FE2 Cutting

[LFSn00b]

Hello

I was racing today on STCC 1(UF1) server.
I saw someone cutting the chicane after the "T1-Chicane" in the server.(See attachment 1)

I found an idea how to stop the cutting.(See attachment 2)

Would you like this idea? :razz:

[Jakg]

how on earth is driving on grass there faster?

EDIT - You even need to drive on the gravel

[LFSn00b]

By driving faster to the curve - more speed - cut - and to the tarmac - then to the curve.

[Jakg]

yes, but surely the grass and gravel gives more drag?

[U4IK ST8]

I have seen this too while racing with the UF1. The thing is, the person doesn't have to brake as much when they take the cut so they are actually going faster on the grass than you are on the track, then they get a better line for the next corner, up the hill, which leads to a longish straight, where they will, as a result of the cut, get to a higher speed.

[SamH]

I saw someone cutting the chicane after the "T1-Chicane" in the server.
Can you submit the replay to the STCC report system, please. http://licence.ukct.net/report.asp

Thanks :)

[mrodgers]

I have "cut" that area myself before, but it was due to missing the braking point of the first corner there. And, I slow down, watch for traffic the best I can and reenter the track when that happens rather than blasting through using it to my advantage.

Isn't there tire barriers there already?

[U4IK ST8]

That's what everyone says when you say it to them about cutting, "oh I missed my breaking point". I have missed my breaking point there many times but still managed to hold it and drive on the track side of the tires.

BTW, the line LFSn00b shows isn't exactly the line taken when people cut that corner. See attachment. And there are small groups of tires, but no barriers, with enough space to get through without hitting them.

[tiagolapa]

Thats not cuting, thats losing time..:ices_rofl

[Becky Rose]

I've gone off there myself before now, it's an easy corner to get wrong and go wide on. The problem with putting obscructions there is that cars which do go wide would strike them.

There are other factors too, such as the overhead caused by so many physics objects.

As things stand the Fe Green layout is actually about to get some attention on it, as i'm going to set the layout for the STCC event there. During the build up the servers will run the STCC league race layout.

Afterwards this issue can be raised again.

Deliberate cutting is something we act on when we receive reports of it.

:)

[LFSn00b]

So i sent a replay about the cutter. :)

[AndroidXP]

Well, you went a bit (a lot) over the top with the amount of obstacles put there :p
A few tyres would be enough, I mean, you don't have to make going there impossible, it should just be slower when doing so. Tyres or haybales are also much safer then these red-white barriers of doom, which would send a racer who honestly missed the brake point on a quick trip over the fence.

[SamH]

So i sent a replay about the cutter. :)
tyvm :)

[Kdovi]

Tyres or haybales are also much safer then these red-white barriers of doom

+1, barriers are dangerous for other drivers too

[SamH]

I've added bales and tyres. Nothing excessive.. just enough to make that particular cut, shall we say, "less appealing" ;)

[LRB_Aly]

While practicing for the next race I also gone wide sometimes there, but It didn't really give me an advantage. I always had trouble when rejoining the tarmac, I've got nasty understeering and had to slow down (at the end the time gaining of the grass section and the time loss on tarmac added up).

[SamH]

While practicing for the next race I also gone wide sometimes there, but It didn't really give me an advantage. I always had trouble when rejoining the tarmac, I've got nasty understeering and had to slow down (at the end the time gaining of the grass section and the time loss on tarmac added up).
Yep. If you actually deliberately take that line, rather than find yourself running it accidentally, you can easily gain track space in the process. When you do it by accident, you've probably lost some pace in the process of finding your way there, and so the overall experience is a poor one.

It's quite easy to line yourself up to cut there, and gain from it. It's a straight line. Well, it WAS.. now it's not :)

I don't think the bales and tyres will be necessary for the STCC event, since the stewarding will most certainly fry and serve up any driver who cuts at that point. They 1) would get caught, and 2) wouldn't consider attempting it in the first place anyway. I've put the bales there, now, for public racing, where one or two drivers out there are less.. honourable. :shrug:

[LRB_Aly]

Yep. If you actually deliberately take that line, rather than find yourself running it accidentally, you can easily gain track space in the process. When you do it by accident, you've probably lost some pace in the process of finding your way there, and so the overall experience is a poor one.

It's quite easy to line yourself up to cut there, and gain from it. It's a straight line. Well, it WAS.. now it's not :)

I don't think the bales and tyres will be necessary for the STCC event, since the stewarding will most certainly fry and serve up any driver who cuts at that point. They 1) would get caught, and 2) wouldn't consider attempting it in the first place anyway. I've put the bales there, now, for public racing, where one or two drivers out there are less.. honourable. :shrug:

Actually I sometimes was cutting through intentionally and still didn't gain time. Don't get me wrong I've cut through to avoid the stupid AI, not to gain an advantage.

[Zachary Zoomy]

its really bumpy in there with the UF1 and XFG. its not really worth the cutting. perhaps on the reverse track but I've never gained time.

[IceMan31x]

By driving faster to the curve - more speed - cut - and to the tarmac - then to the curve. hey m8, remember the WR is turned without a single cut or tire smash or anything, if you can beat the WR by cutting there, i want the replay :razz: wont happen:thumbsup:

[Dru]

hey m8, remember the WR is turned without a single cut or tire smash or anything, if you can beat the WR by cutting there, i want the replay :razz: wont happen:thumbsup:

if you 'missed your braking point - you go for a slow trip trough that section and you therefore ARE slower, if however you don't brake back at the 75m marker you carry way more speed in there and you do exit MUCH quicker that taking a non-cutting line.

several people do 'ocassionally' take that line when i was on the STCC with UF1 but not - flat out DELIBERATE cutting

[LFSn00b]

I've added bales and tyres. Nothing excessive.. just enough to make that particular cut, shall we say, "less appealing" ;)Thanks :)

[MyBoss]

In the mini chicane on FE Club before the last turn there is allso some HEAVY cutting.

Things like that is irritating me, because it means I have to do it to to be able to keep up, because if I don't do it the guy in my ass wil be all over me if I drive the correct line. And then, if I do it, someone else will do it and so on.
BAH

[SamH]

In the mini chicane on FE Club before the last turn there is allso some HEAVY cutting.

Things like that is irritating me, because it means I have to do it to to be able to keep up, because if I don't do it the guy in my ass wil be all over me if I drive the correct line. And then, if I do it, someone else will do it and so on.
BAH
The answer is to save the replay of people cutting, and submit it at http://licence.ukct.net/report.asp. This way, it's guaranteed that they won't keep the points they gain by cheating :)

[Dru]

In the mini chicane on FE Club before the last turn there is allso some HEAVY cutting.

Things like that is irritating me, because it means I have to do it to to be able to keep up, because if I don't do it the guy in my ass wil be all over me if I drive the correct line. And then, if I do it, someone else will do it and so on.
BAH

gonna have to disagree with you. Just cause somelse doe's it do'es not mean that you have too.

I got a lot more satisfaction on the STCC servers by coming second to a cutter or trying to keep a cutter behind you racing that 'joining him'.

Mimicking is a sign of respect/flattery, therefore if you copy the cutter, you are showing them that their actions are acceptable and they'll continue to do it.


I remember also clearly a race where a guy cut all the time and won the race, i assked after the race why he cut, his response was, i don't cut, only when the tyres and bales are there i drive straight over and cut :shrug: :scratchch Honestly....... lol

[The Moose]

I got a lot more satisfaction on the STCC servers by coming second to a cutter or trying to keep a cutter behind you racing that 'joining him'.

Whilst i agree fully with not doing as they do, it's not a case of coming second to the cutter.
The other night on the experimental server at FE club there was a full grid, and the bales were never there at the last chicane because nearly everyone (well, at least a huge amount ) was cutting it, and it was impossible to race fairly.
Both Sam and Becky were present on the sever yet nothing was said. I ended up cutting it as well a few times, felt bad about it ,and ended up leaving the server as it just wasn't fair and sporting racing.

I'll happily finish a race dead last if i've been beaten fairly by everyone..but that was just silly.

[SamH]

That was the first night we'd got the W10 server up and running, I think, Stuart. We were still getting the layouts in to the correct dedi server directories, and I think we were paying more attention to getting the software running and the config files set up than checking for cutting :)

[The Moose]

That was the first night we'd got the W10 server up and running, I think, Stuart. We were still getting the layouts in to the correct dedi server directories, and I think we were paying more attention to getting the software running and the config files set up than checking for cutting :)

Yeah, fair shout Sam...and it was pretty much a one off occurrence. it's certainly not something I've seen much on STCC tbh.

I wasn't having a dig at you guys <group hug>:razz:

[SamH]

hehe I didn't think you were having a dig :)

[Dru]

Yeah, fair shout Sam...and it was pretty much a one off occurrence. it's certainly not something I've seen much on STCC tbh.

I wasn't having a dig at you guys <group hug>:razz:

The ZWR boys were on there the same night and it's true it was a bit chaotic due to people getting up to speed wit hthe new ballests etc etc, also on such a small track 28 cars fill it up very quick ,thats like what one ever 2 seconds, therefore if someone does have an incident then its likely that some one will have to make drastic movements which the orignal guy id recovering, which then could and did cuase chain reactions and so on and so forth..

[The Moose]

^^^^^

Yup, i was having a moan without thinking. Not for the first time either ;):D

Note to self:- Think before you speak. :razz:

[The Moose]

Something needs to be done about the chicanes at KY GP. The cutting going on there is ridiculous. I saw several record times there tonight achieved by huge cuts.
I was so pissed off that i left and forgot to save the replays, and i wont mention his name on the forum, but seriously, some tires/bales whatever need to go up on all the chicanes because it's blatant cheating.

I happen to know the guy is pretty damn fast anyway, but all respect for his skills just went straight out the window.

[SamH]

Ello Moosey! I've uploaded two KY3 layouts tonight.. one each direction, which should solve the problem. It's well-established how we feel about cutting, so if you know anyone who has a replay, we'd certainly like to see it.

Cheers..

[Mackie The Staggie]

I happen to know the guy is pretty damn fast anyway, but all respect for his skills just went straight out the window.



How many times, wear those seatbelts kids.......:schwitz:


I'll get my coat.

[Neil777]

Just seen some more cutting on FE black at the chicane before the start/finish straight.

[SamH]

Just seen some more cutting on FE black at the chicane before the start/finish straight.
http://licence.ukct.net/report.asp :)

[col]

I wish more people would use the report form when they see bad driving and cheating...

If all the circuits end up with huge stacks of 'physics objects' at every chicane, I won't be able to race them. My elderly system can just cope with a large field in a normal race... as soon as someone piles into a big stack of physics objects the frame rate drops to an unacceptable level (I'm talking single figures).

Then of course there's the fact that on a smaller track, once the obstacles have been hit, they stay off until the nearby track is clear - in which case they're useless.
And the problems that happen when someone loses it and ends up in the bails - the road gets filled with bails and tyres, it becomes a lottery who gets through clean and who gets catapulted into the sky :)

+1 for 'use the reporting system'
-1 for 'stacks of physics objects'

[SamH]

col, yeah.. I'm aware that some of the "fixes" are a bit heavy on physics objects. I've been toying with the idea of using automatically-spectating marshal points, but I have to admit I'm reluctant to introduce them. People shouldn't be cutting, but I'm aware that sometimes people don't get the option. To remove them from the race because they stray too far off the Yellow Brick Road by accident is harsh, and I'm really hesitant to introduce it. It'd be really nice if we could set marshal areas that issue time penalties rather than send drivers to spectate.. then we could mark the boundary with a single red cone, and be done.

I wonder if it's too late to ask Scawen for that, if it's not already been requested. I'll look into it..

[jasonmatthews]

Hi, I was playing on ctra1b on fegreen in the uf1 and there were tyres in the chicane. This made the race almost unplayable, causing crashes constantly. It was impossible to finish a race at all as some noob would hit the tyres taking the whole leading pack out every time. I cannot understand why you would make a perfectly good track into wreckers paradise!! Surely if you are going to put tyres there they shouldn't be on the racing line?
I gather from the previous posts that people were cutting but surely that is better than everyone crashing? Everyone who was present on the server complained also.....

[Becky Rose]

The tyres where introduced at Fe Green to solve a problem with people crashing and causing major pileups.

Whilst on the one hand when they are first seen they can be a bit of a surprise, the general census was that they improved the situation quite a lot.

In short, it's a question of which is the lesser evil.

Fe Green is a great track characterised by stationary cars all over the track on the chicane exit. We removed that problem by lowering the speed of the problem, but we dont have the tools to completely remove the issue.

[STROBE]

when they [the tyres at FE Green chicane] are first seen they can be a bit of a surprise
Well that's one way of putting it.

I think the more accurate way would be my thought process when racing on a track I thought I knew for the first time, which was "jesus ****ing christ, who the **** put all these ****ing tyres on the ****ing racing line?!" ;)

I can see why there's a need to prevent cutting at that chicane, but can't that be achieved by putting tyre stacks just on the apexes of the chicane kerbs? I don't understand why there's more tyres on the left at the exit than at a Kwik-Fit garage, and nearly every lap they get bounced all over the track making it (as previously mentioned) a complete lottery for any drivers following.

[col]

Well that's one way of putting it.
...I don't understand why there's more tyres on the left at the exit than at a Kwik-Fit garage, and nearly every lap they get bounced all over the track making it (as previously mentioned) a complete lottery for any drivers following.

Yes, this can be particularly bad and is made much worse by the way multiplayer system works...
The fastest line involves just missing all the tyres, however, because of lag and 'prediction' just missing them on your local pc may translate to hitting them hard enough to move them on one or more other machines.... then as the pack fire on through behind (you hope you are in front), some guy with no tyres on his system may be piling through tyres that are in the road on another system... causing them to perform supaPhysics™ antics.. whith so many tyres and so many cars, it can be mayhem - even though nobody actually 'hit' the tyres !!

A better example is the second last turn at FEclub - I went through there recently and saw the guy in front steam through the barricade... oddly he didn't seem to lose the car - he didn't even slow down !
My guess is that a car in front of him just clipped the barrier, by the time he reached it those objects had disapperared - unfortunately on my system, they had not, so when that driver in front of me cut through the space, on my machine he was hitting the bails and scattering them accross the track !
Big problem there is that you can take a legal line (two wheels on track - track includes curb) that if the bails are there means you hit them, so for some drivers the way is clear to take the optimum line, not realising that on the guy behinds system, they may be filling the road with obstacles... and the guy behind him is wondering why the hell he is swerving all over the road like a maniac :)

This is all guesswork - maybe these things have happened for some other reason.
Am I correct in thinking that physics objects can behave differently on all the multiplayer clients in a race due to fractional differences in car positions on the different client systems?
If so, then its another considerating when employing barricades.

FWIW, I like the ones thet prevent serious cutting e.g. final chicane of FEGold - they seem to work and don't change the racing line.
But not the ones that change the line through chicanes and add more objects just making it worse when they do get hit.

[Becky Rose]

I don't understand why there's more tyres on the left at the exit than at a Kwik-Fit garage
Sounds like CTRA are not using the original STCC layout, but one I threw online for testing. I shall mention it to Sam, the one that worked best may still be on the server somewhere.

[SamH]

I'll have a rummage for it. The one we're using at the moment may be an early experimental STCC one. I definitely didn't create it. :)

[word.]

I took some pictures while spectating on the CTRA copper and bronze server last night. 56K warning.

Here is what it normally looks like in single player:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/1-4.jpg

Here is what has been added on the CTRA servers:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/1-2.jpg

Here was a crash caused by the tyres placed on the racing line at the exit of the complex:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/1-3.jpg



From a different angle:

Clean
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/2-3.jpg

CTRA
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/2-1.jpg

Another crash caused by the tyres placed in the middle of the racing line:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/2-2.jpg



I did some quick testing in single player. Here are some pictures of what I found the fastest way I could take the corner to be:

First apex:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/3.jpg

Second apex:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/3-1.jpg

Where I ended up on the exit. That piece of road there just has to be used, or one must brake after they exit the chicane.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/biohazard_nz/3-2.jpg

[Slopi]

IMO, blocking the entire curb with tires and the exit line with that wall of tires is hell. Many times people have accidents due to hitting the tires on the exit line. Other times people take the exit line and obliterate the tires and cause hell for everyone else comming through the chicane. The tires on the curb shouldn't be there because curbs are drivable surfaces, they should be blocking the cut through the grass though.

Just my 2 cents :)

Edit: As you can see in the above screenshots, you can fit an entire car onto that curb... that's a lot of extra T1 space that's become much more hazardous.

[Iron]

Where I ended up on the exit. That piece of road there just has to be used, or one must brake after they exit the chicane.


No, it doesn't have to be used. Simply take the chicane slower, until you don't ram into the tyres. That's the purpose of that modification, after all...

[Becky Rose]

Here was a crash caused by the tyres placed on the racing line at the exit of the complex:
I do believe the tyres where there first, and did not move. They did not CAUSE the accident, you can drop that line for a start! Thats the race circuit its your job as a driver to complete it - not to change the track to suite you.

However, that is the wrong layout. I will see if I can find the right one.

[SparkyDave]

IIRC the other STCC layout has more objects in the road at the 1st apex than the few tyres and cones in those screenshots above :)

Whatever the layout, its important as a driver to choose a speed and line that dosen't impede your control over the car, and preferably one that dosen't strike or move any objects into the path of following cars.

The layouts are there for a good reason, and well done to the people that take the time to make and place them (Sam / Becky) :)

SD.

[The Moose]

Yup, the other layout has more objects at the entrance to the chicane. But i really don't see the problem:shrug:.
As Sparky says, just pick a line and speed that gets you through safely.Not so hard is it?
I tend to treat any extra objects as if they were a solid barrier and avoid them at all costs.

The only legitimate gripe i can see is the fact that when a load of physics objects go flying it slows down some peoples framerates, but i see no reason at all for moaning about them from a racing perspective.

[Swiss_Tony]

My only concern is that these tyres/cones shouldn't be on the kerbs. (As Slopi noted earlier) IMO the kerbs/rumple strips are legitimate driving areas of the track and an obstacle on those areas just destroys the natural flow of the track. Anything else off track is fine by me as you're not supposed to be there anyhow.

A rule of thumb here could be that an obstacle should not be anywhere on the track that would not incur a "hotlap" failed lap.

[SamH]

I gotta disagree, Tony. Once a layout is in place on a track, the layout IS the track. If you can't negotiate it then you're driving at an inappropriate speed. The boundaries of the track are whatever the layout says they are, not what the hotlapping system says.

[Swiss_Tony]

Fair enough Sam. If you say this is the track available, drive it, then so be it. I was under the impression however that the purpose of additional obstacles was to prohibit corner cutting, not to redesign existing layouts :shrug:

[SamH]

I've just changed the layout for this particular track because Becky pointed out that it was the incorrect one. I haven't checked to make sure that the one Becky's given me includes the anti-cutting additions. I'm assuming it does, though. The layouts for the CTRA servers are based on the layouts used in the STCC league/broadcast, but with additional barriers to prevent cutting on public servers. Those components aren't needed for the STCC league because we go around to errant drivers' houses, steal their first-born child and sell it on for scientific research (aka STCC sponsorship deal) ;)

[darkfate]

I would suggest change it back since the new layout realy just makes more crashes then beffor :/ and kinda ruiens the felling of a race its more or winning a lottery if you get out of that turn alive or not :D

(btw im back on fox again^^)

[LordBlaster]

...Once a layout is in place on a track, the layout IS the track...

i go with you, but could you please reset the records from this track???

they are made with no layout at all....

if this has already been made, sorry for this post, just ignore it ;)

[Becky Rose]

That's not the right layout either... hmmm I think we've lost it.

[niall09]

why dont ye just leave the layout as the default one, it is much smoother then :)

[SamH]

Records for FE2 are reset (let the points-fest commence).. I'm in search of the correct layout.

[eeeedit] Correct layout found.. uploaded.. ready to use :)

[dj-fluxsa]

no niall ppl will jus go straight through if u use defalt:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

[niall09]

no niall ppl will jus go straight through if u use defalt:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

well tbh its better than a big crash at t1 :shrug:

[Jakg]

...because you get massive accidents at T1 with the tyres. As i've just found out. In a league race. :(

[Becky Rose]

Yup, the correct layout is now on and at this moment is active on server 2a Silver & Gold. It's a much better layout, which has a narrower entry to turn 1 to bring speeds down and prevent the daft accidents. After 1 crash you should have it down pat - it's a lot less likely to result in incidents.

[SamH]

Yep, we just did an STCC league race with NO layout.. believe me, you want the layout!!!!

[AndroidXP]

Yeah, the layouts (from what I can remember) certainly reduce the danger of that chicane. People might have problems the first time they see it, but in the long run they should make racing there much better.

The problem of the chicane is not so much the cutting itself, as in the time you gain by it, but rather the result of cutting gone wrong. The combination of steep kerbs with tyres can easily result in a barrel roll if you were off by just 5cm. The layout drastically reduces the speed, removes the danger posed by the steep kerbs and discourages stupid overtaking moves. The price to pay is obviously more moveable objects in case something still goes wrong, but at least those tyres have less mass than three cars flying all over the place...

[Jakg]

hitting the kerbs along will NOT roll you, but they may put you in the air long enough to land and not have enough to recover and hit the wall - hitting the tyres is what will flip you

[niall09]

I can never make a sensefull post, can i? Anyway, on FE2, atleast with the ;ayout that is there, maybe there should be a bit less tyres and objects?

[AndroidXP]

hitting the kerbs along will NOT roll you, but they may put you in the air long enough to land and not have enough to recover and hit the wall - hitting the tyres is what will flip you
That's why I said 5cm off. 5cm as in 5cm too far left to not hit the tyres :p
The kerbs just greatly encourage the flipping. Actually just getting the kerb bouncing wrong and crashing into the wall is usually not that catastrophic - sure it might totally wreck the car of the poor sap who did it, but he at least has a chance to keep the car under control and not ruin the races of half the field. If you're rolling over the track, you can't do anything but hope that everybody will be able to avoid you.

[SamH]

I can never make a sensefull post, can i? Anyway, on FE2, atleast with the ;ayout that is there, maybe there should be a bit less tyres and objects?
The one that's there now (recently uploaded) is the result of extensive testing.

@Jak, I don't think the tyres are necessarily entirely responsible. I think you can barrel-roll without hitting the tyres, or perhaps just glancing them. I think the problem with the default chicane is a combination of speed, shifted mass and high kerb. Those at LEAST can put you on your side. I think glancing the tyre might put you back on your wheels after a full roll.

[Jakg]

you can put it on it's side with a bad line and a LOT of G's, but you certainly wont be the first LFS car in the space race with it

[niall09]

The one that's there now (recently uploaded) is the result of extensive testing.


ok, great work mate ;) And thanks for reading my meaningless post :tilt:

[SamH]

ok, great work mate ;) And thanks for reading my meaningless post :tilt:
Used to it.. I talk to Jak a lot ;)

[STROBE]

Well I do believe I've just experienced the new, improved FE2 chicane, and yes, it's better than putting a stack of objects on the exit of the corner.

I do believe the tyres where there first, and did not move. They did not CAUSE the accident, you can drop that line for a start! Thats the race circuit its your job as a driver to complete it - not to change the track to suite you.
I was under the impression however that the purpose of additional obstacles was to prohibit corner cutting, not to redesign existing layouts
However I have to disagree completely with Becky here and agree entirely with Swiss Tony. According to Becky's reasoning on track objects, the CTRA could use the red and white barriers to place a chicane in the middle of a straight and expect us to negotiate it, but if I wanted to do autocross, then I'd join an autocross server. Maybe I'm being a bit naive on this, but when I join a public server running (in this case) FE2, I basically expect it to be the FE2 I know. By all means use objects to prohibit corner cutting, but I'm just not keen on the idea of using them to radically transform a corner or chicane.

Still not sure why objects can't be put off the track, in places where you'd only hit them if you were cutting beyond the kerbs anyway. :shrug:

[SamH]

Well, two things here.. firstly, Becky is entirely right. The track is the track. It's up to you to negotiate it. The tyres/barriers were there first and didn't move. As a racing driver, you have to meet the challenge, just as everyone else on track with you must.

Secondly, the purpose of this particular chicane layout (FE2) is to resolve a problem with the structure of the default track. You cannot negotiate that chicane reliably. It is a hazard. The layout we've added to that chicane makes the chicane more predictable. You have to slow down, but so does everyone else, and you have to be more careful, but so does everyone else. All in all, it's better with the layout. The layout stays :razz:

[jasonmatthews]

I'm with Tony and strobe on this one :(
If you don't like the track and insist on changing it, why not use a different track if you think its wrong....

As previously said, what your saying is the barriers are not to do with cutting anymore, but changing the track, which I can't agree with.....:shrug:

But, as is the way of these things, if I don't like it, i don't have to use it, which is what I have done since these were introduced :)

[SamH]

Hmm.. wondering if I just need to type in big bold capital letters. There is a problem with the default track, which this layout resolves.

I don't know if it's a physics coding problem (which I suspect is the case) or if it's simply a combination of different factors - mass, speed and curb - but the default track is a hazard. It's unpredictable and it's dangerous. It would be altered if it were real life because it would be a liability.

[SamH]

But, as is the way of these things, if I don't like it, i don't have to use it, which is what I have done since these were introduced :)
For the sake of clarity, layouts have been a part of the CTRA servers since the first day they were launched as the STCC public server tiered system in December last year. They were there because they were used in the STCC league. If any particular layouts were ever excluded at any given instance in time since then, it was an error that has since been resolved.

[Swiss_Tony]

I am still against the editing of a track that changes the traditional flow just for the sake of it, but I will concede that this particular chicane has big problems and I'd make an exception. It does seem to have some sort of physics error and can throw you up in the air at random even though it seems the same line is taken each time. I know it has ruined many good races simply because it's impossible to predict. Sounds like I'm doing a u turn here (which I probably am) but I didn't realise that this particular chicane was being discussed (should read the thread again)

Anyhow, I'm still adamant that cones, hay, tyres and prams etc. should be kept off the black and grey stuff in general. I think I saw a lone cone sitting on a rumple strip one night at Blackwood, I couldn't believe it :smileypul

[SamH]

hehe! If I'm giving the impression that we're adding bits to tracks just for grins then that's my error. It really isn't the case. All of the additions we've made to tracks have been specifically for the purposes of either reducing the risk of unpredictable accidents or to prevent cutting. None of what we've added has been for any other reason.

Some of the anti-cutting configs do need attention, to reduce the number of objects required to achieve the "cut block". During the downtime between Patch X and our relaunch, this is one of the things we have on our list to address.

[Tomi]

Maybe I'm being a bit naive on this, but when I join a public server running (in this case) FE2, I basically expect it to be the FE2 I know. By all means use objects to prohibit corner cutting, but I'm just not keen on the idea of using them to radically transform a corner or chicane.

CTRA admins do what they want in their servers. period.

If you want to race the FE2 track without those additions, just join another server. It is as simple as that :nod:

By the way, adding a few tires to sligthly modify a track, or adding a chicane doesn't make it an autocross/slalom track. There are plenty of examples of real tracks where chicane are added regularly with tires to cope with safety issues, for example when the cars are too fast in a particular area and because safety requirements have been raised since the build of the track.

[STROBE]

Well, two things here.. firstly, Becky is entirely right. The track is the track. It's up to you to negotiate it. The tyres/barriers were there first and didn't move. As a racing driver, you have to meet the challenge, just as everyone else on track with you must.
Agreed, I wasn't trying to claim that I had any disadvantage compared to anyone else. Like I said, I'm just not that keen on going beyond the principle of blocking cutting by changing corners. To me, the track is the black bit with green on each side as Eric intended, and anything put on it is an obstruction that shouldn't be there.

Secondly, the purpose of this particular chicane layout (FE2) is to resolve a problem with the structure of the default track. You cannot negotiate that chicane reliably. It is a hazard. The layout we've added to that chicane makes the chicane more predictable. You have to slow down, but so does everyone else, and you have to be more careful, but so does everyone else. All in all, it's better with the layout. The layout stays :razz:
Well yes, it turns it into a more thorough chicane. Maybe the way it should have been. Still doesn't mean I'm keen on the idea, because that's not the line the tarmac takes - or maybe I just feel like being awkward today. :razz:

CTRA admins do what they want in their servers. period.
Never said they couldn't or expected otherwise. No harm in discussing the pros and cons of their decisions though. A "go somewhere else if you don't like it" attitude is particularly counter-productive imho.

[Tomi]

Never said they couldn't or expected otherwise. No harm in discussing the pros and cons of their decisions though. A "go somewhere else if you don't like it" attitude is particularly counter-productive imho.

It's not about discussing the pros and cons, or being counter-productive. But you just shouldn't "expect it to be the FE2 I know" when joining a random public server. There is no LFSetiquette which says that tracks shouldn't be altered in any way.

[Becky Rose]

A "go somewhere else if you don't like it" attitude is particularly counter-productive imho.
I do hope we've never given that impression. We do try to accomodate our players and have made a significant number of concessions since we started up.

In this case, it's simply that the particular chicane in question is unpredictable and ruins races. A watched a league race last night where a guy I view as one of LFS' finest came unstuck at that chicane and by pure chance his championship attempt is under threat now.

The corner isn't safe, should this be a real track it would surely be modified. LFS doesn't give us the tools to physically alter the track and send in the bulldozers, but we can do what we've done ... Which is to reposition the apex of the chicane entry by placing a few hay bales down. Anyone remember Woodcote at Silverstone in Formula One? Or Hockenheim..?

Chicane alterations are a part of any race tracks life. In the case of FE2 we've modified the chicane to remove a safety issue, and I personally believe that we get better racing from it at a result.

I'm not the only one either, because this chicane has been discussed before - more than once - and we've already reached a popular concenssus on it.

I do appreciate that in the migration from STCC to CTRA that the layout got messed up for a while, and I appologise for that.

[Jakg]

In this case, it's simply that the particular chicane in question is unpredictable and ruins races. A watched a league race last night where a guy I view as one of LFS' finest came unstuck at that chicane and by pure chance his championship attempt is under threat now.
i do hope you mean me Becky :P

It's a bastard of a corner, all about smashing on the kerbs, imo i often enter with a little drift and use the throttle (was driving the FXO) to pull the nose round on the tarmac, but if it did my tail could clip the tyres. It's better with something to slow you down or to absorb the impact (ie a bale infront of the tyres)

[word.]

Is it just me, or do bails seem to be more like bricks in LFS?

[Becky Rose]

Hit anything at 120mph and tell me it was a soft target...

[Dru]

edited

[Dru]

edited

[Becky Rose]

I'm sorry. I've modified my quote to be more sympathetic to your plight. Sorry to have caused offense.

[Dru]

I'm sorry. I've modified my quote to be more sympathetic to your plight. Sorry to have caused offense.

edited post, no reference.

[col]

Is it just me, or do bails seem to be more like bricks in LFS?

Bails are f*****g big, f*****g heavy and f*****g hard !
you know they even build houses with them (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=building+with+straw+bales) these days - just like bricks :)

[csurdongulos]

while I agree that the fe green chicane is difficult to get right every lap, it is nowhere unpredictable, nor is the track. if you get thrown off a lot, you either hit the tyres, or you got a bad setup. my xrt behaved just fine over the curbs there at around and above 150 kph.

I am glad the stcc race did not have the layout, but for public racing it is a good idea. however the only thing I would have changed (this is based on the layout which almost made it to the stcc race, i don't know what layout is currently used on ctra servers) is narrowing the entry to have speeds around 120. putting extra tyres at the exit (as shown in one of the earlier posts) is no good. you have the extra run-off area, why can't you use it then? I would have liked an answer from Becky and the DRB on this topic back then, but I never got it.

[Becky Rose]

That's more an internal STCC issue, the league layout was proposed and thrown out, it's very different to the public layout which does indeed only effect the entry to the chicane, i'm not sure of the speed but it is greatly reduced.

[Slopi]

Anyone mind posting a screenshot of the current chicane? It's no biggie if no one has one, but I figure it might be a good idea just so people reading the forums can see what's currently in place, since we have pictures of everything that was in place before this.

Thanks in advance if someone posts these :thumb:

[jasonmatthews]

Ok, sorry for sounding a bit of an arse in my ealier post, but when I went to the track it must have been the bad layout, as it really was awful.I can see it has changed now and is better :) But also I haven't had the physics issues mentioned meself on original track so that's why I didn't understand, again sorry :x

[LordBlaster]

i´ve raced the new layout this night and i must say it makes the track
safer then it was before.... and people start using their heads before
they try to overtake you there...

the only thing what was a bit annoying for me was, when sparky dave
pulverized my new track record by almost half a second :D

overall i like the layout, it makes sense, it should stay there....