I suggested to Arrow that we should use a tracker system for each race, it will split up the divisions easily and say team A are good at GTI but no GTRS it will mean they actually race in the correct division, instead of being a mobile chicane driving on their own.

ESCC used this method at the beginning of the current season and it worked easily, the only problem is a team qualifying with differnt drivers they use in the race, if a team has 1 or 2 backup drivers maybe they should drive on the tracker to to ensure that whoever drives the team gets put in the correct devision. :thumb:

[baSh0r]

I was thinking of something similar to that but not sure how it could work with 3 divisions 48 teams.

I Was thinking...

LFS tracker running on 3 servers, each with different combo
Fwd, Rwd and open wheeler combos
The Servers will run for 2 - 4 weeks.
All team drivers can drive on the servers and put in their best lap but only the fastest lap from each team driver will will be count from the 3 servers
add all the 3 fastest laps together.
This determines divisions

example:
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4924/lfstrackereb5.jpg
1st place - SK
2nd place - Cyber
3rd place - 1ST
4th place - #low

Great Idea.

[bozo]

I agree with the simplicity of the best time for each team across 3 servers approach. It might not be ideal where a team has a large variance in driver capability, but then with a larger team even averaging the top 3 drivers from each team would not adequately reflect the capabilities of the drivers in a particular event.

However, if this approach is adopted, I am still in favour of regular movement of teams between the divisions to reflect actual race performance. As I mentioned previously, this will help to add interest to those teams who are towards the rear, or near the top, of each division. It'll provide a very real target to aim for, or to avoid if you're towards the rear of a race field. It will also ensure closer racing over the season as the division become more evenly balanced.

[PaulC2K]

I actually had a chat with Arrow the other day, and suggested something very similar to what Bagbag was saying (hadnt realised he'd pretty much posted this same idea at that time) and IMO it might make things a lot easier for now and in future, and should provide guaranteed close racing.

Idea:
If you scrap divisions, and the whole promotion & relegation idea, and put all 48 teams into 1 big pot and then if this 'tracker' thing is so simple to implement then the X days before the race is to start have a server open to allow every team to submit their laps, it'd be an open qualifying server.
From there, you'd take the top 30 drivers and put them in server A. The next 30 drivers would go in server B, and the final 30 into server C (still only the fastest 2 from each team, just to be clear).

In S-A, points are awarded 90, 89, 88.... 62, 61
In S-B, points are awarded 60, 59, 58.... 32, 31
In S-C, points are awarded 30, 29, 28.... 2, 1

This means that in each server you should have the guarantee that your racing with 30 drivers of pretty much the same ability as each other. Being last in S-A would give you 1pt more than coming first in S-B, meaning the 30th placed driver gets 1 point more than the 31st placed.


Reasons why:
If the series ran in this manner there would be rounds where you had the potential to really be rewarded for a good result at a round, you wouldnt be limited to the points that division offers, you would be entitled to race with those you were equal to, not who your forced to race with in that division.

Another bonus is for the sake of future teams. Anyone that doesnt compete in any 'division qualifying stage' doesnt get the quick step up to a higher division, in future they'd have no other choice but to start at the bottom step of the ladder (Division 3, maybe 4!) and work their way up from that.
While that might not bother those already taking part, there are teams who arent involved in this season, and any decent team that could be a match for mid-division or higher level or racing would have no choice but to 'rough it' at the bottom season after season until they're in with their 'equals'. This method makes everyone 'equals' when qualifying opens, if your quick then you race with the quick guys, if you suck then hey, you get to race with me when i do the odd round!!
Is expecting some of the quicker teams to start from the bottom going to be encouraging for their future entry or is it going to be looked at as a reason not to compete? Afterall, if theres 2 seasons per year, who wants to complete in a season for 1+ year to get to those your competitive with?
Geniune question, of the Division 1 capable team guys taking part this season be willing to take part in the series if we were say 1yr on and an established series of divisions existed and it wouldnt be till 12 months time that you had some meaningful opposition to compete with?
IMO any quick team that isnt in now wouldnt look too fondly upon this measure, and as day to day leader of Mercury i dont think i'd be all that fussed about taking part, we'd want to race with equal ability drivers/teams. So does divisions make for a good series? Anyone still even reading this??

Reasons why not?
Thats the benefits IMO, but every system will have its problems, and the only 2 i can think of is one regarding driver swaps, particularly those of 'convenience'. Do you put the replacement driver in the place THEY qualified, or do you allow this possible abuse of Driver A doing the qual with no intention of racing while Driver B steps in to do the race in their spot.
The other 'problem' is that maybe some of the lower teams may feel that they dont have something to challenge for, i guess its always nice to win something and if its winning Division 2 or 3 then its a step, maybe '3rd in Div2' is considered more of an acheivement than '15th in BOTT' even if its actually the same thing.


Those are issues which people may not like to see in the series, but IMO i doubt there will be many occasions where teams abuse the last minute driver swap (intended for emergencies), particularly as usually the fastest guy will needed to race (thats where the points are won) and the ability to compete against drivers of your own ability and earn points on a complete scale not just on those in your division, particularly in future divisions if a quick team decided to take part.


Right, thats enough for me, when i started this post they were just reporting on the news that the Titanic had just sunk ;)

[Storm_Cloud]

I would be in favour of a 10 minute qualifying session before each event. Each of the drivers who will be in the race gets a couple of qualifying laps. At the end of the 10 min session the fastest 32 get onto server 1 etc. This would ensure that the fastest drivers in each combo drive together and teams aren't in artificially high divisions because they have a couple of quick guys who may not even race.

To save time the qualifying results could be used from this session to form the 3 grids.

It would also allow bigger grids as you can invite the reserves onto server 3 if there are no shows, and amongst 96 drivers there are bound to be.

Then award points for 1st to 96th, with last on server 1 finishing just ahead of first on server 2, perhaps with small bonuses for podiums on each server.

EDIT: Ah, I missed that mammoth post from Paul above proposing pretty much the same thing. Doing open qualifying on the day rather than on tracker would solve the problem with replacement drivers as drivers that can qualify can certainly race 10 minutes later.

[PaulC2K]

oh, that was another Positive for qualifying before the race day, scrap that 25+ minute qualifying session and get some proper racing done instead!! No need to prance about for 25min deciding who goes where as the tracking would have decided that.

I can also see the benefit of the above suggestion though, however that would require 3 servers running a tracker, and the results from the 3 being merged i guess, dunno if thats possible to do automatically but doing it manually means at least 1 person sitting around figuring it out (ie Arrow at 6am or whatever) while everyone else has to sit and wait to be told where they're supposed to go for their race. It sounds messy and could mean lots of needless sitting round doing nothing. If you could get 100 people into the server and automatically shove em into a server then it'd be fine, but the organising is messy, anyone thats been in a server with a manually added reversed grid will know the time it takes getting everyone in the right order, couple in the fact that everyone needs to be told the server to be in, then the ordering one by one, waiting for the slow ones that disappear holding things up etc. Ideal world with everyone paying attention it would work, but the real world, with Pecker involved at some point? i dont think so ;)

[Arrow.]

Idea:[/B]
If you scrap divisions, and the whole promotion & relegation idea, and put all 48 teams into 1 big pot and then if this 'tracker' thing is so simple to implement then the X days before the race is to start have a server open to allow every team to submit their laps, it'd be an open qualifying server.
From there, you'd take the top 30 drivers and put them in server A. The next 30 drivers would go in server B, and the final 30 into server C (still only the fastest 2 from each team, just to be clear).

In S-A, points are awarded 90, 89, 88.... 62, 61
In S-B, points are awarded 60, 59, 58.... 32, 31
In S-C, points are awarded 30, 29, 28.... 2, 1

This means that in each server you should have the guarantee that your racing with 30 drivers of pretty much the same ability as each other. Being last in S-A would give you 1pt more than coming first in S-B, meaning the 30th placed driver gets 1 point more than the 31st placed.


Just thinking about what you said Paul and Storm_Cloud
I think the only way we could get this method to work is have 3 servers randomly put 32 driver/16 teams into each server on the day of the event have 20min qualifying with tracker running. 5-10 min break before this race where the grid positions will be posted here the drivers will move to there allocated server and get into positions.

example from qualifying tracker
1st - Fusion. Duck (grid position #1 Div A)
34th - Fusion Arrow (grid position #2 Div B)

If we were to go with this method ideally we would need some kind of insim program so the admins can sort the grid positions. Is this possible?

[joshdifabio]

oh, that was another Positive for qualifying before the race day, scrap that 25+ minute qualifying session and get some proper racing done instead!! No need to prance about for 25min deciding who goes where as the tracking would have decided that.

I can also see the benefit of the above suggestion though, however that would require 3 servers running a tracker, and the results from the 3 being merged i guess, dunno if thats possible to do automatically but doing it manually means at least 1 person sitting around figuring it out (ie Arrow at 6am or whatever) while everyone else has to sit and wait to be told where they're supposed to go for their race. It sounds messy and could mean lots of needless sitting round doing nothing. If you could get 100 people into the server and automatically shove em into a server then it'd be fine, but the organising is messy, anyone thats been in a server with a manually added reversed grid will know the time it takes getting everyone in the right order, couple in the fact that everyone needs to be told the server to be in, then the ordering one by one, waiting for the slow ones that disappear holding things up etc. Ideal world with everyone paying attention it would work, but the real world, with Pecker involved at some point? i dont think so ;)

Just thinking about what you said Paul and Storm_Cloud
I think the only way we could get this method to work is have 3 servers randomly put 32 driver/16 teams into each server on the day of the event have 20min qualifying with tracker running. 5-10 min break before this race where the grid positions will be posted here the drivers will move to there allocated server and get into positions.

example from qualifying tracker
1st - Fusion. Duck (grid position #1 Div A)
34th - Fusion Arrow (grid position #2 Div B)

If we were to go with this method ideally we would need some kind of insim program so the admins can sort the grid positions. Is this possible?

In the Vixen Challenge, when we had too many drivers for 1 server, we would qualify simultaneously on two servers and use a live tracker to merge the results as we qualified, and this would tell everyone which server they should be in at the end of quali.

With the new packets allowing external programs to position people on the grids automatically this could all be programmed quite effectively. I don't have the time to do it myself right now though, so you'll have to ask someone else :p.

We also used the same kind of points system as the one Paul is suggesting, which worked pretty well.

[Storm_Cloud]

OLFSL used a grid sorting system in the last round on my pool. We just had to get on the server and join the grid then the positions were sorted automatically. It worked quite well.

[PaulC2K]

So the tracker is able to compare and sort the results from multiple sources and then output the info for that itself, no manual messing about?

The only thing which would require some work would be an in-sim script to then take those results and when everyone is in their server it'd automatically grid people on the previously created results?

Sounds good if that can be done, I guess if the tracker is showing live data (or to the minute) then it wouldnt be too much for people to alt+tab out of LFS to check a results listing and then move to the correct server.

I liked the idea of being able to qualify when it was convenient, particularly as it means the 25min qual doesnt need to be done on the race day, (you could easily run 3x 30min races with breaks in under 2hrs) but i guess doing this leaves the possibility that it could be abused and this method see's to it that the person doing the driving is there to qualify.

[anttt69]

Idea:
If you scrap divisions, and the whole promotion & relegation idea, and put all 48 teams into 1 big pot and then if this 'tracker' thing is so simple to implement then the X days before the race is to start have a server open to allow every team to submit their laps, it'd be an open qualifying server.
From there, you'd take the top 30 drivers and put them in server A. The next 30 drivers would go in server B, and the final 30 into server C (still only the fastest 2 from each team, just to be clear).




This sounds more & more like OLFSL each day that passes. I still like the original division idea but must admit the pool system does have its merits.

[PaulC2K]

So they use this exact setup for their series (or near enough)?

I havent taken part since series 2 & 3 and entered into 4 when i think they were taking hotlaps for qualifying times, but its been a loooong time since i looked into what they were doing but knew they had something similar ages back.
I dont think thats a bad thing or a reason not to use it, afterall you dont reject the best option just because its been done before, but if a better/more suitable alternative is available then it should at least be looked into IMO, particularly if its less complicated and gives good results for everyone concerned. The in-sim method does sound good though, provided that we can find something to do this. I guess we have quite a bit of time its not like its kicking off in 2 weeks time or owt.

[Storm_Cloud]

OLFSL is hotlap based and there is no qualifying. Hotlap sorts out your pool and grid position, but you can do the lap anytime before the grid is set, not in a session which is part of the event.

[joshdifabio]

So the tracker is able to compare and sort the results from multiple sources and then output the info for that itself, no manual messing about?

The only thing which would require some work would be an in-sim script to then take those results and when everyone is in their server it'd automatically grid people on the previously created results?

Sounds good if that can be done, I guess if the tracker is showing live data (or to the minute) then it wouldnt be too much for people to alt+tab out of LFS to check a results listing and then move to the correct server.

I liked the idea of being able to qualify when it was convenient, particularly as it means the 25min qual doesnt need to be done on the race day, (you could easily run 3x 30min races with breaks in under 2hrs) but i guess doing this leaves the possibility that it could be abused and this method see's to it that the person doing the driving is there to qualify.

Yeah, it's all live, with a web based viewer for drivers to see how they are doing. You can merge the times from as many servers as you like very easily. Infact, I guess it could probably be viewable in-game now, with the new functionality available to programmers.

The reason I chose this system for the most recent Vixen Challenge season is that I think it's the best measure of each drivers' speed on the day. Hotlaps are no good imo, as some people may have time to hotlap 15 hours a day until they get the perfect lap, but 9 times out of 10 be slower than another driver who didn't have so much time to hotlap. Using software to track pre-qualifying servers is also not optimum as far as I'm concerned, mainly because it can be so easily abused. Qualifying on the day against 90 other drivers is certainly much more exciting than having weeks to hotlap.

[anttt69]

I agree with Josh, this system stops people from putting in hours & hours just to get a good time & also adds a bit of pressure on the day.

Another way would be to limit the time each driver is allowed on the qualification server, that way the Pools/divisions would be sorted before the event & their would be less pressure on the organisers on the day.

[Cawwa]

Yeah, it's all live, with a web based viewer for drivers to see how they are doing. You can merge the times from as many servers as you like very easily. Infact, I guess it could probably be viewable in-game now, with the new functionality available to programmers.

The reason I chose this system for the most recent Vixen Challenge season is that I think it's the best measure of each drivers' speed on the day. Hotlaps are no good imo, as some people may have time to hotlap 15 hours a day until they get the perfect lap, but 9 times out of 10 be slower than another driver who didn't have so much time to hotlap. Using software to track pre-qualifying servers is also not optimum as far as I'm concerned, mainly because it can be so easily abused. Qualifying on the day against 90 other drivers is certainly much more exciting than having weeks to hotlap.

This sounds very interesting Josh!

If we go one step further, is it possible to have the whole race registered in time?
I mean, each driver could be ranked over a 5 lap race (with standing start and all) instead of only a single best lap? Such a rank would be alot better imo. I've used that before, in another game, to rank both drivers as well as teams.

[Viper93]

The reason I chose this system for the most recent Vixen Challenge season is that I think it's the best measure of each drivers' speed on the day. Hotlaps are no good imo, as some people may have time to hotlap 15 hours a day until they get the perfect lap, but 9 times out of 10 be slower than another driver who didn't have so much time to hotlap. Using software to track pre-qualifying servers is also not optimum as far as I'm concerned, mainly because it can be so easily abused. Qualifying on the day against 90 other drivers is certainly much more exciting than having weeks to hotlap.

Yes I agree =)

I don't mind whats used as long as there isn't a system that would allow people to upload hotlaps or qualify days before a race.

[Arrow.]

Just made a adjustment to my idea and rewrote it with reasons why/why no (stole your posting sturcture paul :shy:) hopefully it makes sense....

Idea
Open 3 servers for 2 weeks each on different combos
FWD: Kyoto National Reverse - XFG
RWD: Blackwood GP - GTR
Open wheeler: South City Town - MRT
All team drivers can enter the servers and set a times
The Tracker will record all the times which will be displayed on the BOTT website (coming soon).
To determine the divisions take fastest lap from each team and from all 3 servers. Add these lap times together as a total this will decide the divisions


Reasons why:
- No time wasting and mucking around before rounds, waiting for all 96 drivers to minimize check what server they are in and get into grid positions
- Has more of a competitive feel about it (imo) trying to get some fast times in to be put into a decent division aswell as trying to move up divisions
- More team effort/spirit working together on the servers sharing setups, tips ect
- 3 combos in different cars and track same as the series so the teams in Div A should be the fastest

Reasons why not?
- may get some people driving on the server for hours on end how ever this would be no different then practice for the rounds and pauls method
- may take some time to sort and add together the lap times.

[baSh0r]

can't we take different combos, i mean like those which are not going to be driven durin the season?

[Arrow.]

we could do that... (thats was what i first came up with)
I jus thought it would be better to find the fastest teams on the combos we are going to race on. and would save arguments when picking the 3 combos.

if we are going to have different combos i'd suggest Main hotlap combos
UF1 on AS cadet
FZR on KY gp long
FO8 on WE interntl

[Cawwa]

What I miss with this suggestion is the lack of team effort.

I still prefere the three best times from each teams in each combo. Shouldn't be to hard to filter that out?

[Storm_Cloud]

When are we going to get a definitive answer? I'm itching to get on the qualifying combos!

[Arrow.]

I've been waiting for some more discussion

but looks like i will just put a poll up soon :shrug: