Make LX6 a Race Car [Archive]

RacingSimFan

25th October 2005, 06:34

I've been driving the LX6 using the slickmod and it is wonderful!!!

On road tires it is a nearly uncontrollable beast yet on slicks it is a lot of fun and would be an excellent RWD competitor to XFR/UFR.

I noticed a thread further down mentioned LX4 or RAC as possible equivalents. However it noted RAC is slightly faster, and I've tested LX4 with slickmod and found it to be marginally slower. But I think LX6 is just right.

If the LX8 is canned for good would it be possible for the devs to switch the LX6 over to Race Car configuration (slicks, 1 seat, performance parts) in a patch for S2?

After testing the car on road tires and on slicks it becomes obvious that the LX6 is a road car that desperately wants to be a race car.

What do ya say devs? Can you make it's dream come true?

That would increase that car's popularity overnight I guarantee you!

Rotary

25th October 2005, 06:38

That would be awesome :D

I would still like to have the LX8 GTR, but an LX6 GTR would be a damn fine.

I couldn't see an LX6 GTR racing against FWD buzzbox GTR's though, that would look wrong :)

RacingSimFan

25th October 2005, 06:46

I would still like to have the LX8 GTR, but an LX6 GTR would be a damn fine.

The LX6 doesn't have to be 'GTR' with a turbo and whatnot. Just slapping slicks on it makes it a much racier car yet isn't all downforced up or tricked out. That would also leave room for an LX8 GTR with turbo and spoilers and tuner stuff.

Seriously, making the LX6 a race car in S2 Final may be one of the best reasonable/do-able changes the devs could make.

Breizh

25th October 2005, 06:59

Would the LX8 really need a turbo? It should already be pretty spunky.

Chaos

25th October 2005, 07:35

please NO turbo in the LX8, it would possibly make it almost undriveable! I agree that a race version would be nice. But not make it out of the LX6 but add it.. the LX6 is a blast on KY nat versus the FZ50 and RAC! You get overtaken on the oval part, but take it back on the inside part of the track.
So leave the LX6 as it is now and add a LX6-R with slicks...

SoloNijN

25th October 2005, 10:21

Nah, i can allready imagine what a turbo would do on a LX8

Lag -Lag - Lag MASSIVE WHEELSPIN BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Something like that :P

al heeley

25th October 2005, 10:39

Nice, I like the idea of an LX6 with slicks :up:

tristancliffe

25th October 2005, 10:49

/me gulps

I think the LX6 should remain as a road car. No slicks. Yes, the car is quicker and easier on slicks, but then we could put all the cars on stickier rubber if the noobs can't handle them.

If the devs made the LX8, then great, an LX GTR (who said GTR's have to have turbos anyway :S). But leave the LX4 and 6 as they are (and with further improvements to the road tyre physics you might find that even noobs can drive it!)

I mean, it's not as though the LX6 is especially difficult in S2 anymore, it's just that as LFS has become more popular, the driving standard has dropped dramatically.

Tweaker

25th October 2005, 18:10

Would much rather like to see the LX4 a race car instead in my opinion.

Here is what I said a while ago which would essentially make it a 'superlight' track-day version I guess:

Basically a 'track day' version of the LX4. All it would be is a LX4 with a slight bit more power, rollcage, tiny driver windscreen, slightly larger slick tires, and of course lightened a bit. A superlight version kinda :). I was really looking forward to the LX8, and not having a race version of an LX is sad for any racing game :(
The LX4's shape looks FAR better for a track/race version. The LX6 looks too much like a heavy behemoth and for any car in the LX category, I think it needs to look lightweight and perform like a lightweight. Pumping up the LX6 would create some problems I think...

Tweaker

25th October 2005, 18:14

And here are a few examples of what I mean by a 'LX4 Track Day car'

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2004/2004-Caterham-Superlight-R500-Evolution-Rizla-Suzuki-Track-1280x960.jpg
http://www.caterham.co.uk/press/hires/Tracksport2.jpg
http://www.carpages.co.uk/caterham/caterham_images/caterham_cars_14_07_05.jpg
http://www.vfsvideos.co.uk/750caterham.jpg

Even better:
Caterham CSR260 Race ---- http://www.caterham.co.uk/press/auto-hires/47.jpg
http://www.auto-rennsport-page.de/bilder/cat/04/2/CAT04_18.JPG
See More here (http://www.auto-rennsport-page.de/bilder/cat/cat04_02.htm)

Don't say this isn't cool :D

Rotary

26th October 2005, 00:49

The LX6 doesn't have to be 'GTR' with a turbo and whatnot. Just slapping slicks on it makes it a much racier car yet isn't all downforced up or tricked out. That would also leave room for an LX8 GTR with turbo and spoilers and tuner stuff.

Seriously, making the LX6 a race car in S2 Final may be one of the best reasonable/do-able changes the devs could make.

Who mentioned anything about turbo's?? The original, but canned, LX8 GTR was a NA V8 - no turbo at all...

colcob

26th October 2005, 05:17

Breizh

26th October 2005, 05:58

LX6 already is about as fast as the XFR and UFR, so with aero stuff it'd most likely beat them around corners.
LX4 with a stronger engine and aero work would probably be better.
LX8 GTR would really be fun against the other three GTRs we already have.

Tweaker

26th October 2005, 07:33

Its interesting that only one of those 6 shots has the car running on full slicks. The rest all have tread pattern of one sort or another.

I must admit I'm suprised as like other people I assumed that competitive track racing = slicks.
I'm not trying to be accurate here, just getting the pics of the car :) Even more so, I would love to have those grooved pattern tires, they seem comon in some Caterham series. But a set of slicks would be nice, so we can have superior cornering :)

Woz

26th October 2005, 08:33

Having an LX based car in the UFR/XFR group would be great. Its what that group needs to make it popular.

Fetzo

26th October 2005, 09:23

this is weird, imho cars with roadtyres are much more controllable at the limit than cars with slicks. and the tyres won't fry just because you accidentally did a massive drift.

i really think it's easier.

a lx6 with slicks would leave the xfr and the ufr waaaaaaay behind.

Blackout

26th October 2005, 10:13

No LX 6 slick version, LX8 GTR and it wouldn't have to compete with any of the cars. I wish the devs havent deleted LX8R from their harddrives, even if it would just looks like the LX6 with slicks and more power :)

Breizh

26th October 2005, 10:22

A monster VW bug then? would make it as quirky as the other two.
Would really be cool to have someone bribe the devs into including the LX8 and LX8 GTR back into the next release :)

Blackout

26th October 2005, 10:30

Was there LX8 AND LX8 GTR? I thought that there was only LX8 GTR?
edit2: eh..seems like it that there was only the gtr http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=contents&car=lx8_gtr

and lol to myself...

Huru-aito

26th October 2005, 12:01

OMG http://www.liveforspeed.net/?page=contents&car=ferrari360

There was supposed to be just one LX8, the LX8 GTR which would've had slicks.

EDIT: I don't really care that we didn't get the LX8 GTR, I just don't fancy having an "openwheel" car in the same class as some others. Trackdays with roadcars, that's different. But proper racing.. No. IRL there would be safety issues, not just because of the lighter and more fragile construction of these Caterham type of cars but also the resulting performance differences between them and big cars.

Breizh

26th October 2005, 13:29

This isn't RL, it's a game made for fun.
The LX8 would've been fun, for the same reasons the other two LXs are.
I would've given it some downforce, though.

DodgeRacer

26th October 2005, 14:35

This isn't RL, it's a game made for fun.
The LX8 would've been fun, for the same reasons the other two LXs are.
I would've given it some downforce, though.

Its a game based on emulating real life though, so we cant get to carried away, I think the more race car oriented version of the LX6 would be the best bet. High powered, still little downforce, but little drag too, and some semi slicks

Hyperactive

26th October 2005, 16:03

Well there is some aero related pics about the MRT in www.liveforspeed.net:
http://www.liveforspeed.net/page_images/screenshots/MRT6_2.jpg

Maybe a race race version?

JTbo

26th October 2005, 16:15

Well there is some aero related pics about the MRT in www.liveforspeed.net: (http://www.liveforspeed.net:)
http://www.liveforspeed.net/page_images/screenshots/MRT6_2.jpg

Maybe a race race version?

Hmmh, McGill (http://www.fsae.mcgill.ca/pictures.php?lang=en)

Hyperactive

26th October 2005, 16:18

JTbo

26th October 2005, 16:19

JTbo, your point being...? It is just a McGill racer with wings on it. And I guess the LX v8 was removed simply because the car would have impossible to drive. Like the F08 without wings and slicks :)

They planned to use wings with Mrt6, but they dropped them out for some reason I don't remember anymore :P

bbman

26th October 2005, 17:26

Take a look at the videos... Especially the one named "LFS MRT5 with aero"... ;)

DodgeRacer

26th October 2005, 17:46

I think they used it for dev on the formula cars as well, and mc` wanted to try some aero stuff

sinbad

26th October 2005, 17:58

I've said it before, but there's room for a racing-7 in any respectable racing simulation. It doesn't have to be more powerful than the LX6, though of course it could be (nowhere near the LX8's intended figures though), and it definitely doesn't have to be a V8. Just strip the lights, screen and roof, add a more motorsport looking roll-cage, and not-too-huge slicks/"all-weather"cut-slicks. Give it a revvy 4 cylinder engine, not too dissimilar from the LX4's, and put it in a class on its own. Maybe even give it only one tyre to choose from (if you were attempting to simulate a typical 7 series, you'd only offer one "control-tyre").

I think LFS needs more single car classes, with restrictions like tyres, and limited setup, not more cars to go in the classes we already have.

DodgeRacer

26th October 2005, 18:03

JeffR

27th October 2005, 14:18

slicks for the LX6, since the real ones often use slicks

I've always wanted slicks on the LX6. The stock tires are Avon CR500's, but no one races with these. The lowest grip tire used for racing seven replicas is the Avon ACB10 DOT tire, resutling in about 1.2 to 1.3g's of cornering force. LFS doesn't have an equivalent to this tire. Avon makes a Caterham specific bias ply racing slick, good for 1.4 to 1.5 g's of cornering force. Considering that Caterham includes slicks for sell at it's web site, it seems only fitting that the LX6 should also get slicks.

Tire products available through Caterham:

http://www.caterham.co.uk/aftersales/upgrades/mar03.htm

LX6 should also get more power

The 4 cylinder, 2.3 liter Duratech motor used on the Caterham CSR makes 260hp, a lot more than the 190hp of the LX6 in LFS. In the USA, where premium gas is only 91 octane, Cosworth makes a 240hp version of the 2.3 liter Duratec. I have a similarly tuned Duratech 2.3 liter based Caterham SV that I bought from a local Caterham dealer.

A web site with some nice videos of a Caterham in action

Unlucky guy though. He finally get's his early prototype, customed tuned Durtech motor running right at Spa and then crashes on radiator fluid spilled by another car.

http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/

pics of my caterham sv

http://jeffareid.net/ctm/ctm.htm

RacingSimFan

27th October 2005, 14:28

And if you try slickmod on this car, it is still a challenge to control especially under braking but its not damn-near-impossible like on road tires.

A full field of LX6's would quickly make us forget about the argument over tires.

And I'm not a 'noob' like some suggest because I'd like to see slicks on some road cars. I just don't have the time to practice on a much slipperier car fast enough to make racing it worthwhile.

bobvanvliet

27th October 2005, 15:08

I'm always for making LFS more realistic, so if RL lotus 7 replicas have (semi-)slicks, so should the lx6.

But I also think people should stop dismissing the LX6 as impossible to drive, it just needs a bit of practice and a nice set.

And as for "A full field of LX6's would quickly make us forget about the argument over tires.", I have a 15 man, 75 lap race at FE Club with the RA, FZ5 and LX6, but I think almost everyone is driving the LX. I'll let you know if we survived ;)

JeffR

27th October 2005, 15:13

near-impossible like on road tires.

Try this setup that I use for Blackwood for the road supers. A combination of swaybar and camber settings really helps stabilize the LX6.

http://jeffareid.net/lfss2/LX6_bl1_jeffr.set

Still, since the real LX6's have slicks, the game should offer them also. I think your point about a full field of LX6's is spot on.

JeffR

27th October 2005, 15:18

I'm always for making LFS more realistic, so if RL lotus 7 replicas have (semi-)slicks, so should the lx6.As previously posted, they have both, a semi-slick Avon ACB10 DOT tire, street "legal", but not really streetable, and the Avon Caterham Bias Bly racing slick. LFS doesn't include an equivalent to the ACB10 DOT tire, it's in between the LFS road super and the LFS slick.

An update to my previous post, there are some low powered Catherham classes using the CR500 street tires, but most Caterham racers use the ACB10's or the slicks.

ajp71

27th October 2005, 15:27

A racing 4 cylinder on slicks would be best, like the Caterham R500.

DodgeRacer

27th October 2005, 15:51

how about this? http://www.pistonheads.com/clubmans/features/Default.asp?storyId=6846

http://www.pistonheads.com/uploads/news/6846-3.jpg

sinbad

27th October 2005, 16:32

JeffR, do you consider the R400 based "Caterham Challenge" category to be low-powered? (1.8 litre 200bhp at 7900rpm, running, guess what, CR500 all weather road tyres).
This is like deja-vu all over again. I want an LX with slicks, but the LX6 doesn't NEED them, it's a road car, and if it were a 190bhp race-car it still wouldn't NEED them in order to be a realistic representation of Caterham 7 motorsport.

JeffR

27th October 2005, 17:08

JeffR, do you consider the R400 based "Caterham Challenge" category to be low-powered? (1.8 litre 200bhp at 7900rpm, running, guess what, CR500 all weather road tyres).No, but LFS has a LX4, the LX6 should be as powerful as the Caterham 4 cylinder CSR. Regarding the tires, as posted, those are the stock tires and what I have on my Caterham. However, if I were to go racing, I would use ACB10 DOT tires or slicks. My Caterham has the dry sump system which is recommended to deal with the high cornering g forces involved with the slicks.

This is like deja-vu all over again. I want an LX with slicks, but the LX6 doesn't NEED them, it's a road car, and if it were a 190bhp race-car it still wouldn't NEED them in order to be a realistic representation of Caterham 7 motorsport.Well the FO8 doesn't NEED slicks either, what's the point? LFS is supposed to be a wheel to wheel racing simulation, not a fun run on a track day game. As I already stated most of the racing with Caterhams occurs with ACB10 DOT tires (no equivalent of these in LFS), or with slicks.

Caterhams are supposed to be race cars that are also street legal. These are not typical street cars. Most street cars would have issues if you tried to run them with slicks (oil starvation, wheel bearing and suspension loads). The Caterhams are designed to run with slicks (if you get the dry sump option).

and the bottom line, why not let the player choose which tires to run with? It could be a server option to allow or not allow slicks on any car.

JeffR

27th October 2005, 17:15

If there ever was an LX8, it should get the same engine as the Radical SR8, which is composed of two Hayabusa 1.3 liter motorcycle heads paired up to a common crankcase to create a V8. 350hp.

A Radical SR8 just recently ran a 6:55 lap at Nordschleife.

Then again, a Radical SR8 would be a cool car for LFS.

tristancliffe

27th October 2005, 17:26

I think we should keep road tyres on the LX's in LFS (until we get an LX8), and just improve the road tyre physics.

Also, I don't think saying the LX6 should be like the brand new CSR, especially as it's only just been released, but the LX6 has been in LFS for two years...

Please don't turn this into another "My names JeffR and I only ever talk about slick tyres on caterhams, oh by the way did I mention I've got one" threads. Most of us, and the devs, have seen it a million times.

Oh, and the Formula cars should have slicks, cos they do. Road cars, like LX's should have road tyres. I'd rather have a caterham on road supers than slicks anyday.... Just a shame my dad sold his. But then, he might get an F40 to race the Stratos soon (no race, I know)

JeffR

27th October 2005, 19:16

Also, I don't think saying the LX6 should be like the brand new CSR, especially as it's only just been released, but the LX6 has been in LFS for two years...and so has the superlight 500, a 4 cylinder with 230hp.

Please don't turn this into another my names JeffR...Please note that I didn't start this thread. Several players would like slicks for all cars, a few more would like slicks on the LX6. None of this has anything to do with actually owning a seven replica, just the fact that seven replicas are supposed to be track cars, and unlike street cars, they are designed to run with slicks.

Road cars, like LX's should have road tyres.Most people don't consider LX's to be road cars, most consider them to be track cars that are street legal. This is also the way the cars are marketed. How many road cars weigh less than 1200 lbs, consider a heater and windshield (instead of windscreen) as options, and don't offer air conditioning, a radio, cruise control, abs, or a lot of other things you find as an option on most road cars.

sinbad

27th October 2005, 19:25

Well the FO8 doesn't NEED slicks either, what's the point?

True, the FO8 could have grooved tyres like in GP2. As long as there's a real-world reason for something being as it is, I don't mind, hence why I don't mind the current LX cars having high-performance road-tyres.

Bob Smith

27th October 2005, 19:51

I think it would be good if we had more 7 style cars, 4 seems a good number to me if you want to cover all the bases (excessive? maybe. a good idea? I'm for it :thumb: ):

* 1.8ltr I4 model, around 140bhp at 6500rpm, road tyres, normal weight
* 1.1ltr I4 model, around 170bhp at 11,000rpm, road tyres, less weight due to bike engine
* 2.0ltr I4 model, around 250bhp at 8000rpm, race tyres, slightly reduced weight
and finally either:
* 4.0ltr Rover V8, around 240bhp at 6000rpm, race tyres, a bit heavier than normal (plus a very different character)
or
* 2.6ltr RPA V8, around 360bhp at 10,500rpm, race tyres (only fun if we can actually put the power down)

It's the only way to keep everyone happy. You could even have a 7 style challenge in the game where you progress through the cars?

Colin_Chapman

28th October 2005, 00:01

All that involves more Lotus style cars is good for me :D:D:D:thumb:

JeffR

28th October 2005, 01:07

As long as there's a real-world reason for something being as it is, I don't mind, hence why I don't mind the current LX cars having high-performance road-tyres.But in the real world, LX owners have the option of running with slicks, and many do.

It's not a biggy for me, with all the games out just now, I don't play any of them online much, and there's already a slick mode for LFS S2. However other players here are wanting to race the LX6 online with slicks, and I agree with them and offer supporting reaons for doing so, so far to no avail.

Maybe I'm a bit touchy on this one, becaue of a similar problem with Need For Speed Porsche Unleashed. In the car file, NFS5.CAR, one of the race cars, the 550, didn't have any tires at all in its list of available parts, an obvious bug and the only car with this bug. The parts file, NFS5.PRT had 3 types of tires specifically for the 550, normal, rain, slicks. With a missing key part, the game defaulted to a standard tire. The fix was simple, and could be done via a savegame without changing any acutal game files, but some vocal opponents claimed they didnt' want any non EA changes even though the game was abandonware by then. So this meant the entire online community was stuck with a race car that didn't have slicks, because of opposition from a small, but vocal group. (Note that all other cars in NFS Porsche Unleashed have slicks as a tire option, from the 1950 356 to the 2000 turbo, only the obvious bug in the NFS5.CAR file prevented the 550 from having any tires at all).

sinbad

28th October 2005, 09:03

But in the real world, LX owners have the option of running with slicks, and many do.

Not in the R400 based Caterham Challenge they don't. ;)
It's the old LFS problem, running road-cars as if they're race cars. On one hand, they're obviously not meant to be race-cars, they've been completely modelled on road-variants, and yet the restrictions are close to what a racing series is like. I'm sure lots of Caterham owners that do not race their cars make all sorts of modifications, but those that actually race them are, of course, not so free to do so.
Anyway, it's obvious you think slicks should be an option (read: the only tyre anyone uses), I disagree, there's more than enough premise for just using road-tyres, but I'd like to see a proper racing-type LX with slicks/near-slicks. There's certainly room for both.

In a slightly OT direction: I would like to see every car in LFS made more racing oriented, at least from an aesthetic point of view. Simulate racing-series', not just cars for us to race on the tracks. Give us roll-cages and fire-extinguishers and harnesses, tape over the lights and towing eyes etc.....then decide on what sort of regulations would be imposed in the class if it were a real series, and impose them in LFS too. I don't think it's enough to just make the car, give enough setups options so the community can make it handle ok, and leave it at that, not if simulation is the name of the game.

tristancliffe

28th October 2005, 09:56

In a slightly OT direction: I would like to see every car in LFS made more racing oriented, at least from an aesthetic point of view. Simulate racing-series', not just cars for us to race on the tracks. Give us roll-cages and fire-extinguishers and harnesses, tape over the lights and towing eyes etc.....then decide on what sort of regulations would be imposed in the class if it were a real series, and impose them in LFS too. I don't think it's enough to just make the car, give enough setups options so the community can make it handle ok, and leave it at that, not if simulation is the name of the game.

Agreed, and excellent idea!

I know Eric is working hard behind the scenes improving the car models (and track models too), so that when S2 goes final (which will probably be a fairly big update, rendering replays/hotlaps etc redundant) we'll get much nicer cars/interiors etc.

Many track bugs will be fixed (it's not just the .exe thats Alpha), and I hope (but this is me talking) that the helmet model gets a few extra polygons thrown at it (and that some of them stick).

JeffR

28th October 2005, 10:06

With a few exceptions, almost every racing class allows DOT tires to be used. For lighter cars, this translates into about 1.2 to 1.3g's of cornering force, and the tires handle more like slicks than road supers. LFS doesn't have such a tire model, but this would be a nice addition.

Hyperactive

29th October 2005, 00:35

Gunn

29th October 2005, 00:48

Slicks or semi-slicks would be most welcome to me for all of the cars. If I was going to race a road car I would never leave home with road normals.

I don't drive any of the road cars in LFS any more, I don't see the point. The race cars give me better racing, more enjoyment and allow me to push harder.
Part of the appeal of LFS is obviously borne by the road cars and so different people get different joy from it. The addition of some sort of race tyre, at least a semi-slick for road cars and especially the LX models, would get me driving them again. But if that never happens I don't mind because there are several other cars to keep me happy. A race version of the LX4 or 6 would be great fun and a challenge I think.

Hyperactive

29th October 2005, 01:00

RacingSimFan

29th October 2005, 01:28

There is a problem concerning the slicks and roadcars. If the slicks were available to the normal cars, no one would use the road tyres anymore. What's the point. Unless as a serverside option. But plain road tyres are little extreme concervative if you ask me.

That's something a server setting could be able to decide.

I think that road tires only are okay for the bare bones cars such as UF1, XFG and XRG.

RB4, FXO and XRT are also okay on road tires.

But the higher-end road cars such as LX4,LX6,RAC,FZ5 should IMO have a slick option added to them because they are close to being race cars in terms of performance and real-life comparison.

JeffR

29th October 2005, 08:13

I still think that if you made it a server option most people would want the slicks (the "easy" tyres), so server admins would enable the slicks, and you'd never see the road tyres again.If this is what the buyers of LFS S2 want, then why not give it to them? I don't think slicks are "easy" tires, unless the road supers are improperly implemented, or they are deliberatly implemented to be less stable. With slicks, braking distances are shorter, requiring more driver accuracy for braking points.

Hyperactive

29th October 2005, 13:32

But having the both tyre types, roadies and race ones, available would mean that we had two cars instead of one. As the tyres change the handling of the car so dramatically, no one would want to use road tires after slicks, because roadies are not so fast, are more unexpectable and generally slide more. Or most...

But I really don't want pure racing slicks to some cars. The cars RacingSimFan listed there with their tyre choices is OK to me, but I don't want pure racing slicks in any other than the actual racing cars the LFS has got (XFR, UFR, GTRs...). But the LX4,LX6,RAC and FZ5 should have some kind of "almost racing tyres" because they are used for racing in LFS and in real life they wouldn't race using normal road tyres. I think in real life racing series the tyres are strctly controlled, and only certain type of tyreset(s) is/are allowed.

But this isn't really going anywhere unless we know what kind of racing and what kind of cars the LFS cars are meant to simulate. If the LX4,LX6,RAC and FZ5 were trying to simulate normal highpowered cars on track the current system with normal road tyres is OK. But if they were trying to simulate racing leagues where these types of cars are used, they fail imho, because of the concervative tyre choices that are currently available.

Just my :twocents:

sinbad

29th October 2005, 17:19

I have one problem with this roadcar/racecar separation. Let's take the LXs for example. When there is series where these cars are used, they use racing tires (don't they in most cases?). But not all LX type real cars are made for racing, they are just a selfmade or a different type of a car, usually sporty ones. And these of course use road tyres. You can compare them with hotrods, the principles have something common. (flamesuit needed :) )

So what I'm saying is that some of the roadcars (the LXs, and sportcars in general) get much more track time than the others (GTi, GTT) in real life. Even the GTi are generally present in any trackday events, most of these cars never visit track. And when they get some tracktime, they change slicks or some other racing tyres.

Because we in LFS don't just cruise around and check the chicks, it would be more realistic if the LX4 had some kind of racing tyres. As it seems imho more like a racing car than the LX6. Hell, I would even make the LX4 a true selfmade racecar and leave the LX6 alone. Though the LX4 needed some more power, to be a racecar... But can the LFS handle these cars? Are they in real life so hard to drive? Even the F08 is way easier than the LX6... :smileypul

Is there a car/s in LFS that compete in same class as the LX4 currently?

You're guessing at information on which you are basing your arguments. If you do a little research you will find that in Caterham classes, the official series' (in the UK this is), only the top cars with 260 bhp run slick/cut-slick tyres. The others all use road-tyres, from 100bhp beginner classes in which the tyres are intended to last all season, through to 200bhp Challenge classes in expensive cars, where the tyre is an all-weather road-tyre designed specifically for the car.

So no, it wouldn't be ANY more realistic for these current LX4 and 6 cars to be running racing-slicks, in fact, there's a great argument for it being less realistic, particularly when the cars are not modelled on racing variants of the 7.

Hyperactive

29th October 2005, 18:02

Damn, didn't check that. So the tiresets used in LFS are realistic then and I have nothing to complain :) Thanks for info.

JeffR

30th October 2005, 02:01

Caterham classes - only the top cars with 260 bhp run slick/cut-slick tyres. The others all use road-tyres, from 100bhp beginner classes in which the tyres are intended to last all season, through to 200bhpThis is ignoring the fact that a significant portion of Caterham racing is in 2 liter class, not Caterham specific, and most of these are done with slicks.

Caterham specific classe were changed in 2005 (no superlight R500 classes). I don't see a class for their R500 superlight anymore. As posted most of these classes are oriented towards the lower powered cars, and generally allow the CR500 tires. Note that Caterham describes this tire as an all weather racing tire, not as a road tire.

I suspect that most European club racing by Caterham owners doesn't involve the Catheham UK sponsored racing, more more of the equivalent of the SCCA in the USA.

I can guarantee that all the lap record runs by Caterhams at Nordschleife were done using slicks.

In SCCA racing. almost all classes allow DOT racing tires, or slicks. You can scan this document to see what is allowed:

2005GeneralCompetitionRules.pdf (http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/2005GeneralCompetitionRules.pdf)

Even though most racing classes for modified road cars (and even stock road cars) allow at least DOT racing tires, if not slicks, LFS doesn't include either.

Tweaker

30th October 2005, 02:03

Errrm how do we know what kind of tires are modelled in LFS?

JeffR

30th October 2005, 02:34

Errrm how do we know what kind of tires are modelled in LFS?Road Supers on the LX6 produce a sustained (versus temporary peak) max cornering force of about 1.15g's. In LFS, the road supers are more unstable than the slicks, I assume that this is LFS's idea of how a radial based street tire behaves.

Slicks on the LX6 (via slick mod) prodcuce about 1.4g's of cornering force, a tad less than real racing slicks, but close enough. They are more stable than the road supers, and my assumption is this is LFS's ides of how bias ply racing slicks react.

Breizh

30th October 2005, 07:02

Those slicks you tested on the LX6 were R2s or R1s?

JeffR

30th October 2005, 10:15

Those slicks you tested on the LX6 were R2s or R1s?I've tried both.

Bob Smith

30th October 2005, 10:47

I've tried both.
And which gave 1.4gs? There should be nearly 0.1g difference between R1s and R2s (from the testing I did a while back).

sinbad

30th October 2005, 12:55

This is ignoring the fact that a significant portion of Caterham racing is in 2 liter class, not Caterham specific, and most of these are done with slicks.

Caterham specific classe were changed in 2005 (no superlight R500 classes). I don't see a class for their R500 superlight anymore. As posted most of these classes are oriented towards the lower powered cars, and generally allow the CR500 tires. Note that Caterham describes this tire as an all weather racing tire, not as a road tire.

I suspect that most European club racing by Caterham owners doesn't involve the Catheham UK sponsored racing, more more of the equivalent of the SCCA in the USA.

I can guarantee that all the lap record runs by Caterhams at Nordschleife were done using slicks.

In SCCA racing. almost all classes allow DOT racing tires, or slicks. You can scan this document to see what is allowed:

2005GeneralCompetitionRules.pdf (http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/2005GeneralCompetitionRules.pdf)

Even though most racing classes for modified road cars (and even stock road cars) allow at least DOT racing tires, if not slicks, LFS doesn't include either.

OK, fair enough. I've given examples explaining why road-tyres for the LX cars in LFS isn't wrong, you've given examples of what you think should be different and why.
IMO this discussion can go no further without some kind of comment from a developer. (What their intentions are for future, and/or these, LX cars, what made them implement the current LX cars in the way that they are, why the current road-cars are really in a grey area between road-and-race and if there are reasons for that, etc).

PS: (And not that it's in the least bit relevant, but I doubt the Caterham R500 lap of 7:56 at the Nordschleife was done on slicks. I haven't been able to find proof, but production and road car records are done on road-legal tyres, even the new lap-record holding Radical SR8 was using road-tyres, they claimed they could have taken 30 seconds off their 6:55 laptime if they had used slicks).

RacingSimFan

30th October 2005, 15:23

There's nothing wrong with off-the-shelf street tires on these cars per se, but if the real-life equivalvents of the LX's have an option for slicks or at least race-designed All Weather tires, so should the LX's in the game, IMO.

Fonnybone

30th October 2005, 18:00

Did anyone bother reading this?!

"AVON CR500 - The ultimate tyre and the only road legal tyre developed
specifically for the Seven, this is standard fitment to the Superlight range
and the control tyre in the SuperGrad and Roadsport B race series. "

Doesn't sound like the standard 'street' tire to me. It also explains those
racing images with cars wearing AVON CR500s. I spot some YOKOHAMA
A032R also...

"YOKOHAMA A032R - A popular tyre in club racing (...) This 'supersoft'
compound directional tyre is ideal for dry road and track use. Tyre life is
usually about 5k miles."

All info from this link :
http://www.caterham.co.uk/aftersales/upgrades/mar03.htm

The line between slick and street tire is very thin apparently. ;)

sinbad

30th October 2005, 18:08

Did anyone bother reading this?!

"AVON CR500 - The ultimate tyre and the only road legal tyre developed
specifically for the Seven, this is standard fitment to the Superlight range
and the control tyre in the SuperGrad and Roadsport B race series. "

Taken from this link :
http://www.caterham.co.uk/aftersales/upgrades/mar03.htm

Doesn't sound like the standard 'street' tire to me. It also explains those
racing images with cars obviously wearing AVON CR500s.

Of course it's been read, did you read this thread?
The CR500 is quite a long way from being a slick, and is the standard fitment to the road-cars as well as the cars in those series'. The question is whether the "road-super" tyre is of similar performance, and since cars in LFS running the road-supers develop what is considered to be a very high amount of grip in cornering, I think we can assume that the road-super does compare much more closely with very high performance road tyres, than with budget or "standard street" tyres.

ajp71

30th October 2005, 18:18

Tyre life is
usually about 5k miles."

The line between slick and street tire is very thin apparently. ;)

No it isn't 032Rs will last a couple of seasons, a set of starter slicks (nothing like as soft as R1 or R2) will just last a season, although they'll be past their best after about 6 heat cycles (3 practices and races). Road tires are not effected by each heat cycle in the same way that racing tires are, not all road legal tires are considered 'road tires' anyway, the MSA publishes a list of accepted road tires in the Blue book.

JeffR

31st October 2005, 02:23

Although the Avon CR500 is specified for most of the "Caterham" classes run by Catrerham themselves, most club racing classes with tire restrictions use the Avon ACB10, a racing compound tire, or they use slicks if there aren't any tire restrictions. As previously posted, most USA SCCA racing classes, that have tire restrictions, just require a DOT approved tire, which translates into a racing compound tire with treads, like the Avon ACB10. Many classes in the SCCA have no tire restrictions other than the tire must have a proper speed rating, so slicks are used in these classes. Note that the ACB10 is the "Roadsport A control tire".

Regarding the Caterham runs at Nordschleife, I wasn't referring to the offical production car class runs, just the lap record runs made by some club racers. I don't know what official orginization defines what a production class car is, or what such a car can run with on the Nordschleife. My guess is a racing compound tire with treads if there are tire restirctions.

A Caterham "production car" is a tough call, since you can order one with "Avon Caterham Slicks". Edit: sine production class is supposed to be street legal, then the Avon ACB10 was probably used. These are stickier tires than the CR500's or LFS's road supers.

LFS doesn't have the equivalent of a racing compound DOT (street legal) tire.

JeffR

31st October 2005, 02:32

Even the new lap-record holding Radical SR8 was using road-tyres, they claimed they could have taken 30 seconds off their 6:55 laptime if they had used slicks).

True, but Dunlop Direnzas are a lot stickier than "road supers". Apparently this run was done on a Radical with the SVA option. Note that the only tires specified for Radicals are slicks. For street tires, you're on your own.

http://www.cgimotorsports.com/radical_info.html

Note that Dunlop Direnza are probably the softest "street legal" compound tire you can get, from this link in reference to Berkins, another Lotus 7 replica maker. I don't know if the Direnza 02G is what the Radicals use, since the downforce puts more of a load on the tire than a 1200 lb Lotus 7 replica does.

http://www.prbaustralia.com.au/Newsletter%20APRMAY05.PDF

Yokohama A032—good all-rounder, good road mileage and competent track tyre

Toyo R888—as for Yoko A032, but better value for money, but squarer profile may touch front guards

Avon CR500—premium soft road tyre, rain pattern, expensive

Dunlop Direnza 02G—excellent soft road tyre, excellent for supersprints but get too hot after continuous laps

Avon ACB10—probably the fastest road-legal tyre, crossply, very soft, expensive

Regarding the SR8 record run, if that car could really run 30 seconds faster with slicks, then why not an attempt with an all race SR8 to break the all time record of 6:11 set by Stefan Bellof back in 1983 with his Group C Porsche 956 during practice?

Tweaker

31st October 2005, 04:39

Heheh the more and more JeffR says 'road supers' it really makes me want the name changed in the game, lol!

Chaos

31st October 2005, 07:12

This weekend we had the "GTP Weekend" event at the race track I work at and guess what raced here ;)

LX6-R or what? (http://www.autodrom-most.cz/getimg.php?id=10052)

nmmz

24th March 2012, 17:19

Would much rather like to see the LX4 a race car instead in my opinion.

The LX4's shape looks FAR better for a track/race version. The LX6 looks too much like a heavy behemoth and for any car in the LX category, I think it needs to look lightweight and perform like a lightweight. Pumping up the LX6 would create some problems I think...

And here are a few examples of what I mean by a 'LX4 Track Day car'

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2004/2004-Caterham-Superlight-R500-Evolution-Rizla-Suzuki-Track-1280x960.jpg
http://www.caterham.co.uk/press/hires/Tracksport2.jpg
http://www.carpages.co.uk/caterham/caterham_images/caterham_cars_14_07_05.jpg
http://www.vfsvideos.co.uk/750caterham.jpg

Even better:
Caterham CSR260 Race ---- http://www.caterham.co.uk/press/auto-hires/47.jpg
http://www.auto-rennsport-page.de/bilder/cat/04/2/CAT04_18.JPG
See More here (http://www.auto-rennsport-page.de/bilder/cat/cat04_02.htm)

Don't say this isn't cool :D

That is epic.:) I love the Caterham CSR260 Race. If that got done I'd...I'd...Drive it all the time. It would go extra well with the skin that I recently requested.