Live for slowness

[Ardent]

Hi,

I bought the game some days ago and I have driven almost exclusivly the gti on blackwood because I hardly understand how people get lap times of 1:31...
I played much, in fact a lot more than I actually wanted, but I'm so freakin slow, that I don't dare going online.

I have read the setup stuff, but when I try to edit the setup, it gets even worse ! So I downloaded some setups of 1:31.. people and watched their replays. I was a bit faster then, but still more than 5 seconds behind though I thought, that I did everything like them and feel like I am driving at the limit. My best lap now is 1:36:20, but mostly I have like 1:37...

I see that I have lower speed in some corners (well, all corners...), but when I try to go the same speed as those people, the car will understeer and crash with the same setup !
What am I doing wrong, 5 seconds is so much and I'm so frustrated !

[Tweaker]

Well, not everyone is fast the first time they play this game.... the learning curve is steep for most people. Don't worry about being slow, you're not the only one out there :). I was just as slow as you when I started to play this game... but I eventually reached my peak level months later. It just takes time. I'm no GTi driver, but I know that the GTi at BL is one of the most popular combinations, lots of people get fast times. (Heh I haven't lapped there yet in S2, I still have my S1 pb's)

What controller are you using? (You need to use a wheel and pedals to be fast)

And also, post a replay of your driving so we can see it. We could analyze it and tell you what you're doing wrong. You probably just need some pointers ;).

[danowat]

Dont worry about the Alien times that some drivers post, I have been driving LFS for many years, and the best I can muster in the XFG at BLGP is 1'33:40, and only then with MASSIVE amounts of practice, 1:36 isnt a bad time, you will get faster in time.
Smoothness with the steering is a big help, infact, smoothness on all controls, as I find when I am trying to drive fast I actually get the opposite, where as when I am relaxing and driving smoothly I get faster.

Dan.

[ayrton senna 87]

dont TRY to go fast, just focus on being smooth, and play on all different tracks and cars, and speed shall come, my young apprentice!

[Vain]

And did you try to get a decent setup from setupfield (http://setupfield.teaminferno.hu/)? The standard-setup is plain horrible.

Vain

[al heeley]

Stick at it, Smooth driving really is the key, don't try to force it, I'd be happy to get consistent sub-1.36 laps in the XFG at Blackwood. Smooth, and consistent is the key. And have fun!

And don't allow yourself to get put off by these super fast alien racers, some great fun to be had on-line. Thats what the LFS community is all about.

[Qurpiz]

Ardent, don't worry about going online even if you're 5 seconds slower than WR. I myself am at least 5 seconds slower than the WR in each track/car, but I can still have competetive races. There are other slow ppl too.

[Hallen]

The line, throttle and braking control are all important. Subtle differences in throttle, braking points, braking pressure, and entry point make such a huge difference that you can hardly beleive it. I can run a high 1:32 on Blackwood with consistent low to mid 1:33's, but that comes with a ton of practice. I have over 17k online miles, and I have more than that off-line. I must have raced over 1000 laps on Blackwood (or so it feels), so you can't expect to be turning 1:31's in a few days.

Sets are important, but you need to find a set that feels good to you, and stick with it. If you change sets a lot, you will never adjust and you will continue to struggle.

You are understeering when you try to go faster into turns like the WR guys do because you're not using the same turn-in point, throttle or braking as the WR guys are. It could be the set if it is really bad, but I guarantee you it is mostly your technique. Don't take that as a dis, it just the way it is. We are all in hunt of the perfect lap, most of us non aliens never quite get there. I drove the default setup to a low 1:34 when I thought I had grabbed a set sent by my teammate. Shoot for getting consistent low 1:35's. You will be quite competitive at that speed on a lot of servers and in the lower pools of several leagues.
Look at the hotlap charts. How many drivers do you see there with 1:31's? Not that many when you compare it to how many people own LFS. That is because IT IS HARD TO DO. :D Don't get discouraged, you are doing fine. Keep at it.

Oh, and one more point. Blackwood is EVIL. It is evil because it is the one track every single driver has spent the most time on. It has been analyzed to death. People race it to death. Some guys can drive it with their eyes closed. The top hotlaps are insane.

WOW, there were no replies to your post when I started this message. I have got to learn to type faster! Good work guys!

[DasKlee]

well if you're talking about BL1 in the GTi (which you probably do by looking at the mentioned times) i have to say that i was 1:38+ a few days ago, although in the first sector, i didn't lose much, so i tried other lines (close to the ones in the replays) and suddenly the times dropped rapidly. yesterday i drove a low 1:35 with a race setup and around 35% fuel left in the tank, so even with limited talent like mine sure is, you can still manage to find a few seconds

try out where exactly the car starts to drift/oversteer in the last 3 or 4 cornners and stabilize it by using a little more throttle - since its a FWD, you can 'pull' it out of a slight drift by accelerating

if you know when you reach the point just before it starts to oversteer, try to find the ideal line and you'll see your exit speeds rising by 5-10 km/h

with such a powerless car as the GTi, exit speed is very important and makes or breaks a good laptime

[three_jump]

It's all about practice and experience. When you think you're "stuck" on one track / car, move to the next and hav fun there, just take a break. And when you get back, you'll be faster, it just comes.
It took me month to get into the 1:36 in S1 days and never I thought that I could go faster then a 1:37... (In the end I did a 1:35:5 :D)

Just keep trying :nod:

3j

[NotAnIllusion]

I think that comparing your performance to WR times isn't necessarily the best way to go. 1:31s were driven by people who have been practising at it for absolutely ages and ages, they set up everything for just that one single perfect lap. It's not an ideal way to go about it if you want to do several laps.. :)

Also, as it has been often mentioned, the fastest setups aren't necessarily the easiest to drive. For example, I can drive low 1:32s with my setup and feel comfortable. With Sracer's set.. it's fighting all the way to keep it some sort of order. So: find an easy to drive setup that's perhaps not the fastest. Something you can make do more or less what you intended to.

Some simple tips:
-Locking brakes are bad. Reduce brake strength.

-Fish-tailing under braking is bad. Move brake bias towards front.

-If you understeer into corners, slow down more before and accelerate out.

-Aim for the correct line, first slowly, then increase entry speed to find how fast it can be driven at.

-Smooth braking and turning is vital. Switch from braking to accelerating into a corner too fast and the tail will slide. Turning too hard has the same effect.

-Try braking to just over the speed you'll take the corner at, and slightly earlier. Then roll (no gas, no brakes) through the apex and step on it when there's no danger of going wide.

You could give my set a go. It's pretty fast (can in theory do at least 32.0x), should be quite stable. Increase the rear anti-roll bar if the tail slides in corners. :)

[Ardent]

first of all, thanks for the head-up guys. Just to answer a few details I may have forgot:

I use a ps2 wheel which also works on the pc. That shouldn't be the problem.
Further I am using sracers world record setup (with compound tyres) because my best laps I drove with this setup.

I also should mention that I am not a real life racer like many of you seem to be judging from some forum threads. Actually I drive even slower than my girl friend ;)

I now drove some rounds for you, so you can look at my (non-existant) skills. As you can see, I am slow, but at least I am constant slow ;)

I will now take a more detailed look at your tips and thanks in advance for any feedback to my replay.

[Batterypark]

Increase the rear anti-roll bar if the tail slides in corners. :)

Really?

[Holliday]

Really?

Yeah that doesn't sound right to me either.

[JTbo]

Does anyone apply little bit of brake when at apex in Gti?

I do, I use it to balance understeer a bit, so I can floor it earlier, don't know if it helps with clock but driving is easier and feels faster.

Usually with Gti I tend to turn too much, then also just a little bit of brake helps front to gain grip again.

They use that trick in rally mostly, but maybe few guys on track too.

I'm terrible slow with FWD cars (1:37 in BLGP with Gti), so I don't think that I can tell how to drive fast with those :P

[Gabkicks]

well i actually just lift off. and get the car into a bit of oversteer before the corner and the car slowly comes out of it just after the apex. i think that is the fastest way for most corners with gti and for tighter corners like the 1st corner of blgp, i break hard and after that i lift off for a short time and then slowly ease onto the gass. i take the chicane after that full throttle.

i have my gti set up so that it is pretty damn oversteery for a fwd though :P

[NotAnIllusion]

Yeah that doesn't sound right to me either.

Increasing the rear anti-roll reduces weight transfer when cornering, hence the rear is more balanced..

or

Decreasing the rear anti-roll bar setting makes for more weight transfer. That means the butt swings like a hula-hula dancer's hips.

How does this not make sense, or am I totally off the track.. ? :)

[JTbo]

Increasing the rear anti-roll reduces weight transfer when cornering, hence the rear is more balanced..

or

Decreasing the rear anti-roll bar setting makes for more weight transfer. That means the butt swings like a hula-hula dancer's hips.

How does this not make sense, or am I totally off the track.. ? :)

Have you tested it?

Tighter(increased) rear ARB is more oversteer, or it has been very long time if not changed recently :D

[Tweaker]

Just having a higher rear ARB on a RWD car for example will just give the rear end more twitchyness and should make it easier for you to slide out while in turns or applying the throttle on corner exits. Lower ARB would solve the problem, but make the rear end feel very washy and sluggish... however it feels better (at least to me) because you are in control more. It just is a matter of camber and antiroll to solve some corner grip issues.

The same applies for the front end. Stiffer gives you way more response, at the cost of understeer possibly (you have to have very low negative camber to rid of it). Softer gives again... a washy feel with less responsiveness, but better suited for those who like a loose feel.

Those settings are also all dependant on cars using high downforce, and slicks.... making this only apply to the road cars really...

In this case, the GTi, the best configuration to have for a FWD car is medium-high-stiff front with low/medium camber to get the power down so you wont have understeer or grip loss when accelerating out of corners, and a soft anti-roll rear end that can carry the car through a corner nicely without having unwanted instability... to point you in the right direction when needed.

[Fonnybone]

Like some have said, you shouldn't use WR times to define if you are fast online
or not. WR times are single laps made alone. Those WR holders aren't all great
online and i know a few who can only do a few WR times once in a while but
can't manage to win races that often since they are always pushing too much.
If you can be consistent and maintain times around what you've had so far, i'm
sure you'll be fine. Be smooth, be patient and stay out of the start-to-turn1
tropical storm.

[Ardent]

ok, so after another (felt) 1 mio rounds I managed to get an 1:36:03 round (with NotAnIllusions setup), but the 1:36 seems unbreakable for me. Still I feel I have to get at least 1:34... until racing online, that must be possible, even for me. I'm not even under the first 500 fastest laps with my time.

I will now follow your advice to switch to another car/track. Already tried the xr gt on blackwood, but this car is the horror ! The oversteering is insane, I have yet to complete one round without crash.

I will choose the fz50 on aston club reverse, the car seems fine to control, I tried some laps with standard (race_1) setup and was 7 seconds behind world record. I will come back to the gti later, this is still my main discipline ;)

[Vain]

Hehe, it's interesting that you find the XR GT horrible. I'm quite the opposite. I just can't touch any FWD car without thinking: "This is wrong. So wrong. Wrong!!! WRONG!!!!!" :)

Vain

[Hallen]

Do yourself a favor and check out Bob Smith's Easy Race Setups for the street cars. They are generally well balanced and provide an excellent base for learning on. If the GT had horrible oversteer, it was most likely the set.

[Bob Smith]

The GT rules. It's so easy to drive it's untrue. Yet newbies still struggle to keep it straight... just comes with practise. :)

I always aim to be within 103% of the WR, that seems a good time to aim for (actually isn't that what the benchmark system uses?)

[JTbo]

Weight transfer is one thing that driver need to fully understand, without understanding weight transfer and what it causes to car when driving fast, then it is most likely that car is spinning all the time.

With RWD cars, just start with drifiting and sliding around, put some cones and try to drift around them, soon you will notice how with braking you can shift weight towards front and cause oversteer etc...

I have been working with real car like setup for xr gt so it would be bit more challenging to drift and drive, current one is working pretty ok, but is not even near to completition, when I'm finished it could be quite shock to newbie as car will not stay on track and it will be difficult to go fast, just like real cars are, anyone can drive, but only few can control car at insane speeds.

[Shotglass]

ok, so after another (felt) 1 mio rounds I managed to get an 1:36:03 round (with NotAnIllusions setup), but the 1:36 seems unbreakable for me. Still I feel I have to get at least 1:34... until racing online, that must be possible, even for me. I'm not even under the first 500 fastest laps with my time.

it might be a good idea simply to ignore the fact that you are seemingly slow at the moment and just go onlne and drive a few laps with the gti on bl1 (might be hard to find a good server for that combination these days) i and lost of other people did their best laptimes while following some other faster driver

I will now follow your advice to switch to another car/track. Already tried the xr gt on blackwood, but this car is the horror ! The oversteering is insane, I have yet to complete one round without crash.

ive given this speech a few times before and to my astonishment neither tristan or ian has tried to jump and strangle me for it yet ...
anyway ... to me the besst way of lerning how to gain control over the rwds in lfs is to delibaretly loose the rear end while cornering and trying to keep it steady while going sideways round the corner (also know as drifting best place to practice is the carpark ... try the dfp 900° mode setups you can find on setupfield)
what this will teach you is how to control the movements of the car with countersteering and with the loud pedal (its even better if you own a fdfp because you also lean to be very smooth while drifting the car)
i always though the xrg and expecially the xrt were impossible to handle ... after a few days of practicing on in the car park (as somebody already mentions dont drive too long on one car/track combo ... drive a while then stop let the new thing you learned settle for a while then go back) i started to get that strange feeling that the car actually had too much grip to loose the rear end
now a few weeks later ive even impressed a friend of mine who has years even decades more sim expierence than me with some countersteers in the fo8
but i still like to go back to that xrt in the carpark every now and then after ive spun out in the fo8 or one of the gtrs to remind me of how to do it right

[Fonnybone]

Sometimes it can help to try out the XR GT Turbo a bit. Drive it until you
can take turns without spinning all over the place. Once you get better
at keeping the rear inline, go back to the XR GT. You might find it much
easier to control then. It worked for me.

[Hyperactive]

When I first tried lfs some time back it was a huge problem for me that the car (xt turbo) wanted to go sideways so easily. For example the uphill right just before finish line in BL1 scared the hell out of me! But it didn't took long as I learned that sliding the rear end wasn't always going to lead to a spin. You can have long controllable slides and even change the direction if you know some tricks. Unlike in any other game that calls itself a racing simulator this isn't possible.

I would just try to improve my lines and throttle control. :)

[Ardent]

hehe, thanks for all your tips. I had some fun with the fz50 gtr on aston club, although I didn't break the world record ;)

Now (mainly because of your advertising) I came back to that crazy xr gt and drove a few rounds. You can find them attached, so you have something to laugh at. Yeah, I was raping my wheel to break the 1:40... guess there isn't any chance I will break the world record with that car :P

I believe you that with practise I will be able to handle it and I understand now that this car is favored by the pro drivers because of its high difficulty. I still think the oversteering of rwd's in this game, especially the xr, is way exaggerated compared to reality. If this was realistic, I wouldn't be able to drive my fathers car out of the garage and woman would never get drivers licenses :P

XR stinks :P

[tristancliffe]

The main problem, which is widely known around here, is the way the tyres don't regain grip quickly enough. Once they start sliding they like to keep sliding, rather than suddenly grip. This makes the oversteer seem much worse than it really is. With regards to losing grip in the first place, it seems about right to me, but it's quite hard to judge perfectly with the aforementioned problem.

Bear in mind (no matter what some people say) that LFS isn't finished (i.e. all three stages) and that the second stage isn't yet considered complete either. It's not a 100% perfect excuse, but compared to any other 65% finished game it's pretty good don't you think!

[Shotglass]

The main problem, which is widely known around here, is the way the tyres don't regain grip quickly enough. Once they start sliding they like to keep sliding, rather than suddenly grip. This makes the oversteer seem much worse than it really is.

the problem is even worse from what i can tell ... to me it seems that the cars refuse to regain grip at all right after you begin to slide but once you have kept the car in the slide for a bit they seem to grip again whenever you want them to

[Ardent]

wow, notanillusion's gti setup is really a good one, I now keep getting times between 1:35:34 and 1:35:77, very constantly without any crashes or invalid rounds ! I also had a 0:30:98 in the first split, which pretty close to sracers WR. With the xr I also had a 1:36 lap, but the real problem is to drive constant. That car behaves really unpredictable, I have times between 1:43 and 1:36 and crash every 4 rounds.


Bear in mind (no matter what some people say) that LFS isn't finished (i.e. all three stages) and that the second stage isn't yet considered complete either. It's not a 100% perfect excuse, but compared to any other 65% finished game it's pretty good don't you think!

yeah, actually I know finished (released) games which were in worse condition. That wasn't meant as complaint for the game, but as complaint for the stupid xr :) It controls me but it should be the other way round.

[skiingman]

Yeah that setup is really nice, just turned six laps with it and nailed some 1:34.60-90s with mouse.

back in S1 days when I was a n00b I remember thinking the XR GT was a bear to drive. After spending a lot of time driving Formula V8 and XR, its like a pleasant stroll around the track. Driving it fast is still baffling to me, but just driving it is easy now.

[Blowtus]

it takes a while to get the hang of all the setup options, but you should become familiar with the anti roll bars as quickly as possible. higher front anti roll bars will stop the car spinning out as easily, higher rear anti roll causes more oversteer / spinning. Adjust these until you can drive the car comfortably. Personally I'm most comfortable in an oversteering fwd (where throttle can be used to stabilise it) and an understeering rwd. (heavy throttle can be used to destabilise the car, light throttle will stabilise)
oversteering rwd setups have more potential, but understeering setups can come close and are *much* easier to drive.

[AndroidXP]

Just one obvious thing for rwd cars: shift down LATE and SLOW! Don't develop the habit of quick GTi like downshifting as soon as you brake, it will only make your rear go nuts and pass you.

And because under braking most weight is at the front wheels, engine braking is much less important in rwd cars anyways.

[96 GTS]

wow, notanillusion's gti setup is really a good one, I now keep getting times between 1:35:34 and 1:35:77, very constantly without any crashes or invalid rounds ! I also had a 0:30:98 in the first split, which pretty close to sracers WR. With the xr I also had a 1:36 lap, but the real problem is to drive constant. That car behaves really unpredictable, I have times between 1:43 and 1:36 and crash every 4 rounds.
You are definately fast enough to race online, 1:35 is very good for a fairly new player. Heck, I know guys that have driven tens of thousands of miles in LFS who would be proud of those times. Seriously, don't worry about setting world records, that's a pretty unreasonable goal, unless you want to practice LFS 24/7, just go online, and have fun, no one gets mad at people that are slow, especially if you're in control of your car and pay attention to flags. You're looking like a pretty good LFS driver to me, don't worry, times will only get faster :up:

[tristancliffe]

Nothing wrong with slowness what so ever. We all start somewhere. The only thing that will cause annoyance is being unreasonable. Either by not being careful near other cars, or blocking excessively. Making the same mistake (like not braking into T1) over and over again won't win you favours either.

And this applies to experienced people and new people.

[JTbo]

Nothing wrong with slowness what so ever. We all start somewhere. The only thing that will cause annoyance is being unreasonable. Either by not being careful near other cars, or blocking excessively. Making the same mistake (like not braking into T1) over and over again won't win you favours either.

And this applies to experienced people and new people.

Exactly my thoughts there :)

[LRB_Aly]

At the start i was also slow, i think that's normal enough. everybody has to learn at the start in virtual and in real life. after a few months i became a fairly fast slow driver :) (i know that sounds strange :) ) After i started to drive in the ESL ESCC i focused on the FZR and now i think that i'm a medium fast driver and i've learned much about setups. In fact i drove the XF GTi some days ago, and it's been months since i drived it last time. Well what happened? i almost instantly broke all my hotlap times with this car. But from the start (my start) with S2 until now 3 months passed and i'm still in the learning phase i think.

[Shotglass]

on a side note ... why do all fast gti setups use hybrids nowerdays ? some kind of exploit that im not aware of ?

[Gabkicks]

i still can get in 1:33's with normals and probably 1'32s. i've heard people who get wr times use hybrids because they can hold a higher max g.

[skiingman]

i still can get in 1:33's with normals and probably 1'32s. i've heard people who get wr times use hybrids because they can hold a higher max g.

weird, that doesn't seem like it should be the case.

[Hallen]

i still can get in 1:33's with normals and probably 1'32s. i've heard people who get wr times use hybrids because they can hold a higher max g.
The hybrids get used in the rear. I think they give more grip back there because they actually come up to temperature. They use road normals up front. At least the set I got is that way. It is pretty darned fast.

[Gabkicks]

haha, i'll have to try that. :) once i fix my pedals. how much of a lap time advantage is there?

[Vain]

My impression is that anyone can go online and be competitive when you can beat the (trained) AI in singleplayer.
That means: Let the AI race about 100 laps on a track. Then it will propably know the car/track-combo and drive decent times for the setup given (make sure it's using your setup). When you can now beat the AI laptime-wise and absolute-time-wise you're propably set for online racing. You may not drive the WR, but you have the control of the car and knowledge of the track to soon drive very nice times.
And a small tip about the AI: Put one or two really slow cars on the grid. Their presence will let the AI-drivers learn overtaking.
My AI-drivers, f.e., do 1:38-times on Westhill International in the FOX. Pretty decent. I couldn't decisively beat them until yesterday, when I managed to drive some 1:37-times. :)
Also the AI will help you find good and bad spots for overtaking. People tend to believe you can take over in any place where you're faster, but that's really wrong.

Vain

[tristancliffe]

People tend to believe you can take over in any place where you're faster, but that's really wrong.

Absolutely!!!! That's why we have so many accidents. No one has patience to hold back until an overtaking point, and just try to force their way though a car! If only more people in LFS would sit down and learn to overtake (and that includes some of the aliens ;))

[CharlieP]

Theres a nice idea for us noobs....

A track guide, showing overtaking points, best lines etc.....

A nice jpeg would suit :D

Anyone of the 'good people' up for that ? aliens or otherwise ;)

[Vain]

After about 100 laps the AI has worked out a pretty decent line and rather good braking-points. Copy the AI and you'll be able to keep up with most people. After that learn from other players to improve your line.

Vain

[Shotglass]

is there any good way to learn proper trailbraking ? as far as i can tell my skills when it comes to trailbraking (or rather lack thereof) are the reason my laptimes dont improve
yesterday i gave it a few tries at blackwood with the gti and the fo8 and the results were ... well ashaming and always the same ... heavy oversteer (maybe my driftsessions to lean throttle controll are coming back to haunt me and i instinctively brakedrift instead of trailbrake)
anyway the gti sure has gotten a lot quicker ... somehow i still managed a very sideways 1:36 which i could barely do in 0.5l

[Vain]

Until recently I didn't have a clue how trail-braking works. Looked like black magic to me.
Then I discovered that the setups I sometimes recieved were understeering by nature. That means the car is only balanced while braking. That was my key to trail-braking. Induce a bit of understeer (I'm talking of minimal changes, 1kN is often enough) in the suspension and you will actually have to trail-brake to keep the car turning. Nothing easier than this.
This additional grip on the rear also helps with accelerating out of the corner. :)
Though... I have no clue about setting up downforce-cars. ;)

Vain

[tristancliffe]

The art of trailbraking is one I don't think you can be told how to do really (apart from the initial concept).

Obviously, you brake, but keep the brakes on (a small amount, and reducing as you turn) in order to keep the maximum speed possible, and use the maximum grip available for your tyres.

Some cars/setups like it, others are too unstable to use it. But it comes with practice. I guess one way to learn is to brake say 10m later than normal, and try to get round the corner without running wide or locking a wheel. As you get better then concentrate on keeping your apex and exit speeds high (use the end of the kerbs as good reference points).

Eventually you'll trailbrake without really thinking about it - you just know when and where to do it. If you car is oversteering as you do it, try either a bit more front brake bias, or even braking against the throttle.

Hope it helps, but I'm no driving god, so don't blame me if it doesn't work [/get out clause]

[Gentlefoot]

Don't know about LFS but in the real world I can explain how trail braking works and is something I do to avoid understeer at the turn in point. Tristan is quite right in saying that it can't be done on a car that oversteers off throttle near max speed for the corner. In this case you don't need to trail brake, just lift off. I've tried setting fast times with my Golf set up like this but it just leads to inconsistency unless you have awesome driving skills. Better to have it set up to only oversteer under braking. Much easier for drivers with limited experience, like myself, I admit it :)

When you hit the brakes this compresses the springs and shifts the weight to the front of the car. So, you are heading towards the turn in point of a corner and braking hard to get your speed down. If you try to turn in whilst hard on the brakes you will slide. This is because the tyres only have a limited amount of grip to give. At this point you are using all the grip (longitudinal) to slow the car, so if you turn, the tyres need some grip (lateral) but none is available because you are already using it to brake. This concept is known as the traction circle.

So, you reach turn in and start to lift off the brakes slightly as you turn in. this releases some of the tyres available grip for turning. There is energy stored in the springs because they have been compressed by your braking. As you release the brake, this energy is released and the spring a) pushes on the topmounts, lifting the front of the car back to its static height, b) pushes down on the hubs pushing the tyre into the track surface. This gives more grip and this is trail braking. It may also have the affect of reducing grip at the back, giving you slight oversteer to help you get the nose of the car to the apex.

So, as you turn in, you trail the brake slightly until you reach the apex, avoiding understeer.

Want to know about 'hinting'? Doubt it's been programmed into the game though.

[Shotglass]

Then I discovered that the setups I sometimes recieved were understeering by nature. That means the car is only balanced while braking. That was my key to trail-braking. Induce a bit of understeer (I'm talking of minimal changes, 1kN is often enough) in the suspension and you will actually have to trail-brake to keep the car turning.

yes most fast setups have a strong tendency to understeer at the turn in i always coped with it by reducing the front arb substentially but after ive given it a bit of thought the problem is that i dont trailbrake so i lose a lot of time all the way through the corner
yesterday when it finally dawned on me its time i started trailbraking again i only had little time so i just downloaded some fast gti setups and assumed they were set up for trailbraking (didnt even bother to test if the understeer when i dont) the effect was massive oversteer so i probably turned the wheel too fast and too much (a bad habbit that comes from using setups that arent fit for trailbraking)

but anyway thx for the tips vain and tristan i guess ill just have to try over and over again until i get the hang of it

[Chaos]

Theres a nice idea for us noobs....

A track guide, showing overtaking points, best lines etc.....

A nice jpeg would suit :D

Anyone of the 'good people' up for that ? aliens or otherwise ;)
just use the AnalyzeForSpeed tool to see your line and a reference line (i.e. WR)

[Shotglass]

Want to know about 'hinting'? Doubt it's been programmed into the game though.

hinting ? never heard of it so pls elaborate

[Gentlefoot]

I found in the game (and I only have very limited experience) that fiddling with the damping settings has the most affect during turn in because at this point weight is being tranferred from back to front of the car and back again.

As for hinting, it's a pretty simple thing. I was tought it when I went on a race driving course. It's called hinting because you give the car a hint of what is to come. For example, you are heading towards a corner and about to hit the brakes. Instead of just slamming them on, you touch them gently for a split second before you apply full braking force. This has the affect of giving all the suspension bushes etc (anything that has play) a chance to be loaded slightly. So when you brake hard everything is already in place. Its exactly the same idea with steering. Turn the wheel very slightly a split second before you turn hard.
Hope if explained it adequately.

[Sunday Driver]

Basically I drive my own race and hope to come good through the first corner. Then I don't care much about the people who are 6 or more seconds faster or slower than me each round.

[Shotglass]

i never played much with the damper values ... and i probably wont for at least until i have a simple tool to tell me how much ill mess up a nicely critically damped suspension by doing so (too lazy to work it out myself ^^)

then again you could just tighten those screws properly to reduce play in the bearings gears etc :D

[JTbo]

Absolutely!!!! That's why we have so many accidents. No one has patience to hold back until an overtaking point, and just try to force their way though a car! If only more people in LFS would sit down and learn to overtake (and that includes some of the aliens ;))

:wave: Me, me, me here, patience is key to victory and I'm very glad to see also someone else that has same thoughts in this, I think we are rare cases :)

New ppl could try to brake in different line than one they are tailing, there would be so much less accidents. Usually there is accident because of following too close and when first car is braking second have not even time to touch brake pedal.

We are not F1 drivers (I think?) so we might have bit slower reactions and less ability to control car when close racing so it is better to respect other car's space and concentrate more to own lines and cornering, usually that way it is easier to overtake than following within 5mm from other's bumper.

Also some seem to race with luck, it may be succesful, but I would not recommend it, it is not as rewarding as doing it properly.

But who am I to tell these, I have made probably all mistakes too, just earlier than some.

[KiDCoDEa]

yday i tried 5 laps in gti around bw and did three high 1.32's in a row. so its not that hard. i hadnt run lfs in a while :)
unrusting for the physics buildup :thumb:


ps: should be about same difficulty as running 1.29s on toban long with f3.

[Hallen]

Don't know about LFS but in the real world I can explain how trail braking works and is something I do to avoid understeer at the turn in point. Tristan is quite right in saying that it can't be done on a car that oversteers off throttle near max speed for the corner. In this case you don't need to trail brake, just lift off. I've tried setting fast times with my Golf set up like this but it just leads to inconsistency unless you have awesome driving skills. Better to have it set up to only oversteer under braking. Much easier for drivers with limited experience, like myself, I admit it :)

When you hit the brakes this compresses the springs and shifts the weight to the front of the car. So, you are heading towards the turn in point of a corner and braking hard to get your speed down. If you try to turn in whilst hard on the brakes you will slide. This is because the tyres only have a limited amount of grip to give. At this point you are using all the grip (longitudinal) to slow the car, so if you turn, the tyres need some grip (lateral) but none is available because you are already using it to brake. This concept is known as the traction circle.

So, you reach turn in and start to lift off the brakes slightly as you turn in. this releases some of the tyres available grip for turning. There is energy stored in the springs because they have been compressed by your braking. As you release the brake, this energy is released and the spring a) pushes on the topmounts, lifting the front of the car back to its static height, b) pushes down on the hubs pushing the tyre into the track surface. This gives more grip and this is trail braking. It may also have the affect of reducing grip at the back, giving you slight oversteer to help you get the nose of the car to the apex.

So, as you turn in, you trail the brake slightly until you reach the apex, avoiding understeer.

Want to know about 'hinting'? Doubt it's been programmed into the game though.

That is a wonderful explanation. You really need to add that to the manual Wiki.

I doubt that "hinting" is actually programmed in with bushing preloads and play, but I find that it will help depending on setup. The program definitely models weight shift, and a bit of a hint can preload tires and start the weight shift so it is not so violent, which will usually keep your tires stuck to the pavement.

[Gentlefoot]

Thanks Hallen! That's made my day. Cheers mate!

[JTbo]

What time can be done with default su?

I did now 10 laps and my pb did come down 3 seconds, I had not driven with Gti for very long time, 2-3months or so.

[Racer Y]

My impression is that anyone can go online and be competitive when you can beat the (trained) AI in singleplayer.

Vain

When I got S-1, aside from a couple a console games, I never played any
racing ANYTHING. My driving was so bad, the A.I. voted to ban me.... so I had to learn LFS on multi player :)

[Fonnybone]

yday i tried 5 laps in gti around bw and did three high 1.32's in a row. so its not that hard. i hadnt run lfs in a while :)
unrusting for the physics buildup :thumb:


ps: should be about same difficulty as running 1.29s on toban long with f3.

Ya, but you've been around since the beginning dude! You have the LFS
physics asimilated (spelling... heck not even sure it's a word in english lol).
It's like the saying "you never forget how to ride a bicycle". I'm sure even
after 10 years, you could just jump on a bike and ride it well.

He's trying to get the feel of LFS which is admitedly, quite specific to LFS.
In fact, this is what made me 'fall for LFS', the way things happen as they
do in real life. I wasn't critisizing it's lack of grip at the limit when i first played
LFS, i was simply amazed that a sim actually cared enough about all these
things to simulate them (all of it!). I remember my first drive...

"Oh, and i have settings to play with it too ?!!! Coohhhooooooollll :)"

Others will tell you, the accent is on LIVE and not SPEED, as in, you
will literally LIVE for LFS at one point ;) Better prepare your spouse if you
have one, else you better get your divorce lawyer right now hehe.

[Ardent]

Well, today, when I started to drive I had a fall back in old times and drove 1:37 again :( But on the whole it's getting better I think ...

As for the rwd cars I have now completely given up on them and will leave them to others since I am obviously to stupid for them. Instead I will concentrate on the gti and a few others like the fxr.

Thanks again for all the tips, they helped me a lot together with the wiki help :)

[Bob Smith]

I try not to advertise my own stuff too much (hehe, yeah, shut it) but have you tried my easy race setups from the setups forum here? They have helped people get to grips with the RWD road cars. If you have then... there's no hope for you. :p

[Ardent]

I try not to advertise my own stuff too much (hehe, yeah, shut it) but have you tried my easy race setups from the setups forum here? They have helped people get to grips with the RWD road cars. If you have then... there's no hope for you. :p

I haven't tried them yet, will do (when my frustration about the rwds is gone) maybe, but my problem is not the oversteering itself, but rather the fact, that (as I see it from watching replays) you _have_ to use those massively oversteering setups with the rwd cars to be fast. So that is what I was trying. It doesn't make sense to just drive those cars around the track when you have to change your driving style completely again in order to be fast.

Actually I can hotlap quite ok with them, got an 1:09:3x with the fzr (flotch's setup), but it seems, I have to deal with the fact, that 95% of my rounds end up in the wall, so no way I could ever do a race with them.

[Shotglass]

Actually I can hotlap quite ok with them, got an 1:09:3x with the fzr (flotch's setup), but it seems, I have to deal with the fact, that 95% of my rounds end up in the wall, so no way I could ever do a race with them.

dont worry about that too much ... just do it over and over and over again ... youre already driving at a pretty descent pace ... now all you need to do is work out those little mistakes that send you off track and into the wall ... its a tedious process but one thats worth everly little success you get

[Fonnybone]

Ya, seriously, you are probably faster than me and i don't keep myself from
going online. Sure some guys are fast, but from my experience, some are
slow, some are really slow and some are even dangerous! I'd prefer having
you in the server and have a good race instead ;) Not many people can race
their perfect line in a race so you could be surprised, you might even win a
few ;)

Do S2 people a favor (and yourself obviously) and go online a few times.
If you stick to FWD servers you might be more confortable, but beware, FWD
servers usually also have tough competition as the GTi is probably the easiest
FWD to keep at the limit and it's also the one which people have driven the
most. Some have been racing it for 3 years now...

As for the RWD cars, it always makes me laugh how the younger the person
the harder they find RWD cars. Think of it this way, FWD is relatively recent,
ANYONE over 30 has driven RWD cars. Heck, your grand mother and/or
grand father drove them all the time in rain and snow (and the BAD ones,
not the easy to drive modern rwd cars) and they all managed to live through
it. Most of them will counter-steer naturally and understand the
throttle/turning relationship without really thinking about it. So i say, if your
granma can do it, you can do it too ;)

You need to understand the weight transfer and it's effects to understand
how LFS simulates them, and also where it is NOT simulating them so well.
Driving a few real rwd cars helps as rwd is a feeling that is hard to describe.
RWD cars pivot on the rear axle, so the front 'moves to the inside' when
you turn, whereas FWD cars pivot around the front axle, the rear 'moves
to the outside' as you turn.

In a fwd, the throttle has a direct and almost linear relationship with the
front grip. More throttle = Less grip

In a rwd, the throttle has a complex relationship with grip and that's one of
the main attraction of rwd, this is why it's fun imo. You can reach a point
where more throttle=oversteer but less throttle ALSO= oversteer.
Braking and counter-steering slightly while SLOWLY coming off the throttle
is the only way to reduce it, but you better pray nothing is in your way.
For the more macho, rwd will always be the man's choice. (edit after the following post..)

Rambling OFF.

[Hallen]

For the more macho, rwd will always be the man's choice where fwd is
for girl's.

Rambling OFF.

You were doing great until that last comment:really:

not "girl's" choice, its the "girley" choice :smileypul :D

[Ardent]

some are
slow, some are really slow and some are even dangerous!

yeah, with the gti I'm in group no. 1, with the xrg I'm in group no. 2 while with the fzr, I'm in group no. 3. In a race would be so focused to keep my car on the track, so no way I can watch out for other cars.

I have another technical question for the rwd's. As I can now drive constant laps with the xrg I'm still significiant slower comparing to the gti. The reason is obviously that I have to release throttle on each corner exit to avoid the oversteer of death. Watching the replays I see the guys keeping their foot fully on the pedal. So how do you do that ? tried it with excessive countersteering, but no good.

btw. I also tried bob's setups, but they're giving me a hard time when braking as they will oversteer with no chance of catching the car.

[Shotglass]

to get the xrg to speed out of ther corner under full throttle without excessive oversteer you have to get it into a nice controllable 4 wheel drift before the apex (cant tell you how to do it though since i cant get that thing round corners fast either ^^)

[Rtsbasic]

Gentlefoot, really nice explaination, didn't know what trail breaking was or what it did before this thread thanks. I have been doing this with some cars already without realising..guess I learnt the hard way :)

[Gentlefoot]

Don't suppose you're alone either mate. I find it very effective when using my left foot to do the braking and keeping a tiny bit of throttle on at the same time. This also makes the transition from braking to accelerating and vica versa, shorter and smoother.

[StanleyCarter]

I have another technical question for the rwd's. As I can now drive constant laps with the xrg I'm still significiant slower comparing to the gti. The reason is obviously that I have to release throttle on each corner exit to avoid the oversteer of death. Watching the replays I see the guys keeping their foot fully on the pedal. So how do you do that ? tried it with excessive countersteering, but no good.

excessive countersteering doesn't really work sometimes in a RWD, its the matter of how smooth and how fast you counter steer and "catches" the oversteer.

you're not using a FFB wheel, so it may be hard for you to judge whether the rear tires are starting to skid/slide... its not the matter of how much you countersteer, but how early/fast you made the counter steer when the car is starting to skid or slide. I'm sure in the replays you've watched, those guys didn't really counter too much, but they "catch" their slides fast enough with just the right amount of counter steering, thus eliminating the oversteer in short time.

[Hyperactive]

As to the rwd cars I've noticed some things that most of you know already: Always when riding rwd never pump the brakes or the gas pedal, this just upsets them and then they will kill you shortly. When exiting corner apply some throttle before you fully release the brakes. This makes the transition from braking to accelerating smoother and the fzr specifically needs this.

As most of the fast setups are oversteery they require trail braking as they otherwise have too much grip in their front tires. (yeah, you know this already, but I just had to say it...) And slow in fast out in every corner, if you can't apply enough throttle you have entered the curve in wrong line or just too much speed...

[Gabkicks]

^are you the same hyperactive that regularly destroys me on AS national? :)

Sometimes i pump the breaks slightly towards the end of breaking if i expect locking and understeer.