Keyboard + Fun = impossible?

[Mr.Muh]

Hey,

i´ve downloaded the Demo 2 weeks ago and i really enjoy driving, but since i am pretty annoyed by the behavior of most of the demo drivers, i thought buying the S1 license would solve this problem :scratchch

But: I play with keyboard.
I gave my thrustmaster playstation-wheel a try, but somehow I just couldnt get used to the steering, i always turned and i wasnt able to drive a smooth line. I guess i´ll stay with keyboard...
I cant afford buying a better wheel anyway.

Can i drive the S1 cars with Keyboard? Will it be as fun as the Demo?
I´m afraid i could a) be the worst driver on every S1 server because of my keyboard and b) therefore dont have any fun :shrug:

By the way: are there as much S1 servers as Demo servers? And also a lot of people on them?

So... will the S1 license pay off for me? Just write, what comes to your mind :thumb:


Excuse my language, i´m from Germany..

[Riders Motion]

I am a keyboarder :really: and yes you can drive most S1 cars with it.

S1 servers = 1, maybe 2 when there's a lot of population....

[geeman1]

There isn't much activity in the S1. Everyone is at S2 or at the demo. There is only one active S1 server around at the time. There maybe more after patch X comes out, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Anyway I would suggest going straigth to S2.
About keyboard, you can have fun with it too, but using a wheel is much better. Even a cheap wheel is better than kyeboard.

[ctkza]

I'm a keyboard racer for the time being, I also bought the S2 license and you can race with a keyboard, it can just get frustrating sometimes because it's very difficult to get the times that people with wheels can, but that's a given I guess.

Get an S2 license!

[ctkza]

Gather enough money for a wheel and S2. A solid wheel should be 100 Euro (Driving force pro), and the S2 license is 36 Euro. Thats 136.

You need a GOOD wheel and S2. Thats when the fun starts. You can also run S2 with mouse. You can buy S2 for a start. Then gather money for a wheel. Pass some exams at school(if your in school):)

What he says!

[Mr.Muh]

Hm, the Driving Force Pro is sold for ~55 Euro on german onlineshops.
I guess with Force Feedback, i won´t have the steering-problems that i used to have with my old non-ff steeringwheel, right? (I always steerd too hard and nervous)


Well.. i could afford buying the wheel and S2, but i have 2 other hobbies that are soaking up my money, so i want to be sure, that the license will be worth its money.


Don´t get me wrong, i dont care about times and hotlapping, i just want do to some close and nice racing on public S2 servers, if thats possible with keyboard i´ll be happy :thumb:

[matze54564]

With keyboard you never can drive a smooth line in a curve, its still impossible, you just can drive smooth at a straight line.

therefore is it better you buy a better wheel with a higher axes-resolution or you use just your mouse.

the Mouse-Axes can also chosen in a wheel setup, go there in Axes/FF to chose Mouse X for steering and Mouse Y for throttle and brake.

Driving with mouse is difficult to learn, but somebody drive world records with it.

[AndroidXP]

...Yes, a DFP would be a good choice, and at least to me FF is essential - I couldn't drive without it. However, spending so much money at once on a game you might or might not like could be a bit overkill, so I'd just try getting S2 at first. S1 alone really doesn't make any sense, as you'll very likely only be able to play it offline, which isn't exactly the point of an online racing simulator ;)

From my point of view, S2 + a DFP would be totally worth it, but in the end it's your choice. I'd not get just S1, however.

[tiagolapa]

Ask KingNothing some keyboard advice. He is keyboard freak :nod:

Fujiwara can help you to, but only in uf1 :D

[Mr.Muh]

My problem with my non-FF wheel or mouse steering is, that I always steer to hard and act to nervous, because i dont get any feedback about the tires/grip/whatever...

This is the benefit of Force Feedback, right?


I guess i´ll get a DFP and see, how I get along with the steering, then I decide about buying S2..



Throttle and steering with one mouse? You must be crazy :D

[matze54564]

Throttle and steering with one mouse? You must be crazy :D
Its possible, u need to setup the mouse slower, and u need a optical usb-mouse for best results.

if you use the mouse axes in wheel setup u need set the wheel turn compensation to 1 and by Formula-Cars 150° wheel turn and other cars 300° wheel turn.
by a mouse-setup in Keybard/Mouse you must set a high centre reduction for better results.

I have mouse acceleration on, but maybe its better to turn it off.

[robt]

as I've mentioned in another thread in these last 12 hours, i don't find it to much of a problem to drive with keyboard, i can get middle pack in any car (minus the FWD GTR "cars") or in the top 5, and thats with the keyboard, i do have a DFP (although the pedals need throwing out and a new pair being acquired) but i find im only faster in the FOX, FO8 and BF1 with it. and thats after 2 or 3 months :s so it just takes practice with the keyboard as it does with any controller.

[Cr!t!calDrift]

I do really well on keyboard. Considering I am a demo user.

[LoganC]

I use a mouse which seems to work fine. I just use the mouse for side-to-side steering though. And the Keyboard for accel. and deccel. I just set my mouse to 2000dpi and it works fine, but it did take time to get used to. And I am in the exact same position as you are. I would like S2, and a wheel. But money always seems to be the obstacle!
Good luck to you anyway!

[ShannonN]

My problem with my non-FF wheel or mouse steering is, that I always steer to hard and act to nervous, because i dont get any feedback about the tires/grip/whatever...

This is the benefit of Force Feedback, right?


I guess i´ll get a DFP and see, how I get along with the steering, then I decide about buying S2..



Throttle and steering with one mouse? You must be crazy :D

It takes practice, if you are aware you steer too hard or as I interpret it, over react and overcorrect maybe, then you already have an answer to your problem.

First take it easy, do not try to be a perfect racer in a few short days, gradually practice offline to gain the familiarity with the wheel then increase your speed and reactions to suit.

We use wheels in real life to steer cars not keyboards so don't accept a kbd solution in the simulation, if you have a wheel that works!

Just allow time to get used to it. I used a mouse for ages before I got a wheel and it took me weeks of solid practice before I found the right settings to suit my style and stuff in LFS setup areas etc these settings do play a big part in your wheels response, turning circle etc so take time to ask others for good settings to suit that type of wheel etc

We are a community and will be happy to help with tips and advise

Cheers ShannonN

[RaDuS]

s2 man its worth the money if you can trust us

[andyb1982]

I've always played racing sims with the keyboard, until I recently found LFS! I paid £20 for a Saitek R220 wheel about a year ago but have never used it. I plugged it in the other day and did my best to get to grips! I really struggled to be honest, but what I found was reducing the WHEEL TURN setting in controls to 90 degrees made the world of difference!
Also, having analouge throttle and brake pedals makes a HUGE difference on car control, if you say you already have this wheel, I'd give it another try but play about with the settings a bit!

[Mr.Muh]

It takes practice, if you are aware you steer too hard or as I interpret it, over react and overcorrect maybe, then you already have an answer to your problem.

Indeed, thats what I tried to explain :thumb:

I have this thrustmaster 360 modena wheel, a couple of years old and the resistance while steering is done by a thing that looks like a bungee-rope, which doesn´t keep me from steering way too hard in the corner-entry and everywhere else..
If i would set the DFP´s Force Feedback effects to the maximum, i really can´t steer to hard, did I get this right?

I´ve also tried mouse.. my "problem" got even worse..


I guess i´ll have to find out myself, thanks a lot for your great help :thumb:

[johnfromsunnymull]

well i myself was a keyboard user to and was unable to conrtol the RWD cars but i think that was just me...but then i move onto a mouse and i have improved! so i suggest that but i see you post I´ve also tried mouse.. my "problem" got even worse.. hmm a bit weird but hey lol !

oh and i you are thinking of buying S1 erm...i would say either save up for S2 or stay on demo! just my opininon!

[fujiwara]

Ask KingNothing some keyboard advice. He is keyboard freak :nod:

Fujiwara can help you to, but only in uf1 :D

you son of $#%#$"#$...

don't ask KingNothing...he's gifted.
keyboard will drive you crazy, play while you can, but gather some money to get a wheel.

[Mr.Muh]

Yep i already decided to get a Dfp and the S2 licence, atm i´m searching for a shop near me, that can hold up to the online price of 47,50 Euro for a Dfp :scratchch

[BruTaLysT]

This may sound a bit harsh, but i really hope there will be a time that Keyboard/Mouse combo's are not allowed anymore. The most disadvantage of keyboard users is that the abrubt steering input (left/centre/right and nothing between) of digital buttons are not very well handled by the network code. U see those players shaking left/right because of repeatingly pressing buttons to correct the car on a straight line. They probably don't know this themselves but i can get so angry at seeing this i almost reach for my shotgun, not even to speak of moments where there is little lag going on. Those players are making it very unpleasant for others who DID spent their money and really go for the way it should be played. As for the record, i never had any money and even i could afford my Logitech Formula Force 7 years ago because i did some work on holidays. It's all about priorities, do u like to go out every day and spend all your money on drinks and chicks... do that. But when someone does not really feel the need to pay for a wheel, i would say he's not really interested in playing such a game at full potential and thus is not worth playing a SIM of this kind. Play Need for Speed or stick with the S2 Demo.

For mouse players, well a bit less annoying but still not fun at all, a real race enthousiast needs a wheel, otherwise u're just a pc geek who adores his beloved mouse far too much. And again, it's not about the money but about priorities.

Please let them make S3 a full wheel-only game, make it even so that servers can force the use of H-shifters and Clutch pedals because it's a shame to use them nowadays if the rest of the field uses flappy paddles with no clutch pedal. It would be amazing to drive with 30 drivers on a track who all use their clutch and H-shifters. At the moment the use of clutch and shifter is just for fun, u can't compete with the rest as they use a much easier method. These options should be included in the future without questioning imho.

[geeman1]

I disagree.

[BruTaLysT]

I disagree.

omg, at least say why and on which points u disagree. Now we can't have a decent conversation.

[fujiwara]

omg, at least say why and on which points u disagree. Now we can't have a decent conversation.

This type of conversation is not new.

[Mr.Muh]

You´re going way to far with your last suggestion..

edit: imho :)

[BruTaLysT]

This type of conversation is not new.


pff, i just marked several points about diffirent things, and its not just ONE point to disagree. There are even points u can't disagree too bacause they are fact. So when someone just says "i disagree" he's totally insane and prolly just suffered braindamage.

[geeman1]

omg, at least say why and on which points u disagree. Now we can't have a decent conversation.Here is another thread where I have replied to about the subject. http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=17441
Use the search to find more threads about controller elitism.

[BruTaLysT]

You´re going way to far with your last suggestion..

edit: imho :)

Why too far, it would be a nice OPTION so all can drive the same way. But just as a serverside option. Same like the serverside 'reset' option used now. It certaily has potential bacause all topspeed drivers i talked with would really like such an option so players can't cheat by using a much easier way to shift.

It's going a bit to the extreme side perhaps, but it's just an OPTION, u can turn it OFF. But this is not the right topic to discuss this, so i'm sorry i even started this in here. Plz forgive me :shrug:

[Mr.Muh]

My comment referred to "make S3 a wheel-only game".

Options are fine..

[BruTaLysT]

Ok, i agree with that, it would be very uncool to abandon all keyboard/mouse players, they at least need to be able to play the game without having a wheel. Still would like the options though, and i encountered this word 'elitist' several times now which is a bit bothersome. There really seems a big gap between the good and normal drivers, even disgrace. I have nothing against the whole community, LFS is great the way it is getting support so i even like all the very bad drivers and i help them all the time. I don't like to put such suggestions into 'elite' thinking. Terrible word

[Riders Motion]

I'm on keyboard and I can say I'm doing pretty well (Ask peoples like lfsn00b, niall06 or dj-fluxsa). I'm sure it's much funnier with a wheel but a waiting a few years to get a high end PC and a DFP. Until then, I'll still be using my keyboard, but I might move to mouse if I see a noticeable driving feel/easyness compared to keyboard.

J. Jacques

Edit: By the way I use:

Keyboard stabilised
ABS off
Full clutch

And it's as smooth as drifting with a mouse ;)

[BruTaLysT]

I'm on keyboard and I can say I'm doing pretty well (Ask peoples like lfsn00b, niall06 or dj-fluxsa). I'm sure it's much funnier with a wheel but a waiting a few years to get a high end PC and a DFP. Until then, I'll still be using my keyboard, but I might move to mouse if I see a noticeable driving feel/easyness compared to keyboard.



I'm pretty sure you can drive quite well with keyboard, i encounter lots of keyboard users who drive pretty 'ok' times, pro-mouse drivers can compete with pro-wheel drivers. The only problem could be the throttle/brake which is not accurate enough but u could use a joystick or even midi controllers to get this done better. When i need to brake into T1 on AS CLUB i need to brake 100%, then 50%, near the apex 10%, then slowly raise the power to 100% throttle. Last turn on the track i can't brake 100% at all, it locks at 80% so precise braking is crucial. It seems impossible to do this with digital keys...

But this is not MY main concern!, the problem is, that digital steering input is not handled well by the network code, cars seem to judder and shake around the track because of faulty interpolation. THAT is my main concern, if u don't get my point it's no problem. I need someone who agrees with this statement of this being a problem to other drivers around the keyboard driver because it's damn scary!!

[Mr.Muh]

My problem is, that digital steering input is not handled well by the network code

Are you sure about that?
Stabilised keyboard steering isnt that digital, like left/center/right?


Since this thread has gone offtopic anyway: whats this lag-indicator all about?

What´s the green stripe, that´s me? And at which length will I be "laggy" for other players?

Dfp is ordered :tilt:

[geeman1]

Since this thread has gone offtopic anyway: whats this lag-indicator all about?Here is the explanation for the lag meter: http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Display#Latency.2FLag_bars

[BruTaLysT]

Congrats on ordering your DFP, you won't regret it ;)



Well, i don't know if this statement of mine is true, but always when i encounter a Keyboard player his car is going like mad, almost impossible to pass. Or these drivers clearly can't drive at all, or there is some input not handled very well, so the driver actually drives quite well, but to others it seems like he is waving around the track. It also seems it's impossible to drive a straight line. If the actual player really played like this he would be getting sick :tilt: so i can imagine it has something to do with how the code is handled.

Also i talk about behaviour in the latest official patch, not the testpatches. I don't know if they have changed something to the keyboard input lately, seems like stabilized keyboard has something to do with interpolation between far left/right so they might already have a solution for this problem in the recent testpatches? If that's the case i'm so sorry i went on and on about this and being stupid :schwitz:

[Bob Smith]

There is no interpolation (as such) for LFS network packets, the steering system is irrelevant.

[matze54564]

a pc geek who adores his beloved mouse far too much
Yes, i am such a guy :)

Driving with only one hand - this mean the other hand is absolutely free for the watch out buttons.
Mouse X = steering
Mouse Y = throttle and brake combined
Mouse left button = handbrake
Mouse right button = horn or watch back
Mouse wheel = gear shifting up and down
Mouse middle = half automatic clutch
Arrow-Buttons = Watch out

This rocks absolutely more than every wheel!

Mouse steering setup (http://lfscitylife.mplo.de/extrememousesteering.jpg)

[fyber]

omg, at least say why and on which points u disagree. Now we can't have a decent conversation.

You should think about the consequences before making suggestion
LFS would lose many players

[Mille Sabords]

Hi all,
new here on this forum and furthermore demo - maybe taking chances now...
I enjoy this game, demo content is way too much to be free and I should pay for S2 only to thanks the devs for the good time I already had.
Money is not an issue but only credit card available back home is my wife's and the negociations have started poorly at the best, maybe a few more months / years / decades will be necessary.

On topic now
I am limited in this game by a few things and would appreciate assistance:
I play on company laptop (home=mac) good enough for 40+fps is all demo situations so that should work.
I have no space to accomodate a wheel and it would be years before I can do that, plus I would not be able to use it for noise / kids / wife issues. So I use the mouse to steer.
I used keyboard for throttle / brake and clutch / gears, but throttle control is poor - feasible for GTI but no reliable enough for the 2 other RWDs.
I tried mouse Y axis for throttle / brake and I can not get used to it.
I would like to have steer and throttle on mouse axis X and Y, brake on mouse button. I tried separate axis (attached pic) but then I have no brake anymore. This leads to typical demo driving situations :)
Is there a way to have throttle on mouse axis Y and brake on a mouse button?
How is the handbrake working? I could tie hanbrake to a mouse button if it works like the brake for a (frustratingly unrealistic) quick fix.

So this issue is the only reason why I register on this forum now, although I enjoy reading it (at work...) frequent demo bashing makes me reluctant to venture on Jakg and the likes ground (although I love reading Jakg's posts).

Sorry for the long post and thanks to dev team for the game and to the community for making it live.

[Bob Smith]

Afraid not. With a stable set and some practise, mouse steering and button throttle is suitable for for cars than you'd think. I drove with the mouse back in S1 days and it sufficed for all cars, even the LXs with some patience and nimble fingerwork. Given that it's easier to drive over the limit in LFS now, you just need more practise. I still use mouse occasionally and it's quite controllable, though I'w not as good with it as I used to be. For how long have you been playing LFS?

The idea for analogue throttle and digital brakes has been around for a while, a friend of mine used to play with joystick and with the throttle slider on the base, such a setup would have been ideal. I wouldn't recommend using the handbrake.

Basically, just keep at it. You'll get the hang of it in time. If you don't keep trying with the XRG, you'll never get the hong of it. Better yet, try with the XRT, then once you get used to it, switch to the XRG and you'll discover how easy it is, all of a sudden. :)

Good luck convincing the wife.

[auto emocion]

I did have alot of fun with a keyboard.. that's definitly possible, but a wheel is even alot more fun!

Even when you think you won't get used to a wheel.. you will.

I played this game for about 2 weeks with keyboard and bought a g25.. at first it felt wierd and i was getting worse lap times for a longer period than i was expecting for sure! I even doubted if i would get used to it.

Now after some time.. i never ever want to race with a keyboard again, a wheel is a must for this! But make sure your wheel and you are in a good position. For example if your wheel is placed too low, it's way harder to control. (i had to fix that because i have some sort of badly designed pc desk

Good luck!

[Mille Sabords]

Been playing for too long considering I'm still demo user - first download was version Q I think. I Played only offline with some AI (not often, less than 1/2 hour per week) and started online when I received a decent laptop, that was during the W-30ish test patches I think.
During race I can do approx 1.35 consistantly with XFG and 1.36 with XRG - XRT 1.26, usually enough to stay in the 1st half of the pack.
I play a bit more now, this leading to the wife issues :) and went though your setup guides and the forum helped a lot, thanks.

So I will probably carry on tapping mouse buttons for a while :shrug:. RWD are more interesting and rewarding to drive but I like closer races with XFG (until the usual crasher pops up to even chances)

[Mr.Muh]

RWD are more interesting and rewarding to drive but I like closer races with XFG

Same here :thumb: My friend and me literally spent nights with racing the xfg door-to-door when he was still a demo user.

You might consider buying a gamepad, wont take much space and you´ll have 2 analogue sticks to use, however you will have to convince your wife again.
Besides that, a decent gamepad will cost you as much as a Logitech Driving Force Pro wheel, assuming that you live in Switzerland and could order you Dfp in Germany for 34,50 Eur.

Tricky situation :shrug:
family > pcgame :tilt: