A plea to the ENTIRE LFS community

[DieKolkrabe]

Hi, and I dunno if this is the right forum/section for this, but I have noticed a few things about the community that get under my skin (and I'm sure a lot of other members' skins)

They are:

1) (This is in /no/ way meant as an attack on the devs, they do a damn good job). Whenever a new patch or feature comes out, there is /always/ somebody whining 'but...why didn't they do it this way'. It is insulting to the devs. Put yourself in their position. You have just spent X amount of time developing a labour of love, only to have people who know nothing about game/program/sim/whatever design, to come along and start flaming you.

2) The use of the words 'noob', 'n00b', 'newbie' and related words as an insult (No offense to Niko/LFSn00b btw). Why do the people who were here earlier see the need to pick on the members with newer join dates. We all have an equal right to be here and give our opinion. OK, so people may not agree with it, but that is no reason to start flaming. On a related note, what /is/ the point of the flaming bannana (sp?) smiley?.

3) The insistance that the aformentioned 'noobs', 'n00bs' and 'newbies' should go play offline. As somebody (I forgot who) said in another thread. LFS is an online racing simulator. It has AI for single-player. I am willing to bet that if the experienced online racers suddenly lost their internet tomorrow and had to race offline for, say...a month, they'd change their tune and welcome people to the servers. After all, every demo racer is a potential S2 racer. And every online racer is potentially somebody you can have a great battle with

4) The constant bashing of demo racers. I just don't get WHY people (S2 licensed) see the need to flame/bash/criticise (sp?) demo racers. LFS is a racing simulator. I am not going to get involved in the quite franky, ugly, drift/grip war, but if people want to drift, they should be able to. It's like buying a box of chocolates and being told you can only open and eat them a certain way

5) The attitudes of some racers to mouse/keyboard racers. Not everyone is able to buy, or indeed, use a wheel. I know a friend in Ireland who wants to get into S2, but has no movement in his arms at all. At this point he could either:

a) Post here, or have somebody post here and get flamed/ridiculed
b) quietly go and buy S2, and get ridiculed/flamed in-game
c) Not bother and tell everyone how bad S2 is

See my point there?

7) The belief that if you have a blue flag, you MUST dive off the road/the belief that ANY contact is wrecking. These two really, really, really, irk me. A few days ago, I was on the Conedodgers UFR/XFR server at AS Cadet, I got loose coming onto the SF straight, spun into the grass, rebounded off the wall and caused somebody else to spin, and got 'what the f--k were you doing you f---g wrecker, learn to f-----g drive you w------r' Then later on after the race had been restarted, a racer was spamming 'BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER!' again and again. Wake up people...in the real world, a small tap isn't wrecking, and cussing like that wouldn't be tolerated. And how many times have you seen backmarkers throw themselves off the track to let the leaders through?

8) The belief that LFS /must/ be the most realistic simulator ever. Hint here: NKPro, Look how realistic that is, and look how that's turned out. There is a line between realism and fun, and the people who want LFS to be just like real life, let me paint you the following scenario...

It's 9pm, the kids are in bed, you have an hour before you're going to go to sleep. So you fire up LFS, input 50,000 bits of data needed to create your virtual online persona, and select your favourite server only to find you have to walk across the virtual paddock to your race trailer, which you do happily, as it's another step in realism. Just then the kids come downstairs wanting a drink and a bite to eat, so you go to type 'I'm AFK', but you can't, as chatting's been disabled due to it 'not being realistic'. So your virtual self stands there like a lemon for 5 minutes, then goes to the garage and gets in the FXR, goes through all the checks and starts the engine, only to find the door's shut, and once you get in the car, you can't get out, as it's 'not realistic'. So you stop the engine and force the car's door open, and open the garage door, only to find it drops on your character's foot, there is a wincing sound effect. You think nothing of it until you get back in the car, close the door, and try to accellerate (sp?) Nothing happens, the ignition's on, the car's in first, but it won't go. Because injury to drivers has been modelled 'because it happens in real life'. Frustrated. you go to log out, but are told 'You have to walk back to your motorhome to log out' as people don't want drivers suddenly vanishing as 'it's not realistic', so you do that, then you want to go to anther server, but you can't, as your characters are the same across all servers. So you finally log out and go to sleep.

I want /everyone/ who reads this to think long and hard about the points raised. It just really angers me that the community has gone downhill in the last 2-3 years

[niall09]

:thumb:

[mr_x]

I 100% agree with you. I've been wanting to put a post in like this for ever, but I've been somewhat biting my lip for about a year now.

This is still a great community, that is if you've been here for more than a year. But the bashing of new players, even people who post things in the wrong section on a forum. I know someone who used to not know how forums worked at all and didn't have a clue how to use them. Took me over a week to tell them how they work etc - mainly because they keep forgetting things. These people might not even know how to use the search function, or know where it is.

Just think before you bash.

[[TDRT] Solaris PL]

Great words from You DieKolkrabe... I agree with all the point you writed...

[duke_toaster]

2) The use of the words 'noob', 'n00b', 'newbie' as an insult (No offense to Niko/LFSn00b btw). Why do the people who were here earlier see the need to pick on the members with newer join dates. We all have an equal right to be here and give our opinion. OK, so people may not agree with it, but that is no reason to start flaming.

I'd like to see join dates removed like RSC removed post counts from under avatars.

On a related note, what /is/ the point of the flaming bannana (sp?) smiley?.

It comes with VB IIRC and it also used mainly for anti-cracker, not anti-new user purposes.


3) The insistance that the aformentioned 'noobs', 'n00bs' and 'newbies' should go play offline. As somebody (I forgot who) said in another thread. LFS is an online racing simulator. It has AI for single-player. I am willing to bet that if the experienced online racers suddenly lost their internet tomorrow and had to race offline for, say...a month, they'd change their tune and welcome people to the servers. After all, every demo racer is a potential S2 racer. And every online racer is potentially somebody you can have a great battle with

LFS is for online, the LFS AI isn't that fun. I hate servers that want to have PB kicking and so-on, people just want a race. I don't care if I come in the bottom half or dead last, I just enjoy racing. End of.

[/QUOTE]
7) The belief that if you have a blue flag, you MUST dive off the road/the belief that ANY contact is wrecking. These two really, really, really, irk me. A few days ago, I was on the Conedodgers UFR/XFR server at AS Cadet, ... a racer was spamming 'BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER!' again and again.

Wake up people... in the real world ... how many times have you seen backmarkers throw themselves off the track to let the leaders through?

I now have a "THERE IS ALREADY A BLUE FLAG MESSAGE, NOOB (sorry about that, I couldn't resist using that one when I wrote it)" bind for when the inevitable happens (me getting lapped). It is the responsibility of THEM to get past ME. I do NOT have to ease off on a straight or take an exeedingly wide line.

I agree with you 100%.

[joen]

I agree with you for the most part. But on a related note to your point 4, here's my

subsection 4b)
The oversensitiveness of certain groups in the LFS community (demo racers, drifters, CnR players, etc).
Ofcourse there's no need to bash someone just for being a demo racer or drifter, but these days you can hardly give any criticism to let's say a demo racer.

You're automatically labeled a demo racer hater even though you would have said the same thing if the person in question was an S2 player. That's what I call annoying and hiding in a victim role.

The "hate" towards demoracers on this forum is EXTREMELY exaggerated. Everything you say that could be interpreted in a negative way has someone going off when it's a demoracer you're adressing to.

The way I see it is that this is a very straight forward community. People around here tend to be honest and therefore outspoken. So it's really a matter of "you get out of it what you put in yourself"
People in general in the sim and on the forum are extremely helpful and generous (most helpful forum I've ever been a part of), but if you're going to be a lazy bastard, you're going to get treated as such. Come in and ask your questions/suggest your ideas in a well mannered way and you're going to get all the help and good discussions you need.

hmm, edited my post to add to my thoughts and I said exactly the same as srdsprinter :0 spooky...

[srdsprinter]

While you have some points that are correct, I must disagree with you as to this is the most "noob-friendly" game I've ever seen.

Most online games have terrible elitest communities. If you ask for advice/guidance in LFS, most likely you will find it.

If someone comes in with a crap-attitude the community will tell them that. It's sort of a self-regulating system of keeping the community up to a certain, albeit fairly low, standard. If you look at some discussions on the forum, you will see very well writen, non-attacking, and clean debates. These happen when members share respect for one another and keep open minds.

On the contrast, when someone new comes in with a Closed mind, thinking they absolutely know best, the community will call BS and the thread will usually fall to hell. I'd say this community is mostly straight-shooters, where you will get out exactly what you put in.

[franky500]

Lets try to keep this as a discussion everybody and not an argument. (im not mentioning any names).
Some points have been raised. Some I agree with. Some i dont, But lets not turn this into a flame fest please. I dont want to have to close anything prematurely.

[Captain Slow]

very good +1
i agree definately with al the points brought up there, although i wil agree the demo/noob hate point is slightly touchy as was discussed above, but personally i think every current and new user should be made to read that post and should think of it before posting.

:thumb:

[thisnameistaken]

I haven't seen evidence of most of the stuff you're ranting about.

The new version stuff I agree with - especially when Scawen's been running busy test patch threads for over a month, there's plenty of time to gripe about new features before they are included. And yes there are a few people who spend way too much of their time being overzealous crack cops, but it's a tiny minority.

The people I see getting flamed get flamed because they're clueless, don't search, make the same requests that were made last week and/or embarrass themselves in a variety of other ways. IMO forumgoers should flame these people, otherwise all forums would soon become flooded with them and be rendered unusable by those visitors who have working brains.

[XCNuse]

Never in the history of time did one single speech change how everyone lived. You may say, well what about MLK Jr's speech? Well, same with his, it doesn't take a speech to change the way the world turns, it takes practice. It is like this commercial I saw once, one person does a good thing to someone, and that next person notices it and does the same to someone else and so on it goes and finally returns back to that first person. You can't stop people from acting a certain way, they just do, it takes brainwash and years for a person to change the way they act (deep down inside). No there is no point in calling someone a noob, but sometimes people just have to get the point across after repeated tries, and while you may think it is negative, it isn't always that negative. Some people view "noobs" as well, what they consist of, the people learning LFS and joining the community, it just takes time that is all.

As for #1, sometimes we bash the devs, but like I said, sometimes the point just has to be put across and can often be hidden in the depths if it isn't thrown around enough, the devs are only 3 people, if one doesn't catch the other, chances are the others wont catch it either.

For #'s 2 and 3 I think you are confused. Rarely do I see many S2 licensed users call other people noobs unless they do it in a joking manner, but instead I see a lot of demo users call other demo users noobs and then post about it on this forum and it turns into a heap of trash.

There is no other way to do it, if one person is nice, it should spread through everyone else and a person that isn't nice will probably pick it up some day. No guarantee, but there is nothing you can do, you can't force someone to change their ways, it is their God-given right to act as they are.

But I will continue, as Kev has brought up with the test patches, people here get so worked up in the latest patch that they just spam away and don't even notice at all what other people say, and then you get one mad Scawen, and a bunch of pissed off forum-goers. And when you have not even a full handful of moderators on duty, this forum becomes a jungle. Just the other day during the release of Patch X, I bet some of you people have no clue how many new useless threads were made. Well, I will tell you what the normal number of threads are made during mid-season when a lot of people have found other things to do, threads usually come up at a rate of 5 a day. During patches, they sprout to over 20 new threads a day, that is a lot of work, and over half of which threads consist of basically the same information which can be read in the test patch thread of bugs.

You have to act yourself, not tell others what to do, they have to change their own ways.

[DieKolkrabe]

@XCNuse: I see 'noob' 'n00b' 'newbie' 'rookie' being thrown around on servers as insults all the time, it goes (something) like this

'Watch your mirrors you f=====g noob'
Or
'Noob, learn to drive'
or
'n00b, go practice offline'
etc

[LFSn00b]

I totally agree with you.

I got tapped out for no reason when i tried to give way.
I was thinking that i'd give way at the end of the T1.
Then he just taps me out, for no reason and not even a sorry? Only got "you deserved it idiot".

Yes, the LFS community is corrupting, thanks for those drivers who think they can go T1 without braking and they are the best and they can do anything.

Actually i get called a n00b here. How hard is to say Niko instead of n00b?

But i don't keep myself as a spammer, if i am, sorry, i will try to behave better.





4th month in DR! \o/

[mrodgers]

....

Every one of his points is completely valid. Who's the spammer in this thread?

I was at Westhill last night for my first patch X experience. For a while, the majority of the 10 or so racers had less total laps in LFS than I had in that one particular combo until a few other veterans showed up. I spectated until the grid was set to put myself in last starting position. I won several races passing the entire field, half of them pitting and rejoining so they were blue flagged. Only once did I accidentally tap a blue flagged car causing him to go sideways and me to spin out. I did apologize and continue on after straightening out my car. He didn't spin out completely, so he continued his race or practice (whether pitted out or not was the reason for him being blue flagged, I don't know). I didn't notice the name of the guy I tapped, so I didn't get the chance to apologize to him directly after the race. It was a tap from me trying to go inside of his unpredictable driving, then trying to back back out because I saw him not knowing how to hold a line, but I apologized with the chat bind.

The point is, what DK typed is all completely valid. I don't know what it's like in UK/European peak times, but it generally isn't like that in US times. I do see this type of behavior on occasion though.

[XCNuse]

If you do, then shame on them.
But you can't change that.

If you are an admin of that server then tell them politely not to, and if they do it repeatedly a few more times just give them warnings, and if you don't ban them immediately so that they come here and post about how some jerk banned them from a server for doing nothing, maybe they will learn.

Rejecting someone goes nowhere. That is why banning often makes situations worse.

@LFSnoob... well.. its your name, what do you expect?
No one's fault for calling you your screen name you chose.

[franky500]

@XCNuse: I see 'noob' 'n00b' 'newbie' 'rookie' being thrown around on servers as insults all the time, it goes (something) like this

'Watch your mirrors you f=====g noob'
Or
'Noob, learn to drive'
or
'n00b, go practice offline'
etc

im afraid you may wish to re-evaluate the servers that you race on. I very rarely see this in S2.

Are these insults generally directed to you or other drivers? i'm just curious because like i said. its not something that i tend to see "often" although i do tend to visit the same servers and rarely go into servers that i do not know.

[niall09]

Actually i get called a n00b here. How hard is to say Niko instead of n00b?

Well you should have thought of that before you registered on the forums :D:tilt:

[[TDRT] Solaris PL]

nope...



a post full of bs imo. Stop spamming, YOU must now stop whining because YOU are unable to drive any car in LFS in a straight line.

If you cant find the time to AT LEAST TRY to drive in LFS with some care I dont think this is the sim for you. Imo you should stop using this community as some sort spam target, go back to writing poems DK and stop using the LFS sim as a medium to spam with this senseless spam, I've seen lerts make more sense.

To finish off, you are noob:)) stop spamming MY MSN and this forum/out.

-----------------------------------------------------------

BTW @ everyone this gobshite ain't Irish, thank God.

N/C

[mr_x]

im afraid you may wish to re-evaluate the servers that you race on. I very rarely see this in S2.

Are these insults generally directed to you or other drivers? i'm just curious because like i said. its not something that i tend to see "often" although i do tend to visit the same servers and rarely go into servers that i do not know.

I jump around servers quite alot when I see a combo I like, and I very often see people saything things as quoted. It's not really a rare thing at all, it does happen alot, and I'm really sick of seeing it.

What's more frustrating is that half the time it's the accuser who's at fault, NOT the 'noob' (as they call the person they just took out).

[DieKolkrabe]

@Franky500: They are mainly directed at anyone who does anything out of the ordinary. Case in point, a few weeks back on the TE server, myself, Niall, Shaggy and Leprekaun were racing TBOs around SO Classic and Leprekaun got baulked by a driver, he said 'n00b, learn to f----g drive', I told him to calm down and he said about how the guy was in the middle of the road, I was checking his LFS stats at the time, he was a rookie, and disconnected shortly after, I haven't seen him since.

DK

[h3adbang3r]

Since patch X came out, almost every server that didnt have a spectate/kick/ban for driving backwards has been full of wreckers. Please don't tell me this is starting to become true that s2 is starting to fill with flamers, spammers, and wreckers. I can tell S2 has its share of it, but since patch X, demo racing has become a "keep away from the wreckers that are driving backwards" game. I am planning to buy S2 on Wednesday.

[Alkanphel]

Yep, i totally agree wif u. I have experienced (a few times, in fact), that people crash me out of a race whether purposely or accidentally and when i get back to them (in a polite way), i get flamed instead. I guess there's nothing much we can do about it besides ranting and complaining, cos u cant ban all wreckers forever.

Also, the crash simulation isnt quite well done... cos a small tap can cause a car to fly, spin, then eat wall. Maybe this problem can be first solved before the devs improve the AI and other stuff... hehe :D

The majority of the community is great, just a few (if i may) idiots who are wasting their 24 pounds bent on destroying a great day for many the racers. :)

[Cr!t!calDrift]

Yeah, DieKolkrabe, it's all true. But it's obvious, I guess it's something you learn to expect when you come here. On a forum where most people can be entirely mature, we can sometimes get a tad out of hand when it comes to another person's behaviour.

I'm sure your post helped but I am pretty sure it won't stop it all.

Will it stop the next demo racer for asking for more cars? Or arguing about grip vs. drift ?

Will it stop the 1337 5p34k3rz all over the place with their n00bz0rz 4 l1f3 ?

Probably not, but at least you tried.

At least you made good points. :)

[ajp71]

Post date has no relation to being a noob IMO, there are plenty of fast people who are just dangerous if you try and race them and who you really don't want to be lapped by.

I have no issue with new racers and slow racers (I'm hardly fast) so long as they can control the car and aren't dangerously slow, I'm sure most people here probably went spinning and crashing everywhere the first time they drove a sim (after inevitably picking the fastest car on what looked like the longest and hardest track), so a few laps offline until you can drive the car for a few laps without going off at a reasonable pace, and TBH it should only be a few laps is better for everyone than somebody turning up and constantly spinning and getting hit, that's not the way to get the basics right.

As for controller methods I have no issue with what people use so long as they can control the car, in general though it has to be said that the keyboard is seemingly an inappropriate control method for driving powerful cars, having said that some people have mastered it and I have even see keyboard users win races in full servers, but that is a fairly rare sight. I don't think your friend will get any slack for using the keyboard so long as he doesn't drive dangerously :)

[ajp71]

Since patch X came out, almost every server that didnt have a spectate/kick/ban for driving backwards has been full of wreckers. Please don't tell me this is starting to become true that s2 is starting to fill with flamers, spammers, and wreckers. I can tell S2 has its share of it, but since patch X, demo racing has become a "keep away from the wreckers that are driving backwards" game. I am planning to buy S2 on Wednesday.

Erm... no S2 hasn't descended to that level, I've never seen anyone driving the wrong way (other than messing about post race) and have only ever seen one or two sit and wait style wreckers in nearly two years.

[Gil07]

I totally agree with you.

I got tapped out for no reason when i tried to give way.
I was thinking that i'd give way at the end of the T1.
Then he just taps me out, for no reason and not even a sorry? Only got "you deserved it idiot".

Yes, the LFS community is corrupting, thanks for those drivers who think they can go T1 without braking and they are the best and they can do anything.

Actually i get called a n00b here. How hard is to say Niko instead of n00b?

But i don't keep myself as a spammer, if i am, sorry, i will try to behave better.





4th month in DR! \o/

Spammer n00b :D

Seriously, you're absolutely right. I am a slow driver and I know it, but that doesn't give people the right to crash into me. I hate it when someone is trying to pass you in an impossible place, even when I'm being lapped. And don't get me started on people who go full throttle into t1 :pillepall

Sure, I make mistakes, lots of them actually, but I try to race fairly and cleanly, and most of the times I wait for anyone I spun out to overtake me again, instead of just saying sorry and running away.

[samforey12345]

Yes i agree.. got a replay of people swearing cussing even tho the person acidentally did it, and even him saying sorry etc, another thing it was quitew funny when i got blue flagged and i had to let 20 od people past.:razz:

[birder]

2) The use of the words 'noob',

3) 'noobs', should go play offline.

7) I was on the Conedodgers UFR/XFR server at AS Cadet, and got 'what the f--k were you doing you f---g wrecker, learn to f-----g drive you w------r'


Agree with most but

2) google -search "define: noob"

Definitions of noob on the Web:

A newbie (also spelled noob, newb, or n00b in the leetspeak of internet culture) is a to a particular field, the term being commonly used on the internet, where it might refer to new users of a game, a newsgroup, the World Wide Web itself, or an operating system.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noob (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=X&start=8&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noob&usg=AFQjCNG-cVADVQeSA9PXm1061u5aYD-aXw)Noob is just a word, but its a real word that we all are well aware what it refers to.

3) Yes and No.

25 fast racers and 7 noobs can be a disaster. Condodgers seems to get all the new licence S2 drivers as they all want to race the FZR straight away. However we have many drivers who help and have helped new drivers and we are proud of that.

Lotesdelere spends hours helping people who are new

7) Patch X lapper can out this morning and is now fitted on all our servers and should they start typing the f word and many others, users are kicked.

Many of our drivers and visitors are young and we should not swear.

However I find it rather funny to see a top driver in the lead say "f*** i that was close" and be kicked, only to come back and say "who F***ing kicked me"

[Jakg]

Actually i get called a n00b here. How hard is to say Niko instead of n00b? erm, i really hope you realise 95% of that is just in jest.

I do feel a bit guilty now, as i always refer to you as "n00b", i just wish you'd said something earlier Niko.

From now on feel free to call me Jakq :P

[DieKolkrabe]

That was off-topic Harjun

Anyway, back on topic:

@birder: I keep reading these 'I got banned from Redline Racing' threads/posts, and many of the drivers are new, it's not just your excellent servers, it seems to be that the big servers with the fast cars attract the new rookies like moths to a flame.

DK

[LFSn00b]

erm, i really hope you realise 95% of that is just in jest.

I do feel a bit guilty now, as i always refer to you as "n00b", i just wish you'd said something earlier Niko.

From now on feel free to call me Jakq :Pok Jakgqgqgqgqgqgqgqgqg :)

[tristancliffe]

1) Whenever a new patch or feature comes out, there is /always/ somebody whining 'but...why didn't they do it this way'. It is insulting to the devs. Put yourself in their position. You have just spent X amount of time developing a labour of love, only to have people who know nothing about game/program/sim/whatever design, to come along and start flaming you.Agreed, if they don't like it, there are other sims, and they can always try to make their own sim themselves. Scavierge are usually right in the long run, and we still like LFS despite a few choices that, at the time, we didn't think were right...
2) The use of the words 'noob', 'n00b', 'newbie' and related words as an insult (No offense to Niko/LFSn00b btw). Why do the people who were here earlier see the need to pick on the members with newer join dates. We all have an equal right to be here and give our opinion. OK, so people may not agree with it, but that is no reason to start flaming. On a related note, what /is/ the point of the flaming bannana (sp?) smiley?.Newbie isn't a term of offence - it's because they are new here. Newbie. See. Newbies rarely get called noob. I'd call Herki a noob if he asked how to change the colour of his car, because he's been here a long time and should know better. I don't see much misuse of the terms.
3) The insistance that the aformentioned 'noobs', 'n00bs' and 'newbies' should go play offline. As somebody (I forgot who) said in another thread. LFS is an online racing simulator. It has AI for single-player. I am willing to bet that if the experienced online racers suddenly lost their internet tomorrow and had to race offline for, say...a month, they'd change their tune and welcome people to the servers. After all, every demo racer is a potential S2 racer. And every online racer is potentially somebody you can have a great battle withBut newbies might be, frankly, dangerous online at first, and so should practice either offline or on quiet servers. Noobs can be dangerous at any time (which is why we might be calling them noobs), and they should attempt to improve themselves before mixing much with online players. As we are driving against real people, it matters more if you take someone out - you're not just ruining an AI's race, but a fellow persons. Practicing offline might just be doing 10 laps of a given car/track combo before joining in, so they have more of an idea of braking points and the racing line etc.
4) The constant bashing of demo racers. I just don't get WHY people (S2 licensed) see the need to flame/bash/criticise (sp?) demo racers. LFS is a racing simulator. I am not going to get involved in the quite franky, ugly, drift/grip war, but if people want to drift, they should be able to. It's like buying a box of chocolates and being told you can only open and eat them a certain wayI don't think many people mind demo users. Not many people like demo users who use or ask for cracks. A minority have tarnished the name for the majority. It happens. Get over it. By all means drift, cruise, crash etc. But don't do it on racing servers. I don't go to drift servers to show them the racing line, and I don't want people skidding all over the place trying to drift when I'm trying to race. Keep it separate (like in reality - drifting days, track days, racing meets) and we'll be happy. Also, some of us like to make sure that wannabe drifters who think drifting is either fast or racing are told, in no uncertain terms, that they are wrong.
5) The attitudes of some racers to mouse/keyboard racers. Not everyone is able to buy, or indeed, use a wheel. I know a friend in Ireland who wants to get into S2, but has no movement in his arms at all. At this point he could either:

a) Post here, or have somebody post here and get flamed/ridiculed
b) quietly go and buy S2, and get ridiculed/flamed in-game
c) Not bother and tell everyone how bad S2 is

See my point there?
I don't think I've ever seen this! If people ask how to go faster with a mouse or a keyboard only setup, then getting a wheel is good advice. But I've heard of someone who uses a mini-joystick thing and drives using his tongue (and wasn't that slow either!), so I don't think we 'look down' on other controller options.
7) The belief that if you have a blue flag, you MUST dive off the road/the belief that ANY contact is wrecking. These two really, really, really, irk me. A few days ago, I was on the Conedodgers UFR/XFR server at AS Cadet, I got loose coming onto the SF straight, spun into the grass, rebounded off the wall and caused somebody else to spin, and got 'what the f--k were you doing you f---g wrecker, learn to f-----g drive you w------r' Then later on after the race had been restarted, a racer was spamming 'BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER!' again and again. Wake up people...in the real world, a small tap isn't wrecking, and cussing like that wouldn't be tolerated. And how many times have you seen backmarkers throw themselves off the track to let the leaders through?We had this discussion twice recently, and many many times. Only idiots and bad drivers use blue flag messages. Any half-decent racing driver (and I'm not talking about the ability to go fast on a clear lap, which isn't racing) doesn't need to, and will lose almost no time passing anyone. Just laugh at them, and let them get on with being a crap driver.
8) The belief that LFS /must/ be the most realistic simulator ever. Hint here: NKPro, Look how realistic that is, and look how that's turned out. There is a line between realism and fun, and the people who want LFS to be just like real life, let me paint you the following scenario...Whilst nKP, from a driving point of view, is LFS's closest rival, to suggest it's that realistic is silly. It isn't. It's no better than LFS overall. It does a few things better, and a few things worse than LFS, but it mostly lacks the feel and nervousness of LFS (which is realistic). (Note: The FOX is so overtyred now that it isn't realistic, and is why it is the easiest car in LFS at the moment).
It's 9pm, the kids are in bed, you have an hour before you're going to go to sleep. So you fire up LFS, input 50,000 bits of data needed to create your virtual online persona, and select your favourite server only to find you have to walk across the virtual paddock to your race trailer, which you do happily, as it's another step in realism. Just then the kids come downstairs wanting a drink and a bite to eat, so you go to type 'I'm AFK', but you can't, as chatting's been disabled due to it 'not being realistic'. So your virtual self stands there like a lemon for 5 minutes, then goes to the garage and gets in the FXR, goes through all the checks and starts the engine, only to find the door's shut, and once you get in the car, you can't get out, as it's 'not realistic'. So you stop the engine and force the car's door open, and open the garage door, only to find it drops on your character's foot, there is a wincing sound effect. You think nothing of it until you get back in the car, close the door, and try to accellerate (sp?) Nothing happens, the ignition's on, the car's in first, but it won't go. Because injury to drivers has been modelled 'because it happens in real life'. Frustrated. you go to log out, but are told 'You have to walk back to your motorhome to log out' as people don't want drivers suddenly vanishing as 'it's not realistic', so you do that, then you want to go to anther server, but you can't, as your characters are the same across all servers. So you finally log out and go to sleep.That would just be silly. In FarCry you don't have to get dressed in the morning. We know LFS isn't realistic in so much as you don't have a virtual job to earn the virtual money to buy a virtual car etc... But we'd quite like that from the moment you magically appear in your car to the moment you magically leave it that it was as realistic as possible from a driving point of view. Not many racing drivers can press T and chat to the person they've just tapped. Not many drivers have a little map. Not many drivers can reset their damaged car. LFS is heading down this route, and that's good. But you're example is just silliness.
I want /everyone/ who reads this to think long and hard about the points raised. It just really angers me that the community has gone downhill in the last 2-3 yearsThe reason it's gone 'downhill' is because there are more and more people who play LFS, but aren't (strictly) part of the community. They want this/that, but aren't actually doing anything in the community to help, be it assisting newbies, chatting to everyone, making textures, doing renders, etc etc. Two or three years ago, LFS was much more of a niche product, and as such everyone knew everyone else, and we all had this amazing community. Now I go online and see hundreds of people I've never heard of, and there are a million teams, 999,800 of which are utterly rubbish and a waste of a team name. That's what's 'wrong' with the community - size, pure and simple. And that's not a fault of the community, but a fact of a much larger group of people...

[NotAnIllusion]

1) Fact of life, complaining about it isn't going to change it. Also, some of the criticisms are apt, even if blunt and timed wrongly.

2) 'Newbie' is not an insult, it's a politically correct way of calling someone a noob. There are much worse insults one can come up with to really insult someone. As annoying as it may be, not letting it get to you is the best way to fight it.

3) There are many, many cases when such a call is actually warranted. There's a difference in taking it easy ito brake points and insisting on driving in the middle of a pack when they can't keep the car on the road for a single lap, even if there's nobody else pressuring them.

4) Demo racer bashing has nothing to do with drifting, which is a case on its own regardless of licence status. Demo racers who can't be bothered to put in the effort to express themselves properly, and feel they are obliged to demand more content are justifiably flamed. Crying for new content and updates as a demo racer appears selfish because it's more for nothing, I care not for selfish, arrogant people.

5) I disagree, it may eventually turn into a flamefest but initially he will get constructive responses from the several knowledgeable people. I'd foresee that it would turn nasty when someone would make a comment how they were 'surprised' nobody's insulted anyone yet.

6??

7) Tough poo, tbh. No offence to ConeDodgers, but their servers are not ones one should base generalisations on. Those who spam blue flag will continue to do so until it's not permitted. They aren't going to 'see the light' because they don't want to. Go to another server where such is not tolerated.

8) Dude, srsly. Take a break, have a holiday, take a chill pill, take the dog for a walk w/e. Now you really are just whining.

The LFS community has not gone downhill. The community has grown (= more idiots around) and it has kept its intergrity admirably. Basing general consensus on actions of individuals you don't like is pointless (and by that I mean that it's human nature to take more notice of things we don't like than things that we agree with and take for granted). Instead of looking at how 'bad' the community is, look at how good it is. Free licences flying left right and centre, support given to the devs in patch testing, the addon programmers are still updating their software, UKCT has made a masssssssssssive contribution, yadda yadda etc etc.

It's people who question and undermine the community by posting about how bad the community is that really make it annoying sometimes. Oh, and, if this community was as bad as you make it look, I dare say this thread would look much worse than it is.

[Glenn67]

The reason it's gone 'downhill' is because there are more and more people who play LFS, but aren't (strictly) part of the community. They want this/that, but aren't actually doing anything in the community to help, be it assisting newbies, chatting to everyone, making textures, doing renders, etc etc. Two or three years ago, LFS was much more of a niche product, and as such everyone knew everyone else, and we all had this amazing community. Now I go online and see hundreds of people I've never heard of, and there are a million teams, 999,800 of which are utterly rubbish and a waste of a team name. That's what's 'wrong' with the community - size, pure and simple. And that's not a fault of the community, but a fact of a much larger group of people...

Very true. I grew up in a small country town 1,000 or so people everyone knew everyone and because we were so isolated we all helped each other and had respect for one another. Later we moved to the city and while most were friendly you could live next door to people for 10 years and not know their names :shrug: the anonymity of city life also means that it is much more likely people will act like jerks towards each other :x in a small country town you couldn't get away with it! :D

[DieKolkrabe]

@NotAnIllusion: About point 1, 'some of those criticisms are apt'. I disagree. If you've spent, for example, 5 years developing a new type of office copier and 95 out of 100 people like it, but 5 people complain about the colour of the light, for instance, would you say that their criticisms are warranted?

@tristan: My point about offline practice was/is that the newbies/rookies 99% of the time get told to go and practice/spend their virtual racing careers offline. I know that you can customise the AI's names and colours, but it gets boring, very quickly. My NKP point was the hyped realistic features, like waiting 25 minutes to change a tyre and a wing in the F3 car. I don't mind the fact that LFS is getting more realistic, and I like it. But there has to be a tradeoff between realism and enjoyment, which was the point of my story, The constant calls for realism are all very well and good, but there's only so much you can simulate.

Also, the FOX is easy?

DK

[banshee56]

1) (This is in /no/ way meant as an attack on the devs, they do a damn good job). Whenever a new patch or feature comes out, there is /always/ somebody whining 'but...why didn't they do it this way'. It is insulting to the devs. Put yourself in their position. You have just spent X amount of time developing a labour of love, only to have people who know nothing about game/program/sim/whatever design, to come along and start flaming you.
Think of all those comments this way: If you didn't really give a damn about the quality and continued development of the sim, would you comment? The vast majority of the people that come onto these forums have invested time into being in this community. Think about it, we've taken time from our personal lives to have a second online life, if you will, and we all care about watching it develop into the best that it can be. I've been around for over 3 years, and have personally enjoyed the ride, so I thank the devs for all their hard work. But, when I find something that I don't think works right or needs improved, I will make my opinion known in a respectful manner, hoping that the devs read my comments and take from them constructive information that will only make the sim better.



2) The use of the words 'noob', 'n00b', 'newbie' and related words as an insult (No offense to Niko/LFSn00b btw). Why do the people who were here earlier see the need to pick on the members with newer join dates. We all have an equal right to be here and give our opinion. OK, so people may not agree with it, but that is no reason to start flaming. On a related note, what /is/ the point of the flaming bannana (sp?) smiley?.
Agreed.....the use of the "noob" related words are not really beneficial to anyone. I was, as we all were, a n00b at one point, and I am really appreciative to the guys like CWMAX, Operator0, Kirves, CheeseySlug, Forbin, and others that helped me with advice and setups in my quest to get better. Because of that, I've tried (admittedly not always successfully) to be mindful of my comments to inexperienced drivers.



4) The constant bashing of demo racers. I just don't get WHY people (S2 licensed) see the need to flame/bash/criticise (sp?) demo racers. LFS is a racing simulator. I am not going to get involved in the quite franky, ugly, drift/grip war, but if people want to drift, they should be able to. It's like buying a box of chocolates and being told you can only open and eat them a certain way
Demo racers are just that, demo racers. I personally don't have a problem with a person that uses the demo portion as a way learn about the game and learn how to drive in the game. I do, however, have a problem with demo racers that like to form teams and leagues. Demo is just that, a demonstration of what the sim can be, not an arena for you to play online for free and never reward the developers that have risked their livelihood's to develop their passion for sim-racing. If you race in demo, and like it, buy a license, and pay your respects to the devs.


5) The attitudes of some racers to mouse/keyboard racers. Not everyone is able to buy, or indeed, use a wheel. I know a friend in Ireland who wants to get into S2, but has no movement in his arms at all. At this point he could either:

a) Post here, or have somebody post here and get flamed/ridiculed
b) quietly go and buy S2, and get ridiculed/flamed in-game
c) Not bother and tell everyone how bad S2 is

See my point there?
To be honest with you, I don't really see your point about your friend. I'm sorry he can't be involved in the traditional sense. Regarding the mouse/keyboard racers....yes, I know it's difficult to get a proper controller. But this is a racing simulator and you really should try to get a wheel (any wheel, really) so that you can control the car in a more precise manner. Yeah, yeah, I know...there are many quality kb/mouse drivers out there. More power to you if you can do it well! But, I'm sorry, the vast majority of keyboard and mouse drivers certainly can't control a car as well as someone with more suited controller, and it's frustrating to get wrecked by someone using a keyboard.



8) The belief that LFS /must/ be the most realistic simulator ever. Hint here: NKPro, Look how realistic that is, and look how that's turned out. There is a line between realism and fun, and the people who want LFS to be just like real life, let me paint you the following scenario...
Umm...that scenario is really just rediculous. The thought that this needs to be "the most realistic" simulator is in regards to the physics and how races work. I don't really care whether we start qualifying from the garage, or right on the track. Sure, starting from the garage adds to the immersion, but does it really add anything to the racing? No. We want the cars to handle as close to real life as possible so that we can enjoy doing something online that only a few of us have experienced in real life.

[ATC Quicksilver]

I agree with most of the issues raised in original post, but I don't think its a widespread problem. As always its the vocal minority that stand out, while the quiet majority are not noticed. The only time I will remove a new person from a server is if they have no control at all, most of the time I will try to help them lap without crashing which is quite easy to do. But sometimes people either don't want to learn, or just don't improve and ruin the race for everyone, so they have to be asked to leave and learn the car offline.

[Bob Smith]

I've stripped a fem posts out from this thread, please don't bring that line of conversation up again.

[tristancliffe]

@tristan: My point about offline practice was/is that the newbies/rookies 99% of the time get told to go and practice/spend their virtual racing careers offline. I know that you can customise the AI's names and colours, but it gets boring, very quickly. My NKP point was the hyped realistic features, like waiting 25 minutes to change a tyre and a wing in the F3 car. I don't mind the fact that LFS is getting more realistic, and I like it. But there has to be a tradeoff between realism and enjoyment, which was the point of my story, The constant calls for realism are all very well and good, but there's only so much you can simulate.

Also, the FOX is easy?

DK

Fair point. I do like the idea of a hardcore mode (a la nKP), but not on 'pick and play' servers where I want a quick three races in half an hour, and I don't want the abilility to just quit and rejoin to fix the car immediately (which you can in nkP). There does have to be a trade off, but I think there is still scope to make LFS more realistic, and a LOT more potential for league races.

Yes, the FOX is easy. Lots of grip, not much power. By far the easiest car in LFS. As such I don't bother driving it, preferring the FO8, which feels like the FOX should (imo).

[Zachary Zoomy]

WOW. a must read for all players

[Greboth]

After a quick scan I saw some references to this. Bear in mind this is only my opinion but noob is usually a derogatory term to insult someone who is making or someone who has made a mistake. Such as not braking early enough for t1 and taking out half the cars or small taps. Whereas newbie is simply the term for someone new, like rookie is also.

Off topic - @Niko, your called Niko but your still a n00b too :razz::D

[Fischfix]

i agree with most of the points.

[ATC Quicksilver]

Anyone who calls the FOX easy obviously has not driven it on the edge, or anywhere near its limits. Also even if it is easy to drive, its by no means easy to race. I find it more challenging that the GTR class, where on public servers I seem to finish in the top 3 or 5 without any effort, just by staying on the track :shrug:

Anyway back on topic, I think its fine to go slowly online, just so long as you can actually stay on the track and not cause pile ups.

[malinkie]

Finally! I think a post like this has been a long time coming.

[sinbad]

1. It's a forum. 90% of what is written here is about LFS, and people express their opinions, good and bad. I doubt the devs find that insulting, if they think someone's talking crap, then they'll pay no attention.

2. Agreed, it's a stupid "word", but most people here only use it in fun towards people they know, I see very little real name calling.

3. I would like you to point me to where people are doing that frequently enough for you to say it like everybody does it to every new racer. I've seen it a few times, but I do actually think it's good advice to give sometimes.

4. Agreed, but again, not everyone does it, you're S2 licensed - do you do it?

5. Again, I see very little of that. Some people just think a wheel is the best way to play and want everyone else to try it. The days of the old kb vs. wheel debates are long gone, nowadays most people don't care a bit. Also, not everybody playing LFS is 100% able bodied, there is no reason to assume your friend would not be welcomed.

7. Did you have to drag that in from the other thread(s)? Everybody has been over this time and again.

8. People have an opinion that might differ from yours so you complain about it? I refer you to my answer number 1.

[tristancliffe]

Anyone who calls the FOX easy obviously has not driven it on the edge, or anywhere near its limits. Also even if it is easy to drive, its by no means easy to race. I find it more challenging that the GTR class, where on public servers I seem to finish in the top 3 or 5 without any effort, just by staying on the track :shrug:

Just had a quick blast on AS Club with Redline. Yup, definately the easiest car to drive. I'm not claiming it's so easy that I hold WRs in it (there is still a lot of skill in getting the car to go REALLY fast), but I'd recommend every newbie learnt in it, because it's so ridiculously easy to drive 'on the pace'.

Prior to the Sauber, it was much harder (though still easier to be quick in that the UF1 or the FO8).

And I don't think I'm slow. Edit: Checking LFSW shows we're about the same speed, perhaps you are about 0.2 up on me. But on a lot of the tracks we either haven't both driven a combo, or one of us has a pb set with pre-BF1 tyres. So you can't really say I'm not driving it as fast as you, because we are very comparable

[DieKolkrabe]

One more point that really, really angers me.

The whole 'buy a license' point. Not everybody can afford or wants to buy a license. Every time a demo racer asks a question, the reply is 'buy s2'. Put yourself in a demo racer's position, then think before you post.

DK

[Cr!t!calDrift]

ZOMG A DEMO RACER POSTED IN THIS THREAD!

BUY S2~!

Oh and i disagree with that post, DieKolkrabe

[dj-fluxsa]

i agree well said scott:thumb:

[zeugnimod]

I couldnt disagree more with almost all of your points except maybe 1) and 8) in parts. Reasons for that were already given in many posts in this thread. The best one is Stu's on page one IMO.

Can you show at least 10 recent examples for your points 2), 4) and 5)?

I highly doubt that.

[11SuLLy11]

Agree with alot of them points,but at the end of the day everyone is open to an opionion,one thing I don't like is if your not an "OLD TIMER" your not really respected,kinda bugs me:scratchch

[joen]

Every time a demo racer asks a question, the reply is 'buy s2'

Again, extremely exaggerated. The poor poor demoracers. It's getting tiresome now.

Example: If a demo racer comes on the forum complaining about the high amount of wreckers, it is a good advice to recommend getting a license.

Another example: If a demo racers comes on the forum saying he would like to drive more cars in LFS, it then is...right.

A challenge: as you say it happens everytime I challenge you to direct me to 10 occasions where this has happened and was totally uncalled for. If it happens that much it shouldn't be hard to do.

[DieKolkrabe]

@whoever mentioned 10 examples...

The point about 'noob', 'n00b', etc, I don't have to list. Just go to any popular server and wait.

Point 3: Again, go to a popular server and wait for a newly licensed racer to log in, say 'hi, I'm new to S2', he/she will be met with a barrage of 'go practice offline n00b' messages and if he/she does get out on track, they will be treated very very harshly

Point 5: The posts/debates about wheel only control.

@sully: Agreed. join dates mean nothing. I agree with Duke_toaster, I wish they could be removed

DK

[Tigershark]

Alot of the behaviour mentioned in this thread is even more proof of the theory linked to in my signature.

It's unfortunate, but it's something every online community faces.

[zeugnimod]

The point about 'noob', 'n00b', etc, I don't have to list. Just go to any popular server and wait.

Yes, there might be a few people who call others "noobs" frequently but you dont really want to say that the majority of drivers does that? Its certainly not as bad as you make it seem to be.

Point 3: Again, go to a popular server and wait for a newly licensed racer to log in, say 'hi, I'm new to S2', he/she will be met with a barrage of 'go practice offline n00b' messages and if he/she does get out on track, they will be treated very very harshly

Sorry, this is simply not true. On the contrary, if a new driver joins a server and states that he is new there most certainly will be drivers who watch him and give him advice on racing lines and braking points. I have seen that many times and also done it myself.

Point 5: The posts/debates about wheel only control.

Have you read them or only looked at the thread title? IF you read them you would know that there were more people in these threads who defended mouse and keyboard driving than people who wanted it to be banned.

[Cr!t!calDrift]

Again, extremely exaggerated. The poor poor demoracers. It's getting tiresome now.

Example: If a demo racer comes on the forum complaining about the high amount of wreckers, it is a good advice to recommend getting a license.

Another example: If a demo racers comes on the forum saying he would like to drive more cars in LFS, it then is...right.

A challenge: as you say it happens everytime I challenge you to direct me to 10 occasions where this has happened and was totally uncalled for. If it happens that much it shouldn't be hard to do.

But constantly people are complaining about how demo is a CRASH, SMASH, DEMOLITION DERBY CRAZY DISRESPECTFUL REALM

When really it's not that bad. I played on s2 today and people complained about things like that at the stupidest times. Then when I went on demo people just made a few race laps, and me and another chap helped someone with their video card problems regarding LFS.

And. The day before I was given s2:

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/6851/s2abusermx7.png


And I know I shouldn't bias all s2 users to being like this, but it's more prevalent than it's accounted for.

Speaking of which I gotta get an avatar real soon.:schwitz:

[Tigershark]

Yes, there might be a few people who call others "noobs" frequently but you dont really want to say that the majority of drivers does that? Its certainly not as bad as you make it seem to be.
One of the biggest problems here is that the people that do resort to language like this are the vocal minority. Emphasis on vocal.

The only thing that can change this behaviour is normal, well meaning players who don't normally engage in conversations going on to speak up and say "That's enough, I will not accept this kind of childish behaviour."

The level of maturity on a lot of public servers is putting people off of playing them, and that's a terrible shame. There is a job here for server admins as well, they too should not tolerate this behaviour. The lol-rofl internet attitude is really a terrible thing.

[Cr!t!calDrift]

Again, extremely exaggerated. The poor poor demoracers. It's getting tiresome now.

Example: If a demo racer comes on the forum complaining about the high amount of wreckers, it is a good advice to recommend getting a license.

Another example: If a demo racers comes on the forum saying he would like to drive more cars in LFS, it then is...right.

A challenge: as you say it happens everytime I challenge you to direct me to 10 occasions where this has happened and was totally uncalled for. If it happens that much it shouldn't be hard to do.

Pfft.

I've experienced it, tell me otherwise. Check my post history.

One of the biggest problems here is that the people that do resort to language like this are the vocal minority. Emphasis on vocal.

The only thing that can change this behaviour is normal, well meaning players who don't normally engage in conversations going on to speak up and say "That's enough, I will not accept this kind of childish behaviour."

The level of maturity on a lot of public servers is putting people off of playing them, and that's a terrible shame. There is a job here for server admins as well, they too should not tolerate this behaviour. The lol-rofl internet attitude is really a terrible thing.

It's not really a big problem, it's just annoying.

Oh and The only thing that can change this behaviour is normal, well meaning players who don't normally engage in conversations going on to speak up and say "That's enough, I will not accept this kind of childish behaviour."


Won't solve it.

What WILL solve it is:


‏‏‏‏‏‏. . .

Get it? If we all shut up, maybe it will get quiet :scratchch

[11SuLLy11]

It entirely depends when the slang "LOL"-"ROFL" is used,when used for humour within the group I feel its tolerated,but when to intimidate someone it's wrong,bahh humour can't kill:)

[11SuLLy11]

For the best of this,I think this thread should get closed before a forum war breaks out,we get the point by now,everyone who plays LFS is a jerk who call people "noobs" and LOL at people,get over it:schwitz:

[joen]

Pfft.
I've experienced it, tell me otherwise. Check my post history.


Well, I asked DK to give 10 examples since he's saying it happens so often. He has a point to prove, so that does not mean I'm going to search for examples myself.

I feel DK is taking some bad experiences, putting them under a magnifying glass and claiming this is the way it goes all the time. Plus, exaggerating is one of his specialties.


And. The day before I was given s2:

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/6851/s2abusermx7.png

So you met an asshole. Does this prove anything about the community in general? Everybody can go on telling about their own bad experience and how some guy in some race did something to them and wasn't nice, but it has nothing to do with being a community problem. There's idiots everywhere in real life, everywhere online, so they are in LFS too. Plus, on some server types I think you run into them more often, but I'm probably stepping on someone's toe again now.


Point 3: Again, go to a popular server and wait for a newly licensed racer to log in, say 'hi, I'm new to S2', he/she will be met with a barrage of 'go practice offline n00b' messages and if he/she does get out on track, they will be treated very very harshly

So, at this point they just say hi, don't get into the race yet and already getting the "go practice offline noob"? And the way you describe this, it happens like this all the time? That's weird because I have NEVER experienced this.

[anik360]

Hi, and I dunno if this is the right forum/section for this, but I have noticed a few things about the community that get under my skin (and I'm sure a lot of other members' skins)

They are:

1) (This is in /no/ way meant as an attack on the devs, they do a damn good job). Whenever a new patch or feature comes out, there is /always/ somebody whining 'but...why didn't they do it this way'. It is insulting to the devs. Put yourself in their position. You have just spent X amount of time developing a labour of love, only to have people who know nothing about game/program/sim/whatever design, to come along and start flaming you.

2) The use of the words 'noob', 'n00b', 'newbie' and related words as an insult (No offense to Niko/LFSn00b btw). Why do the people who were here earlier see the need to pick on the members with newer join dates. We all have an equal right to be here and give our opinion. OK, so people may not agree with it, but that is no reason to start flaming. On a related note, what /is/ the point of the flaming bannana (sp?) smiley?.

3) The insistance that the aformentioned 'noobs', 'n00bs' and 'newbies' should go play offline. As somebody (I forgot who) said in another thread. LFS is an online racing simulator. It has AI for single-player. I am willing to bet that if the experienced online racers suddenly lost their internet tomorrow and had to race offline for, say...a month, they'd change their tune and welcome people to the servers. After all, every demo racer is a potential S2 racer. And every online racer is potentially somebody you can have a great battle with

4) The constant bashing of demo racers. I just don't get WHY people (S2 licensed) see the need to flame/bash/criticise (sp?) demo racers. LFS is a racing simulator. I am not going to get involved in the quite franky, ugly, drift/grip war, but if people want to drift, they should be able to. It's like buying a box of chocolates and being told you can only open and eat them a certain way

5) The attitudes of some racers to mouse/keyboard racers. Not everyone is able to buy, or indeed, use a wheel. I know a friend in Ireland who wants to get into S2, but has no movement in his arms at all. At this point he could either:

a) Post here, or have somebody post here and get flamed/ridiculed
b) quietly go and buy S2, and get ridiculed/flamed in-game
c) Not bother and tell everyone how bad S2 is

See my point there?

7) The belief that if you have a blue flag, you MUST dive off the road/the belief that ANY contact is wrecking. These two really, really, really, irk me. A few days ago, I was on the Conedodgers UFR/XFR server at AS Cadet, I got loose coming onto the SF straight, spun into the grass, rebounded off the wall and caused somebody else to spin, and got 'what the f--k were you doing you f---g wrecker, learn to f-----g drive you w------r' Then later on after the race had been restarted, a racer was spamming 'BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER! BLUE FLAG! MOVE OVER!' again and again. Wake up people...in the real world, a small tap isn't wrecking, and cussing like that wouldn't be tolerated. And how many times have you seen backmarkers throw themselves off the track to let the leaders through?

8) The belief that LFS /must/ be the most realistic simulator ever. Hint here: NKPro, Look how realistic that is, and look how that's turned out. There is a line between realism and fun, and the people who want LFS to be just like real life, let me paint you the following scenario...

It's 9pm, the kids are in bed, you have an hour before you're going to go to sleep. So you fire up LFS, input 50,000 bits of data needed to create your virtual online persona, and select your favourite server only to find you have to walk across the virtual paddock to your race trailer, which you do happily, as it's another step in realism. Just then the kids come downstairs wanting a drink and a bite to eat, so you go to type 'I'm AFK', but you can't, as chatting's been disabled due to it 'not being realistic'. So your virtual self stands there like a lemon for 5 minutes, then goes to the garage and gets in the FXR, goes through all the checks and starts the engine, only to find the door's shut, and once you get in the car, you can't get out, as it's 'not realistic'. So you stop the engine and force the car's door open, and open the garage door, only to find it drops on your character's foot, there is a wincing sound effect. You think nothing of it until you get back in the car, close the door, and try to accellerate (sp?) Nothing happens, the ignition's on, the car's in first, but it won't go. Because injury to drivers has been modelled 'because it happens in real life'. Frustrated. you go to log out, but are told 'You have to walk back to your motorhome to log out' as people don't want drivers suddenly vanishing as 'it's not realistic', so you do that, then you want to go to anther server, but you can't, as your characters are the same across all servers. So you finally log out and go to sleep.

I want /everyone/ who reads this to think long and hard about the points raised. It just really angers me that the community has gone downhill in the last 2-3 years

Oh i wish everybody were sensible like you man I would love the LFs community more than anything :nod::nod::thumbsup:

[franky500]

cleaned up some posts from this thread. Lets not go silly please.

[tristancliffe]

For the best of this,I think this thread should get closed before a forum war breaks out,we get the point by now,everyone who plays LFS is a jerk who call people "noobs" and LOL at people,get over it:schwitz:

It entirely depends when the slang "LOL"-"ROFL" is used,when used for humour within the group I feel its tolerated,but when to intimidate someone it's wrong,bahh humour can't kill:)

Agree with alot of them points,but at the end of the day everyone is open to an opionion,one thing I don't like is if your not an "OLD TIMER" your not really respected,kinda bugs me:scratchch

Rubbish. We will respect anyone who turns up with the right attitude and a degree of sense. You find simple concepts difficult to grasp, ask very very simple (noobish) questions, write like a 6 year old, and try to join in in discussions you are not mentally capable of adding to. In those situations, would YOU respect yourself? Then how can you expect several thousand other people to either?

Note: This post, and the accusations within, do not necessarily apply to the quoted person. The 'you' is a generic you.

[DieKolkrabe]

@joen: Where exactly is exaggerating 'one of my specialties'? Name 10 examples? I can counter them

@tristan: That has just proven the point about attacking people.

DK

[Tigershark]

Rubbish. We will respect anyone who turns up with the right attitude and a degree of sense.
Should have stopped there, the rest of your post just goes to prove the point.

"Mentally capable"? Really uncalled for and not exactly setting a good example.

[DieKolkrabe]

@Tigershark: It worries and alarms me that people on the forum have to resort to attacking each other in threads.

@mods/devs: Can we please remove join dates and post counts from the forum? They do nothing but cause strife

DK

[joen]

@joen: Where exactly is exaggerating 'one of my specialties'?
You blow things out of proportion. If you don´t realise that yourself or don´t have any proof of the things you mention so often as you claim then there is nothing I can say that would be able to convince you really.
This thread is getting a bit silly imo. I guess some people are just overly sensitive.

[DieKolkrabe]

@joen: Examples?

DK

[tristancliffe]

It's not attacking, it's answer his question about why people (but he meant him) aren't respected. A few home truths. Sometimes, the truth hurts. But I'm not a liberal, so I don't mind telling people.

[Glenn67]

Rubbish. We will respect anyone who turns up with the right attitude and a degree of sense. You find simple concepts difficult to grasp, ask very very simple (noobish) questions, write like a 6 year old, and try to join in in discussions you are not mentally capable of adding to. In those situations, would YOU respect yourself? Then how can you expect several thousand other people to either?

Note: This post, and the accusations within, do not necessarily apply to the quoted person. The 'you' is a generic you.

LOL Tristian you should know now that sarcasm doesn't go down well with an international audience :razz:

[sinbad]

@joen: Examples?

DK

Give some of examples to back up your claims too. I don't see what gives you the right to accuse everybody (therefore me) of doing certain things, without producing a shred of evidence, or even specific examples.

If I had my cynic hat on, I'd say this thread is pointless, useless, sensationalist, melodramatic and unnecessary.

[DieKolkrabe]

@sinbad: If you have read through this thread, you would have seen eaxmples. I am no McCarthy.

DK

[CSU1]

1) Fact of life, complaining about it isn't going to change it. Also, some of the criticisms are apt, even if blunt and timed wrongly.

2) 'Newbie' is not an insult, it's a politically correct way of calling someone a noob. There are much worse insults one can come up with to really insult someone. As annoying as it may be, not letting it get to you is the best way to fight it.

3) There are many, many cases when such a call is actually warranted. There's a difference in taking it easy ito brake points and insisting on driving in the middle of a pack when they can't keep the car on the road for a single lap, even if there's nobody else pressuring them.

4) Demo racer bashing has nothing to do with drifting, which is a case on its own regardless of licence status. Demo racers who can't be bothered to put in the effort to express themselves properly, and feel they are obliged to demand more content are justifiably flamed. Crying for new content and updates as a demo racer appears selfish because it's more for nothing, I care not for selfish, arrogant people.

5) I disagree, it may eventually turn into a flamefest but initially he will get constructive responses from the several knowledgeable people. I'd foresee that it would turn nasty when someone would make a comment how they were 'surprised' nobody's insulted anyone yet.

6??

7) Tough poo, tbh. No offence to ConeDodgers, but their servers are not ones one should base generalisations on. Those who spam blue flag will continue to do so until it's not permitted. They aren't going to 'see the light' because they don't want to. Go to another server where such is not tolerated.

8) Dude, srsly. Take a break, have a holiday, take a chill pill, take the dog for a walk w/e. Now you really are just whining.

The LFS community has not gone downhill. The community has grown (= more idiots around) and it has kept its intergrity admirably. Basing general consensus on actions of individuals you don't like is pointless (and by that I mean that it's human nature to take more notice of things we don't like than things that we agree with and take for granted). Instead of looking at how 'bad' the community is, look at how good it is. Free licences flying left right and centre, support given to the devs in patch testing, the addon programmers are still updating their software, UKCT has made a masssssssssssive contribution, yadda yadda etc etc.

It's people who question and undermine the community by posting about how bad the community is that really make it annoying sometimes. Oh, and, if this community was as bad as you make it look, I dare say this thread would look much worse than it is.

+1

I feel DK is taking some bad experiences, putting them under a magnifying glass and claiming this is the way it goes all the time. Plus, exaggerating is one of his specialties.

+1
:twocents:

[franky500]

ok this thread is now repeating itself, The points have been made and i cant see anything more productive to come from this thread. Time to Forclose on this thread.