Rules...

[BenjiMC]

Before the next round the rules will be completly re-writen and organised properly. i'll need help from you guys, ask me questions and find little nitches wherever you can so i can adjust the rules accordingly

[Kim Gripping]

It's really not too soon you're doing this - and can we be sure that you will follow the new rules ( and that you won't make new rules up anytime? )???

I will post what I have discovered asap.

[BenjiMC]

i know it's a tad late in the series, but it needs to be done, and yes i will follow the rules completly, i did today

[Ast]

I had no problems with the safety car, but having 16 cars altogether warming up a few metres behind me made my computer go haywire where i thought that if i go to close behind i would lose control to lag, stay to far back and ruin other peoples races. Especially after the safety car goes as you have clusters of cars some fighting you, some lapping you, and some wanting to pass because they have a chance. My own problems i guess.

Maybe if everyone goes into pit limiter when they see a display because of a crash, then you wont have people causing accidents and you really wont lose that much time getting caught up in a mess.

Nothing is going to suit everyones fancy though.

[BenjiMC]

as much as everyone hates it, the SC is there for a rason, and on SC laps you are supposed to activate your pit limiters.

[srdsprinter]

as much as everyone hates it, the SC is there for a rason, and on SC laps you are supposed to activate your pit limiters.

I did activate the limiter. Then the SC took off towards 90MPH, and I got rear-ended.... :(

[srdsprinter]

No matter how much practice we do, we can't make up for half a minute here, 20 seconds there, 50 seconds there - every time the safety car goes against us.



Why do we race then? If there was no chance, we should have the Qualifying and give away points on speed alone.

Thats life. Sometimes things are going to go your way, other times they won't. You knew the safety car was part of the plan from the begining, you had the opportunity to plan for the likely occurance of seeing it often.

When the safety car message appeared for the first time this race, I slowed down in Sector one, started to check my strategy, etc. Then my teamate on Ventrillo said "wtf are you doing, there is no safety car." I'm not crying about that. The system needs refinement.

[r4ptor]

as much as everyone hates it, the SC is there for a rason, and on SC laps you are supposed to activate your pit limiters.

It's of cause much easier on wider roads, like the up coming KY Nat, but ppl still need to realize they need to be safe.

Safety Car is about guiding the cars at a safe speed though out the track, so it's pretty amazing to see so many incidents while being behind it.

[Leifde]

Why do we race then? If there was no chance, we should have the Qualifying and give away points on speed alone.

Thats life. Sometimes things are going to go your way, other times they won't. You knew the safety car was part of the plan from the begining, you had the opportunity to plan for the likely occurance of seeing it often.

When the safety car message appeared for the first time this race, I slowed down in Sector one, started to check my strategy, etc. Then my teamate on Ventrillo said "wtf are you doing, there is no safety car." I'm not crying about that. The system needs refinement.That was one of the Prawler guys pressing his bind. He got a DT penalty for it. :)

About the safety car, it seemed to be changing speed a hell of a lot. It could just have been those in front but on the straight coming towards the last corner I had to accelerate to about 110mph then brake to about 40mph at least twice, just by following the person in front.

Personally, I say keep the safety car, it comes out in RL and we want to make the racing as close to RL as possible, right? The only thing I would say is make the rules more clear on a situation where you have say, 2, lapped cars following the safety car with people behind them coming to lap them. According to what someone said on the last page, the backmarkers should overtake the safety car. From reading your responses to questions in the 'checkup' thread it seems you can't. :shrug:

[BenjiMC]

well, SC is ment to pick up the leaders, thats why the two lapped cars were alowed through. but as i said, i'm gonna re-write it all before the next round

[srdsprinter]

lol. You hippie. :D Racing isn't about everyone having a chance, it's about speed.





I never said anything about anyone having a chance. Chance as in risk/unknown/uncertainty/being able to adapt change.

[Rooble]

lol. You hippie. :D Racing isn't about everyone having a chance, it's about speed.


I'm not crying either. But what I am saying is the system is silly. Safety Cars are being deployed for pure entertainment value in this league, it has nothing to do with safety. We had about 5 or 6 during this event and it caused more accidents than it resolved (ask anyone who had to follow it).

Maybe it should be called the entertainment car instead.

I partly agree with you on this matter but it wasn't all that bad, we also lost alot of the lead we had built when the SC was sent out. But on the other hand you guys also got help from it, the idea of scrapping the SC now just seems a bit pointless so lets just try to refine the process.

On a side note to the safety car, please whoever is driving it learn how to phucking drive the thing! The standard of driving from the SC was beyond pathetic oh and when its being deployed do not rely on text chat, issue a rcm message so people know when its being deployed.

The race itself went ok, we had a few encounters with backmarkers that seemed to believe they were fighting for position aswell as a few other incidents with other teams.


*cough* CLOWNPAINT WRECKERS *cough* :D

[BenjiMC]

cough ye what an idiot driving the SC... i'll make sure he dont drive the next round, honestly, some people!

[r4ptor]

The experiences are somewhat different - Like, in my case the worst part about the SC was ppl's lack of driving safely behind SC and when we get a green flag.

But, It also concerned me that we got a full course yellow, but no SC were to be seen anywhere. It cased confusion, and confusion + racing doesn't mix well - I carried on in confusion for more than a lap before I started to push again.

Also, I would say that the SC driver need to slow down 15-30 sec before race goes green, so the field can get a chance to get gather up.

When I was behind SC, I saw this - It was on the edge to become bad, but think about how it was for the drivers even further behind.

SC can work, but it need some work and especially ppl need to think about what they are doing while being behind one - and that includes not staying behind SC as the first car, if you aren't the leader... that hurt us bigtime :|

[MARSH2a]

SC can work, but it need some work and especially ppl need to think about what they are doing while being behind one - and that includes not staying behind SC as the first car, if you aren't the leader... that hurt us bigtime :|

We specifically asked about this earlier this week and were told not to pass the safety car.
I was suprised to see Sheppard do it on one SC lap when the SC came out of pit lane right in front of us, only because we were told not to.

@Jack, LOL I'm pretty sure I'm the hippy here.

[BenjiMC]

in the incident when full course yellow was called, there was no SC incident, it was one of the PRWL guys pressing the wrong button:shrug: they got a DT for it.

[KSheppard]

We specifically asked about this earlier this week and were told not to pass the safety car.
I was suprised to see Sheppard do it on one SC lap when the SC came out of pit lane right in front of us, only because we were told not to..

Ya i saw that it was gonna be close as it came out of the of the pits and i assume the SC to not be on the track until it clears the yellow lines. Kinda like if another competitor is exiting they wont be upto speed till beyond the yellows (ya i know "upto speed" is relative at south city) it's the yellows that define the pit area apart from the track area so if an incident happens during the transition the slow car (who's not on the track) is at fault.

I just re-read this and I certainly do not intend this to sould like an appology it's NOT, but just my thoughts. :D

----edit

oh by the way I did see a double yellow in the chat box that i didn't notice get cancelled?

[Humbleridderen]

Safety car and full course yellow is part of the game and it makes the whole thing much more interesting. It is an important factor in the teams strategy. Like in the Champcar series and Nascar, where people are so much more familiar with it. In Europe we are not so much familiar to it, because we watch more Formula 1 and they use full course less than in Nascar and Champcar.

But in any case, rules are the same for everybody. Sometimes it gives an advantage, and other times it doesn´t. Just part of the game. Learn to take advantage from these yellow flag periods!

I´m against that idea, which say that race only is about speed. No way! It´s also strategy, teamwork, consistancy, and much more! :)

[srdsprinter]

in the incident when full course yellow was called, there was no SC incident, it was one of the PRWL guys pressing the wrong button:shrug: they got a DT for it.

Just a thought, I think a "stop and go" or 1 lap pentalty might have been more in order.

With the No Race Chat rule, I expect anything I see in the top corner to be from race control (or driver changes). I slowed way down, letting several teams catch way in on me. I almost made an unplanned pitstop due to another team's misinformation.

I learned my lesson, but to be concentrating on driving, I wasn't concentrating on who was posting the message.

[BenjiMC]

thats why all marshalls use IGTC marshall for their player names, therefore you should on respond if you see yellow and blue followed by full course yellow, either way i'll learn the rcm's properly ready for next race:thumb:

[Humbleridderen]

I don't mean speed as in speed down a straight or speed over 1 lap. The entire concept of racing is the rate at which a task can be completed, be it a lap, a pit stop, team strategy, a race. Racing is about speed. I stick by my guns on that one. :D

Ok, I can agree on the way you put it there, but I like very much the risk of full course yellow, simply because it´s a strategic option. Formula one, Nascar, Champcar and Le Mans has it in real life. It could be interesting to read the "real" procedure and rules about this, so it could be copied.

I know, that those, who are fastest, don´t like it so much, because, they will probable always win, if they didn´t have this full course yellow periods or heavy accidents. But even the fastest guys can work on strategy against each other under these yellow flag periods. The one who is third can because of a very good strategy suddenly lie in front...and the rivals speculations about "do they need a pitstop or not?" is a very exciting aspect of races.

It´s simply much more funny for all, when everybody in the whole field has a chance to gain some positions by strategic skills. Then it´s not just always the same ones, who win. And during a season, there can still be excitement to the final race. It´s so boring when you already know the winner(s) after some few races. Then people can begin not to care anymore..don´t show up etc. :)

[srdsprinter]

I don't mean speed as in speed down a straight or speed over 1 lap. The entire concept of racing is the rate at which a task can be completed, be it a lap, a pit stop, team strategy, a race. Racing is about speed. I stick by my guns on that one.



That about sums up the problem with Sim racing IMO. Nothing against you, your team, or the fine race you put on.

It is a 4 hour hotlap sprint race. You (team) complained when you were caught out by the unexpected (safety car).

There is not enough chance and change in sim racing. The weather, time of day, track conditions, oil and water etc just don't exist (yet). I haven't taken a hard look at it yet, but for the most part, the race was At qualifying pace or within 1 sec/lap for the most part. We all are allowed to push far too hard imo.

If a FZR gets turned into a wall, it could crack a radiator, leaving a trail of water as it limps back to the pits. Pushing as hard as we do, unaware drivers would immediately but put off. http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/ Click SPA 2005.

LFS is too forgiving, nothing against any drivers here. Yes, Racing is about getting whatever done fast as possible. The problem is that LFS lets you go far too hard without any risk or consequence.

[Kim Gripping]

Live For Speed is not suited for endurance racing. It's as simple as that. With no damage that can pull a car out of the race, it will always be a 4 hour long sprint. Technical difficulties, mechanical things that wear out, changable weather, and of course the damage that can force you to stop is what makes endurance racing exciting - LFS hasn't got one of these.

And it's a shame.

I have tried really hard to love rFactor, RACE and GTR2 because of their more realistic features, but it's not as fun as LFS. LFS might not be perfectly realistic, but the online racing is the best out there.

So... What we need... Is S3 :)

[srdsprinter]

Yep, I did enjoy that aspect of NetkarPro (demo). That kind of damage modeling is a start.

If you had that kinda damage with a certain unpredictability, Racing would really be improved... at least for endurance.

Alas, till then let the, Brake at the exact same point, Massive Engine Braking, Flat Shifting, Hot Lapping continue! :)

I am looking forward to the possibility of multi-class racing in the near future. Add to that potential reward weighting, larger possible fields... Good things in the near future for LFS.

[87TIIV8]

I would like to see a rule in place for the number of laps a car can run without serving a penalty. If we are allowed to take as many laps as we like before serving the penalty (like bawbag did last round), it is possible to create a situation where effectively the penalty has no punitive impact (ex waiting until you have a big gap to the car behind you, a safety car period etc). Also, if a driver has a drive through penalty and commits another offence, how do the officials indicate to him that he has yet another drive through? Again, this can create a strategic advantage.

In real life racing (not other sim leagues necessarily) a driver has a very small number of laps to obey a black flag (indicating some sort of penalty) or they will be excluded from the event (timing and scoring will cease scoring them).

[BenjiMC]

Rules are complete. i've added some in places and adjusted others. plus added a little not to the end of the rules regarding loop holes. Rules should be attached to this post. rules are subject to change

[srdsprinter]

Nice!

I'm glad to see safety car periods have mandated the limiter, so i don't get rammed again... :)

[tomylee]

3.2) if a member of a team wishes to do a driver swap, they may only join the server once their team car is in the final sector of the lap.

I think this rule we can take out. There are now 47 slots so I would say that every team can have 2 guys on the server (one driving and one spectating).

[srdsprinter]

I think this rule we can take out. There are now 47 slots so I would say that every team can have 2 guys on the server (one driving and one spectating).
I like the idea, but in practice it seems lots of connecting/disconnecting can interupt some people's connections. Plus it would very difficult to determine who is who's spotter/driver, as ~5 of the entries are 2 car teams, and to my knowledge the connections list is not sortable (very difficult to quickly find names). More connections adds a little burden to the drivers changes on the big connection list.

[tomylee]

I have never really seen any problem because of the connection and disconnection from people.
For those teams wh have two cars on the grid they have 4 slots. How they sort it is their problem not the problem of the admins.
And for the driver change, I don't think this is really a problem. You have enough time to look that up.
Maybe we can add a certain rule so that not every minute somebody is coming and going. Like the next driver can come when ever he likes and the driver who just finished can stay how long he likes to (of course not both at the same time).

It just would be so stupid that there can just be one for each team when we have so many free slots.

[srdsprinter]

You'll have to ask Benji, and while you might not get disruptions from join/leaving, others might.

[tomylee]

You'll have to ask Benji, and while you might not get disruptions from join/leaving, others might.
Look, a new driver has to join and the old one has to leave at one time. So if they do that a bit earlier or later it will not bring any problem with the connection for others.

[bdshan]

I think this rule we can take out. There are now 47 slots so I would say that every team can have 2 guys on the server (one driving and one spectating).

I am new to this series, but is seems to me that joining in the last sector before the driver change is a bit restrictive. The norm is anytime during the lap prior to the driver change.

If my teammate tries to join in the last sector before our first driver switch he may not have enough time to download all the required skins.

I agree with tomylee here. With a 47 connection server and only 15 teams competing, giving everyteam 2 slots seems managable.

[tomylee]

Even one lap is quite short. I see no problem when he joins 10 or 15 minutes earlier.

[srdsprinter]

Benji runs the show here, I'm just leaving my $.02:

We have ~23 teams signed up for the series. So theorhetically, under what you want, 46 drivers could have legitimate right to server spots. But with at least 2 marshalls on the server, some teams wouldn't be able to have a spotter, so it wouldn't be fair to everyone.

[tomylee]

I see 22 :scratchch

And when I look at the races before, there never showed up 100%
And if we have 23 teams. The time frame should be at least 5min. There will be never 23 teams changing at the same time.

[srdsprinter]

Right, but do you want rules written to promote expansion or limit the race to ~20 teams?

[tomylee]

No I don*'t but right now we do not have that many so why not using those slots.

[BenjiMC]

because i'd have to change it after IGTC gets more teams and i cba maybe? :p, tbh with the new slots it'd not so important to come in on the last sector, added to the fact that connection take time with the new patch. BUT the rule still stands, but maybe it can be expanded to on lap rather than the last sector. That rule was ripped from MoE so it's been tryed and tested and works no real need to change. :thumb:

[tomylee]

OK. Let's say 5min :tilt:

[BenjiMC]

ok, we can run 5 mins for this event due to the low turnout and see what it is like. :thumb:

[Leifde]

Just clarifying something here - the person who qualifies does not have to do the first stint?

Also start time, qualifying starts at 8:15pm BST?

[BenjiMC]

8:00 BST and a 15 min break between qually and the race. the qualifying driver doesn't have to do the first stint

[AppiePils]

10.2) Shift+S is not allowed, this results in an instant DNF. Running out of Fuel is a DNF.


Shift+P is allowed? ;P


What happens if one is stuck in the sand? (stating this as a XRR driver). Will you get pushed out of the sand or?

[BenjiMC]

yes, this has been discussed earlier in either this thread or the suggestions thread, RB4 is the push car :thumbsup:

[srdsprinter]

Appie does have a point that the command has been switched to Shift+P. Rules should be updated just to keep up to date. GL today! :)

[BenjiMC]

i'm sure i did, i hate freewebs!

edit: i knew i did, i did it when i added the clarrification rule and the rule about cutting. where did you get that copy from appie?

[AppiePils]

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=413713#post413713

I presume these are the latest rules?

On a second note: you get pushed out of the sand. Is it allowed to send a message stating: Stuck in sand (or some equal) or do you have to wait in the hope a marshall will notice it?

[srdsprinter]

www.igtc.co.nr

has the rules. :)

[BenjiMC]

the rules are on the website, that doc was one i was working on and posted here for people to review and comment on.

Yes you will have to wait for a marshall to see it then the SC will be called out.

[tomylee]

What rule is that, getting pushed out of sand? :schwitz:

[srdsprinter]

As per many sports car series

[tomylee]

really, never seen it :tilt:

[BenjiMC]

it's true, they use tractors or things like that with ropes though IRL

[srdsprinter]

It shouldn't be too large a concern, because chances are by the time the caution comes out and the RB4 finally gets there, you would have lost quite a large amount of time.

F1 doesn't have it because the cars use remote starting, and once they loose the ignition they're done.