Something needs to be done with the HANDICAPS!

[wasaabi]

I really think this should be a server option and not a requirement!!! You could post up online the official handicaps for servers to use if they wanted to be official, but having this handicap in a race of all XRT drivers is completely stupid. I usually use between 7-10 percent fuel to control how slippery the rear of the XRT is, thats a difference of less than 2 kg. 20kg makes a pretty big difference...

[srdsprinter]

-1

Sorry, but +20kg IS what the XRR is now. Sorry about your all-XRR race, but why does it affect it if all cars are equal? The Pentalty on the FZR is very harsh, because all setups need rethinks, and it eats tires and chugs gas at alarming rates now.

[evilgeek]

I really think this should be a server option and not a requirement!!! You could post up online the official handicaps for servers to use if they wanted to be official, but having this handicap in a race of all XRT drivers is completely stupid. I usually use between 7-10 percent fuel to control how slippery the rear of the XRT is, thats a difference of less than 2 kg. 20kg makes a pretty big difference...

first of all, you missed your chance to give input on the handicap system. there was absolutely loads of discussion on the subject during patch testing (W17 and so on).

second, using fuel to adjust the handling of the car is stupid.

[Nosser]

But I think wasaabi is right, because the most drivers who use XRT are demoracers and on demo you have nothing to compare with the XRT. I think it would be better to make it a server option so that the people who play online in a server with the XRT just can set normal times that can be compared with the lfsworld times and can drive unofficial WR's...

[geeman1]

Having a server option to disable global handicaps would just make servers not use the handicaps.
Making the handicaps disabled while there is only one car available would just add unnecessary complexity.

[AndroidXP]

You're very eager to find "what's wrong with LFS", aren't you? I'm all for constructive criticism, but what you're pulling off here seems to be overly pessimistic banter. :really:

Please don't take it personally, and maybe I'm wrong, but something just really irks me about your posts.

[srdsprinter]

Please. Nothing is "wrong" with Patch X. It improves many aspects of LFS, and moves its development forward.

Balancing the classes is a priority of dev's so the Entire community had the opportunity to participate in balancing them. You didn't choose to, your loss.

[geeman1]

Balancing the classes is a priority of dev's so the Entire community had the opportunity to participate in balancing them. You didn't choose to, your loss.Everybody can participate in the balancing even now. Scawen can adjust the handicaps at any moment without a patch.

[srdsprinter]

Indeed. In fact we all need to engage in testing (at least those of us who want to complain).

While i agree, online testing various weights/intakes could help the balancing process, not making the pentalties mandatory just add unneccessary amounts of confusion.

[joen]

Funny how some people know so well how to criticize changes in LFS all the time, yet choose not to partake in discussions about planned changes before they are implemented and complain afterwards. Talk about obnoxious, passive and clueless.

Besides, the whole handicap system is temporary anyway until definitive changes are made to the cars specs. So if you have constructive suggestions for it, act now and don't come complaining when it's too late again...

[wasaabi]

Its not my job to be part of the damn devolopment team! I didn't think there'd be stupid crap like this coming down the pipeline. What has happened here, is that the drivers have been driving, and the forum-junkies have been discussing the changes! why fix something that isnt broken? I get used to driving the XRT with my setups around tracks, and now theres a completely pointless 20kg stacked on it, which throws it off completely. thats just great that there planning on screwing around with EVERYTHING again, go on and see if I buy S3... Theres no point in getting good at something if the skill is useless again in a few months!! I happily bought S1, and when S2 came out I was a little pissed but I bought it anyway assuming that the physics and cars were going to stay mostly the same. I'm NOT buying S3 if theres going to be another one of these epic changeovers. I'd have stuck a fork in S2 and called it done after the connecting issues were fixed and maybe a few other small interface things. Because, the old S2 is what I bought, and not X!

Dont get me wrong though the global handicap system is the only problem I've got with the new version, other than that they've done a great job fixing up the game.

[geeman1]

:really:

[joen]

but I bought it anyway assuming that the physics and cars were going to stay mostly the same.

All I can say is that if you're hoping for the physics model to stay the same forever, you're going to be dissapointed. It's not finished after all, this sim is a work in progress.

the old S2 is what I bought, and not X!
End-user license agreement
1.4You must be aware that we can alter any aspect of LFS as we see fit. Improvements, fixes and/or changes made to the game, are to be expected.

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to you in my previous post. Sorry if it came across that way.

[srdsprinter]

:really:
+1

[wasaabi]

All I can say is that if you're hoping for the physics model to stay the same forever, you're going to be dissapointed. It's not finished after all, this sim is a work in progress.


Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to you in my previous post. Sorry if it came across that way.

whatever, I make games too on a completely amateur level and even I know "if its in doubt, make it an option". And I know hes got the right to change his software, I've got my right to not buy the next version.

[srdsprinter]

Fair enough, but complaining over widely accepted improvements from something clearly laid out in the end user agreement will get you nowhere.

[wasaabi]

neither will your postcount whoring, go away

[srdsprinter]

whatever, I make games too on a completely amateur level and even I know "if its in doubt, make it an option". And I know hes got the right to change his software, I've got my right to not buy the next version.


You make games. Scavier makes a Sim. Huge difference.

A racing Simulation, which they want to be at their prefered level of realism. You don't like it, it doesn't bother them. As they've said, they aren't doing this for you.

[Serpentine]

Thats whats wrong with LFS. Not everyone was discussing that patch W17. Only testers.

And then we get the official patch which has many stuff wrong.

Anyone could test the patches. That's what's 'right' about LFS.

[Hankstar]

Its not my job to be part of the damn devolopment team!
LFS has operated this way for four years. It's not going to change because you're pissed off about 20kg.

I didn't think there'd be stupid crap like this coming down the pipeline. What has happened here, is that the drivers have been driving, and the forum-junkies have been discussing the changes!
People giving feedback - that's what happens on forums (big surprise). You sure found this place quick enough when you wanted to complain though ...

why fix something that isnt broken? I get used to driving the XRT with my setups around tracks, and now theres a completely pointless 20kg stacked on it, which throws it off completely.
Sucks to be you. Thing is, it's happened to all of us. The other thing is, loads of people complained about the uneven car classes (GTRs especially) and the devs decided to do something about it. Public opinion in action. There was plenty of time to make yourself heard.

thats just great that there planning on screwing around with EVERYTHING again, go on and see if I buy S3... Theres no point in getting good at something if the skill is useless again in a few months!!
That's the spirit, give up before you even try. I hope they continue to "screw around" because there are plenty of things in LFS that aren't yet complete (physics, damage being two of the big ones) or even included (weather, night). I really don't care if all my setups and PBs are voided by new changes if it means the driving experience is better. If you want something that doesn't change, play GT4.

I happily bought S1, and when S2 came out I was a little pissed but I bought it anyway assuming that the physics and cars were going to stay mostly the same.
You should've read the forum :tilt:

I'm NOT buying S3 if theres going to be another one of these epic changeovers. I'd have stuck a fork in S2 and called it done after the connecting issues were fixed and maybe a few other small interface things. Because, the old S2 is what I bought, and not X!
You bought a Work In Progress known as S2 Alpha. If you thought S2 was "done", you clearly don't know a race sim from a bag of cherries and you know even less about how this dev team has operated since 2003.

Dont get me wrong though the global handicap system is the only problem I've got with the new version, other than that they've done a great job fixing up the game.
So how do you explain the rest of your rant? :confused: First it's some epic change that has you in knots because all your sets need to be re-tooled and there's no way you're buying S3 if they do something like it again, the very next second "they've done a great job" fixing it! Make up your mind ...

[wasaabi]

You make games. Scavier makes a Sim. Huge difference.

A racing Simulation, which they want to be at their prefered level of realism. You don't like it, it doesn't bother them. As they've said, they aren't doing this for you.

561!! keep the useless BS coming!


I took a quick poll in the demo server that I was in before making this post and out of 14 people no one liked the idea of this handicap... I very rarely see TBO class races on S2 servers which is why I race in demo. I have the feeling these changes have been the result of bitching forum warriors such as yourself. And thats a shame.

and to you Mr. Breakin it down : The connection issue was something stupid that should have been gone a while ago, they did good to fix it! the other improvements done so far during S2 have been great, I like the new sounds and the rest of the interface stuff. Thats all great. This handicap to me is as stupid as it could possibly be. An unchangeable added weight thats only there during multiplayer, even in demo races where the XRT is the only TBO car. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me...

[Hankstar]

14 people in a demo server in two minutes versus feedback from hundreds of licensed forum members over weeks of testing. Very convincing.

The thing about LFS is that the developers use this forum (and its assorted warriors and post-count whores) to do exactly what's pissed you off: try new ideas, test patches, find bugs, add content/options. Leading up to a patch release, Scawen is in here frequently getting feedback and bug reports. A lot of the things implemented in LFS have in fact been as a result of suggestions from users. However, you can keep up to date or you can choose not to, your choice. Post or not, up to you. Just read for five minutes before you start bitching.

Bottom line, if you don't like the LFS development process, blame the devs! It's how they like to work and most of us whores dig it.

[Breizh]

He has a point, though, whiny or not. What's the use of ballasting the XRT in the Demo servers?

[Hankstar]

I guess so it's the same as in the licensed servers. Imagine the bitching if someone got used to a +20kg XRT in the demo and then found the lighter one in S2 - or, more likely, drove a heavier one in S2 and then found it was 20kg lighter in the demo? "No faaaair, why can't we have a lighter one in S2 like in the demo, all my setups don't work, waaah," etc...

[bbman]

Surprisingly, people still don't grasp the meaning of temporary car class balancing...

And yes, it doesn't make that much sense to apply handicaps if everyone races with the same car, but then: what forced that limiting to just one car? Right, the imbalance in those classes!

Of course, people unable to see it as the chance of having good, balanced races with a whole class rather than one car, start moaning and demand immediate change...

[Breizh]

Damned if you do...
Do licensed players really use demo servers that much anyway?

If I were a dev respecting the rule of not negotiating with whines of mass distraction terrorists, the sensible choice would be to give players what they play the game for: more speed.

[Burnzoire]

1) Scawen does not want there to be "different versions" of cars from server to server. It causes a lot of confusion, especially with setups.

2) Scawen wants to balance the cars so one car no longer dominates. An obvious move and you'd be silly to disagree with that.

Something's got to give, surely you can see that?



LFS won't stay unbalanced and exactly the same forever just so you and your buddies can drive your XRT's without any changes.

Put it this way, what about REAL racing series? They change every year, teams and drivers have to adapt to the changes every year and they don't complain because something worked differently last year. Suck it up and adapt. If this changed every month I'd agree with you, but it doesn't. I find it amazing that you are even complaining that things have changed since S1... What do you think this sim is called? "Live For Wasaabi"???

[Shotglass]

I very rarely see TBO class races on S2 servers

you must have been living under a rock for the last 6 months there was at least 1 tbo server which was full 24/7

Do licensed players really use demo servers that much anyway?

not too long ago it was the only place to get a decent tbo race (ie one that isnt a fxo only competition)

while i agree that there isnt that much point in having the balancing in place on single car an dorifto servers its not like 20 kg really makes that much of a difference

[atledreier]

God help us when we get changing track conditions like temperatures and stuff... And how about wind?

It's the same for everyone, deal with it.

[AndroidXP]

while i agree that there isnt that much point in having the balancing in place on single car an dorifto servers its not like 20 kg really makes that much of a difference
Yes, it's actually just like you had taken 40% fuel instead of 10% :shrug:

[JJ72]

He has a point, though, whiny or not. What's the use of ballasting the XRT in the Demo servers?#

So People don't whine and make a post all over again when they move to S2 and discover the car is 20kg heavier and they have to redo a setup that is perfect, took thousand of their precious hours, feel like losing a arm for not being able to use it. :tilt:


come on....if you cannot change a set for 20kg of handicap, maybe you should learn how to setup, all over again?

[axus]

God help us when we get changing track conditions like temperatures and stuff... And how about wind?

It's the same for everyone, deal with it.

"Aaaargh, no, now I have to make different setups for different track temperatures and air temperatures."

There will always be people who bitch about a patch... we saw it last year in the April update and this year again. 99% of the paying customers (and some new ones I'm sure) are more than thrilled with the changes.

Seriously... boohoo, 20kg, raise the rear a mm or two and stiffen the rear springs by a kN/m or two and your car will drive just the same even if it's .2s slower per lap. The important thing is the classes are now balanced and you can have proper multi-car races online. That means that everyone can drive the car they actually enjoy rather than the fastest car in the class.

[xt]

Balancing? nice idea, but its sim, right? i think car difference is natural and no need to be balanced. else why not adding more power to xrg? lets put a ton to bf1, and then try to race balanced :tilt:

okay, its just opinion. :)

[AndroidXP]

:doh:

Obviously you're a demo racer, so you don't actually know why the classes were balanced - I guess you wouldn't like a class where the cars are different but have on average equal chances to win then, but rather you'd like the old system where the FXO completely dominated XRT and RB4 on every track (bar rallyX)?

The current class balancing is very good and while maybe not perfect, it's already much better than the absolute FXO/FZR ownage we had beforehand. And just because the cars drive about equal lap times now does not mean they handle all the same. The different cars still have different advantages depending on the track layout.

[geeman1]

Balancing? nice idea, but its sim, right? i think car difference is natural and no need to be balanced. else why not adding more power to xrg? lets put a ton to bf1, and then try to race balanced :tilt:
:doh:
Difference is normal yes, but this is still a game and it's more fun if every car in the same class are competitive. LFS' cars aren't even bound by real life specs so there is no reason why the specs couldn't be changed. Ballast/Restrictor plate system was used because it doesn't screw up the WRs and it has other uses too (leagues). It is also T E M P O R A R Y.

[joen]

Balancing? nice idea, but its sim, right? i think car difference is natural and no need to be balanced. else why not adding more power to xrg? lets put a ton to bf1, and then try to race balanced :tilt:

okay, its just opinion. :)

Yes, car difference is normal, but there are severall car classes in LFS and those classes had a clearly strongest car making the other cars hardly used because they were almost always uncompetitive. This requires adjustments, it´s something the community has been asking for for a long time.
If one of the cars in a class is clearly the best, it´s not of much use to create car classes in the first place.
The BF1 is a real car so it should have the real specs. And besides that, the BF1 is alone in it´s class so balancing wouldn´t be needed anyway.

[xt]

:doh:

Obviously you're a demo racer, so you don't actually know why the classes were balanced - I guess you wouldn't like a class where the cars are different but have on average equal chances to win then, but rather you'd like the old system where the FXO completely dominated XRT and RB4 on every track (bar rallyX)?

The current class balancing is very good and while maybe not perfect, it's already much better than the absolute FXO/FZR ownage we had beforehand. And just because the cars drive about equal lap times now does not mean they handle all the same. The different cars still have different advantages depending on the track layout.


anyways, demo or licensed, this do not changes the topic, and handicaps to car is kinda unlogical (its temporary or not). okay, lets leave it and look at it from other point of view. lets say that im super pro, and i dont see a challenge online, then i can increase handicap to myself and then challenge others. another ponint of view. im good at some car but cant beat the car that owns ohter cars, then i switch to that car and learn to drive her to be the owner.

personaly i will deal with ALL changes, but im suggesting this if Live for Speed will be going with sim tag. (XRT simulated with 20 kg sandbag in trunk?.. also simulation, cant disagree :shrug: )

[geeman1]

personaly i will deal with ALL changes, but im suggesting this if Live for Speed will be going with sim tag. (XRT simulated with 20 kg sandbag in trunk?.. also simulation, cant disagree :shrug: )It's not a sandbag. The car just weighs 20kg more than before..

[Jakg]

I took a quick poll in the demo server that I was in before making this post and out of 14 people no one liked the idea of this handicap... I very rarely see TBO class races on S2 servers which is why I race in demo. CTRA Silver & Gold? OLT Pro server? :shrug:
Please don't take it personally, and maybe I'm wrong, but something just really irks me about your posts.Nail on the head, it's not like you just don't like something, irrespective of what it is you complain.anyways, demo or licensed, this do not changes the topic, and handicaps to car is kinda unlogical (its temporary or not). okay, lets leave it and look at it from other point of view. lets say that im super pro, and i dont see a challenge online, then i can increase handicap to myself and then challenge others. another ponint of view. im good at some car but cant beat the car that owns ohter cars, then i switch to that car and learn to drive her to be the owner. erm - it used to be that if you got in one car (the FXO) you WOULD win because it was massively faster, and now this has been fixed (almost - but thats something else)

You can already increase your own handicrap

[AndroidXP]

anyways, demo or licensed, this do not changes the topicYes it does. Because demo racers do not have access to the TBO class, but just to the XRT. Of course the 20kg don't make sense to you, because you have never raced in the TBO class. But everyone who has will agree with the changes, because now all three cars have quite equal chances of winning, instead of the FXO dominating the class.

[xt]

reduce performance of those cars or do heavier and all TBO will be balanced. not that temporary handicap option!

[Jakg]

Erm, how do you think they were ballancing the cars in the first place? with more weight, of course....

[geeman1]

reduce performance of those cars or do heavier and all TBO will be balanced. not that temporary handicap option!Just that will be done.. But changing the weight, power or anythign else of the car permanently needs a physically incompatible patch. That is why a temporary balancing was implemented so that the balance can be changed inbetween physics patches too.

[xt]

You can already increase your own handicrap

dude, you say this like you increasing handicap everytime..

forget it.

[sinbad]

I don't think there is a right or wrong point of view here.

You could say that a car should be the same wherever you drive it, but they are still different online vs. offline. So if that difference is acceptable and makes no or little difference, then surely adding ballast to every fxo on a just-fxo server makes no difference either.
There's no point in adding the ballast if the cars are not competing in the TBO class, but then there's not much point in going to the trouble of taking it away either.
However, if there were an FXO only series, why shouldn't they enjoy the full blooded FXO if the ballast is a temporary TBO balancing device?

my 2cents

[danowat]

Seriously... boohoo, 20kg, raise the rear a mm or two and stiffen the rear springs by a kN/m or two and your car will drive just the same even if it's .2s slower per lap. The important thing is the classes are now balanced and you can have proper multi-car races online. That means that everyone can drive the car they actually enjoy rather than the fastest car in the class.

Nail hit right on the head.

I really can't see the mentality of this complaining about the balancing :shrug:

[Breizh]

Disregard my post. I hadn't actually thought about it, 20kg is nothing..
Not dividing the community is a better rule of thumb than not applying class balancing for 20kg's worth of extra speed in servers not using the full TBO class.

[axus]

xt, handicaps exist in real life as well. For example, in certain series, cars with more power than a certain amount would have added mass to even them out... this can also be drivetrain based - for example, RWD cars might get handicapped because of their better handling. Saying handicaps are unrealistic is therefore idiotic. Voluntary handicaps are also fantastic for leagues albeit it'd be even better if they could be server enforced. :shrug: :)

[srdsprinter]

561!! keep the useless BS coming!
I have chosen to take part in the community, until now you have not. I cannot apologize for taking an interest in something I enjoy.

I took a quick poll in the demo server that I was in before making this post and out of 14 people no one liked the idea of this handicap... I very rarely see TBO class races on S2 servers which is why I race in demo. I have the feeling these changes have been the result of bitching forum warriors such as yourself. And thats a shame.
Demo racers are not the consumer base that the developers are trying to please. In fact, they’re not really out to please anyone. It is almost comical you have not seen the TBO class become hugely popular in the recent past. The STCC and then the CTRA have (bold statement) revolutionized LFS for lots of users. It is comical that I rarely take part in the STCC or CTRA, but you accuse me of bitching for balancing. Before the balancing came out, I had absolutely No opinion or comments on it.

and to you Mr. Breakin it down : The connection issue was something stupid that should have been gone a while ago, they did good to fix it! the other improvements done so far during S2 have been great, I like the new sounds and the rest of the interface stuff. Thats all great. This handicap to me is as stupid as it could possibly be. An unchangeable added weight thats only there during multiplayer, even in demo races where the XRT is the only TBO car. Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me...
It is pretty simply. Single player allows users to continue to set valid WR hot laps. SP also allows testing of various lower ballast/intake combinations such that the community can help balance the classes more. Multi-player has closer class racing in the TBO and GTR classes due to the Global Class Balancing. GCB was heavily discussed and tested for quite some time (by well more than 14 demo racers or solely “Forum-Warriors”). Physics improvements have presumably already begun, so with Patch Y all WR’s will be reset, and your setups will need reworking again.

Thankfully, LFS gives Every user the opportunity to take part in the development of the sim through the test patch program. While the test patch sub-forum is gone now, once we get closer to Patch Y it will return and you will have the opportunity to voice your thoughts. Get involved, try the test patches, help LFS move forwards.

I am sorry if the 20kg does not make sense to you, but if you continue to stay out of the process and community your voice will continue to not be heard.

[JJ72]

anyways, demo or licensed, this do not changes the topic, and handicaps to car is kinda unlogical (its temporary or not). okay, lets leave it and look at it from other point of view. lets say that im super pro, and i dont see a challenge online, then i can increase handicap to myself and then challenge others. another ponint of view. im good at some car but cant beat the car that owns ohter cars, then i switch to that car and learn to drive her to be the owner.

personaly i will deal with ALL changes, but im suggesting this if Live for Speed will be going with sim tag. (XRT simulated with 20 kg sandbag in trunk?.. also simulation, cant disagree :shrug: )

obviously you have never heard of restricter plate and ballasts.

[JJ72]

reduce performance of those cars or do heavier and all TBO will be balanced. not that temporary handicap option!

And the FXO will have the tire downsized as a permanent solution in the next patch. Temporary option is for finding out the balance, and for observing the result of such changes.

[[d9]]

hmmm, demo (racers) are very important to game - demo is gate to full game, free advertisting, most of demo racers (including me) expanding good reputation of game to new people, creating stuff, ... etc. some of demo racers also got brains and can have helpful ideas.

my point of view - i losing fun with racing xrt. there are 2 different cars - xrt with handicap and xrt without handicap. with 1st you can do wr, you can usually practice offline, but no more practising and fun with "same" people online - much like practising with wind? - you like it?.
of course - its hotlapping - alternative to compare with others - you can win races or/and be faster in hotlap...
im not interested in this "duality". because of this i drive (practise) online with gt cars now - no loss for lfs or world, only for me :schwitz:

and, i think - racers (including me) are happier when can be faster, no slower, so more motivate is speed up of slower cars than handicap faster... i know, handicaps are easier to implement...

why are demo servers with xrt handicapped?
its very simply and i understand devs - demo racers are very good and numerous testing drivers for final choice in changed weight of xrt.

[Shotglass]

;453733']demo is gate to full game

looking at your join date and most of all looking at xts join date i dont buy it ... and neither do you

[XCNuse]

[d9] that will all change in patch Y, the weights now are what they should be to equal out the classes.

Plus, demo racers have no say in the weight distributions, mainly because they only have 1 car of that class and that is the XRT, which was fastest along with the FXO completely through the history of LFS, and it is about time the RB4 can keep up with them, so the devs made some changes to slow them down.

Get used to it, because that is the XRT from now on.

[Bob Smith]

;453733']and, i think - racers (including me) are happier when can be faster, no slower, so more motivate is speed up of slower cars than handicap faster...
In the end of either method you end up with a set of cars with some arbitrary perfarmance figures. What's the difference? I just think too meny people have an obsessien with speed, thinking it's more fun or will lead to more excinig roces. In practise, it's neither.

[Nasty!]

i have realy confused now. I hate that extra weight in xrt.My faforite car is spoiled with extra weight and yes i have s2 but i love that xrt car.
why that balance cant do like put more power them which is slower etc......

www.ncr-team.net (http://www.ncr-team.net)

[XCNuse]

Because those cars already have plenty of power, that XRT is only a 4 banger and produces way over 200 horsepower.
Set the weight in the back, it really hasn't slowed down that much.

Get over it, everyone else has to put up with it so it makes no difference, it is unreal to have a 300bhp car that only has 4 cylinders.

[Shotglass]

Get over it, everyone else has to put up with it so it makes no difference, it is unreal to have a 300bhp car that only has 4 cylinders.

uh were in europe here not the us ... i know plenty of cars with these kind of performance figures

[XCNuse]

Nowadays sure, but the XRT is based off of the Starion and RX7 FC, neither of which even produced 200 bhp.

[Shotglass]

the fc was produced in the late 80s to early 90s the cars im talking about were as well

the most comparable car to the xrt i know has a 2.3l 4 banger with a turbo at 0.7 bar (less than the xrt) and produces ~300 hp on an engine that was built in the same timeframe as the fc

edit: other cars i know get ~290 hp from 2.5l naturally aspirated 4 bangers with (heavily modified) engines from that timeframe

[Burnzoire]

Of course the demo racers do not like the change - they don't have other cars to realise the benefits of this balancing move. That doesn't excuse their ignorance, however.

It's been said a million times, that this ballast system is a STEPPING-STONE to the next physically incompatible patch where all records will be wiped. Using the data from these patches, the car specs will be altered in order to allow for more even racing. It is exactly because of the LFSW stats that this has to be done this way. These patches are here to MAKE SURE the cars are balanced and do not need to be tweaked any more, thus, the new LFSW stats will remain valid. So if you're complaining about the stats, about having to do WR runs in single player, then you need not worry as it will be resolved soon enough. Show some patience, ESPECIALLY the demo racers. We have paid for our product, so why should you guys be so much more demanding and impatient?

On the flip side, perhaps now would be a good time to introduce a new car for the demo, another TBO to demonstrate how much fun it is to race different cars against each other. Yes, I also understand the importance of keeping the demo community happy, as it is where practically all S2 drivers started.

I might make a video of a 32 car race of FXO's + RB4's + XRT's for demo users to see - it's too much fun to miss out on.

[axus]

On the flip side, perhaps now would be a good time to introduce a new car for the demo, another TBO to demonstrate how much fun it is to race different cars against each other. Yes, I also understand the importance of keeping the demo community happy, as it is where practically all S2 drivers started..

So they can spend more time making demo teams, and want more features... why not give them another track while we're at it? People already race this game for too long before purchasing it.

[Gunn]

anyways, demo or licensed, this do not changes the topic, and handicaps to car is kinda unlogical (its temporary or not).Class balancing occurs in real life too. Sometimes by weight regulations, sometimes by regulating or restricting the car mechanically. Handicaps to a particular car to make it competitive with other cars in its class is quite logical. In fact, without balancing you have no class at all, just a bunch of unmatched cars.

If three cars in the class are not matched or not competitive with each other, then most drivers will choose to race the one fastest car of the bunch. Racing is about winning, after all. Instead of this kind of exclusion, a class balancing handicap system makes the three cars more competitive with each other and therefore we get a much richer racing experience (with a variety of drive trains in the case of the TBO and GTR classes in LFS).

The racing becomes more interesting, more competitive, more challenging by having a balanced class. It's a great improvement to LFS when you look at it this way.

[xt]

3rd world coutry does not let me to buy this game, £ 24 is hell money here, and thats not all, bank system makes BIG barrier to transfer money outside my country and total cost of game raises to 2x £ 24 = £ 48, so dont say that im demo and i dont have a word, i saw this game evoluting since very begining, my join date would be 2002 but at 2002 internet here was only at RICH ones. try to be in my place. im dreaming about lfs license not less than ALL of you before buying.

now back to topic

okay, this balancing system is required ONLY when same class cars racing on track, so maybe lets discuss not overal balancing but class balancing on STCC or CTRA races, otherwise leave cars with own unique specs.


Burnzoire, plz do that video, i cant wait to see what i missed.

Peace.

[JJ72]

so you are saying we shouldn't race these cars in the same time, unless it's for STCC or CTRA? What kind of logic is that?#

And not like after balanced the car don't have unique specs, so where is that logic again?

[AndroidXP]

...Just get used to the handicaps already. When patch Y comes around, all the handicaps will be removed again, and instead the car stats themselves will be altered to reflect the current balancing. The XRT will get slower, if you like it or not.

[xt]

so you are saying we shouldn't race these cars in the same time

No, for you im saying, race them all, live happy. enjoy balance.

[PwrSlave]

But I think wasaabi is right, because the most drivers who use XRT are demoracers and on demo you have nothing to compare with the XRT. I think it would be better to make it a server option so that the people who play online in a server with the XRT just can set normal times that can be compared with the lfsworld times and can drive unofficial WR's...

What are you joking or what?

btw -1 for server option

[PwrSlave]

Its not my job to be part of the damn devolopment team! I didn't think there'd be stupid crap like this coming down the pipeline. What has happened here, is that the drivers have been driving, and the forum-junkies have been discussing the changes! why fix something that isnt broken? I get used to driving the XRT with my setups around tracks, and now theres a completely pointless 20kg stacked on it, which throws it off completely. thats just great that there planning on screwing around with EVERYTHING again, go on and see if I buy S3... Theres no point in getting good at something if the skill is useless again in a few months!! I happily bought S1, and when S2 came out I was a little pissed but I bought it anyway assuming that the physics and cars were going to stay mostly the same. I'm NOT buying S3 if theres going to be another one of these epic changeovers. I'd have stuck a fork in S2 and called it done after the connecting issues were fixed and maybe a few other small interface things. Because, the old S2 is what I bought, and not X!

Dont get me wrong though the global handicap system is the only problem I've got with the new version, other than that they've done a great job fixing up the game.


Oh you mean EPIC setup chase? See the great thing is now you get to adjust ur setups for XRT so they fine again it dont take that long only tweaking. You will be able to use skillz there. So much for srewing, ffs relax 20 kg is nothin it 1,6 % overall mass of the car. And it is not that radical!

[Mauni]

Come on! It's only 20kg. Not a big deal. So lap times are few tenths slower, so what? It's not like XRT lost half ot it's power... I'm sure new(ish) players are still struggling to keep the car at their control.

i have realy confused now. I hate that extra weight in xrt.My faforite car is spoiled with extra weight and yes i have s2 but i love that xrt car.
why that balance cant do like put more power them which is slower etc......

www.ncr-team.net (http://www.ncr-team.net)

Finally you can grab a win or two in your favourite car. What's so spoiled in that? TBO class is now temporary balanced by restrictions and you have a chance to win with every car. That wasn't the case week ago.

[cmckowen]

Wow read the whole thread and yes I share your dissapointment that the cars are slower. But you know what I got over it!!!

I was always an FXO driver as there was never a chance for me to beat it with the XRT or RB4. Now the FXO is seconds a lap slower than it usually was for me on the longer circuits but now im battling with all the cars which i have to say is what the racing should be. We are not here to race at WR level, you cant when you are going side by side through corners anyways.

Really if it was possible it would be priceless to get some S2 drivers into the demo servers with some FXO's and you demo drives can have your 20kg's removed and we will have our restriction removed. It wont even take a race before you will take that 20kg back and enforce our restriction. You would then really see why this balancing has been put in place.

[Nasty!]

Come on! It's only 20kg. Not a big deal. So lap times are few tenths slower, so what? It's not like XRT lost half ot it's power... I'm sure new(ish) players are still struggling to keep the car at their control.



Finally you can grab a win or two in your favourite car. What's so spoiled in that? TBO class is now temporary balanced by restrictions and you have a chance to win with every car. That wasn't the case week ago.

extra weight suck better i see more power that slower car than drive xrt + 20kg sandback in my car :(

[danowat]

extra weight suck better i see more power that slower car than drive xrt + 20kg sandback in my car :(

And in english?

[JJ72]

extra weight suck better i see more power that slower car than drive xrt + 20kg sandback in my car :(

it's just in your head, bud. If I give you two XRT, one heavier and one lighter by 20kg but not telling you which on it is. You couldn't even tell.:really:

now go practice and be a better driver, you will then have a faster car.:tilt:

[Feffe85]

But I think wasaabi is right, because the most drivers who use XRT are demoracers and on demo you have nothing to compare with the XRT. I think it would be better to make it a server option so that the people who play online in a server with the XRT just can set normal times that can be compared with the lfsworld times and can drive unofficial WR's...

i'm not a demoracer, but i ALWAYS drive the XRT, so keep your asumptions for yourself.. i know that "asumption" is spelled wrong.. dont care..

[Spils]

Plus, demo racers have no say in the weight distributions, mainly because they only have 1 car of that class and that is the XRT, which was fastest along with the FXO completely through the history of LFS, and it is about time the RB4 can keep up with them, so the devs made some changes to slow them down.

Get used to it, because that is the XRT from now on.

The only thing i dont get is why restrict the best cars inclass instead of improving the ones not so good. ?

Why not use the best car in the class as the benchmark and improve everything around that, instead of going in the other direction by dumbing everything down.

Im all for balancing, theres nothing worse than driving an RB4 and then watch the FXO and XRT's pull away into the dinstance, while your pushing as much as you can.

I'd just rather see things improved than dumb down. Creating a class of cars with pros and cons. Not just balanced by sheer weight.

That way everyone would be happy. would'nt they ? :schwitz:

[XCNuse]

Not sure, but I still think they are fast enough as it is. I think the RB4 has always been the right speed for that class. As far as pros and cons go, thats how it was, however the RB4 was stuck in a hole because it's only faster on 2 tracks out of the ..however many we have, and so it kind of makes it useless to drive.

[Burnzoire]

it's obvious the demo users don't give a flying toss about S2, we've explained it over and over yet they ignore us and go on about their XRT's. HELLO your XRT is now capable of winning races! Before a week ago I would NEVER have seen an XRT peel away from my FXO, but now it does.

You're all crying like you've lost something. As though now you're at a disadvantage. Tell me why this is so...? Please, I aplore you to tell me how havign 20kg more is disadvantaging you when you're all racing the same car anyway? The ONLY thing to get upset about is that you're slower than the LFSW records, but if you actually read my post you'd know that problem is only a temporary one until the next physically incompatible patch. Therefore, you have NOTHING to complain about.

[Burnzoire]

So they can spend more time making demo teams, and want more features... why not give them another track while we're at it? People already race this game for too long before purchasing it.

You're right ya know... I know of no other game that allows for such a massive demo community. Check out the stats, they well outnumber PAYING customers.

Whilst I have pity for people who can't afford LFS, I also feel for the developers because they cannot afford to run a charity here.

Also, when you consider how many of the "S2 Users" are actually people using illegal hacks, the number of actual paying customers is a frighteningly small percentage of the user base.

[Shotglass]

The only thing i dont get is why restrict the best cars inclass instead of improving the ones not so good. ?

because it cannot be done in a physics compatible patch
probably not even scawen knows exactly how hes going to balance the tbo class in patch y but in x which is physics compatible the only way to do it is with handicaps

Whilst I have pity for people who can't afford LFS

this is something i dont get ... if someone can afford an inet connection to download lfs and race online and has the funds to buy a pc capable of running the game i dont get how they somehow fail at raising 24£

[Burnzoire]

well it all adds up! Certainly though, if you play the demo for a year and still say you can't afford to buy it, I call BS.

Buying S2 is the only way of proving to everyone that you're serious about LFS. If a demo user can't save up enough for S2 or if they would rather spend money on other things, then it shows they just don't care enough about LFS. So why should their voices be heard if they obviously don't care enough in the first place?

[MaximUK]

well it all adds up! Certainly though, if you play the demo for a year and still say you can't afford to buy it, I call BS.

Buying S2 is the only way of proving to everyone that you're serious about LFS. If a demo user can't save up enough for S2 or if they would rather spend money on other things, then it shows they just don't care enough about LFS. So why should their voices be heard if they obviously don't care enough in the first place?

Maybe Scawen and co just misjudged how much to give away for free? Maybe once the improved AI have been completed an automatic online ban after 3 months of demo use should be introduced? I can imagine the endless list a whining posts already:haha:

Maxim

[axus]

Also, when you consider how many of the "S2 Users" are actually people using illegal hacks, the number of actual paying customers is a frighteningly small percentage of the user base.

No, all S2 users a genuine. There's no way to get past LFS' online security and use it online without having payed and that graph only monitors online use. :)

[Mauni]

He's talking about "S2 users" :schwitz:

[wabbit]

I might make a video of a 32 car race of FXO's + RB4's + XRT's for demo users to see - it's too much fun to miss out on.

The AAL just ran a 2hr TBO race @ KY National (32 drivers). If you wanted that replay i'll upload it.

[Burnzoire]

cool, I'd enjoy the replay, but dunno if I'll have time to make a movie with all this wedding planning :( ya never know tho, I might!